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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: zslane on Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:06:13

Title: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:06:13
(01/23/17) Update: G20 Semiotics is Signature Plastics' January Set of the Month and available for purchase now.

If you are a fan of Ron Cobb's Semiotic Standard or Simon Deering's emergency destruct system panel key graphics from Alien then you'll surely recognize the inspiration for this keyset. This set would be dye-sublimated onto PBT. The base keycap color code is WAN.

After looking at the concept renders that follow, I'm sure one of your first questions is, "Why are you using that funky G20 keycap family?" I know that it isn't exactly popular, and in fact there are many who dislike it rather vigorously. But the flat, square shape of G20 keys suits the highly ortholinear nature of the graphics. I've examined renders of the symbols on other types of keycaps, such as DSA, and found that the curvature of the keycap surface distorts the graphics in very unappealing ways.

Given the limited appeal of the G20 family, this would probably be a very small production run. Consequently I don't believe it is suitable for MassDrop; in fact, I doubt they would take interest in it given how exotic this keyset is. I think it is just too unusual for them. My current thinking is putting it up on PMK directly and letting interested buyers vote for it.

Another source of discomfort for many, I'm sure, is the entirely symbolic nature of the alphas and navcluster keys. While this will undoubtedly bother the hunt-and-peck crowd, I think there are benefits to this unique design. First off, the ability to move the keys around however you like allows for a wide variety of international and alternate layouts without any concern for row profile or legend incompatibilities. For the international user, the biggest issue will be the lack of an ISO return key in the G20 family. The only solution for that is the usual ISO return key from the DCS family. If there is enough international interest in this set, I will make a custom graphic to go on the ISO return key so that it isn't simply blank.

Another interesting benefit to this symbolic design is that the ability to arrange the keys however you like means that no two keyboards need ever look exactly the same, at least in terms of the alphas and navcluster keys. Arranging a G20 Semiotic keyboard is almost an art project in itself.

One final note: my intention is to expand on the keys shown, using graphics from areas of the emergency destruct panel not already in use, so that there would be ample "extra" keys in other sizes for things like the ErgoDox and the WhiteFox and so forth. I think it would be nice for this set to reach as many alternate keyboard layouts as possible without anyone having to resort to blanks. Do keep in mind, though, that there are no G20 molds for keycaps larger than 2.75u, and only one size of spacebar (6.25u).

So is this simply too exotic? Too unusual?

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

[attachimg=8]

[attachimg=7]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: climbalima on Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:12:21
Does sp do tri sub?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:26:00
Does sp do tri sub?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

SP has done some pretty crazy dyesub designs in the past. The nyan cat caps spring to mind.

Also, I'll say from experience that the G20 keycap family is actually pretty good. This could be a fun set to have on a white TKL.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 29 October 2016, 16:36:46
I have it on good authority (Melissa from SP) that there is no limit to the number of colors or to the complexity of the graphics that can be printed by their dyesub printer, subject to fundamental "pixel" size and the intrinsic "bleed" characteristics of the process. As Melissa pointed out (in an e-mail), they can print photographs on keycaps, though they might be a bit blurry.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Vigrith on Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:01:29
As a lover of all things strange I'm all for this - very cool concept and though a little chaotic, definitely agree G20 is the correct choice here too.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ndlu2 on Sat, 29 October 2016, 17:26:04
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 29 October 2016, 18:01:49
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.

Normal SP MOQ, so fairly low.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Sat, 29 October 2016, 20:21:46
****.  The only reason I would consider this is because I just learned I can tolerate the DSA profile.  And it has Colemak support.    The TWO reasons I would consider this are I can tolerate DSA, and Colemak support.  And it's ***damn Alien.   Amongst the reasons I would consider this are: I can tolerate DSA, Colemak support, and it's Alien. 

This may be the most niche keyset I have seen.  Even so, I believe G20 is the only profile to do this set justice.  Is there any way to get these caps translucent like in the movie?
[attach=1]

And ndlu2 is correct; the G20 profile has a 3 degree slope.  Here's picture comparing G20 to DSA.

[attach=2]

DSA are approximately 8 mm tall.  G20 is approximately 6+ mm tall on the short end and approximately 7 mm (+/-) tall on the other end.

Any idea of what the price might be at MOQ?  How durable is dye-sub?  Is there a possibility of negotiating a better deal with SP for G20, to help promote this profile?

Too exotic?  Too unusual?  Maybe.  It might be something I can't stand typing on but, ***dammit, I want it.  Even if this set never gets made, don't ever delete those renders.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 29 October 2016, 20:24:09
What would the moq be? G20's are slightly sloped, so you can't really just rotate them without them looking/feeling awkward.

Thank you for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed that. I will ammend my original post.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Sat, 29 October 2016, 21:45:08
I'm glad someone shows G20 some love,  :thumb:
I am using the G20 right now and I actually love it more than OEM
(in the past, I use OEM then change to G20 then change back to OEM for 1 day then change to G20)

this set is indeed exotic, but I don't think that's bad  :))
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jebbra on Mon, 31 October 2016, 01:35:42
Holyfuc I'm in!

A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Data on Mon, 31 October 2016, 07:14:34
Well it's certainly different.  I like the numpad especially.  If the rest of the set had a similar resemblance to a normal keyset I think I'd like it more.  The symbols are just too random -- and I get that's kind of the point, but I can't think of how I would actually use it.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 31 October 2016, 15:41:36
I can't think of how I would actually use it.

I sort of figured it would be used much in the same way as keyboards like this:

(https://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y3p1C3ZVE12r2I8NHBi1vX5uSDyEhHp9ghJ1TAOCK6OucjEDl009MDji0KZRgHh9k-H_yzHLdllMD9QY8B0-yIHII7-a5C9kHbtTPnSd8hS36F522t1SVgO-t6l5InK8rbfGyFAicpHpTsA7Wy6C69wag/20130906_1-2.jpg?psid=1&rdrts=152570383)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 31 October 2016, 15:55:14
A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall  ;D

Then it wouldn't be G20 Semiotic, but G20 EDS Panel.  A different set with a different focus.

Not that such a set isn't worth doing, just not by me necessarily. The modifiers draw from the EDS panel out of necessity (i.e., the Semiotic symbols look wrong on anything but 1u keys, IMO), and the numpad does so only because its ortholinear layout makes it feasible (it would be an ugly mess to try and force an intrinsically ortholinear design around staggered alphas). As cool as the EDS panel is (I love it too), that motif was never intended to be the guiding aesthetic of the entire set. Moreover, you'd lose the ability to arrange the alphas however you wish, which I think is an appealing benefit of the Semiotic symbols. Being purely symbolic, they are linguistically uninflected and therefore intrinsically international and function-adaptable.

In fact, the inclusion of the numpad was almost an afterthought; I was primarily inspired to create something for small layouts, not full-size boards, despite my own general preference for them. If you were to put this set on a 60% or smaller board, there would be a Semiotic symbol available for every 1u key you'd need covered.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Slash Emperor on Mon, 31 October 2016, 17:23:20
I'd be most interested in a GB for this. I'd think it'd be really cool to own such an exotic set.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 31 October 2016, 20:20:24
Does PMK have a voting feature?  I've never seen it.  But like you said, if you go directly through PMK, it seems like you'd face less resistance than if you went through Massdrop.  I can't consider the decision to use EDS legends on the numpad and modifiers to be a compromise because I feel it only enhances the set.   As a Colemak user who only has QWERTY sets right now, this set really appeals to me.   I hear the ship noise of the Nostromo every time I look at this set.  Have I mentioned how much I want this set?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: parablol on Tue, 01 November 2016, 14:17:37
Very cool! I'm into it.

Would you consider adding the following COFFEE keycap?
(https://typesetinthefuture.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/alien_semiotic_coffee.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: finalarcadia on Tue, 01 November 2016, 14:41:45
Very cool! I'm into it.

Would you consider adding the following COFFEE keycap?
Show Image
(https://typesetinthefuture.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/alien_semiotic_coffee.jpg)


It's already there in W position
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: switchnollie on Tue, 01 November 2016, 21:51:46
Dunno if I'd use it but I like the legends.

Would join just have a neat set :p

Definitely unique.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: daijizai on Wed, 02 November 2016, 08:43:00
I would be interested. This could be a fun retrain set to get me over to dvorak on my physical keyboard. Blank keycaps are so boring.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Omnipotent on Wed, 02 November 2016, 11:51:12
I saw this last night and wasn't sure what to think of it. But looking at it again, I feel like it's growing on me. I really like how many of the keys have lines that correlate to one another (Like the numpad, and modifiers). The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Wed, 02 November 2016, 13:46:10
The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D

This comment made me realize that there are currently enough Semiotic symbol keys to cover all the 1u positions on a 60% board, even replacing the numrow. I think I will whip up a render of what that would look like.

But it also raises the uncomfortable (for me) question of how to best arrange child kits. All ideas are welcome. Keep in mind that my intention would be to have an ErgoDox child kit separate from whatever else there is, so there's no need to focus on that per se.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pomk on Wed, 02 November 2016, 13:58:43
Have you considered adding one 1u key so that the top row would be consistent if one where to use HHKB backspace and top row. Also consider adding short right shift.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:07:21
There are over 50 1u Semiotic symbol keys currently defined (and shown in the above renders). That should be enough to cover any HHKB-style layout.

As for additional keys of other sizes, like extra 2.25u keys or 1.5u keys, I want to put together at least one kit of all of those so that nobody with an alternate layout is left out.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pomk on Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:11:25
There are over 50 1u Semiotic symbol keys currently defined (and shown in the above renders). That should be enough to cover any HHKB-style layout.

As for additional keys of other sizes, like extra 2.25u keys or 1.5u keys, I want to put together at least one kit of all of those so that nobody with an alternate layout is left out.
Yes, but the numrow would look a bit silly with the second to last key being semiotic while the rest of the row, barring Esc, being in the style of modifiers/numrow/numpad.

edit: a picture to illustrate:
[attach=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:50:20
Oh! I see what you mean. You want a 1u version of |\ in the style of the current numrow. Yeah, sure, that would be totally doable.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pomk on Wed, 02 November 2016, 14:53:48
Oh! I see what you mean. You want a 1u version of |\ in the style of the current numrow. Yeah, sure, that would be totally doable.
Thanks!  :-*
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 02 November 2016, 20:28:48
The alphas are very interesting as well. I can imagine a lot of people buying the alphas even if they don't buy the entire set.  ;D

This comment made me realize that there are currently enough Semiotic symbol keys to cover all the 1u positions on a 60% board, even replacing the numrow. I think I will whip up a render of what that would look like.

But it also raises the uncomfortable (for me) question of how to best arrange child kits. All ideas are welcome. Keep in mind that my intention would be to have an ErgoDox child kit separate from whatever else there is, so there's no need to focus on that per se.

Maybe see if SP will give you ballpark figures for a semiotic alphas set with only a semiotic number row, a semiotic alphas set with both the semiotic number row and the EDS number row, and a semiotic alpha set with only an EDS number row.  That might help with determining how to arrange child kits.  As for the market demand angle for defining child kits, I personally want all the semiotic legends I can get.  Plus, I need the the EDS modifiers and num pad, a 1.75u EDS key for my right shift, a couple extra 1u EDS keys (looks like you already have those covered) for my bottom row, and a couple 2u EDS keys for my split spacebar.  I can always order 2u blanks from SP, but if there are 2u keys with legends to be had I will strongly consider buying them.   My plan is to cover my needs and get as many additional unique (accepting some overlap in kits) keys as my budget allows.  I want to get as near a complete set as I can afford.  And if you think they'll be amenable, please consider negotiating for an additional discount or a lower MOQ as this set will be promoting their G20 key family, which does not get a lot of exposure.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Wed, 02 November 2016, 23:34:38
My thought about the child kits:

- base kit: (more like... novelties kit  ;D )
all 1u alpha,
NOT include spacebar
NOT include 1.5u ( \ | )

- 60% modifiers
all the (normal) modifier for 60%
include 1.5u ( \ | )

- TKL modifiers
the F row
Print, Scroll Lock, Pause
Home, End, PgUp, PgDw, Ins, Del
arrows

- Numpad
the numpad keys

- Tsangan
2.25u "Shift"
1.75u "Shift" or "Fn"

- ErgoDox
(I don't know much about this, basically: keys for the ErgoDox)

- short Spacebar kit: (split-spacebar users)
2u
2.25u
2.75u

- long Spacebar kit:
6u
6.25u
7u

the kits are a bit unconventional, but it's ok for this set, right?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 00:47:13
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 00:58:44
My thought about the child kits:
:

That's a pretty nice break-down. Keep in mind that there is only one size spacebar in the G20 family, which is 6.25u. We can use anything 2.75u and smaller to also play the role of a spacebar (or split spacebars), but there is nothing between 3u and 6u (and no 7u) for G20.

Also, I am torn over how to best represent the navcluster. As it stands (in my renders anyway), those keys are, in effect, just a bunch of 1u Semiotic symbol keys. Suppose the "Semiotic Base" kit was composed of all the 1u Semiotic symbol keys, all 50+ of them. There would be no need for a navcluster kit because you'd already have what you need in the Semiotics Base kit. Besides, I suspect that most folks will want all the Semiotic symbols, regardless of the layout they are targeting, just so they can pick and choose which ones to use throughout their keyboards. Doing this, however, would turn the TKL kit into nothing more than an F-row kit. And the issue with an F-row kit is that it would be one of the least cost-effective kits being composed of only 12 keycaps.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:28:14
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

(Attachment Link)

look great!  :thumb:

My thought about the child kits:
:

That's a pretty nice break-down. Keep in mind that there is only one size spacebar in the G20 family, which is 6.25u. We can use anything 2.75u and smaller to also play the role of a spacebar (or split spacebars), but there is nothing between 3u and 6u (and no 7u) for G20.

Also, I am torn over how to best represent the navcluster. As it stands (in my renders anyway), those keys are, in effect, just a bunch of 1u Semiotic symbol keys. Suppose the "Semiotic Base" kit was composed of all the 1u Semiotic symbol keys, all 50+ of them. There would be no need for a navcluster kit because you'd already have what you need in the Semiotics Base kit. Besides, I suspect that most folks will want all the Semiotic symbols, regardless of the layout they are targeting, just so they can pick and choose which ones to use throughout their keyboards. Doing this, however, would turn the TKL kit into nothing more than an F-row kit. And the issue with an F-row kit is that it would be one of the least cost-effective kits being composed of only 12 keycaps.

hmm... how about we put the F row keys in Tsangan kit along with the 6.25u spacebar?
the Tsangan kit will cost more than usual but it's understandable.

More
- base kit: (more like... novelties kit  ;D )
all 1u alpha + tkl,
NOT include spacebar
NOT include 1.5u ( \ | )

- 60% modifiers kit:
all the (normal) modifier for 60%
include 1.5u ( \ | )

- Numpad kit:
the numpad keys

- Tsangan kit:
the F row
6.25u (spacebar)
2.25u "Shift"
1.75u "Shift" or "Fn"

- ErgoDox kit:
(I don't know much about this, basically: keys for the ErgoDox)

---------------------
zslane, do you have the "2d render" for this keyset? I want to play around with it a bit  :D

or if possible, please make a render of these layouts (my up-coming board)
More
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: potatobot on Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:32:56
I like it :)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 01:54:37
I confess that I don't really understand what a "Tsangan" kit is. The name means nothing to me. Is it wise to put the spacebar that 99% of users will need into such a strangely named kit?

