Author Topic: question/comment for the ALPS experts  (Read 3815 times)

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Offline Special K

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question/comment for the ALPS experts
« on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 13:12:59 »
I have the following keyboards in front of me and thought I'd do a side-by-side comparison of switch feel:

Leading Edge DC2014 (blue alps)
Northgate Omnikey 101 (white alps)
Matias Tactile Pro (Matias tactile switch)

Here are my impressions:

1. I have read that blue alps are "smoother" than white alps; based on my brief test, it's difficult to tell whether they are smoother or lighter, but it's definitely one of the two (or possibly both), although only slightly so.

2. The Matias switches have a slightly softer click than either the complicated white or blue alps (but see point 3)

3. The Matias switches have an inconsistent click based on where you hit the key - striking the key dead center produces the normal click, but striking it off to the side produces a softer click or even no click in some cases; in contrast, the white and blue alps produce a uniform click across keys and with no dependence on where you strike the key

4. Interestingly I think my Cherry MX blues have a slightly louder click than any of the ALPS boards I tested, although I prefer the lower pitched ALPS click

5. Overall I'd say the blue alps are my favorite

I know some other users on here prefer ALPS boards and have written a lot about them.  Do my observations agree with your impressions?
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LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline chyros

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 13:53:29 »
I like to think I'm getting to know Alps pretty well by this point xD . So here's my $0.02:

1) Between white and blue Alps of comparable condition, blues are noticeably smoother. Blues are older though, so it's not easy to get some in good condition.

2) Yes, but the sound is quite different. Much shallower, and rattlier than either, I'd say.

3) Alps in good condition are uniform, but not necessarily wherever you hit the key. That particular bit is a strength of Cherry switches especially.

4) I'm not sure which are louder. Cherries are generally considered much more annoying though. Also, Alps blues aren't as loud as whites (both pretty loud though).

5) Definitely agree :D .
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Offline Hak Foo

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 13:59:04 »
I've not had a blue Alps board to compare.  I liked the new simplified white ALPS in an old Solidtek ASK-6600, and some old Focus boards when I got it, and I like the Matias whites.  OTOH, old, dirty simplified whites are pretty noxious and scratchy.

I'm curious-- Matias promised +/-5 grams force consistency, while the data sheets for old ALPS switches was +/-15 or so.... does this result in a more consistent feel on a board-wide basis?
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Offline Snarfangel

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 14:03:23 »
I have the following keyboards in front of me and thought I'd do a side-by-side comparison of switch feel:

Leading Edge DC2014 (blue alps)
Northgate Omnikey 101 (white alps)
Matias Tactile Pro (Matias tactile switch)

Here are my impressions:

1. I have read that blue alps are "smoother" than white alps; based on my brief test, it's difficult to tell whether they are smoother or lighter, but it's definitely one of the two (or possibly both), although only slightly so.

2. The Matias switches have a slightly softer click than either the complicated white or blue alps (but see point 3)

3. The Matias switches have an inconsistent click based on where you hit the key - striking the key dead center produces the normal click, but striking it off to the side produces a softer click or even no click in some cases; in contrast, the white and blue alps produce a uniform click across keys and with no dependence on where you strike the key

4. Interestingly I think my Cherry MX blues have a slightly louder click than any of the ALPS boards I tested, although I prefer the lower pitched ALPS click

5. Overall I'd say the blue alps are my favorite


Just to make sure I understand, you prefer blue Alps over any of the Cherry switches?

(If I ignore buckling springs, I flip between Cherry blues and browns. BS's are too much fun to compare, though they tend to irritate coworkers. I don't have any experience with Alps, so if they feel nicer, I may have to hunt for a new keyboard to try.)

Offline Special K

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 14:05:12 »
3) Alps in good condition are uniform, but not necessarily wherever you hit the key. That particular bit is a strength of Cherry switches especially.

