Deciding which keyboard to pick...

[AvenZerg]

Hello guys!

First and foremost, i would like to introduce myself.. i am AvenZerg an avid Starcraft 2 player and i think you can guess which race i play..
Aaaanyways i just recently joined the community (altho i have been in the shadows lurking the forum for some time now) in hopes i could get some help with a little decision making problem i've been having.

Let me get straight to it.

I have been using a cheap old rubber dome membrane keyboard (HP keyboard) for aeons now and it has served me well, until one day... i spilled my whole mug of coffee over it and some keys stopped working.
I've tried a few other "high end gaming" keyboards *cough* logitech G15 *cough* in the past but i always returned to my old trusty HP keyboard. And even tho it was a cheap rubber dome keyboard it felt very high quality..


Before i started looking for a new keyboard i had this list of requirements in mind;

- Able to double/press keys with the least ammount of effort.
- The keys must feel high quality and "grippy"
- I like small/compact keyboards
- Some form of NKRO or anti-ghosting (basically a keyboard that can press as much keys at once without conflict, would be nice)



I found these two keyboards after some searching on the net and i just can't make up my mind..


Noppoo Choc Mini    w/ Cherry MX Red Switches
PROS: F1/F12 are close to the numeric keys.. Function keys are relatively in good order..
CONS: I dislike the pom keycaps, i've heard they are kinda slippy..  and the key font is kinda vague/unclear..

KBC Poker    w/ Cherry MX Red Switches
PROS: i LOVE the compact style and the  high quality PBTkeys on it...
CONS: the function keys, F1/F12 keys are on top of numeric keys..


If you have read everything so far, i genuinely thank you for your time..
i would appreciate some advice and or suggestions for any other keyboard you might think would fit well to my criteria..

Thanks Alot!

[Quarzac]

I am a fan of Leopolds. I think one would suit you well. If not reds, go with browns or blacks. Probably not blacks if you're going for least amount of effort though. I don't recall if the tenkeylesses come in the red flavor, but I believe if they don't, they're supposed to later this month. You can buy them at http://www.elitekeyboards.com

[AvenZerg]

thanks alot for that suggestion!..
altho i forgot to mention i live in the netherlands and ordering through that website is expensive because the shipping alone costs $60 for some awkward reason.. 60 bucks for a 109 buck keyboard is a bit overkill lol.. xD
but i love that keyboard! i would probably wait for the Reds and buy it off some other site.. great suggestion tho! thanks alot.

[fuzzyx3000]

you could also consider the next batch of the cm storm quick fire rapids if the f1 keys being in their normal position isnt a problem. according to the people that have bought them already the shipping costs dont seem to be much an issue.

[Quarzac]

thanks alot for that suggestion!..
altho i forgot to mention i live in the netherlands and ordering through that website is expensive because the shipping alone costs $60 for some awkward reason.. 60 bucks for a 109 buck keyboard is a bit overkill lol.. xD
but i love that keyboard! i would probably wait for the Reds and buy it off some other site.. great suggestion tho! thanks alot.

Yeah... shipping can be a little absurd outside of the US. If you can't find it elsewhere, keep an eye on the classified here and at deskthority.net, which is basically Geekhack's European cousin. It may show up a little more reasonably. Flat-rate shipping out of the US with USPS runs around $40, so you may be able to get one for $120 shipped from someone here. They show up at $80 from time to time.

[Tony]

What's your options? Please include brand, switch and price. That'll be easier to decide.

[pitashen]

sorry, OP  but your fancy variable font size and multi color text  (plz don't do something like that again)  has prevented me from reading what seems to be some important information.

For mech board beginner:
Brand: Filco or leopold.
Switch: Red or Brown

you can't go wrong with any combo of those 4 variables.

[AvenZerg]

you could also consider the next batch of the cm storm quick fire rapids if the f1 keys being in their normal position isnt a problem. according to the people that have bought them already the shipping costs dont seem to be much an issue.

