Author Topic: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%  (Read 63181 times)

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Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #200 on: Mon, 18 May 2015, 21:02:19 »
I noticed the link on your website now links to MX blue and Matias Quiet switches. Is this correct?

Yeah, because I haven't been able to source clears, I've changed the switches for the quiet kits over to Matias. I may change for the clicky kits too, but I have plenty of stock of cherry for the time being, so there's no rush to do this.

I can't decide which one to get. I'm now typing on MX brown, which is okay by me.
I read the Matias switches are 60g as opposed to 45g for blues, this worries me a bit, I have very slender hands.

This isn't quite right; blues are 55cN, Matias are 60, and Clears are 65. So they're right in between the existing options. A bit heavier than browns, but I don't really feel like they're hard to press or cause any fatigue.

So tell me, quiet or clicky?

Here's the thing: the only reason I even stock quiet kits is for people who work in offices where they can't make noise. It's hard to explain the feel of clicky switches with words; you really just have to try it for yourself. But IMO the quiet clicks are really just a compromise for people who can't afford to make a lot of noise.

Of course, opinions on this topic vary, but unless you've tried both kinds and already know which you'd prefer, I recommend going with the clicky switches.

Offline pepijndevos

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #201 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 02:17:43 »
Ordered.

I'll be using it at home, so I just hope my family will not hate me.

Kudos for making it easier to get than the (probably way more popular) ErgoDox.
I've been watching the Massdrop for months, and then when I'm on holiday they launch the infinity without notifying me.

Sometimes I see people make an issue about surface mount diodes, backlighting, backplates, and other varieties to mounting the switches.
I'm mildly curious what your opinion is on all that, but in the end I don't care much as long as it works well.

Did you write about the firmware somewhere that I can read?
I found this article that explains the basics: http://atreus.technomancy.us/firmware
But I'm more interested in the history and rationale.
Why did you write it, and why did you write it the way you did?
Is it based on another project, or written from scratch?
I see that parts are written in Lisp, which is super awesome, but you also mention TMK somewhere.
Is the keyboard compatible with other firmwares?

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #202 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 02:59:16 »
Ordered.

Awesome; thanks!

Sometimes I see people make an issue about surface mount diodes, backlighting, backplates, and other varieties to mounting the switches. I'm mildly curious what your opinion is on all that, but in the end I don't care much as long as it works well.

Personally I'm of the opinion that while surface-mount soldering can be easier if you have the right gear, when you're building a keyboard, you can't get around the requirement to know through-hole soldering, because that's what the switches use. So requiring surface-mount skills limits your audience to those who are more adventurous or experienced because it comes across as being more intimidating. (Whether this is true or not is an open question; I don't personally have experience with SMT, but I know enough about psychology to assert that it's irrelevant when it comes to selling kits.) I'm of the opinion that LED lighting is one of those glitzy features that looks cool and sells keyboards, but increases complexity and cost without any practical advantages. Especially with blank keycaps and with a design as small as the Atreus, it's not difficult at all for you to find the home row with your fingers simply because there are fewer *wrong* places where your fingers could be.

The Atreus supports both plate-mount and PCB-mount switches, so this isn't really an issue. I don't think it's a great idea to mount the switches directly on the PCB without a plate, but I haven't tried any keyboards that do this, so I can't speak from experience. The Atreus PCB itself has no mounting holes on it though, so it relies on the plate to hold it in place.

Did you write about the firmware somewhere that I can read?
I found this article that explains the basics: http://atreus.technomancy.us/firmware
But I'm more interested in the history and rationale.
Why did you write it, and why did you write it the way you did?
Is it based on another project, or written from scratch?
I see that parts are written in Lisp, which is super awesome, but you also mention TMK somewhere.
Is the keyboard compatible with other firmwares?

The story of the firmware is really only written out earlier in this thread, but the tl;dr is that I started with TMK because I just wanted to get something working. TMK had some issues with the low-voltage chipset that my Thinkpad uses; it would cut out and drop keystrokes occasionally, so I started writing my own firmware from scratch. That's the one that's currently recommended in the Atreus docs: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware. It's just under 200 lines of C. The code is much clearer than TMK, but it is less featureful. Reading through it (especially early revisions) could be a good way to learn how matrix-scanning works. However, once I finish my article series on the Scheme firmware (and finish coding the firmware itself), that would be a much better way to learn. I have another firmware written in Forth, but it doesn't work on AVR, the chip architecture used by every Atreus keyboard except one hand-wired prototype I built up that uses ARM.

The mainline Atreus should work with any Atmega32u4-compatible firmware as long as you supply the pinout configuration. Right now I use TMK primarily because I'm testing out a new feature: the ability to momentarily switch to L2 (shift+fn together) instead of switching to it modally. Once I get the last few bugs in this feature squashed I may begin recommending TMK for new users.

Hope that helps; let me know if you have any other questions.

Offline pepijndevos

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #203 on: Tue, 19 May 2015, 11:50:43 »
I must say I'm a bit wary about homegrown firmwares, since even a company like Truly Ergonomic can't get this right.
But as long as it registers exactly the intended number of key presses, a Lisp/Forth firmware sounds awesome.
I'd be happy to contribute to those once I get my board.

