Author Topic: [GB] Gateron Switch (CLOSED)  (Read 462769 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ThatRusty

  • Posts: 29
  • Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1950 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 16:50:53 »
WOOOP! Switches came in on Friday (100 blues, 70 browns)! Now need to finish my deck so I can get on my new keyboard!

Thinking about trading my browns for cherry MX Clears, think someone would go for that?
Current Build - ErgoMini

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1951 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 17:14:01 »
the Clear tops are less wobbly than the originals, or did i misremember something?

I didn't notice any difference with my clear tops. They're just a rigid as the stock ones.

I'm thinking that between the rigidity and the lack of spacing on the LED side (as metal pointed out) is what is causing the issue.

I wonder if it's more prevalent with a specific slider?


The interference is between the top of the switch and the stem of the caps.

Offline Fnzzy

  • Posts: 722
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1952 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 05:59:46 »
My switches seem to be stuck in customs, it has been over 3 weeks since shipping and I haven't heard anything yet :( I hope they hurry.

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1953 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 06:25:38 »
My switches seem to be stuck in customs, it has been over 3 weeks since shipping and I haven't heard anything yet :( I hope they hurry.
I collected my switches from the post office yesterday, shouldn't be that long until you get them. ;)

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1954 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:32:36 »
The interference is between the top of the switch and the stem of the caps.
   
If I read right, and still hope it's Not true...   
The sticking problem seems from the person(s) at Gateron who assigned to copy Cherry MX switches.  He seems do not understood the role of both notches on top.   
Or he does not have Cherry 1800 or 3000 boards to verify his work. 
Thick caps as Cherry original, GMK double shots and some others seem have some interferences with a bit narrow Gateron stem holes??    :(
 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70376.msg1695644#msg1695644 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Gsf38Veoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2a5ZZyQ-t0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq6MPmEn-Rs&feature=youtu.be 
100321-0  100323-1  100325-2  100329-3    pics : Stabilized
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 May 2015, 23:33:51 by sprit »

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1955 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:35:02 »
I wonder how easy it would be to talk to them and work out some of the kinks... :rolleyes:

Offline azhdar

  • Praise the AZERTY god
  • Posts: 2435
  • Location: France
  • 65% Enlightened
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1956 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:36:31 »
The interference is between the top of the switch and the stem of the caps.
If I read right, and still hope it's Not true...   
The sticking problem seems from the person(s) at Gateron who assigned to copy Cherry MX switches.  He seems do not understood the role of both notches on top.   
Or he does not have Cherry 1800 or 3000 boards to verify his work. 
Thick caps as Cherry original, GMK double shots and some others seem have some interferences with a bit narrow Gateron stem holes??    :(
 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70376.msg1695644#msg1695644 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Gsf38Veoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2a5ZZyQ-t0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq6MPmEn-Rs&feature=youtu.be
 
(Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)
Isn't the problem only on the clear top, all videos and pictures I've seen about it were with clear top, not the milky one.

I have a gateron boards with cherry dyesubs on it. And I have no problem at all.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1957 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:37:25 »
The interference is between the top of the switch and the stem of the caps.
If I read right, and still hope it's Not true...   
The sticking problem seems from the person(s) at Gateron who assigned to copy Cherry MX switches.  He seems do not understood the role of both notches on top.   
Or he does not have Cherry 1800 or 3000 boards to verify his work. 
Thick caps as Cherry original, GMK double shots and some others seem have some interferences with a bit narrow Gateron stem holes??    :(
 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70376.msg1695644#msg1695644 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Gsf38Veoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2a5ZZyQ-t0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq6MPmEn-Rs&feature=youtu.be
 
(Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)
Isn't the problem only on the clear top, all videos and pictures I've seen about it were with clear top, not the milky one.

I have a gateron boards with cherry dyesubs on it. And I have no problem at all.
The clear and the milky tops are identical AFAICT.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14365
    • Tactile Zine
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1958 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:37:46 »
When I understood this thread right, there are two issues with Gateron switches
1) the leg is abit to thick for most PCB holes
2) the housing top (at the point where LEDs are mounted) touches and rubs against the keycap
correct?