That keyboard seriously looks badass.. i love the fact it's tenkeyless and those F1 keys being in their default positions is fine.. (less adjusting for my finger muscle memory but i am a picky man.. i dislike the blues because they arent so good for double tapping.. the blacks seem to require too much force.. i would probably go with the browns as a second choice but the reds have my name written all on them ^^ i do have to say that keyboard is catching my attention as well.. *takes notes*

What's your options? Please include brand, switch and price. That'll be easier to decide.

basically Cherry MX Red (anything linear and light on the press is fine too)
anything around $150 and below
as compact/small as possible..
don't care about the brand..

thanks alot for the help btw.. appreciate it alot guys.

[AvenZerg]

sorry, OP  but your fancy variable font size and multi color text  (plz don't do something like that again)  has prevented me from reading what seems to be some important information.

For mech board beginner:
Brand: Filco or leopold.
Switch: Red or Brown

you can't go wrong with any combo of those 4 variables.

i guess you are right those colors do seem to distract a bit, i edited the post =)
i will keep those 4 variables in mind, thanks for the help.

[LostArk]

AvenZerg,

I promise you will prefer browns over reds. I am an avid SC2 player, and I've played with every switch type except clear. In order to be sure a key has registered while using reds, you really need to bottom out. Because of this, reds seem heavier than browns at high APM since you're applying maximum actuation force the entire keystroke. Browns have a feel most similar to rubber dome of any mechanical switch.

Personally I think the mechanical keyboard rage in the SC2 community is a bit of a fad, as I don't see any real benefit over rubber dome other than durability / consistency. Your APM won't increase just from switching to a mechanical. That said they do feel nicer and I do use one, a Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja Tenkeyless (brown), which I recommend highly. As a cheaper alternative I'd go with a Leopold Otaku Tenkeyless (brown).

[AvenZerg]

AvenZerg,

I promise you will prefer browns over reds. I am an avid SC2 player, and I've played with every switch type except clear. In order to be sure a key has registered while using reds, you really need to bottom out. Because of this, reds seem heavier than browns at high APM since you're applying maximum actuation force the entire keystroke. Browns have a feel most similar to rubber dome of any mechanical switch.

Personally I think the mechanical keyboard rage in the SC2 community is a bit of a fad, as I don't see any real benefit over rubber dome other than durability / consistency. Your APM won't increase just from switching to a mechanical. That said they do feel nicer and I do use one, a Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja Tenkeyless (brown), which I recommend highly. As a cheaper alternative I'd go with a Leopold Otaku Tenkeyless (brown).

you are making it even harder for me now >_<
i am aware my APM won't increase but that really speaks for itself.. APM has nothing to do with the keyboard xD
i am looking for a keyboard that i can just abuse playing SC2 in my free time.. and in the office i work... i have ALOT of free time, believe it or not..
the browns are harder to double/press i've read somewhere.. that's really the only reason i want a linear switch for gaming..

[LostArk]

In my experience the browns are definitely easier to double tap than reds, no idea how someone could think the opposite. This goes to show how much personal preference comes into play when deciding on a switch. I've spent hours playing SC2 on every type of switch, and browns were the most responsive and caused no fatigue even after incredibly long gaming sessions (12-14 hours). This could not be said of the other switch types (reds and blacks caused cramping, blues felt unresponsive to spamming).

Food for thought:

Browns have an actuation force of 45g which sharply increases to 55g at the tactile bump, then drops off again.

Reds have an actuation force of 45g the entire keystroke.

On paper it seems like Reds are the lightest switch, but in practice browns are the lightest. They are also the easiest to double tap. I'm not sure about the physics / physiology of it, I just know from personal experience. Go with browns.

[popol]

Spoted. Choose a big ass enter key keyboard. Cheers.

[kraise]

As someone who owns a Filco with Cherry MX Reds and plays SC2 on occasion, I must say it is probably not the best choice if you haven't actually tried them yourself or haven't played with any other switches. Also, if you plan on using it for work/typing I don't really recommend it since it's very light with no tactile feedback so you may find yourself bottoming out often.

LostArk brings up some very good points with experience and I do think Browns would be the better switch to consider for SC2 and your needs. In my opinion, Red switches are much better suited for FPS games but then again I haven't played very many games recently with my Filco.

