Author Topic: Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America  (Read 58626 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #250 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:10:31 »
Quote from: kishy;203222
If there's one thing I can definitely say here it's that welly isn't half as nuts as the last day or two of messages would suggest. I think the problem is that the intensity with which he is wording things and pushing points kind of obscures what it is he's actually trying to communicate, which isn't half as extreme as it would appear.


well thank you kishy. ;)

but seriously, what is "extreme" about supporting the basic concepts in the bill of rights? (freedom of speech, press, religion, etc)?

Is even that support considered "extreme" today?  For a liberal to support the bill of rights?

It isnt, of course. But thats all i'm doing. THe reason this is causing conternation is because i'm demanding we support it for everyone, not just for ourselves.

And thats the trick, isnt it?  To continue to be liberals even when confronted with evil in other nations, not just ours?

Thats where I find my liberal brothers hesitate, and thats when i'm calling them cowards.

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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #251 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:36:48 »
Quote from: wellington1869;203221
let me ask you this: What do you think of pro-democracy activists -- arabs and muslims who are pro-democracy -- in the middle east? Or pro-democracy activists in china? Are they "traitors to their nations"? Are they simply "pro-US" and therefore evil? Are they "stooges of the CIA"?  Should they be lined up and shot because there is the possibility that their interests line up with the interests of the world's democracies rather than their home regimes?


Same as what I think of people who are pro-democracy in general; good for them. Democracy is the future. When did I deny that? You just don't like that I don't think the US is the ****.

Quote from: wellington1869;203221
What I find interesting is that a lot of my brethren on the left actually wind up hesitating to support them.  Why? I"m genuinely curious, cuz i think its a mistake not to support them vociferously.  As leftists we support pro-democracy activists at home, so why not abroad? Thats what I mean by consistency.


Listen. I told you once and you don't seem to want to listen. The way you worded your phrasing made me look and feel like a complete idiot. "Hey, look, it's poor idiot leftist relativist gr1m, watch, right now, any moment, I bet he's NOT going to condemn Al Qaeda! Haha!" The conditions you attached to your statement would have made me feel completely ridiculous if I had immediately jumped up to type what you asked me to type. Understand that taking another's dignity away is not a good way to get them to agree with you.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #252 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:44:02 »
Quote from: gr1m;203226
Same as what I think of people who are pro-democracy in general; good for them. Democracy is the future. When did I deny that?

ok, ok, i'm just pushing buttons for the sake of it. i'll stop.  

of course i'm glad to hear anyone recognize democracy's virtues.

Quote

You just don't like that I don't think the US is the ****.

no man, thats really not true.  Was just trying to make a point about the nature of liberalism in general, but it got lost in the shuffle.  I'm a US citizen and i'm a critic of the US at the same time; just like i'm a liberal and can be a critic of liberalism at the same time.

Quote

Listen. I told you once and you don't seem to want to listen. The way you worded your phrasing made me look and feel like a complete idiot. "Hey, look, it's poor idiot leftist relativist gr1m, watch, right now, any moment, I bet he's NOT going to condemn Al Qaeda! Haha!" The conditions you attached to your statement would have made me feel completely ridiculous if I had immediately jumped up to type what you asked me to type. Understand that taking another's dignity away is not a good way to get them to agree with you.



seriously, i was being blunt but no offense was intended.  And like I said, i wasnt responding to you specifically so much as to a particular phenomenon in general that I see on the left today. Apologies if I mapped you in there wrongly.

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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #253 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:45:27 »
Also, why should criticism of the US be accompanied by criticism of the US's enemies? I think that's your ultimate intent (after 5 pages of insulting me): you cannot accept criticism of the US if one does not criticize terrorism in the same post. Why? The two are not the same issue.

