[IC] Alps DCS Infinity mods kit

[jdcarpe]

... OR ...


We could use hasu's 60% Alps PCB, and make our own plate for it which uses Costar stabilizers, like this:


"Infinity Hacker" layout

[nubbinator]

... OR ...


We could use hasu's 60% Alps PCB, and make our own plate for it which uses Costar stabilizers, like this:

Show Image

"Infinity Hacker" layout

Yes please.  I need more 60% Alps.

[jdcarpe]

I just got some great news, friends. Melissa at SP tells me that they can mold any size key, in either DCS or DSA profile, with an Alps center mount.

6u and 6.25u DCS spacebars are possible.

[nubbinator]

I just got some great news, friends. Melissa at SP tells me that they can mold any size key, in either DCS or DSA profile, with an Alps center mount.

6u and 6.25u DCS spacebars are possible.

[jacobolus]

We could use hasu's 60% Alps PCB, and make our own plate for it which uses Costar stabilizers, like this:

You could do that. But note, you’re going to be limited to only SP keycaps for stabilized keys in that case. So you’d better coordinate keycaps + plate + PCB and make sure the people buying in understand that they can’t use old Alps caps with it for enter and left shift. Also, why not just buy an Infinity board in that case? You get basically the same result, the only difference is what chip you’re using. If the idea is to use hasu’s firmware, I think he got it working on an Infinity board.

Anyway, much better, assuming you can afford to wait a few weeks would be to use plate holes for Matias’s new stabilizer clips/wires/inserts, which will work with either type of keycap.

I should email Matias again; he said he’d mail me some samples, but I think he forgot about it in between all the other stuff he has to take care of.

[vivalarevolución]

I think I should make up a website just about the Alps stabilizer question, because even people who have been hanging out at geekhack for long enough that they should have seen this explained in detail dozens of times on numerous threads still seem to be utterly confused about it.

Never heard of the problem until here and I'm so glad that your attitude is really helping me understand it. /sarcasm.

Looks like you can just take the costar stabilizers, cut them down, and they'll work.

Could you link us poor plebes who can't possible comprehend your help?

Well done.

[jdcarpe]

@jacobolus: the purpose of the proposed modifier set being offered here is exactly for the Infinity. And I need feedback from people who are interested in a) handwiring, b) hasu's 60% PCB, or c) the Infinity as to what type of plate they would like. It's much cheaper to order several plates, than to buy a one-off.

Since standard layouts are now an option, I would like to know if people would be interested in buying a plate in Infinity Hacker, Infinity Standard, ANSI 125, or some other layout.

[nubbinator]

I prefer a more standard layout like ANSI, but would be fine with something else as long as there are plans to support the layout.

[jdcarpe]

I prefer a more standard layout like ANSI, but would be fine with something else as long as there are plans to support the layout.

[nubbinator]

Looks good to me.

[jacobolus]

@jacobolus: the purpose of the proposed modifier set being offered here is exactly for the Infinity. And I need feedback from people who are interested in a) handwiring, b) hasu's 60% PCB, or c) the Infinity as to what type of plate they would like. It's much cheaper to order several plates, than to buy a one-off.

Sure, I understand that.

What I don’t understand is why someone would want hasu’s PCB + one of your proposed plates (with the Infinity layout you showed before), instead of just the Infinity kit. Seems like the two are almost identical for practical purposes for someone who wants to use Alps switches and the keycaps under discussion in this thread.

[ideus]

@jacobolus: the purpose of the proposed modifier set being offered here is exactly for the Infinity. And I need feedback from people who are interested in a) handwiring, b) hasu's 60% PCB, or c) the Infinity as to what type of plate they would like. It's much cheaper to order several plates, than to buy a one-off.

Sure, I understand that.

What I don’t understand is why someone would want hasu’s PCB + one of your proposed plates (with the Infinity layout you showed before), instead of just the Infinity kit. Seems like the two are almost identical for practical purposes for someone who wants to use Alps switches and the keycaps under discussion in this thread.

Because of availability? or maybe it is just the product of a convoluted mind.

[njbair]

JD, what would be different between your proposed plate/PCB combo and the existing Infinity kits with the flat plate option?

[njbair]

I just got some great news, friends. Melissa at SP tells me that they can mold any size key, in either DCS or DSA profile, with an Alps center mount.

6u and 6.25u DCS spacebars are possible.

This is definitely great news! And good to know it's information you received after actually speaking to someone. A while back in this very thread I thought it was determined after speaking with SP that 6U DCS spacebars were not possible. I wonder, why the discrepancy?

