Author Topic: GH60-Alps discussion  (Read 23698 times)

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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 01 April 2013, 13:32:36 »
So, can I re-route the board or should I wait for the stabs decision?
I'm not quite sure that it will affect the board routing.
I think that up to Saturday I can finish something useful.
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Offline laffindude

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 02 April 2013, 05:04:00 »
I don't think it matters when you reroute, since stabilizers will be plate mount.

Offline mkawa

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #102 on: Tue, 02 April 2013, 08:17:47 »
pcb-mount cherry stabs are compatible with appropriately sized plates.

matt3o said there would be a tooling cost, but it was far less than new molds, and probably easier to deal with than having only one potentially unreliable source of stabilizers. regardless, since matias style alps stabilizers are all plate mount, adding holes for cherry pcb stabilizers isn't going to affect compatibility with matias or other caps that use alps-style outer mounts.

afaic we lose nothing by routing for and drilling out holes for cherry pcb mounted stabs. it gives us strictly more kitting and cap options.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 April 2013, 08:19:20 by mkawa »

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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 02 April 2013, 12:43:10 »
Okay, up to Saturday I'll be back at here ...
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Offline monday

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #104 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 05:47:10 »
I love blue alps they are my favorite!!! and I love 60% boards sooo im cutting down a blue alps board but I would love this.

Offline tricheboars

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #105 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 15:17:15 »
1.5 ANSI should be used.
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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #106 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:33:54 »
1.5 ANSI should be used.
Where?
I mean, on which keys?
I'm newbie, I need a more specific hint, please.
And it's only your opinion or it's general desire?
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Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #107 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:41:00 »
He probably means for row 5 (ctrl and alt)

Offline mkawa

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #108 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 20:54:59 »
the gh60 generally contains support for 1.5x layouts. the footprints of MX1A switches and alps/fukkas are pretty similar, so i doubt this support will go away when agodinhost (or whoever volunteers) modifies the pcb for alps compatibility.

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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 06 April 2013, 21:44:49 »
the gh60 generally contains support for 1.5x layouts. the footprints of MX1A switches and alps/fukkas are pretty similar, so i doubt this support will go away when agodinhost (or whoever volunteers) modifies the pcb for alps compatibility.
I think you are right - there is a bunch of switches overplaced in the GH60 board to support different layouts. If this 1.5x layout is already supported in the current GH60 board it will continue to be supported after I do re-route the board.
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #110 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 01:51:27 »
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #111 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 12:47:07 »
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
ironically, the point of stabilizers is to have a high amount of wobble in one axis, but only moderate resistance and much less wobble on the other axis. that way, when you press on the stab, the force is distributed across the entire cap.

switches are built to have minimal wobble in both axes and some relatively high design amount of resistance (insert joke about alps wobble here). if you used switches instead of stabs, a side-press on a key would just meet with lots of resistance and not a lot of force distribution. basically, you'd be trying to actuate the side-switch in a situation where the other switches on the key were all working against you. you can try this yourself with a bunch of MX switches and a spacebar. it feels pretty bad man.

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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #112 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 14:41:04 »
what about using switches instead of stabilizers for certain keys?
ironically, the point of stabilizers is to have a high amount of wobble in one axis, but only moderate resistance and much less wobble on the other axis. that way, when you press on the stab, the force is distributed across the entire cap.

switches are built to have minimal wobble in both axes and some relatively high design amount of resistance (insert joke about alps wobble here). if you used switches instead of stabs, a side-press on a key would just meet with lots of resistance and not a lot of force distribution. basically, you'd be trying to actuate the side-switch in a situation where the other switches on the key were all working against you. you can try this yourself with a bunch of MX switches and a spacebar. it feels pretty bad man.
I was wondering about this idea too ...
Thanks for the lesson man, you did saved a lot of my time!
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Offline Loligagger

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #113 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 14:53:21 »
If we would let SP make the keycaps, the biggest problem would be what color would keycaps be? CCnG? Dolch? Beige?

Put it to a vote perhaps? I wouldn't mind a graphite set if it were possible.

Offline tricheboars

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #114 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 16:45:29 »
i likes dolch and black or classic 2 tone beige.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #115 on: Sun, 07 April 2013, 21:50:47 »
once we pay the tooling fees, the set costs will be about the same as any other sp caps

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Offline llovro

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #116 on: Mon, 08 April 2013, 06:23:47 »
In my humble opinion we would need keycaps that would match all case colors. And imo that's classic beige on two tone. Like the one Sherry is sellig.
https://www.originativeco.com/classic-beige-two-tone

Offline Matt3o

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #117 on: Mon, 08 April 2013, 08:26:50 »
I'd go white and light grey actually.

