Author Topic: Mouse Ergonomics  (Read 1930 times)

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Offline Hypersphere

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Mouse Ergonomics
« on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 08:51:10 »
While searching for a more ergonomic mouse, I ran across an interesting article:

Liu, C.-H., & Fan, S.-C. (2014). Ergonomic design of a computer mouse for clients with wrist splints. American Journal
of Occupational Therapy
, 68, 317324. http://dx.doi.org/10.5014/ajot.2014.009928

Here is the abstract of the paper:

OBJECTIVE. We explored effects of cutaneous feedback and hump position on efficiency and comfort in
mouse use with a splint. We also analyzed the relationship between anthropometric measurements (width of
hand and length of hand, palm, and index) and the task performance.
METHOD. Thirty participants performed a computer task with two forms of mice (front hump and rear hump)
and two kinds of wrist splints (dorsal and volar). Movement time and satisfaction scores were recorded.
RESULTS. No interaction effect (Hump Position Splint Type) was found on movement time. Movement
time was shorter for rear-hump mouse users than for front-hump mouse users. Movement time was also
shorter for wearers of dorsal wrist splints than for wearers of volar wrist splints. Limited differences existed
in the satisfaction scores. Participants with a longer index finger had shorter movement time.
CONCLUSION. Both dorsal wrist splints and rear-hump mice are recommended. Length of index finger
positively correlated with task performance.

Here is a Figure from the paper illustrating "front-hump" vs. "rear-hump" mice:



Left: Front-hump mouse; Right: Rear-hump mouse

Because this paper dealt with people wearing wrist splints, the conclusions do not necessarily apply to those not wearing wrist splints. However, in my own case (and I do not wear wrist splints), I have preferred the feel of the few mice I have been able to find that have a rear hump (but unfortunately so far, these mice have had issues that were deal-breakers for me). It seems that most mice have a hump that is closer to the middle of the length rather than toward the rear.

Do any of you have recommendations for rear-hump mice? One that is in this category is the Zowie ZA series, which comes in three sizes: ZA11 (large), ZA12 (medium), and ZA13 (small). However, I prefer a right-handed mouse and the ZA series is ambidextrous with side-buttons on both sides. I've also seen several reports about bad scroll wheels on this and other series of Zowie mice. About a year ago, I tried the Zowie EC1-A, and I didn't like the feel of the plastic on the main body of the mouse.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 09:45:32 »
The improvement to mouse ergonomics by altering hump placement is negligible relative to changing to a near Vertical Upright grip..


Just as a high tented Ergodox is superior to ANY layout you can implement on a flat keyboard.  A Vertical mouse is superior in every way to flat mouses.

Online Vladimir

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 13:47:45 »
Quote from: tp4tissue
The improvement to mouse ergonomics by altering hump placement is negligible relative to changing to a near Vertical Upright grip..

Just as a high tented Ergodox is superior to ANY layout you can implement on a flat keyboard.  A Vertical mouse is superior in every way to flat mouses.

Vertical mice are better ergonomically, but you will lost speed.
In which case, NO, a vertical mouse is not superior in EVERY way.
Just try to play FPS with it. You will be able to do it, but just not as good.

But what really annoys me in the forums is when someone try to debate something interesting and new, and people tend to change the subject to the same statements. Wanna talk about a new ergonomic design? Forget it, just use the ergodox! Wanna talk about a new layout? Whatever you come up with is useless, just use Dvorak! There's no debate, usually. It's like trying to find the best motorbike and someone just answer "just buy a car".
The question here is about the height and shape of normal mice and the first answer is about vertical mouse, that has nothing to do with it. I'm assuming that Hypersphere, being a old user, already now about vertical mouse, ofc.

Well, sorry about the drama, I just had to say it. Now, back to topic.
Its seems to me that almost all the tall mice nowadays are hear-hump. Even the ones that don't focus on ergonomics. It's easy to see this with the side view of the Microsoft Arc Touch.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61fQ73wcnuL._SL1500_.jpg
What I particularly had never seen is a front-hump mouse.
Something interesting to mention is this:
"Keep in mind the general position of the hump since that defines the grip needed for the mouse."
http://t3chpro.com/2016/09/properly-reviewing-gaming-mice.html
 
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Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 14:22:36 »
Quote from: tp4tissue
The improvement to mouse ergonomics by altering hump placement is negligible relative to changing to a near Vertical Upright grip..

Just as a high tented Ergodox is superior to ANY layout you can implement on a flat keyboard.  A Vertical mouse is superior in every way to flat mouses.

Vertical mice are better ergonomically, but you will lost speed.
In which case, NO, a vertical mouse is not superior in EVERY way.
Just try to play FPS with it. You will be able to do it, but just not as good.

But what really annoys me in the forums is when someone try to debate something interesting and new, and people tend to change the subject to the same statements. Wanna talk about a new ergonomic design? Forget it, just use the ergodox! Wanna talk about a new layout? Whatever you come up with is useless, just use Dvorak! There's no debate, usually. It's like trying to find the best motorbike and someone just answer "just buy a car".
The question here is about the height and shape of normal mice and the first answer is about vertical mouse, that has nothing to do with it. I'm assuming that Hypersphere, being a old user, already now about vertical mouse, ofc.

