Author Topic: Truly Ergonomic Unboxing  (Read 95994 times)

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Offline TheProfosist

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« Reply #100 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 08:10:05 »
I personally dont like the layout all that much the letters look good but their very hard to get wrong, everything else though just seems out of place. I wonder if it has a programmable controller so that i could come up with a layout and have them program it and put it on a keyboard.

Offline sordna

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« Reply #101 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 10:46:41 »
Quote from: boli;475078
That's what I'd recommend if you can spare the extra coin, though trying out different keyboards can't hurt. If you do order a Kinesis be prepared to order a second one soon - one for work, one for home. ;) Also you might want to consider ordering one with Cherry Red switches if you like them. It turns out I prefer those over the normal Cherry Browns, but that's subjective of course. You'll find all about this "Advantage LF" model somewhere in this forum (try sordna's signature).

Not sure if the TE can even be ordered at this time, and if it can at what price. If it's $250 like they said this summer it's a bit too close to the price of a Kinesis IMHO, especially given that firmware remapping isn't available yet.


Here's my sig for info on the LF. I think I put better info here though.
I agree with you boli, to me the TE should fill the gap between traditional staggered keyboards and the Kinesis (which is intimidating to some folks due to the keywells). As such, the TE should be priced $150-$180. However the bizzare shift/control location will probably screw up the appeal of the TE to most users, it's really unfortunate. Even people that do change the location of the Control key, they bring it to the left of the A key.... but TE putting the shifts there by default is shooting themselves in the foot IMO. If they think it's more ergonomic that way, they should put a dip switch for that setting, but not do it by default.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #102 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 11:18:31 »
Yep the shift/control placement is very strange.  If they do bump the price up to $250 I wouldn't be buying another (I probably wouldn't be buying another anyway) .. but $250 -- even $200 is too much for the board.  As sordna says $150-180 is a good price point.  I'm still curious to see how it all plays out now that they are in people's hands and how they are going to be supported.  There are firmware bugs without a doubt that will need to be addressed, as well as promised software that needs to be delivered.  Without updated firmware and software in place this is still not a complete offering IMHO.  I mean, we just got the "quickstart guide" ... AFTER we received the keyboards and had already hooked them up.  With all the waiting that happened would it have really been that hard to get the guide finished and printed and included a copy in the box with the board?  For me it's not a huge deal (the same as for most geekhackers), but for other people not as comfortable with that sort of stuff it would be quite intimidating I think.

We'll see where the chips fall if/when this round of stuff is finished.  I personally think he'd be crazy to not do at least another run of them with all the trouble he's obviously gone through to this point.  Once things are smoothed out he could probably sell them for years to come (provided they don't all start self-destructing or blowing up or something).
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #103 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 01:18:06 »
i don't see why this board wouldn't be a 100-110 contender, it's a TKL so it's even less cherry keys to worry about cost. The thing that the kinesis made me realize, was just how underused my thumbs were, i mean i always meant to mod a 4 way hatch in my mods, but using the thumb cluster in the kinesis made me really appreciate that, i took that portion of the kinesis to my mod. the middle buttons are worthless imo, i had them in my first mod and they just looked pretty, basically the TE just wants to make use of "slanted" real estate, much like how they mangled the Q/1 and P/0 numbering... wth.

any of you TE users, hitting the 4 cluster arrow/ pg/pgdn keys? i thought they'd get in the way.

Offline Architect

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« Reply #104 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 07:42:01 »
Re: TE vis-a-vis Kinesis, this is all value judgement but I think it will sell for more than $200, more like $300. All of these keyboards are speciality items, usually for people with health issues and the computer. Maltron goes in the 600's, I wouldn't use anything but the top Kinesis (the metallic paint in the Advantage Plus doesn't pick up the dirty smudges of the cheaper versions after use), and that is $350. I love the Kinesis despite my frustrations with it and have used them for over 15 years, my only real problem at this point is the lack of symmetric control keys. I flipped when I saw the TE as with the 109 I can get Commands, Control and Option on both the right and left hands, necessary if you use all three of those so heavily on OS X as I do. But the point is that if somebody is willing to pay $200 for an ergo keyboard would likely also be willing to pay $300 in my estimation.

Its surprising how long it's taking to get used to the TE. The biggest for me is the placement of the shift versus the command. I never had a keyboard with the shift key next to the A row instead of the Z row. It makes more logical sense where it is but my fingers are having trouble finding it! I haven't really gotten to the arrow keys, I was excited by this new design because I use them constantly to navigate around text, but I'm still adapting and haven't really gotten there yet. Also the placement of the ' key is causing me a bit of trouble.

Anyhow obviously I'm biased, I have two and even ordered a third of the extras they had in this initial shipment as a spare. They mentioned that the cost was still at $200 (well I got the earlier ones at significant discounts) which seems to indicate they're planning on raising the price.

Quote
any of you TE users, hitting the 4 cluster arrow/ pg/pgdn keys? i thought they'd get in the way.

