I'm trying to type w/ Dvorak. I have a toggle layer on my keyboards for qwerty for games, too lazy to remap every key for every game.Can someone convince me that dvorak doesn't make any diffirince in typing. Cause everything is so hard when using dvorak!
Are dvorak or Colemak is better than qwerty?Better for what? I suspect top typing speed after mastery is probably at most 10–15% different. But they require a whole lot less finger/hand movement, and avoid a lot of awkward combinations which are common in QWERTY.
But i largely disagree with the premise that rearranging letters gets more ergonomic. Splitting, Tenting and not Staggering helps much more (for me).
I tried all the mentions layouts for a while. I gave them all a fair shot. Dvorak, Workman, Colemak... In the end none of them where worth it for me
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Second i largely disagree with the idea, that more Homerow usage is better.
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So yeah, i can see where the ideas for all these layouts come from. But i largely disagree with the premise that rearranging letters gets more ergonomic.
I wonder if you really did give them a fair shot, or whether you gave up too early before you had chance become fluent. Changing your layout takes time and if you keep chopping and changing I can't see how you would given yourself chance to become comfortable with a chosen one.
You make some valid points about the problems of switching layouts... RDP and the like. But your claim that having more frequent keys in the home positions isn't easier seems absurd to me. If you think it's better to have such keys in *harder* to reach places, presumably you think A and S are badly positioned in Qwerty because you can actually type those two common letters rather easily, directly from the home position.
It's fair enough if you think changing layout isn't worth the effort overall, but I think claiming there is no advantage to be gained from using optimized layouts Colemak, Dvorak, etc, is really just playing a psychological trick on yourself to trying to justify your decision to stick with Qwerty.
I already touch typing dvorak with an average of 70-90 WPM but the one thing that I didn't like is that the dvorak uses too much of right finger. How about the colemak?
But i largely disagree with the premise that rearranging letters gets more ergonomic. Splitting, Tenting and not Staggering helps much more (for me).
I think a lot of it depends on what shape your hands are in. Now, I can literally feel the difference between colemak and qwerty. Yet, when my hands were in better shape, qwerty did not cause any noticeable fatigue. However, a more ergonomic design of the board itself is a good thing.
As for the OP I'd encourage the use of colemak over qwerty. I found dvorak too different.
Fair enough. I sure didn't spend as much time with alternate Layouts as i did with qwerty. But, the ergonomically benefits off most other layouts have not been proven to me in a way that would make me really understand the benefits. Most studies that have been done where either to short or measured making assumptions what should be better ergonomically (such as more home row is better, or alternating hands is preferred).Actually I largely agree that Qwerty E isn't terrible, although I'd still say home row is to be preferred. The worse culprit I think is T. It's the 2nd most common letter, but in an awkward diagonal position from the home row. And the fact that J and K are in the of two best keys on the keyboard seems like a crime against ergonomics!
I don't say that making it harder to reach most used letters is a good thing. I just find that, for myself, the homerow is not always the single best place for letters on a "standard" keyboard. For example, in qwerty, i think the position of "e" is really good. It's one up for the middle finger (the longest finger) and positioned in a way the homerow would be on a horizontally staggered keyboard. I find that more relaxing to use than "e" at the homerow.
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In the end, it's all personal preference. I can see why people choose alternate layouts, and am happy i don't have to :D
So whats better did you say dvorak or colema ?Fair enough. I sure didn't spend as much time with alternate Layouts as i did with qwerty. But, the ergonomically benefits off most other layouts have not been proven to me in a way that would make me really understand the benefits. Most studies that have been done where either to short or measured making assumptions what should be better ergonomically (such as more home row is better, or alternating hands is preferred).Actually I largely agree that Qwerty E isn't terrible, although I'd still say home row is to be preferred. The worse culprit I think is T. It's the 2nd most common letter, but in an awkward diagonal position from the home row. And the fact that J and K are in the of two best keys on the keyboard seems like a crime against ergonomics!
