Author Topic: Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard  (Read 8417 times)

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Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 12:48:00 »
First some notes: I'm not posting a full review, since I just got it and won't have the time to build a converter for a while.  Also, I don't have a camera, so I'll just use a picture that I found.


Borrowed from: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/index.html


Construction, size and weight:
It is almost identical in size to the Model M mini: just a few millimeters larger in width and length.  Very similar height and vertical profile.  I think that the entire case is metal.  I weighed it at 4.8 pounds, compared to 4.0 for my mini.  It feels very solid and well-built.

Key feel:
I'm not an expert on the different types of switches, so I don't know exactly how to classify it.  There is no tactile bump.  It requires enough force to move that I wouldn't expect any accidental key presses, but once it starts to move, there is almost no resistance.  There is no mushy feeling, though.  It has a very shallow throw.

The keys themselves have an interesting shape.  They are noticeably slope down, instead of the slope coming from the way that the rows are mounted.  It doesn't really cause a difference in how it feels, though.



I can't give an opinion until I can convert it and give it a proper testing, but if I like it, then I am excited about being able to use Emacs with this, as well as creating all sorts of macros.  Most of the keys that are missing can be reassigned to what's available.  For example, the right-hand set of Symbol, Meta, Super and Hyper are the same layout as the arrow keys; the Symbol key is wider, but its alignment still feels just like the arrows.  It will be trivial to reassign the symbols to match my preference.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:01:11 by ed_ »

Offline rdjack21

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:18:31 »
Are the key caps cupped like the older boards? I've seen a few of those on Ebay in the past but never actually pulled the trigger and got one.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline dmw

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:22:01 »
Ha, I saw the 'rubout' key in the small image and thought it said 'reboot'!

Offline Mercen_505

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:26:54 »
AAAAAH!

I've been trying to get a Symbolics keyboard for the better portion of a year now!

It looks so lovely...

Offline timw4mail

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:30:36 »
Eh...the "Space Cadet" keyboard looks so much cooler.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline lowpoly

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:48:34 »
Congrats. I still have to get one of these too. Perfect match for my mug.



It should use NMB switches. It does not click, right?

Quote from: tim
Eh...the "Space Cadet" keyboard looks so much cooler.


There's nothing wrong with the design:


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Offline timw4mail

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:50:39 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114059



There's nothing wrong with the design:

Show Image

Not really, but there haven't been enough "Fun" keyboards.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:58:18 »
Quote from: rdjack21;114021
Are the key caps cupped like the older boards? I've seen a few of those on Ebay in the past but never actually pulled the trigger and got one.


Not really; the key cavities aren't much deeper than the average keyboard, but the sides of the keys are more noticeable than average and keep your fingers from wanting to slide off.  It's tough to explain, but they are not deep cups like the old style board.  They have a unique feeling that is one of my favorite things about the keyboard.

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:06:03 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114059
Congrats. I still have to get one of these too. Perfect match for my mug.

It should use NMB switches. It does not click, right?

I haven't opened it up yet or pulled off a key, but you are right that it does not click.

The size, shape and layout of the keyboard, and the feel of the keys are excellent.  The only thing wrong with it is that my favorite switch is the buckling spring, and this doesn't feel anything like it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:08:07 by ed_ »

Offline rdjack21

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:06:14 »
Quote from: webwit;114063
I'm still of the opinion that cupped keys are inferior and an outdated necessity from the times the keys needed to be hit in the center. If that is no longer the case, they just slow you down.

That may be true. I have not used a keyboard with cupped keys since the early 80's and what I remember of them is what makes me want some. I just liked the way they fit your finger. But it may be true that they will slow my typing down but then again maybe not, I tend to hit my keys pretty much dead center now even when typing fast.

EDIT: webwit hope you don't mind but I just could not resist any longer. I just had to use that "soft landing" t-shirt you did up.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:15:00 »
I just pulled off a key, and the switches are odd.

There is a rubber dome attached to the key, and the key holds the switch up; I don't know how that type of switch should be classified.  It's not mushy at all, though.  My best explanation would be something similar to a brown cherry without the bump.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:17:22 by ed_ »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #11 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:23:14 »
Quote from: ed_;114002
I'm not an expert on the different types of switches, so I don't know exactly how to classify it.  There is no tactile bump.  It requires enough force to move that I wouldn't expect any accidental key presses, but once it starts to move, there is almost no resistance.  There is no mushy feeling, though.  It has a very shallow throw.