No if anything its more out of the way then I expected or quite wanted

EDIT: I should add, on other advantage of the TE is that it's small. The Kinesis is a great keyboard but it is BIG, it takes a lot of room on my desk, it's high and interferes with my voice recognition boom, and additionally creates a somewhat large height difference between it and the mouse/trackpad.

They're all good, TE will do fine too ..
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 08:14:24 by Architect »
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline BartVB

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« Reply #105 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 08:26:03 »
One thing high on my wishlist when I first saw this board was building custom firmware which allows you to switch to a second layer for things like this:

http://www.guru-board.com/english/layout_en

Although the most useful part of that are the cursor keys which are already pretty close by in the TE design it's not possible to use the cursor keys without moving your fingers of the homerow.
So if you move the cursor keys to a 2nd layer then those cursor keys become available for other nice functions. Maybe some mousekeys? :)

I tried the new location of the shift keys, it does make a bit of sense but IMO it makes switching between keyboards (home/work/gf/etc) harder for a fairly modest improvement. Same with moving the enter key.

Current wishlist for remapping/alternative firmware:
- Switch control and shift
- Current control key = Command
- Use lower left/right blank button for Control
- Alt = Option
- Move Enter back to where it belongs
- Use key between spacebars as backspace
- Use left space for 2nd layer

I call this 'the pragmatic layout' :+

2nd layer could also be used to activate the numpad. Disadvantage of that is that you would need to move the 2nd layer cursor keys to the left hand.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 08:33:23 by BartVB »

Offline Architect

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« Reply #106 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 09:47:07 »
I'm actually glad I was forced to get used to the keyboard as it is before the remapping software is ready. If it wasn't I would have remapped immediately. Since using and getting used to this layout I'm thinking it's pretty good, and it does seem like he's put a fair bit of thought into it.

I think now I'll just do the following (blank 109)

  • restore the Del key to International 1 (center above tab)
  • Move Left Control from top layer to far right bottom
  • Move Right Option from top layer to far left bottom
  • I have the two keys in the upper left hand corner to figure out what to do with, extra parenthesis since I use them so much?
  • Something with the left spacebar as I really don't use it

The control key blocks then are
Code: [Select]
Left Side                                Right Side
Shift                                      Shift
Command                                Command
Ctrl | Option                            Option|Command
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #107 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 10:58:29 »
There is NO market for the TE above $200. Why? Because it's a one-and-a-half-trick pony, and that simply doesn't command such a high price tag. No one has paid $250 for it yet, and the threat of a higher price is merely to spurn a purchase today at the 'lower' cost. It's programmability, and it's layout (which has some neat pluses, and some critical minuses) are the only reasons anyone should or would consider the TE. A higher price tag would only be considered due to it's appearance of the layout. And as of this writing, the programmability is a disaster. Fortunately the TE 'looks' different, which in the keyboard market, can be  important from a marketing standpoint.

The Maltron is not even a comparison (to anything other than a Kinesis), and the Kinesis is a comparison only due to the programmability. there are other keyboards that offer modified layouts to compare to all day long, all under the $250 price point. Make no mistake, keyboard pricing is going down, not up.

TE:
+ mechanical switches
+ matrix layout
+ - programming (FIX THIS YOU IDIOT!!!)
+ - layout (+ split, movement clusters), (- some very unfortunate key placement compromises)

The above does not make a $250+ keyboard in any country on this planet. If it did, there would be a lot more keyboards out there, which in turn, would lower the price. Kinesis is already pushing the envelope. If they dropped their price $50 they would sell so many more keyboards, but it's not about the volume as much as it is margin. And there is no 'reason' for a keyboard to be much more expensive. Switches are switches, keycaps are keycaps, plastic is plastic, the rest are features that don't cost more (layout, shape, functionality). The ability to add full programability is no more than a $50 add.

From everything that has been mentioned on GH, which is the ONLY place on the web for TE info, (where are all those reviews now?) the TE may have a neat little niche it may be able to fill if the software is addressed and if our buddy doesn't get arrested for roughing up prostitutes again.

I'm watching this TE unfold carefully with a few others in Taiwan as a template for a 'build your own keyboard' project, which will allow a choice of several designs, mechanical, programming, etc. available for $150-180. I wish there was a market for that at $250 :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline xsar

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« Reply #108 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 12:27:50 »
Quote from: input nirvana;475905
there are other keyboards that offer modified layouts to compare to all day long, all under the $250 price point.

I don't agree with this statement, there are not many keyboards with split sections and matrix layout that does not have the kinesis-style concave bowls or are grossly overpriced, I can only think of the smartboard (which is not mechanical, as far as i can tell). For me, matrix-layout is a must. I don't see how anybody could come up with the staggered, non-symmetric layout, assuming no prior knowledge of existing layouts.

Programming is not so much an issue, since on all the main operating systems there are enough free options for remapping. It would come in handy, for special use such as remote connections, where the software remapping does not work, but this is not a deal breaker for most people.

