Post by: nine-fox on Tue, 05 March 2019, 21:40:14
The trial version for the editor is online: https://nine-fox.com/editor
(Only support NINE-FOX Pad for now. Will release Tr editor once group buy started)
The Tr. keyboard with keysets preview is online:
https://www.nine-fox.com/editor/#/keysetViewer
And a Chinese page to introduce it:
https://www.zfrontier.com/post/detail/16027
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Updates:
New website is online, please use this one: http://trkeyboard.com
Please submit your Interest Check form at: http://trkeyboard.com
Thanks,
Vincent
---------------------------------------------
Hi,
This is nine-fox from China. Here comes my recent works. Hope you like it.
This is a wireless mechanical keyboard. Usb type-c line mode is also supported. What you see is just a rendering.
Features/technical information:
1) Wireless split keyboard. Left hand and right hand are communicating using Bluetooth 5 (Bluetooth Low Energy 5 exactly)
2) Each switch has RGB back-lighting. The keyboard back-lighting is also supported
4) Mouse stick module is optional. It is using hot pogo pins. So feel free to detach/plug any time
5) 6061 aluminium top case, and PC material bottom case. So no need to worry the Bluetooth signal issue
6) Mother board and child board design. The mother board(known as dock station) is optional
7) Type-c USB interface
8) 7° typing angle
9) Hot-plugging for all switches
10) Magnet design for child keyboard and mother dock station
11) Tr. is short for 'Transformers'
12) Designed and made in China
13) More features coming soon at http://trkeyboard.com
About the layout:
Every key is standard except:
1) left hand bottom line is 1.25x, 1.25x, 1.25x, 3x
2) right hand bottom line is 3x, 1.25x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
[attachimg=10]
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Some pics to describe how it works. Since the design is a bit complex, not sure I make it clear. Leave a message if you do not understand. I will reply as soon as possible. By the way, I am single one man team, I worked on all things including case design, logo design, website design, firmware, nine-fox layout editor, renders, even graphics design and posting. So please be patient if I reply late :-)
The main feature of this keyboard is that, the left and right hand are communicating using BLE5. The key information will be transfered between them using a complex algorithm. I may post more info once prototype is done.
[attachimg=22]
[attachimg=11]
[attachimg=19]
[attachimg=12]
[attachimg=20]
[attachimg=21]
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Some pics to describe the layout editor. It is *not* QMK, or TMK. I began to write this firmware 2 years ago. The reason why I didn't use QMK is that, it is not bluetooth optimized. That's to say, if you want longer battery life, you need to start a new one. Atmega32u4 is too old and high cost under wireless environment. What's more, the other critical limitation is that, it DOES NOT support split architecture.
Please note, the pics here are Chinese language based, and it is still under development. I will add international support when released. What you see in the pics (yoda keyboard with trackpoint) is another keyboard I developed 1 year ago. That's another story. Take a look at nine-fox.com/yoda if you are interested.
The features for this NINE-FOX Editor:
1) No firmware download if you want to change the key mapping. Firmware download only happens when an upgrade happens
2) Supports Windows, Mac and Linux
3) Totally new designed user interface
4) Script programming using Javascript (will be support by upgrading channel after the keyboard released, its still under development)
5) Audio sound RGB effect probably will be supported (in plan)
[attachimg=13]
[attachimg=14]
[attachimg=15]
[attachimg=16]
[attachimg=17]
[attachimg=18]
IC interest check locates at http://trkeyboard.com, please submit if you are interested.
By the way, you may contact me admin@nine-fox.com
Official group buying website http://trkeyboard.com (group buy not open yet)
Join tencent QQ group 193894153, if you are interested.
More pics, see: https://imgur.com/a/er0ijkB
Post by: bisoromi on Tue, 05 March 2019, 21:41:45
Post by: mrpetrov on Tue, 05 March 2019, 21:49:04
Post by: mgsickler on Tue, 05 March 2019, 21:49:58
Post by: Pluto19 on Tue, 05 March 2019, 21:57:12
Just a few questions:
Any chance of a high profile case for the regular split 65%
Any chance of a non-hot-swap PCB?
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
Thank ya :)
Post by: o3okevin on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:04:39
Post by: cyriously on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:06:01
Post by: nine-fox on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:08:47
This is gnarly. I dig it.
Just a few questions:
Any chance of a high profile case for the regular split 65%
Any chance of a non-hot-swap PCB?
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
Thank ya :)
Thanks for your questions!
Any chance of a high profile case for the regular split 65%
- not for this version. That's totally a different design :-)
Any chance of a non-hot-swap PCB?
- Hmm....I guess not....why do you need it? :)
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.
Post by: nine-fox on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:11:16
Is this a transformer? Autobot or a decepticon?
I prefer a black bumblebee ;D
Post by: [Lewynlight] on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:16:50
Post by: nine-fox on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:19:02
Pricing estimate?
IC is a start, then comes pricing :-)
Actually, mother dock is totally optional. The price should not be high for the only child part
Post by: Wonderfool on Tue, 05 March 2019, 22:26:07
Post by: SomePunkassKid on Tue, 05 March 2019, 23:06:49
Let's ****ing send it.
Post by: Retrias on Tue, 05 March 2019, 23:15:48
Post by: Jinnnxxu on Wed, 06 March 2019, 00:02:24
Post by: [Lewynlight] on Wed, 06 March 2019, 00:13:40
Pricing estimate?
IC is a start, then comes pricing :-)
Actually, mother dock is totally optional. The price should not be high for the only child part
let's admit that the thing that makes your board really special is it's mother dock and middle board. i think it's what makes me wanna buy it hahaha.
Post by: Pluto19 on Wed, 06 March 2019, 00:53:08
Thanks for your questions!
Any chance of a high profile case for the regular split 65%
- not for this version. That's totally a different design :-)
Any chance of a non-hot-swap PCB?
- Hmm....I guess not....why do you need it? :)
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.
Oh alright thank you!
Even plate-mount Cherry stabilizers wouldn't be able to work with the mother and child structure of your board?
And as for a solderable PCB, it's just a personal preference.
Thanks again :D
Post by: cyriously on Wed, 06 March 2019, 05:11:44
Post by: vicissitude on Wed, 06 March 2019, 05:33:54
So cool. I love it.
Let's split.
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 06 March 2019, 05:36:21
Post by: bit-shifter on Wed, 06 March 2019, 05:39:26
ISO support pls.I second that request!
Cheers!
Post by: HomerSp on Wed, 06 March 2019, 08:56:21
Does it have ISO support? I would probably get one regardless, but that would be a big plus for me.