For example, does a post that includes a statement of how much you like mechanical keyboards HAVE to include a part about how much you hate rubber domes? I'm here to talk about the US. Not about Al Qaeda. I told you that and you don't seem to want to listen. You keep stretching the issue on and on by writing essays about how liberals like me are weak. I DID NOT REFUSE TO CRITICIZE AL QAEDA BECAUSE I SUPPORT TERRORISM. I REFUSED  TO CRITICIZE AL QAEDA BECAUSE AFTER YOUR POST, DOING SO WOULD HAVE MADE ME FEEL LIKE AN IDIOT. Perhaps I misunderstood your posts. Who knows. But yes, I am not pro-terrorism. Understand this before this misunderstanding gets any larger.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #254 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:50:38 »
Quote from: gr1m;203230
I am not pro-terrorism. Understand this before this misunderstanding gets any larger.


Understood.  Never meant to imply you were; I was criticizing the way certain liberals in general "hesitate".  I'm not reading that hesitation as "support for terrorism", i'm just trying to understand where it comes from.  Did not mean to single you out; my quarrel is with a general phenomenon, not with you in particular.

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #255 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:53:11 »
Quote from: gr1m;203230
TO CRITICIZE AL QAEDA BECAUSE AFTER YOUR POST, DOING SO WOULD HAVE MADE ME FEEL LIKE AN IDIOT.


thats interesting; and i understand where you're coming from. But for the record, if it was me, I would never feel like an idiot for criticizing al queda. I would embrace that criticism wherever i found it. But I understand what you mean in the context of your feelings in this thread.
obviously i read your hesitation the wrong way, and assumed it reflected this larger hesitation that I was in the process of criticizing. Again, my apologies. While I stand by my larger argument about that, obviously its been lost in the shuffle at this point.

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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #256 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:55:03 »
Maybe it's a young-male-bruised-ego thing.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #257 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:56:01 »
Quote from: gr1m;203238
Maybe it's a young-male-bruised-ego thing.


no worries. in my case it would be a middle-aged-male bruised ego thing. ;)

I still do enjoy calling my liberal brothers cowards tho. Is that wrong? ;) I know its provocative, but i do basically believe we have some deep problems of perspective on the left today.  But anyway, maybe thats best dealt with on tv talk shows rather than online keyboard forums. ;)
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:58:17 by wellington1869 »

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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #258 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:58:34 »
Best misunderstanding ever. Yeah, no more politics from gr1m.

Offline audioave10

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #259 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 00:59:55 »
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #260 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 01:00:57 »
Quote from: gr1m;203241
Best misunderstanding ever. Yeah, no more politics from gr1m.


lol, no man, it was fun, these misunderstandings are par for the course on gh threads. We shouldnt stop these off topic threads just because of that. None of us are genuine trolls here. We can fight and make up afterwards.

just think, without off topic threads, all we'd have to [strike]talk[/strike] fight about are... keyboards.

besides these clashes are like the Hadron Collider. I always learn something new afterwards by studying the broken pieces.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 01:04:40 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #261 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 04:24:05 »
Quote from: ricercar;203219
I skipped the last 4 pages and missed nothing.

> the vast majority of pro-life people are 'Christian Al-Qaeda' types

whoo ho ha heh ha heh hah he ho ho ha he he ha ha ho.


Where I come from, yes.

And let me delineate "pro life" from people who are just uneasy with the idea of abortion for all. After all, I fall into the latter category.

Offline J888www

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« Reply #262 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 06:50:17 »
Generally, I make a rule not to discuss Politics, Religion and the Weather, but at present I have a Tuppence to spare.

      Future generations of Western society are becoming increasingly inadequate for self-support, result of short-sighted foresights of Governmental policies in all aspects. They do not realise that the next generation is practically illiterate with no aspirations, compared to those in the Middle Kingdom. They think that war is still conducted by sending soldiers to invade others territories with their Big guns and their Big knives. They do not realise that at present they are been targeted with formulae of Sun Tzu's The Art Of War, economic warfare.
 How will Western countries compete with a Nation whose children have better command of your native languages than your offsprings ? A Government who plan ahead, believing they will be as decadent as the present Western World, in the 22nd. Century, so they planned to purchase and permeate Africa. How will they compete with a Nation ie: who have organ harvesting wagons in every major/minor cities/towns, generating Big money to purchase your Big property in you Big country ? How big is your Big country now ? How great is your Great kingdom now ? etcetera etcetera etcetera.