That is right:


Gateron's legs are thicker and stem clearance is smaller than Cherry's causing interference with PCB holes, the first, and with cap stems the last. A small jewelry file tool may be handy to fix both, another additional step before soldering them.

Again...I think you're mistaken. Do you have Gaterons in hand and tried them out? They fit perfectly fine in the PCBs I've tried and caps fit on them just fine. I haven't had any jamming problems.

Just because you have to use a little extra force doesn't mean they don't fit into PCBs

Stop blowing things out of proportion.

Isn't the problem only on the clear top, all videos and pictures I've seen about it were with clear top, not the milky one.

I have a gateron boards with cherry dyesubs on it. And I have no problem at all.

I think this might be the case. I'm using the milky housing Gateron Blacks. I don't have any of the Clear housings.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:40:00 by CPTBadAss »

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1959 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:37:49 »
The interference is between the top of the switch and the stem of the caps.
If I read right, and still hope it's Not true...   
The sticking problem seems from the person(s) at Gateron who assigned to copy Cherry MX switches.  He seems do not understood the role of both notches on top.   
Or he does not have Cherry 1800 or 3000 boards to verify his work. 
Thick caps as Cherry original, GMK double shots and some others seem have some interferences with a bit narrow Gateron stem holes??    :(
 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70376.msg1695644#msg1695644 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Gsf38Veoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2a5ZZyQ-t0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq6MPmEn-Rs&feature=youtu.be
 
(Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)     (Attachment Link)
Isn't the problem only on the clear top, all videos and pictures I've seen about it were with clear top, not the milky one.

I have a gateron boards with cherry dyesubs on it. And I have no problem at all.


It is very likely that both tops share the same mold.

Offline azhdar

  • Praise the AZERTY god
  • Posts: 2435
  • Location: France
  • 65% Enlightened
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1960 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:40:59 »
Yeah and the second video is with the milky tops.

Still my gateron board has: cherry dyesubs, brocaps, krytone caps, and even GMK caps.
None of those caps is sticking at all.

Just like the same way that people say gaterons don't fit in pcb holes I don't get it, they fit nicely.

I don't get it.
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1961 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 08:43:38 »
I wonder how easy it would be to talk to them and work out some of the kinks... ::)
Email or Message to them ?

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1962 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:22:12 »
Again...I think you're mistaken. Do you have Gaterons in hand and tried them out? They fit perfectly fine in the PCBs I've tried and caps fit on them just fine. I haven't had any jamming problems.

I had to shave the legs a hair to get them to fit comfortably in my Butterfly Lightpad PCB.  Otherwise they were very difficult to push in and I'm not sure they sat all the way in.

Offline Spopepro

  • Posts: 229
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1963 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:13:07 »
I think if there's any story here it's how poorly defined the tolerances are for the various parts we work with.  I've not yet encountered any issues with keycap interference.  The switches dropped right into my RSIII PCB, but are a very, very tight fit on my winkeyless.kr board.  I've never seen a datasheet for the gaterons so I can't say for sure if they are made with exactly the same drill guide as their cherry counterparts.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14365
    • Tactile Zine
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1964 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:16:23 »
I think if there's any story here it's how poorly defined the tolerances are for the various parts we work with.  I've not yet encountered any issues with keycap interference.  The switches dropped right into my RSIII PCB, but are a very, very tight fit on my winkeyless.kr board.  I've never seen a datasheet for the gaterons so I can't say for sure if they are made with exactly the same drill guide as their cherry counterparts.

Here's a discussion with a datasheet from both Gateron and Cherry: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71368.msg1728555#msg1728555

Cherry is the top image, Gateron is below.

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1965 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:17:37 »
Keyboard switches are standard components; thus, they should meet the same design and manufacturing tolerances. In the other hand, there is now group thinking that motivates people to "look for the issues as reported by others", instead of objectively try the parts.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14365
    • Tactile Zine
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1966 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:20:17 »
Keyboard switches are standard components; thus, they should meet the same design and manufacturing tolerances.

