[GB] TGR x MXF Koala - 24-Hour Raffle opens 2/25/2022

[elvenmonster]

Heck, I even paid for the remake out of my pocket when the manufacturer accidentally engraved all the tops with Max’s signature. What did I gain from this? Probably some publicity from Max’s streaming and a bunch of perfectly working boards with his name engraved, that I have no use for.

Really pains to hear this and I totally sympathize. Will not claim to know anything about the internal processes but is accounting for such issues is the reason for the price tag? I feel the manufacturer should be held accountable for this though and not you or Maxf.

Another reason why I believe that engravings are the least appealing customization options, not just for the consumer now but sounds like also for the runners.

No manu would like to do only a few boards, and each with different logo engravings. Plus there's no plan to mass produce this. It's more of a favor when they agree to do so for you, and I don't it's right to make them pay. We also made 2 sets per commission unit, in case of any issues with the finishing.

How is this very different from manufacturers engraving different serial numbers on their keyboards? Sure maybe numbers are an easier thing to engrave I guess, but sounds like a similar issue. Also engraving is only on the top piece right? The tops seems to be a fairly standard design, nothing like an Andromeda or anything. You can always make extra tops without engravings and sell that extra stock to produce value out of it. That being not your style is your call and it seems like the customer is paying for that with the $1500 price tag. Again, I am not against the high pricing but what is being offered seems severely limited.

If you are making no money out of this and it still costs so high while also leaving you with a ton of extra units that will remain unused, from the outside it just looks like the processes involved are very inefficient and wasteful, and it is this what the customers are actually paying for. I would not mistake it for higher quality.

Again, I say all this only because it was made public as a raffle, and is not a private run.

[Hugs94]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

[yuktsi]

Heck, I even paid for the remake out of my pocket when the manufacturer accidentally engraved all the tops with Max’s signature. What did I gain from this? Probably some publicity from Max’s streaming and a bunch of perfectly working boards with his name engraved, that I have no use for.

Really pains to hear this and I totally sympathize. Will not claim to know anything about the internal processes but is accounting for such issues is the reason for the price tag? I feel the manufacturer should be held accountable for this though and not you or Maxf.

Another reason why I believe that engravings are the least appealing customization options, not just for the consumer now but sounds like also for the runners.

No manu would like to do only a few boards, and each with different logo engravings. Plus there's no plan to mass produce this. It's more of a favor when they agree to do so for you, and I don't it's right to make them pay. We also made 2 sets per commission unit, in case of any issues with the finishing.

How is this very different from manufacturers engraving different serial numbers on their keyboards? Sure maybe numbers are an easier thing to engrave I guess, but sounds like a similar issue. Also engraving is only on the top piece right? The tops seems to be a fairly standard design, nothing like an Andromeda or anything. You can always make extra tops without engravings and sell that extra stock to produce value out of it. That being not your style is your call and it seems like the customer is paying for that with the $1500 price tag. Again, I am not against the high pricing but what is being offered seems severely limited.

If you are making no money out of this and it still costs so high while also leaving you with a ton of extra units that will remain unused, from the outside it just looks like the processes involved are very inefficient and wasteful, and it is this what the customers are actually paying for. I would not mistake it for higher quality.

Again, I say all this only because it was made public as a raffle, and is not a private run.

You might be right. If this is board with serial number, we could easily make some extras. We could even sell the light flawed one as B-stock. I personally done mind having a tiny white dot on my board. But if this has something very personal to you engraved, I don’t think you would want anyone else to have it.


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[Zeelobby]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

I mean. People are allowed to comment on stuff. It's literally what a forum is for.

That said, the simplicity of the design just seems high for the price, especially with color limitations. But I'm sure 20 people will jump on board. Personally I'm excited to see what yuktsi drops next, rather than jumping on someone else's dream TGR commission for a high price.

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[elvenmonster]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

Your comment reads like “Why is there a comments section on Geekhack?”. This is a community where IC/GB attempts get scrutinized by streamers and other community members all the time. Why should some GBs be exempt from criticism while others get newspaper’d and spooned every week publicly? The moment something is made public, it is subject to opinions, no matter how biased they are and I am sure TGR and Maxf completely expected that before going public. Were they averse to people commenting, would have stayed private.

[yuktsi]

And I do get a cut of the profit from, a reasonably good cut like what Max has mentioned. Just that with the little no. of units involved and the amount risk/work, I don’t agree with people saying that this is a cash grab.