My Matias board is brand new, yet the switches produce an inconsistent click depending on where you hit them (and which switch you hit).  I have no idea how used the Omnikey and DC2014 are, but they seem much more uniform to me.

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Filco FKBN104M/EB2
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Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline chyros

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 16:38:49 »
5. Overall I'd say the blue alps are my favorite


Just to make sure I understand, you prefer blue Alps over any of the Cherry switches?

(If I ignore buckling springs, I flip between Cherry blues and browns. BS's are too much fun to compare, though they tend to irritate coworkers. I don't have any experience with Alps, so if they feel nicer, I may have to hunt for a new keyboard to try.)

If he does, I'd agree. Personally I wouldn't recommend ANY Cherry switches except for the linear ones.

Buckling springs feel much closer to Alps than to Cherries, I'd say. The weight, tactility and loudness are not all that far off. Alps as a whole are somewhat hard to compare to BS though because there's only one or two varieties of BS and ****tons of different Alps switches.

3) Alps in good condition are uniform, but not necessarily wherever you hit the key. That particular bit is a strength of Cherry switches especially.

My Matias board is brand new, yet the switches produce an inconsistent click depending on where you hit them (and which switch you hit).  I have no idea how used the Omnikey and DC2014 are, but they seem much more uniform to me.
Might have something to do with the simplified contact mechanism in Matiases, or the increased key wobble compared to SKCMs. 

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Offline Special K

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 17:33:46 »
I have the following keyboards in front of me and thought I'd do a side-by-side comparison of switch feel:

Leading Edge DC2014 (blue alps)
Northgate Omnikey 101 (white alps)
Matias Tactile Pro (Matias tactile switch)

Here are my impressions:

1. I have read that blue alps are "smoother" than white alps; based on my brief test, it's difficult to tell whether they are smoother or lighter, but it's definitely one of the two (or possibly both), although only slightly so.

2. The Matias switches have a slightly softer click than either the complicated white or blue alps (but see point 3)

3. The Matias switches have an inconsistent click based on where you hit the key - striking the key dead center produces the normal click, but striking it off to the side produces a softer click or even no click in some cases; in contrast, the white and blue alps produce a uniform click across keys and with no dependence on where you strike the key

4. Interestingly I think my Cherry MX blues have a slightly louder click than any of the ALPS boards I tested, although I prefer the lower pitched ALPS click

5. Overall I'd say the blue alps are my favorite


Just to make sure I understand, you prefer blue Alps over any of the Cherry switches?

(If I ignore buckling springs, I flip between Cherry blues and browns. BS's are too much fun to compare, though they tend to irritate coworkers. I don't have any experience with Alps, so if they feel nicer, I may have to hunt for a new keyboard to try.)


In an ideal world where every switch type was equally available in any keyboard layout, then yes, I would prefer blue alps over any others.  Unfortunately blue alps have long since been discontinued and are somewhat difficult to find.  When a blue alps board does pop up, it tends to sell for a premium price.  Given that, my daily driver board uses cherry MX blues.  The MX blue is a good switch IMO; my only real complaint is that the click sound they make sounds cheap and toy-like compared to the alps click.  If cherry fixed the MX blue switch to click like an alps blue or white, I'd probably conclude that going after alps boards probably wasn't worth the trouble.
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Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline RickyJ

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 23:53:49 »
I've been dailying my Nan-Tan with blue Alps for the last few months, despite it being hugely fullsize and leaving me with little room for my mouse.  Comparing to my Poker (blues with clear springs, stickered, dampened plate, etc), I still come back to Cherry click switches sound like child's toys, and the tactility isn't nearly the same.  And I did notice a difference between the blue and white complicated Alps (my Nan-Tan had whites originally), after careful cleaning.

I don't have any Matias switches to compare to, only Alps complicated blue/white/green and the comparatively junky clones that came in my Minitouch.
Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline jacobolus

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 26 April 2015, 00:08:37 »
1. I have read that blue alps are "smoother" than white alps; based on my brief test, it's difficult to tell whether they are smoother or lighter, but it's definitely one of the two (or possibly both), although only slightly so.
Yep, both smoother and lighter. The difference is relatively subtle though.

