[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

Mod Edit: removed "orders now open!" from the subject.


The web site is a go! Time to order your Brand New Model F Keyboard!  $160,000+ in orders so far! 

Please head to http://www.ModelFkeyboards.com to place your order! In general, keyboards ship out by the timestamp of your order - first in, first out!

This thread is for discussion of ongoing development of the Brand New Model F Keyboards project, including the ultra compact cases and split right shift (HHKB style) options.  Please head to the group buy for discussion on project updates and ordering options.  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.0

F62/F77 Prototype testing, brief teardown, and sound comparisons with original IBM keyboards

F62 / F77 features:
Only new parts will be used - not New Old Stock or used part pulls from other keyboards (you can use your original IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp caps - they will be compatible)
Metal top and metal bottom case, like the original
Metal top and metal bottom inner "sandwich" plates with interlocking tabs, like the original
Model F barrels and full-size capacitive flippers, all injection molded for accuracy/durability (not 3D printed)
2 mm foam like in my original F77
Ships fully assembled at no extra charge - no further soldering will be required. You will put on the feet though!
Cork-rubber feet, plus a small selection of rubber feet (cork-rubber feet like the PC XT Model F keyboard)
Top and bottom case powdercoated in a color similar to the original "off white/beige" color, black, or similar to industrial gray (or you can pick your own color and pay extra for tooling)
New buckling springs made to original Model F spring tolerances (ideally)
Keys to be sourced from Unicomp (or you can provide your own keys). To use brand new one-piece dye sub keys instead, someone else would need to take on production of the keys.
Layouts can be adjusted at the factory, or you can adjust them later for international versions
Metal tabs attached to the top inner assembly for the Model M style spacebar stabilizer wire - no plastic pieces like in the original
Packed like a new keyboard: in two custom white EPS foam shells and in a close-fitting brown double-walled cardboard box
Fully assembled in China
10 foot monoprice USB cable with ferrite core
Extra barrels (AT-style) and capacitive flippers will be produced and made available for purchase separately (for other projects and for replacement parts)
Any other suggestions?

After everyone interested has placed their order and sent payment, please be aware that it will be several months before your order arrives.

Working Prototype photos:
















Mod Edit: removed "orders now open!" from the subject.

[Ellipse]

To make this project complete I would hope to make single-piece Model F keys with nice texture and deep black, thick legends, but this is for another year or for someone else

The expansion header will be present so it should be possible to add your own solenoid, buzzer, or LED lights.

The case will be die cast like the original if the tooling is not out of reach, or maybe CNC milled. I am considering standard powder coated zinc like the original or maybe anodized aluminum.

Regarding a prototype, yes I will be getting a prototype to make sure the parts fit. Not to worry, they will adjust the tooling if something does not fit. I have incorporated standard manufacturing tolerances into my designs and have done a preliminary CAD assembly. But for some parts there cannot be a prototype made without tooling done, like for anything injection molded. I may order prototypes for just the main parts like top and bottom cover and top and bottom inner assembly and then test it with some of my existing F77 parts like barrels and flippers.

Here are the parts planned:
Top metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
Bottom metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
Top inner assembly - cold rolled steel
Bottom inner assembly - cold rolled steel
Inside foam - 2 mm open cell, not sure of the type of foam yet.
Clear mylar sheet (below the PCB)
Barrels
Flippers
Outside EPS foam top shell
Outside EPS foam bottom shell
Cardboard box

[Karura]

Not a reasonable price at all.

[Melvang]

Not a reasonable price at all.

For the amount of work needed, parts needed, this price I am guessing is fairly low.  If I have the money, I would get one of each.

[Air tree]

Not a reasonable price at all.

Some people spend $500+ on Korean customs, I don't think $350 for a board that is so rare and so sought after is a bad price...

F**k me, I spent $260 in total on my HHKB, I'd happily pay $350 for a brand new kish...

[Melvang]

Would it be possible to make cases of this style to fit the AT and the XT?

That I think might get some support as well.

