Author Topic: microsoft ergo layout  (Read 4512 times)

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Offline mrninhvn

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microsoft ergo layout
« on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:27:43 »
I am looking for keyboard layout similar to microsoft or logitech k860, can someone tell me where to look for this?

Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:36:20 »
full size or open to smaller versions?
mechanical or standard rubber dome / butterfly (low profile like your picture)?

- various versions of the alice layout
- or just go true split. keeb.io has a bunch of great kits
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:40:32 »
full size or open to smaller versions?
mechanical or standard rubber dome / butterfly (low profile like your picture)?

- various versions of the alice layout
- or just go true split. keeb.io has a bunch of great kits
I want to find a curved key layout, not just a bend like alice

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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:45:38 »
well that and the microsoft natural bend up in the middle, about the only ones that have any kind of curve (but concave) are the dactyl - manuform builds, based off of the keywells of the kinesis advantage.

there have been a couple people looking to make one but i don't think there's been any progress though. you could do more searching.

with your goal... i think a 3d printed shell & handwiring the switches would probably be your only option other than buying one of the current microsoft or logitech boards.

... or tenting a split keyboard...
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:49:34 by nevin »
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:50:39 »
well that and the microsoft natural bend up in the middle, about the only ones that have any kind of curve (but concave) are the dactyl - manuform builds, based off of the keywells of the kinesis advantage.

there have been a couple people looking to make one but i don't think there's been any progress though. you could do more searching.

with your goal... i think a 3d printed shell & handwiring the switches would probably be your only option other than buying one of the current microsoft or logitech boards.

... or tenting a split keyboard...
I want to find out is the curvature between the keycap, the keys are arranged like an arc

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Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 11:59:32 »
If you want mechanical:

Cloud 9: Commercial, full-size, fully split. Limited tenting. Looks fat.
Type K: Premium custom kit. 60% "Alice" layout but tented. Still in Interest Check stage.
KBDFans Mountain Ergo. Also premium custom 60% kit. Alice-like layout but not exact. Group buy in progress.

Or ... get a fully-split flat keyboard such as the a Dygma Raise, Kinesis Freestyle Pro, "Ultimate Hacking Keyboard" or similar and build something yourself that adds tenting, wrist rest and negative incline.

Alice is one piece and flat.
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:05:32 »
If you want mechanical:

Cloud 9: Commercial, full-size, fully split. Limited tenting. Looks fat.
Type K: Premium custom kit. 60% "Alice" layout but tented. Still in Interest Check stage.
KBDFans Mountain Ergo. Also premium custom 60% kit. Alice-like layout but not exact. Group buy in progress.

Or ... get a fully-split flat keyboard such as the a Dygma Raise, Kinesis Freestyle Pro, "Ultimate Hacking Keyboard" or similar and build something yourself that adds tenting, wrist rest and negative incline.

Alice is one piece and flat.
Hmm alice layout doesn't curve all columns like Microsoft keyboard

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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:08:10 »
the microsoft & logitech are just a split standard staggered that arch up in the middle

there are ones that have columnar stagger (keeb.io iris & many others)
there are ones that have columnar stagger as well as finger separation x-bows (but no middle arch)

closest you're probably going to get without building one form scratch or buying a microsoft & logitech is to do a split keyboard and tent them so the centers are higher than the outsides.

i've run my split board this way for a while and it's different to get used to but is prertty unique/interesting.
- also, if you have separation between the two halves of a split keyboard you won't want/need the angle (... alice... top edges pointing inwards)
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:14:29 »
the microsoft & logitech are just a split standard staggered that arch up in the middle

there are ones that have columnar stagger (keeb.io iris & many others)
there are ones that have columnar stagger as well as finger separation x-bows (but no middle arch)

closest you're probably going to get without building one form scratch or buying a microsoft & logitech is to do a split keyboard and tent them so the centers are higher than the outsides.

i've run my split board this way for a while and it's different to get used to but is prertty unique/interesting.
- also, if you have separation between the two halves of a split keyboard you won't want/need the angle (... alice... top edges pointing inwards)
It's not just split, it's curved

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« Last Edit: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:16:23 by mrninhvn »

Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:18:37 »
Quote
It's not just split, it's curved

yes, those two production keyboards are about the only two in existence that are like that.
Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (old, not in production anymore as far as i know)
Microsoft - Ergonomic Keyboard (low profile)
Logitech - ERGO K860 Ergonomic

.... they're not as "curved" as you think.
the x-bowes has the "curved" finger separation, and most report it as uncomfortable.

the other option is columnar stagger (a.k.a. the better "curve" for finger length)
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:23:35 by nevin »
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:23:41 »
yeah, I want to design a similar mechanical keyboard with that layout, alice layout is not good enough for me

Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:28:41 »
then you're starting from scratch

- buy one and use it for measurements
- 3d print a shell
- handwire the switches to a controller, use teensy ++2.0 if doing full size.

