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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: laffindude on Wed, 20 March 2013, 22:36:12

Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Wed, 20 March 2013, 22:36:12
Continued from: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg828166#msg828166

Silent Matias Alps board would be pretty nice.
PCB layout should be easy enough to change once the GH60 PCB have been finalized (if Komar isn't interested in making the changes in layout, he could send someone the source files).

Keycaps should be available in the same sizes as Cherries, but don't know about doubleshots. Single shot ABS plastic ones in "stanard" layout should be dead easy to get.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Wed, 20 March 2013, 23:17:02
Sourcing the right key caps could be a problem. Especially the modifier row since ALPS key caps tend to be all over the place. Safest bet would be to harvest them from Dell 101Ws which have standard 1.25 mods. You'd also need a correct plate which shouldn't be too hard either.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tricheboars on Thu, 21 March 2013, 00:28:31
oh ****. matias custom quiet switches would be wicked dope on a mini board.  we would have to cannibalize matias boards though. i doubt they sell the switches.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 21 March 2013, 00:51:28
oh ****. matias custom quiet switches would be wicked dope on a mini board.  we would have to cannibalize matias boards though. i doubt they sell the switches.

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/matias-alps-switches-taking-pre-orders-t4931.html
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tricheboars on Thu, 21 March 2013, 02:25:25
ok wow. there they are. and cheap. i am going to buy some.

what about the plate? can we use a cherry plate to mount alps switches? i dont really groove on PCB mount.

i would love a office ninja board. the matias switch would be perfect.  i would be happy with basic keycaps, preferably not matias keycaps though.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 21 March 2013, 02:29:40
Alps require plate mounts. And no cherry plates are not compatible with alps switches.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 21 March 2013, 02:58:20
I have all specs for the plate, I've already made a plate for Alps for another project. That's not really the issue.

Problem are the keycaps. Regarding the stabilizers I have a ducky with alps that actually uses standard costar.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 21 March 2013, 03:59:36
I'll talk to some friends about the caps. I know standard ANSI is not a problem, but ISO I'd have to ask.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 21 March 2013, 04:03:43
I have an ALPS board but I don't care enough about it to open it up or mod it. Are you guys implying that the ALPS switch pins will fit fine with the current MX soldering pads?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 21 March 2013, 04:29:40
nope, you need a new PCB too
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: dante on Thu, 21 March 2013, 08:29:35
You could eliminate the stabilizer issue by going with all 1x1, or some 1x1.25 caps.  SP could produce these.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Thu, 21 March 2013, 09:21:28
we would need a SP ALPS groupbuy for keycaps... But with that color to start? White on black? Black on beige? CCnG?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mashby on Thu, 21 March 2013, 09:24:20
I've just ordered some GH60 boards, but I'd love to build up an Alps version. I'm in.  ;D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Thu, 21 March 2013, 11:21:47
I've just ordered some GH60 boards, but I'd love to build up an Alps version. I'm in.  ;D
Yeah, but would enough people be interested in keycaps? If not, one set would be really expensive...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 March 2013, 11:42:38
I've just ordered some GH60 boards, but I'd love to build up an Alps version. I'm in.  ;D
Yeah, but would enough people be interested in keycaps? If not, one set would be really expensive...

At a MOQ of 50, things start to become not that expensive.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 21 March 2013, 13:58:13
Are we talking about a complete set or just modifiers?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 March 2013, 14:02:36
If we did a complete set of ANSI doubleshots, people could order them for their Filco Zeros, Ducky 1087XM, etc.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 21 March 2013, 21:30:05
I don't know if there'd be enough demand for 50 sets...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Grimey on Fri, 22 March 2013, 09:45:49
If we did a complete set of ANSI doubleshots, people could order them for their Filco Zeros, Ducky 1087XM, etc.

This + a small pack for the Matias keyboard owners to match their different modifiers and that should cover most the modern "ALPS" boards in ANSI-US.  While I suspect there might be enough of an interest for this to happen, I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Binge on Fri, 22 March 2013, 10:15:33
I don't know if there'd be enough demand for 50 sets...

There totally would be.  I think this project would get a fair bit of attention.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 22 March 2013, 10:20:12
DSA + ALPS... mmmh something is moving here below
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 22 March 2013, 10:39:26
I'd be interested in a GH60-Alps setup. I definitely would love to have a Monterey Blue/Complicated Blue or Grey Alps board.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: funkymeeba on Fri, 22 March 2013, 10:47:30
DSA + ALPS... mmmh something is moving here below

You ought not to turn me on at work like that.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 22 March 2013, 10:48:56
DSA + ALPS... mmmh something is moving here below

You ought not to turn me on at work like that.

DSA + ALPS + PBT!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: funkymeeba on Fri, 22 March 2013, 11:11:57
DSA + ALPS + PBT!

Curse you! :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 11:54:35
Continued from: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg828166#msg828166

Silent Matias Alps board would be pretty nice.
PCB layout should be easy enough to change once the GH60 PCB have been finalized (if Komar isn't interested in making the changes in layout, he could send someone the source files).

Keycaps should be available in the same sizes as Cherries, but don't know about doubleshots. Single shot ABS plastic ones in "stanard" layout should be dead easy to get.
Assuming that someone has the ALPs switches footprint I can do it. I'll have to change the cherry switches by alps switches, just that, right?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 22 March 2013, 14:27:45
Continued from: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34959.msg828166#msg828166

Silent Matias Alps board would be pretty nice.
PCB layout should be easy enough to change once the GH60 PCB have been finalized (if Komar isn't interested in making the changes in layout, he could send someone the source files).

Keycaps should be available in the same sizes as Cherries, but don't know about doubleshots. Single shot ABS plastic ones in "stanard" layout should be dead easy to get.
Assuming that someone has the ALPs switches footprint I can do it. I'll have to change the cherry switches by alps switches, just that, right?