[Karura]

Fair enough, I agree that factoring in all the tooling, design, and everything required to get this made, $350 really isn't so much, but as for a Kishsaver, or bucking spring keyboard, they were south of $200 a while back when they were found by tinnie.

That said, they aren't available anymore (and I haven't seen them sold for a while), so for a brand new keyboard, a recreation of the Kishsaver with nice new parts, I can get behind it.

It's a moot point to mention that they were available for a lot cheaper in the recent past! (My apologies)

Also to be more on topic, whether the board is worth $350 would also depend on the quality of the manufacturing done.

Do you have any plans or strategy to ensure the quality control is up to par?

The reason I would like to mention this is because I have friends that have outsourced the manufacturing of audiophile (headphone) amplifier aluminum enclosures to China, and the moment you least expect it, they will try to substitute materials for cheaper alternatives and it is a serious concern, if we want to have an amazing end product.

Sometimes it will require you to personally visit the factory and keep an eye on things, or atleast have someone in China to oversee the production.

You have my support for this project, frankly it is very interesting and I hope it will be a big success. Looking forward to the updates!

[CPTBadAss]

****....I'm not even sure I can process this right now lol. I'd be extremely interested in seeing a working prototype. I think $350 is a bit much but...I really can't say anything bad about someone wanting to make a new Kishsaver. Stoked to see where this will go.

Does powercoating have to be in RAL? Or do some shops want Pantone? A shop I've worked with in the past wanted Pantone instead.

[Data]

I'm guessing MX compatible key caps are completely out of the question for something like this.

[Melvang]

I'm guessing MX compatible key caps are completely out of the question for something like this.

See Matt3o's BS to MX adapter stems.

[Ellipse]

If anyone has any advice on ensuring good quality control besides having someone supervise in person, I am all ears.  I am especially interested to hear from those who have done group buys before and what they did to keep things in line.

I do own some 4704s including a used F77 and brand new F77 (photos in an old thread) and have specified the components to be identical to the original where possible.

The price tinnie decided on in late 2013 does not reflect how much F62s or F77s cost to make new or what people are willing to pay for it now.  Tooling is extremely expensive for just a few units, so the more people buy, the better per unit price you can get.  The last kishsaver that sold on eBay was bought by a DT member for over $500.

The price will likely be lower than $350 if there is enough interest - of course a lower price would attract more interest.  I posted this a week ago over on DT and there are already 100 posts and about 50 keyboards requested on the interest list.

The feasibility of this project is solely based on manufacturing costs.  The quotes are still coming in.  I am looking to redesign the case as that is currently the most expensive part of the keyboard.  Zinc or zinc alloy is just too expensive to cast from molds for a short run.  I will probably need to go with anodized aluminum instead to get the price down to $350.

It might be cool to have the case made of a single CNC milled piece of aluminum if that can be done cost effectively.

Regarding quality:  I have done some manufacturing in China before - two PCB runs for xwhatsit's Model F and beamspring controllers but admittedly nothing else.  I will only agree to quotes from places that agree to re-make any parts not up to standard - the same agreement for the aforementioned PCB runs.  I am open to working with someone who can recommend any places that do CNC milling/lasering/etc.

Karura - regarding your note to me on key legends, Unicomp is able to make the front printed keys like those on the original F77/F62.  I hope to arrange a group buy to get a lower cost for the keys if there is enough interest.  They charge around $30 for a full key set I believe.  You can also pull keys to use from your existing Model F/M keyboards and save a little on cost.  Though you'd have to give up one keyboard for parts if you ever decide to pass on the new F77/F62.  Regarding tolerances, the old IBM keyboards were made with good tolerances for 1980s manufacturing, which are certainly much easier to meet today and are not as difficult to achieve.  I have also built in these same tolerances into my CAD renderings.  For example the case has 1 - 2 mm of wiggle room even on the finished F77 to allow for a generous variation in part size relative to what can be demanded today.  I will be inspecting each part and comparing it with my original example to help ensure all is well or to tell them to remake a part.  And yes I hope to offer extra parts like cases and barrels/flippers as spares - the more parts offered, the lower the unit cost can be.  It seems like you are experienced with manufacturing in China - please share your experiences with me or what you've heard either here or through PM - I would appreciate it!  Regarding your example with material substitution for aluminum enclosures, how did your friend catch it and did the factory fix the bad units?

