Scoops vs. Bars vs. Nipples Discussion Thread

[hwood34]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

[Giorgio]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.

[hwood34]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.

The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam

[Giorgio]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.

The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam

You just focused on the least relevant part of his post. If you need to criticize him, focus on the main part, not on the  "as if this wasn't enough" part. His opinion is in the first part of his post

[hwood34]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.

The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam

You just focused on the least relevant part of his post. If you need to criticize him, focus on the main part, not on the  "as if this wasn't enough" part. His opinion is in the first part of his post

Why would I focus on that part? It's an opinion; scoops aren't prominent enough for him. Am I supposed to tell him his preferences are wrong?

[clacktalk]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

You can't invalidate an argument by making fun of a part of it, excluding the premise and the context. He added that all keyboards have bars, but he said it ad abundantiam, to abundance.

The first part of his statement was just his opinion on bars vs. scoops. The 99% was trying to say bars must be inherently better because of the number of keyboards that use them. not ad abundantiam

You just focused on the least relevant part of his post. If you need to criticize him, focus on the main part, not on the  "as if this wasn't enough" part. His opinion is in the first part of his post

nice kritik

i can tell you're very good at debating and arguing about things

[Polymer]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.   

99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.


So then the next argument is "Well this is for the enthusiasts community"
Most high quality keycap sets use bars....ALL Topre keycaps use bars (today anyways).
I think you also said there are only a few people that prefer bars..we know that is not true...

[hwood34]

I tried scoop, too subtle for me to nice.  Haven't get to try nipple yet.

So bar for me.  And I'm pretty sure 99% of the keyboards use bar for a reason.

I'm sure 99% of boards use rubberdome for a reason

So then the next argument is "Well this is for the enthusiasts community"
Most high quality keycap sets use bars....ALL Topre keycaps use bars (today anyways).

OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?

[hwood34]

And just quickly going through and counting:

Scoops: 23
Bars: 14

and for fun:

avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686

[Polymer]

And just quickly going through and counting:

Scoops: 23
Bars: 14

and for fun:

avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686

And?  That means what?  That more people like scoops?  Or more in this thread?  And the post count means what?  That their preferences are more important?  Or they are somehow blessed with greater knowledge so their preferences count for more?  We know none of that is true..

But let's just say that is representative of the whole community...I'm good with that.

So 38% of the community prefers bars.  So in any given group buy, 38% would prefer bars.  Do 38% have any of the funky layouts?  For example, 1800 support...not even close.  One thing you didn't seem to notice was that some people actually said exactly what I was saying...A majority of people haven't even used GMK...so they can't prefer scoops, they haven't used them before..

Was it you or someone else said there was only myself and Giorgio?  Regardless, the point was there are more than you think...why not just admit that to be the case?

[hwood34]

And?  That means what?  That more people like scoops?  Or more in this thread?  And the post count means what?  That their preferences are more important?  Or they are somehow blessed with greater knowledge so their preferences count for more?  We know none of that is true..

and for fun:

[Polymer]

Because you weren't really trying to make a point in that post..

Right...

Passive aggressive much?

At least man up and agree there are more users that want bars than you thought...

[hwood34]

aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all .  I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form

[Air tree]

I just tried scoops a few days ago.


I like scoops.

[hwood34]

Was it you or someone else said there was only myself and Giorgio?

No but it was me that told you to take your *****ing out of every IC thread

[Polymer]

OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?

IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT

Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?

[hwood34]

OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?

IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT

Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?

Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoops

[hwood34]

I'd be interested to see if an F/J bars pack was to be included in a GB if it would actually tip. Maybe we'll see sometime

[Polymer]

OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?

IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT

Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?

Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoops

It isn't 3.  Cherry is GMK...they sold their stuff to GMK. JT hasn't even been released yet, it is brand new and I'm hoping these are great just as everyone else is. 

So I count one and hopefully one more.  But up until just recently, there has ONLY been one.   

[hwood34]

OK so topre uses bars and what other high quality sets? Cherry? GMK? JTK? BSP?

IMSTO...BSP uses a mix of stuff.
Ducky Thick PBT

Cherry=GMK
JTK hasn't even come out with theirs and they're a GMK clone right?

