[IC] Laser GMK - 80's & Cyberpunk (LIVE)

[Auk]

I wanted to make a decision on something else GB related, so I skimmed back through most of the thread for answers and clues about Laser. A few comments and thoughts I'd like to share:

• I couldn't find any intent to provide icon modifiers, but related to this: the idea to use modifiers with words Hyper, Super and Meta is unlikely. That in itself is a pity as those might be a better fit.
• MiTo prefers Gaijin, so that would explain this second vote. I prefer the Hiragana myself, but the final call is with the designer. So instead of this second vote nonsense, focus on maximizing the overall kit with Gaijin and then see if it's possible to accommodate the Hiragana another way.
• I firmly believe Laser is going to sell 600-800 at minimum, probably well over 1000. Maybe more given it won't be in the midst of all the other major drops.

I think you can have maximum confidence in the popularity of the Laser concept. Eliminate the plain vanilla GMK standard Latin legends and basic GMK modifiers, don't include them at all! Go all in on theme and either offer two alternative base kits:

• Gaijin with Hyper, Super and Meta modifiers. If this is really what people prefer then make the theme complete and finish the overall look. Spread the cost as wide as possible and make sure everyone can get it and the novelties.
• Hiragana with Icon modifiers (use the Yuri molds if necessary.) Complete the Hiragana set with the three extra 1u keys that the JIS folk want, it will give everyone else three extra 'blanks' to play with for their non-regulation layouts.

or:

• Don't offer a base kit at all. Just let anyone mix and match any of the Gaijin alphas, Hiragana alphas, Hyper/Super/Meta modifiers and Icon modifiers in any combo they prefer.

Finally:

• Looking at the criticism of the Hiragana renders, a complaint is that it's too bare or empty overall. After reviewing some of GMK's previous novelties, if a new mold is required there appears to be no reason they can't do centered legends similar to Signature Plastic's default? Try rendering the Hiragana in an SP style, centered and much larger. This could give the Hiragana the extra pop that some of the detractors crave. If it works better overall, GMK should make any mold set you are willing to pay for.

[Vigrith]

I couldn't find any intent provide icon modifiers(...)

Mito's confirmed on Reddit (somewhere, too busy to find it now) that there will be icon mods - not sure whether they'll be an all new design or if they may use the Yuri moulds but this was 2 to 3 days ago max so we can be certain it is accurate information, more will probably be disclosed later on as he progresses the project.

[Tally810]

Gaijen is winning again.  Popcorn ready

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[Vigrith]

Gaijen is winning again.  Popcorn ready

I don't think anyone is being overly defensive of Hiragana mono to the point of it being "cringy" - at least not here on GH, I really don't read reddit very much (if ever) so I can't speak for that but as Amnesia stated, polls are skewed, no matter what is winning. Arguments can be made both ways and for/against either of the options, I don't think there's anything wrong with enthusiasts being passionate about their preference; we're all weirdos that pay for plastic key caps for our fancy keyboards after all, I hardly think this is cringe.

That said, I do agree Hiragana mono people seem to be a lot more vocal. Whether or not this means there's more real interest in that than there is in gaijin is speculation, guesstimating at best. I'll personally be buying either one, I prefer mono because I think it looks a lot cleaner and will help people with alternate layouts figure their lives out but the chaotic nature of gaijin also fits the theme quite well, akin to the packed, narrow streets (mostly of Japan) seen in cyberpunk and similar sceneries.

[a_ak57]

I actually voted gaijin myself, I just think there is a valid point to be made about poll results vs what actual sale results would look like.  I do also think it'd be worth trying to sell both sets then just dropping hiragana if it's lagging too much.

[Juk]

Hiragana + icon modifiers would be so perfect...

[Data]

I actually voted gaijin myself, I just think there is a valid point to be made about poll results vs what actual sale results would look like.  I do also think it'd be worth trying to sell both sets then just dropping hiragana if it's lagging too much.

If both sets receive enough votes to exceed the notorious GMK MOQ then that would be a strong case for running both of them.  But it would probably have to be over 1,000 votes each because we know that not everyone who votes will ultimately buy either set.  People like to vote in these web polls because it costs nothing and it's fun to choose a winner.  Things change quickly when it comes time to pay up and the ratio of actually buying the set versus just voting for it is equally true/meaningful for both gaijin and hiragana in this case.

