[GB] Granite Set ~ Sublimated Full PBT (spacebar included)

[intelli78]

I do understand what you're saying, but the point is, we have to do group buys because it isn't possible for the manufacturers to make the product available on an ongoing basis + an affordable price. Group buy is not perfect as you have stated but I don't think there is a credible alternative.

[Matt3o]

I think something is odd with the whole GB concept. At first we try to get a high amount of orders to hit the MOQ and reduce prices. Then, after deadline, tons of people want to order, but they can’t anymore. We all lose money this way. I guess alot of people want to see a prototype in a nice presentation before they’re getting in, isn’t it?

If people could order past the deadline, that wouldn't be a deadline... When the GB closes, funds are taken from your paypal account and production starts. You can't take more orders. The only thing you can do is run a round 2.

[jdeblese]

I think something is odd with the whole GB concept. At first we try to get a high amount of orders to hit the MOQ and reduce prices. Then, after deadline, tons of people want to order, but they can’t anymore. We all lose money this way. I guess alot of people want to see a prototype in a nice presentation before they’re getting in, isn’t it?

It's the chicken and the egg. Some won't invest until they've seen a prototype, but without investors a prototype is unaffordable.

[ideus]

I think something is odd with the whole GB concept. At first we try to get a high amount of orders to hit the MOQ and reduce prices. Then, after deadline, tons of people want to order, but they can’t anymore. We all lose money this way. I guess alot of people want to see a prototype in a nice presentation before they’re getting in, isn’t it?

It's the chicken and the egg. Some won't invest until they've seen a prototype, but without investors a prototype is unaffordable.

People may say they want to buy something after the GB dead line, but that does not necessarily mean they would actually had bought it if it was available. They may just be expressing some frustration due to they had not done their minds on time.

[drak3]

I might just be stating the obvious, but I think the idea of a group-buy is to make available a product which is in demand, but is not in such high demand that sustained production can be justified.  I think it should be understandable that obtaining of these kinds of products should have certain advantages and disadvantages.  The pros I see are, we're getting a product that is nearly custom (some more or less than others), and would be much more difficult or expensive to obtain otherwise.  The cons I see are that we may have to commit sight unseen, and wait much longer than most of us are used to.

Few things are ideal.

[Elrick]

The cons I see are that we may have to commit sight unseen, and wait much longer than most of us are used to.

YES, when you are first signed up here on Geekhack and everyone is talking about the latest, greatest Group Buy with key-caps there is sometimes very little evidence shown of what you are buying into.

Hence some people get hesitant about the whole process when first confronted with it.  I would say wait till someone sells it in the classifieds and you'll get your key-caps but you have to wait far longer than the actual Group Buy to buy and receive those key-caps.

Also knowing the BEST person to trust in running a Group Buy is central to handing over money for it.  I can list some people here but that would be stating the bloody obvious already  .

Because you are buying into something that has yet to be made means you need to summon a lot of patience because that will separate the men from the boys (children).  Great things come to those that wait and a Group Buy is all about that waiting process.

[Eszett]

but is not in such high demand that sustained production can be justified

Well, I don’t think so. When we speak economically, demand of luxury goods is’nt “there” beforehand, it is generated, and how high it is depends to a good degree how many people you’re reaching with your marketing. We need keycaps as much as jewelry hanging around our necks, it’s about appetite which has to be be roused. First you need to reach many people. For example it would be sensible, if the admins allowed Groupbuys to get an icon on the main page of geekhack.org. Then you have to make a good ad (photos, prototypes, explanations why someone should buy it). And then demand gets sky high. Not the other way around.

[tbc]

that's not true.

search up the history of 'thick blank black pbt'

[CommonCurt]

They are final. I believe shipping starts next week

Thank gawd 

I can not wait to get these.

[Matt3o]

almost forgot this is an intl forum. by "next" week I mean this week for those funky countries where week starts on Sunday.

[rowdy]

almost forgot this is an intl forum. by "next" week I mean this week for those funky countries where week starts on Sunday.

Within the next 7 days, in other words

For some of us the working day on Monday is nearly at a close.

[Matt3o]

5 days

[rowdy]

Even better!

Although it will be a good 3 weeks or so before they actually arrive over here.

