Ducky Dye-Subs are in!

[Danule]

if only there was a TKL version.

[InAComaDial999]

For you guys that have one of these is the plate black or gray?

Black.

[linziyi]

I'm fairly sure they are plate-mounted.

:S it says PCB mounted in the description, but I will take your word for it

[Photoelectric]

It's a mistake.  Plus see the posts above.  Black painted plate.

[SpAmRaY]

For you guys that have one of these is the plate black or gray?

Black.

Thanks, I just asked because from the photo on mechanicalkeyboards.com I wasn't sure, it almost makes the plate look lighter colored.

[rootwyrm]

Ducky will likely never make PBT Dye-Subs again.  They are the thickest I've ever seen, and they are super nice, but apparently production is an absolute nightmare and very costly.  I've been given the clear impression that if Ducky could go back in time, they never would have made the Dye-Subs, so I highly doubt key cap sets or more Dye-Subs will be coming anytime soon.  You've been warned

Tell those whiners to go talk to IBM and/or Unicomp. PBT doesn't need to be ridiculously thick, but those are the guys who know how to do it, and the dye-sub part is ridiculously cheap. (Seriously!) Besides, trust me, I can show them thicker ABS double-shots - which I'm quite sure cost a small fortune. They can make PBT dye-subs economically.

Why yes, I DO want a White/Gray set as a separate orderable SKU, however did you guess?

It's not just the materials that are costly.  It's the defects.  Apparently, it took many, many runs before they could produce them correctly.  The defect rate was just too high.

Ugh, really? I'm guessing that's where the worries about the aliasing on the keycaps comes from. Still, can't be that hard to sort out - otherwise, nobody else would be using it at all. :/

[Photoelectric]

I wonder if it's just difficult to keep the keys all straight and of perfect shape.  Hearing about PBT warping issues.  Plus looking at some PBT caps, they come slightly warped from the factory if quality control is not very good. 

For example, TimIsABat's review of Leopold FC660M stock PBT keycaps are on the left:



Look at how warped it is.  Plus all the stories of warped spacebars for thick PBT sets, and their brittleness.  I'm sure it requires strict quality control, as a factory is not as likely to have a person manually heating each spacebar to straighten it, etc.

[jabar]

I would be surprised if Ducky did generate a PBT spacebar for these boards.

[dorkvader]

I would be surprised if Ducky did generate a PBT spacebar for these boards.

Wait, so the spacebar is ABS?

I think maybe I'll get the grey one with clears. I've never tried clears, but I really lke ergo-clears, so we'll sew where that takes me.

Ofcouse, I still need to make sure I can order it, and then I'll come down to a final decision. I really like greens, but I already have a keyboard with greens (KMAC) so maybe I'll try clears.

Then again, I really lke greens with thick PBT (again KMAC, and my recently-sold QFR) so I know I'll like greens. Hmm.

[clockwork]

One thing I noticed when removing the 'D' key for the photo: these caps are a lot harder to remove and install than the ABS ones. You really have to take your time taking them off, and when putting them on the stems there is a 'POP' when you seat it all the way, almost like there is a ridge on the inside of the stem. Not a big thing but I guess it means swapping these would take longer and more care.

Odd, my experience isn't exactly the same with my white&grey one. Using the included wire puller, the PBT keycaps slide off and on very smoothly but with enough friction that you're sure they'll stay in place without problems, but not much more. I do see what you mean about the pop when seating them, but oddly only some of my keys are like that - the W isn't but the G is. In contrast, the thin ABS WASD keys that were in the box slide on and off with a lot more friction, and I had to push down very hard to get it fully seated.

I would be surprised if Ducky did generate a PBT spacebar for these boards.

I can't say for sure what the spacebar is made of, but the walls look about the same thickness as the other keys, and it has the same silky microtexture as the rest of the keys.

[rootwyrm]

I would be surprised if Ducky did generate a PBT spacebar for these boards.