Definitely not true. They do *not* have the same tolerances (see the post just above yours). But even with the differences in tolerances, I didn't have any issues with the Gaterons.


Offline Spopepro

  • Posts: 229
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1967 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:20:53 »
I think if there's any story here it's how poorly defined the tolerances are for the various parts we work with.  I've not yet encountered any issues with keycap interference.  The switches dropped right into my RSIII PCB, but are a very, very tight fit on my winkeyless.kr board.  I've never seen a datasheet for the gaterons so I can't say for sure if they are made with exactly the same drill guide as their cherry counterparts.

Here's a discussion with a datasheet from both Gateron and Cherry: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71368.msg1728555#msg1728555

Cherry is the top image, Gateron is below.

Thanks for that!  I'll pull out the calipers soon and see how the PCBs and the switches hold up to that.  I find it hard to believe that .05mm is the cause of this... something seems slightly out of spec.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14365
    • Tactile Zine
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1968 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:24:09 »
I'm guessing that there's multiple batches in play. Some of us got switches that are in the tolerance band and fit fine. Some have switches which are in the tolerance band and pass QC but don't fit.

That's all I'm trying to say. Don't be so quick to say ALL X ARE BAD or ALL Y ARE GOOD and then jump on that hype train. Do a little research and some testing on your own. (Not directing this at anyone in general, just this debate).

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1969 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:25:46 »
Keyboard switches are standard components; thus, they should meet the same design and manufacturing tolerances. In the other hand, there is now group thinking that motivates people to "look for the issues as reported by others", instead of objectively try the parts.

Looser tolerances mean lower cost.  It seems that leg holes are looser on consumer mass produced PCBs as well, so those tolerances don't matter as much.

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 8123
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Björkö.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1970 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:26:37 »
Keyboard switches are standard components; thus, they should meet the same design and manufacturing tolerances.

Definitely not true. They do *not* have the same tolerances (see the post just above yours). But even with the differences in tolerances, I didn't have any issues with the Gaterons.


I know Gateron approaches the diameter and true position tolerances for pins differently, what I said is that the final product should fit a standard PCB in the same way than Cherry, what we have in fact is that Gateron's design approach is producing some parts that do not fit a standard PCB as well as Cherry. That means Cherry has a better design approach, as reported by some, reports that I should not dismiss, just because other of us do not experience.

Offline FoC_Tow

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1142
  • Location: Germany
  • Brokehlicious
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1971 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 16:32:02 »
I picked up my Gaterons from the customs office today but didn't have much time for testing yet as I was pretty busy.

From briefly testing a couple of loose switches with Krytone Caps on them tho I noticed I could cause them to get stuck by purposely tilting the cap slightly before pressing, but even off center pushing of the Caps would NOT cause them to tilt enough to get stuck. So it looked like no issue on regular typing.

On the other hand, the room for error seems to be very small, so I can definitely imagine that even thicker stems (or the same thickness but with slight imperfections/marks from molding left on them) could cause this to be noticeable even on regular typing.

I will probably do some tests with filing ever so slightly on a few switches like CPTBadAss mentioned as it feels like just a tiny bit of additional play/wiggle-room would totally eliminate the issue even covering possible tolerances.


Also I was testing with the milky switch tops btw, but from the looks both seem to be using the same mold.
I guess due to potential differences in flex/hardness and maybe shrinkage of the material there might still be slight differences, but it looks like both will be affected about the same.

Offline TLExile

  • Posts: 22
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1972 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 20:58:27 »
Having playing with these switches for a few hours and inspecting them and not finding a single one that had the plastic extrusion that catches the stem i have to agree that there was probably a batch that was sent that was bad.