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[Hugs94]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

Your comment reads like “Why is there a comments section on Geekhack?”. This is a community where IC/GB attempts get scrutinized by streamers and other community members all the time. Why should some GBs be exempt from criticism while others get newspaper’d and spooned every week publicly? The moment something is made public, it is subject to opinions, no matter how biased they are and I am sure TGR and Maxf completely expected that before going public. Were they averse to people commenting, would have stayed private.

I'm down for meming the post. 1 liners from people here and there. But it feels like there are people who are way to into it.
Like people who really want this board but with [a choice in colors, choice in material finishes] with some internalized justification that "if I can get those things, than I can justify this purchase". And at that point I think those people are lost.

[Sturmtiger]

Who knew a community built around hype and exclusivity would come to this, I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you.

Otherwise, good luck with the board and hope whoever gets it enjoys it!

[yuktsi]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

I mean. People are allowed to comment on stuff. It's literally what a forum is for.

That said, the simplicity of the design just seems high for the price, especially with color limitations. But I'm sure 20 people will jump on board. Personally I'm excited to see what yuktsi drops next, rather than jumping on someone else's dream TGR commission for a high price.

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You are right. I made those boards because they don’t exist in the way I like them to be. But I’ve been in this hobby for so long and I think I have gotten most of the boards I want. I not sure what coming next might excite you. Maybe a 40% with feet?


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[pr0ximity]

Maybe a 40% with feet?

Please

more feet

please

👣

[Puddsy]

And I do get a cut of the profit from, a reasonably good cut like what Max has mentioned. Just that with the little no. of units involved and the amount risk/work, I don’t agree with people saying that this is a cash grab.

if it was a cash grab it would have been a 15 unit vickrey.

i know better than to further engage with this thread, but i have a few small thoughts.

a) people arbitrarily choose what they want to be mad at. not just in this hobby but generally. i think the sense that everyone should own an "endgame" board is one that is full of entitlement. buy what you can afford, and enjoy keyboards within your budget. there has never been a better time to buy a low end, or ESPECIALLY a mid range keyboard. there are so many good options in the 350-500 range, i wish we had this much selection when i got into keyboards.

aa) i think a lot of new members of the hobby feel entitled to "endgame" boards like this. i understand that animosity and desire to have something you want, but honestly, if you just want it for clout, nobody cares. people care that i own an alice, but that's because i have clout for different reasons (some good, some bad), not because i own that board. buy things because YOU want them. not because you want other people to want them.

ab) i think getting upset about this being another koala copy is kind of shortsighted. if you get upset about one you should get upset about them all. but i see some of the same people ****ting on this for being a koala copy praising other boards that are also koala copies. it's not like we can go back to korellas or eungsam and get their stamp of approval for every board that uses their designs.

b) is this board too expensive? i say sure, but i know there are people who will pay for this. there are hundreds of people who are willing to shell out for keycult and bauer commissions. my personal stance is that anything over 750 is too much for any keyboard, but i've paid more than that for non-keyboard hobby items in the past, so i guess it just depends on what one is willing to spend. like has been mentioned a few times in this thread, there have been $1500 boards before, and there will be more after this. don't buy something if you don't want it/can't afford it.

ba) before anyone asks the most i've ever paid for a keyboard was ~730 for my little z, not including what i paid lightning to build it. my mira is not far behind, i paid 725 to buy it back from a friend who rebuilt it and asked me to reimburse him for the parts.

bb) saying that this is the logical end product of a community built around hype is kinda shortsighted as well, and a good signifier that you haven't been around that long. some of us remember the nasby koalas way back in the day, which also GB'd at 1500 (in like 2014 i think!). and i think they sold more units than are being offered here, AND those were clones made from stolen files. i reiterate that this is nothing new.

c) sam is in my top three of most important people in the keyboard community, ever. not just in terms of keyboard design, but also in terms of growing the community and making it a better place. he has given us so much and has reaped so few of the benefits of what he has done for the rest of us. i think if he wants to get paid he should get his money. like he mentions, he gets no money when someone sells a jane on MM for 6k after he sold his at GB For 1/10th that price. i know what i paid for my alice, and i know how much money i've been offered for it. let the man do what he wants. he's earned it more than any of us.

in closing, do i think people are right to be upset about this? not really. i think if this is your first time seeing something like this it can be jarring, but honestly to those of us who have been around for a while it's nothing new. i think if you're genuinely upset about a product like this existing, then you really need to consider your feelings about keyboards. do i think this board has some problems? sure, but mostly i'd just want more color choices and a custom engraving at that price, but i don't think i'll be buying so what does my opinion really matter?