Some good handwiring articles:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87689.0
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=1067

use the dactyl manuforms as an example of how to print your shell
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:32:12 by nevin »
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Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:41:36 »
I want to find out is the curvature between the keycap, the keys are arranged like an arc
Microsoft and Logitech make custom keycaps specifically for those keyboards, while mechanical keyboards have to use standard keycaps, each with the same square footprint.

Many of these keyboards from Microsoft or clones of them from other brands are also a little weird also in that they often increase the row-stagger for the keys by curving the keys that way.
The "Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard" (the official name, without any "Natural", "Sculpt" or "Surface" brand) has a little less row-stagger than other Microsoft keyboards though.

I know of only two attempts of mechanical keyboards with standard keycaps that are actually curving the rows, and one of them is (yet) only a concept I made:

Since 2011, I've had an idea of improving the "symmetric stagger" layout by curving it a bit, but I didn't get the maths right until I revisited the idea in 2019. Then I made this sketch (generated from a Python script, and then edited in QCAD and The Gimp)
272182-0
The curvature is calculated procedurally, and with collision detection to make sure that the spacing does not get too small. However, the overall width each row needs to be a bit wider than standard just to facilitate the use of standard keycaps!
I built a mockup for it also, and defined the matrix and controller in KiCad, but I never decided on how to lay out the thumb keys, so this here is mostly an idea. I haven't worked on it for months now. Was supposed to be fully split and tented (along red lines), or as a compact option (without the parts outside the red lines).

Last fall there was the GB of the Sagittarius. Maybe it will come back. It is flat with no tenting.
The right side has neither fully straight columns nor retained row-stagger but something in-between. Overall it is in-effect a column-stagger with rotated keycaps like mine but with larger column offsets.
The left hand's keys are more like the Alice though, only curved somewhat. I believe they used a constraint-optimising algorithm for theirs.

...
Among columnar split keyboards, there are those that lay out columns in various ways though. Several examples exist where the columns spread out like the fingers on the hand.
The Willow64 and WillowPecoe curve the columns instead of the rows.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:57:39 by Findecanor »
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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 12:46:26 »
thanks @Findecanor for chiming in...
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 03:56:00 »
I want to find out is the curvature between the keycap, the keys are arranged like an arc
Microsoft and Logitech make custom keycaps specifically for those keyboards, while mechanical keyboards have to use standard keycaps, each with the same square footprint.

Many of these keyboards from Microsoft or clones of them from other brands are also a little weird also in that they often increase the row-stagger for the keys by curving the keys that way.
The "Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard" (the official name, without any "Natural", "Sculpt" or "Surface" brand) has a little less row-stagger than other Microsoft keyboards though.

I know of only two attempts of mechanical keyboards with standard keycaps that are actually curving the rows, and one of them is (yet) only a concept I made:

Since 2011, I've had an idea of improving the "symmetric stagger" layout by curving it a bit, but I didn't get the maths right until I revisited the idea in 2019. Then I made this sketch (generated from a Python script, and then edited in QCAD and The Gimp)
(Attachment Link)
The curvature is calculated procedurally, and with collision detection to make sure that the spacing does not get too small. However, the overall width each row needs to be a bit wider than standard just to facilitate the use of standard keycaps!
I built a mockup for it also, and defined the matrix and controller in KiCad, but I never decided on how to lay out the thumb keys, so this here is mostly an idea. I haven't worked on it for months now. Was supposed to be fully split and tented (along red lines), or as a compact option (without the parts outside the red lines).

Last fall there was the GB of the Sagittarius. Maybe it will come back. It is flat with no tenting.
The right side has neither fully straight columns nor retained row-stagger but something in-between. Overall it is in-effect a column-stagger with rotated keycaps like mine but with larger column offsets.
The left hand's keys are more like the Alice though, only curved somewhat. I believe they used a constraint-optimising algorithm for theirs.

...
Among columnar split keyboards, there are those that lay out columns in various ways though. Several examples exist where the columns spread out like the fingers on the hand.
The Willow64 and WillowPecoe curve the columns instead of the rows.

Thank you for suggestion, I know more ergonomic layouts, like splay46, but microsoft ergo is popular and it seems easier to switch from the traditional keyboard, besides, Sagittarius seems to be too curvy.