I can't yet make renders of all the funky layouts out there because I don't yet have graphics for all the extra keys that are needed for them. I will need an inventory of necessary extra keys from you folks so I can be sure nothing is left out.

Once I have everything, I can make a large orthographic render so you can chop up the keys into whatever arrangements you like.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Thu, 03 November 2016, 02:02:01
I confess that I don't really understand what a "Tsangan" kit is. The name means nothing to me. Is it wise to put the spacebar that 99% of users will need into such a strangely named kit?

I just pulled the name "Tsangan" out of other set, silly me!  :p
should that be named "Adapter kit"? (that's not quite right, hmm...)

I can't yet make renders of all the funky layouts out there because I don't yet have graphics for all the extra keys that are needed for them. I will need an inventory of necessary extra keys from you folks so I can be sure nothing is left out.

Once I have everything, I can make a large orthographic render so you can chop up the keys into whatever arrangements you like.

cool!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: JaccoW on Thu, 03 November 2016, 02:14:24
Definitely unique. Might be interested if the price is right. :)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pomk on Thu, 03 November 2016, 03:30:52
Here's what the HHKB-style layout might look like:

(Attachment Link)
Would buy 1/1.

As for sets, I'd suggest the following;
All semiotic
All mods and space
Numpad
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: josephwilk on Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:23:01
Lovely design. Would love to see this on an ergodox. Would fit the sci-fi look with the split square layouts.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: PollandAkuma on Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:29:12
So cool! Would buy, but I'd like to try the profile first!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Thu, 03 November 2016, 12:35:19
Absolutely lovely! Not sure if I'd actually buy it, but it certainly looks cool and is a nice departure from regular blank caps. Also excited to see a set that fits G20 so well.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 13:00:02
As for sets, I'd suggest the following;
All semiotic
All mods and space
Numpad

I like the way you think. Nice and simple.

However, my fear is lack of flexibility means too many folks would be forced to buy keycaps they won't never use (like the entire collection of mods, including alternate layout mods). So here's sorta what I'm pondering:

Semiotic Symbols (all)
Base Mods (w/ spacebar) - combined with the above you have enough to cover any 60% or smaller board.
Top Rows (F- and numrow keys) - combined with the above you have enough to cover TKL and smaller.
Numpad - combined with the above you have enough to cover any full-size board.
ErgoDox - keys specific to the unusual needs of an ErgoDox.
Alternate Extras - basically everything else, which provides for all the other alternate layouts.

Folks wanting 60%-ish boards with a numrow will need the first three kits, and would end up with F-row keys they don't need, but there may be no other way to make those top row keys an optional buy-in and affordable at the same time.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 13:49:28
Just an observation: the anticipated low demand for this highly unusual design would likely result in:

1. Kits that are a little on the expensive side (unless SP decides to offer dramatically low price tiers just to promote the G20 family).

2. A keycap set that is a collector's item right from the get go.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 03 November 2016, 16:30:03
I really love the abstract-future-tech look of this set, and I agree that it fits the G20 profile well.  I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.  They just look too "heavy".  Right now when you look at the keys you can see the division of alphas and modifiers... I'd want it to be extra crazy, like not even being able to distinguish between the two!  CHAOS!  BTW, is there any homing indication for F/J on G20?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Thu, 03 November 2016, 17:05:53
However, my fear is lack of flexibility means too many folks would be forced to buy keycaps they won't never use (like the entire collection of mods, including alternate layout mods). So here's sorta what I'm pondering:

Semiotic Symbols (all)
Base Mods (w/ spacebar) - combined with the above you have enough to cover any 60% or smaller board.
Top Rows (F- and numrow keys) - combined with the above you have enough to cover TKL and smaller.
Numpad - combined with the above you have enough to cover any full-size board.
ErgoDox - keys specific to the unusual needs of an ErgoDox.
Alternate Extras - basically everything else, which provides for all the other alternate layouts.

Folks wanting 60%-ish boards with a numrow will need the first three kits, and would end up with F-row keys they don't need, but there may be no other way to make those top row keys an optional buy-in and affordable at the same time.

All I want are the expanded graphics you talked about in the OP. I'm going with a custom layout on an Atomic, so I have no use for the number or function row, but am very excited about the idea of filling the full board with 75 different 1u graphics keys, short of the numpad which I'll also need and use.

So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 19:09:19
So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.

Are you sure you mean NumLock? That key from the numpad goes with the top row of the numpad (which includes the "Agaric Fly" key) and is in the EDS panel motif rather than the Semiotic symbol motif.

But yes, the idea would be that a Semiotic Symbols kit would have all the symbols in the Semiotic symbol style, even the ones shown on the navcluster.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 03 November 2016, 20:46:42
 
I really love the abstract-future-tech look of this set, and I agree that it fits the G20 profile well.  I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.  They just look too "heavy".  Right now when you look at the keys you can see the division of alphas and modifiers... I'd want it to be extra crazy, like not even being able to distinguish between the two!  CHAOS!  BTW, is there any homing indication for F/J on G20?

There is a certain attractive purity in the nearly all-semiotic Planck render, but I enjoy having both the semiotic and the EDS keys and do not find the juxtaposition jarring but, rather, more representative of the theme of the Nostromo and the Alien universe in general.

edit:  I should add that I intend to buy this set regardless of whether the EDS caps are a part of it.


Just an observation: the anticipated low demand for this highly unusual design would likely result in:

1. Kits that are a little on the expensive side (unless SP decides to offer dramatically low price tiers just to promote the G20 family).

2. A keycap set that is a collector's item right from the get go.


G20's uniform profile means that fewer keys are necessary to cover a wide range of keyboard layouts.  G20 is PMK's cheapest family of caps by a good margin.  I think both of these factors will contribute to the ability to make a set that stays true to your vision and is relatively affordable.  And, I assume dye-sub is a cheaper process than double-shot plastic injection.  But I have no experience in organizing a group buy and don't know how much the degree of consumer demand will affect prices for this set. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 21:46:58
The price of a kit is a function of two factors:

1. The number of keys in the kit.
2. The number of kits manufactured.

The more keys there are in a kit, the lower the per-key cost is. That is of course balanced by the fact that there are more keys in the kit. That's why a small kit still seems to cost a lot; even though there aren't that many keys in it, the per-key cost is disproportionately high.

And obviously, the more kits are made, the lower the overall unit cost. That's why you see drastically difference prices for MOQs of 25, 50, 100, and so on.

So we could have a few large-ish kits and they would be reasonable from a per-key cost basis, but still expensive because each kit has so many keys. Or we could have lots of little kits that seem less expensive on the surface of it, but then you find the cost of buying all the kits you need to fill out a board ends up higher than if you just bought two or three large kits (and ended up with keys you didn't use).

Unfortunately, I think this set might struggle to attract 100 buyers, and so we would not enjoy the price breaks that go with that MOQ tier.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 03 November 2016, 22:15:04
I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:39:33
So would the Semiotic Symbols set include even the NumLock and navcluster symbols? Because that would be a huge selling point to me, not having to buy a modifier, num-row and fn-row kit just to get a few more symbols.

Are you sure you mean NumLock? That key from the numpad goes with the top row of the numpad (which includes the "Agaric Fly" key) and is in the EDS panel motif rather than the Semiotic symbol motif.

But yes, the idea would be that a Semiotic Symbols kit would have all the symbols in the Semiotic symbol style, even the ones shown on the navcluster.

Oh whoops, anything but that. I was talking about ScrollLock, Print and Pause. Either way, that's exactly what I wanted to hear! A perfect set for an ortholinear keyboard with that premise, I love it!

The price of a kit is a function of two factors:

1. The number of keys in the kit.
2. The number of kits manufactured.

The more keys there are in a kit, the lower the per-key cost is. That is of course balanced by the fact that there are more keys in the kit. That's why a small kit still seems to cost a lot; even though there aren't that many keys in it, the per-key cost is disproportionately high.

And obviously, the more kits are made, the lower the overall unit cost. That's why you see drastically difference prices for MOQs of 25, 50, 100, and so on.

So we could have a few large-ish kits and they would be reasonable from a per-key cost basis, but still expensive because each kit has so many keys. Or we could have lots of little kits that seem less expensive on the surface of it, but then you find the cost of buying all the kits you need to fill out a board ends up higher than if you just bought two or three large kits (and ended up with keys you didn't use).

Unfortunately, I think this set might struggle to attract 100 buyers, and so we would not enjoy the price breaks that go with that MOQ tier.

I'd rather have a few too many keys for a bit less money than just the right amount of keys for a little higher cost.

What about running the whole keyset as one huge set instead of splitting it up? That would guarantee the lowest cost for most people. On the other hand, the smaller your board, the less you'd profit from this, but it seems that for a set with expectations below 100 pcs. this is a viable option.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jal on Fri, 04 November 2016, 08:41:36
Absolutely in. I love projects like this.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Arallu on Fri, 04 November 2016, 10:36:41
These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597 (http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597)

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Fri, 04 November 2016, 10:56:18
Definitely in for this one. I agree that a single combined set may not be a bad idea. If orders are expected to be low it could help. I'd also like to see some bumped or dished home keys if possible. I understand not wanting to force any particular design to have the bumps. How about a second set of the arrow keys with bumps on them?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 04 November 2016, 11:28:25
These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597 (http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597)

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488

To be honest, those don't really fit the semiotic aesthetic in my eyes. The inspiration is certainly there, but they are lacking the simplicity and clarity of the semiotic icons. Even the Defrag icon, which is closest to the original style, is too far from the border and doesn't incorporate the radii on that. It just looks slapped on.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Arallu on Fri, 04 November 2016, 11:31:19
These are great, maybe some novelties/ESC keys with Weyland Yutani logos too, or are there copywright issues on those?
http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597 (http://deathbymodding.deviantart.com/art/Rocketdock-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-489769597)

Also, found this looking around, just a base set with icon descriptions, neat!:
http://scotch-and-soda.deviantart.com/art/Alien-Semiotic-Standard-Icons-189883488

To be h
onest, those don't really fit the semiotic aesthetic in my eyes. The inspiration is certainly there, but they are lacking the simplicity and clarity of the semiotic icons. Even the Defrag icon, which is closest to the original style, is too far from the border and doesn't incorporate the radii on that. It just looks slapped on.

Ya, I wasn't implying all those should be considered, just the Weyland-Yutani ones and then only as reference.
There's plenty of Weyland-Yutani logo's out there for reference: https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7 (https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 04 November 2016, 13:20:55
Ya, I wasn't implying all those should be considered, just the Weyland-Yutani ones and then only as reference.
There's plenty of Weyland-Yutani logo's out there for reference: https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7 (https://goo.gl/Y3SiY7)

Oh I see. Sorry if I came off as rude.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Arallu on Fri, 04 November 2016, 14:38:46
No worries, although come on, this could work right? /s  ^-^
(http://i.imgur.com/fmP3rmJ.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Fri, 04 November 2016, 16:59:13
This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Fri, 04 November 2016, 17:09:28
Best of luck navigating the legal barriers (or avoiding them altogether) because I sure as heck would pick up a set of this, even if you have to make some... artistic alterations to scoot around to the realm of safe-to-use.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Arallu on Fri, 04 November 2016, 17:47:30
This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.
Gotcha, totally understand!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Fri, 04 November 2016, 18:27:50
This set is already in somewhat murky territory with regard to copyrights. I await word from 20th Century Fox business relations, but I'm not expecting a response any time this decade. If this set gets made, it will have to do so under the auspices of benign neglect from Fox.

In any event, apart from the D|T, G|H, and r|m tribute keys, I'm not going to make any key that refers to the name of anything (like Weyland-Yutani). I'm also not planning to use any Semiotic symbol that (I feel) Ron Cobb would not have allowed to appear on film.

I hope everyone understands and appreciates the philosophy behind my decision there.

[attachimg=1]

edit: I guess, to avoid misinterpretation, I should explain that I think your design philosophy for this set is spot on and should be the scale by which all requests are measured.


[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: parablol on Fri, 04 November 2016, 23:21:42
I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Could a homing key option be provided? I consider this a keyset for touch typing. Touch typing without homing keys seems impractically challenging.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Sat, 05 November 2016, 10:21:58
I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.

Could a homing key option be provided? I consider this a keyset for touch typing. Touch typing without homing keys seems impractically challenging.

edit:  -1 reading comprehension.  I failed to see that the poster quoted the exact same post that I quoted below, making my comment look snarky.  That was not my intent and I apologize if anyone interpreted this post as being rude. 
More
OP explains his decision in the post quoted below:

I like the numpad and modifiers the best, and I think it's because of the extra whitespace and thin lines.  I wish the alphas shard the same aesthetic.

If I understand you correctly, I think I addressed that sentiment once before, in reply #13.

Also, I believe the G20 family does provide for homing bumps, but I wouldn't apply them here because I don't want to restrict any keys to being "home" keys.


Having established that, if homing keys are an important enough issue for the majority of people who want this set, what about adding a couple blank homing keys to the set?  If someone didn't want to use the homing keys, they would still have the full set of semiotics at their disposal.  Or picking one key to use as homing keys and making three copies of that key: one without a homing nub, and two with a homing nub.  Of course, using them would result in the same symbol appearing 2 or 3 times on the keyboard.  Personally, I'm OK without homing keys on my cobbled together DSA-profile set, and I think I'll be OK without them on the Semiotic set.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Sat, 05 November 2016, 11:12:17
I'm in the camp of Homing Keys. I don't mind that a couple symbols would be "fixed" on the board, I don't see that being a problem of any significance. If they're just additional keys (as derezzed suggested, being copies of a non-homing version) then that gives an option people for who really don't want those symbols in those spots. For whatever reason.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 05 November 2016, 11:12:49
Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Sat, 05 November 2016, 11:14:23
Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

 :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 05 November 2016, 15:19:57
Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

Perfect!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 05 November 2016, 19:49:26
Am I correct in understanding that the ErgoDox only has three sizes of keycaps: 1u, 1.5u, and 2u?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jebbra on Sat, 05 November 2016, 22:00:40
A suggesion, can you make the design on numpad but on the alphas? You know, for a cleaner version overall  ;D

Then it wouldn't be G20 Semiotic, but G20 EDS Panel.  A different set with a different focus.

Not that such a set isn't worth doing, just not by me necessarily. The modifiers draw from the EDS panel out of necessity (i.e., the Semiotic symbols look wrong on anything but 1u keys, IMO), and the numpad does so only because its ortholinear layout makes it feasible (it would be an ugly mess to try and force an intrinsically ortholinear design around staggered alphas). As cool as the EDS panel is (I love it too), that motif was never intended to be the guiding aesthetic of the entire set. Moreover, you'd lose the ability to arrange the alphas however you wish, which I think is an appealing benefit of the Semiotic symbols. Being purely symbolic, they are linguistically uninflected and therefore intrinsically international and function-adaptable.

In fact, the inclusion of the numpad was almost an afterthought; I was primarily inspired to create something for small layouts, not full-size boards, despite my own general preference for them. If you were to put this set on a 60% or smaller board, there would be a Semiotic symbol available for every 1u key you'd need covered.

