Author Topic: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set  (Read 5801 times)

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Offline ander

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Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« on: Sat, 24 June 2017, 20:27:23 »
Sorry, but I couldn't hold it back anymore.

My pulse raced when I saw this on Massdrop:


171514-0


Wow!! A great-looking SA button* set for just $34.99!! The image showed a TKL board, of course, so I'd also need a numpad set for my full-size Cherry board—but how much more could that be if the whole TKL set was just $34.99?

Then I opened the details, and was quickly slammed back to earth:


171516-1


Aha—so $34.99 actually gets you just the core section. To fill it out to a TKL, you must also buy:


171518-2


...which, inexplicably, costs more than the core set. And to complete my 104, I'd also need:


171520-3


...which brings us up to $103.97, plus shipping. And as gorgeous as those buttons are—and no matter how much I've always wanted any kind of SA set—there's no way I could spend that kind of money on a set of keyboard buttons and stay married.

Not to mention, you can buy an entire high-quality MK (with double-shots) for the same dough.

Am I the only one who considers this manipulative, disappointing, ridiculous and/or outright greedy?

 - -
(* Contrary to popular misuse, these aren't "key caps" but key buttons, the term the keyboard industry's used for them since the '60s, and uses to this day. Key caps are the removable upper half of two-part IBM keys, a term IBM coined for that purpose. The Voice in the Wilderness has spoken.)
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 June 2017, 20:33:53 by ander »
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Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 24 June 2017, 20:40:07 »
You've been registered here since 2010 and are just finding this out now? Key set group buys have been split up this way for years. Anything from Signature Plastics costs an arm and a leg.

Oh, and you may as well let go of the "button" thing. You're not going to change the terminology/behavior of the whole community, so you'll sleep better at night if you just accept it.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 24 June 2017, 20:52:26 »
You've been registered here since 2010 and are just finding this out now? Key set group buys have been split up this way for years. Anything from Signature Plastics costs an arm and a leg.

Oh, and you may as well let go of the "button" thing. You're not going to change the terminology/behavior of the whole community, so you'll sleep better at night if you just accept it.

This.  On both points.  Even GBs that aren't through MD do the same thing.  They break them up into sets so you can get the keys for your layout.  And the pricing is pretty standard for Doubleshot SA Keycaps from SP.

Offline ander

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 27 June 2017, 20:51:37 »
You've been registered here since 2010 and are just finding this out now? Key set group buys have been split up this way for years. Anything from Signature Plastics costs an arm and a leg.

Fine, but showing a set with a price lower than that set actually costs?

No doubt it increases the likelihood people will still buy, once they've been induced to scroll through the options—but it seems like a deceptive way to do it, and I don't imagine I'm the only one left with negative feelings.

Oh, and you may as well let go of the "button" thing. You're not going to change the terminology/behavior of the whole community, so you'll sleep better at night if you just accept it.

Oh, believe me, I have no illusions peeps will start using the right term just because I think they should... Hence the "Voice in the Wilderness" thang, which Wikipedia describes thus:

"Voice in the Wilderness or a lone voice in the wilderness is an English idiom for someone who expresses an idea or opinion that is not popular or that the individual is the sole person expressing that opinion with the suggestion that the opinion is then ignored." Although you didn't ignore me, so thanks for that at least.

As a technical writer, I just find the semantics interesting.

A cap, in this sense, is "...something that serves as a cover or protection, especially for a tip, knob, or end." So calling them "caps" implies that they're switch covers, the way the stem in a two-piece IBM key is covered by a (correctly named) cap.

But when people discuss these sets, they're not focused on covering switches; they're focused on discrete objects that are often of great creativity and beauty. It seems to me that insisting on calling them "caps" trivializes them, as though they had no significance other than as switch covers. It'd be like referring to a fine tapestry as a "wall covering".

Finally, I've participated in countless online communities since the Internet began—and when it comes to detail, the KB community is by far the pickiest most discerning (LOL) I've seen. Except, for some reason, with this one thing.

Does "button" sound too old-fashioned? But we spend lots of time discussing vintage stuff, and many key sets—like the SAs we're discussing here—are deliberately retro-looking. So it doesn't seem like there'd be a special hangup about using a term that was historically accurate.

I can't think of any other reason for the continued misuse, anyway. It's a mystery.


Even GBs that aren't through MD do the same thing.  They break them up into sets so you can get the keys for your layout.

Yes, of course, I get that... It was just a letdown, being sucked in by a deal that didn't exist. Honestly, guys, all I meant was exactly what I wrote.
« Last Edit: Tue, 27 June 2017, 21:41:47 by ander »
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Offline ander

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 27 June 2017, 21:07:22 »
I'm also really curious: Is there something about SA sets that actually makes them particularly expensive to make? Or is it just prestige pricing, where people have been conditioned to expect them to cost more?

