Happy Hacking Keyboard (Lite) is dome switch, so is it less reliable?

[Astra Diesel]

If it is a membrane switch keyboard, how does HHKB Lite manage to retain an amazing 10 million lifecycles (according to ergonomicsresource) ?

I want to buy this keyboard, but I want your expert opinions first.

I'm considering the Avant Prime or the Stellar, but does the company really sell ALPS Switches in them? Your other discussion thread reports that they may use strongmans or cherries, what's the real word on the street.

Regards.

[iMav]

You can find xsphat's review of the HHKB Lite 2 here in the wiki.

Odd that you are considering both the HHKB Lite 2 and an Avant board.  These seem to be pretty much polar opposites.  What exactly is it that you want/need/like in a keyboard?

[puntium]

If it is a membrane switch keyboard, how does HHKB Lite manage to retain an amazing 10 million lifecycles (according to ergonomicsresource) ?

Not all membrane switches are the same. There's el cheapo 10$ boards, the are these HHKB, and then there are even some that are rated for 30 million like the keytronic boards.

For example: http://www.keytronicems.com/home/products/specs/designer-p2.htm

I think some MS Natural's use the keytronic switches at some point, so they last pretty long too. I no some fellow developers that have been using hte old MS Natural Pro for a long time now (5+ years) and they're still working.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

Cherry membranes, especially the Cymotion range, have a very long life spec.  Also some Acer Accufeel, Benq keyboards, the ones with 6511 in their model number, are very cheap, but are rated for 20 million keystrokes.  They can be found under a whole bunch of brand names. HP, Mitsubishi, etc..  Just google keyboard 6511.

I have this one.  It's 9 years old, metal plate bottom and fairly slim for a full-travel membrane. Still rattling away, but may have been quieter when new.  It was my home keyboard for about 6 years.  At the time my work keyboard was Keytronic ergo-something-or-other.  The Keytronic felt superior.

Anyway, my favourite membrane keyboard right now is the Cherry Cymotion line.  It feels great to type on, though it's pretty loud.  Then the Keytronic (the old-skool quality ergo-something), though to be honest I haven't used one in ages, so I don't quite remember how it felt. Then the MS Natural Keyboard Elite.  I got a new one from ebay a couple of months ago, but it was manufactured in 2000 at the latest.  The thing with MS boards is that the same model may have been made by different OEMs at different times (sometimes the same time).  This can lead to wildly different reviews.  Mine's made in Mexico, which leads me to believe the OEM was Keytronic.

[Astra Diesel]

imav, I have recently looked into the "clicky" keyboards phenomenon and after reading various bits and pieces of threads, sites, wiki entries, etc, I just settled on the HHKB (for its size) and Avant for.... well.. I don't know. What do you prefer? I just want to get the avant because I don't want to buy a used IBM M Model keyboard. Secondly, I'm not sure what is better, ALPS based keyboards or Cherry switches? If it is solely based on personal preference, what do you recommend.

I'm using an HP rubber dome "multimedia" keyboard (feature I find useless), from my old 2000 HP Pavilion (comp is long gone), but keyboard stayed after my Logitech cordless desktop keyboard began to get a mind of its own.  I'm glad I found geekhack.org. You need to point me in the right direction.

Regards.

[iMav]

imav, I have recently looked into the "clicky" keyboards phenomenon and after reading various bits and pieces of threads, sites, wiki entries, etc, I just settled on the HHKB (for its size) and Avant for.... well.. I don't know. What do you prefer? I just want to get the avant because I don't want to buy a used IBM M Model keyboard. Secondly, I'm not sure what is better, ALPS based keyboards or Cherry switches? If it is solely based on personal preference, what do you recommend.

IMHO, if you want true, classic "clicky", you need buckling springs.  I can understand not wanting to purchase a used board (Model M).  So, I suggest getting a new buckling spring keyboard from Unicomp.

The Customizer 101 IS the classic Model M.  For a more updated keyboard with meta keys, you can go for the Customizer 104/105.  Or, if you want a slightly smaller form factor with the same great buckling springs, go with the SpaceSaver.  Personally, I like the trackpoints...so I own an EnduraPro.  

These are true modern-day Model M's.

I favor both the buckling springs and the blue cherry keyswitches...but currently type almost exclusively on a HHKB Pro 2.  This is primarily due to (again, IMHO) superior key layout and great portability.

[Astra Diesel]

I favor both the buckling springs and the blue cherry keyswitches...but currently type almost exclusively on a HHKB Pro 2.  This is primarily due to (again, IMHO) superior key layout and great portability.

I only found a blank HHKB Pro . Does yours have letters and numbers printed on the keys? If so, where do I buy your version?

What is the difference between the non-pro and pro version of the Hacking Happy Keyboards? The manufacturer seems to be charging quite a premium for the Pro version.

Thanks again for your help.

[iMav]

I only found a blank HHKB Pro . Does yours have letters and numbers printed on the keys? If so, where do I buy your version?

Don't buy from PFU's Yahoo store.  They only offer the original Pro (the Pro 2 has a built-in USB hub).  Yes, mine is blank...  

What is the difference between the non-pro and pro version of the Hacking Happy Keyboards? The manufacturer seems to be charging quite a premium for the Pro version.

The Lite version uses rubber dome switches and they feel crappy.  The Pro version uses electrical capacitive keyswitches (a change in capacitance is what registers the keystroke).    

The Pro 2's are not available for sale directly in the US....However, you can use a broker.  I have used both GeekStuff4U and beNippon and can recommend both of them.  (prices are a bit cheaper through beNippon right now though).