Yup, so the three best ABS options all use scoops

It isn't 3.  Cherry is GMK...they sold their stuff to GMK. JT hasn't even been released yet, it is brand new and I'm hoping these are great just as everyone else is. 

So I count one and hopefully one more.  But up until just recently, there has ONLY been one.

OG Cherry sets count as one source of keycaps. Then GMK thought that there would be enough people interested in everything Cherry, including scoops, that it would be profitable. I count that as two different sources for caps.
So still, the best sources for ABS caps use scoops, and the best sources for PBT use a pretty even mix of scoops, bars, nipples, and scoops + bars. So no, "most" high quality cap makers don't just use bars

[Polymer]

Most do.

Cherry, what existed, isn't a source. But GMK IS Cherry.  It is actually the same source.  If you sell your business to someone else it is still the same source. 

That is ONE.

Topre Keycaps, IMSTO, Ducky...even some Vortex (although a lot suck) are all bars.
GMK = 1.  JT will soon hopefully add another. 
BSP is a mix. 

3-3.5 sources of only bars
1 source of scoops
1 source of mixed

Simple numbers there.

And also, I'm not going in every IC and talking about it...you're mixing me up with Giorgio.  Either way, more users prefer bars than you thought.  There are tons of users not even commenting because they have never used scoops which makes it impossible to prefer them. 

[hwood34]

Like I said, I'd like to see an extras of bars actually pass in a GB and to see how many people here are actively buying into GBs. Also, you're including Vortex in the list of higher quality sets? I'd rather include JT caps, that I feel as though one could consider high quality sets just from the pictures even if there are some minimal defects from it being a first round. And what BSP sets uses bars? I just remember sets with nipples, which it's obvious very few people prefer. Gateron caps are also mixed. Lynn caps use scoops

Why does the point about those who haven't tried scoops yet matter? Obviously lots of people new to this hobby will be fine with bars now seeing as they haven't had the chance to use scoops. Does that mean that they will always prefer bars? No. I wouldn't include those people in the list of bar-preferring users for that reason anyway.

And I did, along with others, tell you and giorgio to take the discussion out of the SoWaRe thread.

[Giorgio]

aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all .  I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form

My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.

1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy a set
3. Conclude that those who like bars are too cheap to buy gmk sets

[azhdar]

aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all .  I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form

My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.

1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?

mfw when TA reached 1K orders without bars :



mfw when Hyperfuse reached 600 (700?) orders without bars:



do I need to mention the Dolch addon with bars in it ?

[Giorgio]

aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all .  I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form

My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.

1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?

mfw when TA reached 1K orders without bars :

Show Image

mfw when Hyperfuse reached 600 (700?) orders without bars:

Show Image

do I need to mention the Dolch addon with bars in it ?

Show Image

Those numbers mean nothing.

Did the dolch add-on cost $1? Because that's the cost of two keys.

Scoops are often not mentioned in the description of the GB, so maybe someone missed it. I nearly missed it.

[hwood34]

aight man, I'm just interested in the numbers is all .  I'd just like to see how many people in this thread actively participate in GBs. Maybe this calls for a nice little form

My only gb was for modifiers. No scoops there.

1. Make a gb that includes only scoops.
2. See that those who like bars don't buy it.
3. (Smaller) profit?

mfw when TA reached 1K orders without bars :

Show Image

mfw when Hyperfuse reached 600 (700?) orders without bars:

Show Image

do I need to mention the Dolch addon with bars in it ?

Show Image

Those numbers mean nothing.

Did the dolch add-on cost $1? Because that's the cost of two keys.

Scoops are often not mentioned in the description of the GB, so maybe someone missed it. I nearly missed it.

It's not mentioned because they assume you know that GMK uses scoops. It's also obvious in the renders. The cost would be closer to $2 for two keys. An add on for just bar keys wouldn't tip anyway at the MOQ it would require for GMK to do bars anyway

[rowdy]

And just quickly going through and counting:

Scoops: 23
Bars: 14

and for fun:

avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686

You removed me, didn't you?

I voted for bars.