Uh, so I guess you're surprised then? Why wouldn't they do all PBT? Mixed is incredibly stupid and not cost effective. The spacebar is PBT.

That said: the issue with warping is one of curing process with PBT which is not the same as ABS. You have to be more careful with it, especially with larger shapes - like spacebars. What causes warping is a lack of understanding of the process, lack of proper curing controls, and trying to treat it like ABS where 'meh whatever close enough' will fly past QC fine.
Ducky isn't likely to have the curing control issue IMHO - they've certainly dealt with worse - so my guess would be it was issues with the dye-sub printing itself. The initial photos turned a lot of folks off because there were obvious issues/defects with the dye-sub printing - heavy aliasing and some blurriness.

[nsrexler]

Spacebar feels like PBT to me, and is the same thickness as the other keys. Is anyone brave enough to do an acetone test?

[Photoelectric]

Spacebar feels like PBT to me, and is the same thickness as the other keys. Is anyone brave enough to do an acetone test?

Cotton swab with a small amount of acetone on the inside of the key, toward the bottom of a wall?  Would be safe enough.

[knotra]

just ordered one of these with clear switches. so excited!!

[knotra]

Just got my 9008G2 Pro Dark Gray PBT with Clears in this morning - ordered it on Wednesday, excellent service as always from mechanicalkeyboards.com.

Pics!

WOW! that looks sick! mine comes on wednesday!

[ShakeR]

Hey I just got this keyboard in the mail today and its got blue led instead of purple did they just switch the keycaps for the DK9008 G2 Pro?

Are you referring the the WASD LEDs?  Were they supposed to be purple?

[Photoelectric]

They are all shown to be purple on promo photos.

[jabar]

The only G2Pro LEDS I've seen are blue for WASD.

[Ducky nordic]

They are all shown to be purple on promo photos.

Its just distortion by camera. If you take photos with led backlight on the color is distorted as the light burns through the color. Blue will appear like purple. Live you will see them as they are, blue.
G2Pro has leds on WASD + Caps, ScrLck, NumLck. They are always blue.

[Photoelectric]

I'm referring to official Ducky promo photos.  They could have color-corrected them, but instead the color is definitely lavender/purple, which is misleading:









etc.

Nothing blue about those

[Jalberstone]

I want to buy one of these but I cannot decide if I should get one with clears or greens. I have a Ducky Shine II with mx blues and I love it but I always bottom out. I also have a cm storm quickfire rapid with browns, but I want something with a bigger tactile bump. Can anyone help me? I'm open to any suggestions.

[linziyi]

I want to buy one of these but I cannot decide if I should get one with clears or greens. I have a Ducky Shine II with mx blues and I love it but I always bottom out. I also have a cm storm quickfire rapid with browns, but I want something with a bigger tactile bump. Can anyone help me? I'm open to any suggestions.

Clear is like blue but without the sound, green is like heavier blue.

[Photoelectric]

I have blues and Clears, and I can't agree with that assessment.  Blues don't have such a defined bump and feel lighter.  Their click is loud, but Clears have a sort of click-like sound as well--not silent.
--
It sounds like you'll be safer with greens, if you want heavier Blues.

[Jalberstone]

Which has a bigger tactile bump and will prevent me from bottoming out: clears or greens? Also, I'm new here, so can someone tell me how to reply to a comment?

[missalaire]

Which has a bigger tactile bump and will prevent me from bottoming out: clears or greens? Also, I'm new here, so can someone tell me how to reply to a comment?

Clears have a noticeable bump, greens don't have a bump at all. Clears and greens both feel really different from eachother so I'd try to get in on a switch testing group to try those out if you can.

Also, for anyone who did order one of the Ducky boards with the thick dyesub PBT caps... are the space bars PBT also and nice and flat?

[knotra]

Which has a bigger tactile bump and will prevent me from bottoming out: clears or greens? Also, I'm new here, so can someone tell me how to reply to a comment?

you have to choose here. the clears have a bigger tactile bump while the greens are heavy which will prevent you from bottoming out. greens like the blues already have a pretty big tactile bump so I would go with the greens.