[RedSuns]

If both sets receive enough votes to exceed the notorious GMK MOQ then that would be a strong case for running both of them.  But it would probably have to be over 1,000 votes each because we know that not everyone who votes will ultimately buy either set.  People like to vote in these web polls because it costs nothing and it's fun to choose a winner.  Things change quickly when it comes time to pay up and the ratio of actually buying the set versus just voting for it is equally true/meaningful for both gaijin and hiragana in this case.

True story.

[fouras]

I might try this Gaijin/base combo if Hiragana loses. Think it looks a bit less busy with the triple-legend caps gone.

[..//dexx]

Gaijen is winning again.  Popcorn ready

I don't think anyone is being overly defensive of Hiragana mono to the point of it being "cringy" - at least not here on GH, I really don't read reddit very much (if ever) so I can't speak for that but as Amnesia stated, polls are skewed, no matter what is winning. Arguments can be made both ways and for/against either of the options, I don't think there's anything wrong with enthusiasts being passionate about their preference; we're all weirdos that pay for plastic key caps for our fancy keyboards after all, I hardly think this is cringe.

That said, I do agree Hiragana mono people seem to be a lot more vocal. Whether or not this means there's more real interest in that than there is in gaijin is speculation, guesstimating at best. I'll personally be buying either one, I prefer mono because I think it looks a lot cleaner and will help people with alternate layouts figure their lives out but the chaotic nature of gaijin also fits the theme quite well, akin to the packed, narrow streets (mostly of Japan) seen in cyberpunk and similar sceneries.

No drama in Reddit. No clear favorite. Both sides are surprised the other has that many votes. The most passionate post was one guy saying he'll commit Sudoku if Gaijin wins.  )

[SBN]

I couldn't find any intent provide icon modifiers(...)

Mito's confirmed on Reddit (somewhere, too busy to find it now) that there will be icon mods - not sure whether they'll be an all new design or if they may use the Yuri moulds but this was 2 to 3 days ago max so we can be certain it is accurate information, more will probably be disclosed later on as he progresses the project.

I think you are referring to this post:

You can be sure that things will be done the right way, if Hiragana turns out to be the actual option there will be icon modifiers to complete a minimal look. If Gaijin wins, I'll find a dope workaround for modifiers too, either way everyone wins!

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6gwo6d/laser_gmk_updates_and_japanese_voting_link_inside/div8y72

[tofgerl]

Quick Q: Has there ever been made a keyset even close to this? The colors are so different from everything else I see out there...

[rmendis]

I might try this Gaijin/base combo if Hiragana loses. Think it looks a bit less busy with the triple-legend caps gone.

Show Image

That's what I am planning on doing. I actually like that combo better than Hiragana alone.

[garbo]

I was team hiragana since it seemed they'd work best with the blank modifiers on ortholinear. After arranging the renders into a preonic shape, I'm actually thinking dual legends would look better for this...

[Vigrith]

I might try this Gaijin/base combo if Hiragana loses. Think it looks a bit less busy with the triple-legend caps gone.

Show Image

That's what I am planning on doing. I actually like that combo better than Hiragana alone.

Yea, that does look way better than the regular Gaijin kit in my personal opinion. The only "problem" with that solution is that icon mods + Hiragana/gaijin can cover 60-67% boards without the need for the base kit, as someone who doesn't really use anything bigger than that ever (that'll change once the Kira comes along but that'll be a while), saving $100 by not having to buy the base kit is quite relevant. Same thing as I did with Yuri, just bought icon mods, Cyrillic and spacebars.

Then again, Laser probably warrants an all in, I guess buying the base kit even with little intention of making much use of it will be worth it.

[Juk]

I was team hiragana since it seemed they'd work best with the blank modifiers on ortholinear. After arranging the renders into a preonic shape, I'm actually thinking dual legends would look better for this...

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

The more I look at this, the less I want hiragana...
Now I kinda prefer dual legends too 

[TheDisappointingGatsby]

I was team hiragana since it seemed they'd work best with the blank modifiers on ortholinear. After arranging the renders into a preonic shape, I'm actually thinking dual legends would look better for this...

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

The more I look at this, the less I want hiragana...
Now I kinda prefer dual legends too 

Yesssss. Come to the dark side!

[thelaughingman]

I was team hiragana since it seemed they'd work best with the blank modifiers on ortholinear. After arranging the renders into a preonic shape, I'm actually thinking dual legends would look better for this...

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

The more I look at this, the less I want hiragana...
Now I kinda prefer dual legends too 

You know you want it, you know your heart calls ist name. Say it, just say it! GAIJIN!!! 

[Endeavour1934]

I like gaijin too, besides having normal legends, I think it's more cyberpunk: It looks very busy, almost chaotic, and mixes occidental & oriental culture.