As it happens, SA is by far my favorite design. I grew up in the era when that's how keyboards looked, and have many fond memories of family and friends using keys like those.

It's also the kind of set I've never been able to own—because basically my wife would leave me if she found out I'd spent the price of an entire MK on a set of buttons  keys  "caps" (even though they don't have caps—but sure, I'll pretend they do, along with everyone else).
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Offline kmba

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 27 June 2017, 22:16:48 »
It's not deceptive. The sale is for 20 or so individual kits, broken down as such to allow exhaustive coverage and options. They can't possibly list the price of each one on the front page. Nor would it make sense to list the price of alphas + mods + numpad because that isn't the combination that everyone is buying. Some people are only buying novelties or a random kit to complete their existing set. Others are buying for olkb coverage, or opting for more expensive orange alphas. In the end MD decides to show the price for the estimated most popular single kit, the standard alphas.

And language isn't static. It's fluid and changes with time. We're in 2017 my friend, not 1960.
keyboards.

Offline dodgeyhack

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 28 June 2017, 00:26:59 »

As a technical writer, I just find the semantics interesting.

A cap, in this sense, is "...something that serves as a cover or protection, especially for a tip, knob, or end." So calling them "caps" implies that they're switch covers, the way the stem in a two-piece IBM key is covered by a (correctly named) cap.

But when people discuss these sets, they're not focused on covering switches; they're focused on discrete objects that are often of great creativity and beauty. It seems to me that insisting on calling them "caps" trivializes them, as though they had no significance other than as switch covers. It'd be like referring to a fine tapestry as a "wall covering".

Finally, I've participated in countless online communities since the Internet began—and when it comes to detail, the KB community is by far the pickiest most discerning (LOL) I've seen. Except, for some reason, with this one thing.

Does "button" sound too old-fashioned? But we spend lots of time discussing vintage stuff, and many key sets—like the SAs we're discussing here—are deliberately retro-looking. So it doesn't seem like there'd be a special hangup about using a term that was historically accurate.

I can't think of any other reason for the continued misuse, anyway. It's a mystery.

I don't think button is the correct terminology here because keycaps (or whatever) are a component of a button but do not serve the purpose of a button by themselves. It's like calling a monitor a computer.

Offline chuckdee

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 28 June 2017, 08:30:46 »

As a technical writer, I just find the semantics interesting.

A cap, in this sense, is "...something that serves as a cover or protection, especially for a tip, knob, or end." So calling them "caps" implies that they're switch covers, the way the stem in a two-piece IBM key is covered by a (correctly named) cap.

But when people discuss these sets, they're not focused on covering switches; they're focused on discrete objects that are often of great creativity and beauty. It seems to me that insisting on calling them "caps" trivializes them, as though they had no significance other than as switch covers. It'd be like referring to a fine tapestry as a "wall covering".

Finally, I've participated in countless online communities since the Internet began—and when it comes to detail, the KB community is by far the pickiest most discerning (LOL) I've seen. Except, for some reason, with this one thing.

Does "button" sound too old-fashioned? But we spend lots of time discussing vintage stuff, and many key sets—like the SAs we're discussing here—are deliberately retro-looking. So it doesn't seem like there'd be a special hangup about using a term that was historically accurate.

I can't think of any other reason for the continued misuse, anyway. It's a mystery.

I don't think button is the correct terminology here because keycaps (or whatever) are a component of a button but do not serve the purpose of a button by themselves. It's like calling a monitor a computer.

I was actually just thinking the same thing.  And it's not just about getting people at GH and other enthusiast sites to change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keycap

Offline TheExcitedRobot

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 01 July 2017, 14:55:10 »
I'm also really curious: Is there something about SA sets that actually makes them particularly expensive to make? Or is it just prestige pricing, where people have been conditioned to expect them to cost more?


Your cost was ~$100? SA keycaps are pricey, but similar in price to other high quality double-shot key caps (GMK Cherry profile is ~ $135). A good comparison for prestige pricing is the cost of a MaxKey SA set. Same profile, but produced in China with more limited customization options. A MaxKey set seems to be $85-$100 for slightly more coverage. It's surprising how close MaxKey and SP prices are. SP might have some prestige pricing, and MaxKey might be charging more because they can, but manufacturing cost is likely the challenge.

The expensive part is the labor costs to setup and monitor machines that produce a small quantity of key caps. Every key requires different molds and it takes time to switch to out each mold. After every switch, the machine must be watched to verify good parts are produced. At the moment, group buys are not big enough to warrant separate machines for every key and SP has made it clear that they do not plan to change their manufacturing capabilities anytime soon. In addition, SP and GMK produce these parts in the United States and Germany respectively. Labor costs for them are much higher than key caps produced in China or other countries.