Are you offering to make an alps PCB?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 14:51:50
Are you offering to make an alps PCB?
Yup, I'm still waiting for the bluetooth parts to get back to the wireless prototype - then I do have some free time ...
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 22 March 2013, 15:21:56
Wait just a doggone minute. Are we really talking about a fully programmable, customizable layout, Alps switch (Matias), Bluetooth/USB 60% keyboard, with custom DSA profile doubleshot PBT keycaps?

Now I think I'm starting to feel something move down there, also, Matt3o...

Edit: it's no wonder Making Stuff Together is my favorite forum here.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 16:23:50
Wait just a doggone minute. Are we really talking about a fully programmable, customizable layout, Alps switch (Matias), Bluetooth/USB 60% keyboard, with custom DSA profile doubleshot PBT keycaps?
I think so, lucky you I do only have alps switches (blue, black, yellow, fakes and aliens).
I don't have any mathias switches - are they compatible with the "normal"alps?
Just a warning: I'm no Kicad expert, my plan is to get the GH60 Rev B PCB and change the switches there. I think it will be a good Kicad learning experience.
In eagle cad we can draw any part (footprint) unavailable in the library, I'll have to see how to make the same in kicad - this is my first task. I'm assuming that someone will provide the right measuring or guide me to get it using my little loved switches ...

IF it works we can do the same for the GHPad PCB ...

Edit: it's no wonder Making Stuff Together is my favorite forum here.
Mine too.

Now I think I'm starting to feel something move down there, also, Matt3o...
It's a good feeling?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 22 March 2013, 16:36:48
You may have to use a testing version of KiCAD to open the gerbers. I think that's what komar used to create them.

...and soylent green IS people!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 16:41:28
You may have to use a testing version of KiCAD to open the gerbers. I think that's what komar used to create them.

...and soylent green IS people!
Yes, I know, thanks.
You can get this version here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18290329/hosted/KiCad-2012-11-16-BZR3805-testing-Win_binaries-only.zip)
 :)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 22 March 2013, 16:59:30
google chrome advised me to stop downloading because it's not safe. wtf?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 17:12:50
google chrome advised me to stop downloading because it's not safe. wtf?
I did got it from google - seems to be someone's drop box
run your UPDATED anti virus on it and we are okay ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 22 March 2013, 17:22:53
this might be useful

[attach=1]

shouldn't be a big problem to change the switches

one thing to note is that the plate is 1/1.2mm (should be 1.5mm instead for MX I believe)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 17:28:40
this might be useful

(Attachment Link)

shouldn't be a big problem to change the switches

one thing to note is that the plate is 1/1.2mm (should be 1.5mm instead for MX I believe)
Awesome!
I'll get my switches at here to confirm the measures.
I'm going to get out with my wife on a few minutes so I'll have to continue later ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 22 March 2013, 17:41:31
I'm probably asking too much but do you think it's possible to add this to the GH60 group buy before they start manufacturing?
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 22 March 2013, 17:49:56
I'm probably asking too much but do you think it's possible to add this to the GH60 group buy before they start manufacturing?

Too much. :P
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 19:13:46
I'm probably asking too much but do you think it's possible to add this to the GH60 group buy before they start manufacturing?
Assuming that I do succeed you can order it in the https://www.batchpcb.com/ site - they are the cheapest pcb service I know ...

I have searched the rev b files but they are not at the Komar's github ...
Please? anyone?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 22 March 2013, 19:39:23
So you upload your PCB design and they build it?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 22 March 2013, 19:47:53
So you upload your PCB design and they build it?
Yes, they will send the PCB to you - without any components soldered on it.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 22 March 2013, 20:30:39
Where do I source all the other necessary components such as controller chip..etc?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 23 March 2013, 02:40:02
we could even run a mini group buy (like 10/20 units). you might get this prior of the official one :)

the components from mouser I'd say.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sat, 23 March 2013, 03:22:35
we could even run a mini group buy (like 10/20 units). you might get this prior of the official one :)

the components from mouser I'd say.

I would be so down for this!
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 23 March 2013, 08:23:23
BatchPCB is only cheaper for small PCB sizes. At the size of a 60% board, you can get 5 PCBs made by a place like pcbwing.com for not much more than BatchPCB charges for one.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 23 March 2013, 08:36:36
I can have 20 boards at approx 15-20 each from a local store, something more if you want it black instead of green.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 23 March 2013, 10:03:57
BatchPCB is only cheaper for small PCB sizes. At the size of a 60% board, you can get 5 PCBs made by a place like pcbwing.com for not much more than BatchPCB charges for one.
Hmm, I've never sent one board of this size to batchpcb. My bigger board was 5 x 15 ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 23 March 2013, 10:52:02
So, I downloaded the GH60 rev b from Komar's github.

There is one lib on it's design with all used switches. Until so far I saw two types of switches, the normal one and another one with something like half of the width used in the normal switch (I think it's the Stabilizer).

The normal switch: MX1A-simple
The stabilizer switch: MXST

Is that right Komar?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: komar007 on Sat, 23 March 2013, 13:06:27
Yes, correct. My main footprint is MX1A-b, MXST is the stabilizer. The others are either some variations of MX1A-b or its previous versions.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 23 March 2013, 13:17:31
umm, i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but why don't we get the MX version of the board done and out the door before we try to make another variant mmk? :)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: funkymeeba on Sat, 23 March 2013, 13:25:00
I disagree. We want variety, and I think the ALPS fan club is tired of being left out of the fun. :D Either way, the ALPS one isn't going to be ready for some time, so it doesn't hurt to at least get some preparation for it done.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 23 March 2013, 15:36:30
I disagree. We want variety, and I think the ALPS fan club is tired of being left out of the fun. :D Either way, the ALPS one isn't going to be ready for some time, so it doesn't hurt to at least get some preparation for it done.
Sorry, I do disagree too.
What should I do with my alps switches? (don't say!!!)  :D

Question: I'm used to use bended wire + fixation points as stabilizers, never used this cherry stabilizer.