Post by: unluckyxiii on Wed, 06 March 2019, 12:19:56
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: SJHL on Wed, 06 March 2019, 13:02:51
Post by: oldcat on Wed, 06 March 2019, 15:49:13
Post by: andrewregal on Wed, 06 March 2019, 17:01:01
Post by: Vigrith on Wed, 06 March 2019, 17:33:47
Good job!
Post by: rondg on Wed, 06 March 2019, 19:06:02
To be completely honest I don't really get how the buy will be structured and what each option entails but the concept is great. I'm only interested in the high-profile case + the barebones halves that go inside it, the mouse etc is irrelevant to me, but I do really like the way this looks.
Good job!
This.
But it's really nice that this is modular. I do have to admit that I am scared of how expensive this would be.
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 21:54:39
To be completely honest I don't really get how the buy will be structured and what each option entails but the concept is great. I'm only interested in the high-profile case + the barebones halves that go inside it, the mouse etc is irrelevant to me, but I do really like the way this looks.
Good job!
This.
But it's really nice that this is modular. I do have to admit that I am scared of how expensive this would be.
Thanks for your interests.
No worries, I will post more pics to explain how it works and show the structure. I am working on it! :-) Give me some time, I am a bit busy these days...
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 21:56:59
To be completely honest I don't really get how the buy will be structured and what each option entails but the concept is great. I'm only interested in the high-profile case + the barebones halves that go inside it, the mouse etc is irrelevant to me, but I do really like the way this looks.
Good job!
I post more pics soon, to explain how it works :-)
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:00:11
Looks so cool!!
Thanks Jinnnxxu!
By the way, Volcano is really cool! If I can afford, I will buy one too.
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:00:45
owo
aha~~ ;D;D;D;D;D
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:01:36
This is pretty awesome.
Thanks for your interests. I have been working this for 2 years actually
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:03:58
ISO support pls.I second that request!
Cheers!
Thanks for your interests!
Unfortunately, ISO support is not planed in R1, due to high price estimate.
If R1 runs well, I will add ISO into R2
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:07:04
color options?
Thanks for your asking.
Color options are not planned in R1 due to high price estimate.
Anyway, there are manufactures support re-anticathode, eg, ALF. So I guess color is not so hard :-)
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:08:26
Very nice!
Thanks oldcat :-)
Your mouse pad looks cool!
Post by: Sylanthra on Wed, 06 March 2019, 22:51:49
You said that there are no color options, but renders are in silver, black and gray. So are those colors going to be available?
Post by: DarkMio on Thu, 07 March 2019, 01:54:30
- Whats your estimate on the battery life?
- How is the communication? Two BT connection to the host or just one?
- Are there optional casing-colors? Maybe even rim-lights possible?
- Are you using QMK? Might it be possible to program it yourself? I'm a very avid QMK user and really like programming for/in it.
Post by: phongnh on Thu, 07 March 2019, 08:14:48
Post by: grizzly_teddy on Thu, 07 March 2019, 08:20:59
Post by: omitrix212 on Thu, 07 March 2019, 12:15:29
Post by: oldcat on Thu, 07 March 2019, 12:31:17
QMK????????????????????????????????????????
QMK will be awesome!!!
Post by: Pluto19 on Thu, 07 March 2019, 14:38:29
Does the PCB support plate mounted switches?
You said that there are no color options, but renders are in silver, black and gray. So are those colors going to be available?
I don't see as to why the PCB wouldn't support plate-mounted switches. If you meant PCB-mounted switches, the PCBs do support that.
Post by: KaosJ on Thu, 07 March 2019, 14:53:31
Some suggestions:
- QMK
- An alu bottom version would be good too, many would be interested and you know an alu bottom price is kinda similar and sometimes lower than acrylic (also easier to do)
- Add brass somewhere, weight/plate (especially plate). Brass is the reason i buy keebs, everyone likes brass.
Post by: ahan98 on Thu, 07 March 2019, 15:09:41
An ergo split with USB C and bluetooth (and hopefully QMK as others have mentioned) would be an instant buy :thumb:
Post by: KaosJ on Thu, 07 March 2019, 15:15:46
Could you add split ergo as a possible layout? Something like this https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard)
An ergo split with USB C and bluetooth (and hopefully QMK as others have mentioned) would be an instant buy :thumb:
Pretty sure that's a totally different keyboard...
Post by: equalunique on Thu, 07 March 2019, 23:50:31
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:24:22
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:25:02
Could you add split ergo as a possible layout? Something like this https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard)
An ergo split with USB C and bluetooth (and hopefully QMK as others have mentioned) would be an instant buy :thumb:
Pretty sure that's a totally different keyboard...
Thanks for your reply! I always like different things :)
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:26:50
Could you add split ergo as a possible layout? Something like this https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard)
An ergo split with USB C and bluetooth (and hopefully QMK as others have mentioned) would be an instant buy :thumb:
Please take a look the page I updated. I didn't use QMK. I use self designed editor - the reason is in the page :)
By the way, I will use javascript as a programming interface that will post to user.
Thanks for your interest!
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:27:48
QMK????????????????????????????????????????
QMK will be awesome!!!
No. QMK works not so well in split keyboard design. Please take a look at the page I updated. Thanks
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:30:08
Could you add split ergo as a possible layout? Something like this https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-keyboard-split-ergonomic-keyboard)
An ergo split with USB C and bluetooth (and hopefully QMK as others have mentioned) would be an instant buy :thumb:
Well, to myself, I tried ergo layout and ..... no any luck, I can not even type using this layout. My previous prototype is a wireless planck. I used one day, and then throw it...that's really bad experience (just for me I guess)
As a result, I determined to make one that normal people(eg, my wife) can use - not just for myself
Hope you can understand :)
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:31:01
Looks like a dream come true for me, I am in
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:31:24
amazeballs.....
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:31:42
owo
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:32:01
This is pretty awesome.
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:32:29
This pretty much looks like a dream come through for me as it's the exact type of keyboard I've been looking for. So I'm definitely down!
Does it have ISO support? I would probably get one regardless, but that would be a big plus for me.
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:33:44
To be completely honest I don't really get how the buy will be structured and what each option entails but the concept is great. I'm only interested in the high-profile case + the barebones halves that go inside it, the mouse etc is irrelevant to me, but I do really like the way this looks.
Good job!
Thanks for your reply.
For the structure, I uploaded more pics, you can take a look :)
BTW, IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:36:48
Does the PCB support plate mounted switches?