Besides labor costs, money goes towards producing custom colors, custom molds, and the capital costs to keep everything running. The actual cost for plastic is likely a few dollars, but everything else is pricey.

Key cap making is an expensive business. 


Offline ander

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 02:14:38 »
I don't think button is the correct terminology here because keycaps (or whatever) are a component of a button but do not serve the purpose of a button by themselves...

In English, "button" can refer to an entire switch mechanism, including the part you press, or to only the part you press:

Quote from: Random House Unabridged Dictionary
button [4.] any small knob or disk pressed to activate an electric circuit, release a spring, or otherwise operate or open a machine, small door, toy, etc.

And language is so tricky, you can even go the other way. A doorbell has a button, but people often say "press the doorbell", thus attributing the entire device's function to a single part that neither conducts power nor produces sound.  :?)

Computer documentation has always referred to pressing "keys"; but when referring to parts, the industry was always quite clear that a keyboard "button" was what you pressed to activate a switch. But because it's a specialized hardware term, rather than an instructional one, it's hard to find historical references to keyboard "buttons". Before the MK revival, few users had any interest in, or reason to refer to, keyboard parts. To consumers, keyboards were always complete items—not the artistic, customizable, specialized things they are now.

Semantically, a "cap" is something that covers something. That's what defines it. With rare exceptions (e.g. the ones with built-in can holders and straws), a "cap" is something you wear to cover your head. Like keyboard buttons, wearable caps come in many different styles, and can be quite artistic. But as far as how they work, they're head covers.

So if you refer to the parts over keyboard switches as "caps", you're describing them as switch covers. But they're not just switch covers, are they?:

• They function by being physically moved.

• They have discrete operational characteristics (stiffness, travel length, smoothness, tactility, clickiness, sound).

• They have legends that indicate specific functions, transcending mere design.

• The material they're made of, and their shapes, affect how they feel when you operate them.

• They can be illuminated.

...and so on. They're much more than "caps"! (Hmm, I'm getting déjà vu here, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself... When you get to my age, you can never be sure.)

A "cap's" other defining characteristic is that it (typically) provides some kind of protection for what it covers. (Wearable caps protect people's eyes and the tops of their heads from the sun; the cap on a pickup truck protects what it's carrying; a pen's cap keeps it from drying out; a cap on a soda bottle holds in the fizz, etc.)

But to my knowledge, with the exception of IBM's well-enclosed buckling springs, so-called keyboard "caps" don't keep pollutants from entering their switches. So they're un-"caplike" in that way, too. (And yes, I realize IBM's key caps don't necessarily protect their stems—but they don't have to protect the switches, do they? Besides, if IBM hadn't called them "caps", they would've had to call them something else.)

"Technical" is practically a synonym for "complex"—and the more complex something is, the more chances there are for ambiguities, misunderstandings and errors. So the guiding principle of tech terminology is: When a tech term's created, it should be done carefully, to avoid confusion with existing terms. And once that term's adopted and used, it should be used consistently. Only when a thing innately changes (for example, when IBM created two-part buttons, and needed two new terms for those parts) is there a good reason to start calling it something else.

Anyway, I'm just speaking from my 40-plus-year experience as a tech writer here (and because I like to type, LOL). I see "cap" now, and I chuckle. It's just another case of the human "herding" instinct—how everyone can flip over to thinking or doing something not because it's right, but because a critical mass of agreement was reached. Our imitative, tribal nature has enabled us to survive for millennia, so it can't be all bad, even when it leads us to use incorrect names for stuff.  :?)  (Unfortunately, it can also do things like putting clueless, dangerous buffoons into positions of great public responsibility for which they have no experience, qualifications, aptitude—or even true interest, other than the opportunities it gives them to draw attention to themselves... But I digress.)


...I was actually just thinking the same thing.  And it's not just about getting people at GH and other enthusiast sites to change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keycap

What?! How could a user-managed, user-edited online database possibly be wrong about anything?? Colour me shocked!! :?D
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Offline chuckdee

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 09:24:38 »

...I was actually just thinking the same thing.  And it's not just about getting people at GH and other enthusiast sites to change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keycap

What?! How could a user-managed, user-edited online database possibly be wrong about anything?? Colour me shocked!! :?D

It seems that in your haste to be witty, you missed the point.  You might read it again to see where you went wrong.

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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 14:00:29 »
Also, I'd had coffee. None of this is really that important, but when you're caffeinated, it has to go somewhere, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 July 2017, 14:02:34 by ander »
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Re: Massdrop x T0mb3ry SA Carbon custom [button] set
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 07 July 2017, 14:25:29 »
Hey, tomorrow's my birthday! Just thought I'd mention that in case any of you young guys with limitless disposable KB income would like to send some of these great-looking SA buttons caps my way. (See, I'm getting with it!)
We are not chasing wildly after beauty with fear at our backs. – Natalie Goldberg