Which one should I use? I did never saw one alps stabilizer ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sat, 23 March 2013, 15:39:14
umm, i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but why don't we get the MX version of the board done and out the door before we try to make another variant mmk? :)

I don't see this affecting the MX group buy in anyway so I don't see a problem.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 23 March 2013, 18:46:31
in that case, the first thing you'll want to do is get a datasheet for and source the stabilizers that matias is using in his new boards. those seem to be the best alps stabs. while he's gotten us some really nice new switches, we still have to solve the stabilizer problem for diy alps boards.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 23 March 2013, 19:50:06
in that case, the first thing you'll want to do is get a datasheet for and source the stabilizers that matias is using in his new boards. those seem to be the best alps stabs. while he's gotten us some really nice new switches, we still have to solve the stabilizer problem for diy alps boards.
Can't we use bended wire with fixation clips like they did into the old keyboards? The major problem I see in this approach is that it requires a plate to make the holes to the fixation clips ...

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerbar.png)

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerSpring.JPG)
Stabilizer Spring (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/cherry-mx-stabilizer-spring-for-keycaps.html), easy to be done at home with one wire bender

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerClip.JPG)
2x WASD Stabilizer Clip (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html), can be done at home with bended wire too
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 24 March 2013, 03:07:08
that's what the Ducky DK1087XM has (green alps)

Edit:
Matias stabs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052662291/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052662455/in/photostream/

although I don't understand this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052667818/in/photostream/
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sun, 24 March 2013, 03:54:46
in that case, the first thing you'll want to do is get a datasheet for and source the stabilizers that matias is using in his new boards. those seem to be the best alps stabs. while he's gotten us some really nice new switches, we still have to solve the stabilizer problem for diy alps boards.
Can't we use bended wire with fixation clips like they did into the old keyboards? The major problem I see in this approach is that it requires a plate to make the holes to the fixation clips ...

Show Image
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerbar.png)


Show Image
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerSpring.JPG)

Stabilizer Spring (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/cherry-mx-stabilizer-spring-for-keycaps.html), easy to be done at home with one wire bender

Show Image
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130323-stabilizerClip.JPG)

2x WASD Stabilizer Clip (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html), can be done at home with bended wire too

I dunno about the Matias switch but as far as I know all alps are plate mounted. So plates will be required. Besides the plate is quite easy to make.

We could make the GH60 Plate/PCB accept a Dell 101W layout. They're relatively easy to acquire for pretty cheap. You can harvest the stabs and key caps which is a standard 1.25 mod ANSI layout.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 24 March 2013, 06:05:10
i can already see a couple of problems here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052662291/in/photostream/

it looks like matias stabilize inserts are rotated alps. we need to confirm that SP can mold caps with the same fixation orientation AND make sure we can sure source these inserts. alternatively, we're going to have to make our own inserts to our own specs. we could, for example, have SP make us caps with center alps mount but cherry stabilizer mounts and then the entirety of a costar style stabilizer...

hmmm
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 24 March 2013, 06:37:11
we could, for example, have SP make us caps with center alps mount but cherry stabilizer mounts and then the entirety of a costar style stabilizer...

this!

I'm waiting for complete stats from SP this week (I gave Mel quite a bit of work to do :P).
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: pasph on Sun, 24 March 2013, 07:39:34
although I don't understand this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052667818/in/photostream/

those are the plastic clips, snap mounted on the plate, where are hooked the stabilizers


http://www.flickr.com/photos/88005189@N05/8052662455/in/photostream/

In the old alps kb the wire was bent outward and not inward
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 11:14:52
I dunno about the Matias switch but as far as I know all alps are plate mounted. So plates will be required. Besides the plate is quite easy to make.
At here, south america, it is expensive - the metal is cheap, we do have lots and lots of minerals but the service price make it uncompetitive.
I saw at the GH60 GB a plate for 16 bucks, I think that jdcarpe is organizing the GB. We can ask him about where he is cutting his plate (BTW: it's aluminum or stainless steel?)

We could make the GH60 Plate/PCB accept a Dell 101W layout. They're relatively easy to acquire for pretty cheap. You can harvest the stabs and key caps which is a standard 1.25 mod ANSI layout.
Can be one dell 102w? I do have one at hand.
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 24 March 2013, 12:30:20
At here, south america, it is expensive - the metal is cheap, we do have lots and lots of minerals but the service price make it uncompetitive.
I saw at the GH60 GB a plate for 16 bucks, I think that jdcarpe is organizing the GB. We can ask him about where he is cutting his plate (BTW: it's aluminum or stainless steel?)

WFD is getting the plates made somewhere, I'm not sure where. They are stainless steel. :)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 13:13:30
WFD is getting the plates made somewhere, I'm not sure where. They are stainless steel. :)
Awesome!!!
Do you it's thickness? I didn't saw it specified there ...
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 24 March 2013, 13:19:46
They are 16-gauge, or 0.0625" thick.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 13:34:01
They are 16-gauge, or 0.0625" thick.
Goooosh, geeeeeeeeee
I hate these imperial metrics, I can't even imagine what's without a calculator ...
1.5875 millimeters ???

I did some research and until so far the best reference for ALPs switches seems to be the DK (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_CM_availability) wiki. I got one Chinese datasheet there but the most important part seems to be the part that Matt3o did posted. (Thanks Matt3o!!!)

And seems that ALPs are not selling them anymore - at least they are not listing them on his catalog anymore ...

Right now I'm watching some youtube videos to get more experience on Kicad.
I created my alps switch module there but I can't believe that I'll have to change all switches, one by one, someone should have thought about some easier way to change multiple parts ...
As I imagined: someone thought about changing multiple parts, awesome!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sun, 24 March 2013, 15:36:04
Yes Dell 102W would work as well. It's just a ISO version of the 101W.

And ALPS went out of business a loooong time ago. Matias is the only one that sort of revived the alps switch. I believe you can just buy their switches from either their website (can't find it) or from 7bit at Deskthority.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 24 March 2013, 19:47:26
i assert that any board designed from scratch have new stock availability of everything in the BOM. no harvesting to build an alps-gh60. i'd rather pay for the tooling to get center-alps/side MX mount caps made by SP than give out a BOM that requires buying a dell at101w and stripping it down to bare board before constructing :P
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 19:55:30
The main change was done.
Now I do need to re-route everything, I'm still looking for the best way to re-route - back to youtube more one time ...
BTW: The final product will be slightly different from the original GH60 rev b.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130324-alps-switch.png)
The ALPS switch footprint (SKCM).