[Zeelobby]

I imagine that people who are complaining about price are thinking something like this:
"Wahhh, my favorite designer is making a keyboard that doesn't appeal to me for [insert reason here]. I need to complain about it instead of just looking for the next thing that appeals to me"

Seriously. What is going on through your minds. If its price too high, just move on. The product isn't for you. The moment you had an issue with something about the board that doesn't suit your needs, the product is not for you. I cannot imagine you have actually spent your time even getting the effort to type a response to it.

I mean. People are allowed to comment on stuff. It's literally what a forum is for.

That said, the simplicity of the design just seems high for the price, especially with color limitations. But I'm sure 20 people will jump on board. Personally I'm excited to see what yuktsi drops next, rather than jumping on someone else's dream TGR commission for a high price.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

You are right. I made those boards because they don’t exist in the way I like them to be. But I’ve been in this hobby for so long and I think I have gotten most of the boards I want. I not sure what coming next might excite you. Maybe a 40% with feet?


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Lol. Only if it's got toblerone foot.

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[rmendis]

Good luck with the sale and good luck to the raffle entrants!

[GaNeBaL]

glws

[Dinerenblanc]

How many years would this take to deliver and what do you think bespoke means?

[EnjoyMyInSec]

A bit sad to see that some drama happened because the post was rushed and was missing information.
While I'm at it, isn't the shipping ETA a must in order for a GB to be approved ?

[maxf]

Biggest mistake I made was not drawing more of a concise description for this. It really is a group commission, not a group buy.  To better explain, Yuktsi and I were chatting one day about the idea of an artisan commission process transferred to the keyboard.  Much of this angle comes from that idea.  With that:

I limit options (colors in this instance), set a standard design, and then allow for some custom elements (engraving was what I thought made this the most unique and special for the customer).

I won't draw comparisons to all other commission services that are out there, but if you research you'll find the price lower here than anywhere else.  As it should be since it's limiting options to help with QC/management and time/effort.  All that said - I'm still really excited to bring this to some more friends this time around. I might do a small raffle for some supporters in Discord/Stream perhaps and also might make another run more public in the future. 

Thanks for chiming in as well, Yuktsi.  You hit the nail on the head when you assumed my naming this was an homage to the OTD Koala.  I didn't mean to offend anyone with this.  That side profile has been worked and reworked so many times at this point that it feels like free domain.

I submitted this post the same time I made my Reddit thread (which has already been deleted), and I left this post open a bit longer because there was some good discussion going back and forth that I found interesting.  Much more constructive than on Reddit, and I'm sincerely thankful for that.

See my post above for a few notes I had, and a change with how I'm moving forward with this sale this time around.  I'll be putting some thought into how I want to return to this and bring it to more customers in the future.  Discord will remain a good place for more frequent updates as that time comes.  To those excited about this project, I'll do my utmost to bring it to more people in time.

Thanks for your support. (Locking this thread for now.)

[HoffmanMyster]

While I'm at it, isn't the shipping ETA a must in order for a GB to be approved ?

Yes. In this case, I mistakenly approved without an ETA listed, and followed up with maxf via PM to add one. This has not happened yet, despite active posting in the thread.

I submitted this post the same time I made my Reddit thread (which has already been deleted), and I left this post open a bit longer because there was some good discussion going back and forth that I found interesting.  Much more constructive than on Reddit, and I'm sincerely thankful for that.

See my post above for a few notes I had, and a change with how I'm moving forward with this sale this time around.  I'll be putting some thought into how I want to return to this and bring it to more customers in the future.  Discord will remain a good place for more frequent updates as that time comes.  To those excited about this project, I'll do my utmost to bring it to more people in time.

Thanks for your support. (Locking this thread for now.)

Please update the OP with an estimated fulfillment date, per my request yesterday via PM.

I had also asked about delivery delays associated with the Jane CE and some additional clarification regarding manufacturer and fulfillment details for this buy. Please comment here about this as well.

Lastly, a locked Group Buy thread signifies that the buy is complete and all units are shipped. As that is not the case, I have unlocked the thread. As you know, all updates must be posted here in addition to your Discord server, and anyone (buyer or not) can comment on the board and buy progress.

[RachaXD]

If more thought had been put into marketing this, it would've been received differently by the community.
- Stating GB but should've said it was more like group commission. This is extremely off-putting when you perceive it as a GB but most would likely not bat an eye if it was marketed as a group commission
- Using "bespoke" as a buzzword when it's not truly bespoke. Only offering a custom engraving and a complementary building service doesn't make it bespoke unfortunately. People are most likely expecting a keyboard fully tailored to their specifications in regard to also color, weight material, WK/WKL, plate options (how is there only an alu plate as an option?). An engving is cool and all but still I guess you could explain how that drives up price?
- Not going more in-depth in the intentions of doing this project like with what yuktsi was saying earlier in the thread for those that want to know the thought behind the design since you've got the Koala name on there

While I get that this was intended for the absolute enthusiasts that will pay for the board and the experience, posting on Reddit where the community is now majorly shifting to mid-range prices and below will definitely have negative backlash. If people over there are complaining about GMK all day long this did not help lol.

