Author Topic: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?  (Read 587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rezkian

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« on: Sat, 07 May 2022, 12:26:48 »
I've been trying to look for one even in google photos to see if ever even existed. I haven't had much luck! If you've ever seen it, let me know. I feel like I'm looking for a ghost lmao :-[ I don't want to settle for an ANSI M13 II if an ISO layout does exist, that's all.

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 880
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 07 May 2022, 16:49:45 »
While I don't think I've seen one, there's no reason you couldn't take an ANSI M13 and bolt mod it to be ISO.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline Rezkian

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 07 May 2022, 20:34:05 »
While I don't think I've seen one, there's no reason you couldn't take an ANSI M13 and bolt mod it to be ISO.
Hi! Thanks for answering, and I'm really interested by this. I'm a little new, so I'm sorry for asking for more clarification. I tried to look up bolt modding, but there was little instruction on how to put an extra hole to put that extra key, and move around stuff for that big L-enter key? All I got essentially was " A bolt mod is simply the replacement of these plastic rivets with nuts and bolts."

Could you point me to the proper resources?

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 880
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 08 May 2022, 06:02:06 »
Search topic titles here for "bolt mod".

Here's one: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62226
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline sharktastica

  • Posts: 144
  • Location: Wales, UK
  • CompSci research student, IBMer, r/ModelM mod
    • Admiral Shark's Keyboards
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 08 May 2022, 09:58:57 »
I've been trying to look for one even in google photos to see if ever even existed. I haven't had much luck! If you've ever seen it, let me know. I feel like I'm looking for a ghost lmao :-[ I don't want to settle for an ANSI M13 II if an ISO layout does exist, that's all.

There was, P/N 82G3285 Canadian/French ISO M13.

Info: https://sharktastica.co.uk/kb?id=82G3285
Photos: https://sharktastica.co.uk/archive/view?id=6d77e6b0608384ad

Offline NathanA

  • Posts: 31
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 13 May 2022, 20:42:07 »
I tried to look up bolt modding, but there was little instruction on how to put an extra hole to put that extra key, and move around stuff for that big L-enter key? All I got essentially was " A bolt mod is simply the replacement of these plastic rivets with nuts and bolts."

Model Ms are designed in such a way that IBM didn't need to make different sets of top barrel plates or membrane sheets depending on what layout they were targeting a given keyboard for...when you're a world-wide conglomerate and you sell a bunch of SKUs into a bunch of international markets, it's nice for inventory management purposes to be able to use the exact same part to make multiple different variations of a keyboard.  Thus, you can add/remove/relocate stabilizers and flippers+springs if you tear apart the keyboard.  In an ANSI Model M, all of the sensing pads for the ISO keys that aren't present to the user are all there...they're just hidden.  So if you remove the stabilizer in that barrel and replace it with a spring+flipper, that newly-revealed key will indeed work.

The reason you are being told to "bolt mod" is because given the way that Model Ms are constructed, there is no way to do this kind of change to a Model M's layout non-destructively.  The inner keyboard assembly is not held together by easily-removable screws, but rather by (intended-to-be-)"permanent" plastic rivets.  Therefore the only way to gain access to put a flipper in a place where there currently isn't one is to drill off all of the rivets.  And after you've done that, it's not really feasible to re-rivet that "sandwich" back together.  So you are forced to do a so-called "bolt mod" (or "screw mod") in order to change the layout from ANSI to ISO.  It's unavoidable.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 May 2022, 20:47:04 by NathanA »

Offline suicidal_orange

  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 4574
  • Location: England
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 14 May 2022, 03:01:30 »
Thanks for the explanation Nathan - I have learned something today :)
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod

Offline Rezkian

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: Has there ever been an IBM M13 II in ISO Layout?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 16 May 2022, 00:03:29 »
I tried to look up bolt modding, but there was little instruction on how to put an extra hole to put that extra key, and move around stuff for that big L-enter key? All I got essentially was " A bolt mod is simply the replacement of these plastic rivets with nuts and bolts."

Model Ms are designed in such a way that IBM didn't need to make different sets of top barrel plates or membrane sheets depending on what layout they were targeting a given keyboard for...when you're a world-wide conglomerate and you sell a bunch of SKUs into a bunch of international markets, it's nice for inventory management purposes to be able to use the exact same part to make multiple different variations of a keyboard.  Thus, you can add/remove/relocate stabilizers and flippers+springs if you tear apart the keyboard.  In an ANSI Model M, all of the sensing pads for the ISO keys that aren't present to the user are all there...they're just hidden.  So if you remove the stabilizer in that barrel and replace it with a spring+flipper, that newly-revealed key will indeed work.

The reason you are being told to "bolt mod" is because given the way that Model Ms are constructed, there is no way to do this kind of change to a Model M's layout non-destructively.  The inner keyboard assembly is not held together by easily-removable screws, but rather by (intended-to-be-)"permanent" plastic rivets.  Therefore the only way to gain access to put a flipper in a place where there currently isn't one is to drill off all of the rivets.  And after you've done that, it's not really feasible to re-rivet that "sandwich" back together.  So you are forced to do a so-called "bolt mod" (or "screw mod") in order to change the layout from ANSI to ISO.  It's unavoidable.

Thank you thank you thank you!!! Beacon of knowledge :thumb: