Author Topic: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?  (Read 30697 times)

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Offline MarkWilliamson

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 12:18:47 »
I've found a few tantalising hints that something nasty went on between Maltron and Kinesis but can't really find anything to back it up.  It looks like anything that did occur was a while back so I wondered if it was within the collective memory but not written up anywhere.  The things I've seen said online could just be spurious waffle or they might point to something in the real world.  I don't mean to smear any reputations here but would like to clarify what has gone on.

From here we have:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MaltronKeyboard
Which says (amongst other things): "Kinesis apparently negotiated with Maltron to produce keyboards with the Maltron layout in the US, but ultimately didn't sign the contract. They did however, get all the ergonomic and technical information on the Maltron layout, and then created their surprisingly similar contour design. Anyone considering a Kinesis should consider the Maltron instead. I believe Maltron has better ergonomics, as well as better BusinessEthics."

And here we have:
http://gadgets.fosfor.se/top-10-most-beautiful-keyboards/
Where one of the comments says: "For the recored the Kinesis Contour is a rip off of the Maltron Ergonomic Keyboard. They just got round the patent laws by ditching the number pad. Do not promote the product."

The latter in particular could just refer to an example of a company trying to out-compete another one in an underserved market, with a design "inspired by" a competitor.  The former comment sounds much worse to me but again is unsubstantiated.

I've been considering one of these boards for a while now and I guess the business ethics of a company do matter to me, so I thought it would be worth seeing what people knew.   It may be that both companies are entirely blameless and I do apologise for spreading what may just be rumours and gossip.  But I thought it would be worth checking out.  Please don't necessarily take my questions here as "proof" of anything - the source links are all the information I have and they're not very substantial.

I'd also be interested in whether anybody had tried both and in whether anyone had compared either board to the Ergomatic (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ErgomaticKeyboard).  The ergomatic looks -  and apparently feels - cheap.  But from what I've heard, so does the (ridiculously expensive) Maltron.  I've had the impression that the Maltron is ergonomically better in some ways but not necessarily in proportion to it's enormous price!

Offline ch_123

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 16:09:52 »
I don't know about what happened between Maltron/Kinesis, and would be interested in hearing about if anyone knew for definite...

Someone around here had a Maltron and said that they weren't particularly impressed by it's quality...

Offline ricercar

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 17:04:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;171647
Someone around here had a Maltron and said that they weren't particularly impressed by it's quality...


Me. I was negatively impressed by the Maltron quality, so much that I loath even going back to do a comprehensive review. The Maltron feels like one of those fiberglas carnival rides: you have to assume it doesn't break down or the company would be out of business ... right?
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Offline Zalusithix

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:49:22 »
I have no idea about the history between the two, but if Kinesis did rip off Maltron, they also improved the design while they were at it. Here's the breakdown as I see it.
  • Kinesis
    • A more modern, clean look
    • Foot pedal attachment option
    • Dvorak/QWERTY dual label option
    • Fully programmable
    • Numpad integrated into right key-well via toggled embedded keyboard level
    • Cherry Browns
    • Chiclet F keys
    • Costs less
  • Maltron
    • Looks like a garage project
    • No attachment options
    • QWERTY/Dvorak/Maltron layout options, but no dual legend
    • Not programmable
    • Numpad between key-wells
    • Cherry Blacks
    • Real F keys
    • Costs more
Basically the only things that could be considered a plus for the Maltron would be the F keys and the keypad. (Or if you are one of the few who prefer typing on Cherry Blacks.) Personally, I'd want a dedicated separate keypad if I were doing lots of number entry every day, regardless of the board. That not being the case, the integrated one on the Kinesis is just fine for my occasional use. Less hand movement between mouse and keypad compared to the Maltron, and no movement when switching between number entry and regular typing. Add the programming to make any key behave as any other key, including macros and the Maltron just looks sad in comparison.

So yeah, I'm glad Kinesis didn't just get a license to make the Maltron... It'd be a lesser keyboard IMO. Competition is a wonderful thing. Pity neither has gotten the motivation to split the keyboard. How Kinesis can go and make the Freestyle and not revamp the Advantage line with a split version is beyond me.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2010, 18:51:34 by Zalusithix »

Offline konz

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 02:23:12 »
Maltron is available with a trackball between the left and right hands.

Maltron split is more appropriate for old-skool typists like me.

I think that Maltron has more thumb keys.

Personally, I think the Maltron's separate Num Pad is a disadvantage, as you have to leave the home row (also for escape, etc).  Non-tactile F and J key caps make this worse.  Lillian Malt was a typing instructor and designed the general layout in the early 70's; it is geared more towards secretaries than programmers.   That said, Kinesis puts square brackets into unusual positions.

You can probably badger Maltron into using brown Cherrys instead of blacks --- they are custom made.  The Maltron case is made using vacuum forming, so it's a bent plastic sheet.  MX-keys are snapped into this sheet and I assume the keys are basically individually wired to the controller, not PCB mounted (which would be difficult because of the 3-D design).  I think the light construction is actually an advantage, as bottoming out forces are readily absorbed by the case.

Ultimately, I ended up very satisfied with Datahand mechanics.

Offline MarkWilliamson

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 05:18:01 »
Most / all the detailed comparisons I've seen so far from someone who has both keyboards seem to say that the Maltron's layout is better - generally the thumb keys seem to be the most important point as they're apparently easier to reach.  Given the Maltron encourages you to type using these (using the Malt layout) this seems like an especially good thing but in any case there's more benefit to having thumb-accessible key clusters if you can use them more easily.  However, in fairness those seemed to be long-term Maltron users who had newly tried a Kinesis.  Here is one, for instance: http://www.tifaq.org/keyboards/archive/kinesis_vs_maltron-feb95-gary_karp.txt

I have had the impression that people buy the Maltron because it does have excellent ergonomics, not because it looks or feels like a premium product.  They've probably got a relatively stable market in people who have reason to believe they really need this keyboard (and potentially have an insurer to pay for it) so as a small manufacturer (one that is never likely to have very wide market share) they probably don't have the motivation (or necessarily resources) to make a nicer-made keyboard.  Several of their other products are aimed squarely at people with serious disabilities, a market which seems pretty underserved by other keyboard manufacturers.  That said, it is a shame Maltron don't invest in some higher quality manufacture (and possibly cheaper labour - I imagine they're making them in the UK and I do believe they are using a labour-intensive point-to-point soldering technique).  They do support their keyboards long term though and they can repair / refurb old keyboards in the interests of ongoing support.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 05:21:22 by MarkWilliamson »

Offline hoggy

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 07:46:01 »
I rented a maltron for a while (about £40 for 4 weeks).  The perception from everyone starts off with "What's that!", and the moment they pick it up the perception just drops as if it's a gimmicky cheapo thingy (few actually try it to their shame).  It just needs a bit more weight to address this.

I bought the Advantage in the end and I'm quite pleased with it.  I agree with Zalusithix, making it adjustable like the freestyle would be a winner.
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Offline Rajagra

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 08:09:27 »
I wonder if Maltron have changed their materials/construction. A colleague had one many years ago and I don't recall it feeling at all flimsy. Maybe it wasn't as heavy as expected - it occupies a lot of volume and had a lot of empty space inside - but it didn't feel cheap.

Offline Zalusithix

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:19:30 »
Quote from: konz
Maltron is available with a trackball between the left and right hands.
Ah, yes... I forgot about the fact that Maltron has a trackball option. I'm not too sure that'd be any more convenient than a trackball to the right of the keyboard though. When I compare hand movement to the middle of the keyboard vs to just right of the keyboard, it feels about the same. I guess it would allow you to have both a mouse and a trackball both within short reach, which would be a plus.

Quote from: konz
Maltron split is more appropriate for old-skool typists like me.
Given that the general design is so similar between the two split wise, I'm curious as to why you think the Maltron is more appropriate. Unless you're just referring to where they stick a given key by default?

Quote from: konz
I think that Maltron has more thumb keys.
Maltron does have one to two more thumb keys. (Depends on whether you have a double width key turned into two smaller ones.) That said, I don't think the thumbs are really that great at fine motor movements to hit the smaller keys. Maybe it's just me, but while stronger, my thumbs are nowhere near as effective as my pointer digits on hitting varying small locations without fatigue. While I can hit the 4 main thumb keys on the Kinesis without any problem, the smaller ones just don't feel that natural in comparison. Even if the Maltron is better in that sense, I can't see myself really wanting to use my thumbs for small keys. (Even when positioning my hands for best comfort on hitting the thumb pads, the finger movement needed to actuate multiple smaller keys just feels awkward.) Given the fact that even the Maltron relegates the smaller keys to lesser used things (home/end/arrows/etc), I think they agree. Note that I have large hands though, so perhaps other people would have an issue even using the main thumb keys on the Kinesis.

Quote from: konz
Personally, I think the Maltron's separate Num Pad is a disadvantage, as you have to leave the home row (also for escape, etc). Non-tactile F and J key caps make this worse. Lillian Malt was a typing instructor and designed the general layout in the early 70's; it is geared more towards secretaries than programmers. That said, Kinesis puts square brackets into unusual positions.
I agree with the numpad assessment. As for the brackets on the Kinesis, I personally find the arrow placement to be more unusual and downright confusing to use. Thanks to the programming ability of the Kinesis though, you can fix any placement problem easily. For instance, I've modified the embedded keypad keyboard level so that when toggled, ESDF become the arrow keys. Since I also have the foot pedal attachment, I can toggle that keyboard level hands free no less! There are too few keyboards out there with that level of flexibility.