Suggestions for next time:
- Make friends that would've told you that posting these would have negative feedback. I'm not surprised at all that this was received badly. One of the biggest things I've noticed about the hobby on the higher-end side is that there's an echo chamber where people will simp all day long because you're homies and won't give constructive criticism because they're scared you'll get mad. Positive vibes are great but there's a point where that shifts to toxic positivity. If you don't care, then that's okay and just offer this to those you know who would've been all for it
- Marketing is extremely important and you gotta understand your audience

For everyone saying "if you don't like the price just move on", that's fine but I think as a community we should be trying our best to to keep designers, GB runners, and vendors honest. If this was a cash grab, as a community we should definitely call that out and not let people be taken advantage of because of hype, brand, etc.

[clik_clak]

the margin overall here is alot less

are you privy to this information or are you just guessing

a person who has vested interest

how do i have a vested interest in this board that i cannot afford

You can't afford it? You own it
Puddsy reading comprehension

(Attachment Link)

I don't really post on Geekhack that much as I find very little productive conversation happens here anymore but just to clarify I sold Puddsy my first prototype at a heavy, heavy discount as he's a friend of mine. There's no incentive for him to support what I do otherwise.

If you want to critique my use of referencing design language that I like/pass conjecture about the assumed costs of my project you're more than welcome to do it in my groupbuy thread - this post seems like a poor outlet for it. That said I'm excited to see this project come to fruition even if I can't afford to drop this kinda coin on keyboards myself.

I would think offering someone a heavy discount on your projects is incentive enough for anyone to give you a glowing review, regardless of the product.

Kind of a silly thing to say.

I should specify - he has no financial incentive to support my product as I thought was originally implied. He used it at a meetup and offered to buy it.

I guess I think it's a little disingenuous that a subsection of this hobby is offended that newer users are questioning the value and production costs of a project because of who it's produced by while it's readily encouraged for other 'similar' projects. Granted I'm of the opinion that if you don't like the cost of something based on what it offers, you simply skip it.

Perhaps if Lil took that energy and put it into making a large scale buy that didn't get cancelled due to lack of interest they wouldn't have so many soft feelings about what I'm doing or who supports me and would instead utilize this groupbuy thread to support its makers/talk about its manufacturing cost in a productive way.

I don't know what to tell you...If you don't understand that offering someone a deep discount on buying your product as financial incentive, you need to take a lesson in economics. That is the definition of a direct financial incentive. You sold it to him at a discounted price, regardless of him liking it or not.

You can try to spin it anyway you want, but again, your argument is just silly.

[Aerysten]

the margin overall here is alot less

are you privy to this information or are you just guessing

a person who has vested interest

how do i have a vested interest in this board that i cannot afford

You can't afford it? You own it
Puddsy reading comprehension

(Attachment Link)

I don't really post on Geekhack that much as I find very little productive conversation happens here anymore but just to clarify I sold Puddsy my first prototype at a heavy, heavy discount as he's a friend of mine. There's no incentive for him to support what I do otherwise.

If you want to critique my use of referencing design language that I like/pass conjecture about the assumed costs of my project you're more than welcome to do it in my groupbuy thread - this post seems like a poor outlet for it. That said I'm excited to see this project come to fruition even if I can't afford to drop this kinda coin on keyboards myself.

I would think offering someone a heavy discount on your projects is incentive enough for anyone to give you a glowing review, regardless of the product.

Kind of a silly thing to say.

I should specify - he has no financial incentive to support my product as I thought was originally implied. He used it at a meetup and offered to buy it.

I guess I think it's a little disingenuous that a subsection of this hobby is offended that newer users are questioning the value and production costs of a project because of who it's produced by while it's readily encouraged for other 'similar' projects. Granted I'm of the opinion that if you don't like the cost of something based on what it offers, you simply skip it.

Perhaps if Lil took that energy and put it into making a large scale buy that didn't get cancelled due to lack of interest they wouldn't have so many soft feelings about what I'm doing or who supports me and would instead utilize this groupbuy thread to support its makers/talk about its manufacturing cost in a productive way.

I don't know what to tell you...If you don't understand that offering someone a deep discount on buying your product as financial incentive, you need to take a lesson in economics. That is the definition of a direct financial incentive. You sold it to him at a discounted price, regardless of him liking it or not.

You can try to spin it anyway you want, but again, your argument is just silly.