Maybe a bit OT, but why can't we have Forth on AVR?
I found a few that run on 8kb+ AVR chips like the one in the Arduino Mega.
But as far as I'm concerned, Forth is just stack based assembly, so why does that consume any RAM at all?
Maybe it's the Forth *interpreter* that consumes the memory.
BRB, writing compiler.

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #204 on: Wed, 20 May 2015, 00:28:50 »
Maybe a bit OT, but why can't we have Forth on AVR?
I found a few that run on 8kb+ AVR chips like the one in the Arduino Mega.
But as far as I'm concerned, Forth is just stack based assembly, so why does that consume any RAM at all?
Maybe it's the Forth *interpreter* that consumes the memory.
BRB, writing compiler.

Forth is very strange because it straddles the gap between interpreted and compiled languages. A Forth contains both a compiler and an interpreter, (almost like the bytecode engine of a modern VM) and you can't really change this without changing Forth itself at its very core. It's a fascinating design.

The thing is, the Forth runtime that I wrote actually runs on the AVR. It's just that as soon as you load more than a page or so worth of code into it, it runs out of memory. So it's fine on the Teensy3 ARM prototype I built with 16kb of ram, but the atmega32u4 has only 2.5kb, which just isn't enough to load enough Forth to drive the keyboard matrix. But you could maybe put a Forth on an atmega32u4 as long as the primary keyboard control was done in C, and the Forth was just there as an interactive shell for you to repl against, and call C functionality that's been exposed as Forth words. Just a random idea. Forth is a bit nicer than MicroScheme in this regard, since MicroScheme has no repl or runtime eval.

Offline pepijndevos

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #205 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 05:23:51 »
I googled around a bit, and there are some Forths that run on the atmega32u4.
They run as a bootloader and compile to flash instead of RAM.
So you do need an ISP to use it, which might not be practical for the Atreus.
http://amforth.sourceforge.net

Meanwhile I wrote enough Forth to turn on a LED. Not very impressive, but it works.
It's a repurposed Clojure program that turns Forth into AVR assembly, which can be compiled and uploaded with avrgcc and avrdude
https://github.com/pepijndevos/beauforth/tree/avr

Offline ImAWildDeer

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #206 on: Sun, 31 May 2015, 12:40:53 »
I finished building my Atreus with MX Whites a few weeks ago. I really enjoy typing on it, however I'm still very slow and struggle to hit most of my existing Vim keybindings efficiently.


WTB: Penumbra Alphas and Tsangan

Boards: HHKB | Ergodox Infinity | OG Ergodox | Atreus | Planck | WASD V2  | Whitefox | TX1800 (Coming Soon) | Kishsaver (Coming Soon)

Keysets: Penumbra | Calm Depths | GMK TA | GMK CMYW | GMK Hyperfuse (Coming Soon)

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #207 on: Mon, 01 June 2015, 03:25:48 »
Looking sharp! I've heard good things about the MX whites; maybe I'll try them out some day.

As for the trouble adjusting, just stick with it! It takes several weeks, but eventually you get the hang of it.

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #208 on: Wed, 02 September 2015, 20:45:06 »
Hello folks.

I created a survey for Atreus users here; I'm interested in hearing how people find the board, what difficulties they had during assembly, etc. Even if you self-sourced or bought a fully-assembled board, I'd like to hear your input.

  http://atreus.limequery.com/index.php/983192/lang-en

thanks,
Phil

Offline bcredbottle

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #209 on: Sun, 06 September 2015, 10:55:46 »
I just got my board. Thanks technomancy!
More

Offline gerbercj

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #210 on: Sat, 09 January 2016, 00:22:05 »
I received my kit in December and built my Atreus over the week between Christmas and New Years. I am using it full-time at work now, and it's going rather well. I'm getting quick, but am still not as efficient as on my Ducky Shine. I have been messing with the firmware, and am feeling pretty good about my layout. If folks are curious, I have a modified fork of the Quantum firmware that I'm using: https://github.com/gerbercj/qmk_firmware. It's needs to be cleaned up a bit, but overall it is working well.

Offline mathiasx

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #211 on: Sat, 09 January 2016, 08:27:54 »
Just checking in to this thread after a long time.

I still use my Atreus frequently, but it hasn't become my daily driver while I'm working. The typing tutor webapp I've used to train on it (as I had to learn my own custom layout, a modified Capewell) says that I can now average around 40wpm, which isn't quite as fast as I'd like.

I may go "full immersion" at some point and put away my other keyboard, as I'm now proficient enough to use this for coding. (Originally, I could only write emails and chat on it, but I had a very hard time with coding because I hadn't yet learn the symbols in layer 2 or where the numbers were.)

I'm also tempted to build another at some point in the future, with the PCB. Building keyboards is addicting, in its own way!