Well, sorry about the drama, I just had to say it. Now, back to topic.
Its seems to me that almost all the tall mice nowadays are hear-hump. Even the ones that don't focus on ergonomics. It's easy to see this with the side view of the Microsoft Arc Touch.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61fQ73wcnuL._SL1500_.jpg
What I particularly had never seen is a front-hump mouse.
Something interesting to mention is this:
"Keep in mind the general position of the hump since that defines the grip needed for the mouse."
http://t3chpro.com/2016/09/properly-reviewing-gaming-mice.html
I should amend my initial post by saying that "my recollection" about the position of the hump in mice that "I have looked at" is that the hump tends to be "more or less" in the middle rather than decidedly toward the rear.

I actually cannot say what the mean or median hump position is in a given population of mice because I have not recorded this information.

I also cannot say that one mouse is ergonomically superior to another or that the performance of a given mouse is better than another either because such data were not available or if they were, I did not record the information.

Based on web site information alone, it can be difficult to determine just where the hump is located relative to the length of the mouse because of the way the information is presented on vendors' web sites. At least one major vendor (Steelseries) does not even list the height of the mouse in the specifications.

More vendors ought to provide detailed measurements similar to what Zowie does on their site:

168766-0
http://zowie.benq.com/en/product/mouse/fk/fk1.html

168768-1
http://zowie.benq.com/en/product/mouse/fk/fk1plus.html

For one, thing, this makes it clear that the hump in the FK series is more toward the middle, whereas the hump in the ZA series is more toward the rear of the mouse.

« Last Edit: Fri, 19 May 2017, 14:28:10 by Hypersphere »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 15:34:19 »
Quote from: tp4tissue
The improvement to mouse ergonomics by altering hump placement is negligible relative to changing to a near Vertical Upright grip..

Just as a high tented Ergodox is superior to ANY layout you can implement on a flat keyboard.  A Vertical mouse is superior in every way to flat mouses.

Vertical mice are better ergonomically, but you will lost speed.
In which case, NO, a vertical mouse is not superior in EVERY way.
Just try to play FPS with it. You will be able to do it, but just not as good.


You are wrong ..

I've modded my g303 into an evoluent vertical mouse clone and it works perfectly for fps.

I do not lose any speed..


The fact that you're making such comment is ridiculous, because you don't even own any vertical mouses with a gaming sensor..

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 15:39:48 »
Quote from: tp4tissue
The improvement to mouse ergonomics by altering hump placement is negligible relative to changing to a near Vertical Upright grip..

Just as a high tented Ergodox is superior to ANY layout you can implement on a flat keyboard.  A Vertical mouse is superior in every way to flat mouses.

I should amend my initial post by saying that "my recollection" about the position of the hump in mice that "I have looked at" is that the hump tends to be "more or less" in the middle rather than decidedly toward the rear.

I actually cannot say what the mean or median hump position is in a given population of mice because I have not recorded this information.

I also cannot say that one mouse is ergonomically superior to another or that the performance of a given mouse is better than another either because such data were not available or if they were, I did not record the information.



The position of the hump will make a difference depending on the length of your palm vs fingers ..

But the major bottleneck TO ergonomics in mice is the wrist angle, just as in keyboards.


It's like arguing which wagon is better, between two wagons that do not have suspensions. 

The answer is, they're both bad wagons..



So you're now trying to determine WHICH mouse has the better -hump- placement,   is there a difference yes,   but in the end,  they're BOTH bad mice..  and so the distinction of the hump is fundamentally meaningless and misguided.

Online Vladimir

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 19:22:49 »
Quote from: tp4tissue
You are wrong ..
I've modded my g303 into an evoluent vertical mouse clone and it works perfectly for fps.
I do not lose any speed..

The fact that you're making such comment is ridiculous, because you don't even own any vertical mouses with a gaming sensor..

I didn't explain myself very much 'cause it wasn't the focus of the discussion.
I'm not talking about the sensor or dpi. In this case, you're right.

I'm talking more about personal experience, so I have no studies to show and prove it, but I thought it was general consensus. I might be wrong. Anyway, here's the thing: with the normal "horizontal" mouse, you're supporting the force on the table. Your thumb, in this scenario, is being used just to grip (together with the pinky and ring fingers on the other side). With the vertical mouse, your thumb will be supporting the force of the pressing, instead of the table. It shoudn't be a problem, but when you're playing, sometimes you have to press the mouse too many times in a short period or maybe you got nervous and you start to press stronger. This might lead to applying too much pressure on your thumb or moving the mouse towards your thumb invonlutarily. In the last case you will have to correct the position and lose time in the process (even if we're talking about fraction of seconds, this can still happens a lot).