Melvang - the issue would be with tooling.  There would have to be enough interest for metal conversion of the PC AT / XT / F122 keyboard case for a run of them.  And then someone has to design them.

Air tree - I found a good example I think of what you're talking about here:  http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/custom-kbds-w-assembly/77-gon-ns-nerd-108-w-tuningassembly.html (I'm not affiliated with the seller).  I see many of those "flat layer" aluminum type enclosures and will try to put a CAD model together for something similar for this F77/F62 if the original case can't be made cost effectively enough.  A quote that came in recently would require around 150 preorders of either the F77 or F62 design individually for the original F77/F62 style die cast mold to be cost effective for this project.

[heedpantsnow]

Wow

[intelli78]

I will do my best to join this GB if it becomes a reality. $350 is an extremely good price for what we'd be getting, it's about the same price as your run-of-the-mill k-custom kit. No idea how anyone could think otherwise.

[Elrick]

I know this is the hardcore Buckling Springs group here (correct me if I'm wrong) so if this thing takes off who will be building this new keyboard from scratch?

Would love to be a part of this Group Buy but afraid I may be tossed aside because of being a CherryMX fiend.  Love to try another type of keyboard that is built solidly and become a showpiece for everyone wanting to use a BS keyboard.

If the GB organizer can fill me in here with the vital info concerning this build and whether or not it's for complete newbs (myself) or for extremely technical people, to be involved with this.

[Air tree]

I'm a newb with BS for the most part, and I'm still interested as hell in this..Always fun to learn something new, eh? 

[byker]

Will definitely keep an eye on this one!

[joey]

You have piqued my interest.

[azhdar]

Interested.

[Techno Trousers]

I have an XT, an AT, a Kishsaver, and 3 F-122s. I have always wanted an F77 as a sort of Model F TKL.

My dumb question is: I'm 100% behind bringing the exquisite Model F into the future. But why not bring the layout to the future too? I'd actually much rather have a full TKL Model F with the function key row than a new F77 replica. And I bet a lot of people would really like a 75% model F.

All that said, I am potentially in for an F77 if you really want to stick with the "classic" form factor.

[intelli78]

I was thinking about this a bit, wanted to throw out an idea. You could take this opportunity to design a completely new, modernized capacitive buckling 60%. Obviously this idea is a non-starter if you feel the entire point of the project is replicating the Kishy for historical reasons. But if it's more about having a functional keyboard, it seems worth considering a design update. Most notably w/r/t the case. Have you thought about this option?

[Techno Trousers]

I was actually thinking about the case cost as well. If a "modern" TKL/75%/60% model F keyboard were designed based on the construction of the F-122, it would have a simple flat steel bottom and a plastic top, which should help quite a bit in reducing overall costs. Just look at aluminum cases for modern Cherry TKL boards. They can easily cost more than the entire keyboard they are enclosing. Granted it's partly an economy of scale too in that case.

It seems like there would be broader interest in a modern layout as well, and you'd potentially attract all of the buyers who already own one or both of the classic boards you're planning to replicate.

[Melvang]

I was actually thinking about the case cost as well. If a "modern" TKL/75%/60% model F keyboard were designed based on the construction of the F-122, it would have a simple flat steel bottom and a plastic top, which should help quite a bit in reducing overall costs. Just look at aluminum cases for modern Cherry TKL boards. They can easily cost more than the entire keyboard they are enclosing. Granted it's partly an economy of scale too in that case.

It seems like there would be broader interest in a modern layout as well, and you'd potentially attract all of the buyers who already own one or both of the classic boards you're planning to replicate.

The thing with the economics of scale comparing these cast cases with custom cases that are killed is they are totally different manufacturing processes.  With the cast version, a large chunk of the cost is just in making molds, and if you want to tweak anything, that means new molds, or machine out the change.  Depending on the change either one or only o e will work for different reasons. 