[Matt3o]

Even better!

Although it will be a good 3 weeks or so before they actually arrive over here.

you've got koalas! you can't have everything!

[rowdy]

Even better!

Although it will be a good 3 weeks or so before they actually arrive over here.

you've got koalas! you can't have everything!

I haven't personally got one

[StylinGreymon]

Even better!

Although it will be a good 3 weeks or so before they actually arrive over here.

you've got koalas! you can't have everything!

I haven't personally got one

I was told all Aussies were issued koalas at birth...

Is this not the case?

[rowdy]

Even better!

Although it will be a good 3 weeks or so before they actually arrive over here.

you've got koalas! you can't have everything!

I haven't personally got one

I was told all Aussies were issued koalas at birth...

Is this not the case?

I live, work and play in the city - haven't seen a koala for years.

Actually, not quite true.  Last time we went to the zoo (couple of years ago now) I saw some.  And there were some huge emus that were in a sort of open compound that you could walk through, and they all gathered near the gate.  I think they were more aware that is how to get out then trying to stop the hapless visitors from escaping!

[Matt3o]

this is what happens when the hype is on

[DanielT]

If people could order past the deadline, that wouldn't be a deadline... When the GB closes, funds are taken from your paypal account and production starts. You can't take more orders. The only thing you can do is run a round 2.

That's a (t)rolling deadline and someone who is part of Round 5 knows what a PITA that is Missing a GB and hoping for a Round 2 is one thing, but waiting a year for stuff is hell :| at least for me

[Razor Lotus]

Well, the granite looks popular enough for SP to make some extra sets and sell it on their site if they wanted to.

Of course maybe this isn't a good enough reason and especially since there're so many sets to produce and not all of them will sell..

[StylinGreymon]

Well, the granite looks popular enough for SP to make some extra sets and sell it on their site if they wanted to.

Of course maybe this isn't a good enough reason and especially since there're so many sets to produce and not all of them will sell..

Matt3o has said a gorillion times that he hasn't given SP permission to use his designs, so I doubt that will happen.

[drak3]

but is not in such high demand that sustained production can be justified

Well, I don’t think so. When we speak economically, demand of luxury goods is’nt “there” beforehand, it is generated, and how high it is depends to a good degree how many people you’re reaching with your marketing. We need keycaps as much as jewelry hanging around our necks, it’s about appetite which has to be be roused. First you need to reach many people. For example it would be sensible, if the admins allowed Groupbuys to get an icon on the main page of geekhack.org. Then you have to make a good ad (photos, prototypes, explanations why someone should buy it). And then demand gets sky high. Not the other way around.

i'm not sure i agree with there not/never being demand beforehand.  when this group-buy was starting up, i was looking for a set for my ergodox.  i think supply and demand can be flipped around.  just like how invention can be the mother of necessity

however, if you're starting with little to no demand, and not even a physical prototype, i would think most companies would consider it very risky to start up full production.  with the group-buy model here, they can set minimum amounts to insure they at least break even, they can KNOW how much to produce, and they dont really have spend anything on advertising (we're doing it for them).  this seems very low risk to me. 

even seems like a group buy could serve as advertising:  everyone loves posting/seeing pictures of our toys.

it just seems to me like a group-buy could be a good way to start making something that could move into full time production/advertisement later.

[ideus]

Well, the granite looks popular enough for SP to make some extra sets and sell it on their site if they wanted to.

Of course maybe this isn't a good enough reason and especially since there're so many sets to produce and not all of them will sell..

if I have understood well, the Granite's design is not owned by SP. They should request Matt for authorization before they can make sets to sell them, out of a GB.

[DanielT]

The design is copyrighted as far as I know And it's a good thing, designing such a complex set is hard work.

[Matt3o]

Signature Plastics never asked for permission to use the legends because they are not interested in producing the set and selling it in the keyshop.

The legends are "copyrighted" because it's a work of the community and I don't see why a vendor should take advantage of it.

[Matt3o]

Good news and bad news.

Good news is that dispatch may start really soon (today or tomorrow).

Bad news regarding the international kits. We may end up making them red instead of blue (due to production issues with blue).

[jdeblese]

Oh damn

Do you know what the specific issue is, or have any photos? I prefer blue enough that I might be willing to take a somewhat faulty blue over a perfect red...