Quote from: konz
You can probably badger Maltron into using brown Cherrys instead of blacks --- they are custom made. The Maltron case is made using vacuum forming, so it's a bent plastic sheet. MX-keys are snapped into this sheet and I assume the keys are basically individually wired to the controller, not PCB mounted (which would be difficult because of the 3-D design). I think the light construction is actually an advantage, as bottoming out forces are readily absorbed by the case.
Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.

Maltrons are supposed to be hand wired, but I think that's more of a "we're adhering to our history" or "don't fix what isn't broken" sort of thing than anything. The Kinesis is PCB mounted, and they don't seem to have any problems with the curved design. *shrugs* I'll give them credit for doing something the old fashioned way, but I'm a realist, and I don't trust a person wiring things by hand any more than a machine soldering to a PCB.

Quote
Ultimately, I ended up very satisfied with Datahand mechanics.
I'd like to try a Datahand at some point, but given the price combined with the fact that the company is all but dead, I'm weary of investing into one.

Quote from: MarkWilliamson
They do support their keyboards long term though and they can repair / refurb old keyboards in the interests of ongoing support.
For what it's worth, the Maltrons have a 1 year warranty while Kinesis have a 2 year warranty on their keyboards.

Also, while I know I'm coming off as almost anti-Maltron in these posts, I really don't have an axe to grind with them. I just see them as having stagnated. If they put half the effort into improving the design as originally went into inventing it, I'm sure they'd beat the Kinesis hands down. As it stands though, I'll stick with my Kinesis without any regret. Heck, I'll probably end up buying another Kinesis to hack into two eventually if they don't come out with their own split version.
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:23:06 by Zalusithix »

Offline ch_123

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:27:24 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;171918
Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.


Supposedly the Maltron has been around since the 70s. Back then, linear switches were very popular/common, so maybe they've stuck to them because that are what their customers are used to by now.

Offline Zalusithix

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:46:05 »
Quote from: ch_123;171921
Supposedly the Maltron has been around since the 70s. Back then, linear switches were very popular/common, so maybe they've stuck to them because that are what their customers are used to by now.


Quite possible I suppose, especially given the smaller market that they serve. I didn't even think about the potential historical reasons behind such a choice.

Offline ricercar

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 14:57:25 »
I think the main reason I've been reluctant to post a negative review of the Maltron is they address a market space no one else does as well: the one-hand keyboard. If I was in need of a right-hand only board, I'd buy a Maltron in an instant: no hesitation. (I own a Maltron left-hand only keyboard.)



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Offline ch_123

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 15:00:03 »
Christ, if that guy's hand was an inch or two higher, he'd be in a whole world of ****...

Offline itlnstln

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 13 April 2010, 15:26:05 »
That guy's dentist is rubbing his hands just waiting to give him a repair bill.


Offline konz

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 14 April 2010, 06:14:47 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;171918

Given that the general design is so similar between the two split wise, I'm curious as to why you think the Maltron is more appropriate. Unless you're just referring to where they stick a given key by default?

The Maltron QWERTY layout matches the way I was taught touch typing, which is apparently "Old Skool".  In particular, the split is between the 6 and 7 keys.  I don't remember the details, but the Advantage is further removed from the standard layout than Maltron.

I think the Advantage has less keys, so that remapping keys just shifts the problem around.   I remember noticing that both the ESC key and the left bracket were hard to reach on the Advantage, a significant problem for vi users (Conrol-[ is ESC).

Quote from: Zalusithix;171918

Maltron does have one to two more thumb keys. (Depends on whether you have a double width key turned into two smaller ones.) That said, I don't think the thumbs are really that great at fine motor movements to hit the smaller keys.

I felt that the Maltron thumb area should be curved more.  It was hard to "reach over" to press rearward keys.  The Datahand utilizes the thumbs very effectively.

Quote from: Zalusithix;171918

Yeah, I imagine you probably could get a Cherry brown version of the Maltron, but I question why they use the blacks to begin with. Given the purpose of the board, it would seem that browns would have been the default. Eh, chalk it up to differences in preferences I guess.

Also, while I know I'm coming off as almost anti-Maltron in these posts, I really don't have an axe to grind with them. I just see them as having stagnated. If they put half the effort into improving the design as originally went into inventing it, I'm sure they'd beat the Kinesis hands down. As it stands though, I'll stick with my Kinesis without any regret. Heck, I'll probably end up buying another Kinesis to hack into two eventually if they don't come out with their own split version.


Maltron is a tiny machine shop out somewhere in the English woods, content with serving a niche market.

Kinesis seems to have become pretty conservative too (Freestyle instead of split contour, Maxim a re-badged Fujitsu (-Siemens)).

Even if Datahand does go under, I'm confident Lynn will save the repair inventory and send me spare parts from her garage :-).