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/20130324-gh60-alps-alpha1.png)
The unfinished GH60 Alps PCB

We still have to decide which kind of stabilizers we are going to use.

I'm fond to bended wire - it can be done at home without much fuzz but we need to decide together right?

Any other option guys???
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sun, 24 March 2013, 19:58:35
i assert that any board designed from scratch have new stock availability of everything in the BOM. no harvesting to build an alps-gh60. i'd rather pay for the tooling to get center-alps/side MX mount caps made by SP than give out a BOM that requires buying a dell at101w and stripping it down to bare board before constructing :P

What is BOM?

So you want to pay the $2500 tooling cost of a space bar? Be my guest.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 20:02:59
i assert that any board designed from scratch have new stock availability of everything in the BOM. no harvesting to build an alps-gh60. i'd rather pay for the tooling to get center-alps/side MX mount caps made by SP than give out a BOM that requires buying a dell at101w and stripping it down to bare board before constructing :P
I'm not sure but I heard somewhere here that the Mathias switches are hole compatible.
IF they are really compatible no big deal - but if they aren't I do agree with you.
However we are not doing this thinking on a GB. The main  board is the Komar's GH60 rev b, this one here is just one free exercise (IMHO).

BOM means "bill of materials"
The parts that you need to buy ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 24 March 2013, 20:05:22
if we stick with alps-mount for the stabilizers, the only option we have is to source stabilizers from matias. the positives of doing this is that we could also source caps from matias, which would likely be slightly cheaper than custom runs of SP caps. however, matias has not made it clear whether he even has enough caps to sell them a la carte, and i'm hesitant to ask him to redirect more parts-inventory than he already has to us.

imo, there's such a paucity of good old-stock alps keys that i'd rather just have new keysets made with hybrid alps/MX mounting. costar stabilizers in MX-mount are easy and cheap to source via WASD, and it's possible that SP's tooling is modular enough that they could make runs of full MX and Alps/MX sets in quick succession without having to spend a lot of operator time messing around with tooling, so we might be able to mix alps/mx sets in with full mx production runs at a slight discount.

i believe matt3o said he's started inquiring about this with SP, so we'll probably have some answers soon..

one last thing to keep in mind is that PCB-mount stabilizers are _not_ an option with new-stock alps-style switches, as they have no purely mechanical fixation mechanism to the pcb like mx switches do. alps switches have to be plated, period.

eta: yes, i'm thinking larger-scale. if you only want to run off a few boards, go for it. at101ws are common enough that 5-10 one-offs could probably be built for not too much money. imo though, it's not worth the effort to do all the board design unless you can order and kit in volume.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 March 2013, 21:09:22
https://github.com/agodinhost/KiCad.git
ghkb-revb-alps folder.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 25 March 2013, 05:53:25
How much interest do you think GH60Alps have? If it is nearing 50, I can just have them made when I have stuff made for my groupbuy. We should be able to get Matias style stabilizers and keycaps too.
*friend recommend not using XM switches with these caps. Not sure if I can share the exact reason, but let's just say XM is slightly out of spec and may break keycap stems.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Mon, 25 March 2013, 06:05:43
I'm also designing a 65% with alps so there might be some interest in the keycaps with both 60 and 65 layouts. Don't know about pcb, plates and so on
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 25 March 2013, 08:24:03
How much interest do you think GH60Alps have? If it is nearing 50, I can just have them made when I have stuff made for my groupbuy. We should be able to get Matias style stabilizers and keycaps too.
*friend recommend not using XM switches with these caps. Not sure if I can share the exact reason, but let's just say XM is slightly out of spec and may break keycap stems.
personally, i'm not crazy about the XM switches anyway (although alaricljs says that swapping the XM GREEN springs into the matias clears feels particularly good; he's weird)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 25 March 2013, 08:43:51
Hey man... Matias' springs are too stiff :P
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 25 March 2013, 09:04:48
How much interest do you think GH60Alps have? If it is nearing 50, I can just have them made when I have stuff made for my groupbuy. We should be able to get Matias style stabilizers and keycaps too.
We need to run one interest check to see it.
Anyone? Please?

*friend recommend not using XM switches with these caps. Not sure if I can share the exact reason, but let's just say XM is slightly out of spec and may break keycap stems.
Sorry, XM switches?? I'm kinda new in the block ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 25 March 2013, 12:17:02
XM is another maker for Alps compatible switches.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 25 March 2013, 14:59:36
Hey man... Matias' springs are too stiff :P
MUST RESIST
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: AKIMbO on Mon, 25 March 2013, 17:09:49
Is this actually happening?  Don't get my hopes up....but for reals for reals....is this happening?!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:06:18
I really think it will happen. It is the main reason I didn't participate in the GH60 group buy.
Especially with the GH60 on the way, an alps version really shouldn't be too difficult. It's just stabilizers and key caps that's problematic so far.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:57:45
I'm gonna go ahead and be that guy who tries to get his private dream keyboard shoehorned into a project.

Any chance of making something that is compatible with Monterey blue Alps-alike switches?  A proper modern layout, plate-mounted keyboard with those babies would be amazing.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: pasph on Tue, 26 March 2013, 06:31:45
Any chance of making something that is compatible with Monterey blue Alps-alike switches?  A proper modern layout, plate-mounted keyboard with those babies would be amazing.

"The keycaps are compatible with Alps CM but the switch has a different mounting hole and pin layout"
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Monterey_switch
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 26 March 2013, 06:34:23
ie, someone needs to desolder one and take measurements to make sure you can fit the holes and traces in with the standard alps pinout.

that someone may very well be you, hashbaz >:D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Tue, 26 March 2013, 06:45:34
I have one desoldered. pinout seems completely different to me. can take pictures if needed.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 26 March 2013, 08:14:37
I have one desoldered. pinout seems completely different to me. can take pictures if needed.
Please, just to be sure, pictures are always good.
I think I do have a hundred at here, I got them from one old Chicony 5181 - someone said it has monterey's switches. To be honesty I don't recognize these switches ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 26 March 2013, 08:47:48
I have one desoldered. pinout seems completely different to me. can take pictures if needed.
Please, just to be sure, pictures are always good.
I think I do have a hundred at here, I got them from one old Chicony 5181 - someone said it has monterey's switches. To be honesty I don't recognize these switches ...