[LechnerDE]

Oh that's a little bummer

But I guess I can live with red...

[Matt3o]

I have some print test with blue and it turned out more like rotten-intestine-purple. SP will keep trying another couple of days but if it doesn't work out I gave them the green light to use red.

[GSimon]

People may say they want to buy something after the GB dead line, but that does not necessarily mean they would actually had bought it if it was available. They may just be expressing some frustration due to they had not done their minds on time.

This

People are so quick to say "oh man I just missed this group buy" or w.e and then when the opportunity comes back they don't buy into it.

Like this listing for PBT keyset: http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/28f5ef/buyingnavy_blue_15mm_thick_pbt_leopold_keycaps/ciae9gu I check the listed days after and it was still 3 left in stock.

[pasph]

This is not what we paid for.
I can live with red but this kind of approximation and improvisation is not a good attitude for a vendor or a maker.
The worst is put such a sour note on the monumental work Matt3o has made.

[intelli78]

Good news is that dispatch may start really soon (today or tomorrow).

Can't wait

[ideus]

People may say they want to buy something after the GB dead line, but that does not necessarily mean they would actually had bought it if it was available. They may just be expressing some frustration due to they had not done their minds on time.

This

People are so quick to say "oh man I just missed this group buy" or w.e and then when the opportunity comes back they don't buy into it.

Like this listing for PBT keyset: http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/28f5ef/buyingnavy_blue_15mm_thick_pbt_leopold_keycaps/ciae9gu I check the listed days after and it was still 3 left in stock.

Crystal clear, thank you.

Much clearer

[intelli78]

This is not what we paid for.
I can live with red but this kind of approximation and improvisation is not a good attitude for a vendor or a maker.
The worst is put such a sour note on the monumental work Matt3o has made.

I may be biased since I didn't order an international set, but...

let's look at the big picture...

This is a pretty minor issue. So many group buys (Redline, GH60, $60 60% case) have incredible delays or shenanigans. Overall, this group buy has been well-executed, timely, and well-run. Production issues do happen. I don't think this one needs to spoil the entire GB.

[ZeeKay]

In my opinion there are two options when a production issue occurs.

You either try to fix it (in this case make them red), or say tough luck and don't make them at all. While people may be upset because "that's not really what I ordered," and I totally understand that. Would you rather A: Have something that is ugly (and still isn't what you ordered) due to production issues, or B: not get it at all?

At least the Red has a precedent based on the Cyrillic set.

[drrtyrokka]

Blue for the international ones would have been sooo cool.
But of course I'd rather grab the red ones inspite of having ugly blues or nothing at all...

Seriously, what other options do we have??
Any other color like the rgb green isn't possible?

SP should give us some extra keys for this issues... it's not what we wanted!

[ideus]

Learning curve. This is the first time SP does sublimated legends, isn't it. So some details like this may happened.

Is there any other close to blue color that may be available? I think some samples may allow the buyers of that set to decide if they wanted with the variation in color, or if they prefer in red. I think they should be asked about their preferences.

[GSimon]

This is not what we paid for.
I can live with red but this kind of approximation and improvisation is not a good attitude for a vendor or a maker.
The worst is put such a sour note on the monumental work Matt3o has made.

I may be biased since I didn't order an international set, but...

let's look at the big picture...

This is a pretty minor issue. So many group buys (Redline, GH60, $60 60% case) have incredible delays or shenanigans. Overall, this group buy has been well-executed, timely, and well-run. Production issues do happen. I don't think this one needs to spoil the entire GB.

In my opinion there are two options when a production issue occurs.

You either try to fix it (in this case make them red), or say tough luck and don't make them at all. While people may be upset because "that's not really what I ordered," and I totally understand that. Would you rather A: Have something that is ugly (and still isn't what you ordered) due to production issues, or B: not get it at all?

At least the Red has a precedent based on the Cyrillic set.

Agreed however unless it was stated somewhere that the production colors may differ from the mock-ups (not just slightly different, but entirely), the best way to handle to the situation would be to allow refunds on sets to those who do not wish to have the red option, or credit them for sets in the future.

