Well I'm not a SC2 player but gaming tournaments and servers sound like a cool idea. If anybody's interested I could run some tournaments free (maybe TF2, Minecraft or CS) as I have Windows Azure servers in Ireland :DWell if you were interested in sponsoring us that would be great!
Well I'm not a SC2 player but gaming tournaments and servers sound like a cool idea. If anybody's interested I could run some tournaments free (maybe TF2, Minecraft or CS) as I have Windows Azure servers in Ireland :DWell if you were interested in sponsoring us that would be great!
I'm down for an FPS tourny, not the best but I enjoy them. I bet Arson would be down as well.
I'd be down for a 1on1 in something like Warsow, or a team tourney in something like CS or TF2, although I don't really see me participating as I don't think there are enough European players to make it happen here, and I'm certainly not participating in a US tourney as the lag would be a killer.
Yeah. I could do a DT vs GH grudge match!
Any game except battlefield and cod series.
Warsow =]
Warsow =]Warsow is awesome, and unlike TF2 it doesn't take up a boatload of space.
Black Light Retribution go go.Not the worst idea, but that'd rule me out unless I created another account. It refuses to recognise my login info after I changed password, when I look at their forums I see it's been a problem for about a year now. Not pleased.
Warsow =]Warsow is awesome, and unlike TF2 it doesn't take up a boatload of space.
I don't really play video games anymore but I used to be pretty decent at Quake3Arena. By the way, that game is free and cross platform, and it's a REAL game.
I'll try that, but I'm still hoping for Xonotic. I like Center aligned weapons.You get the same thing in Warsow. Though it really doesn't matter which one; Q3, Warsow and Xonotic all seem to be pretty much the same game with negligible differences. I do prefer the look of Warsow, though. If you turn on the simplified competitive textures it still looks pretty good.
Well regardless of the game, or of the region for those who can't or don't want to participate I will stream it for those who want to watch. Should be fun to get everyone involved, even those who don't have the game or don't want to play :D
Problem with CS is that you have this huge divide with really good players on one side and complete noobs on the other. Very hard to find a middle ground.
Updated list with iArson's suggestion.
I do think that we, if possible, should host multiple game types. For instance, we could have a best 2/3 match for different types of games, like CS, TF2, MWO, Xonotic/Quake style game, RTS, MOBA, etc.
This competition is now sponsored by Techkeys.us !
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff362/TymCooper/Bannerjpgcropped978x263o00s980x330_zps3ce66e60.jpg)
(http://www.techkeys.us/)
This competition is now sponsored by Techkeys.us !
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff362/TymCooper/Bannerjpgcropped978x263o00s980x330_zps3ce66e60.jpg)
(http://www.techkeys.us/)
;)This competition is now sponsored by Techkeys.us !
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff362/TymCooper/Bannerjpgcropped978x263o00s980x330_zps3ce66e60.jpg)
(http://www.techkeys.us/)
That's Cool!!! Does this mean key cap prizes? :))
Other thought, regardless of what game is chosen I think it best to have a fresh map that is not a default one. It's no fun playing against people that have every pixel of a map memorized in case of games that people play a lot of.
All the participants should get a "participant" keycap...something like a keycap with this:Show Image(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2pkVe2nYQfpdLVCCpKoOkJuxNVmCpzx_6O7lcaphlzgsqXT_4)
Kind of design, except custom designed, saying "I PARTICIPATED" and what team you were on. Just a thought, not that we have to do it.
Participation award? Really? Only winner should get anything.
Participation award? Really? Only winner should get anything.
I say participation and winners keys!
TF2 sounds good to me.
Updated the list with another game I would like to see: Tribes: Ascend.
missing me
That probably would be a good idea.
People who have EXPRESSED INTEREST! NOT A PERMANENT LIST OF PEOPLE PLAYING!
Luke
Tym
inteli722
iArson (may be streaming instead
lysol/IvanIvanovich
ApocolypseMaow
The_Beast
Flip
JesuswasaZombie
vun
verbhal
bear95
phetto
4LI4Z
metalliquaz
Also updating the list to include Doom, as suggested by Flip
So for servers, New York is pretty much a must when na/eu collide.
At least that is manageable in CS, but I don't know how to rent servers in other games lol :P
What do you think?