The reason this keyboard is more expensive is the number of keyboards sold.
The initial overhead of getting a production running is quite big, I do think the initial price in the 200$ range is justified.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #109 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 13:22:08 »
We don't know if the TE will ever be more expensive because so far most people have paid $100-$150 for it (some at $200? Chime in if you paid that much). Unlikely too many people will pay that amount, as it is not many people pay $250 for a keyboard. It's taking a niche market and reducing it even further. Again, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze at this point. No there aren't many options, which is the only reason the TE is out there at all. But there are options, and if the price escalates, those other options become more palatable. There are similar units being prototyped as we speak, and they are easily calculating out at sub-$175 prices. TE choke points are being noted and avoided like the plague. TE will have head-to-head competition in 2012, and GH will be a marketing source. TE has a spot to fill, it remains to be seen if he survives to fill that spot, or if it's a one-shot wonder. The potential may be there, I'm interested, but there are also very many caveats.

You are right the programming is not gigantic, but it's still damn nice to have that functionality.

The fact the keyboard is trying to be pricier because not many are made is irrelevant. Supply-Demand applies, people dictate the market price.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline hoggy

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« Reply #110 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 13:23:13 »
I can't see justification for $300.  The kinesis is hand soldered on curved(!) PCBs and the maltron is hand wired - the costs of making those keyboards is really quite high.The TE could easily be assembled by robots and flow soldered (but to be fair, it's limited production runs might be counter to the idea though).  

We could argue that if ppl will pay $300 (after all the website does stress just how wonderful and unique the board is), then maybe they should... but then I hate marketing.  

I think TE would have to iron out the bugs and publish its research proving just how much better the 'boards are before it could cope in that price bracket.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #111 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 14:32:07 »
Competition will prevent the price from being $300. Plus it's just not a $300 keyboard no matter how you dress up that pig. $200 tops. TE may have its place, but it's not in the $300 market no matter how many times 2-3 people say it.

My guess is that TE is an example of what can/cannot be done currently in the niche keyboard market. The TE is one of the first of many we'll see in the very near future. New keyboards will not be the commodity they once were/are.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline boli

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« Reply #112 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 14:37:07 »
Quote from: input nirvana;475905
The Maltron is not even a comparison (to anything other than a Kinesis), and the Kinesis is a comparison only due to the programmability. there are other keyboards that offer modified layouts to compare to all day long, all under the $250 price point.

I can think of just one cheaper alternative: the TypeMatrix. What others are there? To be fair I only consider matrix keyboards. The matrix or grid layout is the main reason why I compare it to the Kinesis. Remapping in firmware would be another if it worked...

Quote from: input nirvana;476025
We don't know if the TE will ever be more expensive because so far most people have paid $100-$150 for it (some at $200? Chime in if you paid that much).

I paid $199 + $39 shipping to Switzerland when ordered end of February 2011, which I assume is way later than others who paid less.

As for pricing, in my book the TE competes with the TypeMatrix and the Kinesis, which are $110 and $300 respectively, so the TE shouldn't be more than $200 because of the Kinesis, but it can afford to be as much as $200 because of the TypeMatrix. In my opinion (having tried all three keyboards) this tiered pricing nicely reflects the overall worth of them - you get what you pay for.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 14:39:49 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #113 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 15:26:06 »
that's true if a junky typematrix is 110, then a TE "should be" 150, any more and it's just greed pricing. btw kinesis should only be 200 anyway, 270 for a new kinesis is a ripoff.

Offline addwyn

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« Reply #114 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 15:50:41 »
I received my Truly Ergonomic Keyboard today (in France).
I made a short unboxing video. You can search for it on Youtube (URL links are forbidden for me here…)

Offline boli

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« Reply #115 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 16:38:58 »
Addwyn's TE unboxing video

Addwyn, you'll be able to post links soon, I guess it's a counter spam measure. :)

Lanx, I think the Kinesis is $299 not 270?

As for the TrulyErgonomic vs TypeMatrix I like the TE better because:
+ finger length adjusted grid layout
+ Cherry switches (whichever color you prefer; to be fair I also like easy going short travel keys)
+ outward angle for better posture
+ remappable in firmware (at some point in the future) :-/
+ more keys (109 model)

And as for Kinesis vs TrulyErgonomic I like the Kinesis better because:
+ thumb keys!!! (Big fan, maybe also because I used thumbs for Command since forever)
+ even better finger length adjusted layout due to bowls
+ a little more separation for left and right hand
+ remappable in firmware already available and requires no software
+ embedded num pad works in OS X
- sucky rubber F# keys
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:17:27 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Architect

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« Reply #116 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 16:47:00 »
There's a split keyboard I saw the other day, too lazy to dig it up, but this jonnie was just a regular keyboard with two splits so it forms a cube. How much? Selling at $300.

Look at keyboard design. The same bad design year after year after year. The Microsoft Ergo cracks me up, all these people love it but all they did was put a swoop in the design. Still has the same number pad that makes no sense and the thing is enormous, if you want a number pad there are plenty of separated ones.