Offline Rhedone

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #212 on: Sat, 09 January 2016, 17:21:23 »
It really is an inspiring keyboard. If you build more i'm sure there are some lurkers around willing to pay handsomely to take it off your hands ;)

Offline cy384

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #213 on: Sat, 09 January 2016, 22:05:23 »
123382-0

Seeing this thread bumped up, I figure'll mention my Atreus build (which I've posted in a few other places).  I made it from matte black acrylic, and then 3D printed a bracket to add bluetooth to it.  Complete details and code on my website and more pics on imgur.  I'm still not entirely comfortable without having a paper reference of the layout, so for convenience I'm going to put together a file to have WASD print some keycaps.

A tip that may be useful to anyone else building a custom keyboard: if you use long nylon screws, you can assemble your board and then use a sharp knife to cut them flush to exactly the right size.  Also, they're soft enough not to scratch whatever surface you use the keyboard on, without adding feet.  They're readily available for cheap in black or white/translucent, and I think you can dye nylon easily to other colors.
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 January 2016, 22:13:33 by cy384 »

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #214 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 00:45:57 »
Seeing this thread bumped up, I figure'll mention my Atreus build (which I've posted in a few other places).

Wow, that looks really sharp; good work. The stripe of yellow is a nice touch.

I noticed on your blog post that you mentioned being annoyed by not having easy enough access to the arrows. Normally I never use the arrows, but I started hacking on a game in my free time that needed them, so I created an alternate layout that puts them on the fn layer at the expense of removing a few symbols.


     !    @     up     {    }        ||     pgup    7     8     9    *
     #  left   down  right  $        ||     pgdn    4     5     6    +
     [    ]      (     )    &        ||       `     1     2     3    \
    L2  insert super shift bksp ctrl || alt space   fn    .     0    =


So in order to get the arrows on there, I had to get rid of %, ^, |, and ~, which is a bit of a drag, but you can still hit them by using fn and shift together. Depending what you're doing, you might replace pageup and pagedown with some of these chars.

This is in the atreus-firmware repo (https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware) as "layout_qwerty_alt.h" if anyone wants to give it a spin. I've been using it for a while, and it feels pretty good, but I'd be interested in getting some more feedback. There is some discussion about it on GitHub here too: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware/issues/26#issuecomment-169280024 I could possibly end up making this the default fn layer if people like it a lot better.

Also I do have a very limited supply of assembled boards back up for sale at http://atreus.technomancy.us just FYI.

Offline cy384

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #215 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 10:38:14 »
For me, I've never developed the habit of using a number pad, so giving up the space on the right hand was an easy choice (with a number row across the top instead).  A few characters ended up requiring fn+shift to get to, but I'm okay with the trade off.  My current L1:

Code: [Select]
1       2      3       4        5                      6       7       8        9        0
 {       }      (       )        `                      =      LEFT     UP     RIGHT      |
 %       ^      [       ]        ~                      +       *      DOWN      &        \
 L2     TAB    WIN    SHIFT     DEL    CTRL    ALT    SPACE     Fn      .        !      ENTER

It's roughly meant to match the more common characters used for programming in the languages I like using (C, python, openscad), and some other tweaks for personal purposes.  I find that having the arrows in a T is slightly more comfortable than an inverted T (while having numbers on top).

Another little thing I've modified lately is using flipped R1 DCS keycaps on the middle of the bottom row, (on the shift, backspace, space, and Fn keys).  The cylindrical profile is a little gentler on the sides of my thumbs.  I tried to 3D print some similarly sculpted 1.5u caps for the middle thumb keys, but haven't ended up with anything great yet.

I'm planning on having WASD custom print a set of keycaps soon, which will hopefully make it easier for me to go full-time on this keyboard.  Once I finish the design I'll upload it somewhere.  A tricky part of doing this was choosing what row of their sculpted cylindrical keycaps I want where; with a few samples, I've decided on this:

Code: [Select]
R4   R4   R4   R4   R4              R4   R4   R4   R4   R4   R4
R3   R3   R3   R3   R3              R3   R3   R3   R3   R3   R3
R1   R1   R1   R1   R1              R1   R1   R1   R1   R1   R1
R4   R4   R4   R2*  R2*  R3** R3**  R2*  R2*  R4   R4   R4   R4

* flipped
** 1.5u keys, keep in mind the rotation needed; tab and \

Also, watch out for using the F and J R2, since those keycaps have homing lines.

Wow, that looks really sharp; good work. The stripe of yellow is a nice touch.
Thanks!
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 January 2016, 10:57:04 by cy384 »

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #216 on: Wed, 20 January 2016, 02:23:08 »
built mine with matias quiet tactile last week, sanded with 100, 220, 800, and 1500 and then used fast drying spray glossy clear enamel 4 coats on every layer both sides, 2500 sandpaper between two coats. reminds me of quality wood flooring. took very little effort because im LAZY. i did the spray in my currently mostly empty attic storage because weather not acceptable to do outside. used m2 screws with a m3 width m2 tube for a minimal screw look like i did with my ergodoxes. biggest complaint is the spray enamel paint smell of the keyboard is very strong and still there 5 days after i did it



pictures on my flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx, unfortunately all from phone, deserves better pictures

tmk firmware with default COLEMAK layout, considering some changes

technomancy has been GREAT to do business with, going to build a second one with the legacy cherry mx plate (fyi these ship from technomancy with Matias switches). going to super silence the mx switches, use that one for traveling. need to get a travel case for it. the matias switches were a good idea to ship with on his part, they are the far superior stock switch.