I don't like team play. I mostly just play deathmatch because I hate paying attention and just want to kill everything that moves. Got tired of people whining about all my team killing. Freindly fire FTW b!tches!
TF2 would be fun but we'd have to have a groundwork for rules, as there's so much variety in gameplay, weapons, set bonuses etc. TF2 is designed for larger teams as well (think 9 man highlander, not 3 person teams.)
I don't like team play. I mostly just play deathmatch because I hate paying attention and just want to kill everything that moves. Got tired of people whining about all my team killing. Freindly fire FTW b!tches!
I'm exactly the opposite, which is why I loved ND so much. All about teamwork and group play, going from the commander overseeing everything and making the plans, to the squads fufilling the objectives, to the individual soldiers managing themselves and undertaking orders. . . but you really can't play with teams smaller than 9 guys (like TF2)
Come to think of it, I still have a boatload of ND keys (10-15ish?) in a text file somewhere on my PC that I got from the devs back when I ran one of the only clans for it.
http://www.nucleardawnthegame.com/
Check that out, I could probably hook a bunch of people up with keys (even if that doesn't turn out to be the tourney game, they're just lying around as-is)
I don't like team play. I mostly just play deathmatch because I hate paying attention and just want to kill everything that moves. Got tired of people whining about all my team killing. Freindly fire FTW b!tches!
I'm exactly the opposite, which is why I loved ND so much. All about teamwork and group play, going from the commander overseeing everything and making the plans, to the squads fufilling the objectives, to the individual soldiers managing themselves and undertaking orders. . . but you really can't play with teams smaller than 9 guys (like TF2)
Come to think of it, I still have a boatload of ND keys (10-15ish?) in a text file somewhere on my PC that I got from the devs back when I ran one of the only clans for it.
http://www.nucleardawnthegame.com/
Check that out, I could probably hook a bunch of people up with keys (even if that doesn't turn out to be the tourney game, they're just lying around as-is)
I LOVE Nuclear Dawn! That might just be the ultimate solution -- RTS AND FPS!
Still want Xonotic and Team Fortress, though.
I was always an America's Army player. Nice thing is, it's free. Also used to run a Ventrilo server outta my house so we could work as a team.
I was always an America's Army player. Nice thing is, it's free. Also used to run a Ventrilo server outta my house so we could work as a team.
So is that suggesting America's Army???
Either way, added both you and boost to the player list, and added America's Army.
I don't like team play. I mostly just play deathmatch because I hate paying attention and just want to kill everything that moves. Got tired of people whining about all my team killing. Freindly fire FTW b!tches!
I'm exactly the opposite, which is why I loved ND so much. All about teamwork and group play, going from the commander overseeing everything and making the plans, to the squads fufilling the objectives, to the individual soldiers managing themselves and undertaking orders. . . but you really can't play with teams smaller than 9 guys (like TF2)
Come to think of it, I still have a boatload of ND keys (10-15ish?) in a text file somewhere on my PC that I got from the devs back when I ran one of the only clans for it.
http://www.nucleardawnthegame.com/
Check that out, I could probably hook a bunch of people up with keys (even if that doesn't turn out to be the tourney game, they're just lying around as-is)
I LOVE Nuclear Dawn! That might just be the ultimate solution -- RTS AND FPS!
Still want Xonotic and Team Fortress, though.
I'll have to check that out when I get home, looks like it comes highly recommended :)
As for loadouts, one thing tf2 has always been good at is equal loadouts so that shouldn't be a problem.
Hi, all! OP here, I have been enjoying all your comments and taking them onboard. I still like CS but I will really play anything! :D
I don't think the name should have Techkeys in as they are not running it, only sponsoring it. So still looking for names :)
I will start a new thread at a later date with details on, as well as prizes. If you have any questions you want to ask me feel free to PM or ask here.
The $1 entry fee is to cover server costs which maybe incurred/go towards prizes. Techkeys.us is sponsoring us with prizes (so the latter becomes irrelevant) and I will go into more detail again at a later point.
Regards,
Tym
As for loadouts, one thing tf2 has always been good at is equal loadouts so that shouldn't be a problem.