Offline hoggy

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 14 April 2010, 07:49:55 »
Maltron explain that their prices are high because they hand solder their boards, but if you look at the executive model (it's flat btw), you notice that they're still hand soldering when they really don't need to.  

I'd be tempted even at that price if the executive 'board was split like the freestyle.  Does any know of a 'board that has a grid layout like the advantage and split like the freestyle?
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Offline JBert

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 14 April 2010, 13:34:02 »
Their idea is that hand-soldering the point-to-point circuit results in better durability. While this is likely true for the wires to the keyswitches, I wonder if the connection to the controller holds.
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Offline Zalusithix

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 14 April 2010, 18:49:08 »
Quote from: konz
The Maltron QWERTY layout matches the way I was taught touch typing, which is apparently "Old Skool". In particular, the split is between the 6 and 7 keys. I don't remember the details, but the Advantage is further removed from the standard layout than Maltron.
I thought it might have something to do with the 6/7 split vs 5/6 split. But yeah, I will give you that the layout is a bit nonstandard when compared to a normal keyboard. Of course, the whole keyboard is nonstandard, so I didn't find the changes all too hard to pick up on. However, I also had the benefit of changing from improvised QWERTY touch typing to more or less by the books Dvorak touch typing when I moved to the Kinesis. This allowed me to keep the majority of my QWERTY typing speed on normal keyboards, while giving me a better experience on the Kinesis.

Also, the Maltron and Kinesis have exactly the same number of keys in the main keywells. The only exception to that would be the F keys which are quite different in their implementation. The bigger problem on remapping the keys to be what you wanted them to be would be that the key labels wouldn't match at all. Since the keycaps used in the Kinesis come in a variety of shapes, there's no way to freely move keycaps around. Only certain ones will fit in any given spot.

Quote from: konz
Kinesis seems to have become pretty conservative too (Freestyle instead of split contour, Maxim a re-badged Fujitsu (-Siemens)).
I wont disagree there, but in the case of the Contour/Advantage, they have the luxury of having what is essentially the most updated/advanced version. So long as Maltron doesn't really do anything to raise the bar, Kinesis will have no competitive motive to advance their own. As far as I see it, the ball's in Maltron's court, and they're just sitting on it.

Quote from: JBert
Their idea is that hand-soldering the point-to-point circuit results in better durability. While this is likely true for the wires to the keyswitches, I wonder if the connection to the controller holds.
I question even the switches part. Humans are far more likely to mess up soldering or any other precision task when compared to a machine. While things like "hand made" always sound good, the fact of the matter is machines beat us at doing repetitive precision work long ago.

Quote from: webwit
The DataHand is just so much better than all the rest..
Not that it is perfect. I can't rate it compared to other boards, if the other board gets a 9, then I should rate the DataHand a 10. But if that kind of layout and design was the standard, the DataHand would get 7/10, and there's room for improvement. It's a pity they never got there. There was a new version planned, the DataHand Spider, but then the **** started to hit the fan.
The whole DataHand ordeal pits me against myself. The impulsive part of me really wants to try it, price and bleak future be damned. The more reasonable side, however, holds me back every time. With such a low chance the company will ever recover or be bought out, I just cant bring myself to buy one. This isn't even a matter of the near future. It's a matter of the far future. I'm relatively young (25), and if I invest in something so different and get attached to it, what am I going to do 20, 30, 40+ years down the line if something breaks? It's such a radical departure from the normal keyboard, that there will probably never be anything made like it again. They're way too expensive to just stock up on for future parts.

As for the fact that the DataHand could use improvements, it brings to light the down side to such a complex design: it is beyond the ability for any normal person to hack up a DIY version with improvements. With a standard keyboard concept, anybody willing to put in the time and effort could create any layout they wanted. The keyswitches and other parts are there, the wiring matrices are known, and all that is really needed is a way to hold it all together. The DataHand, however, would require access to a CNC machine or a 3D printer to even have a chance at creating a similar device. Pretty much every piece would have to be redesigned and recreated from the ground up.

Offline konz

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 16 April 2010, 02:42:53 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;172197

As for the fact that the DataHand could use improvements, it brings to light the down side to such a complex design: it is beyond the ability for any normal person to hack up a DIY version with improvements. With a standard keyboard concept, anybody willing to put in the time and effort could create any layout they wanted. The keyswitches and other parts are there, the wiring matrices are known, and all that is really needed is a way to hold it all together. The DataHand, however, would require access to a CNC machine or a 3D printer to even have a chance at creating a similar device. Pretty much every piece would have to be redesigned and recreated from the ground up.


On the other hand, the Datahand is not a highly integrated, mass-produced product.  I.e., with enough time and dedication, you can replace any defective electronics.  The controller should last too; Model Ms and Fs are still humming, long after the computer they came with gave out.

Mechanically, there is little to wear out, as the keys are magnetic.  You might break off keys, so get some spares.