You reply to someone's comment by clicking "quote" or "multi-quote" if you want to reply to more than 1 comment.

[linziyi]

Which has a bigger tactile bump and will prevent me from bottoming out: clears or greens? Also, I'm new here, so can someone tell me how to reply to a comment?

you have to choose here. the clears have a bigger tactile bump while the greens are heavy which will prevent you from bottoming out. greens like the blues already have a pretty big tactile bump so I would go with the greens.

You reply to someone's comment by clicking "quote" or "multi-quote" if you want to reply to more than 1 comment.

:O Clears have even bigger bump than blues and greens?!

[Photoelectric]

Which has a bigger tactile bump and will prevent me from bottoming out: clears or greens? Also, I'm new here, so can someone tell me how to reply to a comment?

you have to choose here. the clears have a bigger tactile bump while the greens are heavy which will prevent you from bottoming out. greens like the blues already have a pretty big tactile bump so I would go with the greens.

You reply to someone's comment by clicking "quote" or "multi-quote" if you want to reply to more than 1 comment.

:O Clears have even bigger bump than blues and greens?!

It's a much more defined "longer" bumpy bump.  Blues feel like they have a very quick snappy bump.  It's very different.  I'm typing on Blues now, and I have a few Clear switches I've been playing with, inserting different springs.

[VesperSAINT]

Greens and Clears are hard to compare with each other. It'd be much more accurate to compare Blues with Greens and Browns with Clears. However, where the Greens just have a stiffer spring than Blues (stems are identical but just different colors), the Clears have a stiffer spring than Browns AND a different stem where the tactile bump is much more pronounced which leads to a much more longer and tactile response.

I find that the Clears are hands down the best and easiest switch to not bottom out on because of the very long and pronounced tactility. Because you won't be bottoming out on the switch and lifting off after the tactile bump, I find that typing on the Clears is a lighter experience than Greens. I believe the Greens design makes it so that it's much more satisfying to bottom out on because it's harder to control your press with the stiffer springs and much more shorter tactility. I don't really think that one is better than the other but just what one prefers more in their switch. They are my 2 favorite stock Cherry switches and you can't really go wrong with either.

However, there is the issue where many have experienced quality control with clicky switch keyboards where some of the switches won't click. I've experienced this and it is a very very frustrating issue, especially if it happens with an alpha switch. However, I wouldn't be too scared about this issue because mechanicalkeyboards.com has some awesome customer service, if you happen to be unlucky to receive this issue

Hope this helps.

[jabar]

Uh, so I guess you're surprised then? Why wouldn't they do all PBT? Mixed is incredibly stupid and not cost effective. The spacebar is PBT.

Considering the SOP of companies providing stock PBT is to use an ABS spacebar...

but I guessed that didn't dawn upon you.

[nsrexler]

Uh, so I guess you're surprised then? Why wouldn't they do all PBT? Mixed is incredibly stupid and not cost effective. The spacebar is PBT.

Considering the SOP of companies providing stock PBT is to use an ABS spacebar...

but I guessed that didn't dawn upon you.

Past Ducky PBT keycap sets have always included a PBT space bar.

[InAComaDial999]

Re: blues vs clears, they are very different.  Blues have a light feel and a small tactile bump.  Clears have both a stiffer coil spring and a longer, larger tactile bump which affects the leaf spring.  Both of these contribute to a higher actuation force.  Rknize explained it really well in another thread:

Be careful not to conflate switch actuation force with spring force.  The Cherry switch has two springs: the coil spring to return the stem and the leaf spring of the switch contacts.  The two switches interact in different ways, depending on the design of the stem.  That is why red/brown/blue switches have different actuation forces even though they all use the same spring.  For tactile switches, the leaf spring increases the actuation force because it has to ride over the bump.  There is also friction to take into account from the side-loading introduced byt he leaf spring.  For a linear switch, the leaf spring will slightly reduce the actuation force because the ramp of the stem is making the leaf spring help it along.