With the milled cases, the largest portion of the cost is in the material, and time/labor.  These costs don't scale nearly as well as the cast versions. 

[Ellipse]

Hi intelli and Techno Trousers - yes the intent of the project is to get as close to the original F77 and F62 as possible.  You can adjust the layouts to any layout that a Model M would support, like ISO enter, split backspace, split left shift, etc.  Plus the F77 has 15 extra keys on the right side that you could make into a number pad and cursor keys or something like the SSK with Insert/Home/etc. keys, cursor keys, and print screen/etc keys.  But for cost reasons I may have to redesign the case to something resembling the flat layers of a Korean custom or the like.  I would be tempted to add more keys like function keys and other keys but then it gradually comes closer to a PC AT or F122, which are relatively plentiful and would not sell for a price that would reflect current manufacturing costs in my view.

Melvang - yes the tooling and CNC setup are the most expensive parts.  Making any die cast mold is expensive, even for relatively simple parts.

Elrick - this project is not just for the technical minded.  The xwhatsit Model F controller configuration software is a GUI and I can even distribute layout files that you can customize later on.  The keyboard will likely come unassembled from China but I may assemble some units myself to do some testing and for those who do not want to put it together themselves.  I'll probably post an assembly video.  It shouldn't take more than an hour or so to assemble. 

[intelli78]

Sounds good! I really hope this project succeeds.

Another suggestion - have you considered chatting with somebody at Unicomp? As the premier authority on buckling spring keyboards, you never know what kind of helpful info/advice they might be able to provide.

Will be watching with interest!

[Ellipse]

Yep Unicomp has advised me on materials composition for the barrels/flippers.

Also wcass pointed me in the right direction on which silver 4704-style labels to buy, so I will be able to add serial numbers and dates to each F62/F77 with a label like the original but with no logo. 

Did you know that the flippers/pivot plates actually use glass filled plastic for strength - that's why if you take out an original flipper and try to bend it, it's not easy to do even though the flipper is so thin.  Not sure if this is necessary or whether it just extends the pivot plate life from 50 million to 100 million keystrokes or something...

[RoastPotatoes]

Will we be seeing prototypes? This is an incredible project but I would like to see one put together.

[Ellipse]

Yes I would at a minimum like to order the case and top/bottom inner assemblies to make sure everything fits together.  I have done thorough inspections with my CAD models assembled together to make sure everything fits properly and has enough room to allow for tolerances, which everything does at this point.  But these original components were all built with generous tolerances - they were not designed to fit only if each component was perfect. 

[Techno Trousers]

Hi intelli and Techno Trousers - yes the intent of the project is to get as close to the original F77 and F62 as possible.  You can adjust the layouts to any layout that a Model M would support, like ISO enter, split backspace, split left shift, etc.

Sure, I get it, and like I said, I'll be putting myself down as interested in an F77 repro.

For what it's worth, here are the unavoidable drawbacks I've found in the current "easily obtained" Fs, and why for me a modern TKL F would be far superior to any.

XT: awful layout, won't work without a controller mod, possibly tolerable with a lot of expense and work using Xtant. I'll probably never attempt this one.

AT: no top function keys, esc, or printscr. Big-J enter unless time consuming and exacting ANSI mod is done, no ctrl+alt on each side of space bar without difficult plate modification. Awful space bar feel without modification. No win key mod possible.

F-122: Bonkers massive, needs controller conversion, tough layout unless ANSI-modified, no esc or print screen possible in standard locations, arrow cluster 1 row too high, no spot on PCB for a Win key or equivalent.

Now, even with all of these drawbacks I've worked my way up to a usable collection of these Model Fs an they are my daily drivers because the typing feel is just unbeatable in my experience. But the labor I've put into these is worth way more than $350 apiece, and they're all still compromised in some unavoidable ways.

Capacitive buckling spring keyboards in modern layouts would be so incredible. I'm convinced that a company could carve a nice niche business out of selling them if they could get enough exposure. Just imagine the sales pitches:

Gamer? Forget N-key rollover, try INFINITE key rollover!

Vintage keyboard enthusiast? Try a buckling spring keyboard with Windows keys, top notch build quality, and a much better typing feel than the venerated Model M.