You said that there are no color options, but renders are in silver, black and gray. So are those colors going to be available?
Ah, thanks for your asking. Actually, I learned how to render just a few weeks ago, not so familiar with it. The ALU material is actually black in all render environment. However, due to lights angle and sun light color(different time will cause different sun light color), it looks different.
I will learn how to make them(color) consistent in the future.
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:37:35
Does the PCB support plate mounted switches?
You said that there are no color options, but renders are in silver, black and gray. So are those colors going to be available?
Black or gray will be supported in R1. I will decide once prototype is done.
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:45:40
Ok take my money, this is just awesome. Any idea on the prices for each module? (a bare range)
Some suggestions:
- QMK
- An alu bottom version would be good too, many would be interested and you know an alu bottom price is kinda similar and sometimes lower than acrylic (also easier to do)
- Add brass somewhere, weight/plate (especially plate). Brass is the reason i buy keebs, everyone likes brass.
Thanks for your interests! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
- QMK
I explained it in the topic, please take a look :)
- An alu bottom version would be good too, many would be interested and you know an alu bottom price is kinda similar and sometimes lower than acrylic (also easier to do)
Actually, ALU bottom is totally a different design. How to place the ANT? How about collision during absorbing? It needs lots of work and will increase price also. At the this stage, what I thought is focus on the current design, as simple as possible, even it is so complex already
- Add brass somewhere, weight/plate (especially plate). Brass is the reason i buy keebs, everyone likes brass.
Probably in R2, its in plan :-)
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:46:27
Woah!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for your interest! IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:47:57
Thanks for your questions!
Any chance of a high profile case for the regular split 65%
- not for this version. That's totally a different design :-)
Any chance of a non-hot-swap PCB?
- Hmm....I guess not....why do you need it? :)
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.
Oh alright thank you!
Even plate-mount Cherry stabilizers wouldn't be able to work with the mother and child structure of your board?
And as for a solderable PCB, it's just a personal preference.
Thanks again :D
Thanks for your questions. Actually, I designed serveral LEDs on space area. As a result, there are no space left in that space between plate and pcb :-(
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 03:49:28
Love the design! It's definitely a nice break from the normal 60%.
Thanks. I didn't like 60% actually :-(
68 is the min layout I can use~
Post by: HomerSp on Fri, 08 March 2019, 04:13:40
Out of curiosity, are these renders all just concept art, or do you actually have the PCB printed and working?
Post by: Anakey on Fri, 08 March 2019, 04:32:04
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 04:37:07
Signed up for two base kits + expansion kits - really excited!
Out of curiosity, are these renders all just concept art, or do you actually have the PCB printed and working?
Pcb work is done 80%. Case work is done 90%, already sent to factory yesterday, thats why I can render it. Some design will be changed according to factory's opinion. So would it answer your question?
BTW, my previous pcb desgin works well, take a look at the following links. The same MCU will be used in Tr.
https://www.zfrontier.com/post/detail/11974
Thanks for your interest!
Post by: Visionaire on Fri, 08 March 2019, 06:06:23
Post by: SomePunkassKid on Fri, 08 March 2019, 07:17:05
I went ahead and put all kits for the IC, but I thought the only accessories were the child board with mouse add-on.
Post by: Vigrith on Fri, 08 March 2019, 07:50:51
Thanks for your reply.
For the structure, I uploaded more pics, you can take a look :)
BTW, IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
The new pictures and explanations are extremely informative and I think I fully understand how it all works now - very ingenious, well done, I look forward to participating if the price is reasonable!
Post by: Xiaojun27 on Fri, 08 March 2019, 08:49:01
It would be nice if you could upload the layout of the keyboard that I would like to check my spare keycaps(mainly the spacebar, 3u*2 ?)
really looking forward to this group buy :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 09:56:55
really lovely design and the functionality are quite considerate for daily keyboard users~
It would be nice if you could upload the layout of the keyboard that I would like to check my spare keycaps(mainly the spacebar, 3u*2 ?)
really looking forward to this group buy :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Thank you buddy! :p :p :p :p :p :p
The layout is added in description, thanks for pointing it out!
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 09:57:44
Thanks for your reply.
For the structure, I uploaded more pics, you can take a look :)
BTW, IC form is online. Please submit if you are interested. nine-fox.com/tr
The new pictures and explanations are extremely informative and I think I fully understand how it all works now - very ingenious, well done, I look forward to participating if the price is reasonable!
Thanks very much! I will try my best to keep the price as low as possible
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:01:10
What's the difference between the "base kit + expansion kit + mouse kit" vs the "all kits"?
I went ahead and put all kits for the IC, but I thought the only accessories were the child board with mouse add-on.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, the all kits means everything provided in the pic(no keycaps, switches, costar anyway): https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99719.0;attach=214368;image
while "base kit + expansion kit + mouse kit" means footer and hand rest are not covered ;)
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:04:16
Might have been asked before, but will this support using only one side at a time? Like, could I use the left side only and not have the right one on my desk at all?
I have updated some pics to describe how it works, please take a look.
Yes, only one side is ok. However, it will continue advertising forever(that is, to find another hand part). In this way, the battery costs a bit high. (Well, of course no worries if you use USB mode)
Hope it can explain
Post by: overflow on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:05:56
i have always wanted split keyboard that support wireless function like this. I ve waited ve.a for about a year, but i just changed my mind after i saw it. I hope that its not gonna be over over-priced.
i want to see any video that shows how does this modular feature works.
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:09:21
The renders and the design work that went into this is stunning, however it appears to be a choice of form over funtion like the above comment with the LEDS limiting the stabilisers that can be used. It may seem a small point however considering the $500+ that this is going to cost to be limited to the costar stabs just because of some LEDs seems a very short sighted view for such a premium board. Whilst ultimately a GB board is designed by the one running the GB for ones self there also needs to be a certain amount of give to allow the GB to function to recoup the losses through prototyping which for such a complex board will probably be quite high. Something else that i do not see is any batteries for the wireless communication so this board would need both halves plugged in using cables so then each half could just exist as separate keyboards without bluetooth at all?
Thanks for your reply! for your questions:
1) I forgot to add batteries in previous pic. Already updated, please take a look. Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, the bluetooth connection is always established between the right and left hand.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99719.0;attach=214720;image
2) For stabiliser, let me think about it. Probably an investigation/survey is needed.
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:12:02
:) this is awesome.
i have always wanted split keyboard that support wireless function like this. I ve waited ve.a for about a year, but i just changed my mind after i saw it. I hope that its not gonna be over over-priced.
i want to see any video that shows how does this modular feature works.