Anyway, I really, really like these clears.  Much more precise feeling than even blues.

[ARod]

I love the PBT keycaps.  Came perfect without a single visual artifact which is more than I can say for the latest Nvidia drivers. 

[therecorder]

I love the PBT keycaps.  Came perfect without a single visual artifact which is more than I can say for the latest Nvidia drivers. 

(Attachment Link)

Are those the dark grey caps?  They look tanish in the photo.

[rootwyrm]

Uh, so I guess you're surprised then? Why wouldn't they do all PBT? Mixed is incredibly stupid and not cost effective. The spacebar is PBT.

Considering the SOP of companies providing stock PBT is to use an ABS spacebar...

but I guessed that didn't dawn upon you.

Past Ducky PBT keycap sets have always included a PBT space bar.

Ayup. Exactly this.

But my DK9008G2 is in my hands now, and my gods, this thing is quiet for being greens. The keycaps are that thick. I mean it is borderline silent - it's certainly far quieter than my Model M.

I also grok where the problem with the PBTs are. The windows. My gods. Windows are a nightmare to begin with on ABS - on PBT?! Yeah. They aren't just dye-sub, those windowed keys are double-shot. There's some serious plastic lifting around the window itself - not sure what the correct word for it is. It's like a huge, jaggy sprue as a result of the clear plastic's expansion. (Present on both my examples. Yes, I got two.) But I'm more impressed that they actually managed to DO IT. Seriously. These are true double-shot - even if Ducky didn't mention it.

[ARod]

I love the PBT keycaps.  Came perfect without a single visual artifact which is more than I can say for the latest Nvidia drivers. 

(Attachment Link)

Are those the dark grey caps?  They look tanish in the photo.

The gray does have some brown in it by the looks of it.  Here the Gray Shine Keys on my Shine II, they are truly gray, dark gray.

[linziyi]

Just brought mine! Looking forward to it!

[actionbastard]

Just got my mx green board - going to take a little bit to get used to this baby coming from blues.

They are really springy, I like them though.

And these keycaps, so solid compared to my last board.

[Photoelectric]

The gray does have some brown in it by the looks of it.  Here the Gray Shine Keys on my Shine II, they are truly gray, dark gray.
(Attachment Link)

I'm so glad you took that photo of the gray Shine caps next to white!  They appear to be much darker than on promo photos.  I thought they were significantly lighter.

[ARod]

The gray does have some brown in it by the looks of it.  Here the Gray Shine Keys on my Shine II, they are truly gray, dark gray.
(Attachment Link)

I'm so glad you took that photo of the gray Shine caps next to white!  They appear to be much darker than on promo photos.  I thought they were significantly lighter.

To say I was surprised as to how Dark Gray there were is an understatement.  I was like wow. In the dark it has a really nice effect though, they looks obsidian blue.  See below.  I used the special solid blue keycap with the set as the escape key, nice touch.

[clockwork]

I also grok where the problem with the PBTs are. The windows. My gods. Windows are a nightmare to begin with on ABS - on PBT?! Yeah. They aren't just dye-sub, those windowed keys are double-shot. There's some serious plastic lifting around the window itself - not sure what the correct word for it is. It's like a huge, jaggy sprue as a result of the clear plastic's expansion. (Present on both my examples. Yes, I got two.) But I'm more impressed that they actually managed to DO IT. Seriously. These are true double-shot - even if Ducky didn't mention it.

I don't think they are doubleshot at all. I'm pretty sure they're made by molding a normal key, drilling a hole (note the shallow groove on the inside of the keycap sidewall aligned with the window that's probably caused by the drill bit shaft), and pressing a separate window piece in place from the bottom. This would explain the jagged edges around the window (called burrs, from the drilling process, which are noticeable on my num lock and scroll lock, but not on the caps lock) as well as the variable window depth (the window is slightly recessed on my num lock and scroll lock). Pull one of the keys and flip it over, you'll see a bit of swarf (shavings that result from drilling malleable materials) from drilling the keycap still hanging on around the window.