Linear switches - one where there is a linear progression of force throughout the travel of the key (i.e. no sudden bump). They were standard issue for computer keyboards up until the 1980s when IBM, Alps, Cherry et al. started making tactile switches. The Cherry Blacks you may hear about around here are like a stiffer version of what you've got.

EDIT: Never heard of the sort of switches you describe. Any pics? Old Symbolics keyboards like the one lowpoly has used Hall Effect keyswitches made by the Micro-Switch company.

Quote
Lol, you're like a man in an ordinary car who comments to someone with a Lamborghini that the other model is much cooler ;)

QFT for sure.

Quote
Not really, but there haven't been enough "Fun" keyboards.

Define 'fun'.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:30:05 by ch_123 »

Offline lowpoly

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:27:04 »
Now you have to post a pic. :-)

Looks like kbdbabel isn't the only option, you can also convert to USB:

http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-convert-your-symbolics-keyboard.html

Edit: Does it look like this?


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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #13 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:28:40 »
Are those Cherry NMBs? Or whatever it is that the G81-3000 keyboards use.

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:37:06 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114079
Now you have to post a pic. :-)

Edit: Does it look like this?

Show Image


Nope, I have a revision A, and that's a rev. c.  From the text on the source of that picture, regarding holding down the switch with a screwdriver to see the closed switch, there is a spring or dome or something in the switch.

There is no spring or dome inside the switch on mine.  When I take the key off, the switch falls closed; there is a rubber dome built into the keys, and that holds the switch open.

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:43:47 »
The only camera I have is in my phone, so the picture is not good.

The gray circle in the key is the rubber dome.  The white square in the switch is closed in that picture, and the key grabs onto it and holds it open, instead of the switch holding the key up, as is common.


Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #16 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:46:30 »
Looks like rubber sleeve with rubber contact on pcb. Maybe there is something different under the white plunger.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:49:12 by lowpoly »

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Offline quadibloc

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:58:03 »
Quote from: rdjack21;114021
Are the key caps cupped like the older boards?


Yes, you can see that from the photo.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #18 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:02:21 »
No, they're not.

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Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:03:31 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114089
Looks like rubber sleeve with rubber contact on pcb. Maybe there is something different under the white plunger.


Do you think there is any type of mechanical switch that would have a chance of working with it?  Forget about the key stems, I have some ideas for dealing with that, and possible size differences in the switches.

Offline lowpoly

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:08:02 »
I'd check the switch internals first. Rubber contact on pcb was just a guess.

Rubber sleeves can be replaced by springs. A C64 (or two) would be an easy donor here.

Edit: If you have too much time you can make the springs yourself:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww5f.biglobe.ne.jp%2F~silencium%2Fkeyboard%2Fhtml%2F5576b01kai.html&sl=ja&tl=en

Edit2: No idea about a new switch.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:14:17 by lowpoly »

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Offline rdjack21

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:11:36 »
They looked to me to be a little more pronounced version of the keys on current boards. But unless a picture is taken specifically of the keys at the right angle you can't really tell for sure. That is why I asked.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline ed_

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:27:59 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114094
I'd check the switch internals first. Rubber contact on pcb was just a guess.

Rubber sleeves can be replaced by springs. A C64 (or two) would be an easy donor here.

Edit: If you have too much time you can make the springs yourself:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww5f.biglobe.ne.jp%2F~silencium%2Fkeyboard%2Fhtml%2F5576b01kai.html&sl=ja&tl=en

Edit2: No idea about a new switch.



I just opened it; the switches are mounted on a metal plate, with a PCB underneath.  I can't think of any switch that would fit right, not without building a custom plate.

Replacing the rubber sleeve with springs is a good idea.  I should be able to do it without damaging anything other than the rubber, and won't prevent me from building a new plate in the future, if I want to use a completely new switch.  I'll also try to think of a way to add some type of tactile click without disturbing anything other than the sleeve.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #23 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:30:33 »
If you want it clicky it might be easier to get rev c and replace the NMB switches. If they aren't clicky already. Sandy should know if this kind of NMB swap is possible.