Offline Gorbon

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 06:34:53 »
Since 2011, I've had an idea of improving the "symmetric stagger" layout by curving it a bit, but I didn't get the maths right until I revisited the idea in 2019. Then I made this sketch (generated from a Python script, and then edited in QCAD and The Gimp)
(Attachment Link)
Last fall there was the GB of the Sagittarius. Maybe it will come back. It is flat with no tenting.

Very interesting, but unfortunately rotating the keys, increases the key-center distances, making them just a bit harder to reach. If you were to use a symmetric key profile (e.g. DSA), you can essentially achieve the same by just column and row staggering, without any rotation. It'd be simpler that way and you wouldn't increase the key distances.

Also, I think that such a symmetric row stagger would -kind of- require tenting, otherwise you would need to more aggressively pronate your hands for your fingers to align with the upper row keys. I think that the flat Sagittarius wouldn't be very comfortable over longer typing sessions.

P.S: If you haven't already, it'd be awesome if you could put all your keyboard knowledge/ideas/insights into some blog/website. I'd be the first to spend my weekends perusing it.

Offline iandoug

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 19 July 2021, 11:03:59 »
FWIW the Kensington Pro Fit Ergo Wireless Keyboard also seems to have a bit of a curve.

Offline Kraken-Jokes

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 20 July 2021, 22:33:38 »
You said you were looking for a curved layout and I'm not sure if this falls into that category you're looking for, but check out the Pteron56 keyboard. (disclaimer, I make and sell these)
Vertically staggered ortho layout separated into two 'hands' with 4 thumb keys each side.





Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 13:10:49 »

Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 14:15:34 »
Good work!
What is your algorithm? What I did was to sketch a poly-line following the bottom of a row of keys, stepping a fixed amount inwards and with a fixed amount of rotation for each key. I did that calculation with a key width 0.2 mm smaller than standard just to squeeze it a bit.
Then I imagined straight lines down from the first (straight) and the last key (max rotation) on that row and found their intersection point far in front of the keyboard. That point I used as origin for rotating the keys on the other rows.

However, any keys on the bottom row larger than 1u needed do be rotated slightly more so as to not bump a corner of the straight key into one of the key on the curved bottom alpha-row.
But that last step could be avoided if you simply do not rotate the innermost keys (T-G-B), (Y-H-N) compared to their neighbours. I don't think that Microsoft actually does that on their keyboards, even.
BTW. On Microsoft's keyboards, the leftmost keys on the left side are also already at a slight angle.
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 July 2021, 14:44:55 by Findecanor »
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 21:16:09 »
Good work!
What is your algorithm? What I did was to sketch a poly-line following the bottom of a row of keys, stepping a fixed amount inwards and with a fixed amount of rotation for each key. I did that calculation with a key width 0.2 mm smaller than standard just to squeeze it a bit.
Then I imagined straight lines down from the first (straight) and the last key (max rotation) on that row and found their intersection point far in front of the keyboard. That point I used as origin for rotating the keys on the other rows.

However, any keys on the bottom row larger than 1u needed do be rotated slightly more so as to not bump a corner of the straight key into one of the key on the curved bottom alpha-row.
But that last step could be avoided if you simply do not rotate the innermost keys (T-G-B), (Y-H-N) compared to their neighbours. I don't think that Microsoft actually does that on their keyboards, even.
BTW. On Microsoft's keyboards, the leftmost keys on the left side are also already at a slight angle.

I had to measure the angle of the key with a photo of the keyboard and adjust it manually on the keyboard layout editor.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/84e12393ca0d59ded37693204cd02afd
Because it's manual, I think it has many shortcomings, hopefully more people will be interested in this layout.

Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 12:44:34 »
I played around a bit with my curved-keyboard layout generator program that I had written for my layout with symmetric stagger:

273093-0
When curving the rows, the stagger becomes skewed between them, so you'd have to choose which keys to use as reference, and how much to offset those. Here, I've assigned the middle-finger columns as the "reference keys" and assigned a standard non-uniform 0.5-0.25 stagger splaying out from them.

I've noticed that existing boards have quite a variation in opening angles and amount of stagger. There are some differences even between the "Alice-type" boards.
Some keyboards employ a fixed stagger between the alphabetic rows on each side, while others stick to the 0.5-0.25.
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:09:11 »


I played around a bit with my curved-keyboard layout generator program that I had written for my layout with symmetric stagger:

(Attachment Link)
When curving the rows, the stagger becomes skewed between them, so you'd have to choose which keys to use as reference, and how much to offset those. Here, I've assigned the middle-finger columns as the "reference keys" and assigned a standard non-uniform 0.5-0.25 stagger splaying out from them.