But i do love that the tops on the gateron actually allows 3mm led's with flanges to fit flush with the top as opposed to the cherry ones that require sanding. nice touch

Offline Grrizz

  • Posts: 41
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1973 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 02:34:30 »
In regards to the tolerances I get the feeling with the PCBs it could be the PCBs themselves, I've noticed when it comes to both plates and PCBs some designers prefer to use a reduced spec so their nominal hole values are less than the switches nominal speced values but within tolerance to help make things more snug on Cherrys, the problem being when you add tolerances onto the reduced nominal value they could go under spec, pair that with Gateron using a tight fit PCB pin vs. Cherrys loose fit (I'm speculating on that but it seems to be the case) and you have issues with Gateron but not Cherry even though both are within spec.

The cap catching problem is tough to say what part is the issue because I've never seen a spec on that part of the switch but again it could possibly be the cap makers tolerance instead of the switch, the reason I tend to think this is I have seen a post where one cap would work fine on any switch but another from the same set would catch on any switch suggesting a variance in the caps not the switches. Gaterons have a visibly smaller, if only slightly (~0.3mm), clearance on the LED side of the switch but the above example tends to suggest their tolerances are fairly consistent even though they seem to have tighter nominal fits all round. I would be interested to hear from others with catching caps if they catch on all switches or if they catch on some but not others as that would help narrow down if its a cap tolerance issue paired with tighter fitting switch dimensions or if it is in fact looser tolerances on the switches themselves.

So far all the caps I've tried (granted not a lot) don't catch and the PCBs I've designed with measurements taken directly from the Cherry/Gateron (they are the same) metric spec fit tightly. I'm still very happy with the switches and if I do run into these issues I'm glad its a fairly simple fix but if they are actually issues with the switches tolerances it would be a shame as it would be a good reason for mass producers to overlook using them.

My 2c :)

Edit: After digging a bit more it looks like the PCB pins on the Gaterons have a ~1.5mm core with three ~0.15mm "wings", the hole specs are 1.7-0.05mm (Cherry) 1.7+/-0.05mm (Gateron) which would suggest the Gaterons "wings" are in fact designed to be press fit onto the PCB being the pins have a maximum cross-section of 1.65mm and a interference circumference of 1.8mm requiring a 0.025-0.075mm compression on the wings. I don't have any PCB mount Cherrys to compare.

For reference the stem clearance on Cherrys are ~6.65mm while on Gaterons it's ~6.35mm so with what I regard as a standard stem (5.5mm) there shouldn't be any issues but thicker ones at 6mm or larger might have issues depending on how much wobble comes into play.

I would say my measurements are reasonably accurate but there may be some error due to the sharp edges of my callipers cutting into the softer plastic and in the case of the stem clearance the thin walls may have flexed a small amount (I was as careful as I could be and took measurements from several switches for comparison).
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2015, 05:05:03 by Grrizz »

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1974 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 03:42:47 »
But i do love that the tops on the gateron actually allows 3mm led's with flanges to fit flush with the top as opposed to the cherry ones that require sanding. nice touch
I haven't even realised this, but yes my 3mm LEDs with flange fit as well. That's pretty awesome! :cool:

Offline Fire Brand

  • Keeper of Rainbows
  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 2439
  • Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
  • BISCUITS!
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1975 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 08:13:27 »
Again...I think you're mistaken. Do you have Gaterons in hand and tried them out? They fit perfectly fine in the PCBs I've tried and caps fit on them just fine. I haven't had any jamming problems.

I had to shave the legs a hair to get them to fit comfortably in my Butterfly Lightpad PCB.  Otherwise they were very difficult to push in and I'm not sure they sat all the way in.
Just also chiming in had my gaterons for a couple of weeks now and I would like to say the one I have are very tight when pushing into the pcb test on a leopold 210 keypad and a pure pcb both needed quite a bit of froce to seat them correctly but I will say for the pure or any pcb mount it makes them a lot sturdier and seem to be better aligned and not wobbly like I had with cherry switches anyway that's my musing on them
My Youtube Channel ~
More
Keyboards owned
More
Poker II - MX Black, Poker II ISO - MX Blue :c QFR ISO - MX Black, HHKB Pro 2 Black, VA68M - Gat Blacks w/68g Gold springs
My classified thread :3
More