I don't say that making it harder to reach most used letters is a good thing. I just find that, for myself, the homerow is not always the single best place for letters on a "standard" keyboard. For example, in qwerty, i think the position of "e" is really good. It's one up for the middle finger (the longest finger) and positioned in a way the homerow would be on a horizontally staggered keyboard. I find that more relaxing to use than "e" at the homerow.
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In the end, it's all personal preference. I can see why people choose alternate layouts, and am happy i don't have to :D
Another thing to bear in mind with alternative layouts, is not just that the keys are in easier-to-reach positions, but also most layouts make an effort to have easier common bigrams. Bigrams like LO and ED are common but awkward in Qwerty. Colemak in particular is very good in this respect.
My personal experience is that learning a better layout is easily worth it overall, although I do recognize the real barriers and problems that stand in the way for some. For me, it was several weeks of pain during the learning stage, but I see it as a big gain for the rest of my life. It's an investment. The end result is, instead of feeling like the keyboard is working against you, it is pleasurable and comfortable to use at last!
So whats better did you say dvorak or colema ?See, that's the Problem. None of both is better or worse. They focus on different aspects they want to improve. Dvorak is for example heavily modified with the english in Mind. So as a German user, all the effort to optimise the layout are worthless. There is a German Dvorak, but thats even less supported than standard Dvorak.
So whats better did you say dvorak or colemak ?
tl;dr ¶ No. They're designed for different use cases.They are all designed for the same use: typing English words.
....i largely disagree with the idea, that more Homerow usage is better. With all layouts optimised for homerow usage, i find my fingers get cramped really fast. The overall movement qwerty requires is something i do enjoy and my handy seem to do so to. But this is personal preference.This is "getting used to". You are apparently not used to typing "home row based". To see what is ergonomically better, you'd have to type both Qwerty and Dvorak for a longer period and THEN compare.
After all that, i use a mac, with a windows vm on it. Both productive with a microsoft keyboard. So any remappings need to be done through the os. Adding Layouts to mac is rather cumbersome and there aren't many readily available. And if you find the one you want, getting correct mappings in the VM is a gamble. Plus modifier remapping simply doesn't work, so no caps lock remap. On Top of that i use RDP most of the day on hundreds of Servers. So Mac to VM to RDP your almost guaranteed that your keyboard layout gets lost. It's the same with key combos. The "\" e.g. is cmd-shift-7 on the Mac, AltGr-ß in the VM. Parallels trys using mac combos in the VM, so technically both work (mostly). The RDP Session is all over the place and confused about all that. Same goes with keyboard layouts.Fair enough. If you use VMs, RDP, SSH and on, using Qwerty is the easier solution.
Adding to that, my job requires me to work on dozens of computers a day. All of them with qwerty. This makes transitioning harder and no one would be able to work on my machine anymore.Fair enough. You could bring you your layout on a USB-stick, or carry a hardware programmed keyboard with you, but true, if you are one of those people who work on many computers, sticking to Qwerty is easier.
But i largely disagree with the premise that rearranging letters gets more ergonomic.Is your statement "all layouts are equally ergonomic" or is it "Qwerty is the most ergonomic layout there is"? An easy way to test the first statement would be to arange the letters even worse than Qwerty..... Like this layout, the worst one possible, according to the Carpalx website: (http://i.imgur.com/3aKo29r.png)
Dvorak is for example heavily modified with the english in Mind. So as a German user, all the effort to optimise the layout are worthless. There is a German Dvorak, but thats even less supported than standard Dvorak.Well.... according the AdNW-layout-analysis (which you may or may not agree with), The letter placement in Dvorak is better for German than it is for English. And we think that AdNW does even better, in both languages. Our analysis summed up is:
Second i largely disagree with the idea, that more Homerow usage is better. With all layouts optimised for homerow usage, i find my fingers get cramped really fast. The overall movement qwerty requires is something i do enjoy and my handy seem to do so to. But this is personal preference.