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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #24 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:32:51 »
Are there any soldered switch legs? That should be clue whether it uses rubber contacts.

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Offline ed_

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« Reply #25 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:50:12 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114102
Are there any soldered switch legs? That should be clue whether it uses rubber contacts.


I'm not sure what those are, but in sounds like a good description of what I am seeing--each switch has four connectors on the top side that penetrate the PCB and are soldered on the opposite side.


I can't see much else because the PCB is riveted to the metal plate, which obscures everything except half of the switches on the edges.  I can't get a clear picture of anything.

Offline ed_

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« Reply #26 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:55:54 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114101
If you want it clicky it might be easier to get rev c and replace the NMB switches. If they aren't clicky already. Sandy should know if this kind of NMB swap is possible.

Does NMB have more than one model of switch?

I found this, which is listed as tactile with 55g actuation force, which sounds like it could be alright.  I can't tell if it is the same as in the picture of the rev. c.




edit: That's a bad picture.  It looks the same as this one.  If that's what's in the rev. c then I may need to find one.

« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:58:26 by ed_ »

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #27 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 16:58:55 »
Are the legs soldered to pcb traces? If yes it looks like there is a mechanical switch under the plunger. The rubber sleeve is just for the tactile sensation.

A rubber contact usually has the pcb traces on the upper side of the pcb with no need to solder through.

This could also mean than the switch does not engage at the bottom-out point but earlier. Could be a good switch after all.

Edit: those pics look like regular rubber domes. It even says 'membrane'. Whether they use a plunger or not doesn't make much difference. The NMB is a totally different mechanical switch. Do a search for 'space invaders' here on the board. There are two types, linear and clicky. They are color coded, IIRC. White should be linear.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:07:33 by lowpoly »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #28 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:04:39 »
A linear rubber dome board? This is news to me.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #29 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:08:14 »
It's very Dell Quiet Key-esque alright...

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #30 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:10:55 »
That's what you get when you search for NMB keyboard switch. Because they produce rubber domes now.

The old mechanical switch is at the top of the same page:

http://www.freeopenbook.com/upgrading-repairing-pc/ch18lev1sec2.html

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Offline ed_

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« Reply #31 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:13:47 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114107
Are the legs soldered to pcb traces? If yes it looks like there is a mechanical switch under the plunger. The rubber sleeve is just for the tactile sensation.

A rubber contact usually has the pcb traces on the upper side of the pcb with no need to solder through.

This could also mean than the switch does not engage at the bottom out point but earlier. Could be a good switch after all.



The person who made the Teensy-based converter has some good pictures.  It looks like mine, and in another post he calls it an original new-style board, so I think that it's the same rev.

His pics are here:
http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-convert-your-symbolics-keyboard.html


Quote

Edit: those pics look like regular rubber domes. It even says 'membrane'. Whether they use a plunger or not doesn't make much difference. The NMB is totally different mechanical switch. Do a search for 'space invaders' here on the board. There are two types, linear and clicky. They are color coded, IIRC. White should be linear.


The page where I got the first image from says mechanical and tactile.  I did find a diagram of the ones that look like the space invaders, so most likely the person who put that page together just put the wrong image on the page.  The ones on the rev. c, are white.


I looked at a diagram of a Topre switch, and if I put a spring under the rubber sleeve, then it would look a lot alike, but not capacitive, and with the spring/dome mechanism above the switch instead of below it.  I'm curious to see how that would feel.

Offline ed_

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« Reply #32 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:15:15 »
Quote from: webwit;114111
Hmm, it looks surprisingly similar to a pile of horse crap. Say it ain't so!


I think that is just a result of me finding a page where someone used the wrong image.  It doesn't look like what is in the rev. c.  Either way, mine is a rev. a.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #33 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:17:17 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114113
That's what you get when you search for NMB keyboard switch. Because they produce rubber domes now.

The old mechanical switch is at the top of the same page:

http://www.freeopenbook.com/upgrading-repairing-pc/ch18lev1sec2.html


Good old Scott Mueller - his favorite board is the Endurapro apparently. He seems to get BS mixed up with capacitive switches though.