[Polymer]

Why does the point about those who haven't tried scoops yet matter? Obviously lots of people new to this hobby will be fine with bars now seeing as they haven't had the chance to use scoops. Does that mean that they will always prefer bars? No. I wouldn't include those people in the list of bar-preferring users for that reason anyway.

Of course they prefer bars..they can't prefer scoops because they haven't tried them.  Of course, AFTER they try scoops they might..but certainly they do not dislike bars...

And I did, along with others, tell you and giorgio to take the discussion out of the SoWaRe thread.

It was suggested it and it got moved.  You act like you mentioned it multiple times but really, the escalation was because he asked that people consider it in the GB and then it degenerated into a "scoops for life" discussion...His ask is a legit one...

But the point remains...plenty of people do prefer bars..that's really the only point.  It isn't just a few..there are actual users that prefer them..more so than say, have 1800 keyboards...

There are active people buying some sets..some buy GMK even if they don't have bars...I don't mind scoops, I just don't prefer them.  And remember, no one is asking to get rid of scoops, they're just suggesting that maybe two more keys of bars can be included in the extras slots...

[azhdar]

Offering additionnal keys to support additional layout that are common:
-1800
-75%
- HHKB
- ISO
will always be considered before adding "cosmetics" changes to some keys (please not the quotation marks).

What I consider cosmetic change is the same keycap offered with:
- bar/nip/scoops variations,
- color variation

Simply because those are what attracts buyers, and they are needed, since we work on very tight MOQ.

Remember I'm talking GMK here.

[Polymer]

Offering additionnal keys to support additional layout that are common:
-1800
-75%
- HHKB
- ISO
will always be considered before adding "cosmetics" changes to some keys (please not the quotation marks).

What I consider cosmetic change is the same keycap offered with:
- bar/nip/scoops variations,
- color variation

Simply because those are what attracts buyers, and they are needed, since we work on very tight MOQ.

Remember I'm talking GMK here.

Bars/Scoops are not cosmetic..they're feel which I'd argue is the most important aspect.  It is definitely not a LOOK but a feel. 
Color variation is cosmetic. 

As far as meeting tight MOQs...I think the formula Bunny did on Hyperfuse worked quite well.  It is an all or nothing since most of the extras would never hit their MOQ. 

I'm all for extra layouts..especially the very common ones..ISO is a must...WKL is a must....1800?  There are barely any users with them...HHKB?  Not many either...maybe 75%. You also have to consider how many keys you need to add for the changes....

[azhdar]

Offering additionnal keys to support additional layout that are common:
-1800
-75%
- HHKB
- ISO
will always be considered before adding "cosmetics" changes to some keys (please not the quotation marks).

What I consider cosmetic change is the same keycap offered with:
- bar/nip/scoops variations,
- color variation

Simply because those are what attracts buyers, and they are needed, since we work on very tight MOQ.

Remember I'm talking GMK here.

Bars/Scoops are not cosmetic..they're feel which I'd argue is the most important aspect.  It is definitely not a LOOK but a feel. 
Color variation is cosmetic. 

As far as meeting tight MOQs...I think the formula Bunny did on Hyperfuse worked quite well.  It is an all or nothing since most of the extras would never hit their MOQ. 

I'm all for extra layouts..especially the very common ones..ISO is a must...WKL is a must....1800?  There are barely any users with them...HHKB?  Not many either...maybe 75%. You also have to consider how many keys you need to add for the changes....

This is why I put cosmetic in between quotation marks.
My point is bar/nip/scoop variations don't help populate a board with key where additional keys to support layouts do.

1800 sees a lot of users atm and more will come when the Kin25 GB will finish, that's the reason people want support for this atm. Don't know how many keys.
HHKB because of Gon HHKB & Viper, Kmac happy .... , and it's like 3-4keys for it I belive .
75% is like 3-4keys aswell.

[baldgye]

Why does the point about those who haven't tried scoops yet matter? Obviously lots of people new to this hobby will be fine with bars now seeing as they haven't had the chance to use scoops. Does that mean that they will always prefer bars? No. I wouldn't include those people in the list of bar-preferring users for that reason anyway.