Quote
3. The Matias switches have an inconsistent click based on where you hit the key - striking the key dead center produces the normal click, but striking it off to the side produces a softer click or even no click in some cases; in contrast, the white and blue alps produce a uniform click across keys and with no dependence on where you strike the key
In my experience, all clicky/tactile Alps switches have a slight inconsistency in click w/r/t press angle, which is detectable if you lean in close and listen/feel very carefully. It’s definitely much more pronounced on simplified Alps switches and various Alps clones, including Matias switches, than on “complicated” Alps switches. Complicated Alps switches have a substantial metal leaf on either side of the slider, which stabilize it laterally, redirecting angled presses downward a bit. They also have tighter tolerances between the slider and housing.

Quote
4. Interestingly I think my Cherry MX blues have a slightly louder click than any of the ALPS boards I tested, although I prefer the lower pitched ALPS click
Loudness is hard to rank, because the sounds are quite different, and different vibration frequencies propagate more effectively through the case/table/&c. The material and design of the case makes a dramatic difference in the sound, as does the material used for the keycaps, the plate and PCB, etc.

A loose cherry MX blue switch with no keycap, outside the context of a keyboard, makes hardly any sound at all. Add a medium-thick ABS keycap, and mount it to the right PCB, in a hollowish plastic case placed directly on the right wooden desk, and the sound will carry across the neighborhood.

Offline Special K

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 26 April 2015, 01:48:08 »
I've been dailying my Nan-Tan with blue Alps for the last few months, despite it being hugely fullsize and leaving me with little room for my mouse.  Comparing to my Poker (blues with clear springs, stickered, dampened plate, etc), I still come back to Cherry click switches sound like child's toys, and the tactility isn't nearly the same.  And I did notice a difference between the blue and white complicated Alps (my Nan-Tan had whites originally), after careful cleaning.

I don't have any Matias switches to compare to, only Alps complicated blue/white/green and the comparatively junky clones that came in my Minitouch.

Does the Nan Tan look like this (I just used google image search):

Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 26 April 2015, 11:30:14 »
Quote from: jacobolus
Loudness is hard to rank, because the sounds are quite different

Just out of curiosity, how difficult would it be for Cherry to redesign the MX blue switch to have a lower pitched click?  Would it require completely redesigning the switch from scratch, or just a minor modification?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline chyros

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 26 April 2015, 12:30:08 »
Quote from: jacobolus
Loudness is hard to rank, because the sounds are quite different

Just out of curiosity, how difficult would it be for Cherry to redesign the MX blue switch to have a lower pitched click?  Would it require completely redesigning the switch from scratch, or just a minor modification?
I suppose if they made the jacket hammer out of (insulated) metal rather than plastic, that would help. It wouldn't be trivial though. 
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Offline RickyJ

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 01:30:50 »
I've been dailying my Nan-Tan with blue Alps for the last few months, despite it being hugely fullsize and leaving me with little room for my mouse.  Comparing to my Poker (blues with clear springs, stickered, dampened plate, etc), I still come back to Cherry click switches sound like child's toys, and the tactility isn't nearly the same.  And I did notice a difference between the blue and white complicated Alps (my Nan-Tan had whites originally), after careful cleaning.

I don't have any Matias switches to compare to, only Alps complicated blue/white/green and the comparatively junky clones that came in my Minitouch.

Does the Nan Tan look like this (I just used google image search):

Here's mine, cleaned up and a PS/2 cable swapped in too (had to compare pinouts and move wires, of course).

Currently GMMK Pro: lubed 68g U4T, FR4 plate, extra gaskets, etc

Offline Herothereu

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 16:38:44 »
Copy Alps like the Matias design tend to be not as good.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:11:05 »
Copy Alps like the Matias design tend to be not as good.