[enoy21]

I'm in much of the same boat, only I don't mind bottoming out.  I find the sound rather appealing and based on rubber domes , I bottom out anyway with these bad boys. I tend to play alot of FPS , so  I am thinking the reds are the way to go. To be honest though , I don't have a huge problem with gaming on Blues but I don't mind the idea of slightly more "percieved" force requirement. Typing is going to probably be the biggest concern for me though. I am not a huge fan of the very noticeable click/tactility of the blues when gaming. So the RED/Brown debate is a big one for me. Having not spend any real time with either to see how I feel about gaming on them.

On one hand I hear the browns feel almost linear due to the minuteness of the tactility.  
On the other hand, I imagine in FPS the Linear would feel the best.  
On the third hand , I like blues for typing
On the fourth hand Browns in TKL are easier to get but more expensive because I would want a Filco
On the Third leg , The Elitist Ego maniac in me wants the rare red cherries just to say I have them.

[AvenZerg]

In my experience the browns are definitely easier to double tap than reds, no idea how someone could think the opposite. This goes to show how much personal preference comes into play when deciding on a switch. I've spent hours playing SC2 on every type of switch, and browns were the most responsive and caused no fatigue even after incredibly long gaming sessions (12-14 hours). This could not be said of the other switch types (reds and blacks caused cramping, blues felt unresponsive to spamming).

Food for thought:

Browns have an actuation force of 45g which sharply increases to 55g at the tactile bump, then drops off again.

Reds have an actuation force of 45g the entire keystroke.

On paper it seems like Reds are the lightest switch, but in practice browns are the lightest. They are also the easiest to double tap. I'm not sure about the physics / physiology of it, I just know from personal experience. Go with browns.

this is the information i got on overclock.net :

Cherry MX Brown switches are considered a middle ground between typing and "gaming" switches. They have a light, tactile feel half way through the key press that lets you know the switch has activated. This gives you an indication of when you can release the switch. The switch is considered a middle ground because the reset point & actuation point are close enough together than you can "float" at that point, enabling you to double tap faster.

would you say you have the exact same experience with the double tapping? if this is the case i am probably going for browns aswell.. thanks alot for helping me out here btw.. appreciate it alot mate, take care!

[Playtrumpet]

With intense gaming, you'll likely be bottoming out. The tactile bump on browns is nice, but if you bottom out all the time, eventually you won't even notice it's there. Hard decision.

[enoy21]

Yeah and with FPS you are pretty much pressing and holding at the bottom out stage as it's not super fast rapid clicks.    Again , typing on the reds vs typing on the browns is one of my biggest questions at this point.

As for that hovering.... Keep in mind that unless you have done it in the past, in Rubber domes you currently are already bottoming out unless you are hovering just above the bottom out stage. But domes have a built in slight tactility that makes that very hard.    If I was banging the same key repeatedly , I would likely prefer some feedback with something like browns.

[AvenZerg]

Yeah and with FPS you are pretty much pressing and holding at the bottom out stage as it's not super fast rapid clicks.    Again , typing on the reds vs typing on the browns is one of my biggest questions at this point.

As for that hovering.... Keep in mind that unless you have done it in the past, in Rubber domes you currently are already bottoming out unless you are hovering just above the bottom out stage. But domes have a built in slight tactility that makes that very hard.    If I was banging the same key repeatedly , I would likely prefer some feedback with something like browns.

that is EXACTLY how i feel with rubber domes.. it feels as if it's holding me back when i try to switch between hatcheries fast.. because i have to bottom out with rubber domes anyways.
Altho the type of rubber dome keyboard i used to have was very light on the touch i still felt as if i was constrained in my selecting speed.. my APM was around 200/250 (before the patch) in the late game.. and now that i'm using a different crappy $10 buck rubber dome as a temporary replacement i just can't get used to it.. double tapping for me is just crucial..

PS: i don't play FPS that much at all.. i'm more of a strategy gamer..

(love your avatar btw)

[enoy21]

Yeah ,  I'm still torn on which type of switch I want.  Too bad none of the local shops carry them to allow for walk up testing.  


Thanks on the Avatar, I generally use this one for Linux forums , but then realized just how fitting it is here.   lol

[AvenZerg]

Yeah ,  I'm still torn on which type of switch I want.  Too bad none of the local shops carry them to allow for walk up testing.  