Then Kinesis comes along and dares to put keys in different-better places. Much better. To somebody who is on the computer 18 hours a day it saved my life. But they haven't changed the design in, I don't know, 15 years at least. There are a lot of improvements we could see.

TE impresses me because he's willing to take it a step further. Arrow key groups - brilliant. Center row, different options, small, solid as a brick, programmable, extra function keys and ALL the keys are cherries ... $300 slam dunk.

I'll say it again, I'm glad I just bought the last of the initial run for $200, gladder I got the other two at below cost.

Yeah, the owner (probably engineer with no marketing background) seriously screwed up the introduction. Why didn't he take it to KickStarter? But he seriously, seriously screwed up. Doesn't take away from the results though.

Quote
And as for Kinesis vs TrulyErgonomic I think the Kinesis is better because:
+ thumb keys!!!
+ even better finger length adjusted layout due to bowls
+ more separation for left and right hand
+ remappable in firmware already available and requires no software
+ embedded num pad works in OS X
- sucky rubber F# keys

TE has five thumb keys (you could argue some of those wouldn't be thumb-able, but I do it) and the Kinesis as 12. Not exactly a negative as they do have many of them.

On separation that's preference, I prefer the TE separation, the Kinesis separation is too much and makes for a huge keyboard taking valuable desk space.

I've owned over 10 Kinesis keyboards over the years between home and work and seen many more at work, and I've also seen a number of problems with the firmware. I swapped out PROM's on more than one occasion, and anyhow the TE has a SDK so you can do whatever the heck you want (from the chip mfg) so if anything that's a plus for the TE. Sure it requires software, I don't see that as a negative.

On the embedded num pad I have little doubt that'll get fixed.

I like both the Kinesis and TE but I don't see a big case for or against either here.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 16:53:39 by Architect »
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline boli

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« Reply #117 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 16:58:21 »
As for thumb-able keys I'd say the TE has one that is easily reachable without moving your hand. To be fair by this measure not all thumb keys on the Kinesis would count either, maybe 8 would (for me that is, it's obviously subjective/dependent on one's hands).

I'm glad you like the TE so much, each to their own. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline sordna

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« Reply #118 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 17:06:43 »
Quote from: Architect;476181
TE impresses me because he's willing to take it a step further. Arrow key groups - brilliant. Center row, different options, small, solid as a brick, programmable, extra function keys and ALL the keys are cherries ... $300 slam dunk.

Um, the TE is not really a step further. It fills the gap between regular keyboards and the Kinesis. That's a very big gap to fill, there lies their opportunity.
Arrow key groups: to me Kinesis arrows better, I don't have to leave the home row.
Less separation / Center row: these go together, and are a matter of preference. I see merits in both desigs.
All keys are cherries: Yes that's an advantage for sure, but that shouldn't raise the price by much.

Dude, you must be the only person who values the TE at $300. Its niche, value, innovation, shape, technology, however you skin the cat, put it below the Kinesis, which sits higher in features (on-board dual-layer programmability, on-board layout switching) / design (concave key placement) and price. I'm sure the TE is cheaper to produce too, and that's a big advantage they have.

If they want to place their product higher than Kinesis/Maltron/Datahand (which their website arbitrarily suggests) they would need to deliver way way more features, including truly split (separate halves) design. So their niche should be a simple / honest ergo keyboard that's not intimidating like the other beasts are.

If the TE well sells at more than $200, they will blow their lower-cost advantage and shoot themselves in the foot IMO.
The only way I see $300 making sense, is they want to sell the limited amount of keyboards they made at max profit, and shut down the business, because they are just NOT going to see a continuous flow of sales if they go over $200.

I maintain that $150 - $180 retail ($200 MSRP) will make the TE a good value and a good selling product.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 17:17:51 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Architect

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« Reply #119 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:14:21 »
Quote from: sordna;476203
Um, the TE is not really a step further. It fills the gap between regular keyboards and the Kinesis. That's a very big gap to fill, there lies their opportunity.
Arrow key groups: to me Kinesis arrows better, I don't have to leave the home row.

That's fine we disagree, as I said this discussion is mostly subjective. I don't use any of the Kinesis programming or macros, other people do, and so on. But I have to ask - do you have a TE? I really don't know but I think to be fair you have to have both and use them side by side for a fair comparison.

In adjusting to using the arrow keys now and I don't find it takes much of a move, looking at how my hand does it it is within an inch or to to arrow around quickly. Yes I like the Kinesis solution too, and might take that one if I had only choice, but at least for me, in use the keys work really well.


Quote
Dude, you must be the only person who values the TE at $300. Its niche, value, innovation, shape, technology, however you skin the cat, put it below the Kinesis, which sits higher in features (on-board dual-layer programmability, on-board layout switching) / design (concave key placement) and price. I'm sure the TE is cheaper to produce too, and that's a big advantage they have.

That's your value judgement, that's fine as I said and I can see your point which is valid, depending on what is important to the user.  

Quote
they are just NOT going to see a continuous flow of sales if they go over $200.