Just realized EDC and Semiotic is a different subject. I use a planck and the all semiotic symbol on top of it looks too messy for me. How about a special EDC alpha kit fot ortholinear board? With a twist of content like writing E-F instead of only E we can make support multiple layouts at once.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 06 November 2016, 13:20:18
When I do a google search, I see a couple of different layouts for European numpads. Is there one in particular that is the dominant layout?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: josephwilk on Sun, 06 November 2016, 13:58:31
Am I correct in understanding that the ErgoDox only has three sizes of keycaps: 1u, 1.5u, and 2u?

Yes that's right. Example layout of a ergodox: https://github.com/ErgoDox-EZ/docs/blob/master/blank%20keycaps%20layout%20(1).pdf
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Sun, 06 November 2016, 14:31:30
Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys. They are mirror images of each other, and the white portion of the homing disks can either point outward or inward, user's choice, depending on which key is on the left and which is on the right:

(Attachment Link)

That's absolutely perfect, thank you so much!

When I do a google search, I see a couple of different layouts for European numpads. Is there one in particular that is the dominant layout?

If you're talking about the fact that some layouts have a smaller + key and an additional key below that, that's not that common, and I think it's not part of any language defined layout but of apple keyboards. The only other layout that has this that I'm aware of is brazilian. What exact layouts did you find?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 06 November 2016, 15:35:34
Here are the two layouts I found:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41loxsbsSPL._SY300_.jpg)

(http://www.staples-3p.com/s7/is/image/Staples/m000157952_sc7?$splssku$)

Also, I sometimes see a "00" key instead of "000" at the bottom, and a "," instead of a "." (presumably because in Europe, the decimal point and comma are used for the opposite of what they are in the US).
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 06 November 2016, 16:25:51
Alternate layout questions for everyone:

1. Is there ever a need for more than two 1.75u keys (e.g., CapsLock & Shift)?

2. Is there ever a need for more than two 2.25u keys (both of them Shift keys)?

3. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

4. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1.5u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Vigrith on Sun, 06 November 2016, 17:29:44
I don't personally use ISO but I believe ISO UK at least uses 1.25, don't know of any that use 1 or 1.5 (though I guess some ergo layouts like planck probably do).
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 06 November 2016, 23:40:11
Here is the "Extras" kit so far. Consider it a work in progress, of course. Many of the keys satisfy various WhiteFox layouts, which I figure covers a lot of territory. The 2u key is intended to be used as a Planck spacebar, but it could be used in any 2u position, really.

[attachimg=1]

I'm also thinking that the international numpad keys could go in this kit since the ISO UK keys are there.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Mon, 07 November 2016, 03:17:39
Here is the "Extras" kit so far. Consider it a work in progress, of course. Many of the keys satisfy various WhiteFox layouts, which I figure covers a lot of territory. The 2u key is intended to be used as a Planck spacebar, but it could be used in any 2u position, really.

(Attachment Link)

I'm also thinking that the international numpad keys could go in this kit since the ISO UK keys are there.

Looks good!

Alternate layout questions for everyone:

1. Is there ever a need for more than two 1.75u keys (e.g., CapsLock & Shift)?

2. Is there ever a need for more than two 2.25u keys (both of them Shift keys)?

3. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

4. Are there any alternate layouts that make use of 1.5u Shift keys? If so, how many do they use?

3. 1u Shift is used by ortholinear boards (1 or 2, depending on layout) and the Filco Minila Air (http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/uk-majestouch-minila-air-68-key-tactile-action-bluetooth-keyboard.asp). The ISO version even has two 1u Shifts. It also has a 1.75u Ctrl key, but that would be covered by the extras set already.

4. 1.25 Shift is indeed used on ISO keyboards.

Here are the two layouts I found:

Show Image
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41loxsbsSPL._SY300_.jpg)


Show Image
(http://www.staples-3p.com/s7/is/image/Staples/m000157952_sc7?$splssku$)


Also, I sometimes see a "00" key instead of "000" at the bottom, and a "," instead of a "." (presumably because in Europe, the decimal point and comma are used for the opposite of what they are in the US).

That's completely new to me, I don't believe this is part of any European standard. I do support a 1u 0 key that's in line with the numpad aesthetic, I'd be using that. Though I'm not sure how many would find that useful. Some boards like the Kishsaver also have a 1u Pad0, so maybe the demand exists.

Yes, decimal point and comma are swapped here, but I think a normal point in that location would be just fine.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 07 November 2016, 11:58:36
So on an international numpad, when the 1u + key is used, what goes in the other 1u space? If it is a 1u - key, then what goes in place of the 1u - key in the upper right corner? Is there a good image showing a typical international numpad?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Mon, 07 November 2016, 12:39:54
As I said, normally we have a 2u + as well, so the International Standard isn't any different. The Brazilian layout has a . there and a , where the. is normally. Apple keyboards have an additional = key.

So I'm afraid there is no actual resource on this. It's really just a question of alternate layouts for the numpad in general.

EDIT: The Miami Dolch has a pretty good numpad kit in my opinion:

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Mon, 07 November 2016, 13:57:13
As I said, normally we have a 2u + as well, so the International Standard isn't any different. The Brazilian layout has a . there and a , where the. is normally. Apple keyboards have an additional = key.

So I'm afraid there is no actual resource on this. It's really just a question of alternate layouts for the numpad in general.

EDIT: The Miami Dolch has a pretty good numpad kit in my opinion:

That's pretty much perfect in my opinion. Split 0/00 is about the only real deviation I've ever seen in numpads. Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 07 November 2016, 14:01:02
I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 07 November 2016, 15:23:23
Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.

When I get around to the child kit renders, I'll be sure to add a homing 5 to the numpad kit.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: infodroid on Mon, 07 November 2016, 17:08:17
Damn, zslane... You really nailed it with this set! The concept and mockups are outstanding. :thumb:

I've had the Alien keyboard as my desktop wallpaper for some time now. I never thought it might ever become an actual set.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Mon, 07 November 2016, 17:41:44
I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

As I said, either an = symbol, which is useful in excel for example, or a , so you have both the decimal point and thousands comma on the pad.

The four keys above in the Miami Dolch set are supposed to be optionally used on separate keypads like the Leopold 210TP which have 21 keys instead of 17. They're also useful for ortholinear keyboards.

Homing 5 key would be great to add to the Semiotics kit, obviously.

When I get around to the child kit renders, I'll be sure to add a homing 5 to the numpad kit.

Im all in for a homing option on 5, that's a great addition!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 07 November 2016, 18:15:00
I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?
Simple answer: Compact layouts.

Check the numpad area of an G80-1800 (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G80-1800). It uses a 1x "+" with a 1x "-" above it.
Similarly, compact numpads such as the Roadkit (https://thevankeyboards.com/products/roadkit-pre-order) don't always need/have room for a 2x "+" key.

As for the 4 extra keys; Filco Majestouch TenKeyPad (https://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-TenKeyPad-Tactile-Numberpad/dp/B000MGBPNI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422062195&sr=8-1&keywords=filco+keypad) and similar keypads use those for keys like 'Esc', 'Tab', 'Backspace' and '='. But that really depends on the model.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 07 November 2016, 19:22:57
I'm still wondering what people use in combination with the 1u + key in place of the 2u + key? Presumably they don't leave the switch uncovered with no keycap on it.

And what are the four keycaps on top for?

As I said, either an = symbol, which is useful in excel for example, or a , so you have both the decimal point and thousands comma on the pad.

The four keys above in the Miami Dolch set are supposed to be optionally used on separate keypads like the Leopold 210TP which have 21 keys instead of 17. They're also useful for ortholinear keyboards.

It looks like different manufacturers use different keys for the top row on 21-key number pads.

[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]

There may be some overlap between models.  People with 21-key number pads (I'm one of them) may have to compromise when choosing what to put on the top row of their number pads.   Maybe we'll have unused EDS keys from the non-num pad kit (if that's how the kits break down) or maybe we'll have to use a couple of the semiotic keys.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Tue, 08 November 2016, 02:02:09
Here is the latest Extras kit manifest, which now includes two 1u Shift keys and the international numpad keys.

[attachimg=1]

And here are the international numpad keys as they might appear on a numpad. Note that the 1u "+" key and the 1u "other" key are interchangeable in terms of position.

[attachimg=2]

I should have WhiteFox layout renders later this week. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: parablol on Wed, 09 November 2016, 18:20:11
Here is a dedicated matched pair of homing keys.

Pleased to have homing keys as part of this set!  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 10 November 2016, 02:14:48
Here is what I have currently for the ErgoDox kit. I'd like to hear from Ergo users as to whether they would prefer to have this as its own kit, or have these keys added into the Extras kit.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 10 November 2016, 02:16:35
Here are the WhiteFox renders I promised. Note that the 7u spacebar in the Winkeyless layout is a DSA spacebar since the G20 family only has a 6.25u spacebar.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pomk on Thu, 10 November 2016, 02:57:37
Excellent!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ticktwo on Thu, 10 November 2016, 02:59:12
wow! nice one dude :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Thu, 10 November 2016, 04:08:06
Here are the WhiteFox renders I promised. Note that the 7u spacebar in the Winkeyless layout is a DSA spacebar since the G20 family only has a 6.25u spacebar.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Damn that looks amazing.

Here is the latest Extras kit manifest, which now includes two 1u Shift keys and the international numpad keys.

(Attachment Link)

And here are the international numpad keys as they might appear on a numpad. Note that the 1u "+" key and the 1u "other" key are interchangeable in terms of position.

(Attachment Link)

I should have WhiteFox layout renders later this week. Stay tuned!

Love it! Just having this "other" key that fits with the numpad aesthetic is a good solution, and your extras set looks very promising, I could deck out pretty much any board I'd ever want to build with that.

I still think it's a bit of a waste to have a comma-key for the numpad. The whole layout is purely pictograpic, a dot on the comma key is not going to ruin anyone's day. I'd rather get an additional 1u symbol or "other" key than having the comma.

Other than that, I would totally get this set in its current form. I'd only need symbols, numpad and extras to deck out my full-grid atomic, but if alphas are bundled with the symbols to bring the price down for everyone else, I'd probably be fine with that as it allows the set to be reused on different boards later on.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Thu, 10 November 2016, 10:01:52
I figure if we're getting all the mathematics symbols and numbers, the decimal dot/comma kinda has to be there, it would look a little out of place if it was just ignored. Ooh, actually, for international compatibility the legend on that key can include a dot AND a comma, and you can ignore whichever doesn't make sense for your region. :P
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Vigrith on Thu, 10 November 2016, 15:02:18
Renders look sick, Zslane, for real. I'm definitely still in for a set as I said right from the start.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 10 November 2016, 15:28:16
Thanks, Vigrith!  :D

Once I have the kit renders, I'll post all this over on DT. Would anyone be willing to point the reddit crowd over here for me? I imagine we're really going to need to spread the word as much as possible on this in order to accumulate enough votes on PMK to push it into production.

Of course, I will try to negotiate with Melissa on a lower vote threshold to kickstart production on the grounds that the G20 family needs all the help it can get in gaining popularity with the community.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 10 November 2016, 15:34:50
Thanks, Vigrith!  :D

Once I have the kit renders, I'll post all this over on DT. Would anyone be willing to point the reddit crowd over here for me? I imagine we're really going to need to spread the word as much as possible on this in order to accumulate enough votes on PMK to push it into production.

Of course, I will try to negotiate with Melissa on a lower vote threshold to kickstart production on the grounds that the G20 family needs all the help it can get in gaining popularity with the community.

Seem to be a new set a month now at PMK...Maybe it could be the December feature!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: josephwilk on Thu, 10 November 2016, 15:41:00
Here is what I have currently for the ErgoDox kit. I'd like to hear from Ergo users as to whether they would prefer to have this as its own kit, or have these keys added into the Extras kit.

(Attachment Link)

For me I would say it's own kit. Getting very excited about this kit!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jebbra on Thu, 10 November 2016, 20:46:49
Looking good zslane! Surely order a numpad kit, alphas, and mod kit with most 1u  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 10 November 2016, 20:55:11
I don't own an Alps board but I still considered buying a set of cheap Alps keycaps just in case.  I don't own a Topre board but I considered buying a set of sliders for the same reason.  I was curious about DSA keycaps but never had a strong desire to try them until LightCycle came along.  I've considered buying things I might never use because I might have a use for them some time in the future.  I could put a set of G20 caps to immediate use but I was never once curious about G20, never thought about it after discovering it, and never even considered buying a G20 set.  Semiotic put G20 at the top of my list of keyboard-related things that interest me.  I think this set will pique the interest of a lot of people who've never considered G20 before.  That's how top-notch this set's design is. 

Also, I've scoured PMK's website twice now and I still haven't found a page for voting.  Is it something that's only visible when there are sets to vote for?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Fri, 11 November 2016, 01:01:49
Here's an updated ErgoDox kit. I switched two of the 2u keys with new graphics.

[attachimg=1]

Here's an updated Extras kit. Just a small tweak to the ISO Return key, and the addition of the toprow \| key.

[attachimg=2]

The next step will be a high-res orthographic render of all the kits with all the keys. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Fri, 11 November 2016, 02:38:16
The next step will be a high-res orthographic render of all the kits with all the keys. Stay tuned!

been waiting for this  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 11 November 2016, 02:57:51
Here's an updated Extras kit. Just a small tweak to the ISO Return key, and the addition of the toprow \| key.

(Attachment Link)

The next step will be a high-res orthographic render of all the kits with all the keys. Stay tuned!

Oh man, 1u \| is a great addition, that means I can already use this set on my current board and layout.

Also, if you finish the renders, I'd be willing to pop them into an imgur album and post that to /r/mk to give this set a bit of exposure.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Fri, 11 November 2016, 22:00:10
Here are all the keycaps, separated by kit. Note that the \| key appears in both the Topstripe and the Extras kit, but I feel it should only be in one or the other. Which kit should it go in?

[attachimg=1]

Here are some empty keyboards too, scaled to match the size of the keycaps in the render above. I figured this might help folks play around with keycap arrangements.

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ndlu2 on Fri, 11 November 2016, 22:55:59
I don't think signature plastics has a mold for g20 iso enter.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Fri, 11 November 2016, 23:17:43
No, you're totally correct, they don't. The Extras kit would come with the DCS version instead. Better than none at all, I figure.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mogo on Sat, 12 November 2016, 00:21:55
No, you're totally correct, they don't. The Extras kit would come with the DCS version instead. Better than none at all, I figure.

DCS? Or DSA?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 12 November 2016, 00:26:22
They're the same thing.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Sat, 12 November 2016, 07:33:28
Link to reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5ckebj/buying_g20_semiotic/
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: wilarseny on Sat, 12 November 2016, 08:48:33
DCS? Or DSA?

They're the same thing.

No? https://deskthority.net/wiki/Signature_Plastics_DCS_family , http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php. Unless you mean just the iso enter is the same?

Anyway, would love this in anything other than G20. I realize that's half the point for OP, but as someone really into the overall concept, dealbreaker for me.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: japanitrat on Sat, 12 November 2016, 13:44:29
As far as I know, SP has a tolerance of 0.02 inches for edge to edge printing. This set kind of requires the prints to be aligned exactly, though. I would ask them to run a sample first before putting more time into it (set looks pretty defined already)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: MustacheRabbit on Sat, 12 November 2016, 13:50:35
I would be totally in for this set. I am a huge fan of Alien, and even if they end up in G20 profile I would instantly buy out a few sets.