Thanks on the Avatar, I generally use this one for Linux forums , but then realized just how fitting it is here.   lol

i remember like 10-15 years ago my father used to have an old IBM keyboard that was a joy to type on, i'm pretty sure it had a buckling spring mechanism.. which is roughly comparable with the Cherry MX blue switches..
if you are looking for a keyboard strictly for typing i would go for cherry mx blue or brown.. (if noise isn't a problem i would definitely go blue)

for gaming i would go brown or red.. unfortunately i am also indecisive about which color would fit me, so we are on the same boat lol..

[enoy21]

I don't suppose I would be marrying either one and could always sell if I don't like.

[AvenZerg]

ROFL true..

[elbowglue]

In terms of SC2 playing, I have found my ranking of best to worst cherry switch has been:

Cherry blue
Cherry brown
Cherry red
Cherry black.

Buckling springs falls somewhere below cherry blues in my liking for RTS games.

The audible click you get from the cherry blues is really useful in games like Sc2.  It's worlds better than cherry red for RTS games.  I also play zerg almost exclusively, you can look me up on sc2 ranks, elbowglue #640.

My current daily driver is the Choc Mini Cherry blue.  I had a small issue with occsional doubleclicks when I hit a button once, but shooting some compressed air into the switch fixed that problem.  (Looks like it was dust causing the problem)

Another keyboard I would highly recommend is a tenkeyless like filco tenkeleyess or leopold, that would be totally standard layout.

For pure typing purposes I prefer cherry brown or red however. (MUST be PCB mounted for me)

[enoy21]

So you actually like Reds for typing ?  That's my biggest question at this point is how I would like Reds for typing as I know it would be fine for FPS.

[elbowglue]

Yeah, PCB mounted reds are nice for typing, very similar to browns.  I prefer browns over reds in terms of typing.

[ITzNybble]

My advice for typing would be blues but since you play SC2 a massive button smasher let me say this. If you have never used a mechanical keyboard, then any switch is gonna feel better typing than any rubber dome. So Just pick the switch you want for gaming and you will learn to type on that switch and never look back! You are not missing out on something if you have never tried it. maybe not the best philosophy but hell.. it works!

[pitashen]

Brown is usually the safest bet if u are in absolute confusion.

[enoy21]

Ok , You guys just decided me confirmed for Reds.  I already have a blue, so if my FPS gaming wanes a bit or I plan to do more typing than gaming , I can always switch it back out.    So I am going for a TKL in Reds.    If I don't like , then you guys will likely see it in the Classifieds section within the next month or so.  

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Urglifast]

I play with browns and i like them.  i've played with blues and they're not bad.  definitely wouldn't like playing with linear switches though, i like the tactile feedback

[LostArk]

that is EXACTLY how i feel with rubber domes.. it feels as if it's holding me back when i try to switch between hatcheries fast.. because i have to bottom out with rubber domes anyways.

What exactly do you mean by this? What about rubber domes is holding you back? Personally, I would rather play on rubber domes than cherry reds.

Keep in mind the tactile bump of browns is so light they almost feel linear at high apm, and lighter even than reds.

There is truth to what curro123083 said. You will adjust to whatever switch you choose, and with no frame of reference, won't be missing anything.

For proof of this, consider that Idra uses cherry blacks, the worst switch for SC2. Would using browns make him a better player? MAYBE! TROLOLOL

[Clickey]

You can order from http://www.keyboardco.com/ if you are in Europe, they have a lot more selection than EK anyway. I play sc2 with ergo clears, but I think it is just preference between blues, browns, reds, and ergo clear. As long as they are soft to press, it is just a question of what kind of feedback you want from the keypress.

[AvenZerg]

What exactly do you mean by this? What about rubber domes is holding you back? Personally, I would rather play on rubber domes than cherry reds.

Keep in mind the tactile bump of browns is so light they almost feel linear at high apm, and lighter even than reds.

There is truth to what curro123083 said. You will adjust to whatever switch you choose, and with no frame of reference, won't be missing anything.

For proof of this, consider that Idra uses cherry blacks, the worst switch for SC2. Would using browns make him a better player? MAYBE! TROLOLOL

you can't really double tap fast (relatively speaking) with rubber domes because you have to almost completely release the key as oppose to red switches.. and who said blacks are the worst for starcraft 2? i think linear switches are good for sc2 because you don't have to release the key completely enabling you to double tap faster.. just a gut feeling tho.. but since you have experience you might be right i dunno.