I've noticed that existing boards have quite a variation in opening angles and amount of stagger. There are some differences even between the "Alice-type" boards.
Some keyboards employ a fixed stagger between the alphabetic rows on each side, while others stick to the 0.5-0.25.

yeah i get what you mean, but how did you choose the angle of inclination of the middle-finder column. I also wonder why no one has built keyboards like this yet.


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Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:32:38 »
how did you choose the angle of inclination of the middle-finder column.
I was mostly playing around, trying to mimic the "Alice" layout.
I think they use an opening angle of 12° and I increased that to 12.7 for the innermost keys.
The ZXCV and ASDF rows are symmetric on both sides, like on the Alice (but unlike some Microsoft and Logitech keyboards)

Which types of columns would you prefer?
More angle, or less? Offset home row or in-between the QWERT and ZXCV rows?
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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:35:25 »
Quote
I also wonder why no one has built keyboards like this yet.

because ortholinear + columnar (vertical) stagger makes more sense. *i would say better, but that's subjective.
... even basic ortholinear is better (in my opinion) and i've used both for many years (standard stagger & basic ortholinear)

standard staggered is pretty flawed regardless of how "popular" (common) it is.
.... still remnants of the typewriter age.....
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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:40:58 »
how did you choose the angle of inclination of the middle-finder column.
I was mostly playing around, trying to mimic the "Alice" layout.
I think they use an opening angle of 12° and I increased that to 12.7 for the innermost keys.
The ZXCV and ASDF rows are symmetric on both sides, like on the Alice (but unlike some Microsoft and Logitech keyboards)

Which types of columns would you prefer?
More angle, or less? Offset home row or in-between the QWERT and ZXCV rows?
I think building a keyboard and typing is the best way to know what makes sense, or simply cut a plate and put a switch on it.

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Offline mrninhvn

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:44:42 »


Quote
I also wonder why no one has built keyboards like this yet.

because ortholinear + columnar (vertical) stagger makes more sense. *i would say better, but that's subjective.
... even basic ortholinear is better (in my opinion) and i've used both for many years (standard stagger & basic ortholinear)

standard staggered is pretty flawed regardless of how "popular" (common) it is.
.... still remnants of the typewriter age.....

I agree, but MS layout is easier to convert from standard stagger, Alice layout also appears more even though it's ugly.

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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 13:49:22 »
if you go with a 14 column board, or split 5x7s you can pretty much keep the normal qwerty layout. only have to move one or two keys.
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Online Findecanor

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 27 July 2021, 15:26:35 »
because ortholinear + columnar (vertical) stagger makes more sense. *i would say better, but that's subjective.
... even basic ortholinear is better (in my opinion) and i've used both for many years (standard stagger & basic ortholinear)
BTW, the earlier keyboard layout that I posted above was meant as a way to bridge columnar and row-staggered.
The alphabetic keys are in straight columns at about the same angle: arctan(0.25)
The outer fingers' columns are offset to each-other similar to on a columnar keyboard, with even higher offsets than on ErgoDox/Corne/Iris/Lily58. The index-finger columns are higher up, but still more reachable than on a non-curved symmetric stagger, and the index fingers are the most movable digits after the thumbs.

However, there is one drawback with columnar keyboards compared to typewriter layout or symmetric stagger: they tend to make their users hold their hands parallel to the keyboard's plane, whereas on row-staggered the (right) hand has a slight angle.
That means that you'd need to have a higher tenting angle on columnar to achieve a similar ergonomic benefit as tenting a row-staggered keyboard.

Another weirdness of the typewriter layout is that with that wrist angle to the keyboard plane, bending the fingers draw arcs on the keyboard - not straight lines. A few keyboards based on this observation are in are in Gorbon's thread, including Gorbon's own layout.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 July 2021, 15:34:59 by Findecanor »
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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 28 July 2021, 03:30:43 »
Quote
Another weirdness of the typewriter layout is that with that wrist angle to the keyboard plane, bending the fingers draw arcs on the keyboard - not straight lines. A few keyboards based on this observation are in are in Gorbon's thread, including Gorbon's own layout.

yes, that was another good thread.
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Offline nevin

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Re: microsoft ergo layout
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 08 August 2021, 09:59:38 »
here's another one that someone just posted about today
New Lenovo ergo keyboard and mouse
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