What is the softest spring to actuate properly with SA keycaps?

[ideus]

Does anybody have experience with what is the softest spring that actuate with SA caps properly. Or what stock MX switches work properly with SA. I read someone's comment about SA being too heavy for reds for example, causing the spring back to lag a little.

[swill]

Does anybody have experience with what is the softest spring that actuate with SA caps properly. Or what stock MX switches work properly with SA. I read someone's comment about SA being too heavy for reds for example, causing the spring back to lag a little.

I think it depends on which switch you are using.  I found that lubed 62g clears felt a little sluggish on the return with SA caps, so I switched them out to 65g and they feel fine now.  Keep in mind that clears have a very noticeable bump, so the return is going to be more problematic with clears than any other switches (I think).  That should give you an idea of what to expect...

[ideus]

Does anybody have experience with what is the softest spring that actuate with SA caps properly. Or what stock MX switches work properly with SA. I read someone's comment about SA being too heavy for reds for example, causing the spring back to lag a little.

I think it depends on which switch you are using.  I found that lubed 62g clears felt a little sluggish on the return with SA caps, so I switched them out to 65g and they feel fine now.  Keep in mind that clears have a very noticeable bump, so the return is going to be more problematic with clears than any other switches (I think).  That should give you an idea of what to expect...

Thank you very much for the tip. I will mod my upcoming clears with 65g springs, and I am planning to get the new midnight set in SA profile from Matt to pair with my clears, so I think it will be precisely the same case as yours. Should I also lub them, or just wait for the bump to get grinding with use? If I add stickers that may affect the spring back?

[swill]

Does anybody have experience with what is the softest spring that actuate with SA caps properly. Or what stock MX switches work properly with SA. I read someone's comment about SA being too heavy for reds for example, causing the spring back to lag a little.

I think it depends on which switch you are using.  I found that lubed 62g clears felt a little sluggish on the return with SA caps, so I switched them out to 65g and they feel fine now.  Keep in mind that clears have a very noticeable bump, so the return is going to be more problematic with clears than any other switches (I think).  That should give you an idea of what to expect...

Thank you very much for the tip. I will mod my upcoming clears with 65g springs, and I am planning to get the new midnight set in SA profile from Matt to pair with my clears, so I think it will be precisely the same case as yours. Should I also lub them, or just wait for the bump to get grinding with use? If I add stickers that may affect the spring back?

Stickers should not change the switch action at all.

If your clears are new, you may want to look over the stems when you work on them and take a razorblade to the mold lines if they are not smooth. I saw Ivan suggest this in another thread and it makes a lot of sense. This should reduce the break in time quite a bit.

As for lube. I would definitely lube them. It is going to make the break in time more tolerable. That's my opinion anyway.

As for spring weight, I like my 65g, I think it is a good weight. On my next board with clears I think I am going to use 68g springs though. I built a board with 68g browns a little while ago and it was pretty interesting. I think 68g clears would feel really nice, so I am going to try that next.

[ideus]

Alright then, smoothing the mold lines and lubing them. 

[Synjin]

I am currently typing on a viper with lubed 62g clears SA caps and it seems to work fine. I would say that the return does feel odd at first since my switches are new and it took some breaking in time before it all became really smooth but I think swill's suggestion is good if you start at 65g. Ivan did suggest using a razor to smooth out the stems because he thinks that since cherry is producing a much higher amount of switches in a shorter time span, they are rushing it causing some of the stems to not be cleared out as well resulting in those fine plastic remnants.

[Oobly]

I would hold back on the lubing. Wear them in first. If you lube them straight away, they're going to be smoother than stock, but they will simply not wear in properly due to the lack of friction. If you wear them in first, then lube them you'll get the smoothest effect.

Shave the mold lines, though, if you find any. That will certainly improve the wear-in time. It seems all the newer MX switches I have tried have quite noticable "scratchiness" and it's taking a long time to wear in my current Clears. I'll be shaving the stems on the Clears going into my next build (GON NerD60 in a black Vortex aluminium case).

I'm typing this on unlubed 62g Clears with the Penumbra SA set on and I think they suit each other perfectly. No problems with slow "spring back". The extra weight does affect the acceleration of the caps in both directions, but I don't notice any slowness in the return of the keys. They pop up as fast as or faster than my fingers lift off them. And they do pop nicely on 62g springs Perhaps I just type too slowly to notice, though.

I'll probably skip the Midnight SA set, but if he runs Retro or Skull Squadron SA I will be on it like white on rice

[katushkin]

My SA caps seem to work fine on my clears. I have been using the board for about 6 months however, so It has been worn in for a little.

[MGH]

Does anybody have experience with what is the softest spring that actuate with SA caps properly. Or what stock MX switches work properly with SA. I read someone's comment about SA being too heavy for reds for example, causing the spring back to lag a little.

I think it depends on which switch you are using.  I found that lubed 62g clears felt a little sluggish on the return with SA caps, so I switched them out to 65g and they feel fine now.  Keep in mind that clears have a very noticeable bump, so the return is going to be more problematic with clears than any other switches (I think).  That should give you an idea of what to expect...

Thank you very much for the tip. I will mod my upcoming clears with 65g springs, and I am planning to get the new midnight set in SA profile from Matt to pair with my clears, so I think it will be precisely the same case as yours. Should I also lub them, or just wait for the bump to get grinding with use? If I add stickers that may affect the spring back?

