geekhack
geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: hvontres on Wed, 12 August 2020, 02:45:43
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Just wondering if any adventurous souls out there have tried using FR4 (pcb material) for a plate. It occurs to me that one could easily design a upper level pcb with Just the soldermask and some routed cutouts for the switches and get them made at the same time as the PCB. In fact, if one were to set up the right footprints, the PCB layout could automatically generate the matching plate. Being a relative noob to this buisness, I figure I'd ask before learning the hard way.
Of course now aluminum PCB's are a thing, so that could be another option. Plus, it might be kind of cool to do one with a solid copper plane and no soldermask for one of those steampunk builds.
Thanks for any advice on this.
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Yes, FR4 plates are becoming more common, I guess mainly because of the ease of manufacturing and low cost. I just had a few Discipline V2 FR4 plates made at JLCPCB along with the PCBs and they came to $7.60 including shipping and VAT (I'm in the EU).
The ability to use the copper layer for aesthetic purposes is an added bonus, and it's basically free. Polaris FR4 plate was executed very nicely.
You're right that KiCad should be able to create the plate file automatically if you have the right footprint that has the switch cutout on a separate layer. I haven't tried this myself yet but will do very soon as I'm finally planning to make a PCB for a unusual ortho/ergo board that I call "Flying V" :)
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FR4 is a great way to inexpensively build a board. Usually considered a sandwich or spaced plate style case (just 2 FR4 plates, spaced apart with standoffs/spacers, pcb held in place by the switches in the switch plate).
many vendors have inexpensive kits based around this style case, usually a lot of ergo, split and non standard layouts. check out....
keeb.io - many great split ergo boards
HolySwitch - currently running a group buy for a southpaw75 (https://holyswitch.co/collections/group-buys/products/southpaw75)
spacecat.design - has a handful of FR4 kits
- as well as many others
bottom plate art - you can get really fancy/creative.
- check out OLKB's plank ETOW's bottom plate (https://olkb.com/products/planck-eotw-bottom-plate)
- the southpaw75 above also has the name on the back of the bottom plate.
another option for DIY is to do a layered acrylic case
- can easily generate files with keyboard layout editor and swill's plate builder and have the layers cut at a place like ponoko or similar.
- check out qlavier's (https://www.qlavier.com/) cases to see top notch layered acrylic cases.
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the thing about fr4 plates is that you have to find a good company that wont botch up the drilling of the cutouts. even something as simple as a square with rounded corners could easily be botched if not handled properly. aside from that, it might be hard to get the more complicated hybrid cutouts.
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I just recently had JLC create some FR4 plates for a custom project and they came out great. For footprints you can check out Gondo's footprints here: https://github.com/AcheronProject/AcheronLibrary/tree/master/footprints/acheron_MX_PlateSlots.pretty
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I ordered an FR4 plate for my KBD8x Mk 2. It's an aftermarket plate, because the KBD8x only comes with brass these days.
I was thinking I might use the FR4 plate with silent switches, because I have seen a number of builds successfully mounting dampened switches on FR4 plates.
Here's one example of silenced switches on an FR4 plate (Alpacas and FR4 seem to be a popular combination):
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FR4 is a "quieter" material than brass as the FR4 doesn't carry the switch ping "ring" like brass does.
if you're going with silenced, it really doesn't matter what plate you use. they are very quiet to begin with, very little sound for any case/plate to amplify. if you already have brass and want to try silenced, just put them in brass. i currenly have aliaz & hbheroinbob's silent tactile (outmu silent sky/forest) stems and they both make very little sound, even less when lightly lubed.
- so far have half my viterbi stem swapped to hbheroinbob's silent tactile stems (other half still has ergo clears). will have it fully swapped this weekend.
- the aliaz will be going in a new build, an ergodash.
it's hard to gauge the current trend... not to long ago, seemed like the majority wanted stiffer boards (brass, etc.), coming from the flood of 60%s which the majority did not have plates (just tray mount PCBs) and there was complaining of flexing. now there's all kinds of efforts to make them softer, FR4, half POM or PC plates, relief cuts in PCB, gasket mounting, etc..
don't go for what everybody else is doing, go for what you think you'll like.
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Thanks for all the advice. I was atctually looking at this as an easier way to get prototype plates made. Instead of trying to get someone to do a seperate Waterjet or laser cut, just having a second PCB made seemed like a good idea. And looking at some of the recent projects like "Boston" this does seem to work.
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yes. that's a pretty common practice.
this is a numberpad, but you can see it was produced all in one piece
[attach=1]
https://spacecat.design/collections/pcbs-cases-kits/products/soyuz-number-pad-kit
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FR4 is a "quieter" material than brass as the FR4 doesn't carry the switch ping "ring" like brass does.
if you're going with silenced, it really doesn't matter what plate you use. they are very quiet to begin with, very little sound for any case/plate to amplify. if you already have brass and want to try silenced, just put them in brass. i currenly have aliaz & hbheroinbob's silent tactile (outmu silent sky/forest) stems and they both make very little sound, even less when lightly lubed.
- so far have half my viterbi stem swapped to hbheroinbob's silent tactile stems (other half still has ergo clears). will have it fully swapped this weekend.