This could still explain Ducky's problems with the keycaps: if the window piece is larger enough than the hole, the keycap would crack when the window piece is pressed in instead of both pieces deforming slightly and forming a tight interference fit.

[missalaire]

The gray does have some brown in it by the looks of it.  Here the Gray Shine Keys on my Shine II, they are truly gray, dark gray.
(Attachment Link)

I'm so glad you took that photo of the gray Shine caps next to white!  They appear to be much darker than on promo photos.  I thought they were significantly lighter.

To say I was surprised as to how Dark Gray there were is an understatement.  I was like wow. In the dark it has a really nice effect though, they looks obsidian blue.  See below.  I used the special solid blue keycap with the set as the escape key, nice touch.

(Attachment Link)

The gray shine caps look nice... I might have to get myself a set eventually. I was never interested before because they looked so light and unappealing in the product pictures.

[ImperfectLink]

Any incoming TKL with blue/grey PBT?

[Photoelectric]

Any incoming TKL with blue/grey PBT?

These dye sub PBT caps were only made for their full-sized keyboard variety.

[ImperfectLink]

I'd buy one if they had the numpad on the left for better ergonomics.

[COFFFEEEE]

just ordered: Ducky DK9008G2 PRO Dark Grey & Blue Version PBT Mechanical Keyboard (Red Cherry MX)

[rootwyrm]

I also grok where the problem with the PBTs are. The windows. My gods. Windows are a nightmare to begin with on ABS - on PBT?! Yeah. They aren't just dye-sub, those windowed keys are double-shot. There's some serious plastic lifting around the window itself - not sure what the correct word for it is. It's like a huge, jaggy sprue as a result of the clear plastic's expansion. (Present on both my examples. Yes, I got two.) But I'm more impressed that they actually managed to DO IT. Seriously. These are true double-shot - even if Ducky didn't mention it.

I don't think they are doubleshot at all. I'm pretty sure they're made by molding a normal key, drilling a hole (note the shallow groove on the inside of the keycap sidewall aligned with the window that's probably caused by the drill bit shaft), and pressing a separate window piece in place from the bottom. This would explain the jagged edges around the window (called burrs, from the drilling process, which are noticeable on my num lock and scroll lock, but not on the caps lock) as well as the variable window depth (the window is slightly recessed on my num lock and scroll lock). Pull one of the keys and flip it over, you'll see a bit of swarf (shavings that result from drilling malleable materials) from drilling the keycap still hanging on around the window.

This could still explain Ducky's problems with the keycaps: if the window piece is larger enough than the hole, the keycap would crack when the window piece is pressed in instead of both pieces deforming slightly and forming a tight interference fit.

Hm, might be right. Looked a little closer and those are obviously drill marks. And drill burrs through the whole channel. But there's no glue marks, and these windows are in there but good. So they had to have heat/shrunk fit the windows. There's no way they're straight inserts. Check the keycap and you'll note significant stepping on the channel - I'd say close to a millimeter in difference, give or take a bit.

So most likely the process is initial mold -> drill -> heat -> inset window -> cure. Or similar. I'm not a molding expert but you get the idea. Otherwise, you'd need a larger lip for the window to get sufficient glue adhesion. If you look at the other windowed keys Ducky is using - specifically on the Zero - they appear to be two-step ABS.

Either way, I'm not particularly thrilled with the results, no. Certainly I applaud Ducky for the effort, and their acceptance that this just wasn't an acceptable level of quality. But it'd be a lot nicer if they'd fix the issue and swap the three keys it affects.

[clockwork]

I also grok where the problem with the PBTs are. The windows. My gods. Windows are a nightmare to begin with on ABS - on PBT?! Yeah. They aren't just dye-sub, those windowed keys are double-shot. There's some serious plastic lifting around the window itself - not sure what the correct word for it is. It's like a huge, jaggy sprue as a result of the clear plastic's expansion. (Present on both my examples. Yes, I got two.) But I'm more impressed that they actually managed to DO IT. Seriously. These are true double-shot - even if Ducky didn't mention it.