Western World's downfall is due to too much leadership, too much impediment and too little ........everything else. In Time, all of Western World will reach their destined economic chaos, because their Bankers are still avaricious, the plebeian are still wasteful, their Governments have yet to learn.


You may think "I'll be dead by then", well that's the problem in the whole........
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 07:07:31 by J888www »
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Offline quadibloc

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #263 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 08:19:09 »
Quote from: gr1m;203230
Also, why should criticism of the US be accompanied by criticism of the US's enemies? I think that's your ultimate intent (after 5 pages of insulting me): you cannot accept criticism of the US if one does not criticize terrorism in the same post. Why? The two are not the same issue.
I will try to explain why you may encounter criticisms of your posts that sound like that.

To many Americans, and to myself, the situation in the world looks pretty obvious. Really evil people - like al-Qaeda, like the Communists, like the Nazis - are trying to enslave as much of the world as they can get their hands on.

The United States is by no means perfect. And, in the past, it was even worse than it is today. It wasn't until the 1960s that segregation was finally dealt with.

But like Canada, Britain, Sweden, or Switzerland, it was a democracy. A country where, by and large, political issues were debated openly. Where people did not live in fear of the secret police.

So while it made perfectly good sense to criticize the U.S. strongly about things like segregation... another kind of criticism seems so bizarre as to be beyond the pale.

While the suggestion that the U.S. should not be the "world's policeman" is not in itself in this category, anything that suggests that a government like the one in mainland China, for example... is anything but a cabal of thugs, or has any right to exist... makes it appear that the author has forgotten the central and most obvious fact of world politics: the night and day difference between the world's democracies (good) and the various dictatorships that the U.S. regards as enemies (evil).

One can advocate peace with the Soviet Union because of the terrible consequences of nuclear war.

But to suggest, even for a second, that the Soviet Union had a valid perspective to contribute - when it's a place with secret police and slave labor camps - right, this fellow has taken leave of his senses, and it's no use talking to him.

The trouble is, though, that while what the Soviet Union actually was had nothing to contribute, what it pretended to be was different. While the supremacy of the Aryan Race was self-evidently stupid, that governments should concern themselves primarily with the well-being of the ordinary working man was not.

And so while the United States entered World War II against the Nazis only after it was itself attacked in Pearl Harbor (an oversimplification, of course, there was Lend-Lease)... it sent troops to fight Communism in Korea and Vietnam.

Which would have been comparable to the United States Army being dispatched to Spain to help defeat Franco.

Part of this difference was simply a rational response to the refutation of isolationism - both by World War II, and by nuclear arms. But it is also well realized that the influence of big business, and the fear that the professed ideals of Communism would inspire such things as trade unionism... meant that while it was respectable to denounce the Bolshevics even in 1920, people who were alert to the menace of Hitler were considered radicals and troublemakers.

The notion that "the enemy is never on the left" is the over-reaction to that.

So, since al-Qaeda wants to create a world where non-Muslims can't effectively get justice if their daughters are violated by Muslims - this is a level of total evil far beyond any minor imperfections of the United States or any minor imperfections of Israel, also a modern democratic nation.

Recognizing this, all the democracies, while not suppressing their differences, but dealing with them frankly - should still recognize that these differences are trivial in comparison to the immense gulf that separates them from dictatorships. So the democracies should stick together against the dictatorships.

Thus, a foreign democracy might deplore how the U.S. used napalm in Vietnam, for example. That is fair enough.