Offline Fnzzy

  • Posts: 722
  • Location: Germany
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1976 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 09:43:50 »
Just got my switches, thanks! I didn't count them yet but I think everything is correct. :)

Offline Spopepro

  • Posts: 229
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1977 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:33:51 »
Edit: After digging a bit more it looks like the PCB pins on the Gaterons have a ~1.5mm core with three ~0.15mm "wings", the hole specs are 1.7-0.05mm (Cherry) 1.7+/-0.05mm (Gateron) which would suggest the Gaterons "wings" are in fact designed to be press fit onto the PCB being the pins have a maximum cross-section of 1.65mm and a interference circumference of 1.8mm requiring a 0.025-0.075mm compression on the wings. I don't have any PCB mount Cherrys to compare.

Measuring a few cherry switches I got readings between 1.6 and 1.7mm as I moved around the pin (due to the aforementioned "wings" to create the interference fit).  I get exactly the same results with a handful of Gaterons using the same method.  So the diameter wouldn't have an effect.  But I don't have fine enough equipment to measure the width and length of the "wings" which could create more or less interference.

Interestingly, the drill holes for the pins on the RSIII measure right around 1.7mm... right on spec.  The winkeyless.kr holes measure all around 1.52mm... which is out of spec regardless of switch.

So what I think (think...) is going on is that the designers are placing a 1.7mm drill hole, and then the fancy soldermask that is used is closing up the hole a little bit.

Based on what I can measure, it's not the switches, it's the PCBs that are out of spec. 

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1978 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 19:31:59 »
Hello! Good evening!    ;) 
 
My W series  PCBs  have exactly 1.7mm  pin holes.    People say it's very snug and comfy for Cherry MX,  and bit tight for Gaterons.

I guess it's same with the winkeyless.kr PCBs.
If A winkeyless.kr PCB was measured as 1.52mm by you,  there seems a problem.  Need to confirm.  ;)


100637-0   100635-1   100639-2
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2015, 19:44:32 by sprit »

Offline Spopepro

  • Posts: 229
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1979 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 19:45:14 »
Spirit, have you measured what you actually get after masking is applied? To the eye, it looks like the holes were drilled at 1.7mm but were occluded by soldermasking. I'm just curious.

I went back and measured more holes to be sure, and found many larger, but all at or under 1.6mm on my winkeyless board. To be sure: it's not really a problem, just requires a touch more focus.

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1980 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 19:50:50 »
Spirit, have you measured what you actually get after masking is applied? To the eye, it looks like the holes were drilled at 1.7mm but were occluded by soldermasking. I'm just curious.

I went back and measured more holes to be sure, and found many larger, but all at or under 1.6mm on my winkeyless board. To be sure: it's not really a problem, just requires a touch more focus.
Oh!   Thanks So Much!!   Spopepro!   :thumb:
Covered by soldermask :  I will write back in 30 min after a break. 

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1981 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 20:09:36 »
Spirit, have you measured what you actually get after masking is applied? To the eye, it looks like the holes were drilled at 1.7mm but were occluded by soldermasking. I'm just curious.

I went back and measured more holes to be sure, and found many larger, but all at or under 1.6mm on my winkeyless board. To be sure: it's not really a problem, just requires a touch more focus.
 
No problem at all with my W (Worldwide) versions of PCBs.   No that report yet.   ;)
It seems Your PCB from winkeyless.kr is a bad batch.   As you know it should Not covered by soldermask, according to PCB production process.
Thanks for the info!   ;)
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:05:46 by sprit »

Offline Grrizz

  • Posts: 41
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1982 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:05:16 »
Edit: After digging a bit more it looks like the PCB pins on the Gaterons have a ~1.5mm core with three ~0.15mm "wings", the hole specs are 1.7-0.05mm (Cherry) 1.7+/-0.05mm (Gateron) which would suggest the Gaterons "wings" are in fact designed to be press fit onto the PCB being the pins have a maximum cross-section of 1.65mm and a interference circumference of 1.8mm requiring a 0.025-0.075mm compression on the wings. I don't have any PCB mount Cherrys to compare.