[jdcarpe]

JD, what would be different between your proposed plate/PCB combo and the existing Infinity kits with the flat plate option?

Nothing at all, really. I was just showing one option that could be made. But others could be done, instead. I didn't buy an Infinity yet, but I do have one of hasu's PCBs coming to me soon. I think there is something to be said for doing something like an Alps-only PCB, without the option of MX switches. Of course, that narrows the marketability, but most boards that have both switch types as an option prioritize MX over Alps if switch locations conflict.

Infinity Hacker layout has been done, and now there is the KBP V60 Matias version in standard ANSI, so maybe something like a Pure layout with a 150 bottom row? Just thinking out loud. With Alps, the sides clip to the plate, so universal layout plates aren't an option.

[jacobolus]

I think there is something to be said for doing something like an Alps-only PCB, without the option of MX switches.

Me too, but then it’s stupid to limit it to Costar-stabilized keycaps, IMO.

[CPTBadAss]

I just got some great news, friends. Melissa at SP tells me that they can mold any size key, in either DCS or DSA profile, with an Alps center mount.

6u and 6.25u DCS spacebars are possible.

Mmmmm DCS Alps spacebar would be nice .

... OR ...


We could use hasu's 60% Alps PCB, and make our own plate for it which uses Costar stabilizers, like this:

Show Image

"Infinity Hacker" layout

That plate though. Just out of sheer curiosity, could Cherry stabilizers be used with the SP Alps caps? I'm guessing no but I guess I'm looking for some details.

[njbair]

OK so thanks to JD we know a full DCS set including a 6U spacebar is an option. That, along with Matias' current initiative to move towards providing more keycaps, I think makes Infinity Alps and other Alps-only projects such as the one JD proposed, that much more appealing. But I feel like we're drifting off track here in this thread so let's try to bring it back. How do any of these developments affect this IC?

I think the only question that remains is whether a 2.75U right shift would actually benefit anyone. Has that been resolved?

[vivalarevolución]

I think the only question that remains is whether a 2.75U right shift would actually benefit anyone. Has that been resolved?

Maybe someday it would. 

What I don�t understand is why someone would want hasu�s PCB + one of your proposed plates (with the Infinity layout you showed before), instead of just the Infinity kit. Seems like the two are almost identical for practical purposes for someone who wants to use Alps switches and the keycaps under discussion in this thread.

You're assuming that practicality is an important component of decision making for most human beings.  If there is more stuff to buy, I will buy more stuff.

[zombimuncha]

Anyway, much better, assuming you can afford to wait a few weeks would be to use plate holes for Matias’s new stabilizer clips/wires/inserts, which will work with either type of keycap.

I should email Matias again; he said he’d mail me some samples, but I think he forgot about it in between all the other stuff he has to take care of.

Yeah, my V80 ambitions are entirely dependent on Matias' magical mystery balance bars. I understand he has some custom balance bars that will connect Alps stabilizer plate clips to Costar stabilizer keycap inserts. I'd LOVE to see some photos of how it's supposed to work.

[jdcarpe]

Anyway, much better, assuming you can afford to wait a few weeks would be to use plate holes for Matias�s new stabilizer clips/wires/inserts, which will work with either type of keycap.

I should email Matias again; he said he�d mail me some samples, but I think he forgot about it in between all the other stuff he has to take care of.

Yeah, my V80 ambitions are entirely dependent on Matias' magical mystery balance bars. I understand he has some custom balance bars that will connect Alps stabilizer plate clips to Costar stabilizer keycap inserts. I'd LOVE to see some photos of how it's supposed to work.

Me too. I keep hearing about it, but I can't quite wrap my head around how it works, either.

[Matias]

Anyway, much better, assuming you can afford to wait a few weeks would be to use plate holes for Matias's new stabilizer clips/wires/inserts, which will work with either type of keycap.

I should email Matias again; he said he'd mail me some samples, but I think he forgot about it in between all the other stuff he has to take care of.

Yeah, my V80 ambitions are entirely dependent on Matias' magical mystery balance bars. I understand he has some custom balance bars that will connect Alps stabilizer plate clips to Costar stabilizer keycap inserts. I'd LOVE to see some photos of how it's supposed to work.

Me too. I keep hearing about it, but I can't quite wrap my head around how it works, either.

Interesting discussion so far -- still need to read through it all.

My plan was to have our 60% keyboard be a reference design for anyone wanting to do a universal plate & PCB that supports both Cherry and ALPS.  However, I think that may be too long to wait, so I have another idea...