Thanks for your interests! Sure, I will post video/images once prototype is done :-)
BTW, please submit the IC so that I can take it into account. Thanks.
Post by: Anakey on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:20:32
The renders and the design work that went into this is stunning, however it appears to be a choice of form over funtion like the above comment with the LEDS limiting the stabilisers that can be used. It may seem a small point however considering the $500+ that this is going to cost to be limited to the costar stabs just because of some LEDs seems a very short sighted view for such a premium board. Whilst ultimately a GB board is designed by the one running the GB for ones self there also needs to be a certain amount of give to allow the GB to function to recoup the losses through prototyping which for such a complex board will probably be quite high. Something else that i do not see is any batteries for the wireless communication so this board would need both halves plugged in using cables so then each half could just exist as separate keyboards without bluetooth at all?
Thanks for your reply! for your questions:
1) I forgot to add batteries in previous pic. Already updated, please take a look. Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, the bluetooth connection is always established between the right and left hand.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99719.0;attach=214720;image
2) For stabiliser, let me think about it. Probably an investigation/survey is needed.
Thankyou for the reply to my questions, getting the 3u keycaps for the spacebars would be quite a challenge Hopefully 2.75u keys could still be used as those are more standard then the 3u.
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 08 March 2019, 10:37:58
The renders and the design work that went into this is stunning, however it appears to be a choice of form over funtion like the above comment with the LEDS limiting the stabilisers that can be used. It may seem a small point however considering the $500+ that this is going to cost to be limited to the costar stabs just because of some LEDs seems a very short sighted view for such a premium board. Whilst ultimately a GB board is designed by the one running the GB for ones self there also needs to be a certain amount of give to allow the GB to function to recoup the losses through prototyping which for such a complex board will probably be quite high. Something else that i do not see is any batteries for the wireless communication so this board would need both halves plugged in using cables so then each half could just exist as separate keyboards without bluetooth at all?
Thanks for your reply! for your questions:
1) I forgot to add batteries in previous pic. Already updated, please take a look. Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, the bluetooth connection is always established between the right and left hand.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99719.0;attach=214720;image
2) For stabiliser, let me think about it. Probably an investigation/survey is needed.
Thankyou for the reply to my questions, getting the 3u keycaps for the spacebars would be quite a challenge Hopefully 2.75u keys could still be used as those are more standard then the 3u.
Even 2.75 is standard, 2.75 spacebar is really rare. If there is 'Shift' word on the keycap, that would be ugly. In contrast, minila spacebar and minila kit is quite common than 2.75 spacebar, its common for cherry profile and sa profile. Take a look at carbon for example. The drawback is that, gmk do not have 3u. Still not sure why gmk did not provide.
So finally, I choose 3u as spacebar
Post by: Vigrith on Fri, 08 March 2019, 11:27:30
So finally, I choose 3u as spacebar
I hadn't noticed that and that kinda worries me to be honest, whilst probably not a deal breaker for me because I have some Cherry PBT sets that do have 3u space bars, the vast majority of the more hardcore enthusiasts (which I'd say is the target audience for a board such as this) use GMK almost exclusively - not being able to outfit the board with that kind of sit is quite worrying, add that to the fact costar stabs are required and that's quite a few specific things that need to be met to be able to build and use this board.
As said, not a huge deal for me, but I can see it being a big hurdle for you moving forward. Not sure if that's something you'd like to consider, but I figured I'd bring it up regardless.
Post by: Anakey on Fri, 08 March 2019, 11:34:24
The renders and the design work that went into this is stunning, however it appears to be a choice of form over funtion like the above comment with the LEDS limiting the stabilisers that can be used. It may seem a small point however considering the $500+ that this is going to cost to be limited to the costar stabs just because of some LEDs seems a very short sighted view for such a premium board. Whilst ultimately a GB board is designed by the one running the GB for ones self there also needs to be a certain amount of give to allow the GB to function to recoup the losses through prototyping which for such a complex board will probably be quite high. Something else that i do not see is any batteries for the wireless communication so this board would need both halves plugged in using cables so then each half could just exist as separate keyboards without bluetooth at all?
Thanks for your reply! for your questions:
1) I forgot to add batteries in previous pic. Already updated, please take a look. Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, the bluetooth connection is always established between the right and left hand.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=99719.0;attach=214720;image
2) For stabiliser, let me think about it. Probably an investigation/survey is needed.
Thankyou for the reply to my questions, getting the 3u keycaps for the spacebars would be quite a challenge Hopefully 2.75u keys could still be used as those are more standard then the 3u.
Even 2.75 is standard, 2.75 spacebar is really rare. If there is 'Shift' word on the keycap, that would be ugly. In contrast, minila spacebar and minila kit is quite common than 2.75 spacebar, its common for cherry profile and sa profile. Take a look at carbon for example. The drawback is that, gmk do not have 3u. Still not sure why gmk did not provide.
So finally, I choose 3u as spacebar
2.75u spacebars are often included in almost every kit due to split 2.25u 1u 2.75u being common mainly due to the many small form factor boards whereas hardly any kits do 3u spacebars you point out only Carbon taht is big enough to fit every keycap in most other sets will not have a 3u spacebar especially if it is only for a single board.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Fri, 08 March 2019, 12:38:31
Post by: HomerSp on Fri, 08 March 2019, 12:48:31
Are you going to open source the firmware once it's done? Or maybe you haven't decided yet?
Post by: _ODIN_ on Fri, 08 March 2019, 12:53:53
Post by: KaosJ on Fri, 08 March 2019, 15:38:05
The board is hotswappable anyway, if something goes wrong with stabilizers you just need to remove the switches and fix the stabs.
Honestly costars turns me off.
Post by: RacerK1 on Fri, 08 March 2019, 17:39:13
Post by: Anaconda on Fri, 08 March 2019, 18:17:40
Post by: tex_live_utility on Fri, 08 March 2019, 18:56:48
- Tenting option in split mode
- Split backspace
- Ability to use it wired
Frankly I don't care much about Costar stabs but I can see why people strongly prefer Cherry. As long as it's not Cherry plate-mount I'm OK.
Post by: phongnh on Fri, 08 March 2019, 22:51:31
Post by: freespam on Sat, 09 March 2019, 00:43:50
Do you have any idea how long would the batteries last?
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 20:39:51
Is the mouse stick the same as a trackpoint? And can you use FN with it to scroll?
Do you have any idea how long would the batteries last?