HAHAHA. . .
wait, you're serious? You're telling me the Huntsman, the FaN, the Kunai and the Black Box are all balanced, legitimate sidegrades from the stock weapons?
never mind some of the others that completely sidestep the original intention of the weapon it's replacing like the chargin' targe/aladdin's wee booties which basically turn the demoman into an instant kill, line of sight melee character, or the backburner which, for the longest time didn't have the airblast that took all the skill out of pyro, or the milk man set which grants +25 hp (which is more than it sounds if you're a scout) just for wearing a hat and using 2 alt weapons
Honestly playing TF2 with no restrictions would be a huge minus for me. I've played since beta and I still use mostly stock weapons because when last I played (which has been a while because of the issues I stated above) almost every single unlock is easier to use than the stock weapon, with a few caveats. The Dead Ringer and the Cloak and Dagger are obviously made for players who don't care to take the time to properly learn to manage cloaking.
/rant
With all that said, let's play soldner.
We have so many suggestions for games, why don't we do a "nintendo world championship" style tournament. Teams of x people compete in (3?) different games and whichever team gets the most "points" (W/L) progresses in the ladder to the eventual finals.
We could do games from 3 different engies. Source could be represented by TF2 or CS, one of the quake games for the quake engine, and then doom or one of the other F2P games. Since it's unlikely that somebody would be proficient in all 3 games played that would eliminate one ringer carrying the team as well.
Also i'll throw in "GeekShot" as a possible title since we don't have many suggestions. I might think of one I like better later but for now throw that in the hat.
We have so many suggestions for games, why don't we do a "nintendo world championship" style tournament. Teams of x people compete in (3?) different games and whichever team gets the most "points" (W/L) progresses in the ladder to the eventual finals.
We could do games from 3 different engies. Source could be represented by TF2 or CS, one of the quake games for the quake engine, and then doom or one of the other F2P games. Since it's unlikely that somebody would be proficient in all 3 games played that would eliminate one ringer carrying the team as well.
Also i'll throw in "GeekShot" as a possible title since we don't have many suggestions. I might think of one I like better later but for now throw that in the hat.
I would rather have different Genres/Subgenres: We could have a Source Game, a Quake-style game, something like Nuclear Dawn, Tribes, and something like MechWarrior/WoT/WoWP, and each of the 2 teams gets points based on how well they performed (how many people they lost, how many kills, did they go for the capture or elimination, etc), and whichever team has the most total points ends up with the win.
Alternatively, we could do a 4 team ladder for each game, and do a scoring system based on how they place, then add up the scores accordingly (winner is the one with the highest score.) I'm not entirely sure how large teams should be, but I'm thinking that 2 teams of 10 may be a bit too large.
Any items that are a "one-hit-kill" (e.g. Scout sandman and cleaver combo) require so much skill and timing that 90% of the time you would be better off taking them out with the primary weapon (blasting them 3-4 times with the scattergun).
I'm not entirely sure how large teams should be, but I'm thinking that 2 teams of 10 may be a bit too large.
Any items that are a "one-hit-kill" (e.g. Scout sandman and cleaver combo) require so much skill and timing that 90% of the time you would be better off taking them out with the primary weapon (blasting them 3-4 times with the scattergun).
Where you're saying that the one hit kill weapons take "skill and timing" I'd say it takes luck more than anything. Spam arrows at a doorway that you know enemies are rushing through and you're bound to get a headshot eventually. In my opinion the one hit kill weapons are for scrubs who aren't good with the regular weapons, because they CAN'T land "3 or 4" solid hits with the scattergun, so they grab the FaN, rush in and unload both shots on a heavy and duck back behind cover, reload, and let a teammate finish the heavy off or hop back in for the miracle last hits.
I might be a little more sore on the issue because some weapons (the demoman metal is hp sword comes to mind) are so blatantly OP For arena that it's like they totally forgot it's in the game, and when I do play TF2, that's what I play.
Anyways, I wasn't looking to start a pissing match, and still don't want this to become that. I was just voicing my opinion on why I would personally like to see (certain?) unlocks restricted. I still use some unlocks consistantly. Like you said you'd be an idiot not to replace the soldier's shovel, or swap for a kritzkreig if that's what the game calls for, but I never use the minisentry or huntsman, for example, unless i'm trying to troll somebody.
