Topre p0rn/sex: silencing the Novatouch

[spiceBar]

This post will be replaced by a full step-by-step method at a later time.

Edit 2015/02/16: KeyCapsule has applied the landing pads silencing mods to his RF87U and 104UG. The method is exactly the same for the Novatouch. He has posted a nice set of photos and a video to document the operation and the results:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68850.0
(end of edit)

Original message:

I have spent 3 evenings working on silencing the Novatouch, which BADLY needs it.

After some experiments, I have found a method that works very well => Good sound, no change in tactile feel.

The silencing can be done in 3 or 4 hours. The special parts that you need are EliteKeyboards' soft landing pads (black ones) and some thick grease. The rest you will find at home.

If you want to hear the result, here is how the Novatouch sounds out of the box:
  http://www.chesstiger.com/images/keyboards/Novatouch.wav

And here is how it sounds after my silencing mod:
  http://www.chesstiger.com/images/keyboards/Novatouch_fully_silenced.wav

(Both recordings have been done at the same level, with the mic at the same distance, and the typing style was light: I was trying in both case to type fast without making too much noise. The keycaps are the standard Novatouch keycaps)

The Novatouch, once modded, has one of the most satisfying "Thock" of all the Topre boards I own. I have one HHKB Type-S, two modded Realforce 87U, one modded Realforce 88UB and one modded FC660C.

And this is before I even try to find better sounding keycaps for it. You DO know that you can use Cherry MX keycaps on the Novatouch, right? ;-)

At the end of the audio clip I press 3 times on each of the stabilized keys, in this order:
  Backspace
  Enter
  Right Shift
  Left Shift
  Space
...so you can hear that the stabilized keys do not "rattle" anymore.

Until I post the full method, you can gather all the essential information from this post:
  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65821.msg1540860#msg1540860
which also links to another post of mine for basic info.

Here is the recording setup. The idea was to let you hear how it sounds when YOU type on it:


    Please note that the keycaps pictured are not the standard ones.
    The standard Novatouch keycaps have been used for the two recordings above.
    The towel insulates the mic from picking the sounds coming from the desk
    (you don't type with your ear on the table)


I am going to replace this post with the full method, at a later time.

[spiceBar]

(reserved)

[intelli78]

Nice work! It does sound good silenced.
Your next mission is to figure out how to prevent GMK right shift and enter from hitting against the stabilizer housings.

[spiceBar]

Nice work! It does sound good silenced.
Your next mission is to figure out how to prevent GMK right shift and enter from hitting against the stabilizer housings.

You realize you are partly responsible for this sound orgasm, right?     

I don't own the GMK keycaps. O-rings have only one purpose on the Novatouch: make the keycaps taller so they don't hit the Topre switch housing. Does an O-ring under these keycaps improve the sound?

[intelli78]

You realize you are partly responsible for this sound orgasm, right?     

When you put it that way, I would rather not be involved  )

O rings do fix the problem, yes, but they totally change the key travel and make it mushy. Even worse than the clacking.
I can send you some GMK caps if you are willing to investigate.

[spiceBar]

You realize you are partly responsible for this sound orgasm, right?     

When you put it that way, I would rather not be involved  )

O rings do fix the problem, yes, but they totally change the key travel and make it mushy. Even worse than the clacking.
I can send you some GMK caps if you are willing to investigate.

I understand the O-ring can make the key taller, but it should not change the key travel. I cannot see how it could do that.

What you need is a ring made of hard plastic or even metal. The trick is to make the keycap just tall enough so it does not hit the switch housing anymore.

The last resort is to use a file on the switch housing, but you need to know where, exactly, the keycap hits it.

[Hogesyx]

Nice work! I am waiting for some 0.5mm silicone pad to arrive, very curious on which is the best material for this mod.

[spiceBar]

Nice work! I am waiting for some 0.5mm silicone pad to arrive, very curious on which is the best material for this mod.

I'm afraid that 0.5mm is going to change the tactile feel of the switch. This is the problem. You need some really thin sound dampeners.

But please try and tell us how it works.

[Evo_Spec]

Nice work, sounds really nice after the mod.

[deci]

Very nice! Sounds good.

I have dental banded an hhkb before but didn't like the reduced travel.
My next bet was buying the 0.5 foam sheets that fishermen use on their fly bait.

I'll have to try out the elitekeyboard pads...

How thick are they though? And why soft instead of hard?

[spiceBar]

Very nice! Sounds good.

I have dental banded an hhkb before but didn't like the reduced travel.
My next bet was buying the 0.5 foam sheets that fishermen use on their fly bait.