If you check here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41117.0), you might be able to ID your mystery switches. My try bag had monterey blues in it and I included pictures.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 26 March 2013, 09:55:28
If you check here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41117.0), you might be able to ID your mystery switches. My try bag had monterey blues in it and I included pictures.
Damm, by your pictures it seems to be "Fake Monterey MX".

BTW thanks by the link! Awesome reference!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: ishumprod on Tue, 26 March 2013, 15:57:14
http://www.buychina.com/items/buy-one-get-five-aron-the-yi-erlun-106-full-mechanical-keyboard-gaming-keyboard-the-alps-simple-shaft-entry-preferred-xwvsrtspmnh


guys, this is where you will get keycaps :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 26 March 2013, 16:18:38
If you check here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41117.0), you might be able to ID your mystery switches. My try bag had monterey blues in it and I included pictures.
Damm, by your pictures it seems to be "Fake Monterey MX".

BTW thanks by the link! Awesome reference!

Thanks, glad you found it useful. Mr. Interface did those pics so I can't take credit for the pictures. But it was all me for the writeup :P
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 27 March 2013, 17:15:54
err, please, could you guys summarize what we are waiting for?
I'm the new guy in the block so I'm kinda on my toes yet ...
 :)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 28 March 2013, 00:10:24
Anyone set-in in trying to put together a GH60-Alps?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 28 March 2013, 06:49:33
err, please, could you guys summarize what we are waiting for?
I'm the new guy in the block so I'm kinda on my toes yet ...
 :)
There are a few minor roadblocks. Since plate is a requirement with Alps, we need to have plates made. However, not everyone will agree on the layout, so it may be expensive.
Then we need to decide on which stabilizer to use. We will probably use wire stabilizers (AKA Costar style), but do we want to use MX style stabilizer inserts or Alps style?
Then we need to consider what keycaps we're going to use. It needs to fit the layout + stabilizer choice.

We need to balance customization with what can be easily sourced. I mean, if most people are happy with standard 61key ANSI, I can probably bang out a kit for 60-65 USD for PCB+plate+stabilizers+keycaps.
Edit: *above cost calculated @ 50PCB +plates.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 28 March 2013, 08:43:40
60-65 sounds really low. do you have a fab in mind that will pick-and-place for that cheap @ 50 units? if so, let komar and i know asap! :)

keep in mind that it's a 2-layer board..

also, we're waiting to see what kind of caps SP can provide us. if they can provide caps that are compatible mount-wise with matias' caps, and we can source plenty of matias-style stabilizers, then it's just down to plate design, pcb design and fab, which isn't bad at all.

that said, it would be nice to keep this pcb design in sync with komar's MX design, including physical compatibility with any modules that gets designed.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: AKIMbO on Thu, 28 March 2013, 08:44:41
The layout should be 1.5 ANSI...almost all ALPs boards come with 1.5 ANSI mods.  The enter key will be the hardest to source for sure.  There are a plethora of cheap AT101's on ebay which one could harvest caps from.  Stabilizers will be trickier since I've seen several different types on different ALPs boards before (ie. ALPs stabilizer inserts seem to be their own beast). 

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Thu, 28 March 2013, 11:27:02
If we would let SP make the keycaps, the biggest problem would be what color would keycaps be? CCnG? Dolch? Beige?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 28 March 2013, 14:30:17
SP replied to my email.

They already have tooling for all keys up to 1.75u. We would need to buy the stem-tooling for all stabilized keys, spacebars included. This is true for both DSA and DCS families and both ABS and PBT.

Mounting points for the stabilizers could have standard MX stems, so you would end up with 1 centered ALPS stem for the switch and 2 side MX stems for the stabilizers. This solution should be less expensive than a full alps stemmed version.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 28 March 2013, 14:54:52
Footprint????
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 28 March 2013, 17:41:18
SP replied to my email.

They already have tooling for all keys up to 1.75u. We would need to buy the stem-tooling for all stabilized keys, spacebars included. This is true for both DSA and DCS families and both ABS and PBT.

Mounting points for the stabilizers could have standard MX stems, so you would end up with 1 centered ALPS stem for the switch and 2 side stems for the stabilizers. This solution should be less expensive than a full alps stemmed version.
BAM we're in business folks
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 28 March 2013, 17:46:24
So if we go with MX stem mounts for the stabilizers, we don't need to pay for tooling?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 01 April 2013, 13:32:36
So, can I re-route the board or should I wait for the stabs decision?
I'm not quite sure that it will affect the board routing.
I think that up to Saturday I can finish something useful.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Tue, 02 April 2013, 05:04:00
I don't think it matters when you reroute, since stabilizers will be plate mount.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 02 April 2013, 08:17:47
pcb-mount cherry stabs are compatible with appropriately sized plates.

matt3o said there would be a tooling cost, but it was far less than new molds, and probably easier to deal with than having only one potentially unreliable source of stabilizers. regardless, since matias style alps stabilizers are all plate mount, adding holes for cherry pcb stabilizers isn't going to affect compatibility with matias or other caps that use alps-style outer mounts.