Well that's their business and not ours I guess.
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 20:32:03 by Architect »
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Architect

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« Reply #120 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:18:12 »
Quote from: boli;476189
As for thumb-able keys I'd say the TE has one that is easily reachable without moving your hand. To be fair by this measure not all thumb keys on the Kinesis would count either, maybe 8 would (for me that is, it's obviously subjective/dependent on one's hands).

I actually use all the Kinesis thumb keys, and I wish they had just two more, for dual side tri-control keys (Command/Control/Option). No way to mod unfortunately.

Quote
I'm glad you like the TE so much, each to their own. :)

agreed. The speciality keyboard market is so small I think all the players will do fine. The TE has got some well deserved vitriol, but personally I think we should try to be supportive to any manufacturer in this area, even if it's not for us.
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline boli

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« Reply #121 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:29:33 »
Quote from: Architect;476256
I actually use all the Kinesis thumb keys, and I wish they had just two more, for dual side tri-control keys (Command/Control/Option). No way to mod unfortunately.

I mapped all thumb keys as well, but hardly ever use Delete, nor Page Up/Down.

Quote
The speciality keyboard market is so small I think all the players will do fine. The TE has got some well deserved vitriol, but personally I think we should try to be supportive to any manufacturer in this area, even if it's not for us.

Agreed. I'm looking forward to seeing how the TE story unfolds... :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #122 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:50:51 »
Quote from: Architect;476181
TE impresses me because he's willing to take it a step further.

if that were true, TE would have stolen the slant/incline/curve of the MS ergo 4k like i did, cuz they feel really nice, otherwise TE is not innovation just... a lesser kinesis.

on the price of the kinesis the website does sell it for 300, but i always see it on ebay for 269 new, either way it's still like 100$ over what it should be priced at, such cheap plastic.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #123 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 19:06:51 »
I have to speak up in favour of the TE layout. Some of you are missing the point with a few of your criticisms. The purpose of the TE layout is to be compact, logical, consistent and symmetrical, not to repeat earlier mistakes. It has achieved this remarkably well.

I was previously quite angry that several months after placing my order they dropped many of the layout options - including the one I ordered - in favour of a low number of 'homogenised' layouts. I was fully expecting to get something that was a huge compromise. But now that mine has arrived, I'm happy with it. I can't even remember what my preferred layout had that this one doesn't. (Well it has been a long time...) Probably just the £ legend, but since I use Colemak, that's a minor thing to me.

Yes, I am making mistakes because it is different. More than once I've hit Ctrl-W when I wanted Shift-W. Causing a window to close, losing what I had typed. That sucks. Muscle memory is hard to overcome. Doesn't change the fact that having Shift keys right next to the pinkies is a beautifully elegant change. It is better. It is more correct.* Having the modifier keys in the order Shift-Ctrl-Alt was also the only logical choice, because that's the order on standard keyboards. In hindsight, it might be better to order them Shift-Alt-Ctrl to reduce the likelihood of serious mistakes. That's debatable, but the current layout does make sense.

I do, however, think the ability to reprogram the layout (easily!) is essential. Something this radical just won't work for some people. The great physical layout is worthless if a user can't adapt to it ... or adapt it to them.

(*) Remember, you are supposed to hit Shift with one hand, and the character with the other. Vulcan hand contortions are not ergonomic.

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #124 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:54:24 »
I have to agree with Rajagra on this one as well.  The TE and the Kinesis are drastically different boards with very different approaches.  They are both cherry switches and both a split matrix approach, but that's about where it ends.  For my needs I much prefer the TE for one primary reason ... I know, blasphemy ... but I just really couldn't adapt to curved keywells.  The TE doesn't have this going on which makes it much more appealing for me.

I'm settling in pretty well on the board considering the small amount of time I've spent typing on it so far.  I've remapped some things for my needs and it's working very well so far.  Time will tell but I can already say with certainty that I like this board better than the Kinesis, even as it stands right now without proper software, etc. and if/when that arrives it will be icing on the cake for me.

As far as comparisons I think that having used this board is a must, the pictures don't really do it justice and all the arm-chair quarterbacking and reading in the world is not going to tell you how it feels to work with until you do it.  The build quality is fantastic ... it is a tank.  The keycaps feel and look fine and I really appreciate the small size of it -- especially the width.  It's narrower than my Leopold tenkeyless boards but still presents me with all the keys I rely on and more, unlike most other boards smaller than a tenkeyless.  That gets my trackpad not only closer to the board but closer to me physically, which was also a problem for me with the Kinesis as for as ergonomics went.

Does the TE have the same kind of options and power that the Kinesis does?  No, not at all.  Does it have some design flaws?  Yep for sure, but they all do, including the Kinesis.  And most importantly does it meet my keyboarding needs and provide ergonomics I'm comfortable with?  Yes. It's got just enough split and angle for me to still feel like I'm typing on a split board both in terms of the typing experience and in the placement of my hands and arms.  As long as I can come around to some of the new key positions or find places to do some remapping for those keys that I'm comfortable with then I can see this board being my daily driver on my main machine(s).
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2011, 22:17:58 by Gerk »
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #125 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 22:08:15 »
Quote from: Lanx;476283
if that were true, TE would have stolen the slant/incline/curve of the MS ergo 4k like i did, cuz they feel really nice, otherwise TE is not innovation just... a lesser kinesis.