[colbs]

I voted for Hiragana, but will buy whichever one wins.  Gonna look real nice on the dox 

EDIT: maybe it will look real nice on the planck instead of the dox

EDIT: OK, the right answer is get two sets so it looks real nice on the planck AND the dox.  gg

[rustywok]

Finally:

• Looking at the criticism of the Hiragana renders, a complaint is that it's too bare or empty overall. After reviewing some of GMK's previous novelties, if a new mold is required there appears to be no reason they can't do centered legends similar to Signature Plastic's default? Try rendering the Hiragana in an SP style, centered and much larger. This could give the Hiragana the extra pop that some of the detractors crave. If it works better overall, GMK should make any mold set you are willing to pay for.

This. I'm ever so slightly leaning toward Hiragana but it does look sparse when formatted ala GMK legends, i.e. upper left.  Be interesting to see a render SP legend style. But, seriously, if Mito already has a preference I'd rather he, the designer, take the reins on this and go with his choice. Design by committee doesn't do a lot for me, other than tweaking the kits for maximum compatibility. But it's an eternal battle over the "look" and this is where the designer should have dibs.

[xantiema]

I might try this Gaijin/base combo if Hiragana loses. Think it looks a bit less busy with the triple-legend caps gone.

Show Image

That's what I am planning on doing. I actually like that combo better than Hiragana alone.

Yea, that does look way better than the regular Gaijin kit in my personal opinion. The only "problem" with that solution is that icon mods + Hiragana/gaijin can cover 60-67% boards without the need for the base kit, as someone who doesn't really use anything bigger than that ever (that'll change once the Kira comes along but that'll be a while), saving $100 by not having to buy the base kit is quite relevant. Same thing as I did with Yuri, just bought icon mods, Cyrillic and spacebars.

Then again, Laser probably warrants an all in, I guess buying the base kit even with little intention of making much use of it will be worth it.

I agree with the two of you, hadn't quite thought about that option - it certainly helps the clutter. I have to admit Gaijin is growing ever so slightly on me. Hiragana is still by far my favorite, but slightly less now :)).

I'll be getting the set regardless, and would be okay with MiTo just taking the reins and deciding on a set, rather than going by the vote results.

[Auk]

Mito's confirmed on Reddit...

I think you are referring to this post:

You can be sure that things will be done the right way, if Hiragana turns out to be the actual option there will be icon modifiers to complete a minimal look. If Gaijin wins, I'll find a dope workaround for modifiers too, either way everyone wins!

...

Thanks for sharing this 

I think the key reason I'm not so keen on the Gaijin option is because it looks like it was shoehorned in, and the net result disjointed.

fouras' idea does look neater:

...

Show Image

Reaffirms my belief that the Gaijin option can be improved considerably. If it will have its' own modifiers to match that will be excellent.

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

[colbs]

Reaffirms my belief that the Gaijin option can be improved considerably. If it will have its' own modifiers to match that will be excellent.

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

I actually quite like this idea, I didn't realize how cluttered the number row was until I saw that mockup.

[colbs]

Then again, Laser probably warrants an all in, I guess buying the base kit even with little intention of making much use of it will be worth it.

Oh yeah, it definitely warrants an all in...this is the kind of set where you would regret not getting all the kits as soon as the GB period ended. 

[dodgeyhack]

Way late to the party, but it just occurred to me that there should be a Starcon novelty!

edit: Oops, it was released in 1990. But still....

[xantiema]

Has Laser decided where this Groupbuy will take place?

[ArchDill]

Has Laser decided where this Groupbuy will take place?

Most likely Massdrop.

[fouras]

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

Looks good to me. Might actually prefer it to Hiragana.

[Vigrith]

^ that's very good work. Still prefer straight Hiragana as to me the English legends are useless and I like the more unique look of that but either way, great idea.

[pikku-allu]

A useful suggestion: adding a blank 1.25u key to the spacebars kit. Numerous custom keyboards with a split spacebar could make use of this. Also, a single blank wouldn't add much at all to the total cost I believe.

[nightdriver]

Reaffirms my belief that the Gaijin option can be improved considerably. If it will have its' own modifiers to match that will be excellent.

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

I actually quite like this idea, I didn't realize how cluttered the number row was until I saw that mockup.

problem with that is, while i may be a touch typist for words and numbers, i don't always remember which number key i need to press to get, say, an ampersand.

[colbs]

Reaffirms my belief that the Gaijin option can be improved considerably. If it will have its' own modifiers to match that will be excellent.