Measuring a few cherry switches I got readings between 1.6 and 1.7mm as I moved around the pin (due to the aforementioned "wings" to create the interference fit).  I get exactly the same results with a handful of Gaterons using the same method.  So the diameter wouldn't have an effect.  But I don't have fine enough equipment to measure the width and length of the "wings" which could create more or less interference.

Interestingly, the drill holes for the pins on the RSIII measure right around 1.7mm... right on spec.  The winkeyless.kr holes measure all around 1.52mm... which is out of spec regardless of switch.

So what I think (think...) is going on is that the designers are placing a 1.7mm drill hole, and then the fancy soldermask that is used is closing up the hole a little bit.

Based on what I can measure, it's not the switches, it's the PCBs that are out of spec.

It sounds like the Cherry and Gateron pins are much the same then. The way I got the wing size was to measure the width of the core of the pin (1.5mm) with the tips of the callipers slightly overhanging the half way mark so as to prevent them resting on any of the wings then measure from the edge of a wing to the opposite side of the core of the pin (1.65mm) and subtract one measurement from the other to get the wing alone (0.15mm), the interference circumference is then the core + 2 times the wings (1.5 + 2 x 0.15 = 1.8mm). Running the callipers around the pin would mean you are always in contact with at least one wing so measurements of 1.6-1.7mm would be pretty much the same as the Gaterons.

With the holes being so far out of spec on the Winkeyless PCB its interesting no-ones had fitting problems with the Cherrys. Then again from what I've seen most people seem to have plate mount Cherrys, a lot of custom builds use clones and if it only affects a portion of the boards it might have been an issue but it just wasn't talked about due to it being such a small portion of the market (*speculation*).
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:09:55 by Grrizz »

Offline nubbinator

  • Dabbler Supreme
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 8658
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • Model M "connoisseur"
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1983 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:24:38 »
Alright, since the plural of anecdote is data, and data only becomes relevant at an n of 30, I took measurement of 60 legs, 15 Black right legs, 15 Black left legs, 15 Clear right legs, 15 Clear left legs.

Here's the numbers:

  • Right Leg:
    • Average: 1.61633...mm
    • Min & Max: 1.56mm, 1.68mm
  • Left Leg:
    • Average: 1.638mm
    • Min & Max: 1.57mm, 1.70mm
  • Total Average: 1.6271mm

There's a fair degree of variation in the leg sizes and I get the feeling that some of the legs may actually be wider at points due to the three offshoots I identified earlier, but it's difficult to properly and accurately measure.  When I was twisting the calipers around, they were getting diameters larger than 1.75mm at times, but I couldn't tell if it was due to torsion or something else.  That and I was afraid it might bite into the stem and give inaccurate readings, so I stuck with spot measures.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 May 2015, 21:26:48 by nubbinator »

Offline Spopepro

  • Posts: 229
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1984 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 22:52:26 »
Thanks for measuring spirit. Yep, it appears my pcb is a little off. But I think this supports the idea that the issue isn't as much the switches themselves, but more to to with what you are sticking them into and placing on top.

Offline wlhlm

  • Posts: 700
  • Location: Germany
  • ~
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1985 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 04:20:31 »
Alright, since the plural of anecdote is data, and data only becomes relevant at an n of 30, I took measurement of 60 legs, 15 Black right legs, 15 Black left legs, 15 Clear right legs, 15 Clear left legs.

Here's the numbers:

  • Right Leg:
    • Average: 1.61633...mm
    • Min & Max: 1.56mm, 1.68mm
  • Left Leg:
    • Average: 1.638mm
    • Min & Max: 1.57mm, 1.70mm
  • Total Average: 1.6271mm

There's a fair degree of variation in the leg sizes and I get the feeling that some of the legs may actually be wider at points due to the three offshoots I identified earlier, but it's difficult to properly and accurately measure.  When I was twisting the calipers around, they were getting diameters larger than 1.75mm at times, but I couldn't tell if it was due to torsion or something else.  That and I was afraid it might bite into the stem and give inaccurate readings, so I stuck with spot measures.
Thanks a lot for the measurements! Can you compare them to Cherry PCB switches?