Not at all.  I think that the TE board is very far away from the Kinesis to be honest.  They have a few similarities but that's where it ends.  Kinesis doesn't "own" the split keyboard game, they just happen to be one of the (currently few) players in it.  Also "stealing a slant" wouldn't really be innovation ... it  would be combining other things to see what happens by ... stealing a slant.  I think what they have done here is the innovation -- in that they didn't take the same approach as either.

I'm an ergo 4k fan (4+ years as my daily driver until recently) and I think that other ergo 4k fans may be pleasantly surprised on how the TE feels.  The TE is a step further design wise though because they chose not to slant it, but instead angle the matrix layout and move it back inwards -- pretty much opposite what the ergo 4k or the kinesis does.  The more I use this board the more I feel that this approach may actually be superior to a wide split (I know, blasphemy again .. and some part of my mind also thinks that this other part is crazy) ... but it feels great ergonomically.  Time will tell in this regard.  

Also, another thing that I really like about the TE as opposed to the Kinesis and to a lesser degree the ergo 4k, is that the TE is not a tall board, it's very close to my physical desktop, which also means less of change going from the home row to a pointing device.  Both of the aforementioned boards were terrible for this, my trackpad was always too far from my home row for my liking.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #126 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 23:35:21 »
It's not blasphemy to like the TE and find qualities about it superior to Kinesis. You make many great points about this, no need to justify buddy :)

I think there has been with several of us (myself included) with short patience with the armchair quarterbacking praise of the TE a year before it came out, it always sounded odd and disingenuous. Which is why some of the accusations got thrown around, since the statements sounded somewhat suspicious, and the "company" does not communicate. A word to define this would be "Frustration".

As far as the $300 statement goes, we can all just stop that silly talk right now. Anyhow higher cost does not mean it's better. If it's better, people are willing to pay more, the market dictates. I agree with Lanx (because the guy's an animal and I'm somewhat afraid of him) that the Kinesis is topped out at almost $300. And NO ONE is going to buy the TE for $250+ except the guys mother. $300 slam dunk my ass.

Regarding what is better, split and curved keywells or angled and flat, of course it depends on a few factors, but more importantly I don't think a direct comparison can be made. They're just too different, not better or worse. That being said, some will prefer one or the other. Hell, I have friends that 'prefer' Pabst Blue Ribbon. Meh.

And the evolutionary scale of the TE and Kinesis, obviously the Kinesis is a more highly designed, featured, and evolved product. This does not inherently make it "better". Again, I think it's more of an issue of being very different. I'm not saying this to keep the peace with everybody here (for all I care ya'll can go screw yerselves with a barrel of Pabst Blue Ribbon in a field), but a direct comparison is inappropriate. A more general comparison is a far more informative and it's not so much about rating something as it is illustrating it's perceived pros and cons and fitting the need appropriately.

I'm disagree with the statement Architect makes that TE 'takes it a step further'? The center row? Yes, you need to take your fingers off home row, that's a step further. The two movement clusters (which I like), yep, take your fingers off home row for another step further. The F-key row (with Cherry switches thank god), mmmm, yea take a step further and get your fingers off the home row AGAIN. Ok, ok...I agree with the statement after all. I guess we can be BFFs.

TE has some very nice stuff. Some very qualified people here whose opinions I value have made some strong statements (pros and cons). Gerk and Rag are right, the keyboard probably is a bit misleading, and actually using it is a better experience than it would seem. I think some of the grittiness we're seeing about the TE is the repeated "it's better than a Kinesis" and the not-so-robust back up to solidify those claims. I believe the TE needs to stand on it's own and not be compared to anything. It is what it is, and it ain't gonna be what's it's never gonna be. And, for the record, it ain't no Kinesis. Wait till mid-late 2012 when our TE clone and a couple others become available...I'll be keeping everyone here informed, the contact will be via phone, email, letter, etc.

I'm curious, since the original discussion was of ergonomics, WHAT IS MORE ERGONOMIC? Oh yea, we have no data on TE. Call the company, oh yea, there's no phone number. Email them, oh yea, you might get a response, you might not.

Disclaimer: I am in no way employed by, invested with, or have family involved with TE in any way, shape or form.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #127 on: Thu, 22 December 2011, 23:54:05 »
About F-keys,
Ergonomic is: having the F keys directly above the number keys, so they can be touched typed. Neither the TE nor the Kinesis have that.
Also Ergonomic is: having F keys on the number row itself, as a 2nd layer, like the KBC Poker does. Kinesis supports that (by remapping it) and using a footswitch, as there is sadly no momentary keypad-shift key.
As far as I can tell TE has no momentary keypad-shift key either, just a NumLock toggle, which doesn't cut it as an Fn key. It would be awesome if TE colud be programmed to have a 2nd layer and a momentary Fn key, but that's just wishful thinking.