i LOVE this keyboard. i've built a phantom, gh60, infinity ergodox, and atreus in the last 30 days (been busy lol) and i like the atreus i think the best. i started learning colemak last week also and this actually works well, currently at 34 wpm average with the atreus and colemak, completely touch type. no legends. which is far behind the 100wpm i used to get with qwerty.

tried to type on my ergodox yesterday and oddly keep messing up, even though that keyboard has colemak legends. i think im going to make this atreus my primary moving forward and use the left hand of my infinity ergodox for gaming. this little simple 40% is everything i need. i could change my mind in the future given i own 20 keyboards but im going to enjoy my enjoyment. i NEVER thought i would like a 40% board.

biggest regret i have is it comes with all normal ALPS DSA caps and that i couldn't touch type without homing bumps or deep dish so i took a knife to 2 keycaps to make my own homing bump not realizing nobody stocks DSA ALPS. SP were mean to me when i asked. so i ruined fairly rare blank keycaps. its ugly up close but you cant notice from afar. should have used stickers or something temporary. thinking about murdering some deep dish mx caps and gluing alps stems on them.


alright well gg guys, TL:DR the atreus is awesome!

(Attachment Link)

Seeing this thread bumped up, I figure'll mention my Atreus build (which I've posted in a few other places).  I made it from matte black acrylic, and then 3D printed a bracket to add bluetooth to it.  Complete details and code on my website and more pics on imgur.  I'm still not entirely comfortable without having a paper reference of the layout, so for convenience I'm going to put together a file to have WASD print some keycaps.

A tip that may be useful to anyone else building a custom keyboard: if you use long nylon screws, you can assemble your board and then use a sharp knife to cut them flush to exactly the right size.  Also, they're soft enough not to scratch whatever surface you use the keyboard on, without adding feet.  They're readily available for cheap in black or white/translucent, and I think you can dye nylon easily to other colors.

i may copy this bluetooth thing if this board proves to be my endgame primary, looks great, though because its not on the pcb, i worry this wiring would look like a bomb to the tsa (i fly for work), wondering if something could be done to the pcb to simplify it

« Last Edit: Wed, 20 January 2016, 03:26:00 by Glod »
GLOD
The Invisible.

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #217 on: Thu, 21 January 2016, 23:41:27 »
added a micro to mini usb pigtail so that i can use the large amount of mini cables i own, it also travels better i think this way because i can use super short cables




so far so good on using this thing as my primary, what sucks is now i keep pressing space to backspace when i use a normal keyboard, now i am wanting my future normal keyboards to have split spacebars, its a much better location for it.

i am also starting to hate dsa, i didnt used to hate it but i am learning this keyboard and colemak at the same time and the lack of sculpting sucks even with my ghetto homing bump i keep losing my position, i am pondering buying the matias blank set though its likely a very cheap feeling abs set and pretty expensive at 50USD+ ship
GLOD
The Invisible.

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #218 on: Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:41:01 »
i LOVE this keyboard. i've built a phantom, gh60, infinity ergodox, and atreus in the last 30 days (been busy lol) and i like the atreus i think the best.

Thanks for the kind words; always makes me happy to see people excited about this.

biggest regret i have is it comes with all normal ALPS DSA caps and that i couldn't touch type without homing bumps or deep dish so i took a knife to 2 keycaps to make my own homing bump not realizing nobody stocks DSA ALPS. SP were mean to me when i asked. so i ruined fairly rare blank keycaps. its ugly up close but you cant notice from afar. should have used stickers or something temporary. thinking about murdering some deep dish mx caps and gluing alps stems on them.

If you want a few replacement Alps DSA caps I can send you some. SP can be difficult to deal with, but they are nice to me because I place orders of 2500+ at a time. =D

i am pondering buying the matias blank set though its likely a very cheap feeling abs set and pretty expensive at 50USD+ ship

I bought this set for an early prototype. The sculpted keys were nice on the thumbs, but not as nice for the other keys IMO; I felt like overall it was a wash. Also very strangely it only included a single homing bump key. But maybe you'll find it more to your liking.

Offline domsch1988

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #219 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:00:22 »
I've got some questions to those who already own this keyboard. My tax return is coming and i will get a new Keyboard. I first wanted a Ergodox (thats what brought me to GH). I think the Atreus looks much nicer, but there are some concerns with a 40% Keyboard:
- Are you able to get all Alphas, Numbers, F-Keys and Modifiers on that thing? I know that you'd have to work with layers, but are you able to get to more complicated shortcuts (like Ctrl-Alt-Del)? As an IT Administrator thats a necessity for me.
- Is the Split far enough apart for you?
- I think the position of the middle buttons is strange. My Thumbs naturally rest on the lowest rows inner most keys. The 2u middle keys seem hard to get to?