afaic we lose nothing by routing for and drilling out holes for cherry pcb mounted stabs. it gives us strictly more kitting and cap options.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 02 April 2013, 12:43:10
Okay, up to Saturday I'll be back at here ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: monday on Sat, 06 April 2013, 05:47:10
I love blue alps they are my favorite!!! and I love 60% boards sooo im cutting down a blue alps board but I would love this.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tricheboars on Sat, 06 April 2013, 15:17:15
1.5 ANSI should be used.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:33:54
1.5 ANSI should be used.
Where?
I mean, on which keys?
I'm newbie, I need a more specific hint, please.
And it's only your opinion or it's general desire?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:41:00
He probably means for row 5 (ctrl and alt)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:54:59
the gh60 generally contains support for 1.5x layouts. the footprints of MX1A switches and alps/fukkas are pretty similar, so i doubt this support will go away when agodinhost (or whoever volunteers) modifies the pcb for alps compatibility.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sat, 06 April 2013, 21:44:49
the gh60 generally contains support for 1.5x layouts. the footprints of MX1A switches and alps/fukkas are pretty similar, so i doubt this support will go away when agodinhost (or whoever volunteers) modifies the pcb for alps compatibility.
I think you are right - there is a bunch of switches overplaced in the GH60 board to support different layouts. If this 1.5x layout is already supported in the current GH60 board it will continue to be supported after I do re-route the board.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tricheboars on Sun, 07 April 2013, 01:51:27
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 07 April 2013, 12:47:07
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
ironically, the point of stabilizers is to have a high amount of wobble in one axis, but only moderate resistance and much less wobble on the other axis. that way, when you press on the stab, the force is distributed across the entire cap.

switches are built to have minimal wobble in both axes and some relatively high design amount of resistance (insert joke about alps wobble here). if you used switches instead of stabs, a side-press on a key would just meet with lots of resistance and not a lot of force distribution. basically, you'd be trying to actuate the side-switch in a situation where the other switches on the key were all working against you. you can try this yourself with a bunch of MX switches and a spacebar. it feels pretty bad man.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 07 April 2013, 14:41:04
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
ironically, the point of stabilizers is to have a high amount of wobble in one axis, but only moderate resistance and much less wobble on the other axis. that way, when you press on the stab, the force is distributed across the entire cap.

switches are built to have minimal wobble in both axes and some relatively high design amount of resistance (insert joke about alps wobble here). if you used switches instead of stabs, a side-press on a key would just meet with lots of resistance and not a lot of force distribution. basically, you'd be trying to actuate the side-switch in a situation where the other switches on the key were all working against you. you can try this yourself with a bunch of MX switches and a spacebar. it feels pretty bad man.
I was wondering about this idea too ...
Thanks for the lesson man, you did saved a lot of my time!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Loligagger on Sun, 07 April 2013, 14:53:21
If we would let SP make the keycaps, the biggest problem would be what color would keycaps be? CCnG? Dolch? Beige?

Put it to a vote perhaps? I wouldn't mind a graphite set if it were possible.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tricheboars on Sun, 07 April 2013, 16:45:29
i likes dolch and black or classic 2 tone beige.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 07 April 2013, 21:50:47
once we pay the tooling fees, the set costs will be about the same as any other sp caps
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Mon, 08 April 2013, 06:23:47
In my humble opinion we would need keycaps that would match all case colors. And imo that's classic beige on two tone. Like the one Sherry is sellig.
https://www.originativeco.com/classic-beige-two-tone
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Mon, 08 April 2013, 08:26:50
I'd go white and light grey actually.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:36:57
Newbie question for ya guys.

I did measured one keycap at here and I did got 18mm (so so).
So, whenever I see 1.00u it means 18mm? (if so 1.50u means 1.5 x 18?)
What is the default distance between the keycaps? 1mm?
I did a quick search in the web but there are too many info - could someone narrow it to me?
thanks
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:40:34
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:57:20
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.
Then I assume that the distance is already counted in this 19.05mm, is it right?
The distance should be so so 1.05mm by the size of the keycap that I got ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:03:32
Are you asking because of the plate or PCB?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:07:57
Are you asking because of the plate or PCB?
Both, it's more a checking - the position of the switches are going to be the same ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:16:14
Here's an alps spec'd plate courtesy of KBDMania:

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/alps_01_zps1f86b2f8.jpg:original)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: laffindude on Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:05:03
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.
Is the GH60 designed with 19.05mm or 19mm keyspacing?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:08:14
ALPS specs for the key hole are 15.5x12.8mm

Distance from key center to key center is 19mm as already stated. Gap between keys 3.5mm horizontally 6.2 vertically.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:11:01
GH60, as well as every keyboard that uses cherry switches have "standard" spacing, which is exactly 0.75", so that's exactly 19.05mm.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 10 April 2013, 17:59:03
Okay, okay, PCB almost done (I warned you guys - I'm slow).
I did finished the component re-routing and the latest version is available at github (https://github.com/agodinhost/KiCad/tree/master/ghkb-revb-alps), it was saved using the latest release version of Kicad 2013.03.31.

The DRC (one Kicad option to verify common errors at the PCB design) is complaining about only TWO components that I'll have to see with you what I should do ...

1) Bottom of the PCB, front - holes overlaping/too close. Should I rotate the switch?
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/2013-04-10-PCB-ALPS-error1-.png)

2) Right of the PCB, pad overlaping/too close to a hole. Rotate? What is this hole? There are a few holes in the PCB that I'm not sure about - I think there are way to many holes and I think they were added manually ...
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/94589680/2013-04-10-PCB-ALPS-error2.png)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:05:19
lol I agree the GH60 PCB is like swiss cheese with so many holes. But that's what you get when you want to include as many layouts as possible. What position is it that's overlapping exactly? I'm guessing near the bottom right?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:28:27
lol I agree the GH60 PCB is like swiss cheese with so many holes. But that's what you get when you want to include as many layouts as possible. What position is it that's overlapping exactly? I'm guessing near the bottom right?
Yup, swiss cheese.
picture 1 at Bottom, picture 2 to the right ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 11 April 2013, 07:40:02
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94589680/20130410-PCB-Alps.png)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94589680/20130410-PCB-AlpsHolesToRemove.png)

The white arrows are pointing to the holes that I think that are going to be removed.
I never saw any ALPS PCB mounted stab so I'm not sure of it. The position of these holes are suggesting that they are reserved for the cherry stabs ...
Please, could you confirm it guys?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Loligagger on Thu, 11 April 2013, 19:16:58
Those are indeed holes for PCB mount cherry stabs. Not much point in them since it'll have to be a plate mounted board.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 11 April 2013, 19:41:57
Those are indeed holes for PCB mount cherry stabs. Not much point in them since it'll have to be a plate mounted board.
Awesome.
Removing them ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:08:18
All stab holes removed.