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I just ordered a atreus today. So I'll soon be able to hardware program layouts. Since the 40% staggered layout will need some relearning anyways, I'm thinking about going with another layout... Im really impressed by the in depth and knowledgeable input we got here. The atreus should rule most reasons to sat with qwerty out. In the end there is no one easy answer for everyone. I really am looking forward to give a alternative layout a shot in another environment, meaning another keyboard. ..Go with the dvorak cause pietergen said it will be best for germany
And because of dvorak I can't seem to play games again cause of dvorak.
Hello guys What do you guys think? I'm a dvorak typer but I don't know if changing to dvorak makes an improvement on me. And because of dvorak I can't seem to play games again cause of dvorak. Are dvorak or Colemak is better than qwerty?
If you are an Indonesian (which your name suggests) and type a lot in Indonesian, then Dvorak is actually worse than QWERTY. A few years ago, I ran carpalx using text from Indonesian Wikipedia as input resulting in that conclusion. So I decided to learn Colemak instead., but
But why do people report lower word per minute results with all layout but qwerty ? I read the threads on GH and it seems that all the people that tried dvorak or colemak they type slower than in qwerty ? Why is that so? Why do we still type faster in qwerty ? This doesnt get out of my head.I think it's because pretty much everyone typed on QWERTY long before they typed on Dvorak.
I mean, if the end result is to type slower than before than I dont want to switch to a new layout. Whats the advantage of dvorak and colemak if they are not faster than qwerty ?
But why do people report lower word per minute results with all layout but qwerty ? I read the threads on GH and it seems that all the people that tried dvorak or colemak they type slower than in qwerty ? Why is that so? Why do we still type faster in qwerty ? This doesnt get out of my head.
I mean, if the end result is to type slower than before than I dont want to switch to a new layout. Whats the advantage of dvorak and colemak if they are not faster than qwerty ?
I'm trying to type w/ Dvorak. I have a toggle layer on my keyboards for qwerty for games, too lazy to remap every key for every game.
im practicing dvorak and usually when i want to game i'll just switch windows input mode to QWERTY so WASD acts like normal.
And because of dvorak I can't seem to play games again cause of dvorak.
This is sometimes a problem for me but it doesn't take too long to map the keys to dvorak. Usually I just have a key combination to switch between qwerty and dvorak (such as alt+shift) but when that doesn't work in games I just remap the keys.
What is this curl dh colemak mod?All about Mod-DH https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/ (https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/), and on the same link there is also a link to Curl-DH. Both are modifiaction to Colemak layout.
Curl-DH is for ISO right? and Mod-DH is for ansi right?
I love the layout but I don't know about the angle mod
I'm planning on buying an ergodox which one should I choose from the mod DH? cause they seems to be so much option on the ANSI version
Hello guys What do you guys think? I'm a dvorak typer but I don't know if changing to dvorak makes an improvement on me. And because of dvorak I can't seem to play games again cause of dvorak. Are dvorak or Colemak is better than qwerty?I learnt to touchtype with colemak - if I have to learn a new skill, I gotta do it in the best way I possibly can. And, if you do touchtype already, on dvorak - simply continue doing so. With QWERTY your wrists would be destroyed - your fingers move too unnaturally.
loving colemak, after 3 months i type 75wpm, my hands don't hurt, im using all fingers evenly, and i really don't feel a need to use a ergo board except for my Atreus when i travel.Yep I'm loving colemak too. I'm in 3 weeks now and I type 55wpm and my fingers doesn't even hurt anymore
Hello guys What do you guys think? I'm a dvorak typer but I don't know if changing to dvorak makes an improvement on me. And because of dvorak I can't seem to play games again cause of dvorak. Are dvorak or Colemak is better than qwerty?I learnt to touchtype with colemak - if I have to learn a new skill, I gotta do it in the best way I possibly can. And, if you do touchtype already, on dvorak - simply continue doing so. With QWERTY your wrists would be destroyed - your fingers move too unnaturally.