Which of the two would you recommend? I am used to split, but normal staggered layout. My work is mostly not writing long texts. My Keyboard is mostly a mouse extension, so heavy shortcut, modifier, win-key and Number use. Ergodox or Atreus? Keep in mind, i'd have to get both to Germany. The Ergodox would need caps added (falbatech), so would be a bit more expensive. I really can't decide here  :'(

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #220 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:47:04 »
- Are you able to get all Alphas, Numbers, F-Keys and Modifiers on that thing? I know that you'd have to work with layers, but are you able to get to more complicated shortcuts (like Ctrl-Alt-Del)? As an IT Administrator thats a necessity for me.

Ctrl-alt-del is not going to work on the default layout, but you would definitely want to shift this around since the default layout is optimized for programming.

- Is the Split far enough apart for you?

My take is that if you are going to leave it in one place on a desk, the split of the Ergodox is better. But taking the Ergodox around with you is a pain in the neck.

My Keyboard is mostly a mouse extension, so heavy shortcut, modifier, win-key and Number use.

One disadvantage of the Atreus is that each modifier only shows once on it--because the board is so small there is not room for left and right ctrl, left and right alt, etc. So one-handed use is a bit more awkward. And by default the function keys are on L2, which is accessed modally instead of by simply holding a key. But if you take the time to customize your layout and optimize for the kinds of things you need, I'm sure you could make it work nicely.

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #221 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:48:29 »
Oh, also I thought I would mention here that I had to move the Atreus mailing list; the original provider has gone offline. Take a look at http://atreus.technomancy.us/list for details. Unfortunately I was not able to get a list of subscribers from the old provider before they went offline, so I have no way of notifying everyone about the move.

You can subscribe to the new list by sending an email to atreus-request@freelists.org with "subscribe" in the subject.

Offline domsch1988

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #222 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:57:44 »
...

Thanks for the Input, it's much appreciated. I think i'll just have to do some layout testing then. I'll see how i can fit the needed functions on there. How many Layers are supported?

Maybe Ergodox at work and Atreus at home?  :))

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #223 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 01:33:24 »
Thanks for the Input, it's much appreciated. I think i'll just have to do some layout testing then. I'll see how i can fit the needed functions on there. How many Layers are supported?

Either 32 or 64, I forget which. But for what you are doing you might prefer the TMK firmware over the default: https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus/keyboard/atreus It has better support for enabling multiple momentary layers.

Offline evangs

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #224 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 09:57:37 »
wow, these boards look amazing! nice work.  I've thought about angling my 40% so it would pretty much be this without the columnar staggering.  really cool to see the advancement in the 40 space.
AquaVanCreamsicle

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #225 on: Thu, 28 January 2016, 13:43:43 »
Atreus #2 !!!
thanks to technomancy for letting me purchase a remaining cherry mx plate

Enamel Varnish finished drying, going to solder later tonight hopefully,

and then i am going to super-silence the switches using a combination of normal switch lube for the sliders, pure grease on the rails and silicone lube for the springs and then using something i hate which are o-rings, the plan is for this one to be used for traveling which in part of the year i do a lot of for work and i don't want to have this thing be really loud when am in something like a board room or a training room. i want to show this thing off but not give a bad impression. i am debating just pulling/de-soldering clears i have already done this to on a keyboard i don't use, would save me so much trouble. whatever TLDR--- gonna use lube

VIDEO, CLICK TO VIEW ON FLICKR
Atreus #2 VIDEO Enamel Varnish Finished Drying by almightyglod, on Flickr

i did something risky by sanding down the edges which worked with great success in looks, but i did chip off a piece on the top before doing the glossy varnish after sanding, i know it is going to bother the hell out of me forever but whatever, i am using this for travel, its bound to get beat up. i used a ton of enamel on both side of the layers to strengthen it hopefully. i think it looks better than my matias one overall














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Offline domsch1988

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #226 on: Fri, 29 January 2016, 01:00:58 »
Just ordered my kit after some really nice and informative talk to technomancy  :thumb:
My first custom keyboard, my first 40%, my first Matias keyboard and the first keyboard i'll build myself. So many firsts here   ;D I'm really Stoked to get this beauty.
Since i'm German (need ,,) and might have a different needs than most using this keyboard, i'll keep you updated on my choice for layout. I'm now heavily working on the Layout Editor to get everything sorted before the board arrives  :thumb:

Offline Sagii

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #227 on: Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:57:12 »
Just ordered my kit after some really nice and informative talk to technomancy  :thumb:
My first custom keyboard, my first 40%, my first Matias keyboard and the first keyboard i'll build myself. So many firsts here   ;D I'm really Stoked to get this beauty.
Since i'm German (need ,,) and might have a different needs than most using this keyboard, i'll keep you updated on my choice for layout. I'm now heavily working on the Layout Editor to get everything sorted before the board arrives  :thumb:

I'm in the works of building my own modified version of the atreus! Facing the same problem as you, need (Norwegian), which means I'd essentially need a new column. But that makes it bigger ._. and if I want it as small as possible, but still with an extra column it'd be asymmetrical (by adding a column on the right hand side, but none on the left). So many decisions ._. I don't know wether I'd survive with just having on a separate layer. Will definitely be interesting to hear your toughts on it when you get to test it out! May I ask what layouts/layers you've come up with so far?  :)

The atreus is THE most aesthetically pleasing keyboard I've seen to date. I just love everything about it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 29 January 2016, 19:01:04 by Sagii »

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #228 on: Fri, 29 January 2016, 21:05:47 »
I don't know wether I'd survive with just having on a separate layer. Will definitely be interesting to hear your toughts on it when you get to test it out!