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #118 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:36:57 »
Newbie question for ya guys.

I did measured one keycap at here and I did got 18mm (so so).
So, whenever I see 1.00u it means 18mm? (if so 1.50u means 1.5 x 18?)
What is the default distance between the keycaps? 1mm?
I did a quick search in the web but there are too many info - could someone narrow it to me?
thanks
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #119 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:40:34 »
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #120 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:57:20 »
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.
Then I assume that the distance is already counted in this 19.05mm, is it right?
The distance should be so so 1.05mm by the size of the keycap that I got ...
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Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #121 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:03:32 »
Are you asking because of the plate or PCB?

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #122 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:07:57 »
Are you asking because of the plate or PCB?
Both, it's more a checking - the position of the switches are going to be the same ...
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Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #123 on: Tue, 09 April 2013, 19:16:14 »
Here's an alps spec'd plate courtesy of KBDMania:


Offline laffindude

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:05:03 »
The switches are mounted at 0.75" which is 19.05mm, from center-to-center. That is 1U.
Is the GH60 designed with 19.05mm or 19mm keyspacing?

Offline Matt3o

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:08:14 »
ALPS specs for the key hole are 15.5x12.8mm

Distance from key center to key center is 19mm as already stated. Gap between keys 3.5mm horizontally 6.2 vertically.

Offline WhiteFireDragon

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 01:11:01 »
GH60, as well as every keyboard that uses cherry switches have "standard" spacing, which is exactly 0.75", so that's exactly 19.05mm.

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 17:59:03 »
Okay, okay, PCB almost done (I warned you guys - I'm slow).
I did finished the component re-routing and the latest version is available at github, it was saved using the latest release version of Kicad 2013.03.31.

The DRC (one Kicad option to verify common errors at the PCB design) is complaining about only TWO components that I'll have to see with you what I should do ...

1) Bottom of the PCB, front - holes overlaping/too close. Should I rotate the switch?


2) Right of the PCB, pad overlaping/too close to a hole. Rotate? What is this hole? There are a few holes in the PCB that I'm not sure about - I think there are way to many holes and I think they were added manually ...
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:04:09 by agodinhost »
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Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:05:19 »
lol I agree the GH60 PCB is like swiss cheese with so many holes. But that's what you get when you want to include as many layouts as possible. What position is it that's overlapping exactly? I'm guessing near the bottom right?

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:28:27 »
lol I agree the GH60 PCB is like swiss cheese with so many holes. But that's what you get when you want to include as many layouts as possible. What position is it that's overlapping exactly? I'm guessing near the bottom right?
Yup, swiss cheese.
picture 1 at Bottom, picture 2 to the right ...
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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #130 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 07:40:02 »




The white arrows are pointing to the holes that I think that are going to be removed.
I never saw any ALPS PCB mounted stab so I'm not sure of it. The position of these holes are suggesting that they are reserved for the cherry stabs ...
Please, could you confirm it guys?
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 April 2013, 17:06:15 by agodinhost »
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Offline Loligagger

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #131 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 19:16:58 »
Those are indeed holes for PCB mount cherry stabs. Not much point in them since it'll have to be a plate mounted board.

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #132 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 19:41:57 »
Those are indeed holes for PCB mount cherry stabs. Not much point in them since it'll have to be a plate mounted board.
Awesome.
Removing them ...
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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #133 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:08:18 »
All stab holes removed.

I did noticed that the back of the board doesn't have a ground plane. There is any real cause to not use a ground plane at the back of our PCB guys? A ground plane will simplify a bit the PCB layout (no big deal).


The highlighted tracks are redundant with one ground plane.
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Offline Tarzan

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #134 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:08:49 »
I am really looking forward to this board.  I've collected a lot of Alps sets that would be perfect for the compact layout, now all I need is the boards!  And cases, and plates, and cables, minor details.   :))

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #135 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:14:29 »
I am really looking forward to this board.  I've collected a lot of Alps sets that would be perfect for the compact layout, now all I need is the boards!  And cases, and plates, and cables, minor details.   :))
I've there.
Everything but the switches!
 :D
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Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #136 on: Thu, 11 April 2013, 20:23:59 »
OH-oh ...
No GH60 logo nor the "open source" gear symbol ...

So, guys?
I can change this logo and the gear symbol so it will be printed using the normal white ink (not copper) but I need to know, first, if I should add or not the ground plane at the back of the PCB ...

