Key-bored

[xsphat]

Now that my collection is gone and shipped out to eager eBayers and Geekhackers, what else is there to do? I have the Topre 86U at home and an Alps slim line (crap) keyboard at work, and they are both good keyboards for their usage, but considering the roads I've traveled, I feel like it's not enough. I think I need a project keyboard and a keyboard only for writing.

I'd like to remain faithful to Topre for my writing needs, so that's not what I'm concerned about.

That leaves the project keyboard.

What should I do? I'd like to do some sort of Alps keyboard mod, maybe something in blue and pink sliders on the same keyboard, but what should I use as a base? I am really into the layout of the Torpe 86 so that would be my first choice, but I would be good with an Apple Adjustable or an SMK85 for this mod. I don't know what to do, so leave me some suggestions, but mind you — I'm no Sandy, Chloe, lowpoly or anyone else like that. I can swap switches with the tool Sandy and Lam47 gave me (thanks to both of you, BTW ), I have a guy who can do some soldering, and my brothers can help me with light case modding, but that is about it.

So I guess I need help, or at least some direction. What do you think I should do?

[wellington1869]

How about an ABS M1 (which is basically a filco), pull out the black alps and put in what you want...

[xsphat]

Number pad.

[wellington1869]

ah.  
What are you leaning towards?

how about one of those alps minitouch deals?

[xsphat]

An Apple Adjustable or SMK85. I would go for the Filco Zero mini, but they are a bit too popular.

[wellington1869]

smk85's are prolly cheapest (used ones from dsi on ebay go for about 50 or so). I rather liked mine.  
Never seen an apple adjustable...

[xsphat]

Never seen an apple adjustable...

I had one, and the real Alps switches sucked real (not simplified or fake) bad.

I had an SMK85 and I loved it.

[megarat]

but they are a bit too popular.

Ah, a kindred spirit.

[xsphat]

The Filco tenkeyless series is really cool, but Pook has what, 12 of them now? Lots of other members have them as well, one poster already has one with blue Alps switches, so what's the point? I think if I go with the SMK85 it would be better because all anyone here has done with those keyboards has been return them. I liked mine, elmomax liked her's, but I think we are the only ones on here who had one they liked.

[iMav]

One thing I'd like you (or another Topre Realforce 86 owner) to do is show us some pics of of the guts of your keyboard.  Do the springs look any different (since there is significant force difference between keys)?

[sandy55]

I think you'd better exclude Apple adjustable. It will be a big project like Dougy did before.

If switches on SMK85 are mounted on steel face plate, then you'd better to practice de-soldering/soldering with a junk alps board.  I think you have an Apple Extended ( M0115).
It will be a good donor for switches and at the same time it will be a good test bench practicing de-soldering. You are allowed to break 20 switches. You can learn de-soldering with those 20 switches and you will still have 85 modules with which you can replace all keys on SMK85.

One thing I can't understand is your preference of alps switch.
You wrote
 " from my Apple with orange sliders, which are a little clickier than the blacks".
I don't understand how you feel orange is clikier than blacks on SMK85.   "blacks" in that sentence means those on Dell AT-101?  Or does SMK85 use same Real blacks like Dell AT-101?
If SMK85 has real ALPS Blacks, you can just re-plant stems, springs, leaves and top casings from any of real alps ( except top casings from Green or Yellow ), no soldering required.

Simple and easy way is alps mini touch as wellington pointed. If the price is reasonable.  do you know how much is it, wellington?

[wellington1869]

 alps mini touch as wellington pointed. If the price is reasonable.  do you know how much is it, wellington?

Not sure. The northgate repair website has it for sale. I think a while back I asked them how much it was, IIRC it was around $70 I think.

[xsphat]

One thing I can't understand is your preference of alps switch.
You wrote
 " from my Apple with orange sliders, which are a little clickier than the blacks".
I don't understand how you feel orange is clikier than blacks on SMK85.   "blacks" in that sentence means those on Dell AT-101?  Or does SMK85 use same Real blacks like Dell AT-101?

Well Sandy, I was wrong. Check out the date on that thread — I've come a long way since 2007. I used to think clicky keyboards were simply loud keyboards. Now I know what they are. The orange and black stem Alps switches are not clicky. They are tactile, and for whatever reason, I remember liking the orange Alps more.