Ok, I agree. To be honest if there's one thing I would change about TF2 it would be to remove the Huntsman because you are right it is just pure luck :P, anyway as you said this isn't the place to start a debate over TF2. Lets talk about some keyboards and get this back on track xD
Psh keyboards. Hardcore fps gamer use controller, preferably Atari paddles :))
Psh keyboards. Hardcore fps gamer use controller, preferably Atari paddles :))
Psh keyboards. Hardcore fps gamer use controller, preferably Atari paddles :))Show Image(http://newnation.sg/wp-content/uploads/inception-squint-300x195.png)
AHA! I found you! Well, you found me... but anyways. (sorry to the OP for off topic) Who sold you the CCnB set? I remember when they went on sale, but don't remember the seller.
Im so in
I vote for Battlefield 3
Okay, looks like I have 18 Keys for ND (17 raw text keys, 1 steam gift)
I personally have one and it sounds like inteli has one, so if we plan to go ahead with the tourney I can do 18 copies of ND. Other than that the game is 30 bucks for a 4 pack, so we could raise the entry fee as needed to fill the extra spots, or something.
Okay, looks like I have 18 Keys for ND (17 raw text keys, 1 steam gift)
I personally have one and it sounds like inteli has one, so if we plan to go ahead with the tourney I can do 18 copies of ND. Other than that the game is 30 bucks for a 4 pack, so we could raise the entry fee as needed to fill the extra spots, or something.
I had 7 extra copies...but I gave them away :D
If I had known we would've needed them, then I would have kept them.
anyways, All for Nuclear Dawn as a game in the Tourney...It disappoints me how small the community is.
Okay, looks like I have 18 Keys for ND (17 raw text keys, 1 steam gift)
I personally have one and it sounds like inteli has one, so if we plan to go ahead with the tourney I can do 18 copies of ND. Other than that the game is 30 bucks for a 4 pack, so we could raise the entry fee as needed to fill the extra spots, or something.
I had 7 extra copies...but I gave them away :D
If I had known we would've needed them, then I would have kept them.
anyways, All for Nuclear Dawn as a game in the Tourney...It disappoints me how small the community is.
too true. IWS tries so hard to keep it on life support too but everybody is too busy playing COD and BF. I'm sure it's the need for teamwork and lack of vehicles that loses ground.
I'd be up for some CS:S or CS:GO. :)
I'd be up for some CS:S or CS:GO. :)
What he said. CS and **** the rest. We should get everyone on skype and form teams.
I'd be up for some CS:S or CS:GO. :)
What he said. CS and **** the rest. We should get everyone on skype and form teams.
See post above yours.
is Goldeneye Source free?
Voted.Pie charts are the future bro!
Pie Chart? I always preferred graphs and, when possible, venn diagrams.
But I digress. Like to see where this goes.
Voted.Pie charts are the future bro!
Pie Chart? I always preferred graphs and, when possible, venn diagrams.
But I digress. Like to see where this goes.
Na, Only joking...I do like pie charts but they are rather pointless. I'll make you a bar chart or maybe just some good ol' result tables :D
Depends what's in the pie, horse or beef? ;)
Depends what's in the pie, horse or beef? ;)
Minced. Doesn't matter as long as it gets the job done, i'm not a sentimental person.
Are you from the US Internetlad? :)
Are you from the US Internetlad? :)
Canada originally, but I emmigrated to the US on a "marriage" visa (not that i'm implying I didn't get married, but the actual name is exceedingly cryptic.)
Not just in the UK, in Germany and other EU countries too.
Are you from the US Internetlad? :)
Canada originally, but I emmigrated to the US on a "marriage" visa (not that i'm implying I didn't get married, but the actual name is exceedingly cryptic.)
Only reason I ask is because I'm not sure if the horse problem is affecting you, in the UK we have a bit of a crisis at the minute where horse meat has been found in supermarket store burgers. :P
Results can be seen here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhfW3PuBKH2EdEx5ZldFeXZKUVM1TC1QUjlaUjhZdmc&usp=sharing)
Anyone fancy making a graph? I am tired as **** right now, will do it tomorrow if no-one beats me too it :D
Results can be seen here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhfW3PuBKH2EdEx5ZldFeXZKUVM1TC1QUjlaUjhZdmc&usp=sharing)
Anyone fancy making a graph? I am tired as **** right now, will do it tomorrow if no-one beats me too it :D
I do not at all understand that chart. Are there supposed to not be any total numbers or are they listed as most popular to least by what was picked? Why do some only have 1 game whereas other rows have 3?
ow my brains.