But if it characterized the war as one of aggression against North Vietnam - instead of aggression by North Vietnam against South Vietnam, which was not perfect, but not the absolute totalitarian nightmare that Communist North Vietnam was - that is going beyond the pale. That is just being crazy.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #264 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 10:29:48 »
ya, quadibloc said it perfectly for me.  His point is about not losing overall perspective when we criticize, and that was my point too.
There's much i agree with in quadibloc's explanation and in his language too. If I said anything more at this point i'd just be repeating what quadibloc said.

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #265 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 10:33:39 »
Quote from: J888www;203279
Generally, I make a rule not to discuss Politics, Religion and the Weather, but at present I have a Tuppence to spare.

      Future generations of Western society are becoming increasingly inadequate for self-support, result of short-sighted foresights of Governmental policies in all aspects. They do not realise that the next generation is practically illiterate with no aspirations, compared to those in the Middle Kingdom. They think that war is still conducted by sending soldiers to invade others territories with their Big guns and their Big knives. They do not realise that at present they are been targeted with formulae of Sun Tzu's The Art Of War, economic warfare.
 How will Western countries compete with a Nation whose children have better command of your native languages than your offsprings ? A Government who plan ahead, believing they will be as decadent as the present Western World, in the 22nd. Century, so they planned to purchase and permeate Africa. How will they compete with a Nation ie: who have organ harvesting wagons in every major/minor cities/towns, generating Big money to purchase your Big property in you Big country ? How big is your Big country now ? How great is your Great kingdom now ? etcetera etcetera etcetera.

Western World's downfall is due to too much leadership, too much impediment and too little ........everything else. In Time, all of Western World will reach their destined economic chaos, because their Bankers are still avaricious, the plebeian are still wasteful, their Governments have yet to learn.


You may think "I'll be dead by then", well that's the problem in the whole........


i totally agree with the analysis here, whatever its motivations, that just like we have people who dont realize the sharpness of the danger posed by groups like al queda, we also do not yet realize the sharpness of the danger posed by china's (quite non democratic) march to dominate the global economy. The US is very much in denial about these shifts in geo politics still, (and many on the left are to blame for this Great Sleep we are in).

To bring this thread back around to the most recent point anyway: so yea, there are two dozen ways we are doomed going forward, and I still say happiness for the species peaked sometime between 1950 and 1990 and its all downhill from here, big time.

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Offline microsoft windows

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #266 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 11:04:56 »
It actually peaked before the fifties. The late fifties were when things started to go bad.
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #267 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 12:53:46 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;203335
It actually peaked before the fifties. The late fifties were when things started to go bad.


well, i say after 50's because:
-wwII and the great depression were behind us
-antibiotics finally became commonplace
-economy was set to boom
-US a superpower (we often forget US was not a superpower until after wwii, which was not that long ago)
-cold war, as bad as it was, allowed us to carve out a well protected space, and we did face a non-suicidal adversary in the russians (ie, as bad as they were, the russians werent nihilistic; they did want to live, they were a product of enlightenment values, our arguments with them were about how to achieve equality and freedom, not whether to achieve it. al queda is a qualitatively different opponent on both levels. Mutually assured destruction wont work with them, the way it worked with the soviets as a deterrent. There was a new york times op-ed piece on this very point just a few days ago I think.

in that well protected space, under the american umbrella, even with all its problems, but compared to the rest of the world, basically humanity reached as good a combination of physical health and basic freedoms that has ever been seen. It wasnt perfect; it was no utopia, my point is merely that whatever comes in the future, WILL be worse.

The possibilities for such a protected space and protracted economic advantage under a democratic system, are on all fronts either already gone or going, today, and those possibilities are crumbling for everyone, not just the US.  China will have economic dominance but it will be a long time before it has basic freedoms of expression. Its that combination of having both that made that half century what it was for america, and its basically going or gone.