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

I actually quite like this idea, I didn't realize how cluttered the number row was until I saw that mockup.

problem with that is, while i may be a touch typist for words and numbers, i don't always remember which number key i need to press to get, say, an ampersand.

What better way to learn than a kit like this? 

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[Auk]

Show Image

Looks good to me. Might actually prefer it to Hiragana.

Nice! in return here are Hiragana legends at 150% original size:

[poolside]

so... are the "CAPS LOCO" caps going to be pad printed

All keycaps present in the project will be double shot, I thought that CAPS LOCO was a cool addition but if you guys don't enjoy it we can change to the normal CAPS LOCK. Let me know what you guys think and we can arrive in a final design together.

I favor Caps LocK.

Since that number row is going to be double shot, I assume we're looking at new molds again for these, so I will add to what I said about going all in on this concept to really complete it. So my new suggestion: redesign the new Gaijin number row without the regular secondary legends i.e. !, @, #, $ etc. Just have the numeral and the Gaijin character.

That way it can still be "busy" without being cluttered, and also becomes universal for all languages and regions.

Show Image

Looks good to me. Might actually prefer it to Hiragana.

This looks indeed nice :thumb:

[_PixelNinja]

I favor Caps LocK.

+1.

[patersunny]

Show Image

Looks good to me. Might actually prefer it to Hiragana.

Nice! in return here are Hiragana legends at 150% original size:

(Attachment Link)

Oooooo yes to this! And if there was some nice big SUPER - META- HYPER keycaps too would be perfect :D

[xantiema]

The enlargened Hiragana looks out of proportions compared to the rest I must admit.. secksie, but ruins the synergy of the entire set

[Auk]

enlargened Hiragana looks out of proportions...

I thought maybe I increased the size too much anyway, and a full set of appropriately matching modifiers would be essential. Even with that, I think then we'd be looking at the F row, cursors, numpad and other keys and saying that they are jarring, so ultimately we'd be wanting a full size set of molds to make this work...

[xantiema]

enlargened Hiragana looks out of proportions...

I thought maybe I increased the size too much anyway, and a full set of appropriately matching modifiers would be essential. Even with that, I think then we'd be looking at the F row, cursors, numpad and other keys and saying that they are jarring, so ultimately we'd be wanting a full size set of molds to make this work...

What program do you guys use for the renders?

[Auk]

What program do you guys use for the renders?

GIMP

My system is extremely crude: starting with MiTo's highest res images, I'm just selecting areas to copy and paste and using the scale layer function to alter the legend sizes.

Version with blank alphas if you want to play with it:

[digisax]

so... are the "CAPS LOCO" caps going to be pad printed

All keycaps present in the project will be double shot, I thought that CAPS LOCO was a cool addition but if you guys don't enjoy it we can change to the normal CAPS LOCK. Let me know what you guys think and we can arrive in a final design together.

I could go either way on Caps Loco, but for what it's worth I'll be using a Control key there anyway.

Would it be possible to get a couple 1.5u Hack or Code keys or would that require new molds? If we had them the bottom row for an HHKB could be Code, Hack, Space, Hack, Code and it'd look great like that.

I'd settle for the icons though as they's still look nice on there.

[Vigrith]

Way too disproportionate at 150% - I think centred legends won't work unless we get icon mods and they are also centred; with standard cherry legends I don't think it'll work even if it's smaller (though if they got blown up like 25-30% and from the original and stayed in the corner that'd defo be an improvement imo).

[Auk]

I was thinking similar ideas, experiment with 120%, 125%, 133% and try both corner and mid height, justified left. Icons are important, so this all hinges on MiTo's designs for those.

[MiTo]

@Auk, I appreciate you taking your time to express your ideas that's truly fantastic! You made a great presentation with limited resources, great job. However, what you have presented so far does not represent what I have envisioned for the project, therefore I'll be avoiding that.

There won't be big centered legends as they look inconsistent and out of place when combined with Cherry profile keycaps in my opinion. Here's an example of somebody that applied big centered legends on a cubic profile. I won't compromise the keycap set with this look. I understand why some may like it, but I don't and every project needs somebody to call the shots, I hope you understand.

http://imgur.com/a/CrMjN

Also, I will not be modifying the number row Gaijin legends as you suggested, because the result is a weird mono(double) legend row, like a hybrid of some sort. I will keep the accents, symbols and punctuation as they are, because people who don't touch type need those. If somebody wants to achieve the look you suggested, with a less cluttered number row, they can somewhat do it by combining the Base Kit with Gaijin.