I'd prefer DSA, but the aesthetic for the G20 caps would be so much nicer due to the larger print area.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 12 November 2016, 16:29:57
As far as I know, SP has a tolerance of 0.02 inches for edge to edge printing. This set kind of requires the prints to be aligned exactly, though. I would ask them to run a sample first before putting more time into it (set looks pretty defined already)

Yes, I hear you, japanitrat. I would definitely want to go through a test run or two with SP before allowing it to go into production. They would want to do the same, I'm sure.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 12 November 2016, 16:38:57
Also, I've scoured PMK's website twice now and I still haven't found a page for voting.  Is it something that's only visible when there are sets to vote for?

For some reason they don't seem to link to the voting site from the PMK site. Color me confused.

At any rate, here's a link to the voting site: http://redrokk.pixelprecisionnw.com/ (http://redrokk.pixelprecisionnw.com/)

You will need to create an account at the PMK site and use that to log in to the voting site.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sat, 12 November 2016, 16:48:15
Here is a slightly tweaked update to the full set render. I removed the \| key from the Extras kit, so it only appears in the Topstripe kit now. I also replaced the 1.5u \| key with a new graphic. The previous one remains in the ErgoDox kit, and is exclusive to it.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jebbra on Sat, 12 November 2016, 21:43:00
Ortholinear mods will be lovely. Looking at your render I found the all-symbol planck is too cramped and didn't have place to "breath" like when this set placed on another board. Sure it give planck some special treatment if you look it from the other side, but as the original semiotic/EDS use ortholinear layout too, ortho board will become the closest homage.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Sat, 12 November 2016, 22:00:16
they look great!  ;D

[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

Here is a slightly tweaked update to the full set render. I removed the \| key from the Extras kit, so it only appears in the Topstripe kit now. I also replaced the 1.5u \| key with a new graphic. The previous one remains in the ErgoDox kit, and is exclusive to it.

(Attachment Link)

there are two arrows cluster?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Omnipotent on Sat, 12 November 2016, 23:49:58
Loving the renders. This is looking so awesome!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 13 November 2016, 01:47:53
there are two arrows cluster?

No, that's just my dumb render setup. I need to fix it. Thank you for pointing it out!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: mll8394 on Sun, 13 November 2016, 04:43:43
ooohhh all logos and novelties  :eek: :eek: :eek: Gotta love keysets like this  ;D  :))
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 13 November 2016, 11:19:52
Okay, let's try this again.

[attachimg=1]

And here are the keyboard templates again.

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Sun, 13 November 2016, 12:03:20
Thanks for the link to the voting page.  I'm sad to see some of those legends consigned to 1.5u keys on the Ergodox kit, but I'm sure that Ergodox modifiers with legends, and exclusive legends at that, will make this even more attractive to Ergodox users.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 13 November 2016, 12:10:35
I thought about putting the 1.5u and 2u keycaps from the ErgoDox kit into the Extras kit, but that would fill it with too many keys that folks with alternate layouts simply don't need, and would make that kit needlessly expensive. I figure completists who must have every key, just to have them, will put their collector's hat on and just buy the ErgoDox kit (and maybe give or sell off the few duplicate keys).
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Sun, 13 November 2016, 12:46:49
I'm still going for as many kits as I can afford.    Seeing those vertical keys on the Ergodox kit made me realize that people can change the profile of their layout by flipping the keys.  With only a 3 degree slope, the difference might not be very noticeable but it will be interesting to try it out.  I'm thinking of flipping the alpha and mod keys 180 degrees and keeping the intended orientation on the number row.  Maybe I'll flip the pinky keys 90 degrees.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Sun, 13 November 2016, 14:12:19
It is a shame there is no a proper mold for an ISO key in that profile, I may be in for a set of modifiers if it was available.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Sun, 13 November 2016, 14:33:16
I think it would be great to see a G20 ISO Return. But SP never bothered to invest in an ISO Return key mold for DSA. It is hard to imagine what would motivate them to do so for G20.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Sun, 13 November 2016, 15:13:48
Ortholinear mods will be lovely. Looking at your render I found the all-symbol planck is too cramped and didn't have place to "breath" like when this set placed on another board. Sure it give planck some special treatment if you look it from the other side, but as the original semiotic/EDS use ortholinear layout too, ortho board will become the closest homage.

You could use the 1u mod keys from the Extras set and/or the F-keys from the Toprow set to get your modifiers.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Sun, 13 November 2016, 15:14:12
I think it would be great to see a G20 ISO Return. But SP never bothered to invest in an ISO Return key mold for DSA. It is hard to imagine what would motivate them to do so for G20.


Right, it seems impossible, that is why I use Cherry and GMK sets.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 14 November 2016, 12:45:35
Was showing this set to a friend at work.  He's not a keyboard enthusiast, but he is an amazing artist and sci-fi fan.  I started explaining the concept behind the set and we read up on Ron Cobb and Semiotic Standard. Then we started talking about all of the work that must have gone into these older sets.  I plan to watch the original film again to get hyped some more.  I'll be proud to own something so brilliantly themed and well planned out.

These caps are going on a "Masterkeys Pro S" inside the space white CNC case from norbauer.  This is probably going to be the most amazing thing I've ever had!  :cool:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 14 November 2016, 13:34:41
Thanks for the link to the voting page.

Forget about PMK's voting page and that whole system they tried to establish. It has been abandoned.

Unfortunately, that means there is currently no vehicle for running a group buy.

(I had reached out to another group buy organizer before I even posted here, but got no response, so I'm not optimistic about finding an interested GB agent.)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 14 November 2016, 18:16:57
Major Update: Melissa over at Signature Plastics contacted me and they want to run G20 Semiotics as one of their featured Sets of the Month.

I will be working with them to make sure the graphics fit onto the keycaps properly. Assuming this goes smoothly, you'll all be able to order sets in the (hopefully) not too distant future!

I want to thank everyone for helping out on this!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: temporal on Mon, 14 November 2016, 18:33:32
that's great news! such a unique set, been dying to try out G20 too
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Niomosy on Mon, 14 November 2016, 19:04:39
It's a shame the PMK voting system has died out but at least the set of the month is something.  Glad to see this one's getting picked up for a run by SP.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Vigrith on Mon, 14 November 2016, 19:09:03
Major Update: Melissa over at Signature Plastics contacted me and they want to run G20 Semiotics as one of their featured Sets of the Month.

I will be working with them to make sure the graphics fit onto the keycaps properly. Assuming this goes smoothly, you'll all be able to order sets in the (hopefully) not too distant future!

I want to thank everyone for helping out on this!  :thumb:

Congratulations, Zslane. I'm glad Melissa and the guys are willing to show G20 some love - what a fantastic and unique set to showcase the keycap profile's strengths. Could not be more apt in my opinion.

Looking forward to being able to order a set!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 14 November 2016, 19:11:02
Major Update: Melissa over at Signature Plastics contacted me and they want to run G20 Semiotics as one of their featured Sets of the Month.

I will be working with them to make sure the graphics fit onto the keycaps properly. Assuming this goes smoothly, you'll all be able to order sets in the (hopefully) not too distant future!


Next Sunday, A.D.?

What an emotional roller coaster this thread has turned into.  Will we get to see a test run or is SP confident that their equipment can faithfully produce this set?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 14 November 2016, 19:58:02
That is a good question derezzed.

SP is already aware of the set and what it looks like, so I sort of feel that if they weren't confident that their equipment could faithfully produce it, I don't think they would have proposed making it a Set of the Month. But, of course, we won't know for certain until we try some experiments. It will be an iterative process that will take a little time.

My biggest fear is being told that in order to be "safe" and avoid any chance of sublimating over the top edges, I will have to shrink the graphics to a size smaller than I am happy with. The EDSP graphics I'm not so worried about since they all have lots of open space around their printed elements. It is the Semiotic symbols that present the greatest potential for problems because they all have a red border which must be perfectly centered and not run over any top edge. Depending on the registration tolerances of their sublimation equipment, this could be a thorny issue.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: jebbra on Mon, 14 November 2016, 20:52:49
That's a very good news zslane! Congratulation! I quoted this from Melissa, "The print area on sublimation is essentially the entire top surface of the keycap. Please note that there is a 'margin of error' of 0.020 inches for all sublimated artwork (when printing).". Looks like all you need to worry is the 0.020 margin.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 14 November 2016, 21:16:58
Major Update: Melissa over at Signature Plastics contacted me and they want to run G20 Semiotics as one of their featured Sets of the Month.

I will be working with them to make sure the graphics fit onto the keycaps properly. Assuming this goes smoothly, you'll all be able to order sets in the (hopefully) not too distant future!

I want to thank everyone for helping out on this!  :thumb:

awesome!  :thumb:

That is a good question derezzed.

SP is already aware of the set and what it looks like, so I sort of feel that if they weren't confident that their equipment could faithfully produce it, I don't think they would have proposed making it a Set of the Month. But, of course, we won't know for certain until we try some experiments. It will be an iterative process that will take a little time.

My biggest fear is being told that in order to be "safe" and avoid any chance of sublimating over the top edges, I will have to shrink the graphics to a size smaller than I am happy with. The EDSP graphics I'm not so worried about since they all have lots of open space around their printed elements. It is the Semiotic symbols that present the greatest potential for problems because they all have a red border which must be perfectly centered and not run over any top edge. Depending on the registration tolerances of their sublimation equipment, this could be a thorny issue.


hope they will make some prototypes so we will know how the printing will turn out  :blank:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Mon, 14 November 2016, 22:31:19
Yes, they will definitely be making prototypes for me to examine and approve.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: iFreilicht on Tue, 15 November 2016, 04:49:25
Those are great news, I'm sure you will be able to make it work and look awesome at the same time. I love how SP makes the turn-around on these unique sets so quick. Certainly raises the incentive of designers to try out new stuff like you did.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Tue, 15 November 2016, 08:30:01
I just hope that the main alpha legends come with a fair quality considering how complex they are. It may be some market for a set with alphas that use the same type of legends that the number row has.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Tue, 15 November 2016, 12:39:03
I just hope that the main alpha legends come with a fair quality considering how complex they are.

Agreed. I am optimistic because these graphics are all simple shapes and line work. Perfect for the dye-sublimation process. The only question is that of minimum supportable line thickness since some elements are pretty thin.

It may be some market for a set with alphas that use the same type of legends that the number row has.

There may be, but such a set would just be a conventional set of alphas in the Eurostile font, which I have no interest in (as a user or as a designer). If someone else wants to design such a set/kit, by all means they should. I would not object.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Tue, 15 November 2016, 12:49:15
I just hope that the main alpha legends come with a fair quality considering how complex they are.

Agreed. I am optimistic because these graphics are all simple shapes and line work. Perfect for the dye-sublimation process. The only question is that of minimum supportable line thickness since some elements are pretty thin.

It may be some market for a set with alphas that use the same type of legends that the number row has.

There may be, but such a set would just be a conventional set of alphas in the Eurostile font, which I have no interest in (as a user or as a designer). If someone else wants to design such a set/kit, by all means they should. I would not object.


There is no need to design one; because, there are alphas available at PMK that can be paired with these mods, if they were available separately.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Tue, 15 November 2016, 12:58:17
Okay, maybe I misunderstood you. You said "with the same type of legends that the number row has." The type(face) used on the Topstripe keys is Eurostile, and they have border graphics too. The stock G20 keycaps available from SP would have neither of these features, but maybe they would be an acceptable compromise for folks who only like the EDSP-based modifiers.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: FuriousGeorge on Tue, 15 November 2016, 14:02:40
Major Update: Melissa over at Signature Plastics contacted me and they want to run G20 Semiotics as one of their featured Sets of the Month.

I will be working with them to make sure the graphics fit onto the keycaps properly. Assuming this goes smoothly, you'll all be able to order sets in the (hopefully) not too distant future!


Next Sunday, A.D.?


Why is there no Like button on this forum for me to hit?  :)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Tue, 15 November 2016, 14:04:25
Okay, maybe I misunderstood you. You said "with the same type of legends that the number row has." The type(face) used on the Topstripe keys is Eurostile, and they have border graphics too. The stock G20 keycaps available from SP would have neither of these features, but maybe they would be an acceptable compromise for folks who only like the EDSP-based modifiers.


You understood it perfectly; however, the mods can be paired with other alphas in the same profile, it is not the same, of course.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Tue, 15 November 2016, 21:42:44
G20 blanks + Sharpie markers = problem solved   ;)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Wed, 16 November 2016, 10:08:05
G20 blanks + Sharpie markers = problem solved   ;)


LOL, a new breed of artisan's key caps?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: zslane on Thu, 17 November 2016, 21:38:06
Here are the first keycap samples derived from the graphics I sent to SP.

[attachimg=1]

I am exploring the feasibility of enlarging the symbols about 10%, but if doing so presents problems then what you see in that photo is what they will look like. I'm pleased to see that they look exactly as I envisioned them, pretty much right off the bat.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: Arallu on Thu, 17 November 2016, 21:51:40
Great news! They look excellent.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Thu, 17 November 2016, 21:54:19
Far better than I thought, I just hope the large keys do not get warped as the Granites did.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 17 November 2016, 22:26:00
Here are the first keycap samples derived from the graphics I sent to SP.

(Attachment Link)

I am exploring the feasibility of enlarging the symbols about 10%, but if doing so presents problems then what you see in that photo is what they will look like. I'm pleased to see that they look exactly as I envisioned them, pretty much right off the bat.

I think the legend on the "radioactive" key needs to be rotated 180 degrees. 

It looks like the flat surface of a 1u G20 key cap is about 12mm square.  A 10% increase might be too much.  Given SP's tolerances, even a 5% increase might not be feasible.  It's difficult to be certain, with only a photo for reference.  But if you can make it work, awesome.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 17 November 2016, 22:49:29
They may not have been diligent about how the sloped side was oriented when printing off these prototypes. However, I will be very strict about this and will make sure they get it right in the end.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: derezzed on Thu, 17 November 2016, 23:15:13
I was being a smartdumb-ass about the legend.  It's hard to tell from the angle of the photo if the legends are oriented correctly, but if that 1 legend is rotated 180 degrees, it will look the same as it does now.  The colors look really good on the samples.  It's difficult to tell from the photo but it appears that the texture of the caps gives the legends a style that suggests the original hand-drawn designs by Ron Cobb.  For me, this brings up a host of associations with sci-fi art from the 80s, specifically the art in Heavy Metal magazine.  If the legends appear that way on the actual keys (and not just in the image), that makes them just as appealing to me, if not more so, than the legends as they appear in the renders.  Either way, this design wins on so many levels.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 17 November 2016, 23:23:12
Far better than I thought, I just hope the large keys do not get warped as the Granites did.

Do you mean the bow tie effect where it curves in at the middle on the top an bottom edges?  I have 3 sets of PBT caps from SP and they all have that warp to some extent.  Sometimes it's very slight, so let's hope for the best.  It looks like the shift modifier has a bit of curve to it, but certainly nothing deal breaking. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 17 November 2016, 23:23:51
I asked Melissa about the texture of G20 keycaps, since I had never used them before, and this is what she said:

Quote
G20's are slightly less textured than our DSA keys, but definitely have more texture than SA.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic
Post by: ideus on Thu, 17 November 2016, 23:52:38
Far better than I thought, I just hope the large keys do not get warped as the Granites did.

Do you mean the bow tie effect where it curves in at the middle on the top an bottom edges?  I have 3 sets of PBT caps from SP and they all have that warp to some extent.  Sometimes it's very slight, so let's hope for the best.  It looks like the shift modifier has a bit of curve to it, but certainly nothing deal breaking.