I don't speak or type Norwegian, so I can't speak with authority on this, but the new layout has 5 keys on the fn layer that are just shift+number; !, @, #, $, and &. Replacing some of these with Norwegian chars might not be all that big of a deal since you already have to use shift+fn to hit %, ^, ~, and |. You could also consider moving -, /, and ' to the fn layer if the Norwegian chars are used extremely frequently.

If you do decide to add columns, keep in mind that you can probably still use the standard PCB for most of the board and just hand-wire the new columns themselves. The controller does have a few extra GPIO pins that can be used as inputs for new columns.

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #229 on: Fri, 29 January 2016, 21:44:27 »
so i was in between meetings today and i said **** it, im going to record a video about the atreus, so i indeed made a 26 min video about the atreus

technomancy please forgive me for the cringe worthy comment about the dsa caps, it sounds like some passive aggresive insult in retrospect, but that wasn't the intention, the whole video is me rambling on and all of it is praise of your board, i am hoping i didnt **** up.


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79197.msg2032316#msg203231

hd=1
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Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #230 on: Sat, 30 January 2016, 00:35:36 »
so i was in between meetings today and i said **** it, im going to record a video about the atreus, so i indeed made a 26 min video about the atreus

Wow, that's quite the rant. (And I mean that in a good way.) It's always good to get feedback, especially this extremely detailed sort.

No worries about the DSA comments; I think it makes sense that there would be some frustration if you are making the switch to Colemak at the same time.

The thing about the case edges is that a lot of "proper" woodworking people are down on plywood, so it's a common thing among laser-cut designs that use birch ply to leave the charring in place because it covers the fact that it's ply. But yeah, I can see there is something about the charring on your first build that is really uneven; I'm not sure why that is. So in that case, yeah, covering it up with some black paint would help. Sanding it down looks good too--I should probably just ignore the trend of hating on ply and embrace it for what it is. (You can build cases out of harder woods, but usually that is done with CNC instead of a laser cutter, and my understanding is it's really difficult to get a precisely-cut switch plate that way.)

You're right that the center thumb keys are a bit hard to fit in with the Matias board. I have a revision to that in-process that I need to finish up, but unfortunately the turn-around for testing changes is very long since I don't live in the US any more where my laser guy is. I have been meaning to add a note to the assembly guide about this though; there are a few tricks you can use to make it go in easier. Thanks for the reminder about that.

The firmware reset key is definitely moving in the next-gen layout I'm working on. (mentioned above in this thread) Would be interested in hearing about how you like that if you get a chance to try it. I haven't added it to my TMK fork yet; maybe I can do that next week. You mentioned print-screen, scroll-lock, and pause; I will add those into some of the blank spaces on L2 before finalizing the new layout. TBH I just totally forgot those keys existed.

Offline Sagii

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #231 on: Sat, 30 January 2016, 05:46:25 »
I don't speak or type Norwegian, so I can't speak with authority on this, but the new layout has 5 keys on the fn layer that are just shift+number; !, @, #, $, and &. Replacing some of these with Norwegian chars might not be all that big of a deal since you already have to use shift+fn to hit %, ^, ~, and |. You could also consider moving -, /, and ' to the fn layer if the Norwegian chars are used extremely frequently.

If you do decide to add columns, keep in mind that you can probably still use the standard PCB for most of the board and just hand-wire the new columns themselves. The controller does have a few extra GPIO pins that can be used as inputs for new columns.

Actually replacing -, ', / might not be a bad idea. I'll be honest, I never thought of that. I'm about to make a bunch of prototypes and just sit for a while and type on every one of them, to see what I like (Yay laser cutter and cardboard!). I would also consider moving to the punctuation layer (from your standard layouts, that is). I actually don't think it would be a big problem to simply remove $, (, ) simply because when I'm using that definitely means I'm NOT programming. If I'm writing code, I do so in english, meaning would not be necessary.
Also, I've been messing around with the idea of maybe adding an extra column to the right, but also adding the same amount of space on the left, but NOT adding keys. Putting an LCD og some indicative LEDs there instead, just for fun (and symmetry).

I don't know yet tbh, I'll just have to try everything out. On my way to uni, to cut some stuff and get some prototypes out and rollin'.
The input is very much appreciated, so thank you ^^ I'm very new to all this, so I'm like a sponge trying to suck up all the knowledge I can!
« Last Edit: Sat, 30 January 2016, 05:54:07 by Sagii »

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #232 on: Sat, 30 January 2016, 20:32:54 »
I would also consider moving to the punctuation layer (from your standard layouts, that is). I actually don't think it would be a big problem to simply remove $, (, ) simply because when I'm using that definitely means I'm NOT programming. If I'm writing code, I do so in english, meaning would not be necessary.