Prefer to buy quality goods? How about keys that could last for two hundred million keystrokes?

I've long wished that Unicomp would consider doing this, but I think now they are mostly just interested in scraping by.

So I'll hold out hope that if this initial run goes well, you'll decide to continue on with some experiments into modern layouts! You'd definitely keep getting my business. I'll bet you'd even be able to convince Fohat.Digs to buy a modern 104/108 key layout Model F. He really loves that ten keypad for some reason.

[Data]

Put me down as "interested" in an F77.

[admiralvorian]

Hi intelli and Techno Trousers - yes the intent of the project is to get as close to the original F77 and F62 as possible.  You can adjust the layouts to any layout that a Model M would support, like ISO enter, split backspace, split left shift, etc.

Sure, I get it, and like I said, I'll be putting myself down as interested in an F77 repro.

For what it's worth, here are the unavoidable drawbacks I've found in the current "easily obtained" Fs, and why for me a modern TKL F would be far superior to any.

XT: awful layout, won't work without a controller mod, possibly tolerable with a lot of expense and work using Xtant. I'll probably never attempt this one.

AT: no top function keys, esc, or printscr. Big-J enter unless time consuming and exacting ANSI mod is done, no ctrl+alt on each side of space bar without difficult plate modification. Awful space bar feel without modification. No win key mod possible.

F-122: Bonkers massive, needs controller conversion, tough layout unless ANSI-modified, no esc or print screen possible in standard locations, arrow cluster 1 row too high, no spot on PCB for a Win key or equivalent.

Now, even with all of these drawbacks I've worked my way up to a usable collection of these Model Fs an they are my daily drivers because the typing feel is just unbeatable in my experience. But the labor I've put into these is worth way more than $350 apiece, and they're all still compromised in some unavoidable ways.

Capacitive buckling spring keyboards in modern layouts would be so incredible. I'm convinced that a company could carve a nice niche business out of selling them if they could get enough exposure. Just imagine the sales pitches:

Gamer? Forget N-key rollover, try INFINITE key rollover!

Vintage keyboard enthusiast? Try a buckling spring keyboard with Windows keys, top notch build quality, and a much better typing feel than the venerated Model M.

Prefer to buy quality goods? How about keys that could last for two hundred million keystrokes?

I've long wished that Unicomp would consider doing this, but I think now they are mostly just interested in scraping by.

So I'll hold out hope that if this initial run goes well, you'll decide to continue on with some experiments into modern layouts! You'd definitely keep getting my business. I'll bet you'd even be able to convince Fohat.Digs to buy a modern 104/108 key layout Model F. He really loves that ten keypad for some reason.

I am supporting this build in the simple hope that one day I may be able to get a "modern" SSK

[Ellipse]

Here are some prototype renderings for the F62 and F77 with the powdercoated original off white/beige finish and the clear coat style finish. These are not how they will look because the colors and textures are not accurate - it's just to display the renderings.

The last picture is a side profile wireframe view. You can see that the main metal parts all have 1 mm or more of "give" or space and do not have to fit perfectly together or require high tolerances. So even if the bend radius of the plates are slightly off in some examples, they would still fit the case.

Also notice the expensive folding design of the original 4704 bottom inner assembly has been altered to an XT or AT style bend of the plate, and the interior case features have been corrected to fit the design.

Do people prefer 1" cork feet like the original XT or rubber adhesive feet?  I am open to recommendations from McMaster-Carr (they have lots of cork and adhesive pads to choose from) and other places.  I can probably offer both cork and some kind of rubber.

[Techno Trousers]

Looks great! I vote for the clear coat look, and rubber feet for durability over cork.

[Melvang]

I vote for the cork.  I feel it doesn't transmit vibrations into the desk near as much as the rubber.  Stick on felt might be an option as well.  With the weight, a high friction material is less critical.

[Vizir]

Am interested, as well.

[livingspeedbump]

Very interested in this. Will be curious to see how this plays at. $350 is kind of pricey, yet at the same time it feels like that is almost lower than I'd expect.