I guess the biggest danger is spilling liquid into them, so don't do that.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 16 April 2010, 23:59:39 »
Quote from: webwit;172660
At one point I want to take the finger and thumb units and logic boards out of their bulky cases, and integrate them in swivelable chair arm rests.


A-HA!

THAT'S the killer idea of 2010! Just eliminate the cases entirely!

I'm so on it.
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Offline M4R5

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:55:15 »
Quote from: MarkWilliamson;171615
I've found a few tantalising hints that something nasty went on between Maltron and Kinesis but can't really find anything to back it up.  It looks like anything that did occur was a while back so I wondered if it was within the collective memory but not written up anywhere.


Oh I know what happened. The design is Malton's and patented, but the patent wasn't watertight. Kinesis ripped of the design and got around the patent by leaving the number pad off from the middle. I dislike it when people recommend Kinesis, but I supposed they don't know what they're doing. The patent has expired now anyway, but in my view Kinesis are thieves. Maltron probably could've still busted Kinesis for reproducing a registered design, but I don't think that they did.

One thing which annoys me about recent times is people's tendancy to trust the media and articles that they find online written by third parties. Maltron publish their phone number. If you want to verify the truth, call them up and ask, rather than believing some teenager with a blog.

Offline didjamatic

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 15:36:47 »
Quote from: ricercar;171930
I think the main reason I've been reluctant to post a negative review of the Maltron is they address a market space no one else does as well: the one-hand keyboard. If I was in need of a right-hand only board, I'd buy a Maltron in an instant: no hesitation. (I own a Maltron left-hand only keyboard.)

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Offline Zalusithix

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 16:25:52 »
Quote from: M4R5;173284
I dislike it when people recommend Kinesis, but I supposed they don't know what they're doing.
That or they simply don't care. A lot of people recommend products primarily based on the merits of the product - not the company behind the product. Personally, if I had to concern myself over every ethically questionable move that a company / manufacturer made, I'd be buying a heck of a lot less stuff. I'd certainly not be using a computer at any rate lol. Between the crazy lawsuits, patent abuse, price fixing, outsourcing, lies, etc., there's nary a company out there with a clean record.

I'll make exceptions to my indifference for companies like Walmart who have put more small businesses out of business than I care to even think about. In cases like this though where it's two small companies that are still in business? Not really a big concern to me. If anything they now have competition and can strive to outdo each other.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 00:59:25 »
Quote from: webwit;172660
At one point I want to take the finger and thumb units and logic boards out of their bulky cases, and integrate them in swivelable chair arm rests.

Like either of these?

http://www.industrial-ergonomics.com/shadow_rest.html
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 April 2010, 01:02:37 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 28 March 2011, 03:03:45 »
I suppose for what it's worth, in reading through the Maltron website I saw somewhere that it's appearance (the crinkly grey/black plastic) was to attempt to reduce the amount of reflected light off the surface of the keyboard.

And I have to say the hand soldering works very well.  I'm still using my original 1986 Maltron which was done by hand.  Never a problem.:biggrin:

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 28 March 2011, 10:01:05 »
Maltron is the original and an pleasant company, i've got an special "3D" keyboard-shell
from them, including help and hints to finalize the body.. quite cool - try this with the
plagiat company ;-)

Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline Input Nirvana

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Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 30 March 2011, 08:55:12 »
Am I seeing a Noctua-board?? :)

What did the shell cost?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 30 March 2011, 10:53:08 »
I suppose if one found that the (lack of) weight of a keyboard was a problem, it would be a simple matter to go to an electronics hobby shop, buy a roll of resin-cored solder and tape it to the underside of the keyboard.

Like this:


:biggrin:

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 30 March 2011, 11:09:21 »
Ah,

but if you use resin cored solder, then you have a ready supply to re-solder any wires which come loose in the hand-made keyboard.

:biggrin:

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline rantenki

  • Posts: 114
    • http://armyofevilrobots.com/
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 30 March 2011, 11:10:58 »


Or Bismuth; all the weight without the nasty heavy metal toxicity (may still contain trace lead in the alloy).
http://www.amazon.com/Low-Melting-Point-Bismuth-Based-Ingot-158-190-ALLOY/dp/B001QUZ5YE/ref=pd_sbs_indust_4

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 30 March 2011, 13:01:55 »
Quote from: input nirvana;321328
Am I seeing a Noctua-board?? :)

What did the shell cost?


Yes the first one above and the second one below. The keyboard shell is an
ten-keyless version, not as expensive as you may think ;-) but you have to
invest some time to finalize the body because it is only an realy naked one..

you need some "experience" in mixing the original Maltron-glue, an simple
but quite cool solution that i have never heard before.. also the feel-good
factor is still impressive, compared to my first noctua-board huuhhhh.. ;-)
Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline PCDMaltron

  • Posts: 19
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 05:24:14 »
Hi all,

I've recently started working for Maltron and launching a twitter feed for them and also blogging etc. I welcome all feedback and suggestions about the keyboards and equally any queries about the history between Maltron and Kinesis can be answered by contacting us directly.