So both boards leave a lot to be desired in the Function key department... TE would be clear winner if they arrenged the F-keys better, too bad, they could have easily done it.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #128 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:25:10 »
Yea! TE SUCKS!

That's bound to get somebody, somewhere riled up. Maybe the guys mom.

I do about 50% F-keys with the stupid rubbers as touch type with fingers on home row, but need to keep an eye on it. The Split Kinesis mod with cherry switches for the F-keys can be touch typed 80-90%. Not shabby.

I wonder why Kinesis didn't use hard buttons instead of the rubbers? I think they cheaped out since no matter what it was going to suck.
« Last Edit: Sat, 24 December 2011, 01:58:48 by input nirvana »
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Offline Lanx

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« Reply #129 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:35:10 »
grrr, i lost what i was writing...
long story short, i can't view the TE as anymore than a an ergo split matrix TKL.

i'll go into more i guess, but this gave me a cool idea for a poll since if anything the ergo subforum is at least heating up.

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #130 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:39:17 »
For $300 I'd want the TE -
 To be split into 2 halves - not just two key groups
 An incline set like the Kinesis freestyle
 Programmability - without having to use software - so I could map function H, function C, function T and function N as cursor keys
 Dvorak legends
 Trackpoint

Shame TE didn't contact me when it was doing it's research...:smile:


Yeah the rubber function keys on the Kinesis are terrible.  At least Maltron didn't go down that route.
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:41:20 by hoggy »
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http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #131 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:39:44 »
Quote from: input nirvana;476454
Yea! TE SUCKS!

That's bound to get somebody, somewhere riled up. Maybe the guys mom.

I do about half F-keys with the stupid rubbers as touch type with fingers on home row, but need to keep an eye on it. The Split with cherry switches can be touch typed 80-90%. Not shabby.

I wonder why Kinesis didn't use hard buttons instead of the rubbers? I think they cheaped out since no matter what it was going to suck.

well i think most of us 90% agree on the flaws of the kinesis
high intro price point
cheap rubber dome f keys
cheap AND small rubber dome f keys
set "width" of the keyboard (meaning should be adjustable)
flat, no inward slope
keywells are not angled towards center, instead straight

these are either flaws, or just a wish list.

Offline sordna

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« Reply #132 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:52:54 »
Quote from: hoggy;476462
For $300 I'd want the TE -
 To be split into 2 halves - not just two key groups
 An incline set like the Kinesis freestyle
 Programmability - without having to use software - so I could map function H, function C, function T and function N as cursor keys
 Dvorak legends
 Trackpoint

You have a customer. Hey, I'd pay $400 for something like that. Oh wait, I already signed up for that one.

Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #133 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:57:30 »
There's been a dearth of mechanical ergonomic keyboards for a while.  A few at the top end - datahand, maltron, kinesis - while at the bottom end all we had was tkl designs.  In the middle was the  goldtouch and the freestyle neither of which are mechanical.  A lot of the top end really don't sell many units.

TE has found a quite a gap.  It should stick to that gap rather than reposition itself higher.  A TE2 with a few changes (now the moulds are done) could be a great offering.  

If they move the price upto to $300 then they leave that gap for a company like KBC to fill - and if KBC came out with something like the TE, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

The best thing TE could do now is employ a decent marketing person and give them full control of the marketing.  (iMav invited TE to open a vendor forum here - haven't seen it yet).
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Offline hoggy

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« Reply #134 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 00:58:39 »
Quote from: sordna;476475
You have a customer. Hey, I'd pay $400 for something like that. Oh wait, I already signed up for that one.

Show Image

I'd buy that in a heartbeat, too.  Oh, wait, I already agreed to.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #135 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 01:13:28 »
Quote from: hoggy;476462
For $300 I'd want the TE -
 To be split into 2 halves - not just two key groups
 An incline set like the Kinesis freestyle
 Programmability - without having to use software - so I could map function H, function C, function T and function N as cursor keys
 Dvorak legends
 Trackpoint

Shame TE didn't contact me when it was doing it's research...:smile:

Yeah the rubber function keys on the Kinesis are terrible.  At least Maltron didn't go down that route.

Damn picky foriegners.

Quote from: Lanx;476465
well i think most of us 90% agree on the flaws of the kinesis
high intro price point
cheap rubber dome f keys
cheap AND small rubber dome f keys
set "width" of the keyboard (meaning should be adjustable)
flat, no inward slope
keywells are not angled towards center, instead straight

these are either flaws, or just a wish list.

Damn picky domestics.

Quote from: hoggy;476477
TE has found a quite a gap.  It should stick to that gap rather than reposition itself higher.  A TE2 with a few changes (now the moulds are done) could be a great offering.

Agreed. $300 my ASS.