I did noticed that the back of the board doesn't have a ground plane. There is any real cause to not use a ground plane at the back of our PCB guys? A ground plane will simplify a bit the PCB layout (no big deal).

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94589680/20130411-PCB-AlpsBackWithoutGND.png)
The highlighted tracks are redundant with one ground plane.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Tarzan on Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:08:49
I am really looking forward to this board.  I've collected a lot of Alps sets that would be perfect for the compact layout, now all I need is the boards!  And cases, and plates, and cables, minor details.   :))
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:14:29
I am really looking forward to this board.  I've collected a lot of Alps sets that would be perfect for the compact layout, now all I need is the boards!  And cases, and plates, and cables, minor details.   :))
I've there.
Everything but the switches!
 :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:23:59
OH-oh ...
No GH60 logo nor the "open source" gear symbol ...

So, guys?
I can change this logo and the gear symbol so it will be printed using the normal white ink (not copper) but I need to know, first, if I should add or not the ground plane at the back of the PCB ...

Komar007, please, I did noticed that the GH60 board does not have one ground plane on it's back. What do you think about adding one?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Paranoid on Fri, 12 April 2013, 06:10:43
Just tuning in. I am so in for an alps board if this goes through :)
A quick question though since I didn't find info about this (unless I completely skipped it, or maybe it's on the pcb but I can't really tell :D). Will there also be an ISO version available, or is it like the GH60 that it's universal? I know Dell also did this to switch between ANSI and ISO on their AT101W/AT102W pcb. Anyways, my alps keycaps are itching for a nice board ;)
Thanks for all your work so far!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: scumyc on Sun, 14 April 2013, 13:59:54
I don't think adding a ground plane could hurt if you have a decent way to do it without the pcb being more then 2 layers.  I would guess the reason there is not one on the GH60, or any other custom keyboard pcb I've seen, is that a keyboard project is not high enough frequency or noise intolerant enough to see too much benefit from a ground plane.  I'm also interested in hearing Komar007 speak on it but that's my guess.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Fri, 19 April 2013, 01:38:01
Any update on this?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Fri, 19 April 2013, 16:04:42
Any update on this?
Just waiting some answer about the ground plane but the PCB is good to go as it is right now ...
I didn't uploaded these last changes yet.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: purplebanana on Fri, 19 April 2013, 22:08:22
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

ie.
(http://i.imgur.com/reOPlgI.png)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 20 April 2013, 01:55:44
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

1) yes
2) yes
3) the pcb should be a replica of GH60 but with ALPS
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Sat, 20 April 2013, 01:57:17
I don't know about he big enter.. If I remember the big enter had some weird stabilizer locations not present in any of the GH60 layouts.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: purplebanana on Sat, 20 April 2013, 04:15:54
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

1) yes
2) yes
3) the pcb should be a replica of GH60 but with ALPS
Thanks for the response.


I don't know about he big enter.. If I remember the big enter had some weird stabilizer locations not present in any of the GH60 layouts.
Here's a picture of my current keyboard with the big enter key http://i.imgur.com/Lg5os1J.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Lg5os1J.jpg)
Yes, I suppose the stabilizer locations are somewhat weird and thanks for your concern, but hopefully I'll be ok as I plan to deconstruct my Focus 2001 and salvage the keycaps, switches and most likely the stabilizers (which are plate mounted and personally remind me of costar) and the metal plate (which I a friend of the family may be able to help modify).
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 25 April 2013, 10:03:01
So the ground plane is unnecessary right? And the plate is done, correct? Where do we go from here?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: daerid on Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:25:06
I'm definitely in for this. My first mech was a an AT101W and I fell in love with it.

Suggestion: If you're sourcing Matias switches, you should offer the choice between Quiet and Clicky. I know I'd love a clicky alps 60% board.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:25:43
I'm definitely in for this. My first mech was a an AT101W and I fell in love with it.

Suggestion: If you're sourcing Matias switches, you should offer the choice between Quiet and Clicky. I know I'd love a clicky alps 60% board.

I couldn't agree more with this whole statement. I'm definitely going to get in on this buy.
Title: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: remedyhalopc on Mon, 06 May 2013, 13:17:47
Any news? I'm excited for this!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: BlindAssassin111 on Tue, 07 May 2013, 21:31:20
I know I am new to this party, but I am really interested. I recently got an at101w and I love it so much, way more than my mx red board..... Anyways, lets keep this updated!!! I really want one and would rather we come to a consensus about stabalizers, I prefer the stabalizers found on the at101w's because they are easy to install and semi-readily avaliable, Unless matias helps out in that regard. As for layout just supporting ansi and iso with the option of not soldering in a win key is the best idea, allows for compatability and semi flexibility.

Just my 2 cents!! But I am willing to help out if need be (I have Autodesk Inventor, if cases would need to be designed).
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 08 May 2013, 18:58:07
So the ground plane is unnecessary right? And the plate is done, correct? Where do we go from here?
yes, it's ready to go!
We were supposed to go to the building phase but I don't know whom is going to organize it ...
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: RougeR on Wed, 08 May 2013, 19:02:09
time to step up the job hunt -__-
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 08 May 2013, 19:26:53
can someone tldr this thread to catch me up with what's going on with this?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Wed, 08 May 2013, 19:36:14
We would need to test out the PCB first before going into mass production though.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tipo33 on Wed, 08 May 2013, 21:17:50
I will take the burden of being an alpha tester if needed :D  (seriously)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 08 May 2013, 21:29:28
We would need to test out the PCB first before going into mass production though.
And it would be wise - no one revised my design yet.

I will take the burden of being an alpha tester if needed :D  (seriously)
That would be awesome!
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: tipo33 on Wed, 08 May 2013, 21:44:28
We would need to test out the PCB first before going into mass production though.
And it would be wise - no one revised my design yet.