Offline okwchin

  • Posts: 164
  • Location: Australia
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1986 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 06:22:49 »
Just got my switches from the post office.

Its mostly un-plated copper, with the tiniest hint of gold on the bit that matters.

I would say that for as long as the gold doesn't wear off, it should be fine.

Here are some iPhone photos :) (clickable thumbnails to enjoy 100% crops of high ISO photos)

100674-0
100676-1
« Last Edit: Thu, 14 May 2015, 06:30:44 by okwchin »

Offline ROFLmonstar

  • Posts: 17
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1987 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 10:14:49 »
Got mine today, and besides a missing black switch and an extra clear top, everything is here!
Thanks for running this GB and great work Shadovved and hwood34!

Offline swill

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3365
  • Location: Canada eh
  • builder & enabler
    • swillkb.com
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1988 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 11:36:05 »
Just got my switches from the post office.

Its mostly un-plated copper, with the tiniest hint of gold on the bit that matters.

I would say that for as long as the gold doesn't wear off, it should be fine.

Here are some iPhone photos :) (clickable thumbnails to enjoy 100% crops of high ISO photos)

(Attachment Link)

Thanks for the pic.  That is a great shot to show that there is some gold on the contacts.  Thx...

Offline Art of Payce

  • Posts: 73
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1989 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 18:52:27 »
Can anyone point me to reviews on Gateron Browns?

Offline daviswalkers

  • Posts: 296
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
  • HHKB Amature 2
    • Graphic Design Portfolio
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1990 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 02:08:17 »
so here is what i did with mine my first custom built keyboard sadly the caps i ordered ive been waiting on for 3 month but ive seen people wait longer, currently typing on the switches atm lol.  for some reason the shift key isn't capitalizing even though in the keymapper it registers the shift key keypresses so if anyone has any insight on that please let me know (edit I figured it out I was on the Fn layer when I mapped shift!), also as im sure you can tell by the picture the leds are pretty dim compared to the lock key leds and i can seem to figure that out as well as why a few key's lights dont work at all as they're soldered in well and correctly also they worked when tested in other locations and the caps lock led worked before i mapped it to be control instead ... either way here's the picture in all of its potato glory

Show Image


Solder on the LEDs the other way around for the bottom mods. If you look closely on the PCB, the polarity is facing a he other way (this is due to wkl support). Not too sure about your esc key, perhaps check polarity on that as well?

Thanks sorry for the late reply for some reason tapatalk never notified me of this reply got everything working now, just waiting on caps and it's complete!
      
Compact-SQ |          VE.A
 65g Zealios    |      78g Zealios

Offline greath

  • Posts: 231
  • Location: Maryland
  • A waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1991 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 22:57:20 »
Just installed my blacks with 62g gold springs from sprit. No catching. Smooth as hell. Almost oddly smooth. It feels weird... verging on mushy. I think I might need to try a different spring weight.

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1992 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 23:31:55 »
Just installed my blacks with 62g gold springs from sprit. No catching. Smooth as hell. Almost oddly smooth. It feels weird... verging on mushy. I think I might need to try a different spring weight.

Any pings or squeaks?   added lube?    Do You mean feel like Zero-gravitational?   
I guess almost No lube will be OK   ;)
My 55g will remind of Topre 45g,  IMO.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2015, 23:40:21 by sprit »

Offline greath

  • Posts: 231
  • Location: Maryland
  • A waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap.
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1993 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 23:42:03 »
Sprit,

A couple squeeks that I'm sure I can fix with lube, but that's not what is weird.

I was using mx reds and bottoming out. These Gateron switches are a lot smoother. Combined with your springs, I'm no longer bottoming out easily, so my fingers are confused to if I have activated the switch or not. My fingers are weirded out but a lack of any type of tactile feedback... scratchiness, bottoming out, etc. It's making it feel mushy for lack of a better word. I think I'm going to need 60g springs :P

I will have to try them for a couple more days before I decide anything.