Why is this still being talked about on a thread about a totally different board? Take it private or leave it be.

Anyways, GLWS! Not for me in terms of pricing right now (moving is a pain), but I hope everyone who gets one enjoys.

[cruelworld]

I don't know what to tell you...If you don't understand that offering someone a deep discount on buying your product as financial incentive, you need to take a lesson in economics. That is the definition of a direct financial incentive. You sold it to him at a discounted price, regardless of him liking it or not.

You can try to spin it anyway you want, but again, your argument is just silly.

Again there was no compensation for Puddys' glowing review - if there was I certainly didn't get my moneys worth for such a paltry three word endorsement.

As previously stated if you find me selling a friend a prototype at a discount to be such a grand transgression worthy of hyper-fixating on you're more than welcome to hit me up in my own groupbuy listing as I'm pretty sure the makers of this post as well as moderation are as uninterested in this needlessly pedantic conversation as I am. This keyboard is cool, your time is better spent giving it the praise it deserves rather than trying to argue with me over the imagined marketing tactics of a groupbuy that's already ran.

[DubbTom]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

[Tyson]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

[stolenweapon]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

I have no skin in the game. Just my 2 cents - I personally think the maker can decide how much to price it, and if you don't want it don't buy it. No one is forced to buy it, and there are many other great boards out there. No one bats an eye when OTDs go for thousands, nor KC auctions that go for way more than this, so why should this matter/be an exception? I would much rather have the value accrue to the designer/maker than the raffle winner anyways:

1. The designer/maker should deserve what the board is "worth" (in the market, although that is hard to determine)
2. It would deter people from entering the raffle simply to resell the board. Interestingly enough, I would argue that this phenomenon may, over time, lower the price of the board and, thus, make it more accessible

[Zeelobby]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

I have no skin in the game. Just my 2 cents - I personally think the maker can decide how much to price it, and if you don't want it don't buy it. No one is forced to buy it, and there are many other great boards out there. No one bats an eye when OTDs go for thousands, nor KC auctions that go for way more than this, so why should this matter/be an exception? I would much rather have the value accrue to the designer/maker than the raffle winner anyways:

1. The designer/maker should deserve what the board is "worth" (in the market, although that is hard to determine)
2. It would deter people from entering the raffle simply to resell the board. Interestingly enough, I would argue that this phenomenon may, over time, lower the price of the board and, thus, make it more accessible

I mean let's not lie here. Even with OTD and KC people bat eyes. The only people who seem oblivious tend to be clout and money chasers. There's a fair segment of the community that enjoys reasonably priced premium boards over branding. Not saying that's what's happening here but this whole concept that people sell things for buttloads of money so everything should be priced whatever is a weak argument.

You can totally overprice your stuff, and you can get called out for it. Just the way it works.

I do agree that designers deserve more. But then do private commissions and vickrey stuff. Both are pretty accepted methods of generating cash. Pseudo-bespoke is a weird way, probably why people are not sure what to make of it.

Personally id love a market place that gives a percentage of profit off each resale back to the designer. But no one on earth does that. Heh

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[Vigrith]

Definitely not a cash grab but the price is too outrageous for me to consider partaking - it is what it is though, and if there's a singular person I'd still back up (albeit not necessarily with my money in this particular case) regardless of circumstance it's Yuktsi/TGR. It's not Vikrey, that's good enough for me.

[stolenweapon]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

I have no skin in the game. Just my 2 cents - I personally think the maker can decide how much to price it, and if you don't want it don't buy it. No one is forced to buy it, and there are many other great boards out there. No one bats an eye when OTDs go for thousands, nor KC auctions that go for way more than this, so why should this matter/be an exception? I would much rather have the value accrue to the designer/maker than the raffle winner anyways:

1. The designer/maker should deserve what the board is "worth" (in the market, although that is hard to determine)
2. It would deter people from entering the raffle simply to resell the board. Interestingly enough, I would argue that this phenomenon may, over time, lower the price of the board and, thus, make it more accessible

I mean let's not lie here. Even with OTD and KC people bat eyes. The only people who seem oblivious tend to be clout and money chasers. There's a fair segment of the community that enjoys reasonably priced premium boards over branding. Not saying that's what's happening here but this whole concept that people sell things for buttloads of money so everything should be priced whatever is a weak argument.

You can totally overprice your stuff, and you can get called out for it. Just the way it works.

I do agree that designers deserve more. But then do private commissions and vickrey stuff. Both are pretty accepted methods of generating cash. Pseudo-bespoke is a weird way, probably why people are not sure what to make of it.