Not a chart, results of the questionaaire, I shall use the data and turn it into a chart at some time in the near future when I am feeling less lazy.
Well locked it up anyhow. :3
Noooo! It's not finished, I took your advice and stopped people seeing the outcome lol!
Nice results, is it really fair to concatenate the results for cs though? unless we decide a single game :P
So are we playing one game or multiple? :D
I'll leave up the Jay-Z one.
Nice results, is it really fair to concatenate the results for cs though? unless we decide a single game :P
So are we playing one game or multiple? :D
Noooo! It's not finished, I took your advice and stopped people seeing the outcome lol!
Oh. Should I take down my graph then?
I'll leave up the Jay-Z one.Nice results, is it really fair to concatenate the results for cs though? unless we decide a single game :P
So are we playing one game or multiple? :D
I was thinking that too. As you can see the one guy seems to specify that he wants 1.6, whereas I don't even have 1.6.
A bit of a double edged sword. On one hand it basically guarantees that some iteration of CS is making it in, and that only one iteration does so. On the other hand some people will be unhappy about "BUT I VOTED SPECIFICALLY FOR COUNTER STRIKE X or Y" and not want to play the one that gets picked.
not much we can do about it at this time unless we scrap the whole vote and start over with specific options for each.
Not at all, everyone voted a specific version amiryt? So just count them as completely separate games, simplez :D
That's the problem trying to please everybody all the time. Everybody has a different idea of what's best lol.
Regardless, as long as there's not a large investment for me to play (IE BF3) i'm game for whatever.
Quick sidenote bf3 is only about $15 if you get the Russian version (like me) cheap and educational!
Yeah I agree Luke. 1 game, but how should we do that? Brain is too lazy, you guys work it out and ill give you hugs :)
Ill give the vote 24 hours and release the information we can then live with our choices...
Why didn't you just tell google docs to make a nice graph of the results automagically and link us to said results? It's an option now, all you have to do is select yes turn that gizmo on (Publish and show a link to the results of this form).Not in this form of results with multiple choice/other option
Oh my god, I literally just realized.
TechKeys = Techies
Wow. Well played !3oiler.
Heh, brings me back to my competitive quake days.
Anyways: since there's obviously many different people here, with different os'es and preferences, the game should IMHO be:
Free, cross platform, and a game(as in not a plugin).
This would make it playable from everything from a Mac OSX box to a windows box to a OpenBSD box.
Also; the game should IMHO be playable at any ping since we have a few euro players, and many us player.
The ping requierment is almost impossible, but it should atleast be semi-playable, and then people can regulate between home and away server.
Heh, brings me back to my competitive quake days.
Anyways: since there's obviously many different people here, with different os'es and preferences, the game should IMHO be:
Free, cross platform, and a game(as in not a plugin).
This would make it playable from everything from a Mac OSX box to a windows box to a OpenBSD box.
Also; the game should IMHO be playable at any ping since we have a few euro players, and many us player.
The ping requierment is almost impossible, but it should atleast be semi-playable, and then people can regulate between home and away server.
I'm nearing 2000 ;)
We've officially decided that, for this tournament, we're playing Team Fortress (which is: Free, Cross Platform, and an actual game). There will likely be more tournaments due to the amount of support we got (I wanted to play Xonotic, but meh. I've got over 900 hours in TF2...so yeah...)
24th is fine, but what time it starts might be problematic as it is a workday for me.
(I wanted to play Xonotic, but meh. I've got over 900 hours in TF2...so yeah...)
Well we were working on the idea of using GMT as a base. What is 8pm GMT like for you (I think UTC is GMT-8)?
(I wanted to play Xonotic, but meh. I've got over 900 hours in TF2...so yeah...)
If these tournaments go well, we are planning to play xonotic, warsow and the free version of quake arena in a compilation tournament at a later date.
Signed up but I never played TF2 before. Anyway it's going to be fun, is there a official date by now?
Is there going to be a list of blacklisted weapons? Or is any weapon good?