Physical health? those same antibiotics, thru over-use, are less effective today. That same economic boom today ensures our dependencies on fossil fuels and landfills and global warming. etc etc. Russia's collapse unleashed a host of warlordism on the world - warlords who are now empowered with new technologies like the internet (which they use for suppression and spying on their citizens) and proliferation of nukes while the west struggles with new kinds of crises of confidence even in the most basic human rights values.

The left stands mute and the tea-partiers fill the leadership gap. And then there are the coming plagues and global warming. yea, we're screwed.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 13:00:37 by wellington1869 »

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Offline maclover

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #268 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 14:31:47 »
The economic gap between the west and the rest of world is closing. Child survival rates are going up and as a result overpopulation is becoming less of an issue. Literacy is going up.

If you think the 50's was better than today you might be a nostalgic, old, white man or a uninformed young white man.

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« Reply #269 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 15:06:06 »
Before 1960, morale was much better, especially in the United States. People brought guns to school all the time and it was OK since there weren't any losers shooting people in school. People didn't have to lock their houses at night. A child could go virtually anywhere alone and not be bothered.

Now look at today.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #270 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 15:25:41 »
I love the stories my dad tells me of when he was a kid.  You didn't have to worry about kids getting kidnapped or molested because people were just nicer.  My dad would tell me stories, but I am sure that if I told them to you the FBI would be at my dads house in a matter of hours.
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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #271 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 15:50:21 »
Quote from: maclover;203372
The economic gap between the west and the rest of world is closing. Child survival rates are going up and as a result overpopulation is becoming less of an issue. Literacy is going up.

glad you're so optimistic

if you're so optimistic you might be a:
Quote

nostalgic, old, white man or a uninformed young white man.


;)

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #272 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 16:28:37 »
Earth's Upper Atmosphere Suffers Record Collapse.

"NASA just announced that the Earth's thermosphere, an upper layer of the atmosphere, collapsed. It's the biggest contraction in 43 years and scientists have no idea what's going on."


oh yea. we're going to be just fine.

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Offline Oqsy

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #273 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:17:09 »
You do realize that the thermosphere collapses regularly, and just because we've never seen it or can't explain it doesn't mean it will kill us all, right?  The average human today is about as schizoid as extras in generic disaster / horror / space invasion movies of the mid-20th century.  Get a grip people.  NASA says themselves that it's probably nothing, they just don't understand.  

IGNORANCE = FEAR

Why?

Kneejerk reactions and herd mentality.  Go ahead and follow the other lemmings off the cliff.  I'll still be here when the thermosphere collapses NEXT time.  

You bunch of pussies.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #274 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:35:08 »
The world WILL NOT END IN 2012!!!
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Offline EverythingIBM

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #275 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:48:58 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;203405
The world WILL NOT END IN 2012!!!

I know a lot of crapples and dells will end in that year though.

I'll have to celebrate the birthdays of so many of my computers in 2012. My intellistation 6225 will be 7! My 5150 will be 30! I guess my 5150 is going to be middle-aged soon.

Quote from: Oqsy;203400
You do realize that the thermosphere collapses regularly, and just because we've never seen it or can't explain it doesn't mean it will kill us all, right?  The average human today is about as schizoid as extras in generic disaster / horror / space invasion movies of the mid-20th century.  Get a grip people.  NASA says themselves that it's probably nothing, they just don't understand.  

IGNORANCE = FEAR

Why?

Kneejerk reactions and herd mentality.  Go ahead and follow the other lemmings off the cliff.  I'll still be here when the thermosphere collapses NEXT time.  

You bunch of pussies.

I especially hate when people get scared about "robot takeovers". We don't even have AI advanced enough to decode human speech properly, let alone one of the best AI designs belonging to a computer game: molyneux's black & white.
I'm sorry to break any tin-foiled-hat idiots, but no. Artificial Intelligence will never become advanced enough to do really anything. Unless you specifically program it to do something harmful, it can never truly have a mind of its own.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:51:02 by EverythingIBM »
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #276 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:50:52 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;203414
I know a lot of crapples and dells will end in that year though.