Personally id love a market place that gives a percentage of profit off each resale back to the designer. But no one on earth does that. Heh

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This just makes no sense. How do you explain luxury brands, luxury cars, luxury watches, etc. How do you quantify what is "reasonably priced"? At what point is the threshold considered "cheap" or "expensive?" The only metric we have is what someone is willing to pay for it, and every other argument isn't provable and is just purely narrative-driven. How can you call something is expensive without it even being raffled? Because if there are 20 boards, and there are more than 20 entrants, then it is clearly at least "fairly" priced.

[Zeelobby]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

I have no skin in the game. Just my 2 cents - I personally think the maker can decide how much to price it, and if you don't want it don't buy it. No one is forced to buy it, and there are many other great boards out there. No one bats an eye when OTDs go for thousands, nor KC auctions that go for way more than this, so why should this matter/be an exception? I would much rather have the value accrue to the designer/maker than the raffle winner anyways:

1. The designer/maker should deserve what the board is "worth" (in the market, although that is hard to determine)
2. It would deter people from entering the raffle simply to resell the board. Interestingly enough, I would argue that this phenomenon may, over time, lower the price of the board and, thus, make it more accessible

I mean let's not lie here. Even with OTD and KC people bat eyes. The only people who seem oblivious tend to be clout and money chasers. There's a fair segment of the community that enjoys reasonably priced premium boards over branding. Not saying that's what's happening here but this whole concept that people sell things for buttloads of money so everything should be priced whatever is a weak argument.

You can totally overprice your stuff, and you can get called out for it. Just the way it works.

I do agree that designers deserve more. But then do private commissions and vickrey stuff. Both are pretty accepted methods of generating cash. Pseudo-bespoke is a weird way, probably why people are not sure what to make of it.

Personally id love a market place that gives a percentage of profit off each resale back to the designer. But no one on earth does that. Heh

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This just makes no sense. How do you explain luxury brands, luxury cars, luxury watches, etc. How do you quantify what is "reasonably priced"? At what point is the threshold considered "cheap" or "expensive?" The only metric we have is what someone is willing to pay for it, and every other argument isn't provable and is just purely narrative-driven. How can you call something is expensive without it even being raffled? Because if there are 20 boards, and there are more than 20 entrants, then it is clearly at least "fairly" priced.

I mean we know how much these cost. And know how much has been previously charged for honestly a more complex design. It'd be like Toyota selling supras for $20K and then dropping a Corolla for $50K. So it just seems off for the brand. This isn't Mercedes vs Kia. There is a baseline for value. Even amongst luxury goods.

I mean I have no doubt they'll sell 20. And honestly it's probably close to what they'd cost to manufacture and the services provided. I was just pointing out that pointing to aftermarket prices as justification is silly, especially OTD (no longer produced) and KC (basically no longer produced, lol, and falling in value).

In the end it's just like my opinion man. I just understand why people would make those complaints. And I can't just outright say they're wrong because people pay crazy prices for exclusivity.

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[elvenmonster]

- Make friends that would've told you that posting these would have negative feedback. I'm not surprised at all that this was received badly. One of the biggest things I've noticed about the hobby on the higher-end side is that there's an echo chamber where people will simp all day long because you're homies and won't give constructive criticism because they're scared you'll get mad. Positive vibes are great but there's a point where that shifts to toxic positivity. If you don't care, then that's okay and just offer this to those you know who would've been all for it

This is very well put. I think a lot of people 'at the top' of the influencing hierarchy (whatever what means) do not have a lot of people speaking to them with brutal honestly.

As you mentioned, it is very unsurprising that the reddit post as well has this geekhack post has received an overall negative reaction, and Maxf and Yuktsi could probably use this as an opportunity to learn why and question themselves whether it was just the marketing, or is there anything obviously wrong with the product offerings which they perhaps cannot see because of the bubble they've surrounded themselves with.

[DukeEsquire]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

There is a big difference between in-stock sale and GB with indeterminate delivery date.

If they sold 20 of these as in-stock for $1500, the reaction would be very different.

[Zeelobby]

If these were being flipped on mechmarket for $1500 people wouldn't hesitate to buy and the comments would be filled with "nice price glws". Do I think the price is high for a groupbuy? Yes. But for a watered down TGR commission I think the price is more than fair. At the end of the day high prices for hyped keyboards is what this hobby has become and I'd much rather pay the premium to a reputable designer than someone just looking to make a quick buck.

Honestly the community would have gone crazy if Max and Sam had these made already and just listed them on r/mm for $1500. People would see a TGR board and however many were made would have instantly sold out. Nobody that's in the hobby and knows the value of the boards would have even questioned it. lol Just make a sale post and have them all listed individually. Stolenweapon does that all the time with all of his crazy high end stuff anyways. One day I hope I have the kind of money that dude has. Kudos to whatever he does for a living LOL

There is a big difference between in-stock sale and GB with indeterminate delivery date.