I'll have to try out the elitekeyboard pads...

How thick are they though? And why soft instead of hard?

About their thickness: please read the post I have linked to.

The reduction in travel caused by my mod cannot be felt. The switches feel exactly like normal Topre switches, they are just more silent on the upstroke.

I use soft landing pads because they can be slimmed down with an iron. The other landing pads are not hard, they are "firm". They are soft but made with a rubber that is denser. They cannot be slimmed down with an iron like the soft ones.

[deci]

Very nice! Sounds good.

I have dental banded an hhkb before but didn't like the reduced travel.
My next bet was buying the 0.5 foam sheets that fishermen use on their fly bait.

I'll have to try out the elitekeyboard pads...

How thick are they though? And why soft instead of hard?

About their thickness: please read the post I have linked to.

The reduction in travel caused by my mod cannot be felt. The switches feel exactly like normal Topre switches, they are just more silent on the upstroke.

I use soft landing pads because they can be slimmed down with an iron. The other landing pads are not hard, they are "firm". They are soft but made with a rubber that is denser. They cannot be slimmed down with an iron like the soft ones.

Ahh thanks for the info. I replied in the other thread.
Didn't know the landing pads got that slim. I have to try this

[Ngt]

Thanks for the quick update on that mod. So just in order to synthesize your point of view so far is that: considering unmodded  board RF 87U > CM Novatouch but as far as silenced board goes CM Novatouch > RF 87U? I guess that's only regarding the "thock" feeling right? RF quality build is better than the Novatouch, isn't it?

[spiceBar]

Thanks for the quick update on that mod. So just in order to synthesize your point of view so far is that: considering unmodded  board RF 87U > CM Novatouch but as far as silenced board goes CM Novatouch > RF 87U? I guess that's only regarding the "thock" feeling right? RF quality build is better than the Novatouch, isn't it?

It depends on what is more important to you.

In build quality, both keyboards are equivalent, except for the keycaps: the Realforce has better keycaps, but there is not much choice if you want or need to replace them.

In sound, the Realforce sounds better out of the box, but once silenced both keyboards are great. The Novatouch's "Thock" is more present, which could be considered a desirable feature. Anyway, both keyboards sound very nice, without any unwanted sounds (clicks and rattle).

Once both keyboards are modded, the Novatouch can be considered as the best deal, due to its compatibility with a large range of Cherry MX keycaps.

[Ngt]

Thanks for the quick update on that mod. So just in order to synthesize your point of view so far is that: considering unmodded  board RF 87U > CM Novatouch but as far as silenced board goes CM Novatouch > RF 87U? I guess that's only regarding the "thock" feeling right? RF quality build is better than the Novatouch, isn't it?

It depends on what is more important to you.

In build quality, both keyboards are equivalent, except for the keycaps: the Realforce has better keycaps, but there is not much choice if you want or need to replace them.

In sound, the Realforce sounds better out of the box, but once silenced both keyboards are great. The Novatouch's "Thock" is more present, which could be considered a desirable feature. Anyway, both keyboards sound very nice, without any unwanted sounds (clicks and rattle).

Once both keyboards are modded, the Novatouch can be considered as the best deal, due to its compatibility with a large range of Cherry MX keycaps.

Fair enough. Thank you for your answer. It is going to be hard to decide which one to get.

[Ngt]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

[madhias]

The modded Novatouch sounds really nice! Very soft, but deep and absolutely nothing annoying about it. I'm currently using here a Realforce 87U with 55g and love it that much, that i can't believe i don't have another Topre board - so it will be a Novatouch, because of its ability to use MX caps!

[spiceBar]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

[exitfire401]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

Pro tip for the next time you accidentally (or purposely) pull the domes off. Suspend the plate between two books so that the sliders stay in their normal position, then lay the domes into the slider housing, then place the springs in. Place the PCB on top and screw back on. It makes life MUCH easier. Also, watch out any time you're messing with the springs...those little bastards like to get stuck on each other and intertwine. Once thought I lost a spring when I was 55g modding my 23u...two springs had twited into each other and were sitting in a single dome.

[spiceBar]

I don't consider myself a touch typist, but still, are the hi-profile keys fatiguing to type on after a while?

Fatigue is not the issue. I only have it for few days. I used to glide from one keys to the other.

With this keyboard, the scoop's edges are in the way and you feel them all the time. So I'm starting to lift my fingers higher in order to move above the edges and land dead center on the keys. It is not exactly pleasant.

I'm very skeptical that this design will increase accuracy of data entry freaks.

