Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.  (Read 623108 times)

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Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #150 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 13:00:40 »
Quote from: input nirvana;473145

I can be very unhelpful if given the chance.


Maybe you could make some contact with Alps or Synaptic?  Compare pricing, etc.

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #151 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 16:26:14 »
Hmm, about synaptics.

I repair a LOT of fujitsu laptops, which all use synaptics touchpads. Every time a top cover gets replaced, we throw the old one away (Fujitsu doesn't want it back) and each new one comes with a touchpad. I could start saving the old ones if we could use them for anything. They'd be used, but would work. The hard part is removing them without bending the PCB.

Maybe not for this project, come to think of it. Does synaptics make touchpoints? I know ALPS makes touchpads, too.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #152 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:03:07 »
Synaptics used to, I don't know about anymore though.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #153 on: Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:26:41 »
Quote from: inaneframe;473437
Synaptics used to, I don't know about anymore though.

I believe this was true a little over a year ago, but I'm not certain of exactly what and when. Re: Synaptic trackpoints
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline Input Nirvana

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #154 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 03:41:48 »
Quote from: Dox;472505
I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them.

If you saw the chair mount mechanics in the Split Kineisis mod article...I've looked at doing a lot of things, that one is the most simple, versatile, robust, and affordable.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #155 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 04:15:11 »
Quote from: input nirvana;473639
If you saw the chair mount mechanics in the Split Kineisis mod article...I've looked at doing a lot of things, that one is the most simple, versatile, robust, and affordable.


Oh man, talk about some serious nirvana.  I'm so excited right now.

Offline mharrison

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #156 on: Mon, 19 December 2011, 15:08:00 »
Put me down for one if the trackpoint is added :)

Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #157 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 05:26:43 »
Any info on pointing sticks yet?

Offline wrtcedar

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #158 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 17:11:23 »
A split keyboard with mechanical switches is what I was looking for when I came to GH. So I'm interested. I'm not sure that I'm $400 worth of interested yet. I've still got some alternatives to think about.

I'm pretty aggressively uninterested in an integrated trackpoint, by the way. I would be interested in support (screw holes?) for later securely  attaching lifts to tent the board - something along the lines of what the Freestyle allows - along with a pad configuration on the bottom that would help keep it stable in that configuration.

I get a bit concerned when look at the list of OS X incompatibilities that are showing up with the Truly Ergonomic keyboard.  How difficult is it to program the firmware in a keyboard like this and how hard is it to address things like sleep/wakeup problems?

This is a very neat project!

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #159 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 21:05:48 »
Dox says he's looking into a system to chair-mount it, so I'm sure you'd be able to tent it pretty easily using the same system. Right now all I can imagine is those screw-holes they put on the backs of routers, powerstrips, and the like for wall mounting, though I really have no idea what it'll turn out to be in reality.

I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

You'll have to check on the sleep/wakeup, but the microcontroller (teensy?) is supposed to be very compatible with different systems (one of the reasons I'm interested in this project). It's also pretty easy to reprogram them.

Want me to put you on the list as under $400?
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Offline nesiax

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #160 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 21:29:41 »
Quote from: input nirvana;472983
I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.


Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.
I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page with the hope someday i will make it real.
Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.
keep up the good work !
p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.
now: key64.org with cherry blue keys and dsa keys |  before: noppoo choc mini with cherry brown keys
Check out the key64.org project , A Libre * Design, Minimalist, Ergonomic, Splittable, Symmetric, Compact 64 Keys, Eco-Friendly, Durable, Native Colemak Keyboard, Embedded Mouse and Firmware Programmable USB Keyboard.  * Free as in Freedom.
The key64 need a case, if you want to design it please contact us

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #161 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:01:36 »
Wow, you did the Key64? I salute you sir!

You are an inspiration to us all.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
I am happy to answer honest PMs from concerned parties

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #162 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:05:10 »
Quote from: nesiax;475584
Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.
I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page with the hope someday i will make it real.
Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.
keep up the good work !
p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.

I'm not a trackpoint fan at all. Not. At. All. It's a means to an end. I have only got 4 options to have a pointing device built into the keyboard so you don't take your fingers off home row.
1) Trackpoint. It exists.
2) Scroll wheel. Custom. Narrower, with the side-to-side movement. This would have to be made, I have notes and intend to try it out next year, but I'm not very hopeful of a positive outcome.
3) Apple scrollball from the Mighty Mouse or equal. I've seen these on some smartphones. The Apple scrollball does not move the cursor, but the screen, so I need to look into this more.
4) Thumb scroll ball (ie: Alphagrip)

Love the Key64, I reference it in the Split Kinesis Mod wiki.
I need info on your firmware ability!
P.S.-You never responded to my emails!!!!