If they sold 20 of these as in-stock for $1500, the reaction would be very different.

I'd buy 2!

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[singabore]

L

[___LUNK]

Does this even come with an NFT for $1500

[LMarci]

I don't understand people defending this price point. This is not okay. Your replies on the mechmarket reddit made this whole thing even more suspicious. Pass.

[Whale_algorithm]

What did I gain from this? Probably some publicity from Max’s streaming and a bunch of perfectly working boards with his name engraved, that I have no use for.

This may be a weird question but would you sell the wrongly engraved forms at a steep discount to get them off your hands? I may be willing to buy one depending on price and how they look

[Zeelobby]

What did I gain from this? Probably some publicity from Max’s streaming and a bunch of perfectly working boards with his name engraved, that I have no use for.

This may be a weird question but would you sell the wrongly engraved forms at a steep discount to get them off your hands? I may be willing to buy one depending on price and how they look

Haha. If price was reasonable I'd grab one. The design definitely looks nice, a classic callback. Always unfortunate when manu goes wrong and boards go to waste.

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[Tree_]

Lot of sooking in this thread from people who never intended on entering the raffle, .

If the board isn't for you, what are you doing here whinging about it?

[Zeelobby]

Lot of sooking in this thread from people who never intended on entering the raffle, .

If the board isn't for you, what are you doing here whinging about it?

I mean your question has been answered about 10 times already. It's a public forum. People are allowed to comment. That's kind of the point. Also feel like most people would be interested. Sharing concerns about price is nothing new.

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[Slayer77]

Lot of sooking in this thread from people who never intended on entering the raffle, .

If the board isn't for you, what are you doing here whinging about it?

That is the purpose of an interest check/group buy, for feedback.

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[Tree_]

Lot of sooking in this thread from people who never intended on entering the raffle, .

If the board isn't for you, what are you doing here whinging about it?

That is the purpose of an interest check/group buy, for feedback.

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If this was an Interest Check thread, I'd agree - But it isn't, it's no more than an advertisement for a product that's likely long been finalised.

[clik_clak]

While I'm at it, isn't the shipping ETA a must in order for a GB to be approved ?

Yes. In this case, I mistakenly approved without an ETA listed, and followed up with maxf via PM to add one. This has not happened yet, despite active posting in the thread.

I submitted this post the same time I made my Reddit thread (which has already been deleted), and I left this post open a bit longer because there was some good discussion going back and forth that I found interesting.  Much more constructive than on Reddit, and I'm sincerely thankful for that.

See my post above for a few notes I had, and a change with how I'm moving forward with this sale this time around.  I'll be putting some thought into how I want to return to this and bring it to more customers in the future.  Discord will remain a good place for more frequent updates as that time comes.  To those excited about this project, I'll do my utmost to bring it to more people in time.

Thanks for your support. (Locking this thread for now.)

Please update the OP with an estimated fulfillment date, per my request yesterday via PM.

I had also asked about delivery delays associated with the Jane CE and some additional clarification regarding manufacturer and fulfillment details for this buy. Please comment here about this as well.

Lastly, a locked Group Buy thread signifies that the buy is complete and all units are shipped. As that is not the case, I have unlocked the thread. As you know, all updates must be posted here in addition to your Discord server, and anyone (buyer or not) can comment on the board and buy progress.

None of this information was added to this thread...

I'm curious what the point of these rules you added if you aren't going to even enforce them.

[Zeelobby]

While I'm at it, isn't the shipping ETA a must in order for a GB to be approved ?

Yes. In this case, I mistakenly approved without an ETA listed, and followed up with maxf via PM to add one. This has not happened yet, despite active posting in the thread.

I submitted this post the same time I made my Reddit thread (which has already been deleted), and I left this post open a bit longer because there was some good discussion going back and forth that I found interesting.  Much more constructive than on Reddit, and I'm sincerely thankful for that.

See my post above for a few notes I had, and a change with how I'm moving forward with this sale this time around.  I'll be putting some thought into how I want to return to this and bring it to more customers in the future.  Discord will remain a good place for more frequent updates as that time comes.  To those excited about this project, I'll do my utmost to bring it to more people in time.

Thanks for your support. (Locking this thread for now.)

Please update the OP with an estimated fulfillment date, per my request yesterday via PM.

I had also asked about delivery delays associated with the Jane CE and some additional clarification regarding manufacturer and fulfillment details for this buy. Please comment here about this as well.