Well, the mouse module is from a Thinkpad which is not part of Tr. kit. Who buy it will try to find one from old Thinkpad keyboard -- Thats is official sound, due to legal issues. (Trackpoint module is Lenovo product I can not use it/resell it)
But personally, I will provide guides to find one :-) (DIY way, you know)
About FN and scroll function, it is a must to support, because I am a deep user of trackpoint.
For batteries, I will post the data once prototype is done.
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 20:43:25
Any plan to support ortholinear layout?
Sorry. NO.
Personally(just to me), ortholinear layout experience is really bad and I won't do it for my whole life ---- because I have already created a wireless split planck, and I used it just one day, one day! And then throw it away... :eek: :eek: :eek:
No offence, this is just my personal experience, not for all of people.
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 20:49:22
+1 for:
- Tenting option in split mode
- Split backspace
- Ability to use it wired
Frankly I don't care much about Costar stabs but I can see why people strongly prefer Cherry. As long as it's not Cherry plate-mount I'm OK.
thanks for your asking!
- Tenting option
Well, the price will be higher for all kits if I did it. I thought about it. However, it will not be covered in R1. Actually, its really easy. I will provide a STL/STEP file and you can 3d print it. Then it would fulfill your requirement. Is that sounds ok?
-Split backspace
This is ISO support too. However, if backspace split is used, hot-swap feature will be removed. One cannot serve God man Mammon
-Ability to use it wired
Base+Extra(the dock) kits will be used only as wired mode
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 20:56:28
I would personally prefer a normal solderable pcb. Also cherry stabs are needed. Also there is an option to use it wired? that is also important imo.
Thanks for your asking.
For wire mode, please see the structure pics I attached. Extra kit(dock) only works in wire mode. Base kit support wireless mode and wired mode.
Unfortunately, Cherry stab is not planned in R1. It will increase the price - at least 50~100$. I guess it is not acceptable. Also, the base kit needs lots of rework. I also need to do time estimate - no one wants it 43 years later, right?
For solderable pcb, well, it can be achievable. You can just use electric soldering iron to disconnect the Kailh hot-swap module and then connect the new switch. That's easy
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 21:24:05
Please include an option for split backspace. Also, more options for the bottom row would be good. 3u spacebars look nice, but may split keyboard users have key sets with 2.25 and 2.75 and compatibility with those sets would be appreciated.
Hot-swap and compatible layout can not both exist. If you choose compatible layout, hot-swap feature will be removed.
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 21:27:58
Wait i see a huge problem, why you are using costar stabilizers? Please can you just use PCB mount cherry-style stabilizers?
The board is hotswappable anyway, if something goes wrong with stabilizers you just need to remove the switches and fix the stabs.
Honestly costars turns me off.
Thanks for your asking. Due to high cost, costar is only for now.
Technically, supporting other stabs can be done, but the price will go higher.
Another point is, costar is perfect for base kit - take whitefox/nightfox for example, it looks better than cherry stab when you are using a case like this. Cherry stab needs a big hole in plate, which is ugly
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 21:28:46
submitted the form :)
Thanks for your support! :)
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 10 March 2019, 21:41:37
Thank you for the detailed information, I really appreciate all of the work you have put into this so far. Hoping it won't be that long until you have the prototype ready :)
Are you going to open source the firmware once it's done? Or maybe you haven't decided yet?
The meaning of opening source is that, others can do enhancement or add new features into it. Unfortunately, I doubt that, because the firmware is much complex than any one in the market. Take mitosis for example, lots of people only wants to use it, instead of enhancing it. Let's split is great but its too simple, comparing to dual mode(wireless and usb). Not to mention bluetooth 5, it needs professional view.
So, I can even imagine that, its still me(only me) who did most of the work, plus the open source community maintenance, which is another burden. Also, probably comes with other dispute, take China faked bface for example.
I am one man team, not because I want to be. Just because I can not find other teammates who can dedicate to focus on firmware coding/designing. I always comes with high demand. Even simple tiny things, I want it to be perfect - none can do it right now.
As a result, I won't open source it till the situation is changed. Right now I only want to focus on development till it is released - it needs some huge work
Post by: Pluto19 on Sun, 10 March 2019, 23:55:55
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.
Unfortunately, Cherry stab is not planned in R1. It will increase the price - at least 50~100$. I guess it is not acceptable.
Thanks for your asking. Due to high cost, costar is only for now.
Technically, supporting other stabs can be done, but the price will go higher.
Another point is, costar is perfect for base kit - take whitefox/nightfox for example, it looks better than cherry stab when you are using a case like this. Cherry stab needs a big hole in plate, which is ugly
Wait. So, is the lack of support for Cherry-style stabilizers due to the mother-and-child design as you originally answered, manufacturing cost restraints, or aesthetics? Or is it some combination of all three and then some?
Edit: Also just an FYI ~ you can click the Multi-Quote feature and then click Reply for multiple and/or similar questions.
Post by: KaosJ on Mon, 11 March 2019, 01:59:53
QMK is nice in 2019 but is not mandatory, while making stabilizers standard is mandatory to make a $400 keyboard usable for us.
- Cherry PCB mounted stabilizers is a must, no way anyone is going to spend a good amount of money on costars stabs keyboard.
- 2x3u stabs are impossible to find in our keysets, use this instead:
- 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 2.25 - 1.25 || 2.75 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1
- 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 2.25 - 1.25 || 2.75 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1
I believe whoever didn't complained about that, just didn't noticed none of these things (yet)
Post by: cyriously on Mon, 11 March 2019, 02:20:12
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
Post by: SomePunkassKid on Mon, 11 March 2019, 02:40:48
Although it'd make life easier if we can just buy the set together with the main GB.
As far as the 3u. I have 2 pairs in white and black, concave, spacebars. They're pretty easy to get via aliexpress and/or KpRepublic (I think).
If anything, a small solution to salvage most of the case design would be to:
1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 2.25 (split) 2.75, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
This keeps row length, but has the "more abundant keys"
Post by: _ODIN_ on Mon, 11 March 2019, 03:12:02
Gesendet von meinem H8416 mit Tapatalk
Post by: KaosJ on Mon, 11 March 2019, 14:17:29
I agree with cyriously about the costar stabs. I couldn't care less since cherry/gmk stabs aren't perfect stabilisation solutions anyway. It'd just suck if a v2.0 came out and we'd be stuck with costars.
Although it'd make life easier if we can just buy the set together with the main GB.
As far as the 3u. I have 2 pairs in white and black, concave, spacebars. They're pretty easy to get via aliexpress and/or KpRepublic (I think).