That I am sure of too, I am estimating that my Dell Latitude D600 will die in 2012.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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« Reply #277 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:01:44 »
I have a few spare batteries for mine, but I think the mobo will go before both batteries do, it has little issues now as it is.
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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #278 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:11:28 »
I will let you know if it ever dies.  When it does, I would gladly let you have the keyboard with the pointing stick.
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

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Offline EverythingIBM

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #279 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:18:08 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;203440
I will let you know if it ever dies.  When it does, I would gladly let you have the keyboard with the pointing stick.


"with a pointed stick?"
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« Reply #280 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:18:14 »
I bet the Gateway2000 will run just fine in 2012. It'll just be 16 years old.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #281 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:21:16 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;203447
I bet the Gateway2000 will run just fine in 2012. It'll just be 16 years old.


It's only a teenager.

Anyways, I really want to play heroes of might and magic 1 now after my time being absorbed by humorous geekhack posts.

The paladins are cool. The sound effects are cool. THE GRAPHICS ARE COOL THE SOUNDTRACK IS COOL THE GAME ITSELF *IS* COOL.
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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #282 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:28:55 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;203414
Artificial Intelligence will never become advanced enough to do really anything. Unless you specifically program it to do something harmful, it can never truly have a mind of its own.


Pretty bold claim to make. Also, a stupid claim if you consider the current rate of scientific advancement. There is no limit to human potential.

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« Reply #283 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:36:23 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;203450
It's only a teenager.


I'll bring it to the DMV. But I've got some sad feeling inside somewhere that they might not appreciate it.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #284 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:53:39 »
Quote from: Oqsy;203400
You do realize that the thermosphere collapses regularly,


yea, and climate temperatures go up and down over time, and hurricane season waxes and wanes in intensity. Thats not the issue. The issue is that the intensity of these swings keeps increasing, as the article linked to above also notes, as NASA also noted. And thats not a good thing, and is what they are tracking, and cannot explain, and cannot be good for the planet - or for us puny humans living on it.

Quote

IGNORANCE = FEAR


ignorance = blissful happiness

Quote

Why?

Kneejerk reactions and herd mentality.  Go ahead and follow the other lemmings off the cliff.  I'll still be here when the thermosphere collapses NEXT time.  


kneejerk denial and ostrich mentality.  go ahead and sit on your ass while the world burns down around you.

You bunch of panglossians.
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 21:00:14 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #285 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:58:54 »
Quote from: gr1m;203456
There is no limit to human potential.


i like that, i agree with it.  humans tho need political leadership to enable (rather than suppress) that potential, since we live in organized society and need social economic and political organization to unleash all of that potential. Thats usually where the stumbling block is, I think. Where the daily political fight is.  To get the politicians to enable that potential.

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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #286 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 21:05:11 »
Quote from: gr1m;203456
Pretty bold claim to make. Also, a stupid claim if you consider the current rate of scientific advancement. There is no limit to human potential.


A stupid claim? People don't know heads or tails about what "Advancement" is. In the 1960s, there was huge uproar about having robots that would cut your lawn, do dishes etc. Obviously that never came to pass. The most we have are robot vacuums, and those things only operate on the basis of pylons for direction. They can't think...

And as I stated before, the ancients knew a lot. Greece had more intellectual thinkers and scientists than the idiots in this generation.

I'm sorry, a computer will never have the equivalent of human thinking (nor will animals in general on that note). A computer cannot "think," it can only "execute". They will always be limited to being pre-programmed, and that's the problem.

There is a limit to human potential. It's called arrogance and death.
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Offline Oqsy

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« Reply #287 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 21:36:07 »
Because I don't assume the "collapse of the thermosphere" is the end of human kind, I'm a Panglossian?  Did I ever say that there weren't problems?  Did I deny that the baby boomer generation is a let down and have led us down a dangerous path?  