Yes, that is what I referred to. That was the main reason I let my Granite sets to go; while, a single isolated key does not look that bad, when you put them in a board the opposite bending effects of two adjacent keys make the gaps between rows to look sinusoidal, they look just too ugly to be ignored. Well, that is just me, I suppose most people do not care about it, but I prefer the perfectly straight gaps of my OG Cherry set. I know, I am just too picky, but who is not picky with a set the cost over one hundred dollars.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 00:21:40
You have every right to be picky, in any way that suits you, ideus. No hard feelings here.

I am too picky in that I refuse to type on cylindrical keycaps, no matter how well made they are. I'm almost neurotic about it. We're all weird in our own way, I suppose.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Fri, 18 November 2016, 01:07:56
Samples looks very very good. This will be my 1st G20 :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: ndlu2 on Fri, 18 November 2016, 10:29:02
I have a set of g20 keycaps and there is a little bit of warping on the keys
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: JaccoW on Fri, 18 November 2016, 14:48:08
Here are the first keycap samples derived from the graphics I sent to SP.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/WNp6Y6h.png)


I am exploring the feasibility of enlarging the symbols about 10%, but if doing so presents problems then what you see in that photo is what they will look like. I'm pleased to see that they look exactly as I envisioned them, pretty much right off the bat.
That looks amazing.  :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Fri, 18 November 2016, 14:57:43
I must have this!  :-X
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dsaf on Fri, 18 November 2016, 16:40:00
So, will the plastic be translucent like in the movie?

(http://i.imgur.com/HdvUSxS.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Fri, 18 November 2016, 17:07:56
Are there any options for finish like glossy, semi-matte, matte?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 17:54:59
So, will the plastic be translucent like in the movie?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/HdvUSxS.jpg)


(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/36/36280c9567df34780f33286ecfdae1bc0874eaf22dfa5dbdef092feeaba8144a.jpg)

(No, G20 keycaps are not translucent.)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 17:55:53
Are there any options for finish like glossy, semi-matte, matte?

I suspect not. I believe G20 has only one finish option, which is somewhere between SA and DSA in terms of texture.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 18 November 2016, 17:57:39
So, will the plastic be translucent like in the movie?

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/HdvUSxS.jpg)


White PBT will probably have a bit of shine through at max brightness, but no, these are not translucent caps
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: PollandAkuma on Fri, 18 November 2016, 18:40:38
Oh god, this well be great!

A question, does it include 2 1.5 keys anywhere? I'd like to use it with my (future) atreus... And how much will the kits be?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 19:15:40
Oh god, this well be great!

A question, does it include 2 1.5 keys anywhere? I'd like to use it with my (future) atreus... And how much will the kits be?

For 1.5u keys there are the following:
I think you'll be able to find enough keycaps to cover all your bases, especially if you splurge for the ERGODOX kit and raid it for 1.5u and 2u keycaps.

I have no idea what kit pricing will be like. I guess we'll all find out together once the set appears on PMK's webstore.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: PollandAkuma on Fri, 18 November 2016, 19:58:04
Oh god, this well be great!

A question, does it include 2 1.5 keys anywhere? I'd like to use it with my (future) atreus... And how much will the kits be?

For 1.5u keys there are the following:
  • 1.5u x 2 in MODS kit (intended for Tab and |\ key positions on an ANSI layout).
  • 1.5u x5 in EXTRAS kit. One of them is the "Backspace" graphic from the MODS kit, but in 1.5u form. The other four duplicate the graphics of the bottom row modifiers (intended for Winkeyless layouts).
  • 1.5u x 12 in ERGODOX kit. Three of them duplicate graphics from the MODS kit, but in 1.5u form. Four of them duplicate the bottom row modifiers, as in the EXTRAS kit. The remaining five are unique graphics and only appear in the ERGODOX kit.
I think you'll be able to find enough keycaps to cover all your bases, especially if you splurge for the ERGODOX kit and raid it for 1.5u and 2u keycaps.

I have no idea what kit pricing will be like. I guess we'll all find out together once the set appears on PMK's webstore.

Wow, cool! This'll be so rad... time to sell my kidneys lmao
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 20:33:29
Apart from maybe some Atomic layouts which need, like, 80+ unique 1u keycaps, this set will cover pretty much any keyboard out there. Sure, some really strange layouts might require you to buy an odd blank or two separately from SP (like if someone needs a third 2.75u keycap or something), but I like the idea that I can buy one set, and with its 150 keycaps cover anything I am ever likely to type on.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Fri, 18 November 2016, 20:35:19
HUGE CONGRATS ZSLANE! I'm so excited to see real prototypes!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 18 November 2016, 20:43:03
Thanks, mogo!

I hope they meet everyone's expectations.  :thumb:

If I remember correctly, someone here let the reddit folks know about this, right? I want to make sure they don't miss out on it when it eventually goes up on PMK's webstore.

I put the word out on DT yesterday, and so far, only crickets. #weird
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 22 November 2016, 20:02:53
Thanks, mogo!

I hope they meet everyone's expectations.  :thumb:

If I remember correctly, someone here let the reddit folks know about this, right? I want to make sure they don't miss out on it when it eventually goes up on PMK's webstore.

I put the word out on DT yesterday, and so far, only crickets. #weird

Looks like a Reddit thread went up ~10 days back or so.  Another will likely be needed once the buy goes live for those actually purchasing given the way Reddit's thread system works.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: ideus on Tue, 22 November 2016, 21:14:44
You have every right to be picky, in any way that suits you, ideus. No hard feelings here.

I am too picky in that I refuse to type on cylindrical keycaps, no matter how well made they are. I'm almost neurotic about it. We're all weird in our own way, I suppose.


I tried very hard to like the Granite set, I bought a couple of sets, also I bought most of the small kits; however, I was always a bit frustrated by seeing at those irregular gaps between the large keys. I used them for over a year, but again, I just cannot tolerate them. If that is to be picky, well, I suppose I am. I touch type, so I do not need to see at my keys to type, but I really like to stare at the keyboard from time to time, and those gaps were just too obvious to tolerate. I just hope this nice design and the type of keycaps do not get warped at the dye sub process.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: iFreilicht on Mon, 28 November 2016, 04:59:44
Apart from maybe some Atomic layouts which need, like, 80+ unique 1u keycaps, this set will cover pretty much any keyboard out there. Sure, some really strange layouts might require you to buy an odd blank or two separately from SP (like if someone needs a third 2.75u keycap or something), but I like the idea that I can buy one set, and with its 150 keycaps cover anything I am ever likely to type on.

That's actually exactly what I intend to use it for. Full-Grid Atomic has 75 1u keys, so you only need Symbols+Topstripe to deck it out completely. I'll probably add Numpad to that if I can afford it.

If I remember correctly, someone here let the reddit folks know about this, right? I want to make sure they don't miss out on it when it eventually goes up on PMK's webstore.

That was me :) I'll cartainly post there again once it's on PMK.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 28 November 2016, 14:22:16
I've added this one to my bookmarks.  One of these days I might not get a 404 :)

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/g20-semiotic-keycap-set/
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 28 November 2016, 14:43:50
The set is still going through the prototype stage. I haven't yet settled on a size for the graphics I am ready to approve as final. SP makes a sample, emails me a photo, and then I ask for a different size, etc. Currently I have only seen the first sample (the same one I posted earlier). I await the next size iteration from them.

Once we have decided on the final size of all the graphics, SP has to make a full set and send it to me so I can make sure that the graphics on every key are positioned properly and don't have any color issues. If there are any problems, then fixes must be implemented (either in my graphics files or in their dyesub settings), and we try again. When I get a complete set that I am happy with, then SP can put it up for sale.

This sort of thing is (typically) a time-consuming, iterative process. Let's also not forget that G20 Semiotic is not the only keyset SP is working on right now; we only get a modest slice of their available time.

With the Christmas holidays approaching, I expect G20 Semiotic to be ready no sooner than January.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 28 November 2016, 14:52:15
Thanks for the update!  Still excited to see it finished.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: derezzed on Wed, 30 November 2016, 21:57:30
[attachimg=1]

I have a feeling that 2017 is going to be a year of hardship for the budget-minded keyboard enthusiast and for those who lack patience.  So many good sets are in the pipeline and the production backlog seems to keep growing. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 30 November 2016, 22:38:20
(Attachment Link)

I have a feeling that 2017 is going to be a year of hardship for the budget-minded keyboard enthusiast and for those who lack patience.  So many good sets are in the pipeline and the production backlog seems to keep growing.

I've already blown a grand on boards and keys this year, don't tell me next year will be worse...
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sun, 11 December 2016, 23:16:42
G20 Semiotic ErgoDox:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 11 December 2016, 23:35:50
G20 Semiotic ErgoDox:

(Attachment Link)

Fantastic.  I've never even considered an ergodox build, but man, that's amazing.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: derezzed on Mon, 12 December 2016, 00:08:09
G20 Semiotic ErgoDox:

(Attachment Link)

That looks amazing.  I feel like I would have to wear a uniform to use that keyboard.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: iFreilicht on Thu, 15 December 2016, 08:17:28
G20 Semiotic ErgoDox:

(Attachment Link)

So damn nice. I posted (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5ihpth/photos_g20_semiotic_ergodox/) that pic to reddit for exposure ;)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Thu, 15 December 2016, 08:48:03
So many good sets are in the pipeline and the production backlog seems to keep growing. 

It will be interesting to see what the breaking point is at Signature Plastics.  Will they add capacity when earliest delivery is 12/18/24 months away?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: elfick on Thu, 15 December 2016, 08:52:02
G20 Semiotic ErgoDox:

(Attachment Link)

Fantastic.  I've never even considered an ergodox build, but man, that's amazing.
Agreed. It's like the ergodox was designed to wear G20 Semiotic.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: MustacheRabbit on Thu, 15 December 2016, 22:02:24
I just wanting to chime in and say that I am eagerly awaiting this to be available. Thank you for taking enough care in this project to prototype as you have been. That creates great confidence in my mind that this set will not require the amount of headache on my behalf when compared to things like Danger Zone (where I still don't have all the corrected keys).

The only question pending in my mind is: "How many keyboards do I want to sport this set?"
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Thu, 15 December 2016, 22:30:04
Will any of the keys have homing nubs on them?

Will SP provide replacements if the larger keys are warped?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Fri, 16 December 2016, 00:19:32
Is a new vertical 1.5u keycap shape going to be made for the ErgoDox kit? That's the only one that's needed to enable G20 to cover all the keyboards supported by this set with properly-shaped keycaps.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 16 December 2016, 04:54:04
Will any of the keys have homing nubs on them?

Yes, these two, mentioned here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85525.msg2297231#msg2297231).

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=85525.0;attach=152107;image)

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: elfick on Fri, 16 December 2016, 10:40:48
Will any of the keys have homing nubs on them?

Yes, these two, mentioned here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85525.msg2297231#msg2297231).

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=85525.0;attach=152107;image)

Needs nipples instead of bars to both make it multi-directional and complete the "boob".  :p
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 December 2016, 12:23:39
Is a new vertical 1.5u keycap shape going to be made for the ErgoDox kit? That's the only one that's needed to enable G20 to cover all the keyboards supported by this set with properly-shaped keycaps.

You bring up an interesting issue.

I just assumed that the vertical 2u keys (in the numpad, for instance) were normal 2u keys rotated 90 degrees, but you're saying they are special 2u molds? If so, then as far as I know, the 1.5u vertical keys (for the ErgoDox kit) won't have the same sort of dedicated vertical mold. They will be horizontal 1.5u keys that you'll have to rotate to put into place.

But this means I have to speak to Melissa and make sure that the vertical 2u keys use the vertical 2u mold!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Fri, 16 December 2016, 12:27:50
But this means I have to speak to Melissa and make sure that the vertical 2u keys use the vertical 2u mold!

Please also ask her about a warping warranty.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Fri, 16 December 2016, 12:29:11
Is a new vertical 1.5u keycap shape going to be made for the ErgoDox kit? That's the only one that's needed to enable G20 to cover all the keyboards supported by this set with properly-shaped keycaps.

You bring up an interesting issue.

I just assumed that the vertical 2u keys (in the numpad, for instance) were normal 2u keys rotated 90 degrees, but you're saying they are special 2u molds? If so, then as far as I know, the 1.5u vertical keys (for the ErgoDox kit) won't have the same sort of dedicated vertical mold. They will be horizontal 1.5u keys that you'll have to rotate to put into place.

But this means I have to speak to Melissa and make sure that the vertical 2u keys use the vertical 2u mold!
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 December 2016, 12:52:23
I can tell you right now that SP will not spend money on new molds just for this set. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to be making new G20 molds for some time to come. There simply isn't the demand for them. And even if there was, I'm sure that a 7u spacebar mold and an ISO return key mold would come long before a vertical 1.5u mold.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Fri, 16 December 2016, 14:36:27
I can tell you right now that SP will not spend money on new molds just for this set. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to be making new G20 molds for some time to come. There simply isn't the demand for them. And even if there was, I'm sure that a 7u spacebar mold and an ISO return key mold would come long before a vertical 1.5u mold.
You're probably right, but that doesn't stop you from bringing it up. There's no harm in letting them know that it's something the community would prefer to have.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Fri, 16 December 2016, 15:05:19
I can tell you right now that SP will not spend money on new molds just for this set. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to be making new G20 molds for some time to come. There simply isn't the demand for them. And even if there was, I'm sure that a 7u spacebar mold and an ISO return key mold would come long before a vertical 1.5u mold.
You're probably right, but that doesn't stop you from bringing it up. There's no harm in letting them know that it's something the community would prefer to have.

Signature Plastics doesn't really need to do anything right now.  They're quite literally printing money with the molds they already have.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Fri, 16 December 2016, 15:49:13
I can tell you right now that SP will not spend money on new molds just for this set. In fact, I wouldn't expect them to be making new G20 molds for some time to come. There simply isn't the demand for them. And even if there was, I'm sure that a 7u spacebar mold and an ISO return key mold would come long before a vertical 1.5u mold.
You're probably right, but that doesn't stop you from bringing it up. There's no harm in letting them know that it's something the community would prefer to have.

Signature Plastics doesn't really need to do anything right now.  They're quite literally printing money with the molds they already have.
That may very well be the way SP sees it, but just one look at this thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76674.0) will show you just how much the community appreciates proper keycap shapes.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 December 2016, 16:01:55
Well, sure, but that's because 99.9% of keyboards need those Shift keys, and so the hew and cry over the lack of R4 molds was understandably deafening, so to speak. The hew and cry over the lack of ISO return and vertical 1.5u keycaps for G20 is so faint as to be nearly imperceptible by comparison. It is little wonder that SP doesn't make either much of a priority.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Fri, 16 December 2016, 16:12:33
Well, sure, but that's because 99.9% of keyboards need those Shift keys, and so the hew and cry over the lack of R4 molds was understandably deafening, so to speak. The hew and cry over the lack of ISO return and vertical 1.5u keycaps for G20 is so faint as to be nearly imperceptible by comparison. It is little wonder that SP doesn't make either much of a priority.
The problem is that SP probably doesn't even know that G20 is missing a vertical 1.5u shape, which is not the case with the others you mentioned. You, as the designer of the first custom G20 set, are in a perfect position to change that.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 December 2016, 16:18:35
I definitely intend to bring it to their attention.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: MustacheRabbit on Fri, 16 December 2016, 22:28:40
On the topic of molds and homing keys, do we know if G20 caps have scoops available? I have come to prefer them leagues beyond bars or nipples, and I think they would compliment those homing key designs rather nicely if they exist.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 December 2016, 23:24:00
The G20 family is strictly a flat top style. There is no top curvature to any G20 keycap, period. Homing bumps are the only option.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Mon, 19 December 2016, 21:33:10
The G20 family is strictly a flat top style. There is no top curvature to any G20 keycap, period. Homing bumps are the only option.