It boils down to what PMK wants to do, because like it or not they're one of the few platforms that runs keyset groupbuys on their site and this only impacts a small portion of their buyers. Until there's real competition this might be a drop in the bucket issue to them.

[Matt3o]

SP is still trying to make blue work, so there's still hope. But red is a more than acceptable alternative (and our safest bet).

In the meantime... this is monologend

[GSimon]

SP is still trying to make blue work, so there's still hope. But red is a more than acceptable alternative (and our safest bet).

In the meantime... this is monologend

Show Image

I feel like in an alternative universe people are using this layout and are laughing at us for our absurdly large spacebar

[intelli78]

Agreed however unless it was stated somewhere that the production colors may differ from the mock-ups (not just slightly different, but entirely), the best way to handle to the situation would be to allow refunds on sets to those who do not wish to have the red option, or credit them for sets in the future.

This sounds reasonable. I'm not saying everyone should just throw their hands in the air and take anything SP decides to do -- just saying that this is an issue to be taken in stride and dealt with, and should not spoil the awesomeness of this GB.

[StylinGreymon]

SP is still trying to make blue work, so there's still hope. But red is a more than acceptable alternative (and our safest bet).

In the meantime... this is monologend

Show Image

Yes.
Yessssssss...

[jlor]

This is not what we paid for.
I can live with red but this kind of approximation and improvisation is not a good attitude for a vendor or a maker.
The worst is put such a sour note on the monumental work Matt3o has made.

I may be biased since I didn't order an international set, but...

let's look at the big picture...

This is a pretty minor issue. So many group buys (Redline, GH60, $60 60% case) have incredible delays or shenanigans. Overall, this group buy has been well-executed, timely, and well-run. Production issues do happen. I don't think this one needs to spoil the entire GB.

In my opinion there are two options when a production issue occurs.

You either try to fix it (in this case make them red), or say tough luck and don't make them at all. While people may be upset because "that's not really what I ordered," and I totally understand that. Would you rather A: Have something that is ugly (and still isn't what you ordered) due to production issues, or B: not get it at all?

At least the Red has a precedent based on the Cyrillic set.

Agreed however unless it was stated somewhere that the production colors may differ from the mock-ups (not just slightly different, but entirely), the best way to handle to the situation would be to allow refunds on sets to those who do not wish to have the red option, or credit them for sets in the future.

It boils down to what PMK wants to do, because like it or not they're one of the few platforms that runs keyset groupbuys on their site and this only impacts a small portion of their buyers. Until there's real competition this might be a drop in the bucket issue to them.

While you are correct that it may just be a drop in the bucket problem for SP, it's still a ****ty way to do business.. Giving customers something that isn't what they ordered.

Honestly.. I'm not happy about red on my keyboard. I wasn't too happy with blue in the first place, but to get the intl kit I sort of coped with it. Red is a big change! It is a completely different color!
Like, it's in an entirely different part of the colorspectrum!

[BrokenGame]

Signature plastics has sent you a package  , I've been waiting for that email.

[StylinGreymon]

Signature plastics has sent you a package  , I've been waiting for that email.

Eh, seriously?

[Pieminister]

Oh my god people are making such a big deal about the international legends. I've got them ordered as well and I don't care if they are red or blue. I prefer blue but totally accept red or even green. It is how it is, we are such an entitled bunch here.

[Zeal]

Signature plastics has sent you a package  , I've been waiting for that email.

You must have been one of the early batch of buyers then.

[swill]

I got a shipping notice as well. I am guessing it would be for this.

[StylinGreymon]

Oh my god people are making such a big deal about the international legends. I've got them ordered as well and I don't care if they are red or blue. I prefer blue but totally accept red or even green. It is how it is, we are such an entitled bunch here.

Even as someone who didn't order the intl legends, I don't think that's very fair to say.
It's not entitlement to expect to get the thing you've already paid for.
Personally, I think it would be nice for SP to offer a refund of the intl kit to those interested.

[jdeblese]

Like intelli78 says, this is still an awesome set and I'm not gonna let one color ruin it.

However, saying we're an "entitled bunch" is going a bit far - we're paying customers, not beggars. If blue was gonna be an issue, I would have liked to know that beforehand, even though it probably wouldn't have changed my decisions.

Maybe we could even have figured out a solution ahead of time.