It could be just an adapation time but could also be personal habit. I've used for a couple months. It was ok for non-competitive games and terrible for those that needs speed like CS. Of course, being personal experience doesn't mean much, the problem could be me, but I've never seen any professional player using vertical mouse (and like you've said, there's no mice with nice sensor, which could mean something).

Quote from: tp4tissue
It's like arguing which wagon is better, between two wagons that do not have suspensions. 
The answer is, they're both bad wagons..
I've got a better example:
You want to pass through a long narrow passage and want to discuss what kind of motorbike gives you the best stability to cross it.
Like the side of a mountain. If you made a mistake, you'll fall into a cliff or whatever.
Someone says "It doesn't matter, they're both bikes, just use any car since they're more stable than any bike by definition".
The guy is right, but of course, he completely ignored the specific need for the situation.

What I'm saying is that you are too radical. You have to understand there are solutions in the middle way.
And most important, even if you ARE presenting the best solution, some people might not want it for whatever reason.
Could be they are still starting this way, so they need steps. It doesn't really matter why. The thing is that we need to be more flexible.

Quote from: tp4tissue
...the distinction of the hump is fundamentally meaningless and misguided.
Can you notice how radical this statement is?

But all of this have nothing to do with the main discussion.





Quote from: Hypersphere
I should amend my initial post by saying that "my recollection" about the position of the hump in mice that "I have looked at" is that the hump tends to be "more or less" in the middle rather than decidedly toward the rear.

I actually cannot say what the mean or median hump position is in a given population of mice because I have not recorded this information.

The first step then, should be to define the kinds of humps, specifically the midle one. Not a description, but with measures.
Otherwise the definition might end up being vague and occur misclassification.

Probably the best way is to find the highest point to find the hump and then find the distance to the specific optimal point of click.
That will be like the wheelbase of a car. Maybe this measure should be compare to the total lenght in order to consider different sizes of mice.

But since you just want to find a mouse for you, ignore all this. :D

Quote from: Hypersphere
I also cannot say that one mouse is ergonomically superior to another or that the performance of a given mouse is better than another either because such data were not available or if they were, I did not record the information.
It would be more complicate than that, since (I believe) it should have different classifications according to types of grip. Anyway, I don't have a list neither.

Quote from: Hypersphere
For one, thing, this makes it clear that the hump in the FK series is more toward the middle, whereas the hump in the ZA series is more toward the rear of the mouse.
Looking side by side I seems you're right. But have you consider that the diferent lenghts gives a different impression?
Or maybe even the fact the one is taller than other? I coudn't trust my eyes so I made a test.
I compare FK2 with ZA12, since the only measure difference between them is the height (or hump).
This is what I've got:

It's interesting to notice that the highest point is always close to the end of the side buttons. Could be just for Zowie.

So...
I don't have any indication right now, but you should do this kind of quick comparison with the side photos to find what you want.
 
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 19:39:49 »


It could be just an adapation time but could also be personal habit. I've used for a couple months. It was ok for non-competitive games and terrible for those that needs speed like CS. Of course, being personal experience doesn't mean much, the problem could be me, but I've never seen any professional player using vertical mouse (and like you've said, there's no mice with nice sensor, which could mean something).


You want to pass through a long narrow passage and want to discuss what kind of motorbike gives you the best stability to cross it.
Like the side of a mountain. If you made a mistake, you'll fall into a cliff or whatever.
Someone says "It doesn't matter, they're both bikes, just use any car since they're more stable than any bike by definition".
The guy is right, but of course, he completely ignored the specific need for the situation.

What I'm saying is that you are too radical. You have to understand there are solutions in the middle way.
And most important, even if you ARE presenting the best solution, some people might not want it for whatever reason.
Could be they are still starting this way, so they need steps. It doesn't really matter why. The thing is that we need to be more flexible.





As you've said, it's about adaptation.  because the mouse is not completely vertical, Some force exerted on the mouse will be downward, and  an adjustment in technique could be used to properly click the switch without rotating the wrist or mouse towards the thumb..

So it's certainly possible.. maybe some angular improvements can be made , but it's already well do-able.. on current iterations.


Your example of A vertical mouse not being able to cross a mountain channel is misleading..


A vertical mouse is akin to flying over that damn mountain without ever setting foot on it..


It solves all your mousing problems..


The Hump is like deciding which narrow path to take,  one with more foliage, or one with steeper curves..

Both choices are bad..


Because fundamentally, you've chosen the least effective way of getting across to the other side,  WHICH is the goal..





Online Vladimir

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 19:50:24 »
I give up. You win.
Jump onto that damn eagle-VerticalMouse and fly away towards the sky, where ErgoDox-sama can finally receive into the ErgoHeaven.
I will stay here on Earth, with reality. :p
 
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Mouse Ergonomics
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 22:13:47 »
I give up. You win.
Jump onto that damn eagle-VerticalMouse and fly away towards the sky, where ErgoDox-sama can finally receive into the ErgoHeaven.
I will stay here on Earth, with reality. :p

I am glad you've seen the light...