- the aliaz will be going in a new build, an ergodash.
it's hard to gauge the current trend... not to long ago, seemed like the majority wanted stiffer boards (brass, etc.), coming from the flood of 60%s which the majority did not have plates (just tray mount PCBs) and there was complaining of flexing. now there's all kinds of efforts to make them softer, FR4, half POM or PC plates, relief cuts in PCB, gasket mounting, etc..
don't go for what everybody else is doing, go for what you think you'll like.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, nevin.
When it first came out, it seemed as if the KBD8x MKII was trying to please everyone. It had brass and polycarb, offered in both full and half-plate. But it turned out that the half-plates did not offer the most stable and consistent basis for typing, especially polycarb.
So now they only offer brass full-plate. But at least they tried. And I appreciate that they offered a softer plate, even though the whole board would be decked out in brass otherwise. I never asked for brass or harder surfaces (seems like enthusiasts of the past were trying to go softer, and avoid even the 'hard' alum plates in factory boards). But I guess maybe this new wave of boards will contain softer options by default.
I have no problem decking out a brass plate in dampened switches. I am planning to do the same to a steel plate on another build, and have already done so with steel / alum plates in factory boards. It seems to work fine. Although I figured softer plates would offer a nicer surface for tactiles, at least the unsilenced ones.
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half plates are basically just for alignment of switches to stabs. they really don't do much else.
more than the plate material, lubing makes the biggest difference in sound. i was amazed at the difference with the 1st batch i lubed (non-dampened, of course).
- switch films can help with some loose fitting housings/tops, can also change the sound some
- how much empty space is in a case will affect the sound (big, roomy case or something that has very little "open air" inside the case)
- plate material can effect the sound as well, steel being the ping-iest. all metals will carry the sound/ping more than other materials
- caps will also affect the sound, usually, the thicker the cap, the lower the sound. and PBT is usually slightly deeper than ABS given the same profile & thickness of caps.
- dampened switches, other than the obvious, they really do a good job of being "quiet", even more so than the old dampened alps. and i am talking about 2 of the 3 silenced MX i've seen, the cherry/aliaz (gateron)/gateron (with 3 bumpers at bottom of stem, single up top) as well as the outemu/hbheroinbob silenced variant with the single/larger (and removable) bumper. the latter, being very close to the original alps dampening as far as how it's constructed, though the rubber bumper is more pronouned in this MX variant. i don't have any of the ones that use the rubber bands like alpaca's.
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Yeah, my factory boards with steel plates liked to ping a lot, until I either had the switches lubed or wore them in.
I've been experimenting with those OUTEMU Silent Tactiles. Got a decent frankenswitch made from those in the works. They're very compatible with a lot of housings.
Also have the new U4s on the way, in the new Boba housings. Can mess with those too, to see which stems work best.
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you can reduce ping by lubing the spring. (many techniques) everything from bag w/oil, to just tops & bottoms to the 205g0 donut.
Also have the new U4s on the way, in the new Boba housings. Can mess with those too, to see which stems work best.
yeah, i got a sample switch from him. very different indeed. really playing with the tactile bump/shape. haven't pulled it apart to really look at it yet. but definitely interesting. :thumb:
my silent tactile are in a hodgepodge housing as well. started off with cheap gateron brown/soldered, then swapped tops for black cherry tops, then cherry clear stems (ergo clear), now the silent tactile stems. all without soldering one switch (board supports switchtop opening. highly recommended for experimenting! (shy of hotswap)
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The ability to use the copper layer for aesthetic purposes is an added bonus, and it's basically free. Polaris FR4 plate was executed very nicely.
Is there instruction on how to add copper layer around the switch holes in KiCAD? Thanks!
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The ability to use the copper layer for aesthetic purposes is an added bonus, and it's basically free. Polaris FR4 plate was executed very nicely.
Is there instruction on how to add copper layer around the switch holes in KiCAD? Thanks!
I don't know. I'm pretty new to PCB design, only started tinkering recently (started by replacing Mini USB with USB-C on the Plaid). Will try to look into it.
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Yes, FR4 plates are becoming more common, I guess mainly because of the ease of manufacturing and low cost. I just had a few Discipline V2 FR4 plates made at JLCPCB along with the PCBs and they came to $7.60 including shipping and VAT (I'm in the EU).
The ability to use the copper layer for aesthetic purposes is an added bonus, and it's basically free. Polaris FR4 plate was executed very nicely.
You're right that KiCad should be able to create the plate file automatically if you have the right footprint that has the switch cutout on a separate layer. I haven't tried this myself yet but will do very soon as I'm finally planning to make a PCB for a unusual ortho/ergo board that I call "Flying V" :)
I'm just starting PCB design, I kind of know my way around KiCad now, but how do I get the cutout footprint for designing an FR4 plate?
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take your layout from http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/
and paste it into http://builder.swillkb.com/ or https://kbplate.ai03.com/
to generate your plate files.
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The keyboard I am using now has FR4 plates.
https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full-size-split-ortholinear?variant=32248810766430 (https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full-size-split-ortholinear?variant=32248810766430)
It's nice.
I only finished building it a couple weeks ago, and I'm still getting used to it. Never had an ortholinear board before.
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Yeah it's actually a lot more common than you think. My personal favorite execution of it has been on my Discipline, because the aesthetics just fit so nicely and it sounds pretty good too. However, I personally don't think it would look good on every setup.