Also about the chair mount. I am able to replicate the one that is shown, or modify a similar type of unit. If you want that to happen, PM me.
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:07:21 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline sordna

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #163 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:54:34 »
Yup, trackpoint is a means to an end. I so much want to be on the home row, that I configured mouse keys on right side of my keyboard that work when I hold Caps Lock (mapped to AltGr). A trackpoint would be far far better than mouse keys, and of course I would still have a mouse or trackball next to the keyboard.
But for simple things like moving the mouse from one window to another a trackpoint on the keyboard is great.

I mean sometimes you literally have to move your hand several inches and grab the mouse/trackball, just to move the mouse pointer less than an inch, which is a terrible waste, and that's where mouse keys or a trackpoint come in.

I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #164 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:25:37 »
Ditto, I much prefer a mouse to a trackpoint but I would never buy a laptop that did not have one. . . more specifically, I do not buy laptops that have touchpads.  They are the third bane of my existence next to table booths at restaurants and those three specialty USB plugs you find on various digital cameras.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35720[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35721[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35723[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35724[/ATTACH]

These are the things that I hate.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I still think it shouldn't be standard but if it is going to come with the PCB ready, a standard type, size, and configuration has to be decided on and it has to be one that we could get without necessarily ripping open another keyboard (though I have a couple rubberdome IBM's with trackpoints just screaming for me to do it.)

Offline nesiax

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« Reply #165 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:14:27 »
Quote from: sordna;475632
I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.

Hi, while i don't like a trackpoint in a keyboard (just personal preference), the idea to have a mouse on a keyboard is a must have, specially when you have to work with CAD applications, that could sound strange, but when you have to position the mouse on a specific pixel then the keyboard is the perfect companion because their input is not as analog as the mouse tends to be.
Another useful aspect is when you have to scroll through a webpage for example, that would be nice for me.
That's my idea of a mouse just using keys, while pressing the Alt-Gr some keys become the mouse, others the roller up/down, other the mouse clicks, and others will give you the mouse speed.
now: key64.org with cherry blue keys and dsa keys |  before: noppoo choc mini with cherry brown keys
Check out the key64.org project , A Libre * Design, Minimalist, Ergonomic, Splittable, Symmetric, Compact 64 Keys, Eco-Friendly, Durable, Native Colemak Keyboard, Embedded Mouse and Firmware Programmable USB Keyboard.  * Free as in Freedom.
The key64 need a case, if you want to design it please contact us

Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #166 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:42:26 »
Another idea would be to have this with the proposed function key with the locking mechanism available (speaking in QWERTY and Colemak placement):

Quote


qwert
asdfg
zxcvb



Quote


qwfpg
arstd
zxcvb



Quote
KEY:

> = Mouse Speed Increase
<  = Mouse Speed Decrease
⇖⇑⇗⇐⇒⇙⇓⇘ = Mouse Movements
0 = Mouse 0 or Left Mouse Button
ǀ = Mouse 1 or Middle Mouse Button
ǁ = Mouse 2 or Right Mouse Button
^ = Scroll Up
ⱽ = Scroll Down




Quote


^⇖ ⇑ ⇗ >
ǀ ⇐  0 ⇒ ǁ
ⱽ ⇙ ⇓ ⇘ <



OR

Quote


>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
0 ⇐  ǀ ⇒ ǁ
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ



OR

Quote


>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
ǁ ⇐  ǀ ⇒ 0
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ



Or some variation therein.  I like the third variation the most.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:47:41 by inaneframe »

Offline sordna

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #167 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 22:53:09 »
Here's my version of mouse keys, using it on an Ubuntu machine and KBC Poker keybard. Note that I use the us(altgr-intl) keyboard layout on all my machines, since I type Dvorak on the Kinesis but QWERTY on staggered keyboards such as the Poker.

