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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: samwisekoi on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:09:59

Title: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:09:59
Prologue for the Newly-Arrived
18-May-2015

This is not a necro-thread.  It is a very slow-burn project that sits behind other projects, like me completing my own F-122 "Super-Soarer" (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71581.msg1735735#msg1735735) mod, getting the Beta GH36 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61306.msg1746824#msg1746824) completed, and wrapping up my own prototype JD45 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62641.msg1746988#msg1746988) keyboard.

The current layout of the GH-122 is shown in this post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62003.msg1589582#msg1589582

That layout shows the possible one hundred and fifty-two key positions the board will provide.  It will be Cherry MX and Alps keyswitch compatible, and it will be fully programmable.  Backlighting is TBD, as are several other details.

The GH-122 project is not dead; it is merely on hiatus, waiting its turn.

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Original Post


So here I am on a Wednesday night watching the Nuclear Green group buy and waiting for the prototype GH-36 matrix keypad PCBs to arrive.  And what do I see on geekhack?  Another Great Find post for an F-122 that I won't ever own.

[attach=1]
Another F-122 I won't ever own.

And there I am with my PCB design software open in a VM in front of me, and I started to wonder what it would cost to make a small quantity of MX (or Alps) 122-key keyboard PCBs.  So I cobbled one together using the layout of the F-122 above, adjusted to modern keycap spacing.  Here is what I got:

[attach=2]
GH-122 Exercise by samwisekoi 2014

The answer to what would it cost?  Just $60 each for a batch of 10 PCBs.

Of course there are issues.  Setting aside the case question for the moment, what controller could support a 24x7 matrix?  The PCB would clearly have to bend for the upper bank of 24 function keys.  Can the Easy AVR software support a controller big enough to drive this thing?

And, of course, are there any other people in this fine community crazy enough to try to build such a beast?

Anyone?

Let me know.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:32:04
Some thoughts:

The second block (all the function keys) could be built as a second PCB, potentially even with a second controller, bringing the scope down to conventinal sizes.
Worth-considering options:
* ANSI style support
* Conventional inverted-T arrow support
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 21 August 2014, 00:05:01
All those people who want to play with the Teensy 3.1 would have a very real reason to do so.

I'd say that nostalgia aside, ANSI enter keys and maybe inverted - T arrows should be on the (switch-)plate.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 21 August 2014, 01:12:57
teensy++ has enough pins for sure, as akmalamute says, T3.1 as well. another option is to use a normal teensy and get some io expanders like what bpiphany has on the replacement boards (I think he uses an atmega 27u2 and 2 chips to drive all the rows / columns)

I'd like to see the four key locations around the arrow keys have the options (like the "unsaver") so people can opt for inverted t. + extras. I really liked that aspect on my phantom.
---
Now, while I don't think the curved PCB is required, it would be pretty interesting. Even without it, I like this idea. (lots of 122-key keyboards aren't curved: nmb (I think), cherry, etc.)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 21 August 2014, 10:22:32
Interesting idea.

If this is being done from scratch, I recommend adding a 1x key between the 1.5x modifiers on the bottom row. It would be a small and useful addition in the PCB design.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 10:26:53
yes yes yes
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Krogenar on Thu, 21 August 2014, 10:48:17
I'm in.

What would be necessary to make this compatible with M-122 versus F-122? The Model F's are rare and hard to find -- and people say their cases are brittle anyway. M-122's seem to be a lot more available.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:02:14
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:17:53
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)


Might as well have a full top 2 rows all the way across to have a full battlestation!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:25:14
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)


Might as well have a full top 2 rows all the way across to have a full battlestation!

I'm sure you refer to this image, which I posted here quite some time ago:

(http://i.imgur.com/k4NhMhc.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:25:45
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)


Might as well have a full top 2 rows all the way across to have a full battlestation!

I'm sure you refer to this image, which I posted here quite some time ago:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/k4NhMhc.png)


I knew I had seen that somewhere :eek:
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:36:49
The PCB would clearly have to bend for the upper bank of 24 function keys.

Not necessarily, if one were to use sculpted profile keycaps, which are designed to replicate this sort of curvature. :P
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:43:00
why not just use 2 PCBs?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:44:12
why not just use 2 PCBs?

Yes, if a bend really is necessary, using two PCBs and a plate that will bend in that area is the way to go.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:51:02
Wow!  Apparently people are interested, at least as a thought experiment.  So I went ahead and did a proper layout.

 - ANSI
 - ISO
 - Full matrix for any arrow cluster desired
 - Hidden switch positions in all the usual places (e.g. under Backspace, both centered and off-set Capslock, etc.)
 - MX and Alps (Matias)  switch support
 - Teensy++ controller
 - Bend and floating controller daughter-board will be supported by using optional ribbon cables, location TBD.
 - Bottom row options:

1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5 - 7.0 - 1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5  (Leave the 1.0 switches out if you want.)

1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 -6.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25

I haven't done ANYTHING for LED support beyond pads and resistor locations.  I haven't done the proper things to the numpad (just remembered that.)  I haven't put in stabilizer mounts.

And I have not connected the sections, the controller, or even run the row/column traces TO the controller.

But the actual switch layout addresses everything suggested except for the mega-matrix top rows.

[attach=1]
GH-122 PCB Pre-Prototype Design by samwisekoi 2014

Keep commenting and I'll keep running traces!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Also, go buy some Nuclear Data Green keycaps to fill this mother!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 11:58:06
Sam, i am very interested in this.

ANSI would be great,

and i like that you are keeping the nav cluster open for different configurations.

and i personally like 1.25 x x x 6.25 x x x 1.25 as you stated.

I'm guessing this will need a case designed for it as well.

Either way this is a great idea, there arent hardly any fullsize boards, let along fullsize customs and there is NOTHING with all the extras that are part of this idea.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:06:41
Wow!  Apparently people are interested, at least as a thought experiment.  So I went ahead and did a proper layout.

 - ANSI
 - ISO
 - Full matrix for any arrow cluster desired
 - Hidden switch positions in all the usual places (e.g. under Backspace, both centered and off-set Capslock, etc.)
 - MX and Alps (Matias)  switch support
 - Teensy++ controller
 - Bend and floating controller daughter-board will be supported by using optional ribbon cables, location TBD.
 - Bottom row options:

1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5 - 7.0 - 1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5  (Leave the 1.0 switches out if you want.)

1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 -6.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25

I haven't done ANYTHING for LED support beyond pads and resistor locations.  I haven't done the proper things to the numpad (just remembered that.)  I haven't put in stabilizer mounts.

And I have not connected the sections, the controller, or even run the row/column traces TO the controller.

But the actual switch layout addresses everything suggested except for the mega-matrix top rows.

(Attachment Link)
GH-122 PCB Pre-Prototype Design by samwisekoi 2014

Keep commenting and I'll keep running traces!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Also, go buy some Nuclear Data Green keycaps to fill this mother!


Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way :thumb:

Of course I say go all out crazy and split it out into 8 pcbs to be connected together or could at least be cut apart and used otherwise.  :p

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:10:45
Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way :thumb:

That's the controller daughterboard, for the Teensy++ 2.0. :D
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:15:27
Wow I am very interested in this. Following close.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:27:53
Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way :thumb:

That's the controller daughterboard, for the Teensy++ 2.0. :D

:facepalm:

as a side note we really need an animated facepalm smiley...i do it alot....:D
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:43:34
How about 114 keys - like a Sun 7 layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6e020637a1db9ef6f08ea54922507bf9

Or add 4 more keys on the top right - like the image in my signature for a 118 key layout.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 21 August 2014, 12:49:58
Well, you guys are insane.  But you are my kind of insane!

Here you go.  I'll add the 2x to R2C1-2 when I fix the numpad.

The ICs are for LED control unless someone else has a better idea.  The little circles are for proper CAPS, NUM, and SCROLL LEDs.

I may not keep all of those extra switches, but they don't add to row or column count, so they are in for the moment.

Jeez.

[attach=1]
Not Just Stupidly Large, Insanely Large!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:02:17
I don't understand why you could not just get a real F122, but still this project is nice in itself.


As for my input, here it is:


1. To make it way easier to produce, at least on a first batch, I suggest that you get a plate that can be used as a case when bent since making a real case for this monster would be quite some trouble. It would also give it some style the same way Fohat does with his caseless F122.


2. It will probably be easier to make a second pcb for the top fonction row as many people suggested since it will be easier to put it there without bending the pcb. Remember that cherry keycaps need the profile while the F122 use the bend on the plate/pcb for the curvature of the keys.


Also, while the F122 is nice, it's HUGE. making a space unsaver layout as an option could be nice for many people, or not if you want to go the REAL BIG KEYBOARD way which is nice in itself. I agree that for a first batch, keep the layout simple and the options limited. When you will all brag about how awesome the keyboard is, if there's enough interest then you could open the possibility for more layouts since the limitation will mostly come from the plate. Not sure you will want to produce 10 plates and make them with 7 different layouts as it would end up probably!


EDIT: This reply was typed on my REAL F122  :p
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:12:33
Ok, reality checks from JPG and from the cost estimation program.  Adding all of those top switches pulls the PCB across some square inch boundary layer, doubling the cost.  So, it is back to the 122+ design shown a few posts above.

To JPG's points, I am going to design the board so that the top section and the logic section can be sliced off of the main PCB and connected via internal ribbon cables.  That will allow for flexibility in mounting exactly in the ways JPG suggests.  Also, I am keeping all of the logic left of the numpad section, allowing for an easy trim to space unsaver profile.

So we are back to 122/ANSI plus a full directional matrix area.  I'll lay the traces for that version, and if more than ten people actually want these, then we can do further options.

Again, I am ignoring the obvious case and firmware questions for now.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[edit]
Fixed the attribution in this post.  I was referring to JPG, not some other person with lots of 122-key keyboards and an almost identical avatar.
[/edit]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:17:29
I'm still in. :)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: xavierblak on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:47:30
I don't want to derail the thread too much. But this is somewhat related to something that's been bouncing around in the back of my head for a little while.

The idea would be instead of creating one large board instead create keyboard modules(i.e. a 60% board, a keypad, a function board) than then connect to a keyboard controller board via a communication wire (using something like SPI or I2C). The advantage there would be you could be very custom in how you layout the keyboard and have any size board you want. You just get a plate cut put the boards in, wire them to the controller configure which keys do what and you'd be good to go.

This is a more complicated solution than just making a fixed size pcb but I just wanted to put it out there to see if anyone else had any similar thoughts.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:51:06
I don't want to derail the thread too much. But this is somewhat related to something that's been bouncing around in the back of my head for a little while.

The idea would be instead of creating one large board instead create keyboard modules(i.e. a 60% board, a keypad, a function board) than then connect to a keyboard controller board. The advantage there would be you could be very custom in how you layout the keyboard and have any size board you want. You just get a plate cut put the boards in, wire them to the controller configure which keys do what and you'd be good to go.

This is a more complicated solution than just making a fixed size pcb but I just wanted to put it out there to see if anyone else had any similar thoughts.

Wow!  Apparently people are interested, at least as a thought experiment.  So I went ahead and did a proper layout.

 - ANSI
 - ISO
 - Full matrix for any arrow cluster desired
 - Hidden switch positions in all the usual places (e.g. under Backspace, both centered and off-set Capslock, etc.)
 - MX and Alps (Matias)  switch support
 - Teensy++ controller
 - Bend and floating controller daughter-board will be supported by using optional ribbon cables, location TBD.
 - Bottom row options:

1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5 - 7.0 - 1.5 - 1.0 - 1.5  (Leave the 1.0 switches out if you want.)

1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 -6.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25

I haven't done ANYTHING for LED support beyond pads and resistor locations.  I haven't done the proper things to the numpad (just remembered that.)  I haven't put in stabilizer mounts.

And I have not connected the sections, the controller, or even run the row/column traces TO the controller.

But the actual switch layout addresses everything suggested except for the mega-matrix top rows.

(Attachment Link)
GH-122 PCB Pre-Prototype Design by samwisekoi 2014

Keep commenting and I'll keep running traces!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Also, go buy some Nuclear Data Green keycaps to fill this mother!


Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way :thumb:

Of course I say go all out crazy and split it out into 8 pcbs to be connected together or could at least be cut apart and used otherwise.  :p

(Attachment Link)

nobody reads my posts :P
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 13:59:43
Doesn't MOZ have a thread about that in Making Stuff Together? I'm on mobile, and can't be arsed. :P
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 21 August 2014, 14:01:24
Doesn't MOZ have a thread about that in Making Stuff Together? I'm on mobile, and can't be arsed. :p

Yeah moz's project I believe he called it blox was a little more intense.

EDIT: here is that thread http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48326.0
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: xavierblak on Thu, 21 August 2014, 14:09:28
nobody reads my posts :P

Sorry.  I saw your post, I guess I was thinking of them as two different ideas. ;D

I'll take a look for Moz's post.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: JPG on Thu, 21 August 2014, 14:20:33
I don't want to derail the thread too much. But this is somewhat related to something that's been bouncing around in the back of my head for a little while.

The idea would be instead of creating one large board instead create keyboard modules(i.e. a 60% board, a keypad, a function board) than then connect to a keyboard controller board via a communication wire (using something like SPI or I2C). The advantage there would be you could be very custom in how you layout the keyboard and have any size board you want. You just get a plate cut put the boards in, wire them to the controller configure which keys do what and you'd be good to go.

This is a more complicated solution than just making a fixed size pcb but I just wanted to put it out there to see if anyone else had any similar thoughts.


I am also pretty sure we could achieve something similar with the case design with 3d printing. Don't know how much it would cost, but I am pretty sure a design with some lego-type joints that would be solidified with something maybe. Anyway, nice idea, probably shared by many, but I think the first step would be to make a more simple keyboard, get the details ok and then go for modularity!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: pasph on Thu, 21 August 2014, 17:12:23
Sorry but after going through Phantom and GH60 i really hope that this will be a small venture, no way that i'll be in another super ultra mega custom kb GB.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 17:20:21

Sorry but after going through Phantom and GH60 i really hope that this will be a small venture, no way that i'll be in another super ultra mega custom kb GB.

It's Ron, so you know it's good. No chance of mistake with a Ron GB.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 21 August 2014, 17:45:23

Sorry but after going through Phantom and GH60 i really hope that this will be a small venture, no way that i'll be in another super ultra mega custom kb GB.

It's Ron, so you know it's good. No chance of mistake with a Ron GB.

Thanks!

I was just looking to see if I was the only one who might be interested in this.  If around 10 people are interested, then the boards are worth making.  Otherwise, not so much.

One thing that is 'mega' is the trace count.  24 columns is a LOT of traces, and I am trying to keep them all .020" thick as well, so that is kind of a pain.

In related news, I just got the shipping notice for the prototype GH-36 PCBs!  So I have to get this battleship off my plate before those get here.

Anyhow, this won't be a big deal.  We'll run a few and that may be all it ever is.

But it will be cool if it happens!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 18:27:43
May have to buy into this one myself.  Looking over at MOZ's blox project - great idea but seems a like lot more work to implement.  This is just a large sized board, which is not at all like anything I have been thinking of myself......  ;)

(http://s3.postimg.org/5yzxg1l5f/Opt3.png)

(http://s3.postimg.org/5ijb7cms3/Opt2.png)

(http://s14.postimg.org/ly2s2bb01/key1.jpg)


Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 21 August 2014, 18:44:07
May have to buy into this one myself.  Looking over at MOZ's blox project - great idea but seems a like lot more work to implement.  This is just a large sized board, which is not at all like anything I have been thinking of myself......  ;)

Show Image
(http://s3.postimg.org/5yzxg1l5f/Opt3.png)


Show Image
(http://s3.postimg.org/5ijb7cms3/Opt2.png)


Show Image
(http://s14.postimg.org/ly2s2bb01/key1.jpg)





Looks to me like you have it handled. Get a plate cut, get 120 Enabler PCBs from Melvang, switches, and a Teensy. Voila!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Thu, 21 August 2014, 23:05:54
If it's ALPS-ready, I'd rather have this than the GH36, the product I was currently waiting on.  A macro-board is nice, but it's fundamentally an extra "thing" -- an extra USB port consumed, an extra cable to run, an extra unit to malfunction.  Baking it all together in a single unit (or even a single plate with two PCBs attached) offers a much better experience.

The Enabler, I still don't quite get what advantage it offers over direct wiring, assuming you don't want backlit.

Ponderable:  I assume that PCB stuff is priced by square centimetre and manufactured by the "sheet"... so presumably it doesn't take many of these boards to make up a "sheet" run.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 00:27:09
I followed the Matias blueprints, so the pads should fit. I don't know anything about Alps stabilizers, so that will be up to you.  Also, I had to rotate the ISO enter switch, so I have no idea if that will work with Alps keycaps.

Regardless, this is going to be one huge board.  Assuming it works and we can get cases and firmware for the Teensy++.  😉 :cool:

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 08:52:30
May have to buy into this one myself.  Looking over at MOZ's blox project - great idea but seems a like lot more work to implement.  This is just a large sized board, which is not at all like anything I have been thinking of myself......  ;)

Show Image
(http://s3.postimg.org/5yzxg1l5f/Opt3.png)


Show Image
(http://s3.postimg.org/5ijb7cms3/Opt2.png)


Show Image
(http://s14.postimg.org/ly2s2bb01/key1.jpg)


Hmmm.  Looks like a job for a Ducky 108 plus two columns of a GH-36.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 22 August 2014, 08:57:59
I followed the Matias blueprints, so the pads should fit. I don't know anything about Alps stabilizers, so that will be up to you.  Also, I had to rotate the ISO enter switch, so I have no idea if that will work with Alps keycaps.

Regardless, this is going to be one huge board.  Assuming it works and we can get cases and firmware for the Teensy++.  😉 :cool:

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I don't think firmware will be a big issue. Most common firmwares can likely be modified to work, since the Teensy++ uses the same ATmega32U4 chip.

Don't forget to include the 2x keys for the number pad. You can rotate those also, if you need. :)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 09:08:02

I don't think firmware will be a big issue. Most common firmwares can likely be modified to work, since the Teensy++ uses the same ATmega32U4 chip.

Don't forget to include the 2x keys for the number pad. You can rotate those also, if you need. :)

Thanks!  I did forget the numpad!  Easier than the ISO Enter key, anyhow.

Here is a fun fact:  running the circuit trace test function crashed my Windows VM with an OOM error.  Lost some work, grr.  Looks like I may need to run the PCB design program on my gaming box!  (This has never been a problem doing PCB layouts for normal-size keyboards.)

Back to checking my traces!  Let's see if it will fit in the maximum 3.5GB I can allocate to this 32-bit VM.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 10:05:04
Update:  Ran fine under 3.5GB, so here is the fully-traced PCB, including 2x positions on the numpad PLUS the top-left keypair for that Sun look:

[attach=1]
GH-122 PCB Pre-Proto v140821F5 by samwisekoi 2014

For this version I added pads and cut lines for the upper function-key section.  I will likely change those to a cable, but as-is, it can be cut and bent using simple jumper wires between the pads above and below the cut line.  The RH and LH sections can be cut off, but I have not yet worked out exactly where to cut.  I will do that and add those cut lines in the next major revision.  Cutting off the numpad will require some care, but is certainly do-able.

On to the Teensy++ daughter board, and possibly some in-switch LEDs.

If you see anything wrong, please, please let me know!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  The main section of the board is 19.25" wide and 4.60" tall.  The horizontal spacing between sections is 0.250" and the vertical spacing to the upper section is 0.750" (one switch position.)  At some point I will add mounting/support holes at the edges and in the switch areas as well.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 22 August 2014, 10:20:57
I would be interested in this if made the PCB to fit Cherry G80-2000 series. Would be nice replacement for those PCB to fix the numerous issues they have like bigass enter, or ISO enter, or only 2KRO... etc.
(http://utensilia.tk/urzadzenia/cherry_g80-2500hau/6.jpg)

Adding support for JIS layout would also be very nice.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 10:24:47
I would be interested in this if made the PCB to fit Cherry G80-2000 series. Would be nice replacement for those PCB to fix the numerous issues they have like bigass enter, or ISO enter, or only 2KRO... etc.

Adding support for JIS layout would also be very nice.

Send me some specific measurements and I'll see what I can do!  Spacing and mounting holes in particular.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: absyrd on Fri, 22 August 2014, 10:24:49
I would be interested in this if made the PCB to fit Cherry G80-2000 series. Would be nice replacement for those PCB to fix the numerous issues they have like bigass enter, or ISO enter, or only 2KRO... etc.

How easy are the g80-2000s to get? Assuming you were just hunting for case material...

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 22 August 2014, 10:49:11

The Enabler, I still don't quite get what advantage it offers over direct wiring, assuming you don't want backlit.


The advantage is you have easy switch modding without paying for the extra machine time for cutouts in the plate.  Using stock plates in a stock case you have it.  The reason is you can just pull the switch and pcb out through the mount hole (Enablers will fit through both MX and Alps switch holes just fine) while all solder points are still connected.  The wires just come with the switch.  Then you can mod your switch and just push it back into place.  No soldering required and plates are cheaper.  Plus, you don't have to pay for all the space between switches.  For a medium run pricing of 150 square inches from osh park the price is only $0.25 pre switch.  So for 123 keys (if you need to order in multiples of 3 for medium run) it would only be $30.75 + shipping.  Granted you need to get 600 of them for medium run pricing.  But if you are under that area break it would be $153.75.  So, you would actually be cheaper to order 600 of them to hit the medium run pricing (small run $5/sq. in. vs medium run $1/sq. in.).
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 22 August 2014, 11:45:40
I will see what I can do, but I am not terrific about measure things accurately.

There are several different models in 2000 family. Some are extremely hard to get, others not too much like 2551 and 2500 are probably most common.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Fri, 22 August 2014, 11:54:12
This sounds like something I can get behind.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 12:08:24
I will see what I can do, but I am not terrific about measure things accurately.

There are several different models in 2000 family. Some are extremely hard to get, others not too much like 2551 and 2500 are probably most common.

Really the most critical dimensions to make the new PCB fit into the old case are the spacings between the sections.  The rest we can finagle.  So, for example, are the horizontal gaps between the right edge of the 1.500" Backspace key position and the left edge of the 0.750" Insert key position 0.1875" (1/4 of a switch position), 0.375" (half a switch position) or something else?

Similarly, is the vertical gap between top edge of the 0.750"  2@ key and the bottom edge of the F1 key position a full 0.750" (one switch position) or something else?

I have a G80-3700 and some ML full-size, so I could measure those, but it would be better to measure the PCB of a G80-2000 keyboard.  Specifically between the center of one mount hole to the center of the adjacent one.

If you want to send me an example keyboard or PCB, I'll take some measurements and send it back.  Probably unharmed.

Otherwise, you could measure the distance from the top edge of the 2@ keycap and the F1 keycap, and then between the right edge of the |\ keycap and the Delete keycap, those two dimensions will be a good start.

FYI, on my G80-370, the distance between the top of the NumLock keycap and the top of the Escape keycap is 1.500", so the gap is 0.750", or one switch position exactly.

Is any of the above do-able?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: xavierblak on Fri, 22 August 2014, 12:16:56
Another option for a compatible case might be the the Chyron keyboards (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=chryon+keyboard&_osacat=0&_from=R40|R40&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xchyron+keyboard&_nkw=chyron+keyboard&_sacat=0). There are always a few available on ebay. They aren't all cherry keyboards but the cases look like they might be same.

I have a cherry one if you are interested in measurements.

(http://i.imgur.com/i2xNF8a.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Fri, 22 August 2014, 12:18:41
This might be a stupid suggestion, but have we thought about talking to Unicomp about what their 122 key cases would cost?