Of course they prefer bars..they can't prefer scoops because they haven't tried them. 

I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.
A preference is when you like something OVER liking something else, how can you form a meaningful opinion over something you've never tried, especially when it relates to a personal opinion over how it feels when used?

For example;
I prefer scoops, because my fingers rest/hit the top portion of the key cap, thus missing the bar making it utterly useless. And I find the nipple's to be uncomfortable for longer typing sessions.
I came to this conclusion and preference, having tried all three. Had I not tried all three I would have been unable to form an opinion and thus unable to form a preference.

Of course, AFTER they try scoops they might..but certainly they do not dislike bars...

Please, Hoff or another mod pm this chap and ask him to stop spouting literal **** 'thinly disguised' as a debate/discussion.

[Polymer]

I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.

I said they prefer bars.  I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried.  You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it.  You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it. 

I'm not sure if you really understand that or not or you're just not reading it correctly.  You're calling me stupid yet you haven't read what I wrote. 

A preference is when you like something OVER liking something else, how can you form a meaningful opinion over something you've never tried, especially when it relates to a personal opinion over how it feels when used?

Did I say that?  I said they prefer bars.  If you actually look at least one other person on here, they said they prefer bars..and have never tried scoops so they can't say they'd prefer those. 

I did not say they prefer bars over scoops.  Scoops isn't even a choice for someone that hasn't tried it.  But their FJ marking preference is something they CAN have. 

Please, Hoff or another mod pm this chap and ask him to stop spouting literal **** 'thinly disguised' as a debate/discussion.

Really?  Because I only saw you call someone stupid because you misread what they wrote.  What's funny is people are getting upset because they're getting smashed in this discussion.

Facts are facts...There are people that actually do prefer bars.
There are more manufacturers of quality keycaps with bars (at least at this point in time).
Topre users all are at least tolerant of bars as that is all they have today (not counting the recent addition of mx/topre sliders). 

Why have a thread if you can't deal with a discussion about it?  Or if you can't, don't look at it...

[baldgye]

I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.

I said they prefer bars.  I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried.  You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it.  You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it. 

I'm not sure if you really understand that or not or you're just not reading it correctly.  You're calling me stupid yet you haven't read what I wrote. 

A preference is when you like something OVER liking something else, how can you form a meaningful opinion over something you've never tried, especially when it relates to a personal opinion over how it feels when used?

Did I say that?  I said they prefer bars.  If you actually look at least one other person on here, they said they prefer bars..and have never tried scoops so they can't say they'd prefer those. 

I did not say they prefer bars over scoops.  Scoops isn't even a choice for someone that hasn't tried it.  But their FJ marking preference is something they CAN have. 

Please, Hoff or another mod pm this chap and ask him to stop spouting literal **** 'thinly disguised' as a debate/discussion.

Really?  Because I only saw you call someone stupid because you misread what they wrote.  What's funny is people are getting upset because they're getting smashed in this discussion.

Facts are facts...There are people that actually do prefer bars.
There are more manufacturers of quality keycaps with bars (at least at this point in time).
Topre users all are at least tolerant of bars as that is all they have today (not counting the recent addition of mx/topre sliders). 

Why have a thread if you can't deal with a discussion about it?  Or if you can't, don't look at it...

pls mods

Seriously pls mods (see I can edit too)

[Polymer]

Seriously...you made a mistake..own up to it. It isn't a big deal, you just read what I wrote wrong but looks like you can't even admit that...

[Polymer]

This is why I put cosmetic in between quotation marks.
My point is bar/nip/scoop variations don't help populate a board with key where additional keys to support layouts do.

1800 sees a lot of users atm and more will come when the Kin25 GB will finish, that's the reason people want support for this atm. Don't know how many keys.
HHKB because of Gon HHKB & Viper, Kmac happy .... , and it's like 3-4keys for it I belive .
75% is like 3-4keys aswell.

You might be right...So far only one person has flat out said they wouldn't buy a set because of no bars.  Then again, for GMK, most of the mod extras haven't done well (probably not even produced). It has only been recently where we've done extra layouts that are included...It could very well be that 75% support adds many more users..not sure if that is true but could be. 
I do agree with you on the cosmetic thing (color wise).  There have been enough other keys that can be added to a set where it doesn't absolutely need to be included...