Are you positive on that? I've been seeing these divot-looking blanks in some peoples crap bags
(https://i.imgur.com/kWQlfUN.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 19 December 2016, 21:37:52
I have no idea what those are, but Signature Plastics' spec sheet for the G20 family only lists homing bump and homing bar as options, not deepdish.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Mon, 19 December 2016, 21:55:48
I have no idea what those are, but Signature Plastics' spec sheet for the G20 family only lists homing bump and homing bar as options, not deepdish.
Check out this page (http://keycapsdirect.com/esports.php). Could the dished top surface that it mentions have been made?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 19 December 2016, 22:02:55
Quote
Tooling for a dished top surface [...] has been delayed.

so the "dished top" will be available in the future?
some people would prefer that but as for me, for this specific keyset, I disagree about the "dished top", homing bump/bar please!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 19 December 2016, 22:29:58
Don't worry. Even if it does exist, I won't use the "dish top" variant for the same reason I didn't use DSA.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 20 December 2016, 12:09:09
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Tue, 20 December 2016, 15:22:19
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Seelen on Tue, 20 December 2016, 15:29:21
This set is extremely strange and wonderful. Always cool to see weird and creative stuff
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: PollandAkuma on Wed, 21 December 2016, 03:23:21
I'm interested to hear positive experiences of g20 profile, and why they found it great, because this set looks tempting  :p
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: JaccoW on Wed, 21 December 2016, 10:59:02
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.
Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Wed, 21 December 2016, 11:10:52
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.
Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.


Matt3o confirmed SP is slammed with work and his response doesn't sound 100% confident if a rerun of SA Nuclear Green will happen in 2017.

Suggesting that they sacrifice resources for a few keys that are likely not even profitable in the first place would be a terrible business decision.  There appears to be competition coming from China (ie: XDA like keys/etc.) so IMHO they should milk the existing molds while they can.

To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Wed, 21 December 2016, 11:18:23
To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.

The resources they are dedicating to this set are pretty minimal at this stage. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably has the lowest priority of all their WIP projects right now. But along with everything else they are doing, SP wants to keep their "Set of the Month" pipeline filled, and this is one of those sets.

Of course, whether or not you feel G20 Semiotic deserves to be an SP Set of the Month is entirely another matter.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: e_l_tang on Wed, 21 December 2016, 11:23:40
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.
Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.
Yes, definitely make sure that the thumb keycaps are made in the vertical 2u shape. However, please ask about making a new vertical 1.5u shape as well. All the keycaps in all the kits of Semiotic will have proper shapes if you do, and it would be good to make sure that Melissa at least knows about the need for them.

So I asked Melissa about this and according to her, there are no vertically oriented molds for G20 at all, not even 2u. So that means that the vertical 2u keys in both the NUMPAD and ERGODOX kits will just be regular horizontal 2u keycaps that will be rotated 90 degrees with the slope on whichever "long" side you prefer. She also said they don't have plans to make vertical molds "any time soon". That does leave open the door for the possibility in the future, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Interesting. I expected more from a company whose main business is keycaps.
Making molds for a largely obscure profile that will cost at least $10000 without a good idea if they will ever recuperate the costs?

Not that weird.


Matt3o confirmed SP is slammed with work and his response doesn't sound 100% confident if a rerun of SA Nuclear Green will happen in 2017.

Suggesting that they sacrifice resources for a few keys that are likely not even profitable in the first place would be a terrible business decision.  There appears to be competition coming from China (ie: XDA like keys/etc.) so IMHO they should milk the existing molds while they can.

To be honest I'm surprised they are dedicating the resources as it is for this bizarre set.
I believe that if one is going to do something, one should do it right, or not do it at all. Since SP ventured to create the G20 profile, I imagined that SP should have at the very least created all of the shapes necessary to cover a completely standard keyboard.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Wed, 21 December 2016, 11:41:15
A horizontal 2u keycap rotated 90 degrees does allow the G20 family to cover a standard full-size keyboard; it just looks a little odd due to the slope (and only in two spots off to the far right where it isn't as noticeable). I'm sure this seemed like a perfectly reasonable cost-savings measure on SP's part.

Let's fact it, perfectionism comes at a cost that people (and businesses) are not always willing to pay. Besides, I'm sure if a big contract landed from some industrial/commercial client who demanded dedicated G20 vertical 2u keycaps, it would happen. However, our mechboard community is not such a client (at least not in terms of having a massive G20-based order ready to place with them).
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 December 2016, 12:14:07
Latest prototypes: top row (original size), middle row 5% enlargement, bottom row 10% enlargement.

[attachimg=1]

I'm told that SP's production department would prefer to go with the original graphics size due to the registration tolerances of their dye-sub printer. Of course, I like the bottom row because they look the most like my CG renders. I hope to check them out first-hand next week when I make my visit up north.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Thu, 22 December 2016, 12:19:14
Looking good!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Thu, 22 December 2016, 12:51:08
Latest prototypes: top row (original size), middle row 5% enlargement, bottom row 10% enlargement.

I'm told that SP's production department would prefer to go with the original graphics size due to the registration tolerances of their dye-sub printer. Of course, I like the bottom row because they look the most like my CG renders. I hope to check them out first-hand next week when I make my visit up north.

I also like the 10% enlarged version, because the graphics extend up to the edges of the key, but not beyond it. However the photo did not show the edges very clearly, so I could be way off.

What are the consequences of going beyond the registration tolerances of their printer?

In other words, what are the increased risks or problems associated with the 10% enlarged version compared to the original version?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Thu, 22 December 2016, 13:18:40
Aaaa! Seeing them as real, not-rendered keys is so exciting!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 December 2016, 16:44:33
The danger of graphics that try to extend out to the very edges of a keycap is that they will appear really off-center if/when the keycaps get positioned slightly off during printing. But if you give yourself a small margin of whitespace, it helps diminish the visual impact of any slight mis-registration. This is what Melissa said in an e-mail:

Quote
We will do those 5 keys at 10% larger so you can see. You are right, there is a big tolerance for registration with sublimation - 0.020 inches is the standard (where with 2 shot it is only 0.005 inches). There are too many variables with the sublimation process to guarantee the image accuracy any more than that.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Thu, 22 December 2016, 17:59:28
I think that any off-center prints may be more noticeable when the legends are small, because 0.020 is a larger proportion of the area than if the graphics were more enlarged. Does this make sense?

So perhaps the best enlargement factor is the one that leaves a border of width 0.020 between the graphics and the edge of the key.

I can't tell which of the samples this might correspond to. But 0.020 is thinner than a stroke of a typical ballpoint pen, it might even be the 10% enlarged one.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 December 2016, 18:04:05
The problem is with the red border. If centering is off a little on the original graphics, the red border will still rest entirely on the top of the keycap. But with the red borders that extend to the very outer edge, being off a little means the red border becomes badly distorted as it falls off the cliff, so to speak, on one or two sides.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Thu, 22 December 2016, 18:15:51
The problem is with the red border. If centering is off a little on the original graphics, the red border will still rest entirely on the top of the keycap. But with the red borders that extend to the very outer edge, being off a little means the red border becomes badly distorted as it falls off the cliff, so to speak, on one or two sides.

So do you think that a gap of width 0.020 inches around the graphics is sufficient, so the even if they are printed 0.020 inches off-center, they will in the worst case only touch the edge? Or do you mean that even a 0.020 gap around the graphics may not be enough, because if the printing is even slightly more off-center than that, and the legends fall of the cliff, they get badly distorted?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 December 2016, 18:44:43
I can only relay what SP tells me. They like the original graphics because there is a comfortable margin with them (more than 0.020"). They don't like the 10% enlarged version because the red borders already start to slide over the sloped edges and into the margin of error. Any mis-registration will look very, very bad with them; essentially every single keycap would have to be perfectly centered to make an acceptable set, and that takes too much luck. Too many keycaps would fail inspection and waste a lot of production time and money.

The 5% enlarged version is an open question as far as I'm concerned. It looks like there is still a 0.020" margin for error there, but that is difficult to say with confidence until I can inspect the samples and discuss it with Melissa and her production team in person.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Thu, 22 December 2016, 19:53:54
:eek:

You get to visit The Factory in person! That's really cool. I hope it goes well!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Thu, 22 December 2016, 21:49:17
zslane can you ask someone at SP (Melissa?) if they will be a guest on Top Clack?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 December 2016, 22:08:14
I apologize in advance for not passing on any messages or requests. I'm not a community liaison, I'm just a designer making a brief visit to say hello and look at some prototypes. I hope everyone understands.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Sat, 24 December 2016, 10:27:23
zslane when this gets going can you create a ad/graphic for us to use in our signatures to help spread the word?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sat, 24 December 2016, 11:44:45
Yes, absolutely!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Sat, 24 December 2016, 12:37:25
Just something I thought of!  Sometimes a keyset GB may have missing/duplicate keys.

I know everyone makes mistakes but SP may want to be extra vigilant packing this particular set.  Otherwise they may have a number of email's saying something like "I'm missing the key that looks like a stick figure falling upside down. The one with a black background and a white body."  :p

And unfortunately that would be one of the easiest symbols to describe!  :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sat, 24 December 2016, 12:40:05
If it will help, I will upload the part codes for all the keycaps so that anyone who needs to can inform SP of incorrect keycaps by the ids that I assigned to each.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Thu, 29 December 2016, 14:18:29
So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Arallu on Thu, 29 December 2016, 15:52:51
Congrats man, glad it's really turning out to meet your expectations!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 29 December 2016, 16:24:58
So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month.  :thumb:

Here, sir.  You deserve it:
[attachimg=3][attachimg=2][attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Thu, 29 December 2016, 16:34:09
I'm ready to push the 'purchase everything' button.  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: graefeln on Thu, 29 December 2016, 16:52:50
So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month.  :thumb:

Sort of happy that it looks Lightcycle might be facing delays; between it, Terminal, and now this, January was looking to be a tough month... So many nice ergodox kits right now.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sat, 31 December 2016, 11:51:15
Here's the G20 Semiotic banner:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Sat, 31 December 2016, 11:59:20
Got it!  Thanks! :D

I've linked mine to this thread until SP has an official listing up.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Sat, 31 December 2016, 18:50:33
Lovely banner! I'll put mine up right away  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 01 January 2017, 23:10:15
Oooh. I would be interested in a symbol-set for the two function rows of my modified G80-11800.
The coffee symbol would go on the Pause key, of course.

I have got a Weyland-Yutani logo keycap in Cherry profile from a previous group buy that I may put in the ~ -key's position.

That looks amazing.  I feel like I would have to wear a uniform to use that keyboard.
BTW, this is how the keyboards looked in Space:1999:
[attachimg=1]
Many of the crew on Space:1999 that worked on special effects and on props worked later on Alien. Both were shot outside London, at Pinewood and Shepperton studios, respectively.

From what I have seen the keyboards in Alien had high-profile caps with spherical surfaces.
Mother's keyboard was also ortholinear, spherical keys, all the same "row" with 2u keys on the two lowest rows.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: brizzzle on Mon, 02 January 2017, 02:54:16
So I was able to personally inspect the prototype samples shown in the last photograph above. They look really good in person, and we settled upon the middle row in terms of graphics size.

The next step is for them to run off a full set and send it to me for inspection and approval. Given how good these early samples have turned out, I don't expect to run into many issues, if any.

Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month.  :thumb:

Hype!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: nevaenuf on Mon, 02 January 2017, 13:47:24
These look great.  I've wanted an excuse to buy G20s, but haven't loved the default sets.  Plus, need a new keyboard to put them on!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: iFreilicht on Mon, 02 January 2017, 17:07:30
Currently, it looks like SP is aiming to make G20 Semiotic the January set of the month.  :thumb:

I guess we'll only get confirmation of that once SP does actually put them up? Don't want to spread the great news too early :D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:08:36
what's the story morning glory?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:18:29
No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:24:25
No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.

I'm ready to buy; but if this were set of the month for February my wallet would not complain. :D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: muten-roshi on Tue, 10 January 2017, 14:32:54
Are there still no ISO-Enters with G20 profile?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 10 January 2017, 15:47:33
No news yet. I am still waiting to receive the first full prototype set for inspection.

I'm ready to buy; but if this were set of the month for February my wallet would not complain. :D

Well, I just received a shipping notice from them, so I think the first full prototype set is on its way to me.

Whether or not the set will make it for January depends entirely on whether or not there are any issues with the prototype caps. If there are, then I will have to make adjustments, send them new graphics, and we try again. Wash, rinse, repeat as necessary.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 10 January 2017, 15:48:19
Are there still no ISO-Enters with G20 profile?

That is correct. And there may never be. The demonstrated demand is simply too low.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: muten-roshi on Tue, 10 January 2017, 15:53:00
Are there still no ISO-Enters with G20 profile?

That is correct. And there may never be. The demonstrated demand is simply too low.
Yeah sad. But G20 are so cheap compared to dsa an sa

Gesendet von meinem E5823 mit Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Tue, 10 January 2017, 16:57:47
We're approaching the mid-point of January and I'm getting antsy for this set to appear on PMK. What boards are y'all gonna put this set on? I feel like I need to pick a board that's weird and beige.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Tue, 10 January 2017, 17:44:17
We're approaching the mid-point of January and I'm getting antsy for this set to appear on PMK. What boards are y'all gonna put this set on? I feel like I need to pick a board that's weird and beige.

These are going on my K-Type; however that hasn't been released yet so if there are delays I won't be mad.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 10 January 2017, 19:17:21
We're approaching the mid-point of January and I'm getting antsy for this set to appear on PMK. What boards are y'all gonna put this set on? I feel like I need to pick a board that's weird and beige.

These are going on my K-Type; however that hasn't been released yet so if there are delays I won't be mad.

First they will probably be on my masterkeys pro s in the space white CNC case from norbauer
Later they will move to the new rama 65 (if the raffle gods smile on me).

But damn, I didn't think about beige.  I might be searching for a new case!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 10 January 2017, 19:25:25
Where do biege cases come from these days?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 10 January 2017, 19:41:38
Where do biege cases come from these days?

Good question. I have an F62 on the way in Spring to scratch that retro beige itch, but I have no idea where to get something chunky and beige for MX.  I mean, you could paint a coolermaster board on the cheap but it needs to be more interesting.  I'm going to have to investigate more.

Maybe a good time to revisit the CLASSIC 60!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829

It definitely needs some added thickness on the bezels.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: derezzed on Tue, 10 January 2017, 20:45:49
Oooh. I would be interested in a symbol-set for the two function rows of my modified G80-11800.
The coffee symbol would go on the Pause key, of course.

I have got a Weyland-Yutani logo keycap in Cherry profile from a previous group buy that I may put in the ~ -key's position.

That looks amazing.  I feel like I would have to wear a uniform to use that keyboard.
BTW, this is how the keyboards looked in Space:1999:
(Attachment Link)
Many of the crew on Space:1999 that worked on special effects and on props worked later on Alien. Both were shot outside London, at Pinewood and Shepperton studios, respectively.