Is there a universally accepted plate+PCB that fits the most popular cases?  If you can steer me to the drawings, I can modify them to simultaneously support ALPS+Cherry and then release them as a reference design for the community.

PS:  jacobolus, still have your samples on my to-do list.  Can probably send them out this week.  Sorry for the delay, lots of project-related stuff just got in the way.

[njbair]

Anyway, much better, assuming you can afford to wait a few weeks would be to use plate holes for Matias's new stabilizer clips/wires/inserts, which will work with either type of keycap.

I should email Matias again; he said he'd mail me some samples, but I think he forgot about it in between all the other stuff he has to take care of.

Yeah, my V80 ambitions are entirely dependent on Matias' magical mystery balance bars. I understand he has some custom balance bars that will connect Alps stabilizer plate clips to Costar stabilizer keycap inserts. I'd LOVE to see some photos of how it's supposed to work.

Me too. I keep hearing about it, but I can't quite wrap my head around how it works, either.

Interesting discussion so far -- still need to read through it all.

My plan was to have our 60% keyboard be a reference design for anyone wanting to do a universal plate & PCB that supports both Cherry and ALPS.  However, I think that may be too long to wait, so I have another idea...

Is there a universally accepted plate+PCB that fits the most popular cases?  If you can steer me to the drawings, I can modify them to simultaneously support ALPS+Cherry and then release them as a reference design for the community.

PS:  jacobolus, still have your samples on my to-do list.  Can probably send them out this week.  Sorry for the delay, lots of project-related stuff just got in the way.

The Infinity Standard layout PCB & plate already supports Alps & MX, and it fits in a standard 60% case.

[Matias]

Is there a universally accepted plate+PCB that fits the most popular cases?  If you can steer me to the drawings, I can modify them to simultaneously support ALPS+Cherry and then release them as a reference design for the community.

The Infinity Standard layout PCB & plate already supports Alps & MX, and it fits in a standard 60% case.

Drawings?

[jdcarpe]

Is there a universally accepted plate+PCB that fits the most popular cases?  If you can steer me to the drawings, I can modify them to simultaneously support ALPS+Cherry and then release them as a reference design for the community.

The Infinity Standard layout PCB & plate already supports Alps & MX, and it fits in a standard 60% case.

Drawings?

They are open source.

https://github.com/kiibohd/case

[Matias]

Is there a universally accepted plate+PCB that fits the most popular cases?  If you can steer me to the drawings, I can modify them to simultaneously support ALPS+Cherry and then release them as a reference design for the community.

The Infinity Standard layout PCB & plate already supports Alps & MX, and it fits in a standard 60% case.

Drawings?

They are open source.

https://github.com/kiibohd/case

Perfect... 

Are there 2D files of the plate & PCB in DWG or DXF format?

I'm just seeing STEP 3D files.

[jdcarpe]

Perfect... 

Are there 2D files of the plate & PCB in DWG or DXF format?

I'm just seeing STEP 3D files.

Here, I converted it to a 2D DXF and attached it to this post.

[Matias]

Okay here is how you do it... (DXF attached)

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs, and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs anyway.

[jdcarpe]

Okay here is how you do it...

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs.


(Attachment Link)

Very cool, thank you, sir. When will these new clips and spring bars be available for purchase?

[Matias]

Okay here is how you do it...

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs.


(Attachment Link)

Very cool, thank you, sir. When will these new clips and spring bars be available for purchase?

"Soon"   but I have samples now, and can send you a few if you PM me your address info.

Full assembled, it looks like this...

[jacobolus]

Do you have pictures of the inserts that fit into MX-mount keycaps? Are those just the same as regular costar inserts, or are they new?

Will you be selling Alps-style rectangle-mount and/or MX-style cross-mount keycap inserts to go with the new stabilizers?

[Badwrench]

Dang, lots going on while I was away.  Good    I have added a large rt shift to the OP render since it appears that we could gather more interest in this set with the ability to cover a "Poker" layout. 

I have been working on pricing with SP and as it stands here is the pricing without a 2.75x right shift key (I added it to the OP render based on all that has been going on lately to see if it adds much to the pricing).  I am worried that we are starting to get where we were before with too much going on, but we will see.  Pricing has a small amount added to cover shipping to me, but does not include paypal fees or shipping from me.  Also, this does not incorporate the custom logo costs as those are being generously donated if the set sells.

25 sets                   $59.15 per set
50 sets                   $42.85 per set
74 sets                   $37.50 per set
100 sets                 $34.88 per set

[njbair]

Okay here is how you do it... (DXF attached)

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs, and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs anyway.