And I have long since gotten rid of that Apple keyboard, as well as the rest of my collection, so I'm going to have to start from scratch for this project.

And that mini touch 'board is nice and all, but I couldn't use it because of the crappy placement of the tilda and forward delete keys. I use both quite a bit, so I pay attention to where they are a keyboard. That is also why I will never own a Deck 82 — a nice keyboard to be sure, but the layout would make me jump off a bridge.

Sandy, I don't think the SMK85 has real Alps, and I don't think there is a steel plate in there (or is there, Welly?).

Another thing for Sandy — what about that Filco Zero with blue Alps sliders? The Filco comes with XM fake Alps and whoever did that mod just swapped out the top of the switch modules, right? If the SMK85 has Strong Man Alps switches, would I be able to drop in real Alps white, blue, orange or pink stem switches?

[xsphat]

One thing I'd like you (or another Topre Realforce 86 owner) to do is show us some pics of of the guts of your keyboard.  Do the springs look any different (since there is significant force difference between keys)?

I repeat — I own ONE good keyboard (and I have no luck). Sorry man, I won't do this until I have enough money in the bank to buy another Topre 86 and have another good keyboard around.

[lowpoly]

Replace switches in the Apple Adjustable with original clicky Alps. You can do this yourself. Then do the HHKB lite 2 controller mod so you don't need the function key extension. Your soldering guy might have to help you here. There were also some mild case mods to fit the USB hub.

[xsphat]

Replace switches in the Apple Adjustable with original clicky Alps. You can do this yourself. Then do the HHKB lite 2 controller mod so you don't need the function key extension. Your soldering guy might have to help you here. There were also some mild case mods to fit the USB hub.

That would be pretty cool, but I don't know about the HHKB controller mod — sounds a little hard.

[lowpoly]

The hard part would be deciphering the HHKB lite matrix. I didn't really think about that before. You should be able to get the info from him. If you can't get it, it is probably not what you want for now.

[dougy]

If you went with the Apple adjustable and an emate all you would need to worry about would be changing out the switches, and the controller aspect was the more extensive part of my mod. I redid the AAK numeric keypad, substituting the switches only and found that an easy fix.  When you mention the orange sliders are you talking about the switches from the IIgs keyboard? I could take a peak and see if they are pin compatible with the soft Alps if you like. Thinking of that how about the IIgs keyboard with the numeric keypad hacked off the end. Very compact with a nice feel.....

[sandy55]

Apple Adujstable doesn't have a (steel) face plate.  Switches are basically for PCB mounting and are tied to PCB with a staple (ground pins).  Even if signal pins are compatible with Bigfoot class alps, using Big foot class switches on the AAK PCB is not recommended. the modded board will loose durability.  IIgs or M0116 would be far better. ( BTW, I like orange alps. )

There is no standard layout among compact keyboards( I mean alps mini touch like keyboard, not tenless ). each compact keyboard uses it's own layout for DEL, INS, BS, arrow keys and such.
Xsphat, if you are thinking about using alps Bigfoot class switches, just pick up any compact keyboard with a steel face plate with which you can accept key layout.    

re;Filco Zero with blue Alps sliders
Billm did de-solder whole xm modules and did solder blue alpss. You can't use top casing of real alps onto base assem of xm seitches.  Hence you can't drop a top assem of any of real alps onto base of xm used on Zero tenless.  so why do you hesitate soldering.  I'm not a handy man as you can see pictures in my mod pages. Billm also admitted he is not. But both of us did it.
All you need is faith that you can.  Yes. You can. ( wow, this is the phrase I wanted to use in lal's "Wyse 840358-01 black Cherry w/o cable" thread. )

[lal]

[... being afraid of soldering ...]
All you need is faith that you can.  Yes. You can. ( wow, this is the phrase I wanted to use in lal's "Wyse 840358-01 black Cherry w/o cable" thread. )

And you know what?  I did really buy a couple of new black Cherry switches. As if I had not enough other work to do. I have done some soldering before, mostly custom serial and audio cables. And while I think I *may* be able to replace the switches and maybe even end up with a still working keyboard, I would appreciate some kind of tutorial. So if anyone wants to step up... I would be interested in temperatures, exactly where to place the solder iron tip, for how long et cetera. I'm a bit afraid of damaging the PCB or melting the switch housing. I have done things like that before, you know.