From what I have seen the keyboards in Alien had high-profile caps with spherical surfaces.
Mother's keyboard was also ortholinear, spherical keys, all the same "row" with 2u keys on the two lowest rows.


I didn't know that.  The image of an Ergodox with Semiotic made me think of 1970s sci-fi and that made me think of Space 1999, even though I haven't seen that show since it originally aired.  I've tried finding a top-down photo of Mother's keyboard but all I could find is an image from an Alien video game.

Where do biege cases come from these days?

Good question. I have an F62 on the way in Spring to scratch that retro beige itch, but I have no idea where to get something chunky and beige for MX.  I mean, you could paint a coolermaster board on the cheap but it needs to be more interesting.  I'm going to have to investigate more.

Maybe a good time to revisit the CLASSIC 60!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829

It definitely needs some added thickness on the bezels.

I'm hoping the timing is such that I can get both Semiotic and the Banana Split keyboard. Your Classic 60 case is amazing.  I don't need Bluetooth and I don't like standard 60% layouts, but this case plus the Banana Split PCB and plate plus Semiotic would look awesome. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: kmba on Tue, 10 January 2017, 23:21:22
I'm tossing this on a white case.  Not many beige coming up these days, but some champagne anodized cases though..
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 11 January 2017, 00:20:45
I'm tossing this on a white case.  Not many beige coming up these days, but some champagne anodized cases though..

Darn you, that's a brilliant idea
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Wed, 11 January 2017, 04:49:47
My Planck hipro case (the A case one) will come in beige, hopefully :p
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: PollandAkuma on Wed, 11 January 2017, 06:47:50
My Planck hipro case (the A case one) will come in beige, hopefully :p
I was just about to post in your thread lol...
How's the samples coming along? Can you also kindly link that thread to me because I forgot where it was :(
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: kmba on Wed, 11 January 2017, 08:09:51
I'm tossing this on a white case.  Not many beige coming up these days, but some champagne anodized cases though..

Darn you, that's a brilliant idea

Hah well it's really a decision made through process of elimination. This set is too cool to pass up, but I don't like white keys on silver, black, blue, or basically any other case but beige and white. I have a white on pok3r, and a white numpad so it makes sense!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: smithyithy on Thu, 12 January 2017, 05:19:59
Just dropping by to support this set! I want to build a 'game pad' using a 40% board, probably a Planck as ortho makes more sense I think. I've been looking into G20 too, and this would probably be easier than piecing together a set of SP's normal G20 caps..

This would be an awesome set to own and as an Alien fan it does appeal even more. I'll keep my eye on this thread.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 12 January 2017, 22:21:48
Where do biege cases come from these days?

Good question. I have an F62 on the way in Spring to scratch that retro beige itch, but I have no idea where to get something chunky and beige for MX.  I mean, you could paint a coolermaster board on the cheap but it needs to be more interesting.  I'm going to have to investigate more.

Maybe a good time to revisit the CLASSIC 60!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829)

It definitely needs some added thickness on the bezels.

The manufacturers should start re-igniting the Beige Craze again because I would love to add few dozen more keyboards to my collection having that colour.

We all need some more Beige Love here instead of always being hit by all Black or White keyboards, like a never ending production of Blacks on Whites at Dog Fart Studio's  ::) .
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 12 January 2017, 23:22:16
Where do biege cases come from these days?

Good question. I have an F62 on the way in Spring to scratch that retro beige itch, but I have no idea where to get something chunky and beige for MX.  I mean, you could paint a coolermaster board on the cheap but it needs to be more interesting.  I'm going to have to investigate more.

Maybe a good time to revisit the CLASSIC 60!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=85596.msg2294829#msg2294829)

It definitely needs some added thickness on the bezels.

The manufacturers should start re-igniting the Beige Craze again because I would love to add few dozen more keyboards to my collection having that colour.

We all need some more Beige Love here instead of always being hit by all Black or White keyboards, like a never ending production of Blacks on Whites at Dog Fart Studio's  ::) .

Ha!

I made a thread here :)

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=86931.0
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Fri, 13 January 2017, 02:08:48
As a color, beige really doesn't complement the white keys in this set.

It also doesn't fit in with the futuristic aesthetic.

A white, black, or metallic case would look much better than beige with this set.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 13 January 2017, 03:01:29
As a color, beige really doesn't complement the white keys in this set.

It also doesn't fit in with the futuristic aesthetic.

A white, black, or metallic case would look much better than beige with this set.

I've just choked on my Weeties here, reading your morose description of Beige Coloured Keyboards  >:( .

Any white coloured key-set can be dyed to match the colour of any Beige Keyboard or simply buy lots of PENUMBRA, Nantucket Selectric or any old Cherry Double shot key-sets off Flebay.

Also all Black key-sets work with any Beige keyboard easily, so please quit this monumental discrimination against all that is Beige because it's still beautiful even after all these years.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 January 2017, 11:47:24
Based on the keysets I am acquiring, I have found that I need more white keyboards than black, which is annoying since 99% of keyboards today are black. But I really like the retro aesthetic of a beige case, though I only have one keycap set (Industrial SA) that I think would look best on a beige keyboard. Moreover, I would have gone in on SA 1965 if I'd had a beige board to put it on; I mean, beige/brown is virtually non-existent as a comprehensive color scheme today which is a shame.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 January 2017, 22:52:25
Here are a couple of very quick potatos:

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Fri, 13 January 2017, 22:55:50
Oh daddy...

Do they meet your approval?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 13 January 2017, 23:08:59
Overall they do, yes. I would say they conform to my expectations given what I know about dye-sublimation of inks into PBT plastic.

While there are no errors, I can tell we that are pushing up against the limits of resolvable detail with the dye-sub process. And, of course, the minute variability (~0.020") in the centering of each symbol is apparent when I examine each keycap closely, though it's not really that noticeable once they are all together on a keyboard.

I do want to ask Melissa about the saturation of the blues and greens. The photo makes them look more saturated than they are in real life, but there may not be a whole lot that can be done to improve on that without making them darker, which I don't want to do.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Sat, 14 January 2017, 01:21:17
Here are a couple of very quick potatos:

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

 :thumb:

I wonder if I should get a Filco Hakua to go with this set  :eek: (nah, joking, I can't use full size keyboard anymore)

why do I feel the urge to buy a numpad  :confused:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Sat, 14 January 2017, 05:03:15
It is hard to tell the difference between your 3D renders and the real thing!!

 :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Sat, 14 January 2017, 12:20:15
why do I feel the urge to buy a numpad  :confused:

I'm not even a numpad user and manofinterests/chucklingkumquat hyped up the Ducky Pocket so much I'm thinking of getting one.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sat, 14 January 2017, 12:43:49
I gave SP the go-ahead to run the set. Should be on the PMK store before too long.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Sat, 14 January 2017, 12:45:28
I gave SP the go-ahead to run the set. Should be on the PMK store before too long.

Congrats! :D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: derezzed on Sat, 14 January 2017, 12:57:02
I gave SP the go-ahead to run the set. Should be on the PMK store before too long.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Sat, 14 January 2017, 13:21:30
I gave SP the go-ahead to run the set. Should be on the PMK store before too long.
:thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: bricriu on Sat, 14 January 2017, 23:38:31
So excited! I've been setting aside some money specifically for this.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: kmba on Sun, 15 January 2017, 14:27:28
Don't have a board for these, as I sold the white one I was going to put these on.  Don't really expect to have one anytime soon.  But, I'm 100% going in on this as a full set.  Just too effing cool. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:13:06
Here are a couple of very quick potatos:

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Hhhahhh... it's so dang COOL! Lemme take a guess at that board...KBTalking One?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:20:43
No, it is just a crappy Noppoo I picked up from AliExpress last year.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:23:06
According to the e-mail that I just received from SP, this set is scheduled to launch on PMK next week on Monday the 23rd.

Keep an eye out for it!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:37:48
Is this going to be considered "set of the month" with only a little over a week remaining at that time?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 January 2017, 14:54:27
That's a good question. I didn't think to ask Melissa how long its Set of the Month advertising graphic would be displayed as the main one of the site.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 19 January 2017, 22:46:44
Yep, Jan 23rd:

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/whats-new/

also some more Granite available soon
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 20 January 2017, 02:42:19
what's the inspiration for this design
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Fri, 20 January 2017, 03:44:54
Yep, Jan 23rd:

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/whats-new/

also some more Granite available soon

Anybody know if we can hold our PMK order or not? I like to grab Semiotic ASAP but I need some of Granite too. So holding the Semiotic to combine it with Granite later for the shipping is a godsend.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 20 January 2017, 05:10:56
what's the inspiration for this design

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotic_Standard
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: hervuli on Fri, 20 January 2017, 14:19:56
Yep, Jan 23rd:

http://pimpmykeyboard.com/whats-new/

also some more Granite available soon

Anybody know if we can hold our PMK order or not? I like to grab Semiotic ASAP but I need some of Granite too. So holding the Semiotic to combine it with Granite later for the shipping is a godsend.

I've been able to do this by placing an order and specifying that I want it held so I can add future items to it. They just ask that you reference the original order number when you place the second one.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 20 January 2017, 21:26:10
Just got this in my email.  Congrats to zslane on this project.  I hope it will be a big success
SP is upping their game.  Maybe one of these days they can up their production ability too! :p


The email:
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 20 January 2017, 21:32:49
Just be glad we still get more of Ron Cobb's work available to us, for purchase.

The level of detail he goes through to make the film more realistic, helps to accentuate the whole Alien franchise.

Without him dare I say it, would be another boring Sci-Fi horror with no depth whatsoever.

Shall Lock and Load up on this G20 set when it rolls out for us addicts  :thumb: .
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 21 January 2017, 01:23:56
It's up. Says "Out of Stock", but at least you can see the sets and pricing.

https://pimpmykeyboard.com/g20-semiotic-keycap-set/
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Sat, 21 January 2017, 14:23:55
It's up. Says "Out of Stock", but at least you can see the sets and pricing.

https://pimpmykeyboard.com/g20-semiotic-keycap-set/
WELP. Looks like my wallet's going to have to steel itself for a $116 gutpunch.  :p

Also, reading through the two articles was fascinating, I loved the breakdown of typography through the whole movie.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sun, 22 January 2017, 11:59:37
Ron Cobb and Simon Deering did some really lovely work for the movies. This set is in reverent honor of their creative genius.

As I've said before, I think this set will become a collector's item in time. It will probably take quite a while to sell out of its production run simply because I think the audience for the set is so small. But that also means it'll probably never get run again.

So now's your chance! Don't miss out!  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: sems on Sun, 22 January 2017, 13:39:53
Whoa! I can fit my Atreus with just using symbols set!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: dante on Mon, 23 January 2017, 07:57:55
It's the 23rd and still out of stock.

I'm not sure how this can be "set of the month" with only 9 days remaining...
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 23 January 2017, 08:17:43
It's the 23rd and still out of stock.

I'm not sure how this can be "set of the month" with only 9 days remaining...
Don't forget the difference in time zones. SP isn't awake yet. :P
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Mon, 23 January 2017, 09:17:47
A bit less than two hours to go !  :D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 23 January 2017, 10:27:41
my paycheck is late  :'(
hope I'm not too late  :'(
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: infodroid on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:12:41
It's live!!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: graefeln on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:13:20
It's live!!

...and purchased!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: sems on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:22:16
Ordered!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:46:47
Looks like the TKL setup will cost $116
I will purchase, but I was really hoping it would be more like $80-$90  :(

Their Stealth G20 set is $90, so I suppose a $26 markup for extra dye on the surface isn't terrible.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: sems on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:52:06
Do you know when do they ship?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 23 January 2017, 11:59:00
I've never considered buying a numpad, but I think I might now just to use these!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:39:05
Hey guys, be sure to tell all your /r/mech friends that G20 Semiotic is now taking orders!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: rotane on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:50:23
I cannot believe this coincedence! :eek:

Today (i have to stress this), today i was browsing for Semiotic Standard graphics (since i was thinking about making my own iconset for Windows), and i stumbled upon this thread. I saw these great renders and then, the thing goes on sale? Today!? Well… I have to have this!

However, i seem to be a bit dense on the topic, so maybe one of you can help me out: What exactly does “G20” mean? It’s probably a standard for mechanical keys, right? But what keyboards do they work with? I consulted Dr. Google, but he wasn’t too helpful today, i’m afraid. Any kind of basic insight would be helpful.

Also, when i go to the PMK store page (it’s my first time there), i’d have to add all those options (Symbols, Mods, etc.) for one complete set, correct? (If it’s of any importance, i’m based in Austria, where we have the default German layout.)

Thanks in advance!


Oh and… Hello everyone, and fantastic work, zslane!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:52:08
GOD DAMNIT. Yesterday my car broke down. Mechanics said i'm looking at $380 parts and labor to fix a throttle sensor.
(http://i.giphy.com/3otPotnGlA5FSF2fKw.gif)
Looks like I won't be buying a set after all...
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: kmba on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:54:13
G20 is the keycap profile. They are non-sculped (I.e. every key in every row is the same height), flat top, with a large surface area.  They will fit any MX compatible switch. You would need icons, mods, top row, and numpad for a full size keyboard. The extra set had some extra icons and other sized keys to fill out non standard layouts.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:56:30
I cannot believe this coincedence! :eek:

Today (i have to stress this), today i was browsing for Semiotic Standard graphics (since i was thinking about making my own iconset for Windows), and i stumbled upon this thread. I saw these great renders and then, the thing goes on sale? Today!? Well… I have to have this!

However, i seem to be a bit dense on the topic, so maybe one of you can help me out: What exactly does “G20” mean? It’s probably a standard for mechanical keys, right? But what keyboards do they work with? I consulted Dr. Google, but he wasn’t too helpful today, i’m afraid. Any kind of basic insight would be helpful.

Also, when i go to the PMK store page (it’s my first time there), i’d have to add all those options (Symbols, Mods, etc.) for one complete set, correct? (If it’s of any importance, i’m based in Austria, where we have the default German layout.)

Thanks in advance!


Oh and… Hello everyone, and fantastic work, zslane!

G20 is the name of the profile family for Signature Plastic's flat keys.
(http://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-ktpi93fl/products/101/images/430/G20_5__21571.1434485205.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
Other sets may list their key shape/profile as "SA", "DSA", "OEM", or "Cherry" ("XDA" is a new profile by another manufacturer). As tameone said, they fit MX-compatible switches.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: rotane on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:58:54
Ah, thanks tameone and mogo, i’m a lot wiser now :)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Mon, 23 January 2017, 12:59:47
WTF PMK charge $45 just for the shipping?  :-\
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Mon, 23 January 2017, 13:17:13
And I thought massdrop had expensive shipping. Bought one of everything!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 23 January 2017, 13:28:38
I'm in!  So, they say 2-4 days processing and then ship, right?  Maybe I'll have them for my burfday!

HAPPY BURFDAY TO ME:
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 23 January 2017, 13:55:50
Which kits were you planning to buy, mogo?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: kmba on Mon, 23 January 2017, 14:18:08
$9.25 shipping USPS priority for me, 5 sets. Cheap, no? Assuming no tray.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 23 January 2017, 18:14:33
I usually get tonnes of emails pushing me to buy this or that BUT this one from SP had me racing to their site and placing an order.