We don't need barrels or whatever, but just the outer plastic. Mount it all to a steel plate (and the bend could be in the plate!) and then add pcbs.

I also don't even solder, so if this is a stupid idea, well, ignore it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 22 August 2014, 12:34:41
This is another gem of a project from you, Ron, it's my bad luck that it comes at this point, when I am super busy in RL, which is why I have had to put Blox on the back-burner for now.

I wish for the project to be fruitful, and I'll be keenly watching in what direction it goes. I hope at the end of this project and the GH36, the PCB files will be made available, for those of us who would like to build on it in the future.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 22 August 2014, 14:27:08
Yes, the Chyron and Grass Valley ones also have the same dimensions as the G80-2000 series on the main PCB which I am pretty sure is .5 units between sections, though their separate function row PCB are different. I can measure the case shell holes later on when I can find a long enough screwdriver to open the damn thing again.

So otherwise my wishlist is PCB mount stabs, and JIS support with 2.75 space and at least 2 extra mods keys on the bottom row on each side of space since all the other keys for JIS you already have done.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 22 August 2014, 15:46:22
This might be a stupid suggestion, but have we thought about talking to Unicomp about what their 122 key cases would cost?

We don't need barrels or whatever, but just the outer plastic. Mount it all to a steel plate (and the bend could be in the plate!) and then add pcbs.

I also don't even solder, so if this is a stupid idea, well, ignore it.

Any case from Unicomp is $20.  But using a Unicomp 122 case would (likely) require a bent PCB / plate.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Fri, 22 August 2014, 16:17:03
This might be a stupid suggestion, but have we thought about talking to Unicomp about what their 122 key cases would cost?

We don't need barrels or whatever, but just the outer plastic. Mount it all to a steel plate (and the bend could be in the plate!) and then add pcbs.

I also don't even solder, so if this is a stupid idea, well, ignore it.

Any case from Unicomp is $20.  But using a Unicomp 122 case would (likely) require a bent PCB / plate.

That sounds like a good thing. An unlimited number of known-quality cases with out us all bidding up the same auctions on Ebay.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 16:37:03
Unicomp 122 cases is a brilliant suggestion!  $31 buys a case, the proper IBM-style LED cover, and ground shipping.  Probably in a big-ass box as well.

Ordered.  For $31, it is worth a try.  Mine will be in proper Pearl and Pebble.

Oh, the Teensy++ isn't done, but the dang ribbon cables are.  Those were much harder than I expected!

[attach=1]
Yet another GH-122 layout, now with ribbon cable pads!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I have lots of room in the bottom, so I'll add the JIS keys once I find a good sample.  If you can provide the 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1 - 2.75 - 1 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 (or whatever), that would be plenty.

p.p.s.  Also, I will attempt to get PCB stabilizer holes in place.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 17:21:55
I followed the Matias blueprints, so the pads should fit. I don't know anything about Alps stabilizers, so that will be up to you.  Also, I had to rotate the ISO enter switch, so I have no idea if that will work with Alps keycaps.

Regardless, this is going to be one huge board.  Assuming it works and we can get cases and firmware for the Teensy++.  😉 :cool:

 - Ron | samwisekoi
soarer's controller code will run on T++ so we can use that for sure.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Fri, 22 August 2014, 17:36:21
wow this is moving pretty quick, what sort of case did you envision for this Samwise?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 22 August 2014, 18:09:58
soarer's controller code will run on T++ so we can use that for sure.
[/quote]

I was just looking up this fine piece of software. I see it supports multiple layers but couldn't find any examples of same. How do soarer's layers work?

Of course, with 122-ish keys, there's nearly no need for alternate layers as even mousing and media keys could be added into layer one without too much crowding.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:16:33
wow this is moving pretty quick, what sort of case did you envision for this Samwise?

Metal.  Heavy metal.  A big chunk of CNC-machined aluminum sounds like the right thing to do.

Initially, I am going to see if I can fit it into the Unicomp case mentioned above.

Some pics...

[attach=1]
GH-122 Controller Daughter PCB by samwisekoi 2014

So the controller is laid out.  Teensy++, two ribbon cables, three LEDs and resistors, expansion pads for NUM, CAPS and LED1-3 (PWM) and useable attached or cut off.

[attach=2]
GH-122 Pre-Proto PCB v140821g3 by samwisekoi 2014

The main PCB now has cut lines for everywhere cuts should be made.  I have not yet added JIS or stabilizer mounts.  (I might have to remove ISO support to add the stab holes.)  There are LED pads and resistor pads at every switch location, but I have not (and probably will not) run traces or added any kind of LED control circuits to the main board.  However, all of the pins and pads are labeled for the builder to add LED support if he or she desires.  The three LEDs in the upper right corner are good enough for me.

I think that is enough for today.  In a couple of days we've gone from a random "what if" question to a nearly complete PCB.  Not bad for a quick project.

I am happy to send soft copies to interested people that I know.  Please PM me if interested.

Thanks everyone for your input and support!

Now, please go order some Nuclear Data Green SA keycaps if you haven't already!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 20:42:39
soarer's controller code will run on T++ so we can use that for sure.

I was just looking up this fine piece of software. I see it supports multiple layers but couldn't find any examples of same. How do soarer's layers work?

Of course, with 122-ish keys, there's nearly no need for alternate layers as even mousing and media keys could be added into layer one without too much crowding.
You can assign a key (or combination of keys ) to a FN layer and then define a remapblock for that function layer. Then when the FN key is pressed (or held down, depending on how you want to do it) the keys are "remapped" to the new layer. I really like it.

I'm using that functionality right now to make my wyse KB qwerty / dvorak swappable. I just press the key next to backspace and it swaps it. works great. You can also have funcion keys that work as normal. I have fn+1 = F1 , etc.

The main PCB now has cut lines for everywhere cuts should be made. 


I was thinking about that and it looks like cutting off the arrowkeys would be pretty tough. I'm not sure if I want to do that, but the "unsaver" that wcass set up was made like that.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 21:06:14
No, only the top, left, and rightmost blocks can be cut off.

But why? Then you'd have a Phantom!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 22 August 2014, 21:15:50
No, only the top, left, and rightmost blocks can be cut off.

But why? Then you'd have a Phantom!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I'm trying to find out who it was. They had the 24-function keys and 10 on the left still there, but everything after backsapce and enter was cut off. The case was painted blue. I really liked the layout.

edit: found it
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34887.0;attach=2655;image)

it was wcass of course
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34887.msg645627#msg645627
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 22 August 2014, 22:18:18
Yes. Nice. I'll see what I can do.

  - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 22 August 2014, 22:56:50
If you slice off the editing block, the controller has to go somewhere else... so we can assume those users will be on ribbon cables 100% of the time.

The issue is that the cut would have to go somewhere in the middle of the second ribbon cable connector.

Why not run a second instance of that connector, say, above ~, 1, and 2?  Wire it to the same lines as the ones that would be endangered by the cut.   I think really, you'd only need the first six or seven of the lines from the second ribbon cable to be actually carried over there.  Everything after that is exclusively numpad and editing block territory, it looks like.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 23 August 2014, 09:21:19
If you slice off the editing block, the controller has to go somewhere else... so we can assume those users will be on ribbon cables 100% of the time.

The issue is that the cut would have to go somewhere in the middle of the second ribbon cable connector.

Why not run a second instance of that connector, say, above ~, 1, and 2?  Wire it to the same lines as the ones that would be endangered by the cut.   I think really, you'd only need the first six or seven of the lines from the second ribbon cable to be actually carried over there.  Everything after that is exclusively numpad and editing block territory, it looks like.

Yup, and most of the lines are already on the cable to the upper bank.

So, ok, but first stabiliizers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: bazh on Sat, 23 August 2014, 12:14:22
why don't just keep it long :p

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5OVgxNjAw/z/lT4AAOSwq7JT0sHh/$_57.JPG)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: nathanrosspowell on Sat, 23 August 2014, 12:59:42
I love the mental image of this giant board with the Nuclear Green set on it!

I'm not sure if it's something I could justify backing, but best of luck with bringing the idea to life.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 23 August 2014, 14:01:17
I think stabilizer-wise, plate mount might be the best choice:

1.  You don't have to put more holes in an already crowded PCB. I know a lot of the more ambitious "it's ANSI and ISO and supports twelve different stabilizer types" PCBs had issues where they ran into space pinches trying to fit the PCB-mount stabilizer holes into the design.  Hell, you might be able to remove the mounting holes for PCB mounted switches for simpler production and greater stiffness.

2. With Costar stabilizers, You can hack them to use with ALPS-style stabilized keys.  See http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57458.msg1306191#msg1306191 This feature shuts up that crowd without any extra effort.

Admittedly, this does punt some of the "ten thousand stabilizer holes" problem to the plate makers, but I think it's reasonable to have seperate ANSI and ISO plates.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 23 August 2014, 14:35:20
OK.  Done.  (Or nearly done.)

Controller daughter card complete with some added functions for LEDs AND some pre-drilled holes for additional prototyping.  (e.g. a few transistors to power LED strings.)  That version was frozen at v140821h4, and is so labelled.  Also ti was widened by 0.250" and 6/32 or 3mm mounting holes added at all four corners.

[attach=1]
GH-122 Controller PCB by samwisekoi 2014

The main board went through a bunch of changes, and with the exception of errors, general cleanup, and possibly altering the section spacing to match Cherry or Unicomp cases, the design is fixed.  JIS, extra cut lines, or an extra connector set did not make it in for this round.

What did make it in was:

 - PCB-mount stabilizers for ANSI and Winkeyless ANSI switch positions.
 - A three-LED section above the numpad to match the layout of the IBM keycaps.
 - Improvements to many of the traces, including safer free zones around the cut lines.

For spacebar stabilizer spacing, I went with 50mm for the 6.25 spacebar and 2.500" for the 7.00 spacebar.  I used the DT wiki for the measurements, so please advise if these are the wrong spacings.

[attach=2]
GH-122 Near-final Prototype by samwisekoi 2014

Remaining to do for this version:

 - Label all switch positions (e.g. R3C17).
 - Add mounting holes for the main board.
 - Increase horizontal spacing between sections once I have specific information to do so.

Still getting a price estimate of $59.75 each for qty=10.   :thumb:

My JD40 comes in today, and the prototype GH-36 PCBs come in this week, so I am about out of time to work on this design.

One more design pass and then we'll see about getting some made.

Thanks to one and all!

 - Ron | samwisekoi


Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 23 August 2014, 21:43:53
OK.  Done.

 - Label all switch positions (e.g. R3C17). [DONE]
 - Add mounting holes for the main board. [DONE]
 - Increase horizontal spacing between sections once I have specific information to do so. [SEE BELOW]
 + Added ground plane around the board and to all LED resistors.
 + Added traces to the LED pads on the board for NUMLOCK and CAPSLOCK LEDs.
 + Added PCB stabilizer mounts for the ISO Enter key.
 + Added a big ol' "geekhack.org" logo to the silkscreen, since that is apparently the done thing now.

Horizontal Spacing:


I am at the office (where my JD40 kit isn't) and measured the spaces between sections on my Model M.  Just about 0.333", as they like to make switches in thirds.  The space where the Windows key isn't measures 0.67" and they call the Ctrl and Alt keys "one and one-third" keyspaces.  The vertical distance between 2@ and F1 is .77, or just over one switch unit.  I replicated the measurements on an IBM terminal board as well.

The upshot of that is one-third gaps that are unlikely to work on any Cherry case, although if we use the Cherry 0.375" gaps, the PCB  will probably be fine in either case.  Hopefully Ivan (or someone) will be able to validate the measurements on Cherry cases.

Then I measured the gaps on multiple modern 104-key keyboards (Filco, WASD, Rosewill) and they are all less than the IBM, at about 0.25" or so.  I have no relevant Cherry keyboards.

As the design sits right now, the board is done with 0.250" horizontal gaps between sections.  I could leave it there or make the gaps wider.

Thoughts, anyone?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Sun, 24 August 2014, 00:34:00
this is one insane board... and i'm interested.
one question: would the numpad section allow 2u for both plus and enter?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Flamingchook on Sun, 24 August 2014, 02:16:59
this is one insane board... and i'm interested.
one question: would the numpad section allow 2u for both plus and enter?


bianco raises a good point, it looks like the intermediary hole for the 2u "+" switch on the number pad is placed in the wrong spot.

Good work none the less samwise! I'm definitely interested in picking one of these up if a small buy is made available. Just for the sake of having a stupidly large custom keyboard.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 24 August 2014, 02:56:56
I think when it's ready to open, it might be worth asking if there are price breaks at more than ten units, and possibly also posting something to DT and maybe some of the Korean forums.  I don't think anyone's ever done a custom larger than a 101-104-108 key layout before, so there might be global demand, and the more people you can talk into it, the cheaper it's likely to be per unit.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 24 August 2014, 07:53:15
this is one insane board... and i'm interested.
one question: would the numpad section allow 2u for both plus and enter?


bianco raises a good point, it looks like the intermediary hole for the 2u "+" switch on the number pad is placed in the wrong spot.

Good work none the less samwise! I'm definitely interested in picking one of these up if a small buy is made available. Just for the sake of having a stupidly large custom keyboard.


this is one insane board... and i'm interested.
one question: would the numpad section allow 2u for both plus and enter?


Ouch!  Mistake, mistake!  Fixed.  Thanks!

I think when it's ready to open, it might be worth asking if there are price breaks at more than ten units, and possibly also posting something to DT and maybe some of the Korean forums.  I don't think anyone's ever done a custom larger than a 101-104-108 key layout before, so there might be global demand, and the more people you can talk into it, the cheaper it's likely to be per unit.

Can do, although there needs to be a prototype round anyhow, so some people are going to get these first few anyhow.

I try and find the low point in price per board for prototype runs; five or ten hobbyists and it can be done.  More than that and it becomes a group buy, and I have Nuclear Data Green now, and probably some number of GH-36 as a group buy after that.  Also, at any kind of volume, people are going to demand factory-installed SMD components and full backlighting, and that was what killed the fun (for me) of the more modular GH-75 design.

So for now, if enough people want to build one of these as a prototype, I am happy to have spent a week on the design.  After that?  Sure, we can do a bigger round.

But in the meantime, let's decide on spacing and all go buy some Nuclear Data Green keycaps -- the Official Keycap of the GH-122!

Thanks all,

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 24 August 2014, 08:40:18
Cherry have 1cm space between each section. I measured that from outside edge of keycap to next outside edge of keycap. I still haven't been able to get case open again. It has these really deep latches that are really stubborn. But, I am concerned about where holes would be on pcb so case can close vs all those traces you have on the top of the pcb.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 24 August 2014, 09:01:06
Cherry have 1cm space between each section. I measured that from outside edge of keycap to next outside edge of keycap. I still haven't been able to get case open again. It has these really deep latches that are really stubborn. But, I am concerned about where holes would be on pcb so case can close vs all those traces you have on the top of the pcb.

Thank you.  Can you measure from the right edge of the Backspace keycap to the right edge of the Insert keycap?  That way I can eliminate the variability of keycap width.  (That measurement minus 0.750" will be the extra space in the gap between columns.)

Imperial or Metric measurements are fine.

Also, if you can point me to a really good top-down  image of the PCB I can probably work out the mounting holes from there.

Thanks again!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 24 August 2014, 10:26:15
In the 2x5 breakaway board on the left side, where you have stabilizers for a 2x width key on the top - you could probably just leave that as 2 single keys.  Would only look like a Sun Type 6/7 board if you added a 2x width key above the 2x5 pack, in line with the bottom function row.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: Parak on Sun, 24 August 2014, 10:32:49
Those pcb prices are sort of insane. If you're exporting regular gerbers, look at a china pcb fab like sitopway (I used them a few times) to get better quotes on prototype and production runs...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:04:46
In the 2x5 breakaway board on the left side, where you have stabilizers for a 2x width key on the top - you could probably just leave that as 2 single keys.  Would only look like a Sun Type 6/7 board if you added a 2x width key above the 2x5 pack, in line with the bottom function row.

Yes, okay.  It might be interesting to have a pair or quad up there anyhow.

Meantime, this is what I think I shall do for a case.  This is just the face plate.  Made from 0.125" stainless and bent up just below the function keys and bent down (to vertical) above them, it will (IMHO) make a nice top plate.  Matching metal bottom plate with (possibly) translucent sides for a subtle lighting effect.  And a whole bunch of weight.  Perhaps painted a nice industrial color, or even wrinkle-finish Engine Enamel.

Oh, and it will fit, fully assembled, into a USPS Game Box.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 24 August 2014, 13:15:18
In the 2x5 breakaway board on the left side, where you have stabilizers for a 2x width key on the top - you could probably just leave that as 2 single keys.  Would only look like a Sun Type 6/7 board if you added a 2x width key above the 2x5 pack, in line with the bottom function row.

Yes, okay.  It might be interesting to have a pair or quad up there anyhow.

Meantime, this is what I think I shall do for a case.  This is just the face plate.  Made from 0.125" stainless and bent up just below the function keys and bent down (to vertical) above them, it will (IMHO) make a nice top plate.  Matching metal bottom plate with (possibly) translucent sides for a subtle lighting effect.  And a whole bunch of weight.  Perhaps painted a nice industrial color, or even wrinkle-finish Engine Enamel.

Oh, and it will fit, fully assembled, into a USPS Game Box.

 - Ron | samwisekoi


I will be wiring up RGBLEDs to the lock indicator lights through a transistor if this case ever gets made with a clear sidepanel.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 24 August 2014, 16:41:28
Case face looks good.  Would imagine each of us would have to get one cut in the specific desired layout though.  Like reverse T arrows instead of the + pack, or the left block removed, function block removed, etc.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 24 August 2014, 20:24:55
I truly hope this is the last rev of this board.

NOTE:  Backlighting and/or traces for backlighting are not part of the design spec of this board.  However, in all the places where they wouldn't cause re-routing of keyswitch traces, you may find traces for LEDs and related resistors.  Not control circuits, mind you, but 150 of the tedious lines manual backlighting would require.  The other 75 or so are up to the user.

Other than that, this has better mounting holes, slightly altered ribbon mounts, and everything fixed that I am aware of needing fixing.

No warranty is expressed or implied.  This was a good faith effort, but it is a prototype, and post-production fixes may be required.  Also, no firmware will be provided by me in any shape or form.  Others are better at such tasks than I.

But the question comes upon us now...

Are there four or more people who would like to own one of these beasts for production cost plus taxes and shipping?

Reply here or in a PM if you are interested!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 24 August 2014, 20:33:25
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)


Wait - I missed this.

Did you just whip together a plate design?

You da man!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sun, 24 August 2014, 20:41:21
I love that face plate, but i thought Sam said the Nav cluster was just gonna be a 3 x 5 cluster to allow for full + or T shapes

Also i dont just want one Sam, but i NEED one of these!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 24 August 2014, 20:46:43
NOTE:  Backlighting and/or traces for backlighting are not part of the design spec of this board.  However, in all the places where they wouldn't cause re-routing of keyswitch traces, you may find traces for LEDs and related resistors.  Not control circuits, mind you, but 150 of the tedious lines manual backlighting would require.  The other 75 or so are up to the user.


Oh awesome, that'll save a lot of time for people like me.

You can just jumper the indicator lights to each "section" of the LED matrix through a transistor and call it good. Then you'd just need to tell the firmware to keep the light on when you tell it to instead of for actual capslock / scrolllock/numlock usage. Alternatively just wire it up with a toggle switch (drilling a hole in the case for a toggle switch is pretty normal I'd think for a KB this size / type) to the 5V line directly.

I think we should combine these two ideas:
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62003.0;attach=75485;image)
to make a less-expensive but still awesome case.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 24 August 2014, 21:13:16
Totally in for this. I'd prefer a more ANSI-like layout, but you can always include options. :)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/UoVc6Xq.png)


Wait - I missed this.

Did you just whip together a plate design?

You da man!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Yeah, man, I can whip out plate designs pretty fast. If you want me to make the mounting plate layer for your metal case, I just need to know the measurements between sections, where the screw holes will be, etc. I can get the direction for the stabilizers from the PCB mockup.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 24 August 2014, 21:42:53
Definitly interested... ready to throw money at you.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Sun, 24 August 2014, 23:28:47
I'm hovering right at the edge. I don't need this and honestly it might never see the light of day -- it would suck down so many key switches!

But ... no layers, y'know? Totally the opposite end of the spectrum from a 60%, it has more keys than you could ever wish for.

I'm saying no ... with reservations.

EDIT: I shouldn't need to say this, but whoever all goes into this project needs to be sure they're buying the nuclear green keys. This needs the nuclear-green keyset. Not rainbow sherbert, not dull office gray; this is the layout of the near-apocolypse and should be adorned respectfully as such.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Mon, 25 August 2014, 00:39:08
Actually, I think dull two-tone grey also works well... this is the GH answer to the IBM 122-key, the Focus 9000, the G80-2000 family... all those OG battleship boards, which made their appearance long before "custom keycaps in any colour and symbols you could want" were a thing.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 25 August 2014, 13:51:17
I'm totally interested.  I might not end up using it all the time, I'm not even sure if it will fit on my tiny desk, but damn it just looks like such a glorious thing and too interesting to pass up.

So I want to get in on this project.   :thumb:
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 25 August 2014, 15:07:32
This is the list of people who have formally signed up.  We have eight now, so this is a GO.
(In order of formal response.)

samwisekoi
SL89
Hak Foo
HoffmanMyster
jdcarpe
0100010
bianco
Ishamael

I think I'll embed the prototypers list in silkscreen for all eternity.

My plan is to wait until the Unicomp 122 case arrives, then take some measurements  and do a mechanical refresh if it can be made to work.  Then I will do a call for PayPal and place the order.

In the meantime I've ordered a Teensy++ just because.

FYI to all,

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 25 August 2014, 15:09:59
Well, I'm in. Sorry, thought you knew that already. :)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 25 August 2014, 18:14:44
Add me to the prototype list as well.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Mon, 25 August 2014, 19:14:51
i'm definitely in
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Mon, 25 August 2014, 23:08:58
I just spent my evening desoldering Matias switches from my now officially defunct Ducky 1008XM, so as to boost my stockpile to sufficient levels for this project.  Don't let me down.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Mon, 25 August 2014, 23:49:38
hopefully i'll have some experience soldering some things before i assemble this masterpiece, i am so happy to be on the list.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 26 August 2014, 01:03:16
How about something like this for a case+plate thing?

Obviously, I've used jdcarpe's design as a reference... the point is more to demonstrate the overall design concept, so no measurements are final.

(http://i.imgur.com/NDO5qwR.png)

LED holes obviously needed, and possibly a cutaway to access the Teensy.

The idea is just to add a tiny bit of extra material on the sides, and then bend it twice on each side.  You can either then attach feet directly to the bottom ridge, or bolt a "bottom plate" to those four holes.

Potentially, cuts could be made to have the upper 24 keys at an angle.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 26 August 2014, 02:27:34
The bottom edge bends should probably not be parallel to the bends that form the sides, that way the top face of the plate is angled slightly.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Tue, 26 August 2014, 07:48:22
How about something like this for a case+plate thing?

Obviously, I've used jdcarpe's design as a reference... the point is more to demonstrate the overall design concept, so no measurements are final.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/NDO5qwR.png)


LED holes obviously needed, and possibly a cutaway to access the Teensy.

The idea is just to add a tiny bit of extra material on the sides, and then bend it twice on each side.  You can either then attach feet directly to the bottom ridge, or bolt a "bottom plate" to those four holes.