Code: [Select]

xkbset m # enable mousekeys
xkbset exp =m # avoid expiring mousekeys

# Choose a keymap that has an extra layer (level 3),
# add compose key (shift+ralt) and caps lock toggle by pressing both shifts:
setxkbmap 'us(altgr-intl)' -option lv3:ralt_switch_multikey,shift:both_capslock

# menu to grave/tilde:
xmodmap -e 'keycode 135 = grave asciitilde grave asciitilde'

# rwin/super to altgr:
xmodmap -e 'remove mod4 = Super_R'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = ISO_Level3_Shift Multi_key'

# caps to altgr (shift+caps locks it!):
xmodmap -e 'remove Lock = Caps_Lock'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 66 = ISO_Level3_Shift ISO_Level3_Lock'

# numpad (just the keys needed for mouskeys)
xmodmap -e 'keycode 30 = u U u U KP_7 KP_Home'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 31 = i I i I KP_8 KP_Up'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 32 = o O o O KP_9 KP_Prior'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 44 = j J j J KP_4 KP_Left'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 45 = k K k K KP_5 KP_Begin'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 46 = l L l L KP_6 KP_Right'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 58 = m M m M KP_1 KP_End'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 59 = comma less comma less KP_2 KP_Down'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 60 = period greater period greater KP_3 KP_Next'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 19 = 0 parenright 0 parenright KP_0 KP_Insert'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 47 = semicolon colon semicolon colon KP_Decimal KP_Delete'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 20 = minus underscore minus underscore KP_Subtract KP_Subtract'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 61 = slash question slash question KP_Divide KP_Divide'

# that's all folks


Just paste it into a script and it should work.
I've been using mouskeys on the Kinesis as well, without need for any xmodmaps since it has the embedded numpad.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Architect

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #168 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 03:09:38 »
And curved is less stable. Sign me up for a few, if this goes to production.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Architect

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« Reply #169 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 03:25:04 »
If it goes to production I'll buy three. One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline wrtcedar

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« Reply #170 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 04:21:56 »
Quote from: dorkvader;475576
I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

...

Want me to put you on the list as under $400?


Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.

I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.

Offline wrtcedar

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #171 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 04:34:47 »
Quote from: Architect;476509
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)

I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?

Offline Architect

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« Reply #172 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 09:01:50 »
Quote from: wrtcedar;476530
I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?

The blocks look like Kinesis copies, which is good, but they both have an empty spot above the first thumb double key. In other words, have three single keys along the top, and three (including the shared corner key) along the back side, half surrounding the two vertical double keys. Make sense? The three top keys could be the three modifiers, with the back two the navigation keys, as for the Kinesis. I really with Kinesis just added that one extra key.

It would need to move out slightly from the other block. On the Kinesis an extra key should fit there, maybe if they moved the block out a millimeter or two.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline sordna

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #173 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 11:07:17 »
Architect, I don't think an extra key is needed, because this keyboard has extra keys in the middle that can be used as modifiers.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 December 2011, 11:09:40 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Architect

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #174 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 18:49:07 »
Quote from: sordna;476669
Architect, I don't think an extra key is needed, because this keyboard has extra keys in the middle that can be used as modifiers.

Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.

Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #175 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 23:51:36 »
Quote from: Architect;476509
If it goes to production I'll buy three.
Added!
Quote from: wrtcedar;476527
Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.
Changed!
Quote from: Architect;476509
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)
(emphasis mine)
That's a good quote for the project. Improving on the kinesis would be pretty excellent. I've never seen one, so I really don't know for sure how that'd work out, but the cool part is: if you don't need any extra keys: you don't have to use them.
Quote from: wrtcedar;476527
I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.
Ugh, I used to have to put my wrists (and hands) in ice for 20 minutes, back when I was doing gymnastics. As a whole, Men's gymnastics is much worse on the wrists than women's, and pommel-horse especially so. Luckily, I don't seem to have any lasting issues. Anyway, I've not really been a fan of the TP, though I now prefer them to touchpads when working on customer's computers at work (I work at a warranty laptop repair center near college) because it's easier to use when the computer in question is up on shelf, so you can't see the touchpad. I'm still unsure about their use on keyboards, though.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be an option to omit them from the final design. Also, I'm sure this is the only way to keep everyone happy about it, as it seems that half the people will only take one if it's concluded, and the other half don't want it if it's there. Having it as an option seems the only way to do, despite the added engineering difficulty.

Quote from: Architect;476913
Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.

Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.
I agree with you: it seems like a great idea to me, though as I said, I'm a little unsure about how it'll work out in practice, as I've not had any experience with using my thumbs on a keyboard like that.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
I am happy to answer honest PMs from concerned parties

Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #176 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 02:33:54 »
Quote from: Architect;476913
the hole there just looks made for it.