Looking forward to this one because this amount of dye sub love has to happen to at least four keyboards in my possession  8) .

Thanks zslane for keeping Ron Cobb alive, he deserves praise and this key-set makes sure his legacy lives on in front of people for decades ahead.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 23 January 2017, 18:20:32
GOD DAMNIT. Yesterday my car broke down. Mechanics said i'm looking at $380 parts and labor to fix a throttle sensor.

That is why I still keep older cars from 1970 to 1986.  No integration of electronics with the engines or transmissions, that is why all my vehicles always run under any circumstance.

Newer garbage gets fixed at our workshops and it keeps us in business 24/7, thank gawd for easy money  :thumb: .
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Mon, 23 January 2017, 19:09:28
ordered:

Symbols + Topstripe + Mods + Extra = $126

 :D

$9.25 shipping USPS priority for me, 5 sets. Cheap, no? Assuming no tray.

yes, last time I bought a G20 Stealth set, there is no tray too, but that will not be a problem.  :p

GOD DAMNIT. Yesterday my car broke down. Mechanics said i'm looking at $380 parts and labor to fix a throttle sensor.
Show Image
(http://i.giphy.com/3otPotnGlA5FSF2fKw.gif)

Looks like I won't be buying a set after all...

dat timing...  :(
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Mon, 23 January 2017, 21:36:52
That is why I still keep older cars from 1970 to 1986.  No integration of electronics with the engines or transmissions, that is why all my vehicles always run under any circumstance.

Newer garbage gets fixed at our workshops and it keeps us in business 24/7, thank gawd for easy money  :thumb: .

I agree with the sentiment, but having watched my brother own and try to maintain his own cars from roughly that time period ('66 Volvo Amazon, '72 VW Beetle, '85 Honda Accord) and watching them suck the time, energy, and money from him just to keep them road worthy... hah nah, that's okay. The occasional large repair bill makes a semi-modern Subaru extremely worthwhile. I know that if you get the right cars that somehow avoided the ravages of time and constant usage, they're unstoppable and cheap but that's a serious challenge for me to acquire these days.

Which kits were you planning to buy, mogo?
Honestly, I was going to buy all of the sets for a full-size. No ergo or extras. Enough to swap around to any of my boards, regardless of size. C'est la vie...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Mon, 23 January 2017, 22:56:33
Honestly, I was going to buy all of the sets for a full-size. No ergo or extras. Enough to swap around to any of my boards, regardless of size. C'est la vie...  :rolleyes:

Well, the good news is that I don't think you will have to miss out on this, even if you won't have the funds for a while. I was going to order some sets myself and keep them on hand so folks who missed out could get them from me, but Bob at SP indicated that won't be necessary. This is what he said:

Quote
With this particular set we will print to order, like we do with our standard DSA sets, Stealth, Ice Cap and a few others (as long as you allow us to run it). So there really isn’t a need for you to stockpile a few.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Mon, 23 January 2017, 23:03:23
Honestly, I was going to buy all of the sets for a full-size. No ergo or extras. Enough to swap around to any of my boards, regardless of size. C'est la vie...  :rolleyes:

Well, the good news is that I don't think you will have to miss out on this, even if you won't have the funds for a while. I was going to order some sets myself and keep them on hand so folks who missed out could get them from me, but Bob at SP indicated that won't be necessary. This is what he said:

Quote
With this particular set we will print to order, like we do with our standard DSA sets, Stealth, Ice Cap and a few others (as long as you allow us to run it). So there really isn’t a need for you to stockpile a few.

When he said print to order is there any quota to run it again or is it simply 1 order is enough and they will make only one?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 24 January 2017, 00:22:15
I honestly don't know.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: jebbra on Tue, 24 January 2017, 02:12:55
But did you allow them to continously restocking these beauties?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: mogo on Tue, 24 January 2017, 11:18:14
Quote
With this particular set we will print to order, like we do with our standard DSA sets, Stealth, Ice Cap and a few others (as long as you allow us to run it). So there really isn’t a need for you to stockpile a few.

*gasp!* Yay! Okay, that's awesome. I was sorta wondering why Ice Cap hadn't disappeared. I'm super happy that, even if it takes a couple months, I'll still have an opportunity to buy a brand new set. Thanks for the good news zslane  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Tue, 24 January 2017, 12:01:35
But did you allow them to continously restocking these beauties?

Yes.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pomk on Thu, 26 January 2017, 19:00:58
Mine shipped already !?! :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Thu, 26 January 2017, 19:55:44
mine shipped too! ;D
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 26 January 2017, 20:18:55
Same here .....  :o ;D :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: bricriu on Fri, 27 January 2017, 00:55:54
Just got mine today! Looks amazing.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Fri, 27 January 2017, 01:48:14
Looks awesome!

I can't wait to see everyone's configurations!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 27 January 2017, 10:09:06
Just got mine today! Looks amazing.

Nice!  Mine are supposed to be here today.  I'm putting my on a poker as well for now.  Can't wait to spend my afternoon arranging the legends :)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 27 January 2017, 18:11:33
Just got mine today! Looks amazing.

Nice!  Mine are supposed to be here today.  I'm putting my on a poker as well for now.  Can't wait to spend my afternoon arranging the legends :)

That's the only killer here and that is TIME, to actually sit down and go through all the key-sets and fit them to their respective keyboards  :'( .
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: Niomosy on Sat, 28 January 2017, 00:17:10
Curious to see if SP puts this one in their standard rotation list.  It is certainly quite a unique set for promoting the G20 caps.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sat, 28 January 2017, 01:41:39
I'm sure that periodically they'll take the pulse of the community/marketplace to see if there is any potential interest and go from there.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: rotane on Sat, 28 January 2017, 04:29:43
Just got mine today! Looks amazing.
Pretty cool! Though you need to rotate the second key from the top (“Exhaust”, that is your number 1 key) 90° to the right ;)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 29 January 2017, 19:37:29
Excited to get mine. The legends look fantastic!  I'm going to ask for a replacement right shift key.  Mine is shaped somewhat like a banana.  Makes it pretty crappy on Cherry stabilizers

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sun, 29 January 2017, 19:45:28
I'm sorry to hear a bad one snuck out of the factory!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 29 January 2017, 22:08:41
Here's my setup for now.  Waiting on a new TKL to add the top strip more

It's a lot of fun to arrange the icons.  I put a few in spots for reasons and then just started adding caps in pairs that worked well together.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Upcoming SP featured "Set of the Month")
Post by: zslane on Sun, 29 January 2017, 22:45:52
Looks awesome!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 30 January 2017, 00:27:38
Also, a nice unexpected bonus is that I found G20 to be pretty fun to type on.  In fact, I just broke my typing record and managed to do it 5 times in a row.  I really think these legends make the profile look a lot nicer though.  Great work, zslane!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 30 January 2017, 05:24:33
Also, a nice unexpected bonus is that I found G20 to be pretty fun to type on.  In fact, I just broke my typing record and managed to do it 5 times in a row.  I really think these legends make the profile look a lot nicer though.  Great work, zslane!

You should be able to break any speed record because flat keys allow easier shift of fingers across the whole surface without being caught with any ridges or bumps like with traditional key profiles.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Mon, 30 January 2017, 11:56:16
I love the fact that nobody is likely to have exactly the same keycap arrangement. Every Semiotic board is a snowflake...  :p
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 05 February 2017, 00:25:46
Not sure what to think of this. Kinda looks like a toy.  It's kinda awesome.

[attach=1]

[attach=2]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Sun, 05 February 2017, 02:10:30
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: sems on Mon, 06 February 2017, 09:31:06
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)

Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 06 February 2017, 09:32:51
Show Image
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)


That's pretty sick, sir.  Nice work
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Mon, 06 February 2017, 12:10:22
Show Image
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)


That's awesome.

I can only imagine what normals folks think when they see that...  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 06 February 2017, 18:49:19
Show Image
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)


Now that is an Alien Keypad, even the Queen would be impressed   8) .
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: oHimari on Thu, 09 February 2017, 10:20:13
(http://imgur.com/6BzYfQu.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/2FgtSOk.jpg)
Semiotic on my RS96.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Tom_Kazansky on Thu, 09 February 2017, 10:26:38
Show Image
(http://imgur.com/6BzYfQu.jpg)

Show Image
(http://imgur.com/2FgtSOk.jpg)

Semiotic on my RS96.

wow  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: mogo on Thu, 09 February 2017, 11:42:40
Show Image
(http://imgur.com/6BzYfQu.jpg)

Show Image
(http://imgur.com/2FgtSOk.jpg)

Semiotic on my RS96.

Good lord, that is a thing of beauty.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Thu, 09 February 2017, 12:21:39
Stunning!

I really like how each person can arrange the symbols in a way that makes unique sense to them. In effect, the arrangement of the symbols reflects the mind of the owner in a way you don't really get with any other keyset.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Tue, 14 February 2017, 11:42:35
Ordered the full works from PMK last night... No idea what I'll use them for but they look so unique and I wanted to try G20 anyways. Wonder how they'll feel on the Realforce RGB...
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Tue, 14 February 2017, 11:54:22
I'll be very interested to hear what you think of them on the RealForce RGB. I could put them on mine, in order to see for myself, but I just can't bear to take off the SA keycaps I have on now.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Wed, 15 February 2017, 23:27:39
(http://i.imgur.com/hnU8x7r.jpg) (http://imgur.com/hnU8x7r.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jif75tr.jpg) (http://imgur.com/jif75tr.jpg)

Lazy/quick/blurry pictures.

Not sure about the G20 profile. Thought I'd like it more at first, but might just need to use it more.

Also I don't think the black case goes too well w/ the white caps...
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: parablol on Thu, 16 February 2017, 10:05:04
Show Image
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)


Beat me to it! Atreus was one of the first things I was thinking of using this set on.

Looks great and I applaud you taste in keyboards.

Perhaps a future iteration with a white-acrylic body to match? That's a combination I've fantasized about.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: sems on Thu, 16 February 2017, 10:33:15
Show Image
(https://i.reddituploads.com/b2ea453c159441248b28844ce3f1cd5d?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=46dd699cccf77a031eb245548a643530)


Beat me to it! Atreus was one of the first things I was thinking of using this set on.

Looks great and I applaud you taste in keyboards.

Perhaps a future iteration with a white-acrylic body to match? That's a combination I've fantasized about.

I'm currently selling Atreus to fund an HHKB, but if it doesn't sell before I travel Japan, I will do an acrylic case for it.
My idea was actually just to get top and backplate in white acrylic and sandwich the wood in between!
I cannot get the Ponoko website working I don't know why to get a quote.

I also want to modify the usb cable, white sleeve would look dope on this!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Thu, 16 February 2017, 12:15:25
Also I don't think the black case goes too well w/ the white caps...

I hear ya.

I had the same issue matching up my Round 6 Space Cadet keycaps with the RealForce RGB. My solution was to paint the case top white.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Thu, 16 February 2017, 13:40:32
My wife loves the profile/design though, so she'll probably steal these from me. And she likes the white on black look, so it all works out.

I might steal some extra symbol caps for a macro board though :D

Also the caps look much better w/uniform LED colors, not the rainbow. I'll take some better pictures tonight.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Thu, 16 February 2017, 22:20:10
(http://i.imgur.com/X3Oe5Tw.jpg) (http://imgur.com/X3Oe5Tw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/YOPRLBR.jpg) (http://imgur.com/YOPRLBR.jpg)

It's funny how my brain is already starting to associate the certain symbols with the corresponding letters.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Fri, 17 February 2017, 00:18:21
I wonder what it would look like with white LED light beaming from underneath them. I wonder if it would make the separation between the keys sort of disappear.

The idea of coloring sections of keys is interesting.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Fri, 17 February 2017, 00:35:16
(http://i.imgur.com/zABTsAQ.jpg) (http://imgur.com/zABTsAQ.jpg)

A little exaggerated from overexposing, but still looks pretty good in person =)

To make the gaps disappear, you might need the keys themselves to also get lighting from on top.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 17 February 2017, 02:21:52
Hot damn that looks amazing.

To make the gaps disappear, you might need the keys themselves to also get lighting from on top.

How could that be done? I've never seen a keyboard where the keys are being lit from above. Or am I misunderstanding something?
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Fri, 17 February 2017, 12:13:29
I think he means from external lighting used for the purpose of the photograph.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Fri, 17 February 2017, 12:19:57
Right, so not really going to happen :( unless they had semi translucent g20 caps to dye sub.

Then the backlighting might work
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: iFreilicht on Fri, 17 February 2017, 13:46:23
Right, so not really going to happen :( unless they had semi translucent g20 caps to dye sub.

Then the backlighting might work

That would be pretty awesome for SP to add to their catalogue of PBT colours. Or maybe, just maybe, they'd add POM to their portfolio, I heard that's used in backlit PBT caps for the translucent part.

That would certainly take this set to the next level, but I'm sure it would also open options for a lot of other interesting sets.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 27 February 2017, 13:59:35
I just got my CoolerMaster XT board painted beige!  I was in the process of putting the a full set of semiotic on, but I had to come back to work.  I'll update with photos tonight.  It looks pretty awesome.  Really makes me wish there were some better options for beige cases.  The paint job is okay, but it's certainly not "premium."

Also, I didn't notice before because I didn't have the numpad kit installled, but it is a bit goofy the way the "Enter" and "+" keys are made.  I guess SP doesn't have G20 molds for vertical 2u caps?  I'm sure we talked about it sometime, but I had forgotten.

Pics tonight!
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Mon, 27 February 2017, 14:06:57
I guess SP doesn't have G20 molds for vertical 2u caps?  I'm sure we talked about it sometime, but I had forgotten.

You are correct on both counts.  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Blazestorm on Mon, 27 February 2017, 16:32:44
I guess SP doesn't have G20 molds for vertical 2u caps?  I'm sure we talked about it sometime, but I had forgotten.

You are correct on both counts.  ;)

Yea that did throw me off a bit when I went to put them on. But it's only 2 keys on a specific layout so I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to do new molds for those.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Mon, 27 February 2017, 19:16:45
Yeah, it's a much bigger deal for ErgoDox users. And if SP were to cater to their needs, they'd need to make both 2u and 1.5u vertical molds.
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 27 February 2017, 22:01:52
Took me another hour to decide the layout.  Too fun!

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

[attach=4]
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Tue, 28 February 2017, 12:28:23
Fantastic!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: a-c on Thu, 30 March 2017, 14:59:39
Mini Semiotic

[attach=1]


More pictures
 (http://www.40percent.club/2017/03/white-panda-alien-gherkin-rainbow.html)
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: zslane on Thu, 30 March 2017, 15:21:19
I love it!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 30 March 2017, 17:17:43
Mini Semiotic

(Attachment Link)


More pictures
 (http://www.40percent.club/2017/03/white-panda-alien-gherkin-rainbow.html)

Very cool. 
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: infodroid on Fri, 14 April 2017, 09:49:55
I just found out the keyset was featured on Boing Boing (https://boingboing.net/2017/01/27/alien-semiotics-keycaps-for-yo.html) a while back, soon after it went on sale.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] G20 Semiotic (Currently available from PMK)
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 02 May 2017, 11:51:02
Interest Checks section is for gathering community interest and opinions on design only--not for discussions of ongoing group buys.  For ongoing group buys, discussion should be either in the Group Buys and Preorders section in a dedicated thread started by OP or, in this specific case, in the Signature Plastics section of this site (or else please contact Signature Plastics directly).