(Attachment Link)

I'm no wire stab expert, but couldn't you put the clip slots on the top side for one of the switch types? In that case you could even fit clip slots for the spacebar. See:



In this mockup I only did the spacebar but you could do it with the others as well.

[HoffmanMyster]

Okay here is how you do it...

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs.


(Attachment Link)

Very cool, thank you, sir. When will these new clips and spring bars be available for purchase?

"Soon"   but I have samples now, and can send you a few if you PM me your address info.

Full assembled, it looks like this...


(Attachment Link)

I'm an Alps noob, so I have a question about this design.  Are Alps stabilizers required to be in a different position (what I would describe as "down", or pushed toward the bottom of a switch)?  I can't imagine that there is a need for them to be "narrower" or closer together, but that's instead simply to give another placement to make the vertically-moved holes, correct?  Basically, I'm wondering why they can't share stabilizer mounts points.    Hope my wording isn't too strange.      Thanks!

[jdcarpe]

I'm an Alps noob, so I have a question about this design.  Are Alps stabilizers required to be in a different position (what I would describe as "down", or pushed toward the bottom of a switch)?  I can't imagine that there is a need for them to be "narrower" or closer together, but that's instead simply to give another placement to make the vertically-moved holes, correct?  Basically, I'm wondering why they can't share stabilizer mounts points.    Hope my wording isn't too strange.      Thanks!

Yes, the Alps stabilizer inserts which go into the keycaps have an OPEN slot design, and require the stabilizer bar to be on "south" of the switch. In contrast to the Costar stabilizer inserts for MX, which have a CLOSED slot.

[njbair]

Okay here is how you do it...

1)  Use ALPS plate clips for both ALPS and Cherry.

2)  The outside clips are positioned for Cherry.  The inside clips are positioned for ALPS.

3)  For the Spacebar, I only put the clips for Cherry, since the plate is a little too short to support ALPS stabs and all ALPS spacebars currently in production use Cherry stabs.


(Attachment Link)

Very cool, thank you, sir. When will these new clips and spring bars be available for purchase?

"Soon"   but I have samples now, and can send you a few if you PM me your address info.

Full assembled, it looks like this...


(Attachment Link)

I'm an Alps noob, so I have a question about this design.  Are Alps stabilizers required to be in a different position (what I would describe as "down", or pushed toward the bottom of a switch)?  I can't imagine that there is a need for them to be "narrower" or closer together, but that's instead simply to give another placement to make the vertically-moved holes, correct?  Basically, I'm wondering why they can't share stabilizer mounts points.    Hope my wording isn't too strange.      Thanks!

Did you happen to see my spacebar mockup in the post right above yours? I think you're right that the horizontal spacing is more a matter of fitting both very close together. But AFAIK all stabs are vertically centered on the cap, so if you flip either one (Alps or Cherry) to the "top" side, you can still fit both without interfering with one another.

[Matias]

Do you have pictures of the inserts that fit into MX-mount keycaps? Are those just the same as regular costar inserts, or are they new?

They are regular Costar inserts.

Will you be selling Alps-style rectangle-mount and/or MX-style cross-mount keycap inserts to go with the new stabilizers?

We'll be selling both.

I'm no wire stab expert, but couldn't you put the clip slots on the top side for one of the switch types? In that case you could even fit clip slots for the spacebar. See:

(Attachment Link)

In this mockup I only did the spacebar but you could do it with the others as well.

That approach would work for Costar stabs.  For ALPS stabs, it would allow you to mount the spacebar upside-down.

I'm an Alps noob, so I have a question about this design.  Are Alps stabilizers required to be in a different position (what I would describe as "down", or pushed toward the bottom of a switch)?

If you're using a standard ALPS stabilizer wire, yes, they have to be lower.

However, we've designed a new stabilizer wire for ALPS that can occupy the same plate clip position as Cherry.  If you use that Cherry-style ALPS wire, then you only need one set of clip holes in the plate.  I included the extra set of holes to allow for backwards compatibility with traditional ALPS stabilizer wires.

I can't imagine that there is a need for them to be "narrower" or closer together, but that's instead simply to give another placement to make the vertically-moved holes, correct?  Basically, I'm wondering why they can't share stabilizer mounts points.    Hope my wording isn't too strange.      Thanks!

The Cherry clips have to be in a certain horizontal position, because the stab wires curve around the switch.  The ALPS stab wires are straight, so they can be positioned wherever there's available space.  You can see this in the photo I posted earlier -- see below...

Full assembled, it looks like this...