All Maltron keyboards are hand produced here in the UK and can be adapted to suit any international keybaord layout. We've recently completed a contract for over 300 units with Turkish letter layouts.

In summary of our range of keyboards, we have four distinct models;

* Single Handed
* Dual Handed
* Mouth / Head stick
* Expanded

These are all designed to assist people who have Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI), Work related upper limb disorder, cerebral palsy, upper limb amputations, limited hand use, strokes, paralysis and visual impairment. We have had a long history of producing these going back the the 1970s and indeed, we still have keyboards out there working well from the 1980s. Any problems we welcome returns, fix them, and dispatch back to the user.

Currently in the works is an updated model which will be programable. Also all future keyboars will be cable detachable. In respect to materials used, owing to the unique shape and design of them, we have explored alternative methods of production and struggled to move beyond vacuum forming. Our dual handed models and single handed models are very "deep" in terms of curvature and we have found that the most effective way of ensuring ergonomics is to vacuum form them.

We welcome all feedback and suggestions here at Maltron and regularly update our site with news etc. Additionally, we've now started up a twitter feed, @PCDMaltron.  All queries can be answered via our website, http://www.maltron.com (please note, were are in the UK so from the US, we will be 5 to 8 hours ahead).

Many thanks,

Adam
Marketing Chap at Maltron

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 05:56:17 »
Quote from: PCDMaltron;586153
Hi all,

...

Currently in the works is an updated model which will be programable. Also all future keyboars will be cable detachable. In respect to materials used, owing to the unique shape and design of them, we have explored alternative methods of production and struggled to move beyond vacuum forming. Our dual handed models and single handed models are very "deep" in terms of curvature and we have found that the most effective way of ensuring ergonomics is to vacuum form them.
...

Many thanks,

Adam
Marketing Chap at Maltron



Ah, well, it won't be long until you produce them with 3D printers.  ;-)

Joe
Maltron 3D Dual Hand (x4)
Maltron 3D Single Hand (x2 - L & R)

Many people think their lifestyle comes at a cost - but they are quite cool with that as long as somebody ELSE pays it.

Offline PCDMaltron

  • Posts: 19
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 06:39:49 »
Quote from: Proword;586162
Ah, well, it won't be long until you produce them with 3D printers.  ;-)

Joe

Yes! We'd love to get one of those, seen one in opperation at a few fairs and exhibitions! Trouble is, not found an affordable one yet!

Considering one machine was printing a castle complete with spiral stair case, I'm sure it could managed a Maltron!

Adam

Offline Icarium

  • Posts: 251
  • I AM A MONKEY!
Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 15:38:08 »
I'm not sure about licensing but for example shapeways will print stuff for you if you provide the CAD/3D-drawing.
I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 09:41:58 »
I know this an old thread, but this might be the most useful discussion I've found on the web comparing Maltron vs. the Kinesis Advantage. I am currently in possession of both (I will get rid of one), so I would like to contribute my bit to anybody that stumbles upon this thread.

After using both alternatively for a few days using the QWERTY layout, I must say that I prefer using the Maltron 89 series. Here are the strengths of the Maltron in my opinion:

Thumb keys. I prefer the depressed position of the thumb keys on the Maltron. The 89 series makes better use of these thumb keys than the 90 series Maltron or the Kinesis Advantage. The depressed position of the thumb keys compared the raised position of the Kinesis makes a difference for the farther away, smaller thumb keys and caused less hand strain with heavy typing.

The shift keys. The Maltron has those big shift keys, while the Kinesis Advantage had those tiny shift keys. When switching between the two keyboards, I made considerably more mistakes with the Kinesis. The pinky is not the most useful finger, so it helps to have a big shift key. But I've always had trouble with smaller shift keys.

Space between keys. The Maltron has more space between the keys and I find that very useful for reducing mistakes and not double typing. I think the Maltron is better suited for people with bigger fingers that always have trouble double-hitting keys.

Less concave shape. I'm not sure if that is the right term, but the Kinesis seems to have more curve to it. That made my fingers feel crowded in that typing position.  Didn't like it. Plus that bottom row of the Kinesis was very uncomfortable to use.

F keys. I don't use these much, but those rubber pieces of crap on the Kinesis really need to be upgraded. And I can't imagine it will raise the price of the keyboard that much.

The Alt/tab combo. This has been criticized many times on the Kinesis Advantage. The location of the Alt/tab is wretched.  Maltron did a good job putting the tab in the thumb keys.

Another perk with my particular used Maltron is that the parenthesis, brackets, slashes, and carrot things are on separate sides of the keyboards. This is much more useful than the normal location on any keyboard, and on the locations of the Kinesis. I also don't understand why Kinesis puts two backslash keys on the keyboards. What a waste.