 
Quote from: hoggy;476477
The best thing TE could do now is employ a decent marketing person and give them full control of the marketing.  (iMav invited TE to open a vendor forum here - haven't seen it yet).

Hello? I''m heeeere. Hello? Is this thing on?
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Offline Architect

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« Reply #136 on: Fri, 23 December 2011, 17:05:27 »
Quote
$300 my ASS.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35817[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Fri, 23 December 2011, 18:47:24 by Architect »
TECK 209 Blank Keys; Leopold Number Pad; X-Keys Professional; X-Keys 84.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #137 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 02:00:31 »
Quote from: Architect;476888
(Attachment Link) 35817[/ATTACH]

Next time you post pics of me, it would be nice if you asked first.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #138 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 12:29:43 »
I have it too now. It's quite all right. Mine came with Cherry Brown and it's the first time I used these switches... at first I was like OMG this is terrible but it only took a minute to get used to. I might like these more than Blue.

Haven't tested the keyboard yet. I guess I could test to see if all keys work using xev, but first I want to design a layout and reprogram the firmware. I have the blank one. Looks nice but a white keyboard of this kind really would have been killer, joe. Killer!

But, yeah. I'm working on my own input device that will hopefully replace my TE but for now I think I'll use it, once I have that firmware/layout.

(Just noticed your sig input nirvana, I typed this post with IBM 8923.)

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #139 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 12:35:12 »
Also, the staggering of this kind is really far too mild to be effective. If the distances were greater than it would have been really noticable and therefore more comfortable, but I suppose it's a major improvement over the classic typewriter staggering of 99% of all keyboards out there.

Offline sordna

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« Reply #140 on: Sat, 24 December 2011, 13:38:58 »
Here's an outside review I saw linked from the TE facebook page:

http://nicholas.rinard.us/2011/12/truly-ergonomic-keyboard.html
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #141 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 01:22:08 »
er... he has a touchstream keyboard but never found a 'board with physical keys in a similar layout?  Sheesh.


Edit: should have gone to geekhack.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #142 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 02:25:10 »
Quote from: Keymonger;477201
(Just noticed your sig input nirvana, I typed this post with IBM 8923.)

Glad you're digging the TE, you waited long enough! lol

Those 8923's aren't too shabby, are they? I was thinking of keeping it so if friends ever need to type at my home, they could use that rather than get freaked out by the Kinesis Advantage. But I don't have any friends :(
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Offline Gerk

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« Reply #143 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 10:07:51 »
Quote from: sordna;477236
Here's an outside review I saw linked from the TE facebook page:

http://nicholas.rinard.us/2011/12/truly-ergonomic-keyboard.html

I dunno about this guy ...

Quote
The only character key which actually moved from one side of the keyboard to the other is the question-mark key.

I think he should look again.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns) | Kinesis Freestyle Edge (reds)

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #144 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 12:57:22 »
Quote from: Gerk;477512
I dunno about this guy ...



I think he should look again.

Meh, he's a geek, just not a geek HACK.

Someone do him a favor and post informing him of the mosts comprehensive keyboard site ON THE PLANET. 6 months from now he'll have 6 keyboards and moan about how life was before...
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
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Offline hoggy

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« Reply #145 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 16:22:17 »
Yeah, before geekhack I was looking for the one perfect keyboard that would mean I could continue work as a programmer.  I mean it's a fabulous reason to be looking for an expensive keyboard.  About 2 years on I'm always looking for another keyboard just for entertainment.  I mean that's a lousy reason to be looking for yet another expensive keyboard.

Seems geekhack is like morphine.  You need it now for the pain, but if you get addicted it'll really screw you up.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Truly Ergonomic Unboxing
« Reply #146 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 17:01:29 »
Like this?

[video=youtube_share;714-Ioa4XQw]http://youtu.be/714-Ioa4XQw[/video]
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline wrtcedar

  • Posts: 28
Truly Ergonomic Unboxing
« Reply #147 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 20:30:46 »
Quote from: hoggy;477614
Yeah, before geekhack I was looking for the one perfect keyboard that would mean I could continue work as a programmer. ...  About 2 years on I'm always looking for another keyboard just for entertainment.

I've noticed that. I've only been a member for a couple of weeks and I'm already wondering how many keyboards I can sneak into the house before someone notices. This is a really dangerous site.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #148 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 22:23:07 »
Quote from: wrtcedar;477678
I've noticed that. I've only been a member for a couple of weeks and I'm already wondering how many keyboards I can sneak into the house before someone notices. This is a really dangerous site.

I used to have one.

Now I have more.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline hoggy

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Truly Ergonomic Unboxing
« Reply #149 on: Sun, 25 December 2011, 23:47:30 »
Quote from: wrtcedar;477678
I've noticed that. I've only been a member for a couple of weeks and I'm already wondering how many keyboards I can sneak into the house before someone notices. This is a really dangerous site.

That's not a problem.  It's when your partner discovers that those boards cost more than £10-£20 that it becomes a problem.

Actually, my gf tolerates it quite well.  I don't smoke or gamble and I don't drink much.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0