Current running top keyboard recommendations for RSI sufferers

[tufty]

I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)

Not wanting to derail this into a vi/emacs flamefest, but why do you consider vi's commands more ergonomic than emacs' commands?

[davkol]

Ctrl+something+something+...

Celebrity Programers with RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury), Emacs, RSI, My Experiences, RepeatedStrainInjury

[dn]

Not sure if this is good for RSI people, but it does look really cool.

Ergonomic Steampunk Keyboard

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

That is the most stunningly decadent and luxurious looking keyboard I have ever seen!

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)

Not wanting to derail this into a vi/emacs flamefest, but why do you consider vi's commands more ergonomic than emacs' commands?

It's as davkol says. Emacs relies too much on ctrl-alt combinations. vi's cmds are more ergonomic - a lot of the time they're a single letter because you are in the dedicated cmd mode. But I prefer emacs because vi flaked when I tried combining the extensions I needed - I just just emacs (with the might Org Mode) and a vi compatibility mode - Evil, I think.

[TotalChaos]

but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)

Do u have any experience with this?  Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?

I am asking because they tried to blame my pain on that and I surely wish that would have been the problem!  A trapped nerve sounds like it could be untrapped!  Then I would be cured!  But they did a zillion MRIs and never found anything.  Although a few of the MRIs were performed incorrectly and don't actually count.

Also, what would it take to cause pain everywhere?  Could 1 trapped nerve do that?  What would it take?

due to a long reach for the mouse past a numeric pad - in which case a tenkeyless board and a trackball will help.

I say put the detached keyboard in your lap where it belongs and then you can keep your numeric keypad and your mouse and your health all at the same time! 

(And you might as well get a kb with soft cherry brown or capacitative switches.)

Cherry Red is softer than Brown.  So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.

I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)

I use CygnusEd and GoldEd.  Their keyboard shortcuts are mostly OS Key + alpha  or OS + SHIFT + alpha.     I think they have multi-modifier shortcuts but they are only for exotic things that I don't use anyway.

Anywayz I always have mouse and menus for rare complicated things.
 

and, ideally, a tiling windows manager like xmonad - you can get them for Windows and they get rid of a lot of mousing.

I mainly use screens instead of windows so I think we are both accomplishing the same end result, more or less.

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)

Do u have any experience with this?  Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?

God, yes - it's quite common. I had it, which is Alexander Technique fixed my RSI problem.

I am asking because they tried to blame my pain on that and I surely wish that would have been the problem!  A trapped nerve sounds like it could be untrapped!  Then I would be cured!  But they did a zillion MRIs and never found anything.  Although a few of the MRIs were performed incorrectly and don't actually count.

Ok:

1. Because a trapped nerve can cause RSI doesn't mean your diagnosis was correct

2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj

Did anyone mention Alexander Technique too you? It's arguably the most successful  treatment in this are - music schools in the UK tend to have it taught as a precaution to students who play the instruments that put them most at risk. It's cheaper than surgery (which may explain why medical recommendations  are rarer in the US for-profit system than outside it) and very low risk - in fact it's probably a true zero risk treatment.

Also, what would it take to cause pain everywhere?  Could 1 trapped nerve do that?  What would it take?

My belief is that once a trapped nerve is involved, almost any damn feeling of pain is possible - but hey, so not a doctor!

Cherry Red is softer than Brown.  So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.

I went for the browns because the tactile feedback comes before I bottom them out,  encouraging me therefore NOT to bottom them  out.

I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)

I use CygnusEd and GoldEd.  Their keyboard shortcuts are mostly OS Key + alpha  or OS + SHIFT + alpha.

That's as bad as emacs; I'd change.

 

I mainly use screens instead of windows so I think we are both accomplishing the same end result, more or less.

Are you sure that your neck alignment is good with multiple screens? I use a wide screen (a 24?) and 4 virtual desktops - this way I have perfect neck alignment and when I need to have docs and an editor and a shell open one desktop it's no problem to me. If you have been told you may have a trapped nerve, getting neck alignment right is a big thing.

[darkenergy572]

The datahand site seems to have finally been updated or at least I don't remember seeing the out of stock notice on the front-facing page (I remember having to check forums elsewhere to find out they were out of stock as the website didn't seem to indicate that they weren't in stock); I also received a brief reply to an email to them basically saying they're out of stock (no more information than that though).
 
http://www.datahand.com/

They've been saying this for a while now, but it makes me wonder if there's now a possibility that they'll be rolling out another limited time sale (like they one they had back in... 2010 was it?).  If such is the case, it makes considering ebay datahands seem like a bad idea.  Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions though.