After tearing apart the Kinesis Advantage, I will list what I like about it better than the Maltron.

Programmability   That certainly is nice and a huge plus. I can move keys around like those poorly placed arrow keys and use different key layouts. If I don't like something on the Maltron, tough, I am stuck with it.

The big Backspace/Delete keys I like these better than 89 series Maltron's smaller keys on opposite sides of the keyboard.

Cherry MX red keys I preferred the Cherry MX red key switches on the Kinesis rather than the more resistant Cherry MX blacks on the Maltron. However, the harder to hit Cherry MX black keys do reduce mistakes because I can't type as fast.


Overall, I found the Maltron to be a more ergonomic design and more comfortable to use. I preferred the position of many keys, and the feel of the keyboard while using it. I made less mistakes with the Maltron.  The Kinesis Advantage does have the huge advantage of programmability and a much lower price. However, I obtained a used Maltron for about the same price as the Kinesis, so price wasn't as large of a factor. I would have a lot of trouble justifying the purchase of new Maltron considering the rumored programmable Maltrons.  I have an email from a Maltron representative say they are testing a prototype of a programmable keyboard at the moment. Should be interesting.
« Last Edit: Fri, 14 September 2012, 12:10:06 by prdlm2009 »
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:06:39 »
Thank you for that info...many people are interested in knowing, but due to the crazy cost and limited availability of Maltrons, RSI people generally don't have the info needed to try one out effectively. Hoggy here and on DT has made comparisons also. I had him take some detailed pics and measurements for a custom project where I'm going to move the thumb cluster on a Kinesis....so again thanks for the additional detail.


Kinesis and Maltron are both redesigning their keyboards at the given moment. To what extent, obviously no one really knows. I've been told Kinesis is working on the F key row, and adding to their already "world class" programming feature set.


Of course in dealing with these types of keyboards..."It's about the ergo, stupid." (Prez Clinton quote I still find funny, so no one get offended). That being said the positioning/placement/feel of the keys/keyboard/usage are 90% of what we mostly look at. Some is affected by programming different keys into different locations....some is not. And, like with most things, some people will find either Maltron or Kinesis more or less comfortable/effective depending on a variety of factors. But I'm sure that if we compared the two with 100 people, I'm so curious to know if there would be a big swing in one direction or the other or would it be relatively evenly split?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:31:04 »
If Maltron is gonna do some innovation again, they should start offering choice of cherry switches, and also make a split keyboard (separate, movable halves) !

I tried a Maltron for a few days, I found the hand position slightly more comfortable... yes the Kinesis "bowls" are a bit too pronounced and also it doesn't have enough of a "tenting" angle ... on the Maltron the hands are rotated a bit more toward the more natural "handshake" position ... see the photo below to compare the angles, I had posted it in this old thread.


BTW there's another thread with many side-by-side photes of Maltron and Kinesis keyboards.

Personally I found the thumb keys better on the Kinesis, and I never had a problem with the shifts. Also the placement of Tab or backslash shouldn't be listed as a con in the Kinesis, because you can remap them. I changed the left backslash to do "Insert" (it has a backslash AND an Insert label anyway). And the tab ? Yes, I loved the tab on the Maltron, so I swapped Tab and Delete on the Kinesis to achieve the same effect!
Another advantage of the Kinesis is the 2nd layer it has. I also found that the Kinesis sent cleaner keycodes to the computer; for some keys the maltron seemed to send multiple key codes, like it sent a shift along with some keys, making it very hard to remap keys with software.
Overall my choice went to the Kinesis ... I've done some modifications to it as well, namely added several extra keys to it.

I'm very excited about the Ergodox keyboard project though, check it out!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html

« Last Edit: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:33:43 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:36:43 »
Nice follow up comparison with photos.

I'll try to find the Hoggy thread with the physical comparisons on DT and link it here. I've been out of the loop quite a bit, so no promises.... but it is very relevant to this thread now.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
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  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:39:42 »
Of course in dealing with these types of keyboards..."It's about the ergo, stupid." (Prez Clinton quote I still find funny, so no one get offended). That being said the positioning/placement/feel of the keys/keyboard/usage are 90% of what we mostly look at. Some is affected by programming different keys into different locations....some is not. And, like with most things, some people will find either Maltron or Kinesis more or less comfortable/effective depending on a variety of factors. But I'm sure that if we compared the two with 100 people, I'm so curious to know if there would be a big swing in one direction or the other or would it be relatively evenly split?

I certainly agree it's about the ergo and feel. Having both in front of me highlights the differences. The Kinesis certainly has more bells and whistles, but when I typed a couple paragraphs with the Maltron, and then switched to the Kinesis and typed a couple paragraphs, the subtle differences were obvious.  As technology goes, new and slightly better things always will be released, but good ergonomics are not going to change. Unless we evolve into the humans seen in "Wall-E."