Stickers should not change the switch action at all.

If your clears are new, you may want to look over the stems when you work on them and take a razorblade to the mold lines if they are not smooth. I saw Ivan suggest this in another thread and it makes a lot of sense. This should reduce the break in time quite a bit.

As for lube. I would definitely lube them. It is going to make the break in time more tolerable. That's my opinion anyway.

As for spring weight, I like my 65g, I think it is a good weight. On my next board with clears I think I am going to use 68g springs though. I built a board with 68g browns a little while ago and it was pretty interesting. I think 68g clears would feel really nice, so I am going to try that next.

Where exactly are the mold lines? I don't want to screw up my switches

[Oobly]

...
Where exactly are the mold lines? I don't want to screw up my switches

On the slider. Specifically the sides that contact the rails in the lower case. There are vertical mold lines on the far outside edges and horizontal ones which go from the "bump" side to the part that goes into the rail. These are the critical ones. On my latest build I have shaved these areas with a scalpel, but I have not put keycaps on the resulting switches yet, so it's hard to tell if there's much improvement, although they do seem at least a bit smoother (could just be wishful thinking at this stage, though). At worst you could put extra scratches on the slider, but they should all smooth out with use. Shaving the side edges from top to bottom and extending the movement past the bottom edge also smooths off the bottom edge a little.

I noticed that on most of the sliders from a new G80 the side mold lines do not protrude, but the edges are actually a little concave and the bottom edges are very sharp. The horizontal mold line usually has the upper part sticking out just a hair and sometimes the line itself is protruding. It's hard to tell which part contributes to the scratchiness most, could even be the rails in the lower case or a too sharp bottom edge on the slider, but at least having one part as smooth as possible to start out is better than leaving them stock. If I find some time I will use one switch as a tester, shaving different parts and testing which creates the biggest improvement in smoothness. Hopefully I can find the quickest way to artificially "wear in" new MX switches.

I think my unshaved KBT Pure switches may finally be getting smooth after almost a year of daily use (at least the E, T and spacebar switches ). Number row are still "scratchy"... sigh. If my new switches feel better I will shave the sliders in most of my old switches.

If you have can work out which of your switches are the worst offenders, you can put them in order of use (SPC e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w ENT b , . v k - " _ ' x ) ( ; 0 j 1 q = 2 : z / * ! ? $ 3 5 > { } 4 9 [ ] 8 6 7 \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~) so that the most used keys have the scratchiest switches and will wear the quickest.

[berserkfan]

If you have can work out which of your switches are the worst offenders, you can put them in order of use (SPC e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w ENT b , . v k - " _ ' x ) ( ; 0 j 1 q = 2 : z / * ! ? $ 3 5 > { } 4 9 [ ] 8 6 7 \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~) so that the most used keys have the scratchiest switches and will wear the quickest.

OK, OObly, how do you know this? Is there some research about which keys are used more? Also be aware that this may not hold true of different languages.

[oneproduct]

Of course there is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_frequencies_of_letters_in_the_English_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_frequencies_of_letters_in_other_languages

[ideus]

Of course there is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_frequencies_of_letters_in_the_English_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency#Relative_frequencies_of_letters_in_other_languages

This is interesting, it may be used to configure a custom layout, or to test the current layout available to see how they translate into moves of the fingers.

[oneproduct]

If by "may be used" you mean "has been used for a long time already" then yes, you are correct.

Many of the different keyboard layouts that exist used this kind of statistical data to influence their layouts.

[Oobly]

 As those above have mentioned, it's something I came across while researching for designing a layout for my ergo board. This article has some useful lists: http://m****ens.me/typing/letter_frequency.html

Interestingly enough, my latest project switches that I shaved do seem to be perceptibly smoother than the ones in my KBT Pure, although since it's a rather flexible PCB mount board without a case and my Pure has a plate and aluminium case, it's hard to be absolutely certain.

[chuckster]

So, if one were to want SA profile caps, would Reds not be viable? Would Blacks be better?

[swill]

So, if one were to want SA profile caps, would Reds not be viable? Would Blacks be better?

It doesn't make that much of a difference. They are only slightly heavier. I think reds would be fine. Never tested though.

The reason clears are tricky with light springs is because it has to reset over a big bump. With reds you should have no problems.

[GSimon]

Reds are fine, if there is a weight difference I don't find it noticeable.

[Oobly]

So, if one were to want SA profile caps, would Reds not be viable? Would Blacks be better?

I find Browns to feel somewhat... odd with SA caps on. It could just be that I'm so used to ErgoClears now, but the Browns I have seem to feel better with slightly lighter caps (like the medium thickness PBT and POM Keycool caps). I tried SA caps on some Blacks with different springs in (Brown, 62g, Clear, Black) and felt like 62g was the best spring for linears with SA caps for the same reason. It's likely just a personal taste thing, they work just fine and are perfectly viable, but somehow the lighter springs with SA caps don't quite feel right to me. That said, stock Black springs feel too hard for me, so.... Not very useful info I suppose, sorry.

[Data]

I'm using Nuclear Data on MX Browns right now with no problems.

[Oobly]

I'm using Nuclear Data on MX Browns right now with no problems.

There's no actual problem with SA on Browns (or Reds) as such, they just feel odd to me. I feel that SA works best on Clears and Blacks, especially with 62g springs on both, but it's a personal taste thing I guess.