Thank you for the concern.
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 May 2015, 23:44:27 by greath »

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1994 on: Fri, 15 May 2015, 23:48:49 »
Some Squeaks may fixed with re-positioning of springs,
As you know, springs have cutting directions at both ends.  It affects it's movement, afaic 

Gateron may feel frictionless compare to current Reds or Blacks, thou Not as much as the good Vintage Blacks.
If you are a MX Red user, my 55g (actuation 45g) is a counterpart   ;)
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 May 2015, 11:56:30 by sprit »

Offline mic)

  • Posts: 8
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1995 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 06:27:45 »
Big thanks to shadovved and hwood34!!

With the DSA keycaps from Signature Plastics I have absolutely no problem with sticking keys.
The clear switches feel very smooth and I really like the low actuation force, though I yet have to feel them in real typing action.

What's perfect for me is that these Gateron switches fit perfectly in the Falbatech ErgoDox PCB. One has to firmly press them into the PCB but then they sit very tight. This is great because I want a simple version of the ErgoDox without a mounting plate and without a case and the switches seem perfect for that.

For comparison I only have a couple of plate-mount Cherry MX switches (since the PCB-mount MX switches are like impossible to source) and the two plastic legs make a huge difference! Much more stable and it's impossible to slightly twist the switch before soldering, so the mounting position is very precise.

For me that's great because I didn't want to go through the hassle with a mounting plate and with the two plastic legs it feels very sturdy, also since the PCBs are quite stiff.

Offline TheSoulhunter

  • Posts: 1169
  • Location: Euroland
  • Thorpelicious!
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1996 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 09:14:24 »
Got em, thanks allot! ^^

Offline RavenII

  • Posts: 191
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1997 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 10:32:00 »
Some Squeaks may fixed with re-positioning of springs,
As you know, springs have directions at both ends.  It affects it's movement, afaic 

Gateron may feel frictionless compare to current Reds or Blacks, thou Not as much as the good Vintage Blacks.
If you are a MX Red user, my 55g (actuation 45g) is a counterpart   ;)


So 55g springs are better? I'm thinking about swapping my Gateron Black springs to something a slight bit lighter....but I want a little heavier than MX Reds....

Offline awhitedev

  • Posts: 393
  • Location: Ohio, USA
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1998 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 11:04:12 »
Some Squeaks may fixed with re-positioning of springs,
As you know, springs have directions at both ends.  It affects it's movement, afaic 

Gateron may feel frictionless compare to current Reds or Blacks, thou Not as much as the good Vintage Blacks.
If you are a MX Red user, my 55g (actuation 45g) is a counterpart   ;)


So 55g springs are better? I'm thinking about swapping my Gateron Black springs to something a slight bit lighter....but I want a little heavier than MX Reds....

I've tried a few different springs in my Gateron Blacks and I keep going back to the stock springs. They're really nice springs... not too heavy, not too light... and they have a nice cushiony bottom-out.

Offline sprit

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 2425
  • Location: The Geek Symphosion :::::: Mechanical Engineering ::: Alta Magna Uniforma :::::: 哀吾生之須臾羨長江之無窮 ::
Re: [GB] Gateron Switch
« Reply #1999 on: Sat, 16 May 2015, 11:45:51 »
Some Squeaks may fixed with re-positioning of springs,
As you know, springs have directions at both ends.  It affects it's movement, afaic 

Gateron may feel frictionless compare to current Reds or Blacks, thou Not as much as the good Vintage Blacks.
If you are a MX Red user, my 55g (actuation 45g) is a counterpart   ;)


So 55g springs are better? I'm thinking about swapping my Gateron Black springs to something a slight bit lighter....but I want a little heavier than MX Reds....
A bit heavier than MX reds will be my 60g (actuation 50g) 
My 55g (actuation 45g) is similar to MX Reds, with more stability and quick responces.
Stock Gateron springs are nice,  but a bit narrow choices  in my opinion   :)