Potentially, cuts could be made to have the upper 24 keys at an angle.

nice! i like the case+plate concept.
however, would there be possibility of flex in the middle?
especially with heavy handed typists?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 26 August 2014, 08:55:03
Yeah, I have the same concern, since it is so large, there can be flex, however, if we move the bent "feets" to the top and bottom, that should solve the issue.

Basically take this design:
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=62003.0;attach=75485;image)
And instead of the large cutouts, have switch holes and extra space on the top and bottom, where the plate would bend.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 10:10:14
Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.  One is a Poker X, and the other a hard-wired 75% similar to the Epsilon.  Based on how those feel in use, I would not recommend that design for such a massive keyboard.  However, if you did want to do that, then MOZ has the right idea.  Once we get the mechanicals locked, I'll work with jdcarpe to expand the plate with front and back flanges and the tiny notches the machine shop needs to use as bending guides.

(I can post some pictures of my actual "cases" details, if anyone wants to see them up close.)

In other news, I am considering adding GH-122 and JD40 expansion kits to Nuclear Data Green.  JD40 is harder because of the necessary flexibility of the design.  However, the only problem with a GH-122 is having enough keycaps.  Imagining what I'd want to actually add to my keyboard to make it more useful than the Model M it would replace, I come up with the attached layout.  (The quad-arrow key would really function as a down-arrow to enable an inverted-T cluster.

I added eight macro keycaps and  the undo-cut-copy-paste set that the old Macintosh Extended Keyboards had.

Thoughts on any of the above?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I might prefer the look of an ISO Return key, but probably not the feel.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 26 August 2014, 10:44:48
Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:03:51
although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Ishamael on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:07:11
Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:11:37
Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes, but they are very costly at low volume.  The Nuclear Data Green set is so  inexpensive because almost the entire set uses the same mold (SA 1x Semi-Matte Row 3 White on Green) so the volumes for keycaps made with that one mold are huge.  If we jump to a different mold, costs go way up.

So the 15-key Numbers Kit costs $6 for all 15 keycaps.  For MOQ=25 keycaps (with clear tops) each Relegendable is $5.  Even at MOQ=250, each Relegendable is $1.

So an M1-M12 set would be $5+/- at MOQ=25, but a 12-keycap package of Relegendables would be $12 at MOQ=25 sets.

I could add any combination of these and the only question becomes whether any make MOQ at those prices.

Thoughts, anyone?

I'll cross-post this question in the GB thread as well.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:14:32
although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?


Yup.  Totally supported.  Go crazy!

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes; see above for pricing considerations.

Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.

You are in and we are up to eight, so this is definitely a go.

Now all I am waiting for is the Unicomp 122 case to see if that is a viable option ($20 each!).

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Ishamael on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:19:50
although i do understand that the layout was based on an existing keyboard (that i'm honestly not familiar with)...
i'm looking at soldering switches on all the available 'holes' (like in Hak Foo's plate)... is this possible?


Yup.  Totally supported.  Go crazy!

Does SP have SA relegendables? Those would be awesome.

Yes; see above for pricing considerations.

Depending on the cost, if you need another prototype tester, I could be in. I find this idea awesome.

You are in and we are up to eight, so this is definitely a go.

Now all I am waiting for is the Unicomp 122 case to see if that is a viable option ($20 each!).

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What's the buy in cost estimated to be? Money is kinda tight at the moment, so I have to be careful.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:35:45
PCB cost will be my cost plus shipping (to me and from me to you.)

So, if we hit 10 boards, that would be $60 for the board, call it $2 each to ship to me, $20 each to pack it in a game box and Priority Mail it within CONUS.  Plus another $3 for the PayPal surcharge and we hit a total of $85 to someone in the USA.

That, of course, does not count the Teensy++ ($27), diodes (cheap), or 125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).  Or keycaps ($75 for Nuclear Green Base Kit plus 22 1x blanks).  Or a case, although I am going to try and make it fit into the $20 Unicomp 122 case.

Does that answer your question?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 26 August 2014, 11:54:46
125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).

Or depending on preferred switch type you can buy genuine cherry switches from http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=43 at ~$0.50 each, the biggest pack is only 110 but I bet if you ask nicely they would accomodate a few more to get 125 at the same price per switch.
Title: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Ishamael on Tue, 26 August 2014, 12:01:38
Definitely answers my question, thanks! I'll have to be tentative at this point, and double check the money situation to see whether swinging this is possible.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 12:06:12
125 switches ($45 from Techkeys.us; more from Mouser).

Or depending on preferred switch type you can buy genuine cherry switches from http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=43 at ~$0.50 each, the biggest pack is only 110 but I bet if you ask nicely they would accomodate a few more to get 125 at the same price per switch.

Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Definitely answers my question, thanks! I'll have to be tentative at this point, and double check the money situation to see whether swinging this is possible.

Do the right thing for you!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 26 August 2014, 12:08:56
Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Are those 'brand new' genuine cherry switches?? Somehow I don't believe it at $0.30 each. There were some quality issues at one time also, not sure if those were isolated incidents or not.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 12:35:55
Good source.  Also, Techkeys has gen-u-ine Cherry in Black and Red.

Are those 'brand new' genuine cherry switches?? Somehow I don't believe it at $0.30 each. There were some quality issues at one time also, not sure if those were isolated incidents or not.

I just ordered some, so will report back either way.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Dubsgalore on Tue, 26 August 2014, 12:39:18
I'd be in for ansi/1.5 bottom row and if it could fit the 2000 series. I was going to get an ISO 2100 modded to ansi but if this was designed to fit into place in the 2100 case and was ansi it would solve a lot of problems for me :)) (ansi 2100s are a lot of fun)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: pasph on Tue, 26 August 2014, 13:46:19
I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 26 August 2014, 13:50:30
I'd be in for ansi/1.5 bottom row and if it could fit the 2000 series. I was going to get an ISO 2100 modded to ansi but if this was designed to fit into place in the 2100 case and was ansi it would solve a lot of problems for me :)) (ansi 2100s are a lot of fun)

I need a Cherry case to make that happen.  If it can be done to fit both the Unicomp 122 and the Cherry 122, then I am more than willing to do so.

But I will need to borrow a case to take careful measurements.

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me

Up to DV, but I am happy to send him your PCB if that is the agreed path.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 26 August 2014, 14:00:34
Quote from: jpz;357640
Yeah your completely correct you should at least meet their tolerances.  Why did you choose 6061 aluminum?

It's light and stiff and I want to keep the weight down for the portability.

Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.
They were used by dox in his original DoxKB in 2011 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19227.0). You independently invented them, but they are not your original design.

Sadly the pictures were lost. I think the solidworks file he has there is the right one, but I can't view it to make sure.
I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me
I will give you a discount because I really want to assemble one.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 26 August 2014, 14:12:06
Only comment is if you do make a GH-122 nuclear green set - I already bought the 116 key set plus about 5 other sets to get all the keys I needed.  :confused:

I am also going to name my GH-122 'The Green Monster'; nuclear green caps on Cherry MX Green switches.  Will have to think about what color to paint the plate / case.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: pasph on Tue, 26 August 2014, 15:40:53
Quote from: jpz;357640
Yeah your completely correct you should at least meet their tolerances.  Why did you choose 6061 aluminum?

Hmmm.  Those bent-plate "cases" were originally a samwisekoi design, and I have a couple live and useable now.

I can be in if Dorkvader can assembly it for me
I will give you a discount because I really want to assemble one.
My lucky day
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: mrklaw on Tue, 26 August 2014, 17:21:45
Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 26 August 2014, 19:16:31
Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.

Keep in mind that this will use cherry (or ALPS) switches which are different than IBM ones. It'll make a great keyboard though
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: mrklaw on Tue, 26 August 2014, 23:45:14
Count me in for one. I'd like to build one of these too. I've been looking for an F-122 on ebay but building my own is even better.

Keep in mind that this will use cherry (or ALPS) switches which are different than IBM ones. It'll make a great keyboard though

Right, I originally mentioned that I liked that it was using Cherry MX or ALPS keyswitches but I edited out in one of my revisions. Thanks for the heads up though.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 26 August 2014, 23:52:34
You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 27 August 2014, 00:52:05
Honestly, I think if you like buckling springs, you'll probably prefer a clicky ALPS to MX Green or Blue.   You can either harvest them from a vintage board, or just order a box from Matias (about $60 shipped for two hundred) or mechanicalkeyboards.com- in smaller packs but marginally pricier per unit.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 27 August 2014, 04:56:43
Clicky Alps are amazing, only issue is the lack of keycaps for them.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 27 August 2014, 09:30:08
I woke up too early this morning, so I re-did the GH-122 controller.  The eagle-eyed among you will be able to detect the slight modification and the additional capability I am aiming for...

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Spolier:
More
If you guessed that I added a CAPSLOCK LED wire to the left ribbon cable -- you are correct!  ;)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Wed, 27 August 2014, 12:59:37
You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.

I'll probably be getting Greens for all of their goodness. Dorkvader, i am in MA and was wondering if you would consider assembling mine as well? I have a few smaller (and less important projects) coming soon that i'd want to learn to solder on before i undertook this project and considering this is pretty much a dream board, i def wouldnt want to bork it up! PM me if you could and we can talk a bit more about it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Wed, 27 August 2014, 13:07:17
I think this is probably the closest to the board that I'd want in the end too... but I don't think it's happening this paycheck...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: xavierblak on Wed, 27 August 2014, 13:55:40
Is the plan to do a production run of this after the proto run? I definitely want to get one of these but I'm trying to scale back my keyboard budget a bit. I'd rather only buy one.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 27 August 2014, 14:28:45
You may be interested in MX green, which (in my opinion) are the closest to IBM buckling spring. They are heavy and clicky. Getting some MX blue and modifying them with heavier springs is a good idea.

I'll probably be getting Greens for all of their goodness. Dorkvader, i am in MA and was wondering if you would consider assembling mine as well? I have a few smaller (and less important projects) coming soon that i'd want to learn to solder on before i undertook this project and considering this is pretty much a dream board, i def wouldnt want to bork it up! PM me if you could and we can talk a bit more about it.

Yep, I'd be down for assembly. PM incoming.

Depending on how far away you live, I might even be willing to hand deliver it :P
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 27 August 2014, 14:33:58
I will see what I can do, but I am not terrific about measure things accurately.

There are several different models in 2000 family. Some are extremely hard to get, others not too much like 2551 and 2500 are probably most common.

HA!

I was looking for them for the longest time. Now I've given up.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 27 August 2014, 14:41:01
This might be a stupid suggestion, but have we thought about talking to Unicomp about what their 122 key cases would cost?

We don't need barrels or whatever, but just the outer plastic. Mount it all to a steel plate (and the bend could be in the plate!) and then add pcbs.

I also don't even solder, so if this is a stupid idea, well, ignore it.

Any case from Unicomp is $20.  But using a Unicomp 122 case would (likely) require a bent PCB / plate.

awesome! my vote is for as much stock materials as possible, to lower costs and increase availability. You don't want to be short one part after the group buy (eg if a casing gets broken), and totally have no way of replacing it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:16:24
A few suggestions:

1) since we're really going all out, might as well have a proper branding that looks elegant to non-geekhackers. I propose a simple, discreet and clean looking little square metal plate with just GH on it. Much like the famous IBM logo on buckling spring keyboards.

2) lets arrange for a nuclear data relegendables thing anyway but not do it with the current group buy since that will hold up that buy. Nuclear plants go very well with these shiny relegendable tops! If we give more time for that relegendables thing to meet MOQ it should not be hard to sell 25 sets of 12 each. I am tempted to buy 2 sets alone.

3) I notice people talking about greens. Let me suggest matching blues with clear springs. A lot of people including me have unused clear springs, and I can assure all as a big user of buckling springs, that blue stems with clear springs are excellent (closer) substitutes for buckling springs than Cherry greens.

4) unicomp casing comes with unicomp logo on the leds. We need to get rid of that.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:25:18
$6 buys a proper LED plate with no logo or modern icons.

I would very much like to see a silver and black medallion.  Perhaps GH-122 over GEEK and HACK. Striped lettering would be excellent!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:49:24
$6 buys a proper LED plate with no logo or modern icons.

I would very much like to see a silver and black medallion.  Perhaps GH-122 over GEEK and HACK. Striped lettering would be excellent!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

(http://i.imgur.com/eChQTqD.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:55:13
Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 27 August 2014, 15:57:13
Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right. :)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:06:06
My pro MS paint skills are no match for an actual font.

(http://i.imgur.com/xXBcZTd.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:39:50
For myself, I would be more than content to refurbish an IBM F122 (or even an M122, including a bolt mod). However, if I were interested in a 122 with something other than capacitive buckling spring switches, I might consider Matias tactile-clicky switches. I also wonder if CM would sell their hybrid Topres with Cherry-mx-compatible stems.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 27 August 2014, 18:51:57
For myself, I would be more than content to refurbish an IBM F122 (or even an M122, including a bolt mod). However, if I were interested in a 122 with something other than capacitive buckling spring switches, I might consider Matias tactile-clicky switches. I also wonder if CM would sell their hybrid Topres with Cherry-mx-compatible stems.

Topre switches aren't discrete.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 27 August 2014, 19:48:53
Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right. :)

Is that "Men in Blue"?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 27 August 2014, 19:50:12
Nice! Can the third line be GH122 ?

Yeah, I can work on it, but the font as installed spaces out the numbers too much, and it didn't look right. :)

Is that "Men in Blue"?

Yes sir, that would be the one. :)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 27 August 2014, 20:13:33
This is City Medium, modified by hand in a manner similar to the original.

[attachimg=1]
Very Draft GH122 Logo

Have to improve the anti-aliasing and make it more blocky.  And improve the kerning between 1 and 2.

Possibly also reduce the number of "stripes" to avoid copyright issues.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 27 August 2014, 21:40:07
If you want to use Unicomp cases, a rectangular logo would fit the space on the top left.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 27 August 2014, 23:33:20
This is City Medium, modified by hand in a manner similar to the original.

(Attachment Link)
Very Draft GH122 Logo

Have to improve the anti-aliasing and make it more blocky.  And improve the kerning between 1 and 2.

Possibly also reduce the number of "stripes" to avoid copyright issues.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

A simple GH would be better.

Remember how simple and classic the IBM logo looks on the keyboards you are modelling after!

When your co-workers are looking from a distance of six feet away, or you are showing a photo of this keyboard on your phone, people should be able to tell that it is a GH not IBM. Without straining eyes to see the words. Distinctive and individualized yet totally not obtrusive.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Thu, 28 August 2014, 00:36:11
How about something like the back-panel badges on pre-PS/2 IBM kit... "GH" or even "Geekhack" in the big striped font, and then "GH122" in small Helvetica, or the italic serif font they used for front panel badges.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 28 August 2014, 01:49:14
How about something like the back-panel badges on pre-PS/2 IBM kit... "GH" or even "Geekhack" in the big striped font, and then "GH122" in small Helvetica, or the italic serif font they used for front panel badges.

This makes a lot of sense.

Details at the back, but elegant simplicity in front. Because stickers can be custom-done on an ordinary printer without unnecessary expense I vote that we give the back sticker serial numbers. Obviously Samwisekoi will get the most coveted 00001 and lets hope that we can sell 99,999 within a 20 year run, after which probably all keyboards will be obsolete as computing becomes purely mental.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bazh on Thu, 28 August 2014, 13:07:35
Is that an LED screen in your mockup, we could just roll it that way :thumb:

That's the controller daughterboard, for the Teensy++ 2.0. :D

:facepalm:

as a side note we really need an animated facepalm smiley...i do it alot....:D

just see this post and I bring you this

(http://diendan.vtcgame.vn/images/smilies/72fp.gif)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 28 August 2014, 13:12:04
I like the idea of a square [GH] badge where the normal IBM one would be. I wonder if we can get it anodyzed and then engraved like JDcarpe's awesome business cards he handed out at keycon.

I recommend against helvetica on the subtitle unless you play with the character spacing: I have read it can be hard to read.

Edit: made a pixel font of the "GH" logo in black and white only
(http://i.imgur.com/lMWOkvI.png)

Here's a comparison with Ron's effort:
(http://i.imgur.com/xpgcpxb.png)

I think I could make the top bar of the "H" be more blocky. I hesitated about the "rounded" upper inside edge of the "G" but if you zoom in his image does get lighter there. There is one change on mine from the first image to the comparison, also in the "G". I also might want to make the far upper right outside "curve" of the "G" a little more blocky. Thoughts?


Edit2: I think the serifs are too narrow. I'll measure an actual IBM logo and fix from there.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 28 August 2014, 14:47:51
How's this?
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)

I’m not totally satisfied, I’ll fiddle a bit more.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:13:33
How's this?
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)


I’m not totally satisfied, I’ll fiddle a bit more.

I like it! The simpler, the better.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:28:04
How's this?
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ooXQ8CU.png)


I’m not totally satisfied, I’ll fiddle a bit more.

I'm happy; elegant and good!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bazh on Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:32:17
I don't know if it were just me but that "H" is very easily mistaken to "K"
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 28 August 2014, 15:58:44
I don't know if it were just me but that "H" is very easily mistaken to "K"
Basically putting a whole bunch of stripes across letters makes for all kinds of confusing optical effects, and is definitely not optimized for legibility. I don’t think there’s any obvious way to avoid that without ditching the stripes idea.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 28 August 2014, 21:03:37
Some tweaks:
(http://i.imgur.com/nZur7UH.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/nZur7UH.png)

SVG file:
[attach=1]

Did I make the G too wide here?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 28 August 2014, 22:12:00
Some tweaks:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/nZur7UH.png)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/nZur7UH.png)


SVG file:
(Attachment Link)

Did I make the G too wide here?

I think the G is fine. Maybe make the serifs on the H a bit smaller?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 28 August 2014, 23:15:32
Maybe make the serifs on the H a bit smaller?
I exactly copied the serifs from the I, B, and M in the original IBM logo (all of which are the same).
(http://i.imgur.com/vX2q8h4.png)(http://i.imgur.com/Fyq8Cwu.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bazh on Fri, 29 August 2014, 02:48:55
maybe the serifs could be longer, I mean like those of the I from IBM logo
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 29 August 2014, 03:09:21
maybe the serifs could be longer, I mean like those of the I from IBM logo
Are you talking about my design here? Or the ones from the previous page? Mine use literally identical serifs to the original IBM logo. (On the H. The G is rather trickier to make something that still looks good with all the white stripes through it, so it differs a bit more dramatically from the source “City” typeface.)

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 29 August 2014, 03:21:43
One more slight tweak to the G dimensions:
(http://i.imgur.com/TMfu6JZ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/TMfu6JZ.png)

[attachurl=1]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 29 August 2014, 08:19:38
Maybe make the serifs on the H a bit smaller?
I exactly copied the serifs from the I, B, and M in the original IBM logo (all of which are the same).
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/vX2q8h4.png)
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Fyq8Cwu.png)


I love this.  I was hoping we could get the serifs and lines to exactly match like this.   :thumb:
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Fri, 29 August 2014, 11:25:40
it is getting better and better. Awesome!  :thumb:

Shall we consider an official geekhack color? I was hoping for a difference from the standard IBM blue or gray. IE I wanted the logo to be both understated, and also stand out.

I think the logo should not be brown to avoid being mistaken for rust. No black, gray, blue also because these are overly corporate.

I think red, orange,  green will all work. I think forest green is more discreet than red/ orange so I'll vote for that. An alternative is purple; it looks rich and royal, yet is clearly not a corporate color so even ignorant people can guess that it wasn't made by a faceless company.

If our current logo discussion works eventually we should adopt that as the official geekhack badge for all geekhack crowdsourced keyboards and keypads. That way we will eventually be able to get discounts for getting 1000 made; it'll also be a proper badge that can be recognized by people on other forums eg reddit.

Lastly, I've always been opposed to all these variations of the logo: http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42051.0;attach=17899;image

I don't like having the name fully spelled out. For one, geek is still a derogatory word in many circles. For two, hack is also a generally negative word. And geekhack suggests to many outsiders that you are part of some semi-illicit hacker community. It's not good to display the word too blatantly on a keyboard when you are doing business and want to be taken seriously. As an older man I am quite away of these things.

Also consider how IBM handled it. None of the words International Business Machines have any negative connotation, but it's too lengthy and staid. A concise IBM, much like a single pair of golden arches for Macdonalds' or just FedEx for Federal Express, makes for an easily recognizable logo. Remember that most logos have very few letters. They save you that few extra nanoseconds to read. You don't need your eyes to sweep from g e e k h a c k . o r g to recognize it - just GH is enough.

And since GH is also the center of the alpha typing space on a QWERTY keyboard, it's very easy to associate us with being the center of the keyboard world.
 
Consider how elegant and memorable this is
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Fri, 29 August 2014, 11:28:19
it is getting better and better. Awesome!  :thumb:

Shall we consider an official geekhack color? I was hoping for a difference from the standard IBM blue or gray. IE I wanted the logo to be both understated, and also stand out.

I think the logo should not be brown to avoid being mistaken for rust. No black, gray, blue also because these are overly corporate.

I think red, orange,  green will all work. I think forest green is more discreet than red/ orange so I'll vote for that. An alternative is purple; it looks rich and royal, yet is clearly not a corporate color so even ignorant people can guess that it wasn't made by a faceless company.

If our current logo discussion works eventually we should adopt that as the official geekhack badge for all geekhack crowdsourced keyboards and keypads. That way we will eventually be able to get discounts for getting 1000 made; it'll also be a proper badge that can be recognized by people on other forums eg reddit.

Lastly, I've always been opposed to all these variations of the logo: http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42051.0;attach=17899;image

I don't like having the name fully spelled out. For one, geek is still a derogatory word in many circles. For two, hack is also a generally negative word. And geekhack suggests to many outsiders that you are part of some semi-illicit hacker community. It's not good to display the word too blatantly on a keyboard when you are doing business and want to be taken seriously. As an older man I am quite away of these things.

Also consider how IBM handled it. None of the words International Business Machines have any negative connotation, but it's too lengthy and staid. A concise IBM, much like a single pair of golden arches for Macdonalds' or just FedEx for Federal Express, makes for an easily recognizable logo. Remember that most logos have very few letters. They save you that few extra nanoseconds to read. You don't need your eyes to sweep from g e e k h a c k . o r g to recognize it - just GH is enough.

And since GH is also the center of the alpha typing space on a QWERTY keyboard, it's very easy to associate us with being the center of the keyboard world.
 
Consider how elegant and memorable this is
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 29 August 2014, 12:39:20
Since I am a shameless **** I will offer to guide you to my ebay sale for a 122 Space Invaders keyboard.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62288.new#new (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62288.new#new)

After using an IBM F-122 for a couple of years I have grown to really like the configuration, but I can't see using it for other keyboard switch types. Well, maybe blue or orange Alps ......

The board I am selling is very nice, and, amazingly, plug-and-play PS/2 (on my Gigabyte mobo, anyway).

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 29 August 2014, 15:54:11
g space on a QWERTY keyboard, it's very easy to associate us with being the center of the keyboard world.
 
Consider how elegant and memorable this is

Right next to eachother on Dvorak as well.

After using an IBM F-122 for a couple of years I have grown to really like the configuration, but I can't see using it for other keyboard switch types. Well, maybe blue or orange Alps ......
This PCB is compatible with alps.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 29 August 2014, 17:14:49

This PCB is compatible with alps.


I know, I know.

Problem is, I need to finish about half a dozen projects that are already waiting for me, and purge my collection of at least that many existing ones.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: pr0ximity on Fri, 29 August 2014, 17:36:41
Gotta say, I've been looking at F-122's, but I think this might have to be my next project. I've never built a keyboard from the ground-up, so I'm not interested in the prototype run, but if there's a production run after I'm in  :thumb:

The Unicomp cases and GH badge are the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 29 August 2014, 18:24:20

I've been looking at F-122's


But not typing on them.