I now have a rollermouse pro, a kinesis advantage LF (red cherries), and a maltron (off of ebay, but in good condition).  So I'm still trying them out, but I currently really like the kinesis.  The clicking noise it makes upon actuation is pretty nice too; it makes it easy to avoid bottoming out without help from a tactile switch like the browns.  I still need to give the maltron a proper go, but it only just arrived today.  Notably, that escape key on the Kinesis isn't friendly to my Vim usage and neither are those F keys (F1 - F12), but that's old news to anyone who's seen a picture of the keyboard, or this message board.

The rollermouse seems to relieve my hands a bit on the mouse usage, though it does feel a bit unwieldy to me still.  Not a bad product.

A month ago, I tried a realforce tenkeyless topre keyboard (all 45g keys), and then a safetype.  Both of them didn't really help.  Actually, the realforce was a bit hard on my hands despite being so soft.  Keys felt a bit heavy.  The safetype was a neat idea, but the keys were awful (having to bottom out to actuate is just... bad). My cheap 15$ keyboard was snappy and rough on my hands, but it actually felt easier on my fingers than the safetype's keys.

[TotalChaos]

but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)

Do u have any experience with this?  Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?

God, yes - it's quite common. I had it, which is Alexander Technique fixed my RSI problem.

I am asking because they tried to blame my pain on that and I surely wish that would have been the problem!  A trapped nerve sounds like it could be untrapped!  Then I would be cured!  But they did a zillion MRIs and never found anything.  Although a few of the MRIs were performed incorrectly and don't actually count.

Ok:

1. Because a trapped nerve can cause RSI doesn't mean your diagnosis was correct

They never said I had a trapped nerve.  They simply said they were looking for a trapped nerve and did a bunch of MRIs over a period of years + various CT Scans.

2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:

Doggone it.  Everything is so complicated.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj

Did anyone mention Alexander Technique too you?

No.  You are the very first person who has ever said that to me.

But keep in mind I have only been to around 45-50 doctors, 3 Chiropractors, and 3 or 4 physical therapists.  + I have talked to who knows how many patients in waiting rooms.

I think I would need to see 100 doctors before I qualified for top secret medical advice like Alexander Technique.


Or maybe my symptoms were so severe that they decided it had to be something much worse and scarier so they didn't want to get my hopes up?

Also, what would it take to cause pain everywhere?  Could 1 trapped nerve do that?  What would it take?

My belief is that once a trapped nerve is involved, almost any damn feeling of pain is possible - but hey, so not a doctor!

Advice from patients is usually better than advice from a doctor.

Cherry Red is softer than Brown.  So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.

I went for the browns because the tactile feedback comes before I bottom them out,  encouraging me therefore NOT to bottom them  out.

I would rather have a brown with a long travel to virtually guarantee not bottoming out.

Or I would like a Red with an electronic click.  I could not find any option for clicky keys in my Windoze xp box.  Do u know of one?

I have a W7 box from November that I never unpacked.  Does W7 have clicky keys option?

An electronic click could maybe help me not to crash the keys.

[TotalChaos]

2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj

That guy on Yahoo.  His symptoms sound exactly like what a trapped nerve should do!  I do not have his symptoms at all.  I have never had any symptoms that felt like a trapped nerve (weakness, numbness, tingling).

So now I am figuring I definitely don't have this pinched nerve in spine concept.  But I keep an open mind. 

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

But keep in mind I have only been to around 45-50 doctors, 3 Chiropractors, and 3 or 4 physical therapists.  + I have talked to who knows how many patients in waiting rooms.

I think I would need to see 100 doctors before I qualified for top secret medical advice like Alexander Technique.

It's the nature of for profit medicine - US treatment tends to be the most profitable possible rather than the most effective. For example, US hospitals use expensive heart drugs that test less well than prescription fish grade oils that European hospitals tend to prescribe, and so many unsuitable by-passes are performed that they are overall a wash on patient  outcome - because surgery itself is dangerous and performing it on lots of people who don't really need it will get some of them killed.

Re. AT: musicians really know their stuff and network compulsively, so try to find out which teacher near you the local music schools use.

Or I would like a Red with an electronic click.  I could not find any option for clicky keys in my Windoze xp box.  Do u know of one?

I rarely use windows these days, hence the xmonad reference. (It's the most advanced Linux tiling manager.)

An electronic click could maybe help me not to crash the keys.

Have you thought about o-rings???

[TheGreatAmphibianPling]

2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj

That guy on Yahoo.  His symptoms sound exactly like what a trapped nerve should do!  I do not have his symptoms at all.  I have never had any symptoms that felt like a trapped nerve (weakness, numbness, tingling).

So now I am figuring I definitely don't have this pinched nerve in spine concept.  But I keep an open mind. 

I don't know if EVERY case of a trapped nerve has the same symptoms, but yes, that's how I felt.