If anything, a small solution to salvage most of the case design would be to:
1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 2.25 (split) 2.75, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
This keeps row length, but has the "more abundant keys"
PCB stabs ain't perfect but is the best solution we have right now. I would argue that GMK screw-in stabs with the good mods are pretty close to perfection in this field (or Zeal v2 stabs). At least for the perfection we can achieve on stabs.
The fact that you can actually find 3u somewhere means really zero to me and many other people (no offense), if none of the common sets we have (gmk, sa) contains 3u x2, the whole keyboard is pointless. No way we are going to pair a random white or black 3u keycap with the sets we have, I mean if i spend $200 on a set of caps, the whole keyboard needs to be filled with these caps, not other random color caps in a random profile of a random material.
I think 3U spacebars are common in China (correct me if I'm wrong) hence ePBT offers 3u spacebar, even in base kits.
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
I doubt 3u are popular in China, even if they are, i doubt 3u in China is more popular more than 2.75+2.25 (which are often contained in every "big set").
Even if it's true, he is doing this GB here for GH/Reddit/Keebtalk where 3u stabs are not even a remote option, so in that case he should do 2 plate style, one for China with costar and 3u x2 and one for the rest of the World with PCB mounted and 2.25+1.25+2.75.
Without mentioning how bad Costars actually are against a proper adjusted/modded pcb mounted stab.
IMO, even if i'm super excited for the design, personally I would skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars, and i believe most of the people who can buy a $350-500 keyboard would do the same. It's an expensive keyboard due the design, i don't believe there are many people that are interested in buying this keeb if they have to use random 3u caps and costars.
Stabilizers can be ignored on a $60-80 keyboard, which is not the case.
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:14:39
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.Unfortunately, Cherry stab is not planned in R1. It will increase the price - at least 50~100$. I guess it is not acceptable.Thanks for your asking. Due to high cost, costar is only for now.
Technically, supporting other stabs can be done, but the price will go higher.
Another point is, costar is perfect for base kit - take whitefox/nightfox for example, it looks better than cherry stab when you are using a case like this. Cherry stab needs a big hole in plate, which is ugly
Wait. So, is the lack of support for Cherry-style stabilizers due to the mother-and-child design as you originally answered, manufacturing cost restraints, or aesthetics? Or is it some combination of all three and then some?
Edit: Also just an FYI ~ you can click the Multi-Quote feature and then click Reply for multiple and/or similar questions.
Well, magnet is needed in the center split area. While no spaces at TGB and YHN, there is only space left at 3x space. As a result, the magnet is put there, its need a hole. CNC needs at least 3mm thickness, so you can guess only costar can do it.
If use pcb stab, CNC should do 1mm thickness which will cost too much. I guess at least $50-$100.
While the space is limited, its better to use 3x as there is more room.
PS. multi-quote is great feature! I never do it before! Thanks very much for your tips.
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:15:20
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.Unfortunately, Cherry stab is not planned in R1. It will increase the price - at least 50~100$. I guess it is not acceptable.Thanks for your asking. Due to high cost, costar is only for now.
Technically, supporting other stabs can be done, but the price will go higher.
Another point is, costar is perfect for base kit - take whitefox/nightfox for example, it looks better than cherry stab when you are using a case like this. Cherry stab needs a big hole in plate, which is ugly
Wait. So, is the lack of support for Cherry-style stabilizers due to the mother-and-child design as you originally answered, manufacturing cost restraints, or aesthetics? Or is it some combination of all three and then some?
Edit: Also just an FYI ~ you can click the Multi-Quote feature and then click Reply for multiple and/or similar questions.
Well, magnet is needed in the center split area. While no spaces at TGB and YHN, there is only space left at 3x space. As a result, the magnet is put there, its need a hole. CNC needs at least 3mm thickness, so you can guess only costar can do it.
If use pcb stab, CNC should do 1mm thickness which will cost too much. I guess at least $50-$100.
While the space is limited, its better to use 3x as there is more room.
PS. multi-quote is great feature! I never do it before! Thanks very much for your tips.
As other pointed out, i also think that the stabilizers problem should be fixed.
QMK is nice in 2019 but is not mandatory, while making stabilizers standard is mandatory to make a $400 keyboard usable for us.
- Cherry PCB mounted stabilizers is a must, no way anyone is going to spend a good amount of money on costars stabs keyboard.
- 2x3u stabs are impossible to find in our keysets, use this instead:
- 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 2.25 - 1.25 || 2.75 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1
- 1.25 - 1.25 - 1.25 - 2.25 - 1.25 || 2.75 - 1.5 - 1.5 - 1 - 1 - 1
I believe whoever didn't complained about that, just didn't noticed none of these things (yet)
See my comments pls
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:19:48
I think 3U spacebars are common in China (correct me if I'm wrong) hence ePBT offers 3u spacebar, even in base kits.
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
Thanks for your understanding. For 3u and 2.75u, both of them have advantages and disadvantages.
My current estimation is that, I need at least 1 month to change if 2.75 is used - including case, plate, bottom case, and pcb - that's almost everything.
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:26:05
I agree with cyriously about the costar stabs. I couldn't care less since cherry/gmk stabs aren't perfect stabilisation solutions anyway. It'd just suck if a v2.0 came out and we'd be stuck with costars.
Although it'd make life easier if we can just buy the set together with the main GB.
As far as the 3u. I have 2 pairs in white and black, concave, spacebars. They're pretty easy to get via aliexpress and/or KpRepublic (I think).
If anything, a small solution to salvage most of the case design would be to:
1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 2.25 (split) 2.75, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
This keeps row length, but has the "more abundant keys"
for stab, please see comments above...forget to quote :-(
Post by: SomePunkassKid on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:30:45
I think 3U spacebars are common in China (correct me if I'm wrong) hence ePBT offers 3u spacebar, even in base kits.
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
Thanks for your understanding. For 3u and 2.75u, both of them have advantages and disadvantages.
My current estimation is that, I need at least 1 month to change if 2.75 is used - including case, plate, bottom case, and pcb - that's almost everything.
IMO, just do the 3u board now and do a 2.75/2.25 option for an R2 at a later time.
Concerning the costar stabs: I assumed it was a technical limitation. And even though I'm not particularly limited by pricing points, another $100 would really start to shrink general MOQ numbers.
Also, will we be able to purchase a second child board similarly to the set up in the first picture?
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:32:16
I agree with cyriously about the costar stabs. I couldn't care less since cherry/gmk stabs aren't perfect stabilisation solutions anyway. It'd just suck if a v2.0 came out and we'd be stuck with costars.