However, taking one example and extrapolating it to all-encompassing doom is a bit... drama queen.  Besides, we don't even have the slightest clue if humans have ANYTHING to do with the "thermosphere collapse".

 There are those who stand to profit from your fear.  Always keep that in mind when you hear that the end is near.  

Generation after generation, century after century there have been people who "know" that the end is near, and they name a date, event, or vague series of events after which there will be a period that might be the beginning of the end period...  the first two have never produced results, and the third is not even concrete enough to ever be useful.  

It's like giving someone directions and telling them to turn left 10 miles before the red barn.  Not very helpful after the fact, and useless information beforehand.
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Offline gr1m

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #288 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 21:48:47 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;203488
A stupid claim? People don't know heads or tails about what "Advancement" is. In the 1960s, there was huge uproar about having robots that would cut your lawn, do dishes etc. Obviously that never came to pass. The most we have are robot vacuums, and those things only operate on the basis of pylons for direction. They can't think...

And as I stated before, the ancients knew a lot. Greece had more intellectual thinkers and scientists than the idiots in this generation.

I'm sorry, a computer will never have the equivalent of human thinking (nor will animals in general on that note). A computer cannot "think," it can only "execute". They will always be limited to being pre-programmed, and that's the problem.

There is a limit to human potential. It's called arrogance and death.


Here's a summary of your post:

1) Ancients had knowledge
2) There is no AI right now
3) Humans die

None of which refute my claim. If you believe that death limits potential, sorry but you're hopeless. The guy that discovered fire: he died. However, people still used fire after his death; his legacy lived on. Do I have to spell it out for you? Humans can transfer knowledge onto generations.

Remember, after the ancient empires, there was the Dark Ages. Before the ancient empires, there was probably something just as ****ty. These things oscillate.

Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #289 on: Fri, 16 July 2010, 23:27:21 »
Quote from: Oqsy;203493
when you hear that the end is near.  


i'm not saying the end is near; i'm saying the last 50 years, compared to whats coming[/u], were pretty great.  I'm saying whats coming is a variety of disasters which will be ecological, economic, physiological, and quite possibly nuclear (without the advantage of utilizing the same mode of deterrence which worked pretty well in the cold war).

and yea, that looks bleak.  If you dont think it looks bleak, i really think  you're just not paying attention to how the world has changed since 1989.

But I'm also not saying we're doomed for sure. I share gr1m's optimism in the human capacity to diagnose and solve problems together.

In the face of some euro-canadian cynicism, however, I was also merely exhorting -- the left, especially -- to wake the hell up from what i see as a deep slumber in the face of incredible challenges (not least of all to our basic leftist values), and saying 50 years ago liberals got off their ass and did something, in comparison to the slovenly, lazy, and morally relativistic, full of confidence-crises, devoid of perspective, leftists that we have in west today. Leftists full of denial about the depth and breadth of those challenges.  Who want to just sit back and throw darts at their home countries rather than acknowledge the serious state of affairs for what it is. (He said provocatively).
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 July 2010, 23:52:31 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #290 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 04:55:18 »
Quote from: wellington1869;203513
i really think  you're just not paying attention to how the world has changed since 1989.


I was born then. That was a pretty big change for the world.

Offline J888www

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #291 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 06:42:26 »
Quote from: maclover;203372
The economic gap between the west and the rest of world is closing.

I would say that it has been over-taken by the Middle Kingdom, but the Western World deny/hide the fact due to pride. Question why the US is indebted to China for $800-$900 Billion and increasing, why not vice-versa ?