I'm concerned about Lucksman snipers and Gunslinger Engies... :eek:
The following set hats are banned from use:
Ol’ Snaggletooth
Familiar Fez
Orange maps... Reminds me of Day of Defeat Source which I'm also decent at, and love.Dod on orange maps ;D those were the days!
Pl_Branblitz and Pl_Badwater are a MUST
I would rather have really easy to learn maps because we have people who have never played TF2 before joining, so knowing maps will be a really obvious advantage, and with random team selection, skill could be stacked.
I say the Original CP_orange map. No frills, very open, and possibly the easiest map to learn.Show Image(http://pnx.jrnetwork.net/stats/hlstatsimg/games/tf/heatmaps/cp_orange_x3-kill.jpg)
This isn't a true competitive tournament, nor was it ever going to be. This is having fun with other people. There are people who have never played before, so we want easy to learn maps. While I'm fine with Badlands, I think a map or that has no hidden secrets would be preferable, and I think Orange_X3 perfectly suits that. It's a flat map with obvious cover and a big tower in the middle. It's an extremely easy map to learn. I think we should have a majority's approval on the map, but I think for our purposes that Orange_x3 suits us fine.
I can vouch for anything where both teams are doing the same thing for this. I would LOVE for some hightower love, but that's not to be in this tournament...
Howabouts some Hightower as a fun thing after the event?
What is it with Hightower? Its not a good map
EDIT: If we play KOTH, its has to be Viaduct
What is it with Hightower? Its not a good map
EDIT: If we play KOTH, its has to be Viaduct
I said specifically AFTER the tournament is over.
I prefer Nucleus for KOTH. I don't really like Viaduct. Please stop dictating what we need to do, as it's a community thing.
The tournament is just for fun anyways.
2FORT
In all seriousness; CTF is awesome. It's pretty much the only gamemode I play.2FORT
no CTF maps...I don't like CTF.
Check it out; the server IP "GeekHack.cloudapp.net"
Type this in the console "Connect GeekHack.cloudapp.net "
anyone up for some tf2 in abit ?
I waited for you, Tym and Luke.Sorry mate, writing this from the toilet, I am in agony no clue why but 3 years worth of meals have been through me in the last hour :(Show Image(http://vidya.dyndns.org/d2/board/src/1298052017184.jpg)
I waited for you, Tym and Luke.Sorry mate, writing this from the toilet, I am in agony no clue why but 3 years worth of meals have been through me in the last hour :(Show Image(http://vidya.dyndns.org/d2/board/src/1298052017184.jpg)
I can see if my friend would like to join (Luke's already met him). He's not really a keyboard geek, but he's a pretty good TF2 player. He could probably function as a backup if we don't get another sign-up.Awesome! We don't need to all be keyboard geeks! Just gamers! Can you ask him to fill out the form? Cheers, he doesn't need an account just so I can get his details?
I think the server crashed.
Oh yeah, 1 thing. Can you get rid of AFK kick please?
Feel free to add me as well. CAPITAL LETTER MAN! (Not the heavy, the picture of the guy, there's two.)i deleted you >.> Sent you an invite!
Oh yeah, 1 thing. Can you get rid of AFK kick please?
So it's hosted in UK? Interesting. I may wanna just spectate if that's allowed, maybe record the matches.
server's down.
yeah, we will need a stand in for Space yeti...sorry guys. Anyone got friends :3
So team 1 needs another person for match 2 and if team 1 wins they get a prize!
I will cheer for the blu team ^___^
phetto you not playing? :3 thought you were? if you didnt sign up thats fine, just bad memory.
This game is far from pub, if you have the right config, right maps, class limits and weapon bans. I guarantee you'd get destroyed by and 6v6 team ^-^I still view it as a pub game, and the fact that you need to ban classes and weapons for it to be competitive is a warning sign right there.
4v4 is too little, lets do 6v6 next time. Not sure if we can use the same server though, probably best anyway because people were complaining about the lag :) haha
sweden has 90 ms to newyork, if anyone is up for a cs1.6 aimmap 1on1 shootout =)
I proposed hosting in New York as it's kind of a middle-ground for good latency. Also another option is to host the different games at different locations -- like TF2 obviously is in UK, next game in the tourney can be hosted in California or NY
Me and jcrouse vs all