Komar007, please, I did noticed that the GH60 board does not have one ground plane on it's back. What do you think about adding one?
« Last Edit: Fri, 12 April 2013, 07:39:11 by agodinhost »
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Offline Paranoid

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #137 on: Fri, 12 April 2013, 06:10:43 »
Just tuning in. I am so in for an alps board if this goes through :)
A quick question though since I didn't find info about this (unless I completely skipped it, or maybe it's on the pcb but I can't really tell :D). Will there also be an ISO version available, or is it like the GH60 that it's universal? I know Dell also did this to switch between ANSI and ISO on their AT101W/AT102W pcb. Anyways, my alps keycaps are itching for a nice board ;)
Thanks for all your work so far!

Offline scumyc

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #138 on: Sun, 14 April 2013, 13:59:54 »
I don't think adding a ground plane could hurt if you have a decent way to do it without the pcb being more then 2 layers.  I would guess the reason there is not one on the GH60, or any other custom keyboard pcb I've seen, is that a keyboard project is not high enough frequency or noise intolerant enough to see too much benefit from a ground plane.  I'm also interested in hearing Komar007 speak on it but that's my guess.

Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #139 on: Fri, 19 April 2013, 01:38:01 »
Any update on this?

Offline agodinhost

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #140 on: Fri, 19 April 2013, 16:04:42 »
Any update on this?
Just waiting some answer about the ground plane but the PCB is good to go as it is right now ...
I didn't uploaded these last changes yet.
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Offline purplebanana

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #141 on: Fri, 19 April 2013, 22:08:22 »
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

ie.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 April 2013, 22:13:40 by purplebanana »

Offline Matt3o

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #142 on: Sat, 20 April 2013, 01:55:44 »
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

1) yes
2) yes
3) the pcb should be a replica of GH60 but with ALPS

Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #143 on: Sat, 20 April 2013, 01:57:17 »
I don't know about he big enter.. If I remember the big enter had some weird stabilizer locations not present in any of the GH60 layouts.

Offline purplebanana

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #144 on: Sat, 20 April 2013, 04:15:54 »
I might be interested in this groupbuy, although I have 3 initial questions and I apologize if they are somewhat redundant:

1) Will it be the exact same size as the poker/pure/gh60 pcb?
2) Will we be using the same controller and software for programming our personal layouts as the regular GH60 project?
3) Does the PCB support an ansi winkeyless layout (with 7xSpace)? (Also, on a side note, I'd be using a Big Enter Key because it would look awesome on a 60% keyboard)

1) yes
2) yes
3) the pcb should be a replica of GH60 but with ALPS
Thanks for the response.


I don't know about he big enter.. If I remember the big enter had some weird stabilizer locations not present in any of the GH60 layouts.
Here's a picture of my current keyboard with the big enter key http://i.imgur.com/Lg5os1J.jpg
Yes, I suppose the stabilizer locations are somewhat weird and thanks for your concern, but hopefully I'll be ok as I plan to deconstruct my Focus 2001 and salvage the keycaps, switches and most likely the stabilizers (which are plate mounted and personally remind me of costar) and the metal plate (which I a friend of the family may be able to help modify).

Offline calavera

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 25 April 2013, 10:03:01 »
So the ground plane is unnecessary right? And the plate is done, correct? Where do we go from here?

Offline daerid

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:25:06 »
I'm definitely in for this. My first mech was a an AT101W and I fell in love with it.

Suggestion: If you're sourcing Matias switches, you should offer the choice between Quiet and Clicky. I know I'd love a clicky alps 60% board.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #147 on: Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:25:43 »
I'm definitely in for this. My first mech was a an AT101W and I fell in love with it.

Suggestion: If you're sourcing Matias switches, you should offer the choice between Quiet and Clicky. I know I'd love a clicky alps 60% board.

I couldn't agree more with this whole statement. I'm definitely going to get in on this buy.
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Offline remedyhalopc

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GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #148 on: Mon, 06 May 2013, 13:17:47 »
Any news? I'm excited for this!

Offline BlindAssassin111

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: My Mind
Re: GH60-Alps discussion
« Reply #149 on: Tue, 07 May 2013, 21:31:20 »
I know I am new to this party, but I am really interested. I recently got an at101w and I love it so much, way more than my mx red board..... Anyways, lets keep this updated!!! I really want one and would rather we come to a consensus about stabalizers, I prefer the stabalizers found on the at101w's because they are easy to install and semi-readily avaliable, Unless matias helps out in that regard. As for layout just supporting ansi and iso with the option of not soldering in a win key is the best idea, allows for compatability and semi flexibility.

Just my 2 cents!! But I am willing to help out if need be (I have Autodesk Inventor, if cases would need to be designed).