I totally agree with the OP. If those girls offering free lemonade were of Oriental mentality, free would be unthinkable. Knowing their sweet innocence is irresistible,  they would be instructed to charge double the value of the market price. The reason why World dominance lies in the Far East.
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« Reply #292 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 06:58:09 »
Chinese dominance of the manufacturing world is largely based on certain unsustainable variables - such as the low pay and poor working condition of their workers, and the deliberate undervaluation of the yuan. Once these go, it will be hard to say whether they will really have any inherent edge over other countries.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #293 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:21:47 »
Quote from: J888www;203555
I would say that it has been over-taken by the Middle Kingdom, but the Western World deny/hide the fact due to pride.
...
If those girls offering free lemonade were of Oriental mentality, free would be unthinkable. Knowing their sweet innocence is irresistible,  they would be instructed to charge double the value of the market price.


wow, how far chinese communism has come :)  One thing thats come out of it, that the chinese would never admit out of pride -- they've embraced the american system (capitalism) and abandoned the communist economy (tho they've still not embraced democracy - but they will have to at some point).

yea, they'll dominate, but would help the world a lot if they dominate as a democracy rather than with the warlord-ism they have now.
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:25:11 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #294 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:24:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;203559
Chinese dominance of the manufacturing world is largely based on certain unsustainable variables - such as the low pay and poor working condition of their workers, and the deliberate undervaluation of the yuan. Once these go, it will be hard to say whether they will really have any inherent edge over other countries.


Its already going...
Bangladesh, With Low Pay, Moves In on China -- new york times today

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #295 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:28:57 »
Quote from: ch_123;203550
I was born then. That was a pretty big change for the world.


we're still reeling from the shock ;)

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Offline wellington1869

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #296 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:48:25 »
in a sense, today china is a more brutal version of america.  they took the brutal capitalism, and they've already exercised imperialism and expansion (and internal fascism) in the name of it, and they left behind the counterweight of liberalism and democracy that america always had (and still has) to provide some check on that brutality and some accountability to the govt.

so today its a far worse version of america.  I wonder if our leftists will be as zealous in criticizing china on some of the same terms that they've criticized america.  (Chinese leftists are that zealous, and are so in the face of daily and direct threats to their lives and livelihoods from the chinese govt).  Chinese leftists put western leftists to shame.
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:52:43 by wellington1869 »

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Offline microsoft windows

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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #297 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:50:55 »
What about Russian leftists?
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Offline Oqsy

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« Reply #298 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:55:41 »
I keep forgetting the younger demographic of this forum.  

welly: I salute you for your courage in calling out people who claim to be on your side.  I was a leftist liberal for a long time, so I feel your pain.  I even voted green party in 2000.  A very close friend (30 years old, and a die hard liberal for as long as I've known him) just sent Howard Dean a very funny letter on why he'll never vote democrat again.  The points weren't so funny as they were sad, but the language and examples he used made me chuckle more than once.  It really summed up the problems with the democrats and modern leftists.  I'll see if I can get him to email it to me again so I can post some excerpts.  I think you'll find most of the gripes familiar.

Similarly, since starting to see the value of conservative/libertarian/constitutional viewpoint I still find that I'm distancing myself from a lot of "republicans" due to pandering to the fringe and/or groups that have no real place trying to make policy(pastors?).  The bottom line is that they're all out of touch, and term limits on all elected positions in the federal government would help remedy the situation.  

I would LOVE to see more independents in office, and the ones that are there becoming more vocal and making good decisions, not just party pleasing decisions. Ten to twelve quality independent senators who stuck to their guns and led some serious debate about where we are and where we're going would likely be enough to start the ball rolling in the right direction...  that's assuming that Americans were paying attention and wise enough to heed the opportunity to reel the two major parties back in from la-la land.

We need an independent president worse than we ever have.  Not someone who wants to "work with democrats" or "work with republicans" from across the aisle.  Someone who doesn't give a f_ck about the parties and demands some real work on a personal level from each congressman and senator on addressing the issues that will dominate our policies for the next 100 years.  

The world IS changing fast, and it's time we woke up from our slumber.
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Children giving out free lemonade is destroying America
« Reply #299 on: Sat, 17 July 2010, 12:58:07 »
Almost all the democrats in office are idiots.
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