Otherwise, you would know.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 29 August 2014, 18:27:12
I am glad to see this project idea, and I hope it moves forward. For my own part, I think I will be content to refurbish and convert to USB the IBM F122s that I already have (along with some M122s, although these will also need to be bolt-modded).

To compete with the noise of the original F122s, I would urge you to consider the Matias Alps-inspired tactile-clicky switch for the GH 122.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 29 August 2014, 19:02:26
While I know it's sort of been a side issue on the discussion, we might want to just give the PCB design a sanity check before launch and see if it would be feasible to use Soarer's Controller firmware.  http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/soarer-s-keyboard-controller-firmware-t6767.html

It apparently supports the Teensy++ and pretty collosal matrices (supposedly, 256 keys) and it looks like it could be simple to configure (well, as simple as a hand-written config file can be expected to be)  All we'd need to be sure of is that it's wiring to appropriate pins on the Teensy++

While someone might want to write something super-custom later, especially if they want to also bolt a bunch of LEDs on, this could give us the ability to use the board within a day or two of the PCBs coming home.   Such a situation could be especially valuable for testing-- even if you don't want to impose a layout, a map which just issued "Row 1, Column 1" as each key was struck would make it child's play to locate sticky or poorly soldered switches.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 29 August 2014, 19:52:06
While I know it's sort of been a side issue on the discussion, we might want to just give the PCB design a sanity check before launch and see if it would be feasible to use Soarer's Controller firmware.  http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/soarer-s-keyboard-controller-firmware-t6767.html

It apparently supports the Teensy++ and pretty collosal matrices (supposedly, 256 keys) and it looks like it could be simple to configure (well, as simple as a hand-written config file can be expected to be)  All we'd need to be sure of is that it's wiring to appropriate pins on the Teensy++

While someone might want to write something super-custom later, especially if they want to also bolt a bunch of LEDs on, this could give us the ability to use the board within a day or two of the PCBs coming home.   Such a situation could be especially valuable for testing-- even if you don't want to impose a layout, a map which just issued "Row 1, Column 1" as each key was struck would make it child's play to locate sticky or poorly soldered switches.
It's a good idea.

I recommended (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62003.msg1445865#msg1445865) we use soarer's firmware on a teensy++ from the beginning. Metalliqaz might import the matrix to his firmware opening up other options, but I really like how soarer's works what with the config files and not-having-to-reflash-the-chip.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 29 August 2014, 20:22:59
Cool.  I was just worried that the current design might call for pins that that firmware can't reach.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 30 August 2014, 08:36:56
Cool.  I was just worried that the current design might call for pins that that firmware can't reach.

While I know it's sort of been a side issue on the discussion, we might want to just give the PCB design a sanity check before launch and see if it would be feasible to use Soarer's Controller firmware.  http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/soarer-s-keyboard-controller-firmware-t6767.html

It apparently supports the Teensy++ and pretty collosal matrices (supposedly, 256 keys) and it looks like it could be simple to configure (well, as simple as a hand-written config file can be expected to be)  All we'd need to be sure of is that it's wiring to appropriate pins on the Teensy++

While someone might want to write something super-custom later, especially if they want to also bolt a bunch of LEDs on, this could give us the ability to use the board within a day or two of the PCBs coming home.   Such a situation could be especially valuable for testing-- even if you don't want to impose a layout, a map which just issued "Row 1, Column 1" as each key was struck would make it child's play to locate sticky or poorly soldered switches.
It's a good idea.

I recommended (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62003.msg1445865#msg1445865) we use soarer's firmware on a teensy++ from the beginning. Metalliqaz might import the matrix to his firmware opening up other options, but I really like how soarer's works what with the config files and not-having-to-reflash-the-chip.

Please tell me more.  I was just about to use the 'inboard' pins to free up the PWM pins on the outside edges.

I believe metalliqaz' tool already supports the Teensy++, but I also want to be sure we have firmware on Day One.

DV, I'll start sending you the matrix pin-outs as they evolve. Please do let me know if any of them won't work.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 30 August 2014, 10:34:16
Please tell me more.  I was just about to use the 'inboard' pins to free up the PWM pins on the outside edges.

I believe metalliqaz' tool already supports the Teensy++, but I also want to be sure we have firmware on Day One.

DV, I'll start sending you the matrix pin-outs as they evolve. Please do let me know if any of them won't work.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Ok I can come up with a flashing guide and some default layout files. I have the documentation (sadly split across two files) open in another window as well.

I've never used soarer's code on the teensy++ so I will have to do some reading on pin assignments and the like.

One downside is that soarer's code does not support backlighting very well. So unless you want to map "backlight all LEDs" to scroll-lock (or use a toggle switch: my personal favourite idea), it may be better to go with a different firmware.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 30 August 2014, 11:42:44
Now, although the docs aren't specific, it looks like the compiler should be able to handle specifying the PA series pins (which are the middle ones).

From a physical perspective, this does make it a lot harder to have the Teensy socketed-- you can't just solder in a DIP socket anymore if you're accessing pins mid-PCB.  Yeah, you could solder pins to the mid-PCB openings, and then make up something with SIP connectors... but is this even important?   Probably not.

I do see a useful heads-up in the Controller discussion thread: pin PD6 has a LED sitting on it, which means it can't be used as a sense pin.  The latest image you posted seems to avoid PD6, so that's not a big deal.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 30 August 2014, 12:52:19
Now, although the docs aren't specific, it looks like the compiler should be able to handle specifying the PA series pins (which are the middle ones).

From a physical perspective, this does make it a lot harder to have the Teensy socketed-- you can't just solder in a DIP socket anymore if you're accessing pins mid-PCB.  Yeah, you could solder pins to the mid-PCB openings, and then make up something with SIP connectors... but is this even important?   Probably not.

I do see a useful heads-up in the Controller discussion thread: pin PD6 has a LED sitting on it, which means it can't be used as a sense pin.  The latest image you posted seems to avoid PD6, so that's not a big deal.


The Teensy is the same way.  Using that pin as a sense pin is possible; I did it on the GH36.  According to metalliqaz:

Quote
The LED is dim because it is on pin D6, which you used for Col12.  The dimness is caused by the column getting energized every millisecond.

I have a plan for attaching the center pins.  I am going to try it out on a breadboard.

Please tell me more.  I was just about to use the 'inboard' pins to free up the PWM pins on the outside edges.

I believe metalliqaz' tool already supports the Teensy++, but I also want to be sure we have firmware on Day One.

DV, I'll start sending you the matrix pin-outs as they evolve. Please do let me know if any of them won't work.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Ok I can come up with a flashing guide and some default layout files. I have the documentation (sadly split across two files) open in another window as well.

I've never used soarer's code on the teensy++ so I will have to do some reading on pin assignments and the like.

One downside is that soarer's code does not support backlighting very well. So unless you want to map "backlight all LEDs" to scroll-lock (or use a toggle switch: my personal favourite idea), it may be better to go with a different firmware.

At one point you (I think it was you) said you could hang a transistor off of a keyswitch and energize LEDs that way.  Was that you, and is that true?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sat, 30 August 2014, 12:55:46
Is there a pro / con chart of the available firmware sources?  Soarers / Metalliqaz / Hasu?  LED support, keymap updates, reflashing, layers, etc.  Maybe as it relates to this project, but also in general for others.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 30 August 2014, 13:15:54
At one point you (I think it was you) said you could hang a transistor off of a keyswitch and energize LEDs that way.  Was that you, and is that true?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
That was probably me.

If you look in LED backlit keyboards like the poker2, they have a few transistors. That way they can just send voltage out one pin to activate the transistor and then the transistor will switch power on for the LED matrix. I might have to get a germanium one or something with better specs if we're driving a ton of LEDs here (or get 2 in parallel) but yes I planned to use a transistor.

Actually, I planned to use a panel-mounted toggle switch to turn on the transistor to power the LEDs, but I might use a relay if I can get away with it (they use up power), 'cause toggle switches and relays are really cool, and I think fit with the theme of a big bad industrial 122-key keyboard.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 30 August 2014, 13:19:21
At one point you (I think it was you) said you could hang a transistor off of a keyswitch and energize LEDs that way.  Was that you, and is that true?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
That was probably me.

If you look in LED backlit keyboards like the poker2, they have a few transistors. That way they can just send voltage out one pin to activate the transistor and then the transistor will switch power on for the LED matrix. I might have to get a germanium one or something with better specs if we're driving a ton of LEDs here (or get 2 in parallel) but yes I planned to use a transistor.

Actually, I planned to use a panel-mounted toggle switch to turn on the transistor to power the LEDs, but I might use a relay if I can get away with it (they use up power), 'cause toggle switches and relays are really cool, and I think fit with the theme of a big bad industrial 122-key keyboard.

Can you explain how using a transistor hooked to a raw 5V source (USB in this case, I presume) is different than using the teensy itself to switch a pin to +5V using its internal controller?  In both cases you would code it to switch a pin to output a current to accomplish your task, so the coding wouldn't be significantly different, would it?  Or is the difference that the teensy pins can't handle the current output we'd need?

Or am I totally misunderstanding?   ^-^
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 30 August 2014, 13:21:53
At one point you (I think it was you) said you could hang a transistor off of a keyswitch and energize LEDs that way.  Was that you, and is that true?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
That was probably me.

If you look in LED backlit keyboards like the poker2, they have a few transistors. That way they can just send voltage out one pin to activate the transistor and then the transistor will switch power on for the LED matrix. I might have to get a germanium one or something with better specs if we're driving a ton of LEDs here (or get 2 in parallel) but yes I planned to use a transistor.

Actually, I planned to use a panel-mounted toggle switch to turn on the transistor to power the LEDs, but I might use a relay if I can get away with it (they use up power), 'cause toggle switches and relays are really cool, and I think fit with the theme of a big bad industrial 122-key keyboard.

Can you explain how using a transistor hooked to a raw 5V source (USB in this case, I presume) is different than using the teensy itself to switch a pin to +5V using its internal controller?  In both cases you would code it to switch a pin to output a current to accomplish your task, so the coding wouldn't be significantly different, would it?  Or is the difference that the teensy pins can't handle the current output we'd need?

Or am I totally misunderstanding?   ^-^
I dont think the teensy has the current capacity to drive all the LEDs at once. We're talking like 200 mA LED matrix, I don't want that coming form one pin on the teensy.

And you can still use the teensy to turn the LED matrix on/off for fancy LED effects. Just have the pin on the teensy connect to the transistor gate.


I'm no EE (still not taken any classes) but I know transistors and LEDs from a nanotechnology class I had once (and from reading into DIY amplifiers for some time). I'm busy today, but I'll write up my ideas tomorrow if no-one else has discussed it
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 30 August 2014, 13:32:23
At one point you (I think it was you) said you could hang a transistor off of a keyswitch and energize LEDs that way.  Was that you, and is that true?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
That was probably me.

If you look in LED backlit keyboards like the poker2, they have a few transistors. That way they can just send voltage out one pin to activate the transistor and then the transistor will switch power on for the LED matrix. I might have to get a germanium one or something with better specs if we're driving a ton of LEDs here (or get 2 in parallel) but yes I planned to use a transistor.

Actually, I planned to use a panel-mounted toggle switch to turn on the transistor to power the LEDs, but I might use a relay if I can get away with it (they use up power), 'cause toggle switches and relays are really cool, and I think fit with the theme of a big bad industrial 122-key keyboard.

Can you explain how using a transistor hooked to a raw 5V source (USB in this case, I presume) is different than using the teensy itself to switch a pin to +5V using its internal controller?  In both cases you would code it to switch a pin to output a current to accomplish your task, so the coding wouldn't be significantly different, would it?  Or is the difference that the teensy pins can't handle the current output we'd need?

Or am I totally misunderstanding?   ^-^
I dont think the teensy has the current capacity to drive all the LEDs at once. We're talking like 200 mA LED matrix, I don't want that coming form one pin on the teensy.

And you can still use the teensy to turn the LED matrix on/off for fancy LED effects. Just have the pin on the teensy connect to the transistor gate.


I'm no EE (still not taken any classes) but I know transistors and LEDs from a nanotechnology class I had once (and from reading into DIY amplifiers for some time). I'm busy today, but I'll write up my ideas tomorrow if no-one else has discussed it

That's what I suspected.  I have no further questions then.  Cause essentially the design in question is using a transistor (teensy) to flip an external transistor to send power.  Which without that design constraint you listed (lack of current) seems silly to me.  But that makes sense.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 30 August 2014, 13:55:37
Teensy pins are rated for 50mA, but can push to 100. However, using the Teensy pin and a simple transistor means you can pump VCC through a string of LEDs.  That is what I am doing on the GH36.

What I don't know is if I can use a closed keyswitch (e.g. the Fn key) to activate a transistor and from there power a string of LEDs.

Also, the transistor could be replaced - not with a relay - but with a vacuum tube!  THAT would be machine-age madness!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 30 August 2014, 14:19:07
Teensy pins are rated for 50mA, but can push to 100. However, using the Teensy pin and a simple transistor means you can pump VCC through a string of LEDs.  That is what I am doing on the GH36.

What I don't know is if I can use a closed keyswitch (e.g. the Fn key) to activate a transistor and from there power a string of LEDs.

Also, the transistor could be replaced - not with a relay - but with a vacuum tube!  THAT would be machine-age madness!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

You should be able to write the firmware to accept the Fn key code and in addition to performing the desired function, also put the "LED pin" high and therefore switch the transistor.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 30 August 2014, 14:37:53
Yes, but my programming language of choice is solder!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: damorgue on Sat, 30 August 2014, 15:26:37
Just some thoughts on lighting up 122keys:
USB is 500mA at 5V
Leds are about 1.6V and 20mA each, connected serially in groups of three to reach 5V.

That results in 813mA if I am not mistaken. It is possible to PWM them to not have them all ON at the same time, or run them at lower voltages or currents, but it is still fairly close to the limit of USB 2.0 at least. Just something to keep in mind unless it has already been mentioned.

Edit: Even if you use transistors to circumvent the limit of a teensy, you might run into issues if you want to power it through one USB port.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 30 August 2014, 15:58:55
Edit: Even if you use transistors to circumvent the limit of a teensy, you might run into issues if you want to power it through one USB port.

Back to PS2 ports? Or have the LEDs draw power from a PS2 cord ... or yes, a 2nd USB port ... Don't the TG3 red LEDs use a 12v car adapter? ... maybe a bluetooth keyboard sucking power from a proper 1A wall-wart instead of a battery...

Just throwing ideas out there! No plans to do any of these things!

I'd step up and ask to be another prototyper but I just wrote down all the projects I want in on, and there's no fewer than 7 keyboards I want ... of course that includes the GH60 when it goes live but there's also JoseyQuinn's 42% and the GH36 and ...

 So I guess I'm relegated to moral support for this one. And spouting gibberish without cue.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 30 August 2014, 17:24:35
Edit: Even if you use transistors to circumvent the limit of a teensy, you might run into issues if you want to power it through one USB port.

Back to PS2 ports? Or have the LEDs draw power from a PS2 cord ... or yes, a 2nd USB port ... Don't the TG3 red LEDs use a 12v car adapter? ... maybe a bluetooth keyboard sucking power from a proper 1A wall-wart instead of a battery...

Just throwing ideas out there! No plans to do any of these things!

I'd step up and ask to be another prototyper but I just wrote down all the projects I want in on, and there's no fewer than 7 keyboards I want ... of course that includes the GH60 when it goes live but there's also JoseyQuinn's 42% and the GH36 and ...

 So I guess I'm relegated to moral support for this one. And spouting gibberish without cue.

Well, we could include a powered USB hub inside the case...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 30 August 2014, 17:52:21
Do not use a secondary USB, that is very, very bad practice.

Using a USB wall adapter is a good idea, checkout the Arduino Schematics for how they handle switch between a wallport and a USB.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sat, 30 August 2014, 18:51:00
no led's needed for me. Caps, num and scroll lock leds are nice, but i absolutely dont need any LED's.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 30 August 2014, 18:51:14
Just some thoughts on lighting up 122keys:
USB is 500mA at 5V
Leds are about 1.6V and 20mA each, connected serially in groups of three to reach 5V.

That results in 813mA if I am not mistaken. It is possible to PWM them to not have them all ON at the same time, or run them at lower voltages or currents, but it is still fairly close to the limit of USB 2.0 at least. Just something to keep in mind unless it has already been mentioned.

Edit: Even if you use transistors to circumvent the limit of a teensy, you might run into issues if you want to power it through one USB port.

You dont need to run the LEDs at their maximum rated brightness. We will likely be running about 1ma through each of them: this is about standard for a KB and they will be plenty bright.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 31 August 2014, 01:27:19
My vote would be for EL lighting.  Get a mat cut (there are places on line that offer this service) slap it on top of the plate and plug it in.  Though it wouldn't look good if the switch plate is the top of the case.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 31 August 2014, 08:28:31
no led's needed for me. Caps, num and scroll lock leds are nice, but i absolutely dont need any LED's.

Ditto.

This.

+1
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 31 August 2014, 14:02:16
In a way, I'm not sure backlit even necessarily fits with the overall vibe of the project-- again, a very retro battleship of a board, from back before backlit was a thing.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 31 August 2014, 16:34:34
I'm not a backlighting user at all. I want a CAPLOCK LED and that is it.  Maybe more indicators on a 40% to indicate state/layer.

However, every time I design a keyboard using a Teensy controller, there are not enough pins for even a few LEDs.  And for the GH122 there are nowhere near enough.  So I moved up to the Teensy++ and suddenly there are PLENTY of pins. And the controller is a daughter card anyhow, so I thought what the heck, let's use those pins and make the *controller* useful for more than this one board.

So the GH122 might not have more than three LEDs, but the controller might be smart enough to control more than that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sun, 31 August 2014, 16:43:04
I'm not a backlighting user at all. I want a CAPLOCK LED and that is it.  Maybe more indicators on a 40% to indicate state/layer.

However, every time I design a keyboard using a Teensy controller, there are not enough pins for even a few LEDs.  And for the GH122 there are nowhere near enough.  So I moved up to the Teensy++ and suddenly there are PLENTY of pins. And the controller is a daughter card anyhow, so I thought what the heck, let's use those pins and make the *controller* useful for more than this one board.

So the GH122 might not have more than three LEDs, but the controller might be smart enough to control more than that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

That sounds good to me
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 02 September 2014, 09:14:23
Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 02 September 2014, 18:49:43
Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?

Oh, heck no. You will have to be patient my friend. I am waiting for feedback on the GH36 layout and the Unicomp case.

But we SHALL have our battleship! Yes we shall.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Tue, 02 September 2014, 19:07:13
Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?

Oh, heck no. You will have to be patient my friend. I am waiting for feedback on the GH36 layout and the Unicomp case.

But we SHALL have our battleship! Yes we shall.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

For what it's worth, this is like a Halo sort of project for me. I am in NO rush for this bad mofo.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Tue, 02 September 2014, 19:08:01
Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?

Oh, heck no. You will have to be patient my friend. I am waiting for feedback on the GH36 layout and the Unicomp case.

But we SHALL have our battleship! Yes we shall.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

For what it's worth, this is like a halo level of project for me. I am in NO rush for this bad mofo. I wish i could contribute to it, but i am woefully ignorant of what goes into this stuff.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 02 September 2014, 19:32:08
Is the controller board layout finalized?

The most recent image in the thread looks like it has a a couple row traces crossed, and there are traces going to the PA0-7 pins; wasn't sure if that was the final plan or not.

EDIT : Also - are the Ground and VCC pins in the correct positions?

Oh, heck no. You will have to be patient my friend. I am waiting for feedback on the GH36 layout and the Unicomp case.

But we SHALL have our battleship! Yes we shall.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Cool.  No rush.  Just wanted to be sure to point out what I saw.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 03 September 2014, 17:04:19
It is interesting to see the excitement over this project. Although I do not want to undertake building a 122 keyboard from the ground up myself, this GH project has encouraged me to proceed with my restoration of IBM M122 and F122 boards. It is noteworthy that Unicomp sells a 122 model of its own. In addition, I have noticed several 122 keyboards on eBay that are not IBM. In fact, I just bought an NMB 122 with black space invader (clicky angry bear) switches.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 04 September 2014, 18:24:25
More and useful keys?  I like it.

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

/runs
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 04 September 2014, 18:51:12
More and useful keys?  I like it.

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

/runs

Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Thu, 04 September 2014, 20:04:17
Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!
Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

Not quite enough keys -- unless you bought two pair of GH36es, then arranged them either all in a row, or maybe a quad array of 2x2 boards.

At twelve-square of keys, it would finally be a battleship keyboard! Make a litster - style case of 304 stainless, and you'd have the keyboard to fight the apocalypse with.

That might be more keyboard than I actually need.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 05 September 2014, 13:19:20
Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!
Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

Not quite enough keys -- unless you bought two pair of GH36es, then arranged them either all in a row, or maybe a quad array of 2x2 boards.

At twelve-square of keys, it would finally be a battleship keyboard! Make a litster - style case of 304 stainless, and you'd have the keyboard to fight the apocalypse with.

That might be more keyboard than I actually need.

It'd be like kbdfr's keyboard (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/tipro-model-is-this-single-layer-pcb-t7981.html#p162211)
(http://deskthority.net/resources/image/12416)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 06 September 2014, 07:53:45


It'd be like kbdfr's keyboard (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/tipro-model-is-this-single-layer-pcb-t7981.html#p162211)
Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/resources/image/12416)


This keyboard takes up way too much desktop space.

There are 4 programmable layers on the keyboard in the middle. As the user of a similar keyboard I simply can't find enough use for all the layers.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sat, 06 September 2014, 16:22:21
Costar only stab plate layout - WIP:

(http://s21.postimg.org/un2qir3av/Plate1.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 06 September 2014, 18:09:19
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 06 September 2014, 19:16:00
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)


Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 06 September 2014, 20:22:52
I hate to be a beggar, but I might suggest we do the plate with the "hybrid" mounting like Matias is using in his 60% -- see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1447591#msg1447591

Specifically (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60268.0;attach=69978;image)

This makes it easy for both MX and ALPS fans.  Costar-style plate-mount stabs work well either way-- you can use them with minor modifications to support keys with ALPS style stabilizer inserts.  It also looks like it would provide that "side access to allow popping the top on MX switches" while actually being a simpler cut than the usual "four tiny notches" thing.  However, whether it would work for that, I will leave to someone who actually understands the mechanics of opening MX switches on plate-mount boards.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 06 September 2014, 20:28:17
I hate to be a beggar, but I might suggest we do the plate with the "hybrid" mounting like Matias is using in his 60% -- see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg1447591#msg1447591

Specifically
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60268.0;attach=69978;image)


This makes it easy for both MX and ALPS fans.  Costar-style plate-mount stabs work well either way-- you can use them with minor modifications to support keys with ALPS style stabilizer inserts.  It also looks like it would provide that "side access to allow popping the top on MX switches" while actually being a simpler cut than the usual "four tiny notches" thing.  However, whether it would work for that, I will leave to someone who actually understands the mechanics of opening MX switches on plate-mount boards.