I will admit that I'm still on the fence of returning to Colemak or going with Dvorak, but I do enjoy shortcuts.
Also look into Workman, that's what I use. It's similar to Colemak, which is better than Dvorak IMO.
Properties valued in single-finger or two-finger typing are completely different from what's valued in 10-finger touch typing. For instance, focus on the home row is counterproductive, when typing with one or two fingers (or a stylus or eye stare). Colemak's focus on usage of adjacent fingers (aka rolling) doesn't make sense either, if you don't type with any adjacent fingers.
There are layouts for one-finger/stylus typing—based on Fitts' law—such as OPTI, FITALY or something from IBM. I have yet to see a convincing two-thumb-centric input method though.
However, my recommendation is to go beyond keyboards on surfaces with sliding/gesture support. For example, DreymaR from the Colemak forum advocates the usage of MessagEase.
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much
my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak
I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much
my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak
I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much
my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak
I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much
my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak
I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?
BEAKL (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_layouts#BEAKL_.282016.29) and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/QhhJkV8M)). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:Show Image(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Isi9OZSgK7ZMFAS7zGCrXkeeet4X_sHHjbzo77OlJ2atZAozOPFTNj0qExoIYs69Tl_-rBXfReLhwY0=w1488-h1019)
In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.
BEAKL (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_layouts#BEAKL_.282016.29) and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/QhhJkV8M)). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:Show Image(http://www.googledrive.com/host/0BzsqVyNw2UrAOUp5ZjhzbkZqdHM)
In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.
I can't see the picture that you linked and where can I read about MTGAP?
Y P O U J K D L C W
I N E A ; M H T S R
Q Z < > ? B F G V X
y p o u j k d l c w
i n e a , m h t s r
q z / . : b f g v x
BEAKL (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_layouts#BEAKL_.282016.29) and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/QhhJkV8M)). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:Show Image(http://www.googledrive.com/host/0BzsqVyNw2UrAOUp5ZjhzbkZqdHM)
In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.
I can't see the picture that you linked and where can I read about MTGAP?
Updated image link.
MTGAP evolved from this blog (https://mathematicalmulticore.wordpress.com/the-keyboard-layout-project/#comment-4976). This is the final iteration as used on patorjk's layout-analyzer:Code: [Select]Y P O U J K D L C W
I N E A ; M H T S R
Q Z < > ? B F G V X
y p o u j k d l c w
i n e a , m h t s r
q z / . : b f g v x
And what's the differences between the BEAKL and MTGAP? other than that BEAKL use pinky finger less than MTGAP
BEAKL 4.0
jyo.k gcmnz
hieau dstrp
q"',x wflbv
JYO:K GCMNZ
HIEAU DSTRP
Q(;)X WFLBV
Surprisingly BEAKL still outperforms vast majority of layouts in analyzers that favor more common letters on the home row.
see clear AdnW-streaks in yellowfour's Beakl layout. Now wonder, given the use of the AdnW optimizer. Interestingly, the AdnW-optimizer ranks AdnW 'proper' better than Dvorak but slightly behind Colemak, for English text. And this is exactly what stevep finds for Beakl, using his own optimizer
underestimating how comfortable the Qwerty C and M keys are, they are of almost home row quality if you use your index fingers for them.
Quoteunderestimating how comfortable the Qwerty C and M keys are, they are of almost home row quality if you use your index fingers for them.
I've always thought these are good ergonomic keys. The problem is they aren't great for optimizing rolls when many of the good keys are located at the home and top rows (and rightly so.)
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much
my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak
I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?
BEAKL (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_layouts#BEAKL_.282016.29) and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/QhhJkV8M)). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:Show Image(http://www.googledrive.com/host/0BzsqVyNw2UrAOUp5ZjhzbkZqdHM)
In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.