I don't agree with you that there are a lot of 1800 users...Even with Kin's GB (which I've been following closely) there aren't many he's sending out...not many at all....Kin25 said around 40...which isn't all GH but GH+KDL+EC....and I like 1800s....but I don't there are a ton of people with them...

[hwood34]

I just want to quote this, to highlight the immense level of stupidity that's been going on for the last page or so. You can't prefer one thing over another, if you haven't tried either of those things.

I said they prefer bars.  I didn't say one over another, I said they currently prefer bars because of course, they can't prefer something they haven't tried.  You can of course prefer one thing that you know because you know it.  You CANNOT prefer Scoops if you've never tried it. 

When you say they prefer it, that literally means they like bars OVER the over options.

[hwood34]

And just quickly going through and counting:

Scoops: 23
Bars: 14

and for fun:

avg post count (removing one outlier on each end)
scoops: 2911
bars: 1686

You removed me, didn't you?

I voted for bars.

You did nearly double the average

[hwood34]

Most do.

Cherry, what existed, isn't a source. But GMK IS Cherry.  It is actually the same source.  If you sell your business to someone else it is still the same source. 

That is ONE.

Topre Keycaps, IMSTO, Ducky...even some Vortex (although a lot suck) are all bars.
GMK = 1.  JT will soon hopefully add another. 
BSP is a mix. 

3-3.5 sources of only bars
1 source of scoops
1 source of mixed

Simple numbers there.

Scoops: GMK, JTK, Lynn
Scoops/Bars: Gateron
Nipples: BSP
Bars: Topre, IMSTO, Ducky

And because of my point before, I'd still include both GMK and Cherry.

What's funny is people are getting upset because they're getting smashed in this discussion.

Are they now?

[Giorgio]

JTK, Lynn, pardon my ignorance, but is the business of these people/ small industries remotely comparable to gateron gmk etc?

[hwood34]

JTK, Lynn, pardon my ignorance, but is the business of these people/ small industries remotely comparable to gateron gmk etc?

Lynn is smallish still, doesn't mean the quality isn't high. JTK is new but not a small scale operation. Most of GMK and Gateron's business isn't in keyboards, this is peanuts for them. So it's not that huge of a size difference

[Karura]

99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.   

99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.

Nice statistics! I would love to see some research/data to back these claims.

As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.

So could you also tell me how mentioning price is relevant to the whole argument?

[Polymer]

When you say they prefer it, that literally means they like bars OVER the over options.

No it doesn't...

If you have 10 options..and you prefer 1 of them that doesn't mean you have to have tried all 10 to have a preference.  If you want to take that to a further extreme, if there are a million options, you can still have preferences even though you haven't tried every single one. 

You're reading it like that..but I've even explained it.. Some people haven't used scoops so they can't have the option of preferring them...But from what they've tried they can certainly prefer bars.  I even went as far as saying those that haven't tried them might actually prefer scoops but they haven't tried them yet so they can't have that as a preference. 

[Polymer]

99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.   

99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.

As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.

So you're saying nipples are more expensive to make?  No right..should be the same.  What about scoops?  Doesn't look like it makes a huge difference either right? 

So using bars isn't because it is the cheapest option...So why do they use bars?

[Polymer]

Scoops: GMK, JTK, Lynn
Scoops/Bars: Gateron
Nipples: BSP
Bars: Topre, IMSTO, Ducky

And because of my point before, I'd still include both GMK and Cherry.

Does Cherry make keycaps any longer?  My understanding is they don't.  They sold that business to GMK with the actual equipment. 
JT which I hope is successful, is brand new and not even out there yet...Not even going to count Lynn...If you're going to count Lynn, might as well count Vortex then..which makes some crap keycaps and some good ones...

Are they now?

Completely.  A week ago you thought there were only two people that actually preferred bars to scoops (You probably felt there were a few more)...certainly you didn't think this thread would be almost 40% for bars....and I'll be honest, I'm surprised there were that many respondents...

I mean, why not just admit..there are more than you actually thought...rather than try to come up with other excuses.....