Although it'd make life easier if we can just buy the set together with the main GB.
As far as the 3u. I have 2 pairs in white and black, concave, spacebars. They're pretty easy to get via aliexpress and/or KpRepublic (I think).
If anything, a small solution to salvage most of the case design would be to:
1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 2.25 (split) 2.75, 1.5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
This keeps row length, but has the "more abundant keys"
PCB stabs ain't perfect but is the best solution we have right now. I would argue that GMK screw-in stabs with the good mods are pretty close to perfection in this field (or Zeal v2 stabs). At least for the perfection we can achieve on stabs.
The fact that you can actually find 3u somewhere means really zero to me and many other people (no offense), if none of the common sets we have (gmk, sa) contains 3u x2, the whole keyboard is pointless. No way we are going to pair a random white or black 3u keycap with the sets we have, I mean if i spend $200 on a set of caps, the whole keyboard needs to be filled with these caps, not other random color caps in a random profile of a random material.I think 3U spacebars are common in China (correct me if I'm wrong) hence ePBT offers 3u spacebar, even in base kits.
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
I doubt 3u are popular in China, even if they are, i doubt 3u in China is more popular more than 2.75+2.25 (which are often contained in every "big set").
Even if it's true, he is doing this GB here for GH/Reddit/Keebtalk where 3u stabs are not even a remote option, so in that case he should do 2 plate style, one for China with costar and 3u x2 and one for the rest of the World with PCB mounted and 2.25+1.25+2.75.
Without mentioning how bad Costars actually are against a proper adjusted/modded pcb mounted stab.
IMO, even if i'm super excited for the design, personally I would skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars, and i believe most of the people who can buy a $350-500 keyboard would do the same. It's an expensive keyboard due the design, i don't believe there are many people that are interested in buying this keeb if they have to use random 3u caps and costars.
Stabilizers can be ignored on a $60-80 keyboard, which is not the case.
For 3u stab, you may forget one thing: Its rare(both pcb, cherry and costar) in the market. I have just found a channel can provide customized costar 3u stab, which can be trusted (its from a keyboard named mickey board 2.0).
Post by: nine-fox on Wed, 13 March 2019, 10:36:57
I think 3U spacebars are common in China (correct me if I'm wrong) hence ePBT offers 3u spacebar, even in base kits.
OP said 2.75 and 2.25 spacebars are rare, and I assume, here at least in GH, we mostly prefer 2.75 2.25 spacebars.
This keyboard is OP's vision, of course we can give feedback.
But if trying to cater to two different groups 3u vs (2.75 2.25) + cherry stabilizers requires too much rework, I'm fine with going 3u with Costar.
One solution I can see is to make two version keyboard. One is to cater GMK users (with customizable layout with non hotswap PCB), and one is the original in the first post.
IMO, personally, I won't skip this keyboard just because of costar and 3u spacebars. It's just too good.
Thanks for your understanding. For 3u and 2.75u, both of them have advantages and disadvantages.
My current estimation is that, I need at least 1 month to change if 2.75 is used - including case, plate, bottom case, and pcb - that's almost everything.
IMO, just do the 3u board now and do a 2.75/2.25 option for an R2 at a later time.
Concerning the costar stabs: I assumed it was a technical limitation. And even though I'm not particularly limited by pricing points, another $100 would really start to shrink general MOQ numbers.
Also, will we be able to purchase a second child board similarly to the set up in the first picture?
Thanks for your understanding. While you saying 'second child board', you mean the mouse stick module, correct? That's OK to buy 2 ---- only if you can afford! :)
Post by: HomerSp on Wed, 13 March 2019, 14:36:13
Post by: Poesjuh on Wed, 13 March 2019, 14:49:52
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: KaosJ on Wed, 13 March 2019, 15:14:12
I'm personally fine with the 3u spacebars, however, it may be something to reconsider for the second version since 2.75u and 2.25u keycaps are easier to find, as has been said already. Don't have any experience with costar stabs myself, so I can't say which is better - what are the pros and cons of costar vs cherry?
Costars are just bad, no pros at all (except the fact that corsars are mounted on the plate which makes things easier for newbies)
Post by: KaosJ on Wed, 13 March 2019, 15:20:39
Any chance of non-Costar stabilizers?
- No. I like cherry stab actually. However, the mother and child structure means costar stab is a must.Unfortunately, Cherry stab is not planned in R1. It will increase the price - at least 50~100$. I guess it is not acceptable.Thanks for your asking. Due to high cost, costar is only for now.
Technically, supporting other stabs can be done, but the price will go higher.
Another point is, costar is perfect for base kit - take whitefox/nightfox for example, it looks better than cherry stab when you are using a case like this. Cherry stab needs a big hole in plate, which is ugly
Wait. So, is the lack of support for Cherry-style stabilizers due to the mother-and-child design as you originally answered, manufacturing cost restraints, or aesthetics? Or is it some combination of all three and then some?
Edit: Also just an FYI ~ you can click the Multi-Quote feature and then click Reply for multiple and/or similar questions.
Well, magnet is needed in the center split area. While no spaces at TGB and YHN, there is only space left at 3x space. As a result, the magnet is put there, its need a hole. CNC needs at least 3mm thickness, so you can guess only costar can do it.
If use pcb stab, CNC should do 1mm thickness which will cost too much. I guess at least $50-$100.
While the space is limited, its better to use 3x as there is more room.
PS. multi-quote is great feature! I never do it before! Thanks very much for your tips.
I didn't get it, care to explain better ? Maybe with some photos.
Where is the magnet exactly and why adding pcb mounted stabs would change soo much the CNC process.
>there is only space left at 3x space
What you mean O.o?
I'm looking at your design and i'm trying so hard to understand what you said, but i really don't see a correlation, so please, if you don't mind, try to explain better.
Post by: Vigrith on Wed, 13 March 2019, 16:09:52
Post by: KaosJ on Wed, 13 March 2019, 17:16:46
Let's be honest **** costars, but the biggest, BIGGEST issue is the fact that the bars are 3u, it's super unsustainable for a LOT of people.
This, even if bad, costars are a lot less bad than 3u keys. You know, i actually want to use a keycap set on the keyboard lol
Let's face the cruel reality OP, few guys might say "ok let's do this with 3u and costars" (newcomers, maybe?), BUT the majority (like 95% of the people) that aren't even writing here, will NOT consider this keyboard even at $200 if it ends up to have costars and 3u (what is this, a Mistel keyboard lol?). Pretty sure that with 3u and costars for a $400 will be a big failed GB and i hope this will not happen since the design is very special and i see you put a lot of effort in it.