I'd love to hear your argument about the Matias switches not being as good.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:15:13 »
They’re definitely cheaper to produce than complicated Alps switches were: there are fewer parts inside.

On the flip side, I like them more than medium-to-poor condition Alps switches, and they’re a lot easier and cheaper to obtain than old Alps switches that need to be desoldered from scavenged boards from the 80s.

I’ll happily take mint condition blue, orange, or green Alps switches over the Matias equivalents, but those typically end up costing at least $60 per keyboard, and then require a bunch of work to get the switches out.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:21:37 »
I agree that I'd rather have mint blue, orange, or green Alps but I definitely wouldn't say that Matias switches aren't bad. I think they hold their own and I'm quite fond of the click Matias switches.

Offline chyros

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 17:25:55 »
Copy Alps like the Matias design tend to be not as good.

I'd love to hear your argument about the Matias switches not being as good.
Sound is much more rattly, and they wobble much more. Also, the bottom part of the keystroke feels rather unclean due to the design of the contact leaf. It's so strong actually that it has two tactile points, so it feels a little bit like a Cherry switch IMO.

Not saying that's the be-all and end-all, but they are arguments that someone might use to make that point. I really like Matiases, myself, but I don't think I prefer them over SKCMs. It's much easier to get good condition Matiases than good condition Alps, though.
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Offline Venatorious

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 22:24:29 »
Anybody here use tactile brown alps? That is amazing. 80g switches, and you get a nice thunk. I highly recommend these.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 23:36:08 »
Brown Alps are too stiff for me. I know several people who like them though. (But I’m not sure I can trust any of them: all Topre fans.)

Offline Dihedral

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 28 April 2015, 02:01:56 »
Blues are older though, so it's not easy to get some in good condition.

Nice subtle bragging there ;)

Offline chyros

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 28 April 2015, 03:01:50 »
Blues are older though, so it's not easy to get some in good condition.

Nice subtle bragging there ;)
Well yeah, I got lucky :p . But let's be honest, it doesn't happen THAT often :p .
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 April 2015, 03:10:16 by chyros »
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Offline zombimuncha

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 14:05:49 »
Copy Alps like the Matias design tend to be not as good.

I'd love to hear your argument about the Matias switches not being as good.
Sound is much more rattly, and they wobble much more. Also, the bottom part of the keystroke feels rather unclean due to the design of the contact leaf. It's so strong actually that it has two tactile points, so it feels a little bit like a Cherry switch IMO.

Not saying that's the be-all and end-all, but they are arguments that someone might use to make that point. I really like Matiases, myself, but I don't think I prefer them over SKCMs. It's much easier to get good condition Matiases than good condition Alps, though.

I can only feel the bump from the contact leaf on the Matias Quiet switch. Can't feel it at all on the clicky. And it's only obvious when either: 1) you remove the tactile/click leaf, or 2) you REALLY try to feel it.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: question/comment for the ALPS experts
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 14:11:23 »
Copy Alps like the Matias design tend to be not as good.

I'd love to hear your argument about the Matias switches not being as good.
Sound is much more rattly, and they wobble much more. Also, the bottom part of the keystroke feels rather unclean due to the design of the contact leaf. It's so strong actually that it has two tactile points, so it feels a little bit like a Cherry switch IMO.

Not saying that's the be-all and end-all, but they are arguments that someone might use to make that point. I really like Matiases, myself, but I don't think I prefer them over SKCMs. It's much easier to get good condition Matiases than good condition Alps, though.

I can only feel the bump from the contact leaf on the Matias Quiet switch. Can't feel it at all on the clicky. And it's only obvious when either: 1) you remove the tactile/click leaf, or 2) you REALLY try to feel it.

Agreed. It's not that pronounced.

Anybody here use tactile brown alps? That is amazing. 80g switches, and you get a nice thunk. I highly recommend these.

They're great. Just hard to find in a large quanity.