I don't think they are doubleshot at all. I'm pretty sure they're made by molding a normal key, drilling a hole (note the shallow groove on the inside of the keycap sidewall aligned with the window that's probably caused by the drill bit shaft), and pressing a separate window piece in place from the bottom. This would explain the jagged edges around the window (called burrs, from the drilling process, which are noticeable on my num lock and scroll lock, but not on the caps lock) as well as the variable window depth (the window is slightly recessed on my num lock and scroll lock). Pull one of the keys and flip it over, you'll see a bit of swarf (shavings that result from drilling malleable materials) from drilling the keycap still hanging on around the window.

This could still explain Ducky's problems with the keycaps: if the window piece is larger enough than the hole, the keycap would crack when the window piece is pressed in instead of both pieces deforming slightly and forming a tight interference fit.

Hm, might be right. Looked a little closer and those are obviously drill marks. And drill burrs through the whole channel. But there's no glue marks, and these windows are in there but good. So they had to have heat/shrunk fit the windows. There's no way they're straight inserts. Check the keycap and you'll note significant stepping on the channel - I'd say close to a millimeter in difference, give or take a bit.

So most likely the process is initial mold -> drill -> heat -> inset window -> cure. Or similar. I'm not a molding expert but you get the idea. Otherwise, you'd need a larger lip for the window to get sufficient glue adhesion. If you look at the other windowed keys Ducky is using - specifically on the Zero - they appear to be two-step ABS.

They wouldn't even need to heat anything, just the act of pressing a slightly oversize window piece into the hole in the keycap will generate enough heat to cause localized plastic welding. Actively heating it runs the risk of softening the plastic and causing the keycap to deform during window insertion. It's a pretty common plastic assembly process, and doesn't require anything but a press and a couple support dies.

I agree on the lack of glue - it isn't necessary if the fit is as tight as it is, and we'd see glue squeezing out around the window if it was glued.

[rootwyrm]

They wouldn't even need to heat anything, just the act of pressing a slightly oversize window piece into the hole in the keycap will generate enough heat to cause localized plastic welding. Actively heating it runs the risk of softening the plastic and causing the keycap to deform during window insertion. It's a pretty common plastic assembly process, and doesn't require anything but a press and a couple support dies.

I agree on the lack of glue - it isn't necessary if the fit is as tight as it is, and we'd see glue squeezing out around the window if it was glued.

Fit isn't that tight - if it was, wouldn't need the drilling and there'd be no lip. Plus there's a much higher risk of cracking. Also remember that both PBT and ABS have very high melt points - getting PBT hot enough to work with somewhat while not introducing substantial deformation isn't too hard. Hot enough to weld PBT and ABS? Uh. Yeah, not without ruining the inset. Not even close. You're talking about a >100C difference in melting points (PBT being higher) which would result in the ABS section basically turning to mush before weld occurs meaning it wouldn't have that uniform diffuser center. Or the clear part is PBT, which would be even MORE impressive.

There's probably adhesive in there, but it's a very small amount and likely on the sides more than the lip.

Also looking at my keyboard a little more closely, I may need to get the calipers out. Probably an optical illusion or the way the legends were printed, but the LED openings look off-center.

[dorkvader]

I can't speak with that much authority, as I don't have one, but I would imagine that the glass transition temperature to be more of a deciding factor than the melt point (unless that's what you are talking about). I would expect these to be just press fit. You don't need to rely on welding and adhesives if friction will do the job. If the hole and peg diameters are as different as you say, then you can rely on friction alone to protect the peg from falling out.

The types of manufacturing processes you are describing would mean the windowed keycaps would cost several dollars alone, which I doubt ducky would go for in a product of this price.

Still, without seeing it firsthand, I can't make any definitive claims.