I will take the burden of being an alpha tester if needed :D  (seriously)
That would be awesome!
I am serious,  but my move may hamper efforts.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 21:55:00
If Glissant can beta test the GH60, we can figure out how you can alpha-test the GH60-Alps Tipo33. PM me if needed ^__^
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Wed, 08 May 2013, 22:35:50
Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to add a function row on the top of the GH60 PCB layout?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 08 May 2013, 23:47:49
someone please tldr this. it sounds like there's an alpha level board that needs to be proto'd based on some revision of komar's beta gh60 board. if that's the case, i would hold off, wait until komar has a final last-beta rev of his mx board, then do the same switch transform to get the alps support. the important thing is that the module socket be identical and identically compatible, as well as the controller. (there are some minor changes i think komar is making in controller land).
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: calavera on Thu, 09 May 2013, 00:13:17
TLDR:

Plate and PCB is done. Ready for sample production and testing. Still undecided on stabilizers. I think thats it.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: remedyhalopc on Thu, 09 May 2013, 02:43:09
I'd like an alpha board too. :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 09 May 2013, 08:08:32
TLDR:

Plate and PCB is done. Ready for sample production and testing. Still undecided on stabilizers. I think thats it.
Yes, that's it.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 09 May 2013, 08:42:30
what stabs are the plate/pcb compatible with? note that we haven't paid tooling costs for the hybrid MX/alps keys yet.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:15:27
So, one quick update to keep this project alive.

I talked with Komar007 yesterday or so and he mentioned that his current rev b PCB is not final.

IMO we do have two options now:

a) We could wait until he gets his final version ready and then I would redo/review our ALPs version.
b) We could move on with this version I did based on rev b.

I'm prone to a, if he get's any mistake or error into rev b we will have the same mistake error into our version.

Anyone?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 06 June 2013, 20:16:47
I would definitely prefer option A :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Winther on Sat, 15 June 2013, 21:56:03
I would be interested in trying this, but I dont know if my wallet allows it..

havent read the entire thread - any chance of getting blank ISO set (or nordic ISO set, but I kinda doubt the chances there..)
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Mon, 17 June 2013, 08:26:44
Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to add a function row on the top of the GH60 PCB layout?
I support this idea. If function row is added, then we would really have an unique board.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 17 June 2013, 08:51:55
I can do that - but I think that the final result would be one TKL keyboard and not a 60% keyboard anymore.
We are working on a TKL ALPs variant, take a look at here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44576.0).
It's okay? Or I'm saying BS?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Mon, 17 June 2013, 11:02:58
TKL alps board is cool, but 60% with function row would attract more attention since it would be more unique. Do you guys have any ideas about keycaps?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 June 2013, 11:04:22
In the TKL thread, JD said he was talking to SP to have keycap sets made. Also, I would vote to not have function keys.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Grimey on Mon, 17 June 2013, 11:13:08
Would be willing to test and contribute to whatever would be needed, have plenty of ALPS switches and caps sitting around.  Also able to program teensy/solder/etc. for an Alpha/Beta test.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Mon, 17 June 2013, 11:17:00
Any ideas on keycap colours? Also how do clicky matias switches feel? Like, in comparison with cherry blues switches?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 17 June 2013, 12:10:18
Any ideas on keycap colours? Also how do clicky matias switches feel? Like, in comparison with cherry blues switches?

Not sure on colors for the caps yet. Also, I forgot to mention this before, but Matias is looking to have sets made.

Clicky Matias switches feel like Grey Alps switches. They have a higher actuation point and are a bit heavier than White Alps. I won't compare them to MX Blues because they don't feel the same. They feel like Alps switches.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: llovro on Tue, 18 June 2013, 01:18:02
Any ideas on keycap colours? Also how do clicky matias switches feel? Like, in comparison with cherry blues switches?

Not sure on colors for the caps yet. Also, I forgot to mention this before, but Matias is looking to have sets made.

Clicky Matias switches feel like Grey Alps switches. They have a higher actuation point and are a bit heavier than White Alps. I won't compare them to MX Blues because they don't feel the same. They feel like Alps switches.
Yeah, I know about Matias making keycaps. I tought that clicky matias switches and blue mx switches would be good comparison since they're botth clicky. Also can you make alps switches lighter like mx switches? Are there any springs in alps switches?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 18 June 2013, 08:12:39
Of course there are springs, yes you can make them lighter.  The issue is going to be sourcing lighter springs as they are a different diameter and length than Cherry.  I sourced the lighter springs out of a Ducky 1087XM to stick into the Matias "Quiet Click" and like them very much that way.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: RougeR on Mon, 15 July 2013, 18:14:05
i will be in for one. just saying.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: Dubsgalore on Mon, 15 July 2013, 18:14:41
I might be in for one
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: RougeR on Mon, 15 July 2013, 18:16:18
also im considering building my own custom alps board, where would i go to get a pcb/plate ordered/designed????
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:03:44
also im considering building my own custom alps board, where would i go to get a pcb/plate ordered/designed????
Here!
Don't reinvent the wheel bro - get together with someone already doing this!

Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:05:33
As you already know (if you know) Komar007 released another version of his PCB and he is doing his final tests - this means that soon he will release one final version.

So, in order to take our work back where we left what's still missing?

1) PCB, mine - I will redo the PCB as soon as we get an new official version from Komar007
2) Plate?
3) Stabs, any pending issue related with the plate?
4) Caps?
5) Anything else?

Please, update this little list ...
BUMP
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 03 July 2014, 09:30:14
where are we guys?
kinda lost in time here ...
where did we stopped?
 :D
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 03 July 2014, 09:56:18
Once Matias has keycaps ready, I can design the plate. That solves the stabs issue, I think. komar should be publishing the final GH60 revision PCB in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: alfa147x on Thu, 17 July 2014, 12:44:31
Really excited for this project! Are you still waiting on the keycaps?
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 17 July 2014, 12:45:23
Yes, still waiting. :
Title: Re: GH60-Alps discussion
Post by: rgomes on Fri, 26 September 2014, 22:02:19
Is there a group buy for GH60 ALPS?  Thanks :)