Lastly, a locked Group Buy thread signifies that the buy is complete and all units are shipped. As that is not the case, I have unlocked the thread. As you know, all updates must be posted here in addition to your Discord server, and anyone (buyer or not) can comment on the board and buy progress.

None of this information was added to this thread...

I'm curious what the point of these rules you added if you aren't going to even enforce them.

I mean the sales dead. At least in this current form. Think people just in here beating the horse.

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[superdoedoe]

What did I gain from this? Probably some publicity from Max’s streaming and a bunch of perfectly working boards with his name engraved, that I have no use for.

This may be a weird question but would you sell the wrongly engraved forms at a steep discount to get them off your hands? I may be willing to buy one depending on price and how they look

$1499 for you

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[phinix]

What a hell? $1500??!!
Its a piece of alu etc.
Frog is better than this for $300.

[Shunx]

What a hell? $1500??!!
Its a piece of alu etc.
Frog is better than this for $300.

Of course frog or other board could be better.. Somehow this GB is for robbing people who don't care about their money. ROFL

[phinix]

What a hell? $1500??!!
Its a piece of alu etc.
Frog is better than this for $300.

Of course frog or other board could be better.. Somehow this GB is for robbing people who don't care about their money. ROFL

True.. true...

[ninjadoc]

And I do get a cut of the profit from, a reasonably good cut like what Max has mentioned. Just that with the little no. of units involved and the amount risk/work, I don’t agree with people saying that this is a cash grab.

if it was a cash grab it would have been a 15 unit vickrey.

i know better than to further engage with this thread, but i have a few small thoughts.

a) people arbitrarily choose what they want to be mad at. not just in this hobby but generally. i think the sense that everyone should own an "endgame" board is one that is full of entitlement. buy what you can afford, and enjoy keyboards within your budget. there has never been a better time to buy a low end, or ESPECIALLY a mid range keyboard. there are so many good options in the 350-500 range, i wish we had this much selection when i got into keyboards.

aa) i think a lot of new members of the hobby feel entitled to "endgame" boards like this. i understand that animosity and desire to have something you want, but honestly, if you just want it for clout, nobody cares. people care that i own an alice, but that's because i have clout for different reasons (some good, some bad), not because i own that board. buy things because YOU want them. not because you want other people to want them.

ab) i think getting upset about this being another koala copy is kind of shortsighted. if you get upset about one you should get upset about them all. but i see some of the same people ****ting on this for being a koala copy praising other boards that are also koala copies. it's not like we can go back to korellas or eungsam and get their stamp of approval for every board that uses their designs.

b) is this board too expensive? i say sure, but i know there are people who will pay for this. there are hundreds of people who are willing to shell out for keycult and bauer commissions. my personal stance is that anything over 750 is too much for any keyboard, but i've paid more than that for non-keyboard hobby items in the past, so i guess it just depends on what one is willing to spend. like has been mentioned a few times in this thread, there have been $1500 boards before, and there will be more after this. don't buy something if you don't want it/can't afford it.

ba) before anyone asks the most i've ever paid for a keyboard was ~730 for my little z, not including what i paid lightning to build it. my mira is not far behind, i paid 725 to buy it back from a friend who rebuilt it and asked me to reimburse him for the parts.

bb) saying that this is the logical end product of a community built around hype is kinda shortsighted as well, and a good signifier that you haven't been around that long. some of us remember the nasby koalas way back in the day, which also GB'd at 1500 (in like 2014 i think!). and i think they sold more units than are being offered here, AND those were clones made from stolen files. i reiterate that this is nothing new.

c) sam is in my top three of most important people in the keyboard community, ever. not just in terms of keyboard design, but also in terms of growing the community and making it a better place. he has given us so much and has reaped so few of the benefits of what he has done for the rest of us. i think if he wants to get paid he should get his money. like he mentions, he gets no money when someone sells a jane on MM for 6k after he sold his at GB For 1/10th that price. i know what i paid for my alice, and i know how much money i've been offered for it. let the man do what he wants. he's earned it more than any of us.

in closing, do i think people are right to be upset about this? not really. i think if this is your first time seeing something like this it can be jarring, but honestly to those of us who have been around for a while it's nothing new. i think if you're genuinely upset about a product like this existing, then you really need to consider your feelings about keyboards. do i think this board has some problems? sure, but mostly i'd just want more color choices and a custom engraving at that price, but i don't think i'll be buying so what does my opinion really matter?

AH, Puddsy I must agree - we both know better than getting embroiled in such chatter. I have lots to say but I know better than going there. For what its worth I will say a little bit and run like h.... - check the cost of aluminum over the last two years, believe me it costs more per unit to make 20 boards than 200 boards