To what hole do you refer?

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #177 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 13:08:15 »
Architect: you prefer the maltron thumb area?
http://www.maltron.com/media/hi-res/3d_dual_89_90/90_3d_tb_black1.jpg

I don't see how we can add that, but a 1x key out between the 2x thumbkeys and the normal keyboard keys is surely possible. Maybe that's what we're after?

edit: sort of hereabouts (in red).
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8480/topkbd.jpg

Or adding it a bit lower and extending the case, we can have a "palm key" for shift or whatever.

Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 December 2011, 13:22:27 by dorkvader »
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Offline hoggy

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #178 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 01:42:29 »
Quote
Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.

There's a whole world of accessibility switches out there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_access
They use a 3.5mm stereo jack.  The vast majority are overpriced, but it looks quite easy to construct your own.

Is that what you meant?

I think it's a great idea, and I'm prepared to pay a bit more for it.

I'm not too worried about the extra key, but I prefer your placement rather than shifting the block further out.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline fim

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #179 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 06:09:28 »
I'd be interested in one provided that I can get it ready to be used (no soldering required) and you're willing to do international shipping (UK).

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #180 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 11:24:23 »
I'll put you on the list, fim.

Actually, if it's only a couple, and no-one else wants to do it, I'd be willing to solder people's together and quickly test them for just the cost of shipping if need be. I like through-hole soldering.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Offline obra

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #181 on: Mon, 26 December 2011, 19:43:03 »
I'd love one. Having a trackpoint would be amazing.
I'd be willing to pay more for it to be fully assembled -- I know how not-handy I am with a soldering iron.

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #182 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 01:06:20 »
I'll add you, obra.

I may do a soldering service, unless someone else wants to cover that. Either way, I'm adding a section for people interested in receiving a fully assembled product.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
I am happy to answer honest PMs from concerned parties

Offline Pyrolistical

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #183 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 04:03:20 »
First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium

Offline laffindude

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #184 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 04:41:00 »
It is more ergonomic to have this layout since this board won't have the curvature of Kenesis. It'll be CNC machined, so you're paying for the billet anyways.
6 key... already explained many times in the thread.
Anodized aluminum caps will cost more than the keyboard.

Offline Dox

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #185 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 12:14:15 »
Quote from: Pyrolistical;478264
First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium
That one made me laugh this morning. You are ready to sacrifice an ergonomic aspect of the keyboard to save a few bucks but you are interested in cold feeling aluminum keycaps that would increase the cost A LOT.

THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.
(I hope this one will be clear enough)
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline Pyrolistical

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #186 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 17:46:48 »
Its more ergonomic according to who?  If you are going to make a claim like that do you have a study to back up a vertically staggered layout is more ergonomic than a true matrix?

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #187 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 20:15:38 »
Right, so clearly any claims about a keyboard that doesn't yet exist are purely theoretical anyway.

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now). The reason they're not completely symmetrical vertically is to accommodate for the greater length of the middle fingers: that way you'll be able to type with them all at the same extension/inclination. A "normal" matrix 'board wouldn't allow you to do this.

Now in practice: we won't really know until the keyboards are done, and even then we wouldn't know unless they got tested professionally, but that's how the theory goes.

So: it's based on the fact that your fingers aren't all the same length vertically: it's meant to match up to your fingers, and as a result isn't "true matrix". If you don't have to move your fingers as much, or contort them very much to type, then it should be more ergonomic.

I'd also argue that the kinesis isn't "true matrix" either, but I don't have one, and it's beside the point and "splitting hairs", but it's my opinion that this keyboard and the kinesis should be ergonomically superior to a "normal" matrix keyboard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 December 2011, 20:16:03 by dorkvader »
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Online Findecanor

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #188 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 22:03:54 »
Quote from: dorkvader;478680
So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now).

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

Offline Pyrolistical

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #189 on: Tue, 27 December 2011, 22:07:57 »
I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.

Offline dorkvader

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« Reply #190 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 00:49:44 »
Quote from: Findecanor;478744
I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.

(courtesy of ergo canada)
It doesn't really look that way to me from the pictures, but I trust another user's first-hand testimony, especially when I still haven't seen one firsthand.

Quote from: Pyrolistical;478745
I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.
Firstly: don't lose heart! There are lots of POS boards (from Access-is, tipro, and cherry) that are "true-matrix" that you may be interested in. Typematrix isn't the only one.
Second: I can indeed compare the two. You raise a good point: the keyboards are different. Still, from what I can see, the Kinesis strives to take into account finger motion, and relative finger length by using keywells and a stagger situated to each finger. While we can contrast these keyboards in the keywell area, we can compare them in many other ways.