[Karura]

99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.   

99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.

As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.

So you're saying nipples are more expensive to make?  No right..should be the same.  What about scoops?  Doesn't look like it makes a huge difference either right? 

So using bars isn't because it is the cheapest option...So why do they use bars?

Your argument has no merit. Bars were used by IBM and some other computer pioneers early on, and as a result, other manufacturers copied IBM and used bars. As to why certain manufacturers continue to use bars after all these years? My guess would be because people are familiar with it, and they rather play it safe than innovate and use a new homing method.

It is absolutely not due to a cost issue. The fact that you would bring up "cost" just shows me that you have absolutely no experience/understanding/knowledge of the manufacturing process. (I would read up on plastic injection mould making and what not instead of spreading misinformation).

I would appreciate it if you stuck to using facts and real knowledge to debate, otherwise I don't see how anyone can take you seriously if you continue to use false statistics and claims to back your personal opinion. It's really quite unprofessional.

[Polymer]

99% of keyboards use rubberdomes because it is cheap to make.   

99% of keyboards don't use bars because it is cheaper they do it because that is what has become the de facto standard.

As someone who has dabbled in manufacturing, and actually have spoken to keyboard manufacturers in person, I know how keycaps are made, and adding bars does not change the cost of manufacturing the keycap at all. It is merely a design element that makes absolutely NO difference to the cost.

So you're saying nipples are more expensive to make?  No right..should be the same.  What about scoops?  Doesn't look like it makes a huge difference either right? 

So using bars isn't because it is the cheapest option...So why do they use bars?

Your argument has no merit. Bars were used by IBM and some other computer pioneers early on, and as a result, other manufacturers copied IBM and used bars. As to why certain manufacturers continue to use bars after all these years? My guess would be because people are familiar with it, and they rather play it safe than innovate and use a new homing method.

It is absolutely not due to a cost issue. The fact that you would bring up "cost" just shows me that you have absolutely no experience/understanding/knowledge of the manufacturing process. (I would read up on plastic injection mould making and what not instead of spreading misinformation).

I would appreciate it if you stuck to using facts and real knowledge to debate, otherwise I don't see how anyone can take you seriously if you continue to use false statistics and claims to back your personal opinion. It's really quite unprofessional.

I know it isn't a cost issue.  I even said it wasn't.  My original post was probably worded funny but I flat out said, the reason they use bars is NOT because it is the cheapest option...it is a nothing cost.  So they'd using bars for another reason....The reason might be history, the reason might be common preference.  It doesn't really matter, it is on most of the keyboards out there.  The reason it is on there isn't because it is the cheapest option....

So what was wrong w/ the statistics?   99% of they keyboards do not use bars because they're the cheapest, they use them because that is just the de facto standard.

Is that incorrect in any way?  99% of the keyboards out there use bars...or more...

[clacktalk]

When you say they prefer it, that literally means they like bars OVER the over options.

No it doesn't...

If you have 10 options..and you prefer 1 of them that doesn't mean you have to have tried all 10 to have a preference.  If you want to take that to a further extreme, if there are a million options, you can still have preferences even though you haven't tried every single one. 

You're reading it like that..but I've even explained it.. Some people haven't used scoops so they can't have the option of preferring them...But from what they've tried they can certainly prefer bars.  I even went as far as saying those that haven't tried them might actually prefer scoops but they haven't tried them yet so they can't have that as a preference. 

stop being so heated and chill for a while so you can collect your thoughts. maybe reassess your defense for your sweet, precious barz

all this lowest common denominator talk is irrelevant. this thread is now cluttered with people telling other people to argue better and absolutely garbage points.

unless you're not taking this seriously and threadcrapping on purpose. trolling would actually make more sense than the dead horse you're beating.

but thank you all for not spamming up the ic threads. i appreciate that a lot.

[livingspeedbump]

SA deep dish are my personal favorite scoops.

SA nipples are my least favorite.

EDIT: just read back on the thread a bit, wow...

[wlhlm]

I like bars, bars+scoops is even better. I haven't tried Deep Dish SA yet, but Deep Dish DSA I don't like.