[sandy55]

And you know what?  I did really buy a couple of new black Cherry switches.[

Oh, boy. I PMed you, you know.

I would appreciate some kind of tutorial....

Please, Chloe, Dougy or Lowpoly...

[lal]

Oh, boy. I PMed you, you know.

I know I know, and it has been much appreciated.  Somehow I added the switches to my shopping cart when I was ordering the "lens remover".

I think a switch de-/soldering tutorial would be beneficial not just for me alone. Would be a great addition to the wiki. Anyone?

[xsphat]

I think a switch de-/soldering tutorial would be beneficial not just for me alone. Would be a great addition to the wiki. Anyone?

Yes, I'd use it too.

[lam47]

I would be happy to talk you though it. Soldering is all I do all day
What kind of iron do you have? What wattage is it?

you will need some flux paste and a de soldering braid (or pump, I have had no luck with the pumps though. If you get stuck I can post you enough flux de soldering braid for a keyboard switch swap.

If the iron is hot you should not have to hold it in place for more than a second or two at the most. If you need to hold it any longer its either not hot enough or its too underpowered for the job. you dont want a tip any bigger than 2 or 3 mm.
I tend to use a 2mm chisel bit for almost everything.
Only when doing tiny traces and chips in consoles etc do you need the pin sharp tips.

If you have any questions I would be happy to help.
Do you have a chat program like skype? I wont talk over the mic though as Im too shy

[lam47]

I will make one if nobody else wants to jump on it?

[lowpoly]

I couldn't really solder before I started on my project boards.

Bought a solder station where you can control the temperature. And a desolder pump.

I try to start with lower temperatures but if that doesn't work I just crank it up and try not to overheat things, i.e. be quick.

[lal]

Sorry for the thread-jacking, xsphat

Thanks to all for the informations so far! I have a *very* cheap solder station and a desolder pump.  Guess I'll have to get some desolder braid, too. Thanks for the kind offer, lam, this stuff is readily available for cheap here. Desoldering should be no problem.

What I imagine not being so easy is soldering the new switches. When the pins are sticking through the hole in the PCB, where do I place the iron and where the solder?

I'll not do it this weekend anyway. And I usually don't have any messaging apps installed because they're constantly distracting me from more important things

[dougy]

Sounds like you have all the tools. What I'd do is
1) fit the switch in dry, make sure its firmly bedded.
2) place the board upside down on a towel and put a nice heavy book to hold it in place, maybe one on each end if you are working near the center
3) "wet" the iron tip with solder and wipe it off with a damp rag or sponge
4) place the tip touching both the solder donut and the switch prong
5) touch the solder to the iron tip and then immediately move the solder to touch the prong, the donut and the tip
6) pull the solder away and watch the solder as it sags from a droplet to a flow
7) clean up with some iso alcohol
Damn that sounds much harder than it really is.

[wellington1869]

I think soldering is one of those things, like bicycle riding, that you need someone there in person to show you the first time, cant really learn it from a book I think. There must at the very least be some youtube videos on how to solder?

[itlnstln]

You can always start on broken electronics like an old clock radio, perhaps.  You could try unsoldering/resoldering components on that until you feel comfortable, and you can test your skillz by seeing if the device still works when you resolder a component.  Like Wellington said, it's like riding a bike.  Once you get the feel and the technique down, you will find that soldering might even be easier than replacing switch internals.

[lam47]

Sounds like you have all the tools. What I'd do is
1) fit the switch in dry, make sure its firmly bedded.
1 1/2) Dab a little flux paste onto the pin and the hole.
2) place the board upside down on a towel and put a nice heavy book to hold it in place, maybe one on each end if you are working near the center
3) "wet" the iron tip with solder and wipe it off with a damp rag or sponge
4) place the tip touching both the solder donut and the switch prong
5) touch the solder to the iron tip and then immediately move the solder to touch the prong, the donut and the tip
6) pull the solder away and watch the solder as it sags from a droplet to a flow
7) clean up with some iso alcohol
Damn that sounds much harder than it really is.