Anyway, some one just told me I don't deserve this Keyboard, so another good reason to part with it.

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

Pro tip for the next time you accidentally (or purposely) pull the domes off. Suspend the plate between two books so that the sliders stay in their normal position, then lay the domes into the slider housing, then place the springs in. Place the PCB on top and screw back on. It makes life MUCH easier. Also, watch out any time you're messing with the springs...those little bastards like to get stuck on each other and intertwine. Once thought I lost a spring when I was 55g modding my 23u...two springs had twited into each other and were sitting in a single dome.

Absolutely. I did as you suggest when I started getting in trouble with the springs.

I also noticed the "twin springs" problem. Nasty.

I must add that inside the Novatouch there is only one sheet of rubber that includes all the domes. In the Realforce, you have several sheets, probably because each sheet corresponds to its own key weight.

The rubber sheet inside the Novatouch finally separated from the PCB because I was doing tests and I had removed and put back the plate a good dozen times.

If you mod the Novatouch and do it right, this should not happen. But it's good to know what to do if you get in trouble.

[Ngt]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

Oh damn I didn't think it would need soldering! It seems harder than I imagine. I'll be looking forward to read your step by step guide.

[spiceBar]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

Oh damn I didn't think it would need soldering! It seems harder than I imagine. I'll be looking forward to read your step by step guide.

There is no soldering involved.

The iron I'm talking about is a clothing iron (in french: "un fer à repasser") not a soldering iron.

[Ngt]

Oh and I forgot to ask you another question. Does this mod take only 3-4 hours due to your experience on doing it multiple times or is it a time inexperienced people can reach?

You should be able to do it in 4 to 5 hours actually, but maybe it's better to take your time and do it in 5-6 hours.

I did it in incremental steps: first I silenced the case by stuffing it with rubber foam material. It took me several tries. Then I re-assembled the keyboard completely and recorded the result. I had already recorded the unmodded keyboard, so I could compare the sounds and it told me I was going in the right direction. I used the keyboard like this for one full day of work.

The next evening was wasted because the keyboard started to act up. I thought the padding I had added was somehow applying too much pressure on the PCB and was causing the problems. So I disassembled the keyboard once again and tried to remove some padding. It turns out the keyboard was perfectly fine. The problem was caused by a defective USB hub...

The next evening was spent silencing the upstrokes. This is what takes a long time. You need to remove the 30 screws that hold together the plate and the PCB, and you must be careful not to remove the domes from the PCB, because if you do it's a nightmare to reinstall the conical springs under the domes. Then you remove the sliders from the housings. Then ironing all the 87 landing pads takes one full hour. You can count another hour carefully inserting them on the sliders and putting the sliders back into the housings.

Silencing the 5 stabilized keys should take 20 minutes to half an hour.

If you screw up and something goes wrong, you can count an additional hour disassembling the keyboard, fixing the problem and reassembling it. I recommend testing the keyboard before reassembling it, which is possible.

Oh damn I didn't think it would need soldering! It seems harder than I imagine. I'll be looking forward to read your step by step guide.

There is no soldering involved.

The iron I'm talking about is a clothing iron (in french: "un fer à repasser") not a soldering iron.

Oh ok! It felt weird to me that one would need a soldering iron for the landing pads. Thanks for clearing this out.

[Hogesyx]

Nice work! I am waiting for some 0.5mm silicone pad to arrive, very curious on which is the best material for this mod.

I'm afraid that 0.5mm is going to change the tactile feel of the switch. This is the problem. You need some really thin sound dampeners.

But please try and tell us how it works.

Just finish modding my novatouch using 0.5mm silicone pad, it is those pad that is used for thermal transfer. 0.5mm doesnt seems to affect the tactile bump. Will definitely need a longer time to get a more complete review once the grease properly set in. I seems to went over aggressive with the grease for the stabilizer, my backspace is kinda sticky now.

[spiceBar]

Nice work! I am waiting for some 0.5mm silicone pad to arrive, very curious on which is the best material for this mod.

I'm afraid that 0.5mm is going to change the tactile feel of the switch. This is the problem. You need some really thin sound dampeners.

But please try and tell us how it works.

Just finish modding my novatouch using 0.5mm silicone pad, it is those pad that is used for thermal transfer. 0.5mm doesnt seems to affect the tactile bump. Will definitely need a longer time to get a more complete review once the grease properly set in. I seems to went over aggressive with the grease for the stabilizer, my backspace is kinda sticky now.