[Astra Diesel]

If I order through one of the brokers you've listed, do these guys have the keyboards in stock at their U.S. locations, or do they order the HHKB from Japan (right?) and then they ship it to me?

[iMav]

If I order through one of the brokers you've listed, do these guys have the keyboards in stock at their U.S. locations, or do they order the HHKB from Japan (right?) and then they ship it to me?

They are IN Japan.  They buy locally (in Japan) and then ship to you.

[xsphat]

Just get the Pro 2, you'll like it a lot.

[Astra Diesel]

I want to thank you two for your help again.

One last question, what clicky keyboard is the most tactile, and requires very little resistance?

[xsphat]

Alps takes the least resistance, that or the HHKB Pro 2, I can't decide.

[iMav]

One last question, what clicky keyboard is the most tactile, and requires very little resistance?

I think the blue Cherry's require a very light touch.  When I type on my blue-cherry-switch-equipped SMK-88, it feels like I barely have to "flick" my fingers at the keys.  Hard to describe...but very satisfying.

[Astra Diesel]

Are SMK-88's available for sale? What other blue-cherry switch keyboards are available?

I'm definitely considering buying HHKB Pro 2. What is the lifetime of it? (how many keystrokes, till it hits the grave?)

[xsphat]

The SMK88 is available, but it no longer has blue switches. The only ones made in America that for sure have them are the Scorpius M10 and Das II, but both are full-size 'boards so I don't recommend either but they may work for you.

I don't know how many key strokes the HHKB Pros claim, but be sure it's around 20 million per switch.

[iMav]

I'm definitely considering buying HHKB Pro 2. What is the lifetime of it? (how many keystrokes, till it hits the grave?)

According to PFU Systems, "Key Life Expectancy is 30 million keystrokes or more".

[xsphat]

So each keystroke costs a thousandth of a cent ...

[Astra Diesel]

HHKB Pro has no arrow keys. Is there a separate numeric keypad (USB or PS/2) or some kind of detached Arrow keys I can buy?

[xsphat]

HHKB Pro has no arrow keys. Is there a separate numeric keypad (USB or PS/2) or some kind of detached Arrow keys I can buy?

All the functionality of a normal 101 key keyboard is in the HHKB Pro 2 via the Fn key which resides to the right of the right shift key. It does not have a number pad, but if you want that I'm sure many companies make them. Check out this link:

http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/leaflet/hairetu.html

[iMav]

Buy yourself a Mighty Mouse companion key pad.

[Astra Diesel]

White or Black? Which HHKB Pro 2 color is more aesthetically pleasing? (btw, are the letters laser inscribed or do they wear off after time. I ask this in jest, because I'm sure a keyboard that costs nearly a Nintendo WII must have all corners covered.)\

Will I type faster on the HHKB Pro 2, do you experience any discomforts in your wrist?

If the hhkb pro 2 needs me to press down the FN key to control the volume, use the arrow keys, etc, will I need to install separate software on my computer, or will the system automatically recognize the HHKB Pro 2's need to use the FN key?

[iMav]

White or Black?

That's personal preference.  Mine is white and black.  

do you experience any discomforts in your wrist?

No.

If the hhkb pro 2 needs me to press down the FN key to control the volume, use the arrow keys, etc, will I need to install separate software on my computer, or will the system automatically recognize the HHKB Pro 2's need to use the FN key?

No software required.

[xsphat]

Color is a matter of choice. I have the black one with black writing on it, and the letters are there but fairly hard to see at times, but I think it is the best looking one.

The HHKB Pro 2 is plug and play, I have a Mac and the keyboard does everything it claims to right out of the box. On Mac, Fn+Esc brings up the sleep / shut down / restart menu.

I haven't really had trouble with my wrists, so I can't help ou there.

[xsphat]

iMav beat me to it.

[puntium]

FWIW i like the white one better, .. especially when you have to learn where all the Fn shifted combinations are..

my wife particularly couldn't deal with the black on black keys in a dark room.

[puntium]

Also I might note that the white and black ones feel different to me. The black one felt like the springs were tad lighter, and the whole thing definitely made a thunkier sound as I typed. It might not be different switches, but different plastic? I couldn't really find anything on the net that documented the differences.

[xsphat]

It is thunky, and I like it.

[Astra Diesel]

Also I might note that the white and black ones feel different to me. The black one felt like the springs were tad lighter, and the whole thing definitely made a thunkier sound as I typed. It might not be different switches, but different plastic? I couldn't really find anything on the net that documented the differences.

Just the info I needed. I love specifics. Thank you puntium. One more thing,
can I press more than one key without the HHKB locking up? I play fs2004 some times, I need to press down multiple keys.

Puntium, if the black HHKB pro 2 felt a little lighter and made the thunking sound as you typed, what does the white HHKB pro 2 feel like? Did you like the thunking sensation?

thanks again.

[puntium]

Just the info I needed. I love specifics. Thank you puntium. One more thing,
can I press more than one key without the HHKB locking up? I play fs2004 some times, I need to press down multiple keys.

Puntium, if the black HHKB pro 2 felt a little lighter and made the thunking sound as you typed, what does the white HHKB pro 2 feel like? Did you like the thunking sensation?

Yes, the HHKB Pro 2 has full n-key rollover. You're only limited by USB as to the number of keys you can have held down at once. (six)

The normal HHKB Pro 2 is not quite as thunky.. its qiueter and the bounce sound is less prominent. I think it might be a slight difference in what happens after you press on a key hard enough to get over the initial resistance. I think the white HHKBP2 just a tad more resistance there to make the landing a bit softer.

I don't have both of them in front of me any more to compare, so it's hard to day. I can't say I remember exactly how it felt.