Even if it wouldn't work it wouldn't take much time with a file on each hole to make it work.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 06 September 2014, 20:44:32
I guess my question is "if it would work, why is this not becoming the dominant plate design?"  My guesses are either "everyone just jumped on the four notches bandwagon after the first guy did it" or possibly "it isn't quite as stable for Cherry-only usage" or "Most people didn't bother because the PCB was going to limit you to MX switches anyway".
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 06 September 2014, 21:27:11
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)


I strongly support Ivan's proposal and hope it will be taken up. If we want a battleship, I believe we should have a modern one. But I suspect programming the LCD screen won't be easy and it will add greatly to costs...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 06 September 2014, 21:54:19
There is software that already exists for running various info screen type of things. Would just need to use hardware that are compatible with software that already exists.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sat, 06 September 2014, 22:38:52
As much as i'd looooove a mini screen or something like that, i think we are deviating from the goal. This is a kind of Retro / Revival sort of project, at least in my eyes. While another screen or some such stuff would be undeniably cool, i think its just a bit much. Maybe the GH-122.2 can have a screen or some such thing, but for now I envision Samwisekoi's original proposal to be a much simpler affair.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 06 September 2014, 23:13:03
Agreed.  Personally, I think stuff like "a secondary display" is something that can be built into the case, but as a seperate unit (maybe solder it all together with an in-case hub, or something).... keeps the main product simple and the cost for people who only want the basic board low.

It sort of reminds me of the days in the case-mod scene, maybe 2004-6 or so, when small parallel-port driven LCDs (or VFD displays if you were super-lucky) were the cool toy to have.  The problem is that the software always sucked, the LCD modules themselves were often of mediocre quality and poor legibility, and there was never a good place to mount them.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 07 September 2014, 00:04:01
I guess my question is "if it would work, why is this not becoming the dominant plate design?"  My guesses are either "everyone just jumped on the four notches bandwagon after the first guy did it" or possibly "it isn't quite as stable for Cherry-only usage" or "Most people didn't bother because the PCB was going to limit you to MX switches anyway".
How about: it’s never actually been produced, so we still have no idea how well it works. I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be okay but not quite as nice as a dedicated MX or Alps plate. MX + Alps should definitely become the standard for PCBs though.

(Personally, I also think the MX plates with little extra cutout notches for switch top replacement are a bit of a gimmick, and probably don’t perform quite as well as a simple square, but I’ve never compared those two side by side.)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 07 September 2014, 00:21:10
There was a thread where people actually prototyped that plate design. It wasn't as stable as the four notches design, iirc.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 07 September 2014, 00:38:22
Well, that's your fault for using the wrong type of switches.

:)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 07 September 2014, 00:58:00
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)


Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 07 September 2014, 01:02:55
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)


Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html

Might need to get fancy with the traces but 121 key can be done with 22 pins.  Granted you need to get fancy with traces as thats with 11x11 matrix.  Though standard layout for traces would need a bit more pins.  How much more difficult would it be to use a ++ version over a standard 2.0?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 07 September 2014, 01:14:56
Forget backlighting. Use the extra capabilities of the controller to drive an LCD panel. Then it could be cool like the 9009.
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/v1e3d.jpg)


Screw it, do this with an ARM based teensy, use the LCD panel and have it able to show system info such as ram;usage, clock temp, CPU;usage, temp, clock, GPU;usage, temp, clock, HDD usage, read write speeds, network status, battery status for mobile users, (that would be awesome getting an action shot of someone putting bluetooth into something like this and using it with their ipad.  Sorry had a bit of a squirrel moment.

Dunno if the T3.1 (the ARM one) has enough pins for a screen AND a 122-key matrix. The T++2.0 probably does. Depending on your LCD screen though.

And even a normal teensy can run a LCD screen. Check it out:
http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/board5/lcd_128x64.html

Might need to get fancy with the traces but 121 key can be done with 22 pins.  Granted you need to get fancy with traces as thats with 11x11 matrix.  Though standard layout for traces would need a bit more pins.  How much more difficult would it be to use a ++ version over a standard 2.0?
well, soarer's code runs on the ++ some of the other ones might have a ++ version as well. I think the real hard part is integrating the display driver library with the KB code and also figuring out some client side app to export that data to your teensy.

You can use io expanders like bpiphany's costar replacement controlelrs or the ergodox to get more KB matrix pins available.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 07 September 2014, 09:56:38
Wow; I've been off working on the GH36 (now in the Real World) and missed a bunch of this.

So, the Teensy++ has ever so many pins.  It also has way more RAM than the Teensy.  Personally I think one of the PJRC screens could work aesthetically in the upper right-hand corner as a faux triple LED string.  However, the best use of such a thing would be if the keyboard could be reprogrammed without an attached PC.  Particularly the banks of what are essentially macro keys.

Anyhow, the pinouts for the PJRC screen are trivial, so from a hardware perspective I can leave them available, or even run them to a string of pads.

If the TechKeys business card can have a display and on-board programmability, then why shouldn't the GH122 battleship keyboard at least support it?

(Physically, anyhow.  Firmware remains Not My Thing.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  You know what needs on-board programmability?  The GH36...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 07 September 2014, 10:17:32
Oh my God it gets better and better!

Even if Ron is not up to doing the LCD firmware, Somebody here will. And that’s the awesome power of geekhackery. So we will be able to get a stand alone programmable battleship.

I am just salivating!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 07 September 2014, 13:07:42
What kind of display? (as there are a lot of options)

Most appropriate would probably be nixie or VFD - but too expensive and power hungry.

More appropriate would be LCD or LED.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 07 September 2014, 13:22:45
What kind of display? (as there are a lot of options)

Most appropriate would probably be nixie or VFD - but too expensive and power hungry.

More appropriate would be LCD or LED.

nixie is out of the question for most people, but a vfd could work there are lots of vfds that are drop0in replacements for some LCDs. Current consumption would be a bit of an issue though

see here: http://www.amb.org/forum/vfd-display-experiment-t900.html

led displays like the one that that vfd is for seem to only use 20-30 mA but it will depend heavily on backlight brightness.
http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 07 September 2014, 13:39:01
VFDs tend to be difficult to source and pricy... what's available tends to be surplus parts which are frequently non-standard or poorly documented.  Many of them are quite large.

For example -- http://www.bgmicro.com/ncrfutaba4x20vacuumfluorescentdisplay.aspx -- thirty bucks, when a comparable 4x20 LCD would likely be under ten.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 07 September 2014, 13:57:12
What about this one?

https://www.pjrc.com/store/display_ili9341.html

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sun, 07 September 2014, 20:13:48
Or, we could go nuts and just do TFTs :))
(http://www.nylenkonsult.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/c0acaf2e68.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 07 September 2014, 20:41:11
Or, we could go nuts and just do TFTs :))
Show Image
(http://www.nylenkonsult.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/c0acaf2e68.jpg)


This is indeed overkill. Whoever does this will gain notoriety in his workplace as an incorrigible geek - and possibly get an endless number of tech assist requests!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 07 September 2014, 23:11:35
Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 07 September 2014, 23:32:54
Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 07 September 2014, 23:36:58
Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.

Ok, now this is getting very close to a non flip screen laptop.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Mon, 08 September 2014, 00:22:15
Just mount a cheap Chinese Android tablet in every keyboard, and then you have a touchscreen.

Raspberry Pi mounted inside the case and a LCD display and you have a standalone system.

Ok, now this is getting very close to a non flip screen laptop.

Actually, if we were to add a small basin and some plumbing attachments, I think we could really get something going here.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 08 September 2014, 00:57:06
I think you may have gone full derp.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2u4su3o.jpg)  (hey, look, a keyboard inspired derp-img!)

in fact, I'm quite sure of it...

Let's ... detach the kitchen sink. And the touchscreen ... and the iPhone. And as much as I loved my Vic-20, let's assume this keyboard will need a computer to plug into.

(although ... card socket? There was a submarine game of some sort for the VIC-20 that I miss playing. I think. Not sure, actually. That was a lot of years ago.)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Mon, 08 September 2014, 01:15:20
You could potentially design a case which let you slot in, say, a thin-ITX mainboard, a PicoPSU if necessary, and a 2.5" hard disc underneath the PCB... then just run an internal connector to a USB header on the motherboard... then you've got an all-in-one build, maybe set up a switchbox which lets you either use it as a standalone PC, or just connect the keyboard to an external PC.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Mon, 08 September 2014, 01:20:13
You could potentially design a case which let you slot in, say, a thin-ITX mainboard, a PicoPSU if necessary, and a 2.5" hard disc underneath the PCB... then just run an internal connector to a USB header on the motherboard... then you've got an all-in-one build, maybe set up a switchbox which lets you either use it as a standalone PC, or just connect the keyboard to an external PC.

Sounds a bit like the C64x Commodore replica.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Mon, 08 September 2014, 01:41:14
Yeah, except that had all sorts of stupid compromises and a ridiculous price tag to appeal to the nostalgic "it looks like a C64" crowd.  This could well be built for a specific (likely low-intensity usage) task, like being a dedicated word-processor, and it would likely be less than $150 addition to the bare keyboard project, especially if you've already got bits to reuse.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Mon, 08 September 2014, 04:27:52
This is gonna be a super keyboard.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 08 September 2014, 08:19:31
Yeah, except that had all sorts of stupid compromises and a ridiculous price tag to appeal to the nostalgic "it looks like a C64" crowd.  This could well be built for a specific (likely low-intensity usage) task, like being a dedicated word-processor, and it would likely be less than $150 addition to the bare keyboard project, especially if you've already got bits to reuse.
I think it's best used as a thin client. get one of those small standalone boards and a small display, HDMI out (though DP is waaaay better how come nobody uses it?) etc.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 08 September 2014, 21:20:16
A bit off topic, but here’s a stupidly large ergo board layout:
(http://i.imgur.com/Nzsl1iK.png)

Or with colors and not quite so silly big:
(http://i.imgur.com/x8Z8cJL.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 09 September 2014, 09:53:34
Seriously, what about this one from PJRC?  It was the one I was planning on including pin-outs for, so please let me know if it is or is not useable.

Also, only $8.00 and in stock now.

(https://www.pjrc.com/store/display_ili9341.jpg)
Color 320x240 TFT Display, ILI9341 Controller Chip

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What about this one?

https://www.pjrc.com/store/display_ili9341.html

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 09 September 2014, 10:07:52
Also, thinking about the useful and not-so-useful expansion proposals, I have come up with some simple changes that don't impact the size of the master PCB.

I added:

 - Four keys in the upper left, with an optional 2x position.
 - Four keys in the Fn block, to enable expansion, movement, or re-insertion of gaps between blocks of eight.
 - Six keys above the arrow cluster to enable some or all of the PRINT/PAUSE section to be added.

Let me know your thoughts!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 09 September 2014, 10:13:50
 :thumb: I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 09 September 2014, 10:29:55
I think that screen would work - just need to count how many pins it needs.

As far as extra key positions - I always assumed we would need a custom plate / case for this beast anyway.  I'm all for all of the extra keys you have added.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 09 September 2014, 10:30:12
:thumb: I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.

Thanks.

I had the board space for the extra positions, but I'll include cut lines, and of course the actual switches can be left out.

Me, I am going to try to fit it into a Unicomp PC-122 case, so I will make sure it is compatible with that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 09 September 2014, 11:46:50
:thumb: I approve on the screen. Not sure about the extra keys as I think that makes it instantly incompatible with anything that may be existing to use for case solutions.
I was actually thinking about doing something like a really basic integrated system deal with a Galileo or similar.

Thanks.

I had the board space for the extra positions, but I'll include cut lines, and of course the actual switches can be left out.

Me, I am going to try to fit it into a Unicomp PC-122 case, so I will make sure it is compatible with that.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I approve of everything!

This is going to be such an awesome thing!

One suggestion: lets rope in somebody who knows how to program a specialized Geekhack welcome screen on that 320x480. When you power up the keyboard, you should see something like
Geekhack presents
The Gh-122 (actually 132 or whatever after the latest expansion)
Created by Samwisekoi
other credits found at x

Welcome Back [insert your name]
What are we going to do today?
Please remember your latest changes [key x mapped to y]
The full log can be found at z

Of course I am just fantasizing but hey who knows. Maybe in 10 years teensy 10.0+++ will be powerful enough to support SIRI and every darn thing in the world. Your keyboard will be a real control panel then.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 09 September 2014, 13:07:29
I only have two of my three WYSE-150's left, and I kinda miss it. Having a modern dumb terminal could be really cool, as it means I could lay out my 100-foot serial cable from the server to the kitchen, and issue commands to play music while I cook.

Yes, I bought a 100' RS232 cable from BlackBox just so I could do that with a WYSE-150. Never got much past proof-of-concept where the terminal was about ten feet from the server, but still.

I suppose the third add-on, then, would be bluetooth. Have it register as a serial device, and you'd have a wireless dumb terminal with a color screen.

I'd buy it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpecTP on Wed, 10 September 2014, 14:19:11
So here I am on a Wednesday night watching the Nuclear Green group buy and waiting for the prototype GH-36 matrix keypad PCBs to arrive.  And what do I see on geekhack?  Another Great Find post for an F-122 that I won't ever own.

(Attachment Link)
Another F-122 I won't ever own.

And there I am with my PCB design software open in a VM in front of me, and I started to wonder what it would cost to make a small quantity of MX (or Alps) 122-key keyboard PCBs.  So I cobbled one together using the layout of the F-122 above, adjusted to modern keycap spacing.  Here is what I got:

(Attachment Link)
GH-122 Exercise by samwisekoi 2014

The answer to what would it cost?  Just $60 each for a batch of 10 PCBs.

Of course there are issues.  Setting aside the case question for the moment, what controller could support a 24x7 matrix?  The PCB would clearly have to bend for the upper bank of 24 function keys.  Can the Easy AVR software support a controller big enough to drive this thing?

And, of course, are there any other people in this fine community crazy enough to try to build such a beast?

Anyone?

Let me know.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I've got a couple of these keyboards on the shelf.. not sure what the appeal is.   I've used them for years on AS400 terminals.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 10 September 2014, 15:33:35
PC-122 case from Unicomp came in today, and I took some measurements.

First off, the valley is approximately 0.325" between banks of CHerry MX switches.  It looks like it will be tight side-to-side and loose top-to-bottom using standard 0.750" spacing.  The cruciform nav cluster looks worse than it is, especially if tall keycaps with sloping sides are used.  (I would not use DSA keycaps.)

Second, there is a convenient place to put the PCB in the bottom section of the case, and even a couple of non-horrible spots to secure it.

The main changes to the existing PCB design are an extra .125" in the three valleys plus some additional height to fit into the existing PCB guides.  I will make those changes and see where that leads in terms of other expansion opportunities.

TL;DR The GH-122 PCB can be adapted to fit into the Unicomp PC-122 case, which can be puchased for only $20.


 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  @SpecTP, if you'd care to donate one of those keyboards on the shelf, I would be happy to send you a pre-paid mailer.  I also used to use them to write some RPG, although it was on an older S/38!

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 10 September 2014, 16:40:14
There's a linux distro for the S/390 IBM systems ... is that at all related to what you're talking about?

And SpecTP: The fact those keyboards are nigh indestructible, and their heft and horizontal stature warn you ahead of time, makes them quite desirable to a certain crowd.

I'd take one off you're hands if you're running out of storage space for 'em :-)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 10 September 2014, 18:05:22
Could you fit the extra key locations on the PCB anyway?  That way for someone who wants to put it in a Unicomp case, they can populate only the switch positions needed.

For others, who would like some of those additional keys - the traces and key positions are available.

Edit : Something like this - http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/28751652c7dd637dd2edf475c784e6db
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 10 September 2014, 18:16:51
Also, thinking about the useful and not-so-useful expansion proposals, I have come up with some simple changes that don't impact the size of the master PCB.

I added:

 - Four keys in the upper left, with an optional 2x position.
 - Four keys in the Fn block, to enable expansion, movement, or re-insertion of gaps between blocks of eight.
 - Six keys above the arrow cluster to enable some or all of the PRINT/PAUSE section to be added.

Let me know your thoughts!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Or even like this : http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dc9f05bf859742bb4a02d3d27fb76905
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 10 September 2014, 18:29:04
As long as they fit among the thousand traces, yes.

Extra switch positions don't add rows or columns, so as long as they don't interfere or add cost, why not?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 10 September 2014, 19:16:01
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 10 September 2014, 20:25:25
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)


Now THAT is a layout I could get behind!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 10 September 2014, 20:33:33
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)


That.  Is. Almost. Perfect.

Change that ISO enter to ANSI and add some 1x keys between the Alt / Ctrl.

Amazing.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 10 September 2014, 21:02:50
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)


That.  Is. Almost. Perfect.

Change that ISO enter to ANSI and add some 1x keys between the Alt / Ctrl.

Amazing.

I concur for prototyping at least.  If this makes it to a group buy, do this or have one option for Iso and that's it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 10 September 2014, 21:04:34
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)


That.  Is. Almost. Perfect.

Change that ISO enter to ANSI and add some 1x keys between the Alt / Ctrl.

Amazing.

I concur for prototyping at least.  If this makes it to a group buy, do this or have one option for Iso and that's it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 10 September 2014, 22:01:46
More and useful keys?  I like it.

Now we just need a split/ergo version, too!

/runs

Go see the GH36 project in my sig.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I would honestly only use that as a standalone 10-key pad type solution.  A tented 122 ANSI layout keyboard (MS Ergo style, not Ergodox style) would be perfect for me.  It keeps all keys in their standard location, is tented, and gives me a whole slew of keys I can use for volume and media without the need of having to hit more than 1 key at a time.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpecTP on Thu, 11 September 2014, 10:36:26

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  @SpecTP, if you'd care to donate one of those keyboards on the shelf, I would be happy to send you a pre-paid mailer.  I also used to use them to write some RPG, although it was on an older S/38!

I'll keep you in mind if we tag the inventory for removal.  They're all a mix of IBM and Unicomp model M's.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 11 September 2014, 13:55:30
Here is the matrix I am going to use as a base.

I'll add ANSI, ISO, Winkeyless and possibly JIS and/or a split spacebar.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Krogenar on Thu, 11 September 2014, 14:53:28
Here is the matrix I am going to use as a base.

I'll add ANSI, ISO, Winkeyless and possibly JIS and/or a split spacebar.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

You could put a handle on the short end and use it as a broadsword.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:04:44
Here is the matrix I am going to use as a base.

I'll add ANSI, ISO, Winkeyless and possibly JIS and/or a split spacebar.

 - Ron | samwisekoi


[insert dancing banana gif]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 11 September 2014, 16:36:08
If someone wants a stupidly large Alps keyboard, and has some money to burn, this is pretty ridiculous:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231329823834
Ortek MCK-142PRO

I’m guessing complicated white Alps, but who knows.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/16lviiL.jpg)

Looks like someone bought this monster. Was it someone here? If so, let us know what it’s like when it arrives. (Is it as ridiculous in person as it looks from the picture? :p )
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 11 September 2014, 19:19:42
This layout would almost work on that PCB - except for the F row :

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2a48b060fef5b575e0d9d4b468fdd807
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 12 September 2014, 09:52:10
This layout would almost work on that PCB - except for the F row :

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2a48b060fef5b575e0d9d4b468fdd807

Fine.  This is the matrix...

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Although this makes me want to add just one more row above...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 12 September 2014, 10:04:52
I would be fine with an additional row up top.  After seeing that Ortek 142 Pro, that's hard to beat as far as stupidly large layouts go.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Fri, 12 September 2014, 17:14:18
Might we be moving far away from "using the unicomp cases" plan with all these extra keys?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 13 September 2014, 09:08:51
Might we be moving far away from "using the unicomp cases" plan with all these extra keys?

Yep.  I was just about to sit down and make some choices.  Practical and aesthetic choices.

I'd like to be able to support the Unicomp PC-122 case, as well as a standard 104. And then add extras for looks, function, and differentation.

No sword handles, however.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 13 September 2014, 12:57:48
That new "F row" needs to be spaced differently if you're thinking about having it support a conventional 101-104-108 case and plate.   The gap between Esc and F1 seems to be about 1.25x, while the ones between F4 and F5 and F8 and F9 are closer to 0.5x
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 13 September 2014, 14:28:32
That new "F row" needs to be spaced differently if you're thinking about having it support a conventional 101-104-108 case and plate.   The gap between Esc and F1 seems to be about 1.25x, while the ones between F4 and F5 and F8 and F9 are closer to 0.5x

So for a conventional 104, Escape is 1x above Tilde.  For the matrix I am working on, that position would be R2C3, not R1C1.

The vertical gap between the main body and the upper row will be 0.750".  The horizontal gaps between blocks will be 0.325" to match the PC-122 case.  I measured many cases, and the horizontal gap seems very much not standardized, with Rosewell coming closest to the Unicomp spacing.  The range I found was 0.250" to 0.375".  (The Leopold TKL I am using at the moment seems to have a horizontal gap of 0.3", measured without disassemly.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 14 September 2014, 11:22:47
Final matrix except for mods and bottom row.

Vertical gaps are 0.750".  Horizontal gaps are 0.325" to fit Unicomp PC-122 case.

Majority of upper "PF" block enables shifting left or right by one-half switch unit (0.375") to enable separated blocks of four or eight keys as in a standard ANSI 104 keyboard.  Thus both PC-122 and ANSI 104 compatibility is retained.

Full backlighting is provided.  Sub-block backlight zones are not provided, but I may add WASD backlighting.  Individual block backlighting will be supported in hardware.  I am probably going to locate CAPS and NUMLOCK LEDs above the numpad as done on IBM keyboards.  I *may* add a secondary CAPS LED position as seen on some boards.

All blocks will be removable and connectable.  The controller section will be in the upper RH corner, and will be useable as-is or detached.

Mods To Do List:
 - CAPS stepped or centered
 - ANSI, including PCB-mount stabilizers
 - ISO, probably requiring plate-mount stabs
 - Winkeyless (1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom row, probably with support for PCB-mount stabilizers
 - JIS and/or split spacebar support, probably requiring plate-mount stabs
 - Probably support for long spacebar(s) using plate-mount stabs
 - Possibly support for one or two "Big-Ass" Return keys using plate-mount stabs.

Clearly I've abandoned the 208-switch matrix.  That was for both practical and aesthetic reasons.  This board is still 20 inches wide and 7 inches tall before you add a case!  Big enough, IMHO.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate feedback, especially from the list of members signed up for the initial run.

Have I covered all the bases needed for GeekHack's first mega-board?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: AKmalamute on Sun, 14 September 2014, 16:49:11
It'll be a long time before I can get in on this, but I like everything I see, assuming you find some way to make the WKL bottom row of the day sit beside the 1.25 mod layout that "standard" keycap kits provide (will this require two full kits, now?)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 14 September 2014, 17:08:31
I think that will work.  Support both the PC122 case and have the extra switch positions for additional keys if desired.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 14 September 2014, 20:56:17
WTF is the JIS Bottom Row?

I have not found a definitive reference, so I'd like confirmation that the JIS bottom row is:

1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 3.25 spacebar - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.25  http://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_JIS

I have also seen:

1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 2.5 spacebar - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.5  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout

and

1.5 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.5 - 2.5 spacebar - 1.5 - 1.25 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.25   http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/scancodes-8.html

I cannot find a written spec in English, but it appears to be Japanese Industrial Standard JIS X 6002:1980.

Lysol Ivan, you asked for it, so please tell me what you think it should be!

Thanks all,

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Sun, 14 September 2014, 21:07:06
looks good!
personally, i prefer the off-center caps, and the 3x1.25--6.25--4x1.25 for the bottom row
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Mon, 15 September 2014, 05:24:27
Haha, the JIS layout is confusing, I don't think there is a standard, for various projects of mine, whenever I tried to find a JIS layout, there were too many variants.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 September 2014, 09:13:34
Whatever key sizes doesn't really matter as long as they are all normal sizes that are easy to source from anywhere. 2.75 space is good. I like the one Cherry used fine, but I wondered what was the point of using a 1.5 key when could have made right win or menu 1.25 instead.
(http://www.vshopu.com/item/208Z-2402/208Z-2402_03.jpg)

Or something like this is fine
(http://i.imgur.com/Jl2O0.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 15 September 2014, 09:15:36
Ok, unless someone (Ivan?) has strong opinions otherwise, I am going to go with the following layout for JIS:

1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 2.75 spacebar* - 1.25 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1.5


*I went with a 2.75x spacebar because it is an attainable keycap size.