I think I know what the problem is with your Backspace key: the grease is too fluid and has leaked a little bit. The bottom of the stabilized keys sliders is flat, and just below there is a flat rubber surface. When the grease leaks between these two flats surfaces, you get a slightly sticky key: it doesn't stick when you press on it, it sticks for a split of a second when you release it.

I have experienced exactly the same problem on all my stabilized keys. I had to re-open the keyboard and carefully remove the grease. I have then used a different grease, one that is more viscous ("harder"), and this has solved the problem.

[Lunatique]

My takeaway from all this, is that the most favored Topre sound (and arguably, all mechanical keyboards), is something similar to the "clop clop clop" sound of horse hooves, because it's both crisp and deep, sounding meaty and solid, without annoying resonances or high pitched noises. That about right?

[spiceBar]

My takeaway from all this, is that the most favored Topre sound (and arguably, all mechanical keyboards), is something similar to the "clop clop clop" sound of horse hooves, because it's both crisp and deep, sounding meaty and solid, without annoying resonances or high pitched noises. That about right?

That's right.

We call it the Topre "Thock". It's the sound of a bottoming out Topre switch. It's the sound of the slider hitting a rubber surface over the PCB.

High pitched noises created by plastic hitting plastic or plastic hitting metal is generally annoying. That's what O-rings or landing pads under the keycaps suppress in Cherry MX keyboards (on the downstroke). On Topre keyboards, that's what we use landing pads for, but this time inside the switches, and it mutes the upstroke.

The "Thock" should not sound hollow either. That's why I add padding inside Topre boards.

This deep and silky sound, together with the tactile dome collapse, is the strong point of the Topre keyboards.

Disclaimer: I love Cherry MX and ALPS keyboards, too, but they sound really different.

[SpicyLobotomy]

My takeaway from all this, is that the most favored Topre sound (and arguably, all mechanical keyboards), is something similar to the "clop clop clop" sound of horse hooves, because it's both crisp and deep, sounding meaty and solid, without annoying resonances or high pitched noises. That about right?

That's right.

We call it the Topre "Thock". It's the sound of a bottoming out Topre switch. It's the sound of the slider hitting a rubber surface over the PCB.

High pitched noises created by plastic hitting plastic or plastic hitting metal is generally annoying. That's what O-rings or landing pads under the keycaps suppress in Cherry MX keyboards (on the downstroke). On Topre keyboards, that's what we use landing pads for, but this time inside the switches, and it mutes the upstroke.

The "Thock" should not sound hollow either. That's why I add padding inside Topre boards.

This deep and silky sound, together with the tactile dome collapse, is the strong point of the Topre keyboards.

Disclaimer: I love Cherry MX and ALPS keyboards, too, but they sound really different.

You know, I really wanted to like my Novatouch. But after using the FC660C, it just didn't have that "high class" thock. Ahh well, I am probably just spoiled.

[FrostyToast]

Is there any real difference between say the sound of GMK caps and BSP PBT on topre?

[Hypersphere]

@spiceBar: Apologies if I missed it, but are your RF 87u boards 45g or 55g? I have one of each, and it seems that the 45g is somewhat noisier with respect to the return-stroke clack. However, both RFs are sufficiently quiet that I feel no need to silence them.

[spiceBar]

My takeaway from all this, is that the most favored Topre sound (and arguably, all mechanical keyboards), is something similar to the "clop clop clop" sound of horse hooves, because it's both crisp and deep, sounding meaty and solid, without annoying resonances or high pitched noises. That about right?

That's right.

We call it the Topre "Thock". It's the sound of a bottoming out Topre switch. It's the sound of the slider hitting a rubber surface over the PCB.

High pitched noises created by plastic hitting plastic or plastic hitting metal is generally annoying. That's what O-rings or landing pads under the keycaps suppress in Cherry MX keyboards (on the downstroke). On Topre keyboards, that's what we use landing pads for, but this time inside the switches, and it mutes the upstroke.

The "Thock" should not sound hollow either. That's why I add padding inside Topre boards.

This deep and silky sound, together with the tactile dome collapse, is the strong point of the Topre keyboards.

Disclaimer: I love Cherry MX and ALPS keyboards, too, but they sound really different.

You know, I really wanted to like my Novatouch. But after using the FC660C, it just didn't have that "high class" thock. Ahh well, I am probably just spoiled.

Out of the box, the FC660C has a better Thock.

Once modded, the Novatouch's Thock is as good, or even better.

And I compare this to a modded FC660C. I own both, and I have modded both. The Novatouch is more tactile and has a deeper Thock than the FC660C.

Both are great anyway.