Just added a step to dougys process otherwise its exactly what I do.
Some people use solder with flux in but for a good clean joint its best to use some paste.

Unless the switches and board have solder on already then you dont need it as the solder will just flow together.

Hope you don't mind dougy

[xsphat]

You can always start on broken electronics like an old clock radio, perhaps.

Good advice. (I fixed your typos)

[itlnstln]

Good advice. (I fixed your typos)

Wow, I had to go back and edit my post it was so bad.  WTF was a "/" doing in the middle of that sentence?

[dougy]

The only trouble with practicing on older electronics is the quality of the solder. You get used to how nice it flowed and wetted then when you use the new lead free stuff you get frustrated.

lam what do you use for flux? I've got industrial fluxes for plumbing and architectural sheet metal, but nothing that's labeled "electronic" is is safe to use like the sheet metal tinning flux?

[lam47]

Plumbing flux is fine yeah. Its the same stuff.
If used sparingly it really helps the solder to flow where you want it too without having to linger with the iron.
I have had to do a couple of jobs without on PCBs and the amount of traces I lifted from over heating is not funny.
I wont solder anything without flux any more.

The only thing to remember is to clean up after with a cotton swab (Q tip) as on tiny close together solder points the flux can bridge connections.

(did you get the paypal OK?)

[billm]

That is also why I will never own a Deck 82 — a nice keyboard to be sure, but the layout would make me jump off a bridge.

Another thing for Sandy — what about that Filco Zero with blue Alps sliders? The Filco comes with XM fake Alps and whoever did that mod just swapped out the top of the switch modules, right? If the SMK85 has Strong Man Alps switches, would I be able to drop in real Alps white, blue, orange or pink stem switches?

The tilde key placement on the Deck, is in fact awful. What were they thinking? I've managed to get something workable going on mine using a utility called KeyRemap4macbook. This allows me to map swap the tilde and command keys. The tilde ends up in the top right corner, which still isn't right but it'll do. The command key is left of the spacebar where it belongs. You can even get mac keycaps from deck so it looks right. I also use a utility called sleepwatcher that checks for the presence of the keyboard and does the correct mappings for the keyboard present when the machine wakes up.  The end result is pretty seamless.

On another note, with the Filco Zero blue ALPS mod I re-soldered all the switches, I didn't just swap the tops and internals. That won't work between real & fake. It really wasn't that hard. In fact I'd venture to guess time spent wouldn't be that much more than swapping the internals.

[lam47]

does the sleep watcher thing switch layouts based on the controller in each keyboard?
Does it work if you just pull one out and stick another in.

AAAAAannd what do you guys use tilde for? I don't think I have ever used it.
Is it for coding etc?

[bhtooefr]

Tilde is often used for Unix paths - ~ is treated the same as /home/$USER on most systems.

[lam47]

Well that will save me some time! thanks man

[xsphat]

Tilde is used in OSX in the app switcher program. That is why I use it.

And Billm, thanks for the KeyRemap4Macbook thing, I have been looking for an app that will let me remap Japanese keyboards. I was planning to start looking for one tonight in fact, and that program does. You're a lifesaver, thanks!

[sandy55]

Alt + Tilde kicks on/off Japanese IME when we use 101 US keyboard on Windows. With that combination of keys, we, Japanese, switch Japanese mode to English mode and vice versa.

When 106 JP keyboard driver is selected ( for 101 US board or JP keyboard), single hit of a key located at Tilde position works same.

[cb951303]

what about designing our own 'geekhack' keyboard? I know how the electronics of a keyboard works, I have mcu programming exp. and I'm a mechanical engineering student so I can use CADs, wanna help?

[xsphat]

Billm, you've made a dream come true for me! KeyRemap4Macbook let's me use the Windows contextual menu key for the first time! It now reads as Option, so on my Topre 86, I have three modifier keys on on both sides of the space bar. It operates just like a Mac keyboard. I f*cking love it. You just fixed the one thing this keyboard was lacking. As ITln would say, Strong! Thanks a million (or two).

[dlarellano]

The tilde key placement on the Deck, is in fact awful. What were they thinking? I've managed to get something workable going on mine using a utility called KeyRemap4macbook. This allows me to map swap the tilde and command keys. The tilde ends up in the top right corner, which still isn't right but it'll do. The command key is left of the spacebar where it belongs. You can even get mac keycaps from deck so it looks right. I also use a utility called sleepwatcher that checks for the presence of the keyboard and does the correct mappings for the keyboard present when the machine wakes up.  The end result is pretty seamless.