[hoggy]

The datahand site seems to have finally been updated or at least I don't remember seeing the out of stock notice on the front-facing page (I remember having to check forums elsewhere to find out they were out of stock as the website didn't seem to indicate that they weren't in stock); I also received a brief reply to an email to them basically saying they're out of stock (no more information than that though).
 
http://www.datahand.com/

They've been saying this for a while now, but it makes me wonder if there's now a possibility that they'll be rolling out another limited time sale (like they one they had back in... 2010 was it?).  If such is the case, it makes considering ebay datahands seem like a bad idea.  Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions though.

I now have a rollermouse pro, a kinesis advantage LF (red cherries), and a maltron (off of ebay, but in good condition).  So I'm still trying them out, but I currently really like the kinesis.  The clicking noise it makes upon actuation is pretty nice too; it makes it easy to avoid bottoming out without help from a tactile switch like the browns.  I still need to give the maltron a proper go, but it only just arrived today.  Notably, that escape key on the Kinesis isn't friendly to my Vim usage and neither are those F keys (F1 - F12), but that's old news to anyone who's seen a picture of the keyboard, or this message board.

The rollermouse seems to relieve my hands a bit on the mouse usage, though it does feel a bit unwieldy to me still.  Not a bad product.

A month ago, I tried a realforce tenkeyless topre keyboard (all 45g keys), and then a safetype.  Both of them didn't really help.  Actually, the realforce was a bit hard on my hands despite being so soft.  Keys felt a bit heavy.  The safetype was a neat idea, but the keys were awful (having to bottom out to actuate is just... bad). My cheap 15$ keyboard was snappy and rough on my hands, but it actually felt easier on my fingers than the safetype's keys.

Sounds like you're off to a flying start!  Datahands from ebay might be expensive, but tend to keep their value if you find it isn't for you.  You might as well wait until you've settled in with your existing boards though.  Once you've adapted to a board - think about getting another one!  Frequently changing boards can really help (I change mine each lunchtime).

I've got a safetype, but I can't bring myself to use it seriously.  There's a study that they link to on their website - they decided to build a vertical wrist rest before continuing the study...  Holding your hands in that position seems comfortable and the idea of the keyboard makes sense, but sadly it doesn't work in practice.

If you want to try something that's quite different - but still comfortable, easy to learn and relatively cheap - try the alphagrip.

[sordna]

Safetype is a FAIL because they keep the asymmetric staggered keys. It's bad enough in a flat split keyboard, but in a vertical one it's even more horrrible. BTW I have propped 2 Kinesis Advantage keyboards vertically to emulate a vertical keyboard, and could type very comfortably without errors on the first try. So I plan to mount the Ergodox in an almost vertical fashion.

[wolfv]

Sounds like you're off to a flying start!  Datahands from ebay might be expensive, but tend to keep their value if you find it isn't for you.  You might as well wait until you've settled in with your existing boards though.  Once you've adapted to a board - think about getting another one!  Frequently changing boards can really help (I change mine each lunchtime).

I've got a safetype, but I can't bring myself to use it seriously.  There's a study that they link to on their website - they decided to build a vertical wrist rest before continuing the study...  Holding your hands in that position seems comfortable and the idea of the keyboard makes sense, but sadly it doesn't work in practice.

If you want to try something that's quite different - but still comfortable, easy to learn and relatively cheap - try the alphagrip.

hoggy,

What kind of vertical wrist rest where you using?  Please provide a picture if you can.

This is what Frank at Safetype told me, referring to the picture on this page http://safetype.com/university-studies.htm > Chair 2: Ergomax Vertical Keyboard Arm Rests:

This chair/arm rest device was put together by Cornell University when they did testing and development work on the Safetype Keyboard.   The researchers at Cornell eventually concluded that arm rests/wrist rests are not generally recommended since they could tend to reduce the blood flow to the wrists and hands.

[Lanx]

Safetype is a FAIL because they keep the asymmetric staggered keys. It's bad enough in a flat split keyboard, but in a vertical one it's even more horrrible. BTW I have propped 2 Kinesis Advantage keyboards vertically to emulate a vertical keyboard, and could type very comfortably without errors on the first try. So I plan to mount the Ergodox in an almost vertical fashion.

sordna you need to find something like these vice
http://tool.wttool.com/tools/Tilt%20Vise

only not as expensive and i guess not a vise lol, but it was about the only way i could see getting a full range of vertical motion, while being stable.

[OldDataHands]

Get a datahand off ebay. It sounds to me like you shouldn't screw around your livelyhood.
I've got one at home, and one at the office. Been using them for years.
I can type all day in comfort, and the electronics are simple enough to replace if need be,
as gator456 showed here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12212.0

Furthermore, the mechanical design of the buttons is brilliant.  Tiny magnets provide the
force which hold the keys in their non-pressed state. When you apply the small amount
of force needed to start the key moving, the force drops dramatically until it's just enough
to lift the key back to it's home position.