In addition to being made up from attainable keycaps, it also has lots of direct overlap with ANSI and Winkeyless, so it fits well.

Exploded diagram of target bottom rows attached.  (1x15 row is for reference only!)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  Ok, Ivan replied while I was typing, so it looks like we are in sync.  Thank you sir!

p.p.s.  Alps-compatibility may be compromised by all the overlap.  As a result I may have to restrict Alps switches to a single bottom row layout, probably ANSI.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 15 September 2014, 09:28:20
And here is where we are.  Looks like no fatal overlap between the various bottom rows.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Mon, 15 September 2014, 09:42:16
I don't personally use a 2.75x (I prefer 1x), but yes, I support any variant with a commonly available keycap size. Right shift sizes are common and lots of people have them and they use 2x stabilizers which are also common. And right shift is often the same profile as space bar which beats using a Row 4 relegendable 1x on the space bar. So this is a practical solution.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:13:06
On that 3rd modifier from the right (with the 1x / 1.25x / 1.5x positions all next to each other); does that one through hole where the Alps pin touches the Cherry pin present any issue?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:37:35
On that 3rd modifier from the right (with the 1x / 1.25x / 1.5x positions all next to each other); does that one through hole where the Alps pin touches the Cherry pin present any issue?

Yes, any touching of a pin_1 and a pin_2 would be fatal.  But take a look at the multi-position CAPS switch mounts to see my solution.

But the proof will be in the pudding; or in this case the traces.  We'll see what I can do when I get there.

Thanks for pointing that spot out.  It is very helpful!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 15 September 2014, 16:14:22
On your caps lock layout, looks like the through hole is only partially plated on the top and bottom 'sides', so one could solder the appropriate pin to only needed 'side' of the hole?  Side in this case is probably not the best word though, since one would only be soldering from the back side of the PCB.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 15 September 2014, 17:47:07
On your caps lock layout, looks like the through hole is only partially plated on the top and bottom 'sides', so one could solder the appropriate pin to only needed 'side' of the hole?  Side in this case is probably not the best word though, since one would only be soldering from the back side of the PCB.

Yes, exactly.  Conductor and soldermask are only present on the lower half of the Alps pads, although the Alps holes remain to spec.

This will make it tricky but possible to solder an Alps switch in that position, and there is no short created between any of the eight switch pads.  I'll do the same as needed for the bottom row.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I've attached a close-up of the mod made to the pads on the impacted bottom-row switch positions.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 15 September 2014, 21:17:55
One other thought.  Maybe have a small area around the through hole that doesn't have a solder mask over the trace, so one could cut the un-needed trace with an exacto knife?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 16 September 2014, 13:22:06
One other thought.  Maybe have a small area around the through hole that doesn't have a solder mask over the trace, so one could cut the un-needed trace with an exacto knife?

That is an interesting idea.  I'd worry about long-term reliability (and noob soldering) but I'll take a look and see if that can work.

It would certainly make the LED-chooser circuit on the GH36 easier to use.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 22 September 2014, 10:17:41
Finally an update here...

This is a monster PCB, so I am trying to get in 30 minutes of layout time each morning to keep progress moving and keep mistakes to a minimum.  I've hit a design milestone:  All switches, rows, and columns have traces run.  All holes and pads are done, and I am ready to do LED and controller wiring.

FYI, there will be a total of 45 pins going to the controller!

I am planning to have individual LED control for each block, plus WASD (all PWM.)  Including non-PWM indicator LED circuits, here is the planned list of LED circuits:

NUM
CAPS
FN
FN2
LED1
LED2
LED3
LED4
LED5
LED6
LED7
WASD


I have not worked out cut lines yet.  I can't support TKL, and anyhow, what is the point?  I will support full-size and full-width. 

Does anyone anticipate building a tall TKL?  That is the one that will be hardest to support.

Anyhow, here is a screen-shot of the PCB so far.  I have a full-resolution version, but that is 3M compressed, so I have not posted it.  Ask and ye shall receive!

Anyhow.  That is the news from Lake Wobegon for today.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 22 September 2014, 19:38:09
Looking good.  Only see some nitpicky stuff, nothing function impacting.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 22 September 2014, 20:28:59
i unhid this forum just to say that i love this idea and will certainly be buying one
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 22 September 2014, 21:02:10
i unhid this forum just to say that i love this idea and will certainly be buying one

Why do you hide the best subforum...?   :'(
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Mon, 22 September 2014, 21:09:34
Finally an update here...

This is a monster PCB, so I am trying to get in 30 minutes of layout time each morning to keep progress moving and keep mistakes to a minimum.  I've hit a design milestone:  All switches, rows, and columns have traces run.  All holes and pads are done, and I am ready to do LED and controller wiring.

FYI, there will be a total of 45 pins going to the controller!

I am planning to have individual LED control for each block, plus WASD (all PWM.)  Including non-PWM indicator LED circuits, here is the planned list of LED circuits:

NUM
CAPS
FN
FN2
LED1
LED2
LED3
LED4
LED5
LED6
LED7
WASD


I have not worked out cut lines yet.  I can't support TKL, and anyhow, what is the point?  I will support full-size and full-width. 

Does anyone anticipate building a tall TKL?  That is the one that will be hardest to support.

Anyhow, here is a screen-shot of the PCB so far.  I have a full-resolution version, but that is 3M compressed, so I have not posted it.  Ask and ye shall receive!

Anyhow.  That is the news from Lake Wobegon for today.

 - Ron | samwisekoi



it looks good! so good... i might get 2 of these. not unless you're planning a v2.
btw, as i'm new to pcb design my apologies in advance for asking --- what are those lines in the upper right part of the board?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 22 September 2014, 23:08:50
it looks good! so good... i might get 2 of these. not unless you're planning a v2.
btw, as i'm new to pcb design my apologies in advance for asking --- what are those lines in the upper right part of the board?
It's a work in progress so they won't look like that on the finished board. I would expect they show trace spacing so he can check the amount of space those 45 incoming traces will take up to ensure he has enough space in the controller area.

i unhid this forum just to say that i love this idea and will certainly be buying one

Why do you hide the best subforum...?   :'(
It's ok. I set him straight. Welcome to GH, tacticalstache.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Tue, 23 September 2014, 02:36:52
it looks good! so good... i might get 2 of these. not unless you're planning a v2.
btw, as i'm new to pcb design my apologies in advance for asking --- what are those lines in the upper right part of the board?
It's a work in progress so they won't look like that on the finished board. I would expect they show trace spacing so he can check the amount of space those 45 incoming traces will take up to ensure he has enough space in the controller area.

i unhid this forum just to say that i love this idea and will certainly be buying one

Why do you hide the best subforum...?   :'(
It's ok. I set him straight. Welcome to GH, tacticalstache.


understood. thank you sir
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Tue, 23 September 2014, 04:00:43
i unhid this forum just to say that i love this idea and will certainly be buying one

Why do you hide the best subforum...?   :'(

BEST.SUBFORUM.EVER
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 23 September 2014, 08:31:37
Thanks all!

Looking good.  Only see some nitpicky stuff, nothing function impacting.

What? The wiggly traces that avoid invisible obstacles?  That was to enable standardized switch cells.  Anything else?  Tell me now while they are still just pixels.

(Don't count the between-block trace stubs.  Those will be used or removed.)

it looks good! so good... i might get 2 of these. not unless you're planning a v2.
btw, as i'm new to pcb design my apologies in advance for asking --- what are those lines in the upper right part of the board?
It's a work in progress so they won't look like that on the finished board. I would expect they show trace spacing so he can check the amount of space those 45 incoming traces will take up to ensure he has enough space in the controller area.

^ This.  0.006" can carry 0.59A and 0.010" can carry 1.14A.  Those test blocks show the difference in density between the two trace widths.  I used 0,010" in the blocks, and will use it for LED power distribution.  I'll use 0.006" for signal traces in the controller area and for signal distribution.  Ground and VCC will use 0.010" or larger.  In theory the board could pull 2.5A if all LEDs are populated and lit at 100%, but 2.5A far exceeds the USB spec.  Also, it would require 0.050" traces!  If I add an external power port, I'll use traces that big for ground and +5v.

Last call for Jumbo TKL support!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 23 September 2014, 09:47:39
Name Change?  GH-132?

So this is way bigger than a 122-key keyboard.  I counted 138 max switches out of something like 200 switch positions available.  However, visually it is a 122 plus two extra blocks for a nominal one hundred and thirty two keys.

So I propose calling it, henceforth, the GH-132.

1:1 image attached in the White-on-Black the PCB will actually be.  I rendered the GH132 logo in silkscreened "traces" that represent the logo from many posts back.

Thoughts?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 23 September 2014, 10:48:59
Finally an update here...

This is a monster PCB, so I am trying to get in 30 minutes of layout time each morning to keep progress moving and keep mistakes to a minimum.  I've hit a design milestone:  All switches, rows, and columns have traces run.  All holes and pads are done, and I am ready to do LED and controller wiring.

FYI, there will be a total of 45 pins going to the controller!

I am planning to have individual LED control for each block, plus WASD (all PWM.)  Including non-PWM indicator LED circuits, here is the planned list of LED circuits:

NUM
CAPS
FN
FN2
LED1
LED2
LED3
LED4
LED5
LED6
LED7
WASD


I have not worked out cut lines yet.  I can't support TKL, and anyhow, what is the point?  I will support full-size and full-width. 

Does anyone anticipate building a tall TKL?  That is the one that will be hardest to support.

Anyhow, here is a screen-shot of the PCB so far.  I have a full-resolution version, but that is 3M compressed, so I have not posted it.  Ask and ye shall receive!

Anyhow.  That is the news from Lake Wobegon for today.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Seriously, I can't tell whether to call you a genius or a madman when I see how complicated everything is. This is one awesome PCB, and it is only a shame that most people including me will never be able to fully appreciate the awesomeness of what you have done.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 23 September 2014, 11:13:23
Thanks all!

Looking good.  Only see some nitpicky stuff, nothing function impacting.

What? The wiggly traces that avoid invisible obstacles?  That was to enable standardized switch cells.  Anything else?  Tell me now while they are still just pixels.

(Don't count the between-block trace stubs.  Those will be used or removed.)


 - Ron | samwisekoi

Exactly that, some traces are a straight 45 degree over, others are two 90s where an earlier stab hole has been removed.  Not functionally different, just looks different.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 23 September 2014, 11:54:41
If I got a PCB I think I would frame it or put it up on display. I would feel bad soldering on such beauty.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 23 September 2014, 11:57:15
If I got a PCB I think I would frame it or put it up on display. I would feel bad soldering on such beauty.

I would buy two and get one epoxied into a table top.   :cool:
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 September 2014, 12:01:20
It might be kind of cool to make it possible to have TKL like the IBM
(http://www.9999hp.net/keyboard/temp/1387033.jpg)
but anything less would just be silly as there are plenty of other choices for regular.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 23 September 2014, 12:14:12
It might be kind of cool to make it possible to have TKL like the IBM
Show Image
(http://www.9999hp.net/keyboard/temp/1387033.jpg)

but anything less would just be silly as there are plenty of other choices for regular.

That exact format is the one I am on the brink of struggling to support or abandoning.  Do you think you or anyone else would actually build one?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

p.s.  I completely agree it is cool.  Sadly it also puts the controller far to the right of the final column.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 September 2014, 13:36:46
Me, I would be more likely to make a TKL without the top rows, more like an F AT sort of deal. I suppose it would be cool to make it that versatile, but you would have to move all the traces that go to the controller daughterboard and I don't know how hard that is.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 23 September 2014, 21:19:12
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

I can't for the life of me figure out why I might need layers, but I am sure I do.  Right?  And if we have layers, we should have MODES.  That way you can press a single key and be in HTML coding mode, and another and be hacking limbs off of zombies, and another and be designing PCBs, etc.

For some reason gamer keyboards (IIRC) use Gn keys for that purpose.  And it seems like the four keys in the upper-left corner would be good for that purpose.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5e5991e096e9d247a50933cfded78416

So here is the question:  Should I run indicator LEDs to those four keys?

I mean, WTF, anyhow.  It isn't like this isn't already a stupidly large keyboard.  What are four more traces between fellow freaks friends?

Serious question:  Would indicator LEDs be interesting in that corner of the board?


 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: user 18 on Tue, 23 September 2014, 22:21:51
yeah, that would be almost a perfect use of that four-key cluster.

Make sure it works still if you set it up as three keys though.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Flamingchook on Tue, 23 September 2014, 22:51:07
Tall TKL support would be cool and I would definitely build one but honestly if it's too much work don't worry about it.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Wed, 24 September 2014, 05:15:17
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

I can't for the life of me figure out why I might need layers, but I am sure I do.  Right?  And if we have layers, we should have MODES.  That way you can press a single key and be in HTML coding mode, and another and be hacking limbs off of zombies, and another and be designing PCBs, etc.

For some reason gamer keyboards (IIRC) use Gn keys for that purpose.  And it seems like the four keys in the upper-left corner would be good for that purpose.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5e5991e096e9d247a50933cfded78416

So here is the question:  Should I run indicator LEDs to those four keys?

I mean, WTF, anyhow.  It isn't like this isn't already a stupidly large keyboard.  What are four more traces between fellow freaks friends?

Serious question:  Would indicator LEDs be interesting in that corner of the board?


 - Ron | samwisekoi


....and using the unicomp cases is out?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 24 September 2014, 05:53:50
That would be cool, this keyboard NEEDS relegendables.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 24 September 2014, 08:34:14
Thanks for the feedback!

....and using the unicomp cases is out?

Oh, no, using the Unicomp PC-122 case is most definitely IN.

You will be limited to a measly 122 keys, however!  ;)


Tall TKL support would be cool and I would definitely build one but honestly if it's too much work don't worry about it.

I shall try.

yeah, that would be almost a perfect use of that four-key cluster.

Make sure it works still if you set it up as three keys though.

Yep.

That would be cool, this keyboard NEEDS relegendables.

Yes, I have come to that conclusion as well.  You can look forward to a small PMK GB for those for sure.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Wed, 24 September 2014, 08:44:47
Using those four keys to toggle layers and having indicator LEDs would be awesome. 
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Wed, 24 September 2014, 10:27:24
Using those four keys to toggle layers and having indicator LEDs would be awesome. 

Or use the Home/Rule key between the arrow keys...

With a superblack!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 24 September 2014, 23:56:13
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

This (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_x:2.5&a:5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM3&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM4&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM6&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM8&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APlay&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APrev&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ANext&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AStop&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AVOL%20UP&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AVOL%20DN&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AMUTE%3B&@_a:4&w:2%3B&=RUN%20STOP&_x:0.5&a:5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF3&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF4&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF6&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF8&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF9&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF10&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF11&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF12&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APLOT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASCRL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASTOP%3B&@_y:1%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AGEEK%20HACK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARAD%20S&_x:0.5%3B&=~%0A`&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ABackspace&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AINS&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AHOME&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APAGE%20UP&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ANUM%20LOCK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A÷&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AX&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A-%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ADEF%20CON&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aα&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ATAB&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AQ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AW&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AE&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AR&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AY&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AU&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AI&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AO&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AP&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ADEL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AEND&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APAGE%20DOWN&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A8&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A9&_h:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A+%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARAD%20S&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aβ&_x:0.5&w:1.75&l:true%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACAPS%20LOCK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AA&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AS&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AD&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AG&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AH&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AJ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AL&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARETURN&_x:4%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A4&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A6%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AFN&_a:1%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aγ&_x:0.5&a:5&w:2.25%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASHIFT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AZ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AX&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AC&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AV&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AB&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AN&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASHIFT&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A↑&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A3&_h:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ALINE%20FEED%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ALINE%20FEED&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0An&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACTRL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AWIN&_w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AALT&_a:4&w:7%3B&=&_a:5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AALT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AMENU&_w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACTRL&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A←&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A↓&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A→&_x:0.5&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A0&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A.) is what I'm envisioning:

The 1.5-1-1.5 modifiers are easier to source for ALPS caps.  May end up going all-1.25x if any ALPS-oriented group buys get off the ground, although I do have a nice 7x spacebar handy.

I'm probably going to source the "second function row" from a Focus FK-9000, which has a left side function cluster AND some incredibly tall function keys on top.  I'm sort of contemplating a power button somewhere in the left block-- right now.

The big "Run Stop" escape in that location gives it a nice isolation, letting you pound it in frustration easily... something you lose in more conventional 122s.  It may end up being a 1.25x, red-text-on-beige Esc from the FK-9000.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 25 September 2014, 09:32:01
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

This (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_x:2.5&a:5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM3&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM4&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM6&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM8&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APlay&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APrev&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ANext&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AStop&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AVOL%20UP&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AVOL%20DN&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AMUTE%3B&@_a:4&w:2%3B&=RUN%20STOP&_x:0.5&a:5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF3&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF4&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF6&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF8&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF9&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF10&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF11&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF12&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APLOT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASCRL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASTOP%3B&@_y:1%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AGEEK%20HACK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARAD%20S&_x:0.5%3B&=~%0A`&=!%0A1&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ABackspace&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AINS&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AHOME&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APAGE%20UP&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ANUM%20LOCK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A÷&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AX&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A-%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ADEF%20CON&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aα&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ATAB&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AQ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AW&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AE&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AR&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AY&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AU&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AI&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AO&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AP&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ADEL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AEND&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0APAGE%20DOWN&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A7&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A8&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A9&_h:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A+%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARAD%20S&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aβ&_x:0.5&w:1.75&l:true%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACAPS%20LOCK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AA&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AS&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AD&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AF&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AG&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AH&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AJ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AK&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AL&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ARETURN&_x:4%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A4&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A5&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A6%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AFN&_a:1%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Aγ&_x:0.5&a:5&w:2.25%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASHIFT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AZ&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AX&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AC&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AV&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AB&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AN&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AM&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ASHIFT&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A↑&_x:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A1&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A2&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A3&_h:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ALINE%20FEED%3B&@=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ALINE%20FEED&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0An&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACTRL&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AWIN&_w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AALT&_a:4&w:7%3B&=&_a:5&w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AALT&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0AMENU&_w:1.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ACTRL&_x:0.5%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A←&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A↓&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A→&_x:0.5&w:2%3B&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A0&=%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A.) is what I'm envisioning:

The 1.5-1-1.5 modifiers are easier to source for ALPS caps.  May end up going all-1.25x if any ALPS-oriented group buys get off the ground, although I do have a nice 7x spacebar handy.

I'm probably going to source the "second function row" from a Focus FK-9000, which has a left side function cluster AND some incredibly tall function keys on top.  I'm sort of contemplating a power button somewhere in the left block-- right now.

The big "Run Stop" escape in that location gives it a nice isolation, letting you pound it in frustration easily... something you lose in more conventional 122s.  It may end up being a 1.25x, red-text-on-beige Esc from the FK-9000.

Very nice layout! I may replicate it in MX. Possibly with a couple of mode keys above the RUN/STOP key.

Also, I have started the process of a small GB for re-legendables to match Nuclear Data Green.  I think 1x and 2x in green and orange.

Finally, the wedge case design I did for the GH36 is a proof of concept for a matching case for this board.  Check it out in the GH36 thread or on Shapeways.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 25 September 2014, 20:30:40
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

EDIT

Added some color : http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1e0b6b7678890af0e5de085058ff5711
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Fri, 26 September 2014, 13:25:53
How will YOU use those 153 switch positions?  (Yes, I finally counted.)

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I'd bind a bunch of keys to macros to launch commonly used tools such as calculators, terminal windows, browsers, etc.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 28 September 2014, 09:48:25
I'm good with GH-132.  Just wanted to say thanks for all of your work on this.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:18:43

Also, I have started the process of a small GB for re-legendables to match Nuclear Data Green.  I think 1x and 2x in green and orange.

Finally, the wedge case design I did for the GH36 is a proof of concept for a matching case for this board.  Check it out in the GH36 thread or on Shapeways.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

SA profile I hope? Is it possible to have different rows? I need lots for the lowest rows; my matrix layouts dispense with big spacebars and turn the rest into customized keys.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:36:26
I suspect it's designed to match the Nuclear Data set, which is all Row 3, as I recall.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:48:20
Wondering about adding a solenoid to mine, not sure there is enough power or pins left though.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 28 September 2014, 13:57:05
Just out of curiosity, what would you want to do with a solenoid?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sun, 28 September 2014, 14:10:31
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 28 September 2014, 15:05:16
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.

Ha, no.

Mount it in the case, with the plunger set to hit the side of the case with every keypress.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 28 September 2014, 16:29:56
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.

Ha, no.

Mount it in the case, with the plunger set to hit the side of the case with every keypress.

Seriously?  Why not a tiny speaker?

In any event, this is such an entertaining concept that if there is an unused pin I shall run it to a pad labelled "SOLENOID".  Or possibly "0100010"

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 28 September 2014, 16:51:43
LOL!  Was just an idea.  I saw xwhatits solenoid drivers for his USB capsense controllers for the IBM beamsprings, and I saw these small 5V solenoids on sparkfun and thought why the hell not.

On a more serious note - what was the horizontal width between the blocks?  The plate I have drawn up currently has 0.375":

(http://s13.postimg.org/w5n3x1qvb/Plate132.jpg)

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 28 September 2014, 17:04:48
0.325" pending a more careful measurement of the Unicomp case.

0.750" vertical gap to the Fn keys.  Probably final.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 28 September 2014, 17:13:22
Seriously?  Why not a tiny speaker?
If you’ve never tried a keyboard with a solenoid inside, you’re really missing out. Way more fun than a speaker.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 28 September 2014, 17:46:56
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.

Ha, no.

Mount it in the case, with the plunger set to hit the side of the case with every keypress.

Seriously?  Why not a tiny speaker?

In any event, this is such an entertaining concept that if there is an unused pin I shall run it to a pad labelled "SOLENOID".  Or possibly "0100010"

 - Ron | samwisekoi
solenoid is waaaay better than speaker but there is most likely not enough power from usb to run it and the full LED backlighting as well.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 28 September 2014, 18:28:23
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.

Ha, no.

Mount it in the case, with the plunger set to hit the side of the case with every keypress.

Seriously?  Why not a tiny speaker?

In any event, this is such an entertaining concept that if there is an unused pin I shall run it to a pad labelled "SOLENOID".  Or possibly "0100010"

 - Ron | samwisekoi
solenoid is waaaay better than speaker but there is most likely not enough power from usb to run it and the full LED backlighting as well.

This is why Gods gave us external power bricks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: blackbox on Mon, 29 September 2014, 09:12:37
Just read through the whole thread. Very inspiring and I might buy one when its finished!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 29 September 2014, 13:30:09
It's attached to the plunger of a syringe, so every time he strikes a key, it injects just a little heroin in.

Ha, no.

Mount it in the case, with the plunger set to hit the side of the case with every keypress.

Seriously?  Why not a tiny speaker?

In any event, this is such an entertaining concept that if there is an unused pin I shall run it to a pad labelled "SOLENOID".  Or possibly "0100010"

 - Ron | samwisekoi
solenoid is waaaay better than speaker but there is most likely not enough power from usb to run it and the full LED backlighting as well.

This is why Gods gave us external power bricks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Gotta check and see if there's space in the case for a SLA battery

Actually that gives me an idea. I wonder how much power the solenoid uses. Maybe you can power it from a battery that charges whenever you're not typing (like at night when the computer is hibernated, it charges the battery, etc.)