Don't ruin everything for 3u and costars, it is a big deal, don't rush the GB, just fix the design. I'm pretty sure there are multiple easy ways to do so and still i don't see the reasons for not fixing (I just didn't understand what you explained).
I wouldn't mind to help you for free if it's needed. Just don't do the mistake to rush this GB, in the current state will be a fail, unless you wanted to limit the GB to max 10 units anyway.
Post by: RacerK1 on Wed, 13 March 2019, 17:21:19
Post by: unluckyxiii on Wed, 13 March 2019, 22:01:12
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Post by: regionfree on Thu, 14 March 2019, 02:46:21
the only kits that have 3u spacebars are some of the SP SA kits, and the uninteresting pbt sets (which are either blank sets, or knock offs of popular sets). GMK has no 3u spacebars. a lot of enthusiasts invested money into their gmk sets.
the design is nice, but personally, not nice enough for me to ignore my gmk sets.
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 14 March 2019, 04:47:00
So finally, I choose 3u as spacebar
I hadn't noticed that and that kinda worries me to be honest, whilst probably not a deal breaker for me because I have some Cherry PBT sets that do have 3u space bars, the vast majority of the more hardcore enthusiasts (which I'd say is the target audience for a board such as this) use GMK almost exclusively - not being able to outfit the board with that kind of sit is quite worrying, add that to the fact costar stabs are required and that's quite a few specific things that need to be met to be able to build and use this board.
As said, not a huge deal for me, but I can see it being a big hurdle for you moving forward. Not sure if that's something you'd like to consider, but I figured I'd bring it up regardless.
This.
3u spacebar? Goodbye non-China market and all who treasures their GMK set - OP can as well switch to simplified Chinese language
Post by: KaosJ on Thu, 14 March 2019, 16:14:01
I'm definitely out if it goes forward with 3u spacebars...
Mee too, how to turn a must buy into a easy no, sadly...
Post by: HomerSp on Thu, 14 March 2019, 16:42:59
You will certainly get a lot more interest if you do go forward and change it, so please do consider it.
Post by: AdrianMan on Sat, 16 March 2019, 22:19:26
Do 2.75 / 1.25 / 2.25 - compatibility is very very important.
Post by: RDaneelOlivaw on Sun, 17 March 2019, 14:42:17
Post by: Uryftw on Mon, 18 March 2019, 09:13:11
Post by: Anaconda on Tue, 19 March 2019, 09:53:54
Post by: KaosJ on Tue, 19 March 2019, 15:08:44
3u... i bet gmk/sa will start producing them in the future.
Pretty sure it will not happen. No one uses 3u stabs except this gb apparently.
Post by: RDaneelOlivaw on Tue, 19 March 2019, 21:04:27
Personally im fine with 3u spacebars, there are options for them and i bet gmk/sa will start producing them in the future. Other than that cherry stabs are a must and i do really think there should be a a normal solderable version of the pcb. Most people who are buying the most expensive kit will be enthusiasts and at least for me hot swap is a con when you are talking about a $500 keyboard.
Just curious: why would you consider hot swap a con?
Post by: cyriously on Tue, 19 March 2019, 22:52:07
Uni660 first IC poll was heavily in favour of 3u spacebar.3u... i bet gmk/sa will start producing them in the future.
Pretty sure it will not happen. No one uses 3u stabs except this gb apparently.
But after many feedback, the designer settle with 2.25/2.75 regardless of IC poll results.
Post by: Anakey on Wed, 20 March 2019, 03:20:53
Post by: _ODIN_ on Wed, 20 March 2019, 07:24:50
The problem with hotswap sockets is that it can be quite hard to get the pins into the hotswap sockets themselves so there is a chance to accidentally force the socket off from the pcb potentially damaging traces should the solder pads also come away from the pcb. Plus for such a high end board as this you should already know what switches you want and are happy with the selection so you would not need to swap them anyway except if there is a faulty switch. Also doing away with the need for hotswap sockets means the pcb can be more flexible in terms of layouts as the total footprint of the sockets are massive compared to the normal holes for the switch.This
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Post by: Sylanthra on Wed, 20 March 2019, 18:17:04
The problem with hotswap sockets is that it can be quite hard to get the pins into the hotswap sockets themselves so there is a chance to accidentally force the socket off from the pcb potentially damaging traces should the solder pads also come away from the pcb. Plus for such a high end board as this you should already know what switches you want and are happy with the selection so you would not need to swap them anyway except if there is a faulty switch. Also doing away with the need for hotswap sockets means the pcb can be more flexible in terms of layouts as the total footprint of the sockets are massive compared to the normal holes for the switch.
I've personally never had an issue with hotswap sockets ditaching from the board, but I suppose it is possible. As for "knowing which switches you want", not so much. I change switches on the boards that I use quite often to try out new types so I would vastly prefer having hotswabable board rather than having to make the mod myself.
Post by: homerowco on Wed, 20 March 2019, 19:04:05
I have pretty much every split keyboard there is and I tell you, it has to have VEA style split space so it's compatible with existing split space kits etc. plus even if there is no kit, you can make it work with other keys of 2.25/2.75 size.
I saw the 3u favorite poll with the uni660, this happened later on - in the beginning VEA style split was leading far ahead. I told them the same on discord too that I think the 3u requests are from people having retail boards that have 3u split space and just don't know anything else or don't realize how rare it is in reality.
please do not do 3u, it would literally make it useless and it would be a shame not to get this keyboard just because no keyset would fit.
think about it like that, if you do 3u you will make a lot of people not buy it. if you do a standard format like the VEA split you will get all the orders that wouldnt order with 3u + the ones that would order either or. if you change it, we all win.
Post by: Anaconda on Thu, 21 March 2019, 10:17:31
Unless the plate is really well made the sockets aren't tight enough to hold the switches in place, and personally i feel the sockets negatively affect the typing experience. There is also the problem of the sockets coming loose and solderable pcb gives more layout options.Personally im fine with 3u spacebars, there are options for them and i bet gmk/sa will start producing them in the future. Other than that cherry stabs are a must and i do really think there should be a a normal solderable version of the pcb. Most people who are buying the most expensive kit will be enthusiasts and at least for me hot swap is a con when you are talking about a $500 keyboard.
Just curious: why would you consider hot swap a con?
Post by: KaosJ on Thu, 21 March 2019, 16:28:12
this looked super existing until i saw it's 3u...
I have pretty much every split keyboard there is and I tell you, it has to have VEA style split space so it's compatible with existing