PS: not trying to sound like a ****, i really appreciate your feedback i really do.. and i love the fact you seem convinced about browns being better..

[duranzo]

you can't really double tap fast (relatively speaking) with rubber domes because you have to almost completely release the key as oppose to red switches.. and who said blacks are the worst for starcraft 2? i think linear switches are good for sc2 because you don't have to release the key completely enabling you to double tap faster.. just a gut feeling tho.. but since you have experience you might be right i dunno..

i hope you are saying that i'll be FINE with my red cm storm i just purchased, as it is my first mech purchase and I too am an AVID SC2 die-hard, I really wanted the best switch possible.  As I kept seeing arguments from both camps, it made it very hard to decide between BROWN or RED.  As per the timing and availability, I choose to get the Red switch.  If anyone else with Red switch experience in sc2, I hope they could give me some fback on it's performance with SC2.  I been reading a lot of "Brown for SC2" here, and has given me a bit of buyers remorse sadly.

Any thoughts long time mech-RTS-fans, and yes this purchase is based soley on SC2 only.

[LostArk]

you can't really double tap fast (relatively speaking) with rubber domes because you have to almost completely release the key as oppose to red switches.. and who said blacks are the worst for starcraft 2? i think linear switches are good for sc2 because you don't have to release the key completely enabling you to double tap faster.. just a gut feeling tho.. but since you have experience you might be right i dunno.

PS: not trying to sound like a ****, i really appreciate your feedback i really do.. and i love the fact you seem convinced about browns being better..

You can theorycraft all day about the way you think a switch will feel, but at the end of the day you just have to try them. Double tapping is easier on browns because you can hover around the actuation point (tactile bump), i.e. you don't have to completely release the key. Really though, in the heat of battle you are gonna be mashing the keys and spamming anyway, in which case you will appreciate the subtle tactile feedback of browns, as opposed to having to bottom out to be certain a key has registered. For this reason browns will feel lighter than reds even though they technically aren't.

Linear switches are popular with FPS players for reasons I cannot comprehend because I don't play FPS. Linear switches are not the best switch for any other type of game, nor typing.

Best analogy I can think of is this: would you rather play Mortal Kombat with a D-pad or an analog stick? If you said D-pad, you'll prefer browns.

Honestly I think everyone who can't decide should just bite the bullet and buy both. Otherwise, the decision will haunt you.

[enoy21]

The biggest reason I think us FPS'rs prefer linear is the fact that we don't often tap the button and end up keeping it pressed to the bottom for seconds at a time.  We don't really want or need several taps in a second so the best feed back we have is that the button is fully depressed, Not actuated then released like in typing or RTS.

Having not played with linear yes, that's my theorycrafting. On my non PC based linear blacks I could totally see why that would be ideal for the smooth press for movement.

[AvenZerg]

You can theorycraft all day about the way you think a switch will feel, but at the end of the day you just have to try them. Double tapping is easier on browns because you can hover around the actuation point (tactile bump), i.e. you don't have to completely release the key. Really though, in the heat of battle you are gonna be mashing the keys and spamming anyway, in which case you will appreciate the subtle tactile feedback of browns, as opposed to having to bottom out to be certain a key has registered. For this reason browns will feel lighter than reds even though they technically aren't.

Linear switches are popular with FPS players for reasons I cannot comprehend because I don't play FPS. Linear switches are not the best switch for any other type of game, nor typing.

Best analogy I can think of is this: would you rather play Mortal Kombat with a D-pad or an analog stick? If you said D-pad, you'll prefer browns.

Honestly I think everyone who can't decide should just bite the bullet and buy both. Otherwise, the decision will haunt you.

you have convinced me sir.. cherry mx browns it is.

[Glockateer]

The reason I suggest browns is it is the lightest switch with a tactile bump. Hitting a key many times is easily felt (or learned) and makes spamming nice and accurate. Reds feel amazing but the spam is different since the only "tactile feel" you get is bottoming out. I still suggest trying an o-ring mod for SC2 players on either switch.

[AvenZerg]

yes i have actually read about those rings and i will incorporate them into certain keys so i have an extra indication of what button i just pressed.. i could see that working out pretty well.. thanks for the tip btw.