Ah, yeah. One thing I do with the multidvorak layout I made is that it has different modes; when you first plug it in it is in software dvorak mode, and then you can switch it to hardware dvorak mode (which is really just a different set of layers). You could do something similar with "coding mode" and "Norwegian mode".

Offline Sagii

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #233 on: Sun, 31 January 2016, 10:44:16 »

Ah, yeah. One thing I do with the multidvorak layout I made is that it has different modes; when you first plug it in it is in software dvorak mode, and then you can switch it to hardware dvorak mode (which is really just a different set of layers). You could do something similar with "coding mode" and "Norwegian mode".

That's exactly what I was planning to do (if I choose to not add an extra column). Good hearing it's actually possible ^^ I'm thinking of having one layer specifically designed with computer engineering and programming in mind, and another with my psychology studies (read: normal essays etc.) in mind.

As of right now, I think I'm going to find an old essay, and a old program of sorts, then try "copying" those using the prototype I "built", just to get a feel of how "real" writing would feel like. If I find myself getting annoyed by the lack of on the main layer I know I'll have to do something. If not, then great :D
I really hope I'll end up finding that having on a second layer is manageable, 'cause I really like the aesthetics of the original Atreus (you did a hell of a good job, and are still doing one!).
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 January 2016, 10:48:10 by Sagii »

Offline domsch1988

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #234 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 03:59:33 »
As i'm working on my layout, i'm getting a bit confused  :confused:
Lets say, i make a Dvorak firmware and flash it to the atreus. Would the language/keyboard selection in the OS make any difference? As i understand it, the keyboard sends direct scan codes for any key. So if i program a key to output a "e", it will write an "e" no matter what the OS thinks should be in that spot, correct?
So is there a way to influence the Atreus layout from the os, or are all changes done through flashing the firmware and the os has nothing to do with the layout?

Sorry if it's obvious, but if you overthink stuff one tends to get lost in the details...

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #235 on: Mon, 01 February 2016, 07:01:35 »
Lets say, i make a Dvorak firmware and flash it to the atreus. Would the language/keyboard selection in the OS make any difference? As i understand it, the keyboard sends direct scan codes for any key. So if i program a key to output a "e", it will write an "e" no matter what the OS thinks should be in that spot, correct?

Yeah, the OS has no idea what position the key you pressed is in; all it gets are scancodes by character.

So is there a way to influence the Atreus layout from the os, or are all changes done through flashing the firmware and the os has nothing to do with the layout?

When I made my dvorak layout originally (softdvorak), I wrote it assuming that the OS would be set in dvorak mode, because I wanted to continue using my internal keyboard. So I had to assume that whatever keyboard I was using would send qwerty-style scancodes because I couldn't change my internal one. So my Atreus actually sends qwerty scancodes for all the letters. However, for some of the punctuation, I can't send the qwerty scancodes; I have to send a different scancode assuming the OS is going to "dvorakize" it for me. For instance, if I want to send =, I need to send the scancode for ], because that's the qwerty key = is on a dvorak layout.

Another perfectly valid choice is to implement fully-hardware dvorak. This allows you to leave the OS in qwerty mode and have the "dvorakness" just be all handled in the firmware. This is not a good choice for a laptop, but it means that you can take your Atreus to your friend's computer and plug it in to type dvorak without messing with their system settings.

The "multidvorak" layout implements both of these strategies and allows you to toggle between the two.

Hope that makes sense.

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #236 on: Tue, 02 February 2016, 16:47:01 »
xpost,

to further my love hate relationship with dsa. i put retro on here as i originally planned. damn it looks so good




video


as for the build, i had some pictures i didn't share, may be helpful to future buiders, i forgot to mention i used smd diodes instead of through hole. and because of that, i had to add something to prevent the pcb from moving around so i used pieces of rubber feet between the pcb and the plate, not pictured







GLOD
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Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #237 on: Tue, 02 February 2016, 19:30:52 »
to further my love hate relationship with dsa. i put retro on here as i originally planned. damn it looks so good

Woooooow that is a thing of beauty. I had no idea 1x tab and backspace keys even existed.

Offline mastermachetier

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #238 on: Wed, 03 February 2016, 16:45:52 »
(Attachment Link)

Seeing this thread bumped up, I figure'll mention my Atreus build (which I've posted in a few other places).  I made it from matte black acrylic, and then 3D printed a bracket to add bluetooth to it.  Complete details and code on my website and more pics on imgur.  I'm still not entirely comfortable without having a paper reference of the layout, so for convenience I'm going to put together a file to have WASD print some keycaps.

A tip that may be useful to anyone else building a custom keyboard: if you use long nylon screws, you can assemble your board and then use a sharp knife to cut them flush to exactly the right size.  Also, they're soft enough not to scratch whatever surface you use the keyboard on, without adding feet.  They're readily available for cheap in black or white/translucent, and I think you can dye nylon easily to other colors.

Does your case work with Alps?

Offline aalbinger

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #239 on: Thu, 04 February 2016, 11:02:59 »
For what it's worth I've begun the process to try and 3D print an atreus case.  The first step to that was converting the existing OpenSCAD files for laser cutting from 2D into 3D.  Results of this can be found as the .stl files here: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/tree/master/case and in the openscad_3D directory.