(Attachment Link)

[njbair]

I'm no wire stab expert, but couldn't you put the clip slots on the top side for one of the switch types? In that case you could even fit clip slots for the spacebar. See:

(Attachment Link)

In this mockup I only did the spacebar but you could do it with the others as well.

That approach would work for Costar stabs.  For ALPS stabs, it would allow you to mount the spacebar upside-down.

Well I know the Cherry stab clips mount right in the middle, and they're cruciform so you should just be able to turn the inserts around 180 degrees. If that's not the way Matias clips work, then leave them on the bottom and put the [...oh geez, I apologize in advance for this one...] cherry on top.

[Matias]

I'm no wire stab expert, but couldn't you put the clip slots on the top side for one of the switch types? In that case you could even fit clip slots for the spacebar. See:

(Attachment Link)

In this mockup I only did the spacebar but you could do it with the others as well.

That approach would work for Costar stabs.  For ALPS stabs, it would allow you to mount the spacebar upside-down.

Well I know the Cherry stab clips mount right in the middle, and they're cruciform so you should just be able to turn the inserts around 180 degrees. If that's not the way Matias clips work, then leave them on the bottom and put the [...oh geez, I apologize in advance for this one...] cherry on top.

Yes, you only need one set of Cherry stab clips -- you can position them on top or on the bottom.

However, if you position them on top, then using them for an ALPS stab necessitates that keycap being upside-down.

[zombimuncha]

To attach SP keycaps to an Alps board, would it not be simpler to use the existing Alps plate clips with a custom wire that's slightly "longer" horizontally and "less tall" vertically?

[Matias]

To attach SP keycaps to an Alps board, would it not be simpler to use the existing Alps plate clips with a custom wire that's slightly "longer" horizontally and "less tall" vertically?

(Attachment Link)

Yes, that approach is easier, and that is the approach we're using to allow SP caps to work on our existing ALPS keyboards.

However, if your goal is to design a single PCB+plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, then the approach I described below is the way to do it.

[zombimuncha]

To attach SP keycaps to an Alps board, would it not be simpler to use the existing Alps plate clips with a custom wire that's slightly "longer" horizontally and "less tall" vertically?

(Attachment Link)

Yes, that approach is easier, and that is the approach we're using to allow SP caps to work on our existing ALPS keyboards.

However, if you're goal is to design a single PCB+plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, then the approach I described below is the way to do it.

 
Best news all week!

So Badwrench, based on this I think it's a good idea to include the 2.75u RShift in this set.

[nubbinator]

To attach SP keycaps to an Alps board, would it not be simpler to use the existing Alps plate clips with a custom wire that's slightly "longer" horizontally and "less tall" vertically?

(Attachment Link)

Yes, that approach is easier, and that is the approach we're using to allow SP caps to work on our existing ALPS keyboards.

However, if your goal is to design a single PCB+plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, then the approach I described below is the way to do it.

Sounds like we need to have a wire buy or see about getting wires with the kit so the caps can be used on multiple keyboards

Now I just need to make my adapters work with the square insert stabilizers as well as the cruciform they work with now.

[Badwrench]

Ok, this is it guys and girls, the Final sets.  I decided to break the kit into 2 sets as the pricing was just inching too high.  I am submitting the final render to SP after I post this for pricing and will update as soon as I get the numbers. 

[njbair]

I think this is a wise way to break things up without overcomplicating the buy. Nice work.

[nubbinator]

I think this is a wise way to break things up without overcomplicating the buy. Nice work.

It also helps with the cost.

[Badwrench]

I think this is a wise way to break things up without overcomplicating the buy. Nice work.

It also helps with the cost.

Ok, here is the pricing: 
Once again, I have added a small amount to the initial costs to cover shipping to me, but they still don't include the paypal and shipping from me.

Infinity Kit
25 sets                   $59.16 per set
50 sets                   $43.22 per set
75 sets                   $37.78 per set
100 sets                 $35.36 per set
 
Optional Modifier Kit
25 sets                   $13.49 per set
50 sets                   $8.99 per set
75 sets                   $7.65 per set
100 sets                 $6.77 per set


Ideally, if we can get to the 50 MOQ tier, the pricing will get much better.  I am working on setting up a way to do a Massdrop style of entry for the GB so that we can track where we are on MOQ and help people that are on the fence in case they are worried about the buy not making the tier they want. 

[vivalarevolución]

Let's get to 50!

[jdcarpe]

Yeah, just set 50 as MOQ. If it doesn't get to 50, it doesn't go at all.

[zombimuncha]

And persuade intelli78 and Elrick to hype it up!