Another thing I didn't mention in my first post was that Maltron minimizes the use of the pinky finger, which I think is a great idea. The only thing I hit with my pinky on the Maltron is the home pinky keys and the shift keys. I have formed the habit of using my ring finger for the Q, Z, P, and ? keys rather than my pinky. On the Kinesis, my pinky gets slightly more of a workout with the Tab and smaller Shift keys. Every time I use the pinky finger, my hand comes off the home keys and creates more unwanted movement. I find the pinky is best suited doing the least amount of work as possible. Perhaps one day the pinky finger will go the way of the appendix.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 10:42:32 »
Dunno about a Sports Illustrated bikini cover model with no pinky.

That would shrink my winky.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline vivalarevolución

  • Posts: 2146
  • Location: Naptown, Indiana, USA
  • Keep it real b/c any other way is too stressful
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 11:11:10 »
Personally I found the thumb keys better on the Kinesis, and I never had a problem with the shifts. Also the placement of Tab or backslash shouldn't be listed as a con in the Kinesis, because you can remap them. I changed the left backslash to do "Insert" (it has a backslash AND an Insert label anyway). And the tab ? Yes, I loved the tab on the Maltron, so I swapped Tab and Delete on the Kinesis to achieve the same effect!
Another advantage of the Kinesis is the 2nd layer it has. I also found that the Kinesis sent cleaner keycodes to the computer; for some keys the maltron seemed to send multiple key codes, like it sent a shift along with some keys, making it very hard to remap keys with software.
Overall my choice went to the Kinesis ... I've done some modifications to it as well, namely added several extra keys to it.

I didn't even considering remapping the tab keys and those other pinky keys on the Kinesis. I could easily switch any of those keys to a better position.  I might just keep both keyboards now. One for work, and one for home.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 14 September 2012, 11:21:47 »
Good.

You are now appointed our resident Kinesis-Maltron comparison expert :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 00:46:45 »
it's a travesty both kinesis and maltron don't redesign their ergonomic keyboards. My nephews are my groomsman one is 21 and i think the kinesis/maltron designs are still older than him. Kinesis just needs to make a production copy of the ergodox, hey if what they are good at is taking a proven design (maltron) and putting it into production and shrinking the cost by 2/3's then go for it kinesis. Why the ergodox? it's basically a nice acceptable alternative that many have given their input on, me personally i'd want a concave ergodox with 2 levels of incline, i don't think kinesis could make that tho. Don't we have both a maltron and kinesis rep here? or at least they posted a while back.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 01:05:12 »
Kinesis rep on GH: NATAS206

What you're saying is exactly why I cut a Kinesis into 2 halves. It was the greatest for the couple months I used it. A big reason it was so good, is because I integrated the trackpoint into the right key well. But splitting it was a total WIN. I can't believe I don't have pics of it...I was pretty busy back then working out of town.

Do this to a Kinesis and it becomes almost like a glove: (When I put the unit back together, I'll add the palm keys)
-Split
-integrated trackpoint
-Sordna palm keys

I just had an idea: Maybe give the whole box of everything to someone and let them re-assemble. It's 90% ready to go....hmmm....
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline hoggy

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 03:36:11 »
Perhaps you could send Rick at Kinesis a postcard of it?
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline hoggy

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 03:40:20 »
I've just had this great thought (and it'll be great for 5 minutes and then I'll come to my senses). 

Why don't we send manufacturers Christmas cards (or other suitable holiday related stuff) with images of what we want them to make...

Sorry for the threadcapping...
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Input Nirvana

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Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 10:10:47 »
Hoggy.... You. Are. Crazy.

Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 15 September 2012, 14:11:36 »
Hmm, should probably ask Dox too, if he would mind if Kinesis or any other manufacturer decided to mass-produce his design.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline PCDMaltron

  • Posts: 19
Re: Maltron and Kinesis - any known bad history?
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 02 October 2012, 04:04:06 »
it's a travesty both kinesis and maltron don't redesign their ergonomic keyboards. My nephews are my groomsman one is 21 and i think the kinesis/maltron designs are still older than him. Kinesis just needs to make a production copy of the ergodox, hey if what they are good at is taking a proven design (maltron) and putting it into production and shrinking the cost by 2/3's then go for it kinesis. Why the ergodox? it's basically a nice acceptable alternative that many have given their input on, me personally i'd want a concave ergodox with 2 levels of incline, i don't think kinesis could make that tho. Don't we have both a maltron and kinesis rep here? or at least they posted a while back.

Maltron rep is here! I don't often get chance to check on here though working for both Maltron, Enabling and SEN Technology in the UK! Still, if you have any queries, I will try my best to respond to you or alternatively, please email me at info@maltron.com.

Cheers all,

Adam