My intent is now to split the large models into slightly smaller parts that can more easily be printed in a consumer sized 3D printer.

Opinions welcomed.

Offline mastermachetier

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #240 on: Thu, 04 February 2016, 13:35:32 »
For what it's worth I've begun the process to try and 3D print an atreus case.  The first step to that was converting the existing OpenSCAD files for laser cutting from 2D into 3D.  Results of this can be found as the .stl files here: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/tree/master/case and in the openscad_3D directory.

My intent is now to split the large models into slightly smaller parts that can more easily be printed in a consumer sized 3D printer.

Opinions welcomed.

I am really interested in this option I have access to a 3d printer would not mind trying to 3d print a case and test this keyboard out before committing haha.

Offline Glod

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #241 on: Thu, 04 February 2016, 15:17:08 »
3d printed case sounds cool, i love my wooden case you guys can tell,
but i am planning to travel with this thing, so much risk i will hurt this masterpiece, 3d printed case likely to survive better. i was thinking of having a acrylic case cut but yah

man i need to slow down, i was also going to join some group buys.....i need to reevaluate my life, sell some stuff lol
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Offline domsch1988

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #242 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 07:40:26 »
I have a question concerning my layout creation.
Is it possible, to have a layer lock button?
So, a momentary FN key for a second layer and on that layer a key to lock the layer. Like a Numlock. Id rather not "waste" a key on the main layer (one for FN and one for FN-Lock) but lock it in place when needed from the second layer itself. If thats to complicated, i can try to draw something up...

Offline technomancy

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #243 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 08:59:10 »
Layer lock is definitely possible with the TMK firmware. It would be a bit tricky to code in the regular atreus-firmware, though possible. But I am considering moving to TMK as the default since things like this are a lot easier.

Offline aalbinger

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #244 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 14:53:58 »
For what it's worth I've begun the process to try and 3D print an atreus case.  The first step to that was converting the existing OpenSCAD files for laser cutting from 2D into 3D.  Results of this can be found as the .stl files here: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/tree/master/case and in the openscad_3D directory.

My intent is now to split the large models into slightly smaller parts that can more easily be printed in a consumer sized 3D printer.




Initial testing of the chopped up printable files.  Seems like this will be a go.

Offline cy384

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #245 on: Fri, 05 February 2016, 16:35:23 »
127242-0

My custom WASD keycaps arrived today, and I'm quite satisfied.  Attached you can find the Inkscape SVG I used, feel free to modify it for your own layouts.  More comments about the quality of the printing, etc. over on reddit.

Offline aalbinger

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #246 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 10:59:31 »
I think I have the 3D model worked out well enough to print in 2 pieces.

I'm printing in ABS and intend to use acetone in the pin holes to bond the halves together.



Offline cy384

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #247 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 19:11:12 »
I think I have the 3D model worked out well enough to print in 2 pieces.

I'm printing in ABS and intend to use acetone in the pin holes to bond the halves together.

Are you not having overhang issues with that?  Also, for the switch plate part, with 3D printing it seems like you should make the plate around the switch holes the right thickness for clipping onto (1.5mm for cherry, 1.0-1.2mm for alps); I've done some experimentation, you don't lose much rigidity if you do something like this:
127334-0

If you want (actually, I've already done like half of it...) I'll mess around with the openscad case code and add something like that.  Personally, I think I prefer using linear_extrude for making the 2D stuff into 3D, I'll toss the code up here for discussion once I've got something pretty.

Offline aalbinger

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #248 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 21:35:51 »
Are you not having overhang issues with that?  Also, for the switch plate part, with 3D printing it seems like you should make the plate around the switch holes the right thickness for clipping onto (1.5mm for cherry, 1.0-1.2mm for alps); I've done some experimentation, you don't lose much rigidity if you do something like this:
(Attachment Link)

If you want (actually, I've already done like half of it...) I'll mess around with the openscad case code and add something like that.  Personally, I think I prefer using linear_extrude for making the 2D stuff into 3D, I'll toss the code up here for discussion once I've got something pretty.


I've been an openscad user for almost 3 days.  linear extrude sounds a bit simpler than what I did.  I'd be happy to use someone else's better code I just couldn't find any when I looked.

As to the 3mm vs 1.5mm the 3mm test plate I made holds the switches pretty well but it is true that they don't clip into it and would do best with a bit of glue after being pressed into the plate.  If you have the code to do the 3mm thick plate while with 1.5mm bits around the switches that would be awesome.

-Andrew

Offline cy384

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Re: Atreus, a column-staggered 40%
« Reply #249 on: Sat, 06 February 2016, 22:09:11 »
I haven't completely cleaned/optimized it, but this should let you do a test print of the plate (or the rest of it).  Variables up top are set to some okay defaults.  Edit the stuff near the bottom to print specific pieces.  For the sake of printability I didn't stack all of the layers (to prevent overhangs/support).  Just for fun I uploaded it to Shapeways, which quotes it at about $135; I think I'll stick with my lasercut parts or printing it myself :P

If you want to do a quick print to see how the switch clipping work, I've also attached a 1u demo STL and the openscad script I've used for experimenting on this stuff.