Offline ed_

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« Reply #34 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:20:46 »
Quote from: ch_123;114121
Good old Scott Mueller - his favorite board is the Endurapro apparently. He seems to get BS mixed up with capacitive switches though.

Older IBMs, I believe the Model F is one, had a capacitive BS switch, but he is wrong that Unicomp and the later IBMs have them.

Offline sggsix

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« Reply #35 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:32:37 »
Ed_, can you please record a keyboard audio clip of you typing on this board, and post it in the keyboard audio clip section of the forum?  

Thanks

SGGSIX
HHKB Pro 2  (black)
Realforce 101 (white)
Unicomp Spacesaver Model M Russian Key Caps (pearl)
HHKB Lite 2 Japanese Key Caps (black)
HHKB Lite English Key Caps (white)

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #36 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:44:57 »
Quote from: ed_;114125
Older IBMs, I believe the Model F is one, had a capacitive BS switch, but he is wrong that Unicomp and the later IBMs have them.


That's what I was getting at. Unfortunately, IBM moved onto the less impressive membrane BS design >.>

Offline ed_

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« Reply #37 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 20:44:11 »
Quote from: sggsix;114133
Ed_, can you please record a keyboard audio clip of you typing on this board, and post it in the keyboard audio clip section of the forum?  

Thanks

SGGSIX


I don't have a microphone, sorry.  The only sound is from bottoming out, and it is a soft thud.


Does anyone know of a switch that can be mounted in the same way as the one in the rev. a or c pictures?  The rev. a is plate mounted with four contacts on the front side soldered onto the bottom of the PCB.  Lots of people have posted keyboards with the NMB switches that are on the rev. c, but I haven't seen anything that shows how it mounts--so that I can compare it to possible replacements.

Offline ed_

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« Reply #38 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 21:11:03 »
Quote from: sggsix;114133
Ed_, can you please record a keyboard audio clip of you typing on this board, and post it in the keyboard audio clip section of the forum?  

Thanks

SGGSIX


Here: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6995


Does anyone know of a switch that can be mounted in the same way as the one in the rev. a or c pictures?  The rev. a is plate mounted with four contacts on the front side soldered onto the bottom of the PCB.  Lots of people have posted keyboards with the NMB switches that are on the rev. c, but I haven't seen anything that shows how it mounts--so that I can compare it to possible replacements.

Offline rdh

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« Reply #39 on: Thu, 03 September 2009, 01:09:49 »
Quote from: ed_;114002
First some notes: I'm not posting a full review, since I just got it and won't have the time to build a converter for a while.


Are you going to build the kbdbabel adaptor, or this one, or do you have other plans?

The second one is based on the Teensy USB development board, which can pose as a USB keyboard...  Sounds like it could be used for some interesting projects.
at home: IBM "Space Saving" Model M
at work: Topre Realforce 87UKB55


Offline ed_

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« Reply #40 on: Thu, 03 September 2009, 01:16:37 »
I'm going to use the Teensy, since I don't feel like learning 8051 assembler, and I may want to program macros directly to the board; ones that won't depend on the computer having a specific OS or programs installed.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #41 on: Thu, 03 September 2009, 09:35:09 »
Quote from: lowpoly;114092
No, they're not.


I see you're right... while the photo of a Symbolics keyboard from another source used in much of this thread appeared to me to show one with cupped keycaps (maybe not as deeply cupped as the ones on the Space Cadet keyboard, but cupped), the photo the OP made using the camera in his cell phone clearly shows a keyboard with PC-style cylinder keycaps.

I take it you have (or have seen in real life) one and it's like his.

Searching found another picture which clearly shows cylinder keys:
http://www.globalnerdy.com/2009/02/05/hacklabtos-lisp-machine-keyboard/

I thought I did see a site with close-up pictures of keys from one of those keyboards that were cupped, but I can't find it right now. There was an intermediate version with the new keyboard layout, and a different color of keys, that had cupped keys, but that's not what I was thinking of.

Offline lowpoly

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Just got a Symbolics new style keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 04 September 2009, 09:12:43 »
Quote from: ch_123;114075
Old Symbolics keyboards like the one lowpoly has used Hall Effect keyswitches made by the Micro-Switch company.


I didn't open mine yet, but are you sure about the Hall Effect switch?

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