Depending on power requirements you could just charge it pretty dumbly and not even need another teensy pin. (though It'd need some driver circuitry and battery charging on a sub board).
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 30 September 2014, 09:34:59
I'm working on cases.  This is the shape I have come up with for the GH36, JD40, and GH-122.  It is a "topless wedge" with rounded edges.  It is designed to accept a 3mm/.125" acrylic top panel either as a plate or as a block separator.

[attachimg=1]
Topless Wedge Case by samwisekoi 2014

It is $50 +/- for the smaller boards at Shapeways, but 3D printing is way too expensive ($300+) for an object as long as a GH-122 case.

Anyhow, this is the design path I am taking for the GH-122.  It will hold all possible variations with a simple laser-cut top plate to change.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 30 September 2014, 11:16:14
3mm plate as block separator?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: caseyandgina on Tue, 30 September 2014, 11:29:09
I'm sorry, this doesn't qualify as "stupidly large".

I think this is a good baseline:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/45/HONEY_HYPER7.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 30 September 2014, 12:16:16
3mm plate as block separator?

Sorry; post was too quick.

That case design is made to use a 3mm/0.125" thick laser-cut top plate.  That top plate can be cut with a large number of 0.55"x0.55" "rectangular" holes to support switches, plus holes for stabilizers and LEDs.  Or, it can be cut with much large rectangular holes plus inverted-T or plus-sign shaped holes for the main keypad block and the various function/bnav key blocks..  If you did the latter, then the top plate would provide the same block separation and gap coverage as the top of a TKL plate does between blocks and around the arrow keys.

And, because the top plate would be the only thing that changes between layouts, the main case can be made in bulk and individuals can have top plates laser or CNC-cut from metal, plastic, or wood as they see fit.

Does that explain the concept better?

(I'd do a rendering, but I've moved to TinkerCAD, and it is down for maintenance this morning.)

I'm sorry, this doesn't qualify as "stupidly large".

I think this is a good baseline:
Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/45/HONEY_HYPER7.png)

That is actually smaller than the GH-122/153.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:16:20
I'm working on cases.  This is the shape I have come up with for the GH36, JD40, and GH-122.  It is a "topless wedge" with rounded edges.  It is designed to accept a 3mm/.125" acrylic top panel either as a plate or as a block separator.

(Attachment Link)
Topless Wedge Case by samwisekoi 2014

It is $50 +/- for the smaller boards at Shapeways, but 3D printing is way too expensive ($300+) for an object as long as a GH-122 case.

Anyhow, this is the design path I am taking for the GH-122.  It will hold all possible variations with a simple laser-cut top plate to change.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Samwisekoi, what do you think of a modular casing design to match the Gh122? If the PCB is easy to cut down for smaller layouts, why not make smaller casing sections that join together? Making kits like these are much easier to ship, build, store, make.

An ugly version is here, Azio Levetron. http://www.mwave.com.au/images/auto_d_image/24020517_02.jpg

Another example is the keyboard I am now typing on, the Tipro. Tipro casings have side panels that can be removed so that the keyboard can be joined up with extra modules. Its all pretty robust and solid. I think it is much easier to cut the casing from multiple flat pieces and join these together, than to do 3D printing. The Tipro pieces are largely flat except for one wedge shaped front panel.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 30 September 2014, 14:27:22
A possibility.  Thanks!

I just now drafted a 2D layout and uploaded it to Pololu for a quote on a similar design made from 3mm and 6mm flat Acrylic pieces.  (For the 5x5" GH36.)  I will use that to evaluate GH-122/153 case design options.

But it is appealing to have some sort of Lego-style modular case.

I'll post the sample I am having made if it doesn't just blow.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 30 September 2014, 19:02:42
... because the top plate would be the only thing that changes between layouts, the main case can be made in bulk and individuals can have top plates laser or CNC-cut from metal, plastic, or wood as they see fit.

Does that explain the concept better?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

So basically what you're envisioning is mask or filler for the unused portions of the board, in addition to the normal plate?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 30 September 2014, 21:18:16
Could a similar case be made by bending sheet metal... maybe with a plastic "plug" on the sides
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Tue, 30 September 2014, 23:48:43
And the unicomp case?   ...
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 01 October 2014, 09:30:55
Could a similar case be made by bending sheet metal... maybe with a plastic "plug" on the sides

Yes, certainly.  We need two U-bends, one approximately 0.500" diameter and the other approximately 1.750" diameter.  That is the key problem in the case; I cannot find a material that comes in U-bends of both of those sizes.  Acrylic could be heated and draped, styrene could be vacuum-formed, metal could be rolled, and possibly, possibly, PVC pipe could be sliced lengthwise to form the U, but I've found no one who will do that.

And the unicomp case?   ...

As above, the PCB will be sized to fit into the Unicomp PC-122 case.  I have one of those cases at my desk, and I will ensure the PCB can be cut to fit into the 122-key positions on that case.

This is their keyboard:  http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/PC122

Case available in black or Pearl for $20 plus shipping:  http://pckeyboard.com/page/Misc/CVSET

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Wed, 01 October 2014, 13:32:06
I could make an acrylic case for this and the GH-36 once the PCBs are finalised. Will definitely not be able to get them made as i am not in India anymore and  handling others money is not something I want to do anymore.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 02 October 2014, 03:28:31
Hey guys

My Tipro photos are up. Please take a look to see if we can gain any lessons from these guys. Sorry that the color is black so it’s really hard to see, and that my photographic skills are non-existent.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63510.msg1487567#msg1487567


-=-=
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Thu, 02 October 2014, 03:41:19
is it possible to add a USB hub/ports to this monster?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 02 October 2014, 08:57:35
is it possible to add a USB hub/ports to this monster?

Possible?  Sure.  On the PCB?  Probably not.  In fact, the keyboard might need TWO USB cables just to get enough power if all of the LEDs are populated and lit.  (Apparently this is also true of the new Corsair "tramp stamp" Gaming XL RGB keyboard.)

Hey guys

My Tipro photos are up. Please take a look to see if we can gain any lessons from these guys. Sorry that the color is black so it’s really hard to see, and that my photographic skills are non-existent.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63510.msg1487567#msg1487567
-=-=


Thanks very much.  This is indeed helpful.

Question:  Is the upper casing in photos #27-32 a single piece?  If so, that is the problem piece for the GH-122/153.

But thanks.  These photos will be helpful.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: bianco on Thu, 02 October 2014, 09:03:13
is it possible to add a USB hub/ports to this monster?

Possible?  Sure.  On the PCB?  Probably not.  In fact, the keyboard might need TWO USB cables just to get enough power if all of the LEDs are populated and lit.  (Apparently this is also true of the new Corsair "tramp stamp" Gaming XL RGB keyboard.)

Hey guys

My Tipro photos are up. Please take a look to see if we can gain any lessons from these guys. Sorry that the color is black so it’s really hard to see, and that my photographic skills are non-existent.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63510.msg1487567#msg1487567
-=-=


Thanks very much.  This is indeed helpful.

Question:  Is the upper casing in photos #27-32 a single piece?  If so, that is the problem piece for the GH-122/153.

But thanks.  These photos will be helpful.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

thanks Ron
although, i don't really mind not having LEDs, i think a hub/port would be more useful for me.
i guess i'll try to find out how to do that
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:05:15


http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63510.msg1487567#msg1487567
-=-=


Thanks very much.  This is indeed helpful.

Question:  Is the upper casing in photos #27-32 a single piece?  If so, that is the problem piece for the GH-122/153.

But thanks.  These photos will be helpful.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
[/quote]

Upper casing is indeed a single piece. But when I think about it, there is no inherent reason why it can't be assembled from several thick (3mm) pieces of plastic screwed together. That should reduce moulding costs which is the issue you're concerned with?

I think one major reason to have a moulded casing is because for most manufacturers ordering tens of thousands of casings, they can pay for the moulds. And in return, spending $2 on screws for each keyboard becomes unnecessary. For us with 50-500 orders getting some complicated mould made won't be economic. But in turn, for us each to spend $2 on a bag of screws is no big deal.

I am hoping that we can work this out well. Because if we can design modular casings effectively, possibly in future all geekhackdom will find it much easier and cheaper and we can attain economies of scale.

I'd bet that all geekhackers buy at least 5000 custom boards and casings per year, and that at least 3000 of these should be possibly covered within modular designs that accommodate numpad, 60%, TKL, 104-key and 122-key. If we can make things such that it becomes possible to shoot for production runs of 1000, we will get some serious support. Look at massdrop sales of a few hundred ergodoxes each batch. Can't we get 1000 people to buy parts sufficient to build casings if they were modular and versatile?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:09:18
I would recommend against using a secondary USB for power, it is considered very bad practice to do so. A wall-port is the way I would go. I think I posted this some pages back, but you can use the reference circuit from the Arduino board on how to implement an auto-switching USB system between PC-USB and wall-port.

Alternatively (My recommendation), we can use a wall-port powerable USB-hub IC which will handle the power distribution for us and provide extra USB ports to behave as a USB hub.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:38:22
is it possible to add a USB hub/ports to this monster?

I was thinking of this too.  Putting an externally powered USB hub in it, one port connected to the Teensy, the other port connected to an external port to connect to the computer, and yet other ports used only for power for other devices in the keyboard (LEDs, solenoid, LCD, etc).
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 02 October 2014, 12:14:56
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.

Case Design
Using the photos from berserkfan, I got the GH36 case down to $31 of laser-cut Acrylic for a PAIR of topless wedge cases.  And designed properly, that top frame for the GH-122/153 can be 3D printed for $49.  The rest of the case would be flat Acrylic or metal that can be easily laser-cut.

That is a HUGE win!

Thanks berserkfan!


 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 02 October 2014, 12:44:08
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.

Case Design
Using the photos from berserkfan, I got the GH36 case down to $31 of laser-cut Acrylic for a PAIR of topless wedge cases.  And designed properly, that top frame for the GH-122/153 can be 3D printed for $49.  The rest of the case would be flat Acrylic or metal that can be easily laser-cut.

That is a HUGE win!

Thanks berserkfan!


 - Ron | samwisekoi

I am happy to be useful for once!

But regarding that top frame, would it be possible to make it from a few flat pieces of plastic that we screw together with the aid of other plastic pieces to hold the screws, instead of via 3D printing? I am pretty much for avoiding the 3D printing process altogether, mainly because there are no economies of scale and the accretive process makes for less durable casings. I remember asking and the shop said the plastic they use melts at 65 degrees C. That’s ridiculous. If I left my keyboard in a car in summer, the keyboard would get soft and floppy!

Now another thing as you can see in my photos, the Tipro bottom plate actually has holes in it for sticking their rubber pads. I am for the use of rubber or silicon if you’re going for an acrylic bottom plate, because acrylic is too easy to scratch and also we want a keyboard that doesn’t slide off an uneven surface.

It’s late now. Tomorrow I will draw (by hand) an illustration of what I mean. I’m afraid I am too technologically ancient to do this any other way.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 02 October 2014, 15:35:37
Couple of things...

Power
My preference is to use an external 5v power brick for the LEDs.  Except for ground loop issues, this would be easy to implement; just run the external power source to the power rail of the LED transistors.  This is WAY DOWN on my to-do list.
I don't think ground loops will be an issue with this, but if you're worried, you just have to tie the grounds together at just one point.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:01:46
Based on berserkfan's input, I have put together a semi-modular case design.  It will use laser-cut side panels, a half-round rod for the front, and a flat metal or acrylic rectangle for the bottom.  I am getting a quote for the design in 5x5" form as a test, and if successful, will post larger format versions here.

I've attached a simple 3D rendering as well as the cut sheet for the side panels.  They will be cut from 6mm/0.250" black Acrylic.  I will have a 5x5" bottom piece cut from 3mm/0.125" matching Acrylic, and also a 4.5" front curve from 0.50" tall half-round rod.  The blue square on the cut sheet is a 1.00"x1.00" square for reference and calibration.

The support rod in the center is a simple 0.250x0.500" nylon tube for a stand-off.  The front half-round is clear Acrylic in this mock-up, and as such suitable for backlighting or adding indicator LEDs.

Anyhow, this is an extensible design.  Thanks, berserkfan!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

But regarding that top frame, would it be possible to make it from a few flat pieces of plastic that we screw together with the aid of other plastic pieces to hold the screws, instead of via 3D printing? I am pretty much for avoiding the 3D printing process altogether, mainly because there are no economies of scale and the accretive process makes for less durable casings. I remember asking and the shop said the plastic they use melts at 65 degrees C. That’s ridiculous. If I left my keyboard in a car in summer, the keyboard would get soft and floppy!

Now another thing as you can see in my photos, the Tipro bottom plate actually has holes in it for sticking their rubber pads. I am for the use of rubber or silicon if you’re going for an acrylic bottom plate, because acrylic is too easy to scratch and also we want a keyboard that doesn’t slide off an uneven surface.

It’s late now. Tomorrow I will draw (by hand) an illustration of what I mean. I’m afraid I am too technologically ancient to do this any other way.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:35:56

Anyhow, this is an extensible design.  Thanks, berserkfan!

 - Ron | samwisekoi


Well, I hope my hand-drawn designs were useful... I feel really embarrassed to be using hand drawn designs at a time when the entire younger generation seems to be CAD experts, that's why I told you over email not to show anyone what I'd done. Hope the modular idea will work in practice so that we can attain economies of scale for most keyboard casings.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:57:11
Looking very interesting Ron. The file "GH36x2 Laser Wedge Sides.png" represents pieces that have to be cut for a pair of cases if I'm not wrong, correct?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 04 October 2014, 12:58:11
A thought: on the full-size one, you could have several standoffs to reduce flex.  Looking at the empty case from my Ducky 1008XM, it has three or so standoffs.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 04 October 2014, 14:19:59
Well, I hope my hand-drawn designs were useful... I feel really embarrassed to be using hand drawn designs at a time when the entire younger generation seems to be CAD experts, that's why I told you over email not to show anyone what I'd done. Hope the modular idea will work in practice so that we can attain economies of scale for most keyboard casings.

They were.  I don't think we need quite that many parts, but an extensible design doesn't necessarily mean extensible parts.  I'll draft end plates for various widths, and longer back plates are probably attainable from any plastics shop.

A thought: on the full-size one, you could have several standoffs to reduce flex.  Looking at the empty case from my Ducky 1008XM, it has three or so standoffs.

Yes.  The GH36 has a single mounting hole in the center, and when used as a split keyboard, it really needs the center support.

I'll add more standoff mounts to the GH-122/153 PCB to enable a well-supported plate-less build.

Looking very interesting Ron. The file "GH36x2 Laser Wedge Sides.png" represents pieces that have to be cut for a pair of cases if I'm not wrong, correct?

You are exactly correct.  That is the cut template for a GH36x2 split keyboard.  The GH-122/153 would need fewer, larger pieces.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[UPDATE]

I drew this comparison up so people could see the various sizes of side plates next to each other.  From shortest to longest they are:
 - 5-row keyboard (60% through wide-and-narrow GH-122)
 - 6-row keyboard (GH36)
 - 8-row keyboard (Full-size GH-122/153)

Width is varied by getting longer or shorter front and back rails.  And then the bottom plate is sized to fit.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[/UPDATE]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 04 October 2014, 15:43:31
How do you intend for the pieces to combine?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 04 October 2014, 15:44:48

They were.  I don't think we need quite that many parts, but an extensible design doesn't necessarily mean extensible parts.  I'll draft end plates for various widths, and longer back plates are probably attainable from any plastics shop.

[UPDATE]

I drew this comparison up so people could see the various sizes of side plates next to each other.  From shortest to longest they are:
 - 5-row keyboard (60% through wide-and-narrow GH-122)
 - 6-row keyboard (GH36)
 - 8-row keyboard (Full-size GH-122/153)

Width is varied by getting longer or shorter front and back rails.  And then the bottom plate is sized to fit.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[/UPDATE]

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You have the concept of a basic design, except scaled to whichever size of kb that geekhackers want.

My concept is more akin to the Tipro that I am using. There is a minimum base keyboard, and if you want anything else (function row, tenkeys, numpad, etc.) these are added on. My concept has the advantage of allowing people to swap parts around (eg put numpad on the left side) but it involves having more components which might confuse people. Yours is definitely far simpler and idiot proof.

However, I would still urge doing a design where the majority of the parts are common to all keyboard layouts. That way it is easier for us to attain economies of scale in production.

Regarding your choice of standoff for the Gh36, would it be the same as standoffs used in Filco LEDs and in the G122? I'm thinking that standardization of parts would make things pretty cheap. These LED standoffs come in like, what, packs of thousands for only a few bucks?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 04 October 2014, 16:09:32
How do you intend for the pieces to combine?

I am going to use Acrylic cement for the prototypes and see how it looks.  Cheap and very strong.

Nylon, POM, metal or mixed materials would mean screws.  That means a thicker base to enable either threading into it or countersinking screw heads.  I have a TG3 and hate the damn exposed screw heads on the bottom.  A thin Acrylic base plate with some slim non-slip dots for feet will be the first pass answer.  The PCB will of course be screwed to the top via drilled and tapped holes (3mm or 6-32).

Ah, I see where you're coming from. You have the concept of a basic design, except scaled to whichever size of kb that geekhackers want.

My concept is more akin to the Tipro that I am using. There is a minimum base keyboard, and if you want anything else (function row, tenkeys, numpad, etc.) these are added on. My concept has the advantage of allowing people to swap parts around (eg put numpad on the left side) but it involves having more components which might confuse people. Yours is definitely far simpler and idiot proof.

However, I would still urge doing a design where the majority of the parts are common to all keyboard layouts. That way it is easier for us to attain economies of scale in production.

Regarding your choice of standoff for the Gh36, would it be the same as standoffs used in Filco LEDs and in the G122? I'm thinking that standardization of parts would make things pretty cheap. These LED standoffs come in like, what, packs of thousands for only a few bucks?

Let me make the first ones and see.  I was indeed thinking of those same standoffs, perhaps not in that identical size.  I may do the initial build with Acrylic rods cut to length and drilled and tapped.  That keeps the issue of joining dissimilar material at bay for now.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Mon, 06 October 2014, 10:52:35
Clearly i have missed a lot in this thread. I'm glad to see this is still ongoing. I need to catch up.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:08:16
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:56:34
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?

You mean those wierd-ass Cherry spacebars with the offset switch?  There should be room on the bottom row, so if someone can point me to the specs, I'll add the position.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 12:51:19
One thought I had - spacebars that don't have a center stem.  Any need to add a switch position for this?

You mean those wierd-ass Cherry spacebars with the offset switch?  There should be room on the bottom row, so if someone can point me to the specs, I'll add the position.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is one freaking brillant idea!

We have so many off centre stem space bars floating around unused! Now they will get used! (Not to mention, Cherry's logic was actually sound since most people do use the spacebar on the right side!)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: mrklaw on Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:06:39
If I bought the Nuclear Data keycap set, how many relegendables would I potentially need to supplement it for this keyboard?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:38:12
If I bought the Nuclear Data keycap set, how many relegendables would I potentially need to supplement it for this keyboard?

It depends on the layout you use.  If you only bought the Base Kit, and you go with the traditional 122-key layout, you'll need another 18 keycaps.  I have shown them as blanks on this layout:

[attach=2]
GH-122 in the traditional 122-key layout with Nuclear Data Green Base Kit

In another configuration, you would need 30 additional keycaps.

[attach=1]
GH-122 in another possible layout with Nuclear Data Green Base Kit

But that, of course, is why there were so many child kits.  And since all of the single-unit keycaps have the same profile, you can place them wherever you'd like.

Does that answer your question?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 17 October 2014, 11:23:47
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:10:36
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.

Ivan, do you mean to say that I can use a 6.25x with off center stem the same as a 7x?

I really wish I could use my Cherry keyboard spacebars on other keyboards. Likewise I have unused/ unusable Tai Hao 7x that I wish could be used for something.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Fri, 17 October 2014, 12:59:43
The switch position is the same, not the position of the stabilizers themselves.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Fri, 17 October 2014, 14:20:48
Cherry offset switch position for 6.25 is actually the same exact spot for a 7x from the left. So it already taken care of on the PCB.

Excellent, thank you for the clarification.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 28 October 2014, 12:58:01
Any news or updates?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 28 October 2014, 19:41:39
Good question.  I've been holding off on buying boards because I expect this to lighten my wallet substantially.  I already have everything I need save PCB, plate, and case.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 28 October 2014, 20:52:05
Good question.  I've been holding off on buying boards because I expect this to lighten my wallet substantially.  I already have everything I need save PCB, plate, and case.

Ditto, but I'm in no rush on this board.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 30 October 2014, 17:36:42
This keyboard is going to heavily tempt me to want to get a set of Dasher terminal themed keys

(http://i.imgur.com/1fcxPWd.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/MD7M25B.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 13:24:11
This keyboard is going to heavily tempt me to want to get a set of Dasher terminal themed keys

Yes, so much yes
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 08 November 2014, 09:41:58
Greetings!

While the GH36 Matrix Keypad and the Nuclear Data Green keycap group buy (and recently, the JD45 PCB layout) have taken my time away from the GH-122/154, I have not forgotten!  In fact, you should all take comfort that I am using those lesser boards to aid my learning curve as I work my way up to the battleship that is the one and only GH-122.

Rhetoric aside, I now have the aforementioned Nuclear Data Green keycaps, and it is clear they need a proper home, so I spent some time the last couple of days working on the GH-122.  Specifically, I took some detailed measurements of the Unicomp PC-122 case to work out block spacing for the GH-122 PCB.

(http://i.imgur.com/9A6bNK1.png)
Unicomp PC-122 block spacing of 0.350"

The blocks are 0.350" apart, with 0.280" separators.  These dimensions are simple to bring into the GH-122, enabling the PCB to fit into the $20 Unicomp case.  However, what isn't so simple is the fact that the Unicomp (i.e. IBM-designed) case is designed for a curved keyboard, and so the opening is taller than normal, and of course it is concave, making the actual arc even longer.

On a flat plane the main blocks are 3.997" tall (I am using 4.000" for the design) but an MX keyboard block is only 3.750" tall.  That leaves us with an extra 0.250" of visible gap above and/or below the keycaps.  I cannot make a curved PCB (well, I can, but I am not going to!) but I could distribute the extra space between the rows.  This turns a quarter-inch gap into four invisible 1/16" gaps.

So here is the question:

Should I add 0.0625" spacing between the rows?  It won't affect how the PCB looks, and it will enable it to better fill the openings on the Unicomp PC-122 case.  And any custom plates and cases can have the same spacing as the PCB, so that will be fine as well.

What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

TL;DR  Should I add an extra 1/16" between rows to make the PCB fit better in the PC-122 case?


 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 08 November 2014, 09:57:58
What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

this is my primary concern when messing with spacing. What keycaps do you plan to put on the vertical keys? They would need to have custom stem spacing, which is expensive and hard to do.

I think you should keep the 0.75" spacing and just split the difference so half the "gap" is on the bottom and the other half if at the top.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 08 November 2014, 10:23:03
My plan was to bottom align the numpad Enter and top-align the ISO Enter and numpad Plus.  And if I thought this was a good or even benign path, I'd have just done it.  Like using the 0.350" spacing between blocks.  There is no standard there, and it wouldn't affect anybody's CAD templates, so that I will just do.  But that vertical gap is really quite blatant.  Maybe I'll do a mock-up with a Phantom PCB or a laser-cut plate and take some photos.

Hmmm.

I could instead just add some space above and below the ISO Enter key.  That would eliminate most of the problem and provide some fill.  I don't think the 1/16" extra gaps would be visible except if a keycap spans the gap (like the 2x verticals.)