The datahand folks do still answer email, if a bit delayed and slowly, but I don't think that
they have any serious plans to re-start production. That is a real shame since it is such a
great design.

In any case, both of mine work well, requiring only the occasional (maybe 3 times in 14 years)
removal of some debris or residue from an LED or photodiode to keep working. Just be
sure to put them on little stands like are shown in gator456's pictures. I mocked up some
cardboard stands 14 years ago, and still use them.. I just have to replace the scotch tape
which holds them together every 3 or 4 years!

[Davaris]

Datahand looks really interesting. Anyone know if they are still selling these things? They have an order page up, but their sales email address bounces.

If they are having money problems they should hold a Kickstarter. There must be plenty of people out there that would support them.

[Input Nirvana]

Datahand looks really interesting. Anyone know if they are still selling these things? They have an order page up, but their sales email address bounces.

If they are having money problems they should hold a Kickstarter. There must be plenty of people out there that would support them.

Datahand is effectively off-line. I think they have regular jobs now. Things could always change. Interestingly, in my talks with Lynn (at Datahand), she said selling Datahands was not the big problem....so there may have been other issues.

For the record, Datahands are not for everyone. Also, a lot of people think they are chorded, but they aren't.

[jalitt]

At work I use a Maltron keyboard with Maltron layout.  I like this keyboard quite a bit, but wish I had gotten cherry browns instead of blacks.  Otherwise I love this keyboard.

I also quite like my typematrix 2020(dvorak), the low force keys are a delight, but I prefer a split keyboard and also 3d bowl shape.

At home I have a yogitype(dvorak).  I am still trying to figure out how I feel about it.  I like the design, and the matrix layout for the left hand but the staggered keys on the right hand bum me out.  Also the keys feel much stiffer than the TM2020, though they are still fairly easy to press.  Also, its not really ideal for programmers because keys like home and end require holding down a function key.  I WANT to like this keyboard but I am going to end up replacing it with a Maltron with browns.  I think the yogitype could be ideal for many people.  It is well made, and really easy to learn to use because of the leds.  In addition, the wrist position is excellent.  However, my RSI is mostly in the fingers, and the stiff keys and lack of contour are ultimately deal breakers for me.

There is only one input device I would ever unequivocally recommend, and it is the datahand.  The datahand is the best input device ever made from an ergonomic standpoint.  The only problems with it were high cost and poor build quality, but form a usage standpoint it was ideal.  The datahand is the only input solution I have ever seen which actually eliminates repetitive motion.  Let me put it this way, if someone remade the datahand and backed it with lifetime warranty, I would be willing to pay a completely unreasonable amount for it(ie 20k+).  I paid 2k for one, and I would be using it to this day if it had not been so flaky.  I am a programmer so I rely on my hands too much to have an ergonomic solution I cannot rely on.

I have tried the kinesis advantage but prefer Maltron because the 3D contours felt deeper to me on the Maltron.  I did not actually measure this.

edit: one thing also I tried was two one handed Maltron keyboards with brown switches.  I did not really think this through as these keyboards were not designed to be used together.  They were simply too wide to too used effectively at once.  I will say these keyboards are excellent in their own right, and extremely comfortable to type on one handed.

I am going to order a custom bespoke keyboard from Maltron and I will make a new post when it arrives.

Also, in case you are wondering, I prefer Maltron to Dvorak layout.  Maltron is really nice, and well worth the effort of learning a new layout.  I have never tried Colemak.

[yasuo]

What switches on maltron?
is it true black switch?

[jalitt]

Yasuo,

Yes, black switches, and I have tremendous rsi in my fingers.  It is a true testament to the Maltron design that even with blacks, this keyboard is a true joy to type on.  The nice deep bowls, keys angled to my fingers, E key on the thumb, and matrix layout nearly eliminate all my finger pain, even with the blacks.  I can type all day, and my fingers feel fine.

I will definitely order another Maltron with browns in the next couple of weeks though, now that I am sure the yogitype is not for me.

[yasuo]

Yasuo,

Yes, black switches, and I have tremendous rsi in my fingers.  It is a true testament to the Maltron design that even with blacks, this keyboard is a true joy to type on.  The nice deep bowls, keys angled to my fingers, E key on the thumb, and matrix layout nearly eliminate all my finger pain, even with the blacks.  I can type all day, and my fingers feel fine.

I will definitely order another Maltron with browns in the next couple of weeks though, now that I am sure the yogitype is not for me.

Thanks jalitt,
It seems vintange black not black current, if  your maltron made 1980s I also interest type on 2 halves keyboard
after you type you like ambidextrous ) you like have 2 hands a balanced now

Do you ever wear besides maltron?