Have you tried futzing around with Ukelele? I'd be pissed off if CMD-~ became a two-handed key binding. I thought Deck sold Mac versions of the 82? Do they just replace alt with option and the top-right Windows logo with a Command key?

[dlarellano]

Mod idea for xsphat. Not what you're looking for, I know. But it looks like a fun project.

[billm]

does the sleep watcher thing switch layouts based on the controller in each keyboard?
Does it work if you just pull one out and stick another in.

AAAAAannd what do you guys use tilde for? I don't think I have ever used it.
Is it for coding etc?

tilde/backtick is used a lot in unix environments. As somebody else mentioned, tilde is a shortcut to your homedir. Backticks are used to capture the output of some arbitrary command and use it as an argument to another command.

Here's how I use sleepwatcher:

I have files named .sleep and .wakeup in my home directory. The .sleep file isn't that interesting, but here's the .wakeup file:

Code: [Select]

#!/bin/bash

# Deck 82 Key
if  `/usr/sbin/ioreg |grep -q "Deck.*registered\, matched"`
        then
        /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/sysctl -w keyremap4macbook.remap.backquote2commandL=1
        /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/sysctl -w keyremap4macbook.remap.commandL2backquote=1

# Model M with USB adapter
elif `/usr/sbin/ioreg |grep -q "USBPS2.*registered\, matched"`
        then
        /usr/bin/osascript /Users/billm/bin/remap-no_win_key.scpt

# The Filco shows up as a generic USB Keyboard
elif `/usr/sbin/ioreg |grep -q "USB\ Keyboard.*registered\, matched"`
        then
        /usr/bin/osascript /Users/billm/bin/remap-win_key.scpt

else
        /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/sysctl -w keyremap4macbook.remap.backquote2commandL=0
        /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/sysctl -w keyremap4macbook.remap.commandL2backquote=0
        /usr/bin/osascript /Users/billm/bin/remap-reset_all.scpt

fi
So... in the first case I'm using keyremap4macbook but in the other 2 cases I'm using an apple script to do the remapping. I don't remember why but I had a reason at the time .

Basically the if statement is checking for the presence of a particular keyboard using ioreg every time the system wakes up, and then doing the appropriate mapping. If there are no USB keyboards found it resets the default mapping for the laptop keyboard (except I always swap ctrl/caps lock).

Occassionally when  I dock the system it fails to find the external keyboard, I'm not sure why but it seems like a timing issue. In those rare cases (like 1 in 100 times) I just run the .wakup script again by hand and it works.

[xsphat]

That's wierd. I have had that problem only with the DSI SMK88. Once every month about it would do that. It's now my wife's keyboard and the problem persists (it has happened on 4 Macs) so that has to be a problem with the keyboard itself.

[billm]

Have you tried futzing around with Ukelele? I'd be pissed off if CMD-~ became a two-handed key binding. I thought Deck sold Mac versions of the 82? Do they just replace alt with option and the top-right Windows logo with a Command key?

I did try Ukelele a while back. Why it didn't work for the Deck is that it wouldn't let me remap modifier keys. I could have swapped say... Q and ~ but not command and tilde.

There is no Mac version of the Deck 82. They just sell a mac keycaps kit.

[xsphat]

Billm, KeyRemap4macbook is the best remapper for Mac I have ever used. There are so many options, but I only use one.

[billm]

Billm, KeyRemap4macbook is the best remapper for Mac I have ever used. There are so many options, but I only use one.

It's pretty cool eh? I am not using it to its full ability either. I basically figured out how to get it to do what I needed to do and haven't done much else with it besides that. It blows doublecommand out of the water though.

Also it didn't do the command/tilde swap initially so I downloaded the source and patched it and then sent the patch to the guy and he incorporated it back into the next rev. I mention this not to brag about what a hot **** C coder I am (because I am not), but because the code is super straightforward and really  easy to modify, thus opening up all sorts of possibilities going forward. If there's something you want it to do that it doesn't currently do, it's probably a pretty easy hack.