Thanks for your input.  Are you going to build one of these monsters when they eventually get built?  If so, what will you do for a case?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

What won't be fine is that every designer will have to remember that this PCB has that extra spacing, and that the 0.750" square grid is stretched vertically into an 0.750 x 0.8125" grid.  This will be especially important for 2x vertical keys like ISO Enter and the pair on a numpad.

this is my primary concern when messing with spacing. What keycaps do you plan to put on the vertical keys? They would need to have custom stem spacing, which is expensive and hard to do.

I think you should keep the 0.75" spacing and just split the difference so half the "gap" is on the bottom and the other half if at the top.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 08 November 2014, 11:27:16
I think we really need to consider that almost everyone using this PCB is going to go plate-mount.

ALPS requires it, and even with MX, the board is so big that flex is likely to be a serious issue.  I've used a G80-8200-- PCB mount of similar size-- and you can feel it sag when you type.  I suppose the performance of a G80-2000 or 2500 would be the best comparison though.

I'm leaning towards using that wedge case design, if it comes out, because that should go well with a plate-mount build.  Also, it requires much less hacking to accomodate a modern style editing block and function row.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: MOZ on Sat, 08 November 2014, 15:25:55
If I ever build one knew these, I would build it using the wedge case design or something similar.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Sat, 08 November 2014, 17:23:26
Interestingly enough, the base of every Model F barrel is 0.8125" x 0.750" - with adding the curvature of the Model F plates, aligns the keys perfectly for vertical spacing.

As the GH-122 PCB / plate will not be curved; would probably be easiest to keep the standard 0.750" x 0.750".
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 08 November 2014, 17:41:24
Definitely don’t add extra space between rows. Keyboards already have more space than necessary between rows.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 08 November 2014, 18:52:08
Greetings!

While the GH36 Matrix Keypad and the Nuclear Data Green keycap group buy (and recently, the JD45 PCB layout) have taken my time away from the GH-122/154, I have not forgotten!  In fact, you should all take comfort that I am using those lesser boards to aid my learning curve as I work my way up to the battleship that is the one and only GH-122.


With eyeing a pricey purchase next year (leather soled shoes), AND wanting to put together a buy for those Dasher keys, my wallet is perfectly content to wait patiently on this one :D
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 08 November 2014, 23:57:09
I still say we approximate a curved PCB by having a "strip" for every row to slot into regularly spaced vertical holders, Then only vertical keys become and issue. Easily solved (I think) with just leaving a larger hole in the plate and then PCB mounting them.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 09 November 2014, 00:51:48
If we have enough spacers (and these should be spaced close enough of course) then keyboard will be firmly supported and we can save the money on a metal plate. But designing these will probably be a headache given the complexity of this PCB already. EG to be totally rigid every few keys should have a spacer.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 09 November 2014, 09:18:01
I thought of the PCB strips concept, and I think even proposed it elsewhere as "finger" PCBs.   Strip-based column wiring, 2x vertical switches, and structural rigidity were issues I didn't want to address for a board this large.  Maybe later...

For now I am staying with a flat, semi-modular PCB.  For the Unicomp PC-122 case, I have taken further measurements and am going to have a plate and/or faux-PCB made to do some test fits.  I am going to drop the non-square spacing idea, although it is gratifying to know that I reverse-engineered IBM spacing to the thousandth!  :cool:

Anyhow, I am back on this project for mechanical design.  On the PCB front, I need to hand off the JD45 PCB to jdcarpe, and then get the GH36 Beta traces finished.

I'll post more when I have the mock-ups under way.

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Mon, 10 November 2014, 03:40:33
I thought of the PCB strips concept, and I think even proposed it elsewhere as "finger" PCBs.   Strip-based column wiring, 2x vertical switches, and structural rigidity were issues I didn't want to address for a board this large.  Maybe later...

For now I am staying with a flat, semi-modular PCB.  For the Unicomp PC-122 case, I have taken further measurements and am going to have a plate and/or faux-PCB made to do some test fits.  I am going to drop the non-square spacing idea, although it is gratifying to know that I reverse-engineered IBM spacing to the thousandth!  :cool:

Anyhow, I am back on this project for mechanical design.  On the PCB front, I need to hand off the JD45 PCB to jdcarpe, and then get the GH36 Beta traces finished.

I'll post more when I have the mock-ups under way.

Cheers!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.


Ron, will you be doing another group buy for nuclear data and relegendables in the next 6 months or whenever you finish your current 122-key? I think many people will be happy to buy the keycaps once they see they have a good keyboard to put the keycaps on.

[Actually, I missed out on both group buys, they finished so fast!]
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Mon, 10 November 2014, 09:24:32
Ron, will you be doing another group buy for nuclear data and relegendables in the next 6 months or whenever you finish your current 122-key? I think many people will be happy to buy the keycaps once they see they have a good keyboard to put the keycaps on.

[Actually, I missed out on both group buys, they finished so fast!]

Yes.  It may be an identical "Round 2" or I might do a Version 2 with some changes.  But one way or another, yes.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: neverused on Tue, 11 November 2014, 18:05:04
Is there a dwg file of plate so far? I would love to base a design on this.

Thank you
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 11 November 2014, 18:58:49
Not yet.  Speaking for myself, have been waiting on final spacing info - and even with that, there are many options available as far as the bottom row, the 6 pack / arrow block, backspace, F rows and the left side 10 and 4 packs.  I suspect there will probably be many plate designs with singular or very few copies of each - rather than one plate design with a large number of copies.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 12 November 2014, 09:25:55
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs

(http://i.imgur.com/yeJamej.png)
PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 12 November 2014, 11:01:56
Ron, as I have said in the past, I really hope you will go for modular. Like the Tipro. The bigger a plate and casing is in one piece, the harder to make and to transport and to transform/ adjust to suit different sizes as well as the more challenge to assemble and to make every part fit precisely.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Wed, 12 November 2014, 11:43:00
Ron, as I have said in the past, I really hope you will go for modular. Like the Tipro. The bigger a plate and casing is in one piece, the harder to make and to transport and to transform/ adjust to suit different sizes as well as the more challenge to assemble and to make every part fit precisely.

Yes.  Especially now that I find that Cherry used 0.375" block spacing and IBM used 0.350".  That is just enough to be hard to work around.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Thu, 13 November 2014, 16:18:33
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/yeJamej.png)

PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 13 November 2014, 17:27:18
I am making a plate to fit the PC-122 case.  Well, test fit, more like!

The critical dimension is the 0.350" block spacing, which I believe to be correct and final.  I am using .750" between the main block and the upper rows, although I think that section should be cut and separately mounted.  It probably won't need a plate except for aesthetics.

I'll post my plate design once I get the outer dimensions and mounting worked out.  Mine will have:

ANSI 122-key plus:
 - ISO Enter and \| keys
 - Offset Capslock switch
 - Winkeyless bottom row (1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5)
 - Cross-shaped arrow cluster
 - Cherry plate-mount stabs

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/yeJamej.png)

PC-122 Test Plate v141111b by samwisekoi 2014

Anyhow, once I get a quote for the plate, I'll order extras for anyone who wants one.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?

http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A

(http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BLKPC122Front.jpg)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: kalrand on Thu, 13 November 2014, 21:44:45


This is the layout that all keyboards should be.

Why can I find it nowhere?

http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A

Show Image
(http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/BLKPC122Front.jpg)



And they have that wacky european left shift key. And the bonus ???? key jammed next to it.

Heresy!

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: elecplus on Sat, 22 November 2014, 17:12:28
And what makes F122s or M122s so hard to find?  I have sold plenty of them, still have plenty of them!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 23 November 2014, 09:05:04
And what makes F122s or M122s so hard to find?  I have sold plenty of them, still have plenty of them!

With Cherry MX stems?  Or choice of switches?

The point here is not to replace the F-122 (or even the still-available PC-122) but to create an adaptable, programmable, modern expression of the 122-key keyboard.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Krogenar on Mon, 24 November 2014, 07:39:15
And what makes F122s or M122s so hard to find?  I have sold plenty of them, still have plenty of them!

With Cherry MX stems?  Or choice of switches?

The point here is not to replace the F-122 (or even the still-available PC-122) but to create an adaptable, programmable, modern expression of the 122-key keyboard.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This idea really runs against the current, when it comes to Cherry-switch keyboards (ever smaller layouts, etc.) and that makes it awesome.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: tufty on Mon, 24 November 2014, 12:19:19
Hell yeah, if you're gonna go with staggered qwerty, at least do so with the proper layout.  I love me a 122, me.

That said, the PC122 is very tempting, and, frankly, it's damn cheap.  Cheaper than a ****ty cheap-ass cherry board, even including shipping to the ass-end of the alps.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 30 November 2014, 07:17:18
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66202.msg1548805#msg1548805
Made a second Tipro casings photolog.
Hope that helps. This is a more modern design, lighter and plastic. I think the casing might wind up being more expensive due to molding needs, but the PCB and cable connectors may give you good ideas.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sat, 13 December 2014, 13:45:17
The tipro idea is cool, but not very battleship-ish is it?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 13 December 2014, 20:46:41
The tipro idea is cool, but not very battleship-ish is it?

I think the point is that it's very scalable and thus of inherent worth to this project.

Also: tipro can absolutely be a battleship. check out kbdfr's setup on DT
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1308/tiprokbd003.jpg)
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/programming-a-tipro-board-on-the-fly-like-a-cherry-g80-2100-t813.html#p18835 (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/programming-a-tipro-board-on-the-fly-like-a-cherry-g80-2100-t813.html#p18835)


If that's not a battleship, I'm not sure I know what is.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sat, 27 December 2014, 07:08:35
The tipro idea is cool, but not very battleship-ish is it?

I think the point is that it's very scalable and thus of inherent worth to this project.

Also: tipro can absolutely be a battleship. check out kbdfr's setup on DT
Show Image
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1308/tiprokbd003.jpg)

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/programming-a-tipro-board-on-the-fly-like-a-cherry-g80-2100-t813.html#p18835 (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/programming-a-tipro-board-on-the-fly-like-a-cherry-g80-2100-t813.html#p18835)


If that's not a battleship, I'm not sure I know what is.

True that!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 06 January 2015, 16:12:45
Still interested in this.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Tue, 06 January 2015, 18:30:03
Still interested in this.

+1

Who's in charge around here, anyhow?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 06 January 2015, 18:31:46
Still interested in this.

+1

Who's in charge around here, anyhow?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

I think it's you.  ;)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Tue, 06 January 2015, 18:33:00
is it time to bump this thread?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 08 January 2015, 07:29:48
No, this hasn't died at all.  It is just circling the runway above a few other projects.  (JD45 and GH36 in particular.)

I have been discussing firmware with HaTaa.  The scale of this board means a larger controller, which in turn provides more RAM, so we may be able to have cool features like recordable macros, etc.

Anyhow, this project is still active.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

p.s.  I used the GH-122 MX/Alps switch footprints on the JD45, so experience from that prototyping round will help the GH-122.  This will be especially important on the very complex bottom row, as some of the lead "holes" are more like "daisy-chains"!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 08 January 2015, 23:12:57
This keyboard is going to heavily tempt me to want to get a set of Dasher terminal themed keys

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/1fcxPWd.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/MD7M25B.jpg)


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65864.0
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: FrostyToast on Sat, 10 January 2015, 21:26:48
I'm sure this question has come up before, but can we have those 4 blocked off key open for us to use?
The PC-122 case won't support it, but I'm sure some people would be daring enough to wreck a case for the sake of 4 extra keys  :p
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 10 January 2015, 23:39:57
I'm sure this question has come up before, but can we have those 4 blocked off key open for us to use?
The PC-122 case won't support it, but I'm sure some people would be daring enough to wreck a case for the sake of 4 extra keys  :p

I would do it
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Sun, 11 January 2015, 11:21:42
I'm sure this question has come up before, but can we have those 4 blocked off key open for us to use?
The PC-122 case won't support it, but I'm sure some people would be daring enough to wreck a case for the sake of 4 extra keys  :p

Oh yes.  There aren't 4 hidden key positions you can use.  There are 30 other key positions you can use -- for a total of one-hundred and fifty-two keys!

Below and attached is a "max keys" example.  The legends used are fairly arbitrary, since I couldn't actually think of any reason to use all 152 positions at the same time.  But you could!

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a3da0ec2c105d9a93e76e42d781d2ccb

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: FrostyToast on Sun, 11 January 2015, 12:28:58
I'm sure this question has come up before, but can we have those 4 blocked off key open for us to use?
The PC-122 case won't support it, but I'm sure some people would be daring enough to wreck a case for the sake of 4 extra keys  :p

Oh yes.  There aren't 4 hidden key positions you can use.  There are 30 other key positions you can use -- for a total of one-hundred and fifty-two keys!

Below and attached is a "max keys" example.  The legends used are fairly arbitrary, since I couldn't actually think of any reason to use all 152 positions at the same time.  But you could!

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a3da0ec2c105d9a93e76e42d781d2ccb

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.

This is god damn beautiful!
This is what a true terminal keyboard should look like!  ;D
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: BillDee on Sun, 15 February 2015, 05:08:55
I'm glad I found this before you finished it.

Is there a status report for it?

This is a keyboard I was designing, the "Super Programmer's Keyboard" (truncated on the right),
but the GH-132 would be better than nothing.

(http://i.imgur.com/tIwvtFY.png)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: BillDee on Sun, 15 February 2015, 06:08:41
Would it be possible to set up the keys like this?

I would have group-colored some sections, but it wouldn't let me for some reason.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9642b52c7b5989316fbfb85d2dcc930e

Actually, I would like to put the Home and End keys on each side of the Up key,
and make the Delete key be double-height where the Home & Ins keys are.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 26 February 2015, 10:56:08
Every time I see this thread I get hyped.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Krogenar on Mon, 02 March 2015, 13:27:21

Oh yes.  There aren't 4 hidden key positions you can use.  There are 30 other key positions you can use -- for a total of one-hundred and fifty-two keys!

Below and attached is a "max keys" example.  The legends used are fairly arbitrary, since I couldn't actually think of any reason to use all 152 positions at the same time.  But you could!

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a3da0ec2c105d9a93e76e42d781d2ccb

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Now all it needs is the silhouette of an aircraft carrier for that upper right corner of open space.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Mon, 02 March 2015, 14:02:06
Not a carrier, a battleship! All guns blazing.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 02 March 2015, 14:06:01
Not a carrier, a battleship! All guns blazing.

But when you factor in the air wing, a carrier has much higher offensive capabilities than a battleship.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Mon, 02 March 2015, 14:12:39
Not a carrier, a battleship! All guns blazing.

But when you factor in the air wing, a carrier has much higher offensive capabilities than a battleship.

Yes but this is meant to be a modernized throwback. I'd say use the Space Battleship Yamato but idk how well it would go over.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: njbair on Wed, 01 April 2015, 08:30:53
So when I first started lurking GeekHack about six months ago I was typing on my only mechanical board, a Ducky Shine III. At that time I saw this thread and thought to myself, "custom keyboard PCBs? That's crazy." I also thought, "who would want a keyboard that big, anyway?" And in general was not interested in this project at all. Since then I've picked up a second full-size keyboard, two Model M's (a full-size and an SSK), placed orders for seven sets of keycaps and two Infinity kits (one Cherry and one Alps). So I guess you could say I've changed my mind about custom/BYO keyboards.

In the past few days I've stumbled upon some neat deals on older boards. I bought one of these new-in-box Unitek white Alps boards (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70391.0;topicseen) and two of these Unicomp PC-122's (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70420.0;topicseen). It got me thinking back to all that time ago when I first saw this thread, but since I was lurking at the time and otherwise generally uninterested, I had to do some digging to find it again.

All that to say, I don't know what you guys did to me over the past few months, but I am so psyched about this project right now and hopefully I'll be able to get in on this.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Wed, 01 April 2015, 10:59:32
Everytime I see a new post in this thread I get so hyped.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 07 April 2015, 19:10:14
Same here.  This and the Axios thread are two I regularly check on.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: njbair on Tue, 07 April 2015, 20:29:06
Same here.  This and the Axios thread are two I regularly check on.

Great thanks. I didn't know about the Axios. Just what I needed, yet another custom build to lust after and eventually throw money after.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 08 April 2015, 19:18:10
Same here.  This and the Axios thread are two I regularly check on.

Great thanks. I didn't know about the Axios. Just what I needed, yet another custom build to lust after and eventually throw money after.

Fortunately both projects may take a while to complete so at least the money concerns aren't so immediate though the Axios does appear to have a good amount of work already done including what appears to be a working prototype.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 07 May 2015, 11:26:09
Hi!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 07 May 2015, 12:01:35
Hi!

Hey Ron, whats up?

I see the GH36 is going well.

Is it time to fire up the Battleship?
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 07 May 2015, 12:11:36
Not yet.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
(Typed on my newly-mapped JD45.)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Thu, 07 May 2015, 12:19:29
Roger.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: njbair on Thu, 07 May 2015, 12:50:29
Hi!

Not yet.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
(Typed on my newly-mapped JD45.)

There's a word for this kind of thing: tease.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: 0100010 on Fri, 11 September 2015, 21:07:51
Keep alive bump.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: njbair on Fri, 11 September 2015, 21:28:21
Yeah really. I want this.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: neverused on Fri, 11 September 2015, 22:08:00
Sam's last post was May 29th. I would love to see the SD60 and this completed, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: BillDee on Fri, 18 December 2015, 05:04:50
ANY status at all???
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Fri, 18 December 2015, 18:48:11
ANY status at all???

Last post from the OP remains May 29, 2015.  Unfortunately, nothing to report at the moment unless samwisekoi jumps back in or another takes over this one.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 18 December 2015, 20:28:51
Get the native PS/2 NMB Hi-Tek and forget about those wimpy switches.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: engicoder on Fri, 18 December 2015, 22:19:58
Get the native PS/2 NMB Hi-Tek and forget about those wimpy switches.

If only they weren't so scarce!!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Hak Foo on Fri, 18 December 2015, 23:07:07
I've been looking at doing a custom plate and PCB with a layout from keyboard-layout-editor.com... as a rough approximation, a similar size plate seems to run about $100 to cut.  I suspect that this might be the fastest route to a 122-sized custom.

The problem is PCBs... there's a tool that's supposed to generate a PCB from the layout, but it seemed to blow up when I fed it my massive layout model.

Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 19 December 2015, 01:29:18
The Hi-Tek isn't bad but I'm wanting a ANSI layout that I can put some nice SA caps on.

Actually, a split/tented 122 would be quite awesome.  Ergo Battleship.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: VinnyCordeiro on Sat, 19 December 2015, 09:36:54
I've been looking at doing a custom plate and PCB with a layout from keyboard-layout-editor.com... as a rough approximation, a similar size plate seems to run about $100 to cut.  I suspect that this might be the fastest route to a 122-sized custom.

The problem is PCBs... there's a tool that's supposed to generate a PCB from the layout, but it seemed to blow up when I fed it my massive layout model.
I design my own PCBs on hand. I developed a technique on Eagle that makes it easy to design any keyboard you want. Of course it isn't as fast as an script, but I still prefer doing it.

And the technique is dead simple: before anything else, create a new project and start with the board, not the schematics. Activate the grid view (I prefer dots, but you can set to lines too, your preference) and set the grid granularity to 0.1875 inches. That's 0.25u of a key. Then I start drawing guidelines with lines of 0 width of the reference or document layers. Only after drawing all guidelines I go to the schematics and start designing the board.

I should make a time lapse video showing this, I think some people would be interested.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: SL89 on Sat, 19 December 2015, 09:42:56
Every time this project get's bumped I lose my ****. GH-122 WHEN?!
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: neverused on Sat, 19 December 2015, 10:15:08
I've been looking at doing a custom plate and PCB with a layout from keyboard-layout-editor.com... as a rough approximation, a similar size plate seems to run about $100 to cut.  I suspect that this might be the fastest route to a 122-sized custom.

The problem is PCBs... there's a tool that's supposed to generate a PCB from the layout, but it seemed to blow up when I fed it my massive layout model.
I design my own PCBs on hand. I developed a technique on Eagle that makes it easy to design any keyboard you want. Of course it isn't as fast as an script, but I still prefer doing it.

And the technique is dead simple: before anything else, create a new project and start with the board, not the schematics. Activate the grid view (I prefer dots, but you can set to lines too, your preference) and set the grid granularity to 0.1875 inches. That's 0.25u of a key. Then I start drawing guidelines with lines of 0 width of the reference or document layers. Only after drawing all guidelines I go to the schematics and start designing the board.

I should make a time lapse video showing this, I think some people would be interested.
That would be awesome.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: LukStarkiller on Tue, 05 January 2016, 22:16:19
my trusty 102 IBM M worked perfectly until last month, needs a membrane replacement, that's not a problem as I have a lot of them and one model F (getting one in good condition in spanish is difficult as hell this days, so I've worked hard the last years to get replacement parts).
After years using these keyboards I'm convinced they are the best to write on, but not the best for gaming and other uses, so finally last month I decided that, beside repairing my 102, I want a keyboard with cherry MX switches programmable and backlit.

There are a lot of gaming options, none with all the things I want and built to last as much as the model M and after having a model M I've wanted a more solid keyboard.
Looking for solutions I remembered I have two 122 IBM model M that I don't use because they need extensive repairs but I love (all those available keys :D ), repairing it's an option but the membrane and circuitry is old, installing a teensy can solve the programmable keys but I think they are 2KRO anyways, not counting with backlit.
So after being thinking this month, a few days ago I finally decided to try to repair one of the 122 with the parts in good condition of the other and build a frankenboard using the one with the ruined parts, making a new plate for cherry MX switches with more space and bendings between rows to make it concave upward, needless to say that although I am Spanish and here we use an ISO layout, I would opt for an ANSI layout  in US english without double vertical keys, and a wire soldered matrix with a teensy++ 2.0 and another USB cable for the extra LEDs (the wall power outlets on my desktop are too much populated), a hell of wires inside the case.

So finding this project it's the best option for me now. I will wait some more time before  doing anything more to see if this gets interesting again, so count with me.
By the way, the PCB design is awesome.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 06 January 2016, 13:11:06
Might be a while for this one.  Looks like samwisekoi hasn't been on since October.

Given I've got things like a new washer to buy ($10-20 part went out... video on Youtube of how to disassemble the washer and replace it is all of 9 minutes long... but the wife wants a "low water" washer because this one is 15 years old.  Sigh.)
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: samwisekoi on Thu, 07 April 2016, 14:53:42
Just in case anyone is only watching THIS GH-122 thread, please be advised that there are a couple of actual GH-122.2016 PCBs still available in the NEW thread:

[GB] GH-122.2016 Revival PCB - Order Placed (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80326.0)

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: elecplus on Tue, 07 February 2017, 15:40:09
Actually, 122-key boards exist in many different switches, from rubber domes to Space Invaders to Cherry and buckling springs. I do have a couple of foldable 122-key boards, but they are rubber dome and not very good for typing. I also have buckling spring and Space Invaders in stock. Guess I will have to post them. The 3270 compatible boards are the nicest, since all of the alpha keys and the numpad work right out of the box with a PC. All you need is a PS/2 to USB adapter, or an Orihalcon cable, if you really want one. The Memorex Telex boards that are 122-keys are usually rubber dome or foam and foil, but they feel much better to type on than most rubber domes.
Title: Re: GH-122 Making a Stupidly Large MX (or Alps) Keyboard
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 07 February 2017, 17:36:41
The NMB Hi-Tek "Space Invaders" 122-key units have the clicky 2-eye blacks and are very nice.

The one I had, branded IOMEGA, was plug-and-play PS/2, as I remember. If you can live with the ISO-style Enter, that would be a very good choice.