In fact, now that I think of it, a large breadth of comparisons can be made.
both are keyboards
both will be programmible
both use cherry MX keyswitches
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)
both are designed for ergonomics to some degree

There are some important contrasts you bright up:
the kinesis has keywells, this is "flat"
the kinesis isn't splittable, this is split.

While these clearly are differences, they do not solely define a keyboard. All similarities can be compared. If there were no contrasting remarks to be made, then it would follow that the two are indistinguishable.

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Edit: cherry G80-1950
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23642-eBay-US-Cherry-G80-1950-%28matrix-layout%29
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G80-1950PQAXB-CHERRY-COMPACT-MATRIX-KEYBOARD-BEIGE-/180679116605?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item2a1150873d
5 left at $79/each
« Last Edit: Wed, 28 December 2011, 00:54:25 by dorkvader »
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
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Offline sordna

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #191 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 01:52:19 »
Quote from: dorkvader;478808
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)

Of course, all Kinesis Advantage models are USB and even have an integrated USB hub for hooking up 2 more devices.

Quote
Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Yes, you are! But we need to be careful not to overdo it with the "wave" pattern. Subtle is key. Even on the Kinesis I'm not a huge fan of the keywells being so curved/deep, I would prefer them to be a little flatter actually.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline bonega

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #192 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 10:31:54 »
Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-

Offline iWuzHere

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #193 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 20:16:20 »
Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.
Keyboard(s):
DAS Model S professional Cherry MX Blue
steelseries 6GV2 Cherry MX Black
F21-7D Blue ALPS
Noppoo Choc Mini Cherry MX Brown
Leopold FC200RE/AB Cherry MX Clear
Rosewill RK-9000 Cherry MX Red
Poker X Cherry MX Red
Filco MJ2 Ninja Cherry MX Blue
Ducky DK-9087 Dragon Cherry MX Red

Offline inaneframe

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #194 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 20:54:44 »
Dox, I think you should make it exactly how you have in mind.  You have my 3 orders and all the other guys.  I think that any suggestions such as drastic adjustments to key arrangement should just be ignored outright.  I love how people come in and try to piss on the project and mark their territory after people have already shown interest in it as is and before it even gets off the ground.

I can imagine the Wright Brothers almost having enough funds to get their plane built and some jagoff steps in and is all like "hey, ya' know I might possibly consider putting in a couple bucks but I think the wings should be straighter since it would save money."  You respond, "well the wings are not perfectly straight for a reason, they have a bump in them, otherwise it wouldn't fly as well."  Then him, "do you have any proof that the wings aren't better off perfectly straight, huh?  Mr. Wright?  Huh?"

ANNOYING.

Offline Dox

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #195 on: Wed, 28 December 2011, 21:27:20 »
Thanks inaneframe, I'm starting to think that I should do it like I did for my doxkb. Build one for myself to test the concept and design and give my drawings to those who want to build some. That way, they would have the possibility to tweak the design to their needs or try to organize a group buy to lower the cost. I really don't have the time to manage a group buy and I want to get it done.

In the last 2 days, I tried to design a new case that would cost a lot less than the original I couldn't even afford one with the quote that I got. I'll post some pics soon.
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #196 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 01:15:37 »
Quote from: bonega;478967
Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-

I'll add you

Quote from: iWuzHere;479338
Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.

I'll update.

Cool, thanks DOX. One difference here is that it'd likely cost a lot less for 30 cases to be made than a one-off for you. I suspect it's a little more reasonable for people to print up PCB's for the Doxkb, and come up with a plate than it would be for this project. Ultimately, it's up to you, though.

Have you considered getting someone else to handle distribution, etc of this GB (and just have you do the designwork)?

I'll look forward to new pictures. Hopefully we can get this down to a price everyone can afford.
IBM nut and bolt mod guide Keyboard Photos "I sort of want to have 1/4 of a grand staircase connecting two halves of a split level"
I am happy to answer honest PMs from concerned parties

Offline sordna

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #197 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 02:00:50 »
If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #198 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:03:34 »
Quote from: sordna;479444
If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

You are such a non-elitest. I don't know if I can be seen around with you.
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Offline slueth

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #199 on: Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:24:44 »
cool dox hope to see this go forward.