[FrostyToast]

I have filled out my interest and I am looking forward to see if this will become yet more vaporware.

[Ellipse]

Frosty - I have just about everything in place now except for the case and foam.  I am trying to find out the particular type of 2 mm thick Ensolite foam used - I have been told a lot of Ensolite foam has the "skin" as shown in the attached photos of my original F77's foam.  With die casting I would need about 200 preorders of each type F62 and F77 to get it down to $350 total.  I am looking into CNC milled aluminum, either anodized or powder coated (or maybe even a choice for both if it's not too expensive and there is enough interest in both finishes).

[Melvang]

Frosty - I have just about everything in place now except for the case and foam.  I am trying to find out the particular type of 2 mm thick Ensolite foam used - I have been told a lot of Ensolite foam has the "skin" as shown in the attached photos of my original F77's foam.  With die casting I would need about 200 preorders of each type F62 and F77 to get it down to $350 total.  I am looking into CNC milled aluminum, either anodized or powder coated (or maybe even a choice for both if it's not too expensive and there is enough interest in both finishes).

Another finish you could look into would be Cerokote.  It is extremely durable.  It was designed for gun parts for multiple reasons, one being abrasion and scratch resistance.

I believe that stuff can be applied thin enough to show a brushed finish. 

[0100010]

Flippers will be capacitive?

[Ellipse]

Yes they will be carbon infused so that they are capacitive.

[0100010]

Talked with wcass on PCB design?

[FrostyToast]

200 orders of each might be a long shot. Even more so considering people are unsure of the price of $350 then.
Have you thought about starting a group buy for just one of the options first to reach your goal?

[Air tree]

I wonder what board has garnered more interest thus far... I would guess the F62, but I could be wrong, maybe there is more love for the F77 than I thought.

[poxeclipse]

i'm interested in both

[Ellipse]

Air - There is about equal interest in each one, with slight favor to the F62.

I am confident that CNC milling will bring the costs down to reach $350, so we will not need 200 units to proceed as with a mold. 

If you spend thousands on each case die, each case can be made for less than CNC milling, so I am still waiting for quotes but am leaning towards CNC given we are not making hundreds or thousands of these.

The good news is the other parts have more reasonable costs. 

Anyone want to do a simpler case mockup?  I am open to alternative case designs but not layered boards as people seem to strongly prefer a solid case for these.  Maybe it can primarily be one solid piece of extruded aluminum?

[JaccoW]

Hmmm, posting here to come back for another look.

[AKmalamute]

While I'm 90% sure I have to pass, I just want to say I'm drooling at the possibilities.

 Fully programmable, like any GB keyboard that goes through here? Hardware dvorak 60% BS does  sound enticing.

 The layouts are finalized, then? This is going to have the same sized keys in the same places as the originals did? That part, I might question. I understand keycaps will be an issue but a few 1x blanks shouldn't be that spending to find. Although I really miss the old winkeyless layout with the solid gap between the Ctrl & Alt keys. Sort of a reverse-HHKB if you will.

[Ellipse]

Yes AK the barrels are all in the same place so you can do any layout an original F62 would support. 

The Model M keys are easily found used on eBay or through Unicomp, even one unit blank keys.  They work fine on Model F keyboards.  You can also remove the barrel between ctrl and alt if you prefer.  Each barrel of a Model F can be individually removed.

How many people would prefer to order their F62 or an extra F62 with the HHKB style fn key and shorter right shift key?  This would be a permanent alteration - you can never use a standard right shift key from a model m on your F62 if it is modified for right fn. 

With this layout I would need to move the barrel and create a slightly different PCB.  To be fair I would have to pass along tooling costs and PCB costs for this shorter run.  It would probably be $25 extra if only 5 to 10 people are interested, and less if more people want it for their F62.  Please let me know if you haven't already.

[Air tree]

I think I would prefer the HHKB style of things, but one question, does unicomp have keycaps to accommodate the layout?

[Vizir]

How difficult would it be to make cherry MX compatible stems for this? I'd like a hhkb style layout with the fn key. Why not make a modern version of the classic.