@Geekhack, compatibility revisions are pending but I designed the Gaijin and the Hiragana kits the way they are designed for a reason. The Hiragana is supposed to be a minimal kit, to be combined with modifiers for a simpler look. On the other hand, the Gaijin kit is supposed to be loud, like the streets of Neo Tokyo, cluttered with neon signs everywhere. I don't know why pad printing was mentioned but you should read OP more closely, specifically the Technical Specs section. Every keycap present on Laser GMK is doubleshot.

Another point I'd like to address is the purpose of a second poll, which is merely to provide me with data so I can work on it. When I first presented the interest check I thought people would polarize into a 90/10. Instead, what we have, after I excluded Hybrid from the pool, is a solid 50/50 or 60/40 and you'll understand why that's great later.

I ask you guys to keep being supportive and engaged like this, bringing new ideas to the discussion and spreading the word. We are going to turn this project into something very special, we are in fact doing that already! I'm currently traveling but I will return to address to more concerns, suggestions and ideas later.

[schoolbus]

@Auk, I appreciate you taking your time to express your ideas that's truly fantastic! You made a great presentation with limited resources, great job. However, what you have presented so far does not represent what I have envisioned for the project, therefore I'll be avoiding that.

There won't be big centered legends as they look inconsistent and out of place when combined with Cherry profile keycaps in my opinion. Here's an example of somebody that applied big centered legends on a cubic profile. I won't compromise the keycap set with this look. I understand why some may like it, but I don't and every project needs somebody to call the shots, I hope you understand.

http://imgur.com/a/CrMjN

Also, I will not be modifying the number row Gaijin legends as you suggested, because the result is a weird mono(double) legend row, like a hybrid of some sort. I will keep the accents, symbols and punctuation as they are, because people who don't touch type need those. If somebody wants to achieve the look you suggested, with a less cluttered number row, they can somewhat do it by combining the Base Kit with Gaijin.

@Geekhack, compatibility revisions are pending but I designed the Gaijin and the Hiragana kits the way they are designed for a reason. The Hiragana is supposed to be a minimal kit, to be combined with modifiers for a simpler look. On the other hand, the Gaijin kit is supposed to be loud, like the streets of Neo Tokyo, cluttered with neon signs everywhere. I don't know why pad printing was mentioned but you should read OP more closely, specifically the Technical Specs section. Every keycap present on Laser GMK is doubleshot.

Another point I'd like to address is the purpose of a second poll, which is merely to provide me with data so I can work on it. When I first presented the interest check I thought people would polarize into a 90/10. Instead, what we have, after I excluded Hybrid from the pool, is a solid 50/50 or 60/40 and you'll understand why that's great later.

I ask you guys to keep being supportive and engaged like this, bringing new ideas to the discussion and spreading the word. We are going to turn this project into something very special, we are in fact doing that already! I'm currently traveling but I will return to address to more concerns, suggestions and ideas later.

Glad you clarified the pad printing thing- idk why that rumor was started (probably "fake news" propaganda by Hiragana zealots) and it had me concerned about the dual legends. I for one like the loud crowded look for them and voted as such- but when someone said they were pad printed I would've definitely voted differently.

I'll most likely be getting whatever is decided upon and glad you clarified!

Cheers!

[xantiema]

Another point I'd like to address is the purpose of a second poll, which is merely to provide me with data so I can work on it. When I first presented the interest check I thought people would polarize into a 90/10. Instead, what we have, after I excluded Hybrid from the pool, is a solid 50/50 or 60/40 and you'll understand why that's great later.

You've got me totally hyped now, I'll buy both, bring it on 

[Puddsy]

GMK has doubleshot kana molds?

Does that include sublegends?

Won't custom legends cost a ****load?

[Vigrith]

GMK has doubleshot kana molds?

Does that include sublegends?

Won't custom legends cost a ****load?

They have neither - it will be very expensive but GMK has been quite supportive of new moulds being made lately (since Yuri, at least, inclusive, hence MD/T0m could get such low prices for icons/Cyrillic) so I actually do think it'd be very feasible for a set like Laser; if anything can pull it off, it's this.

[Juk]

I understand why some may like it, but I don't and every project needs somebody to call the shots, I hope you understand.

Another point I'd like to address is the purpose of a second poll, which is merely to provide me with data so I can work on it. When I first presented the interest check I thought people would polarize into a 90/10. Instead, what we have, after I excluded Hybrid from the pool, is a solid 50/50 or 60/40 and you'll understand why that's great later.

If this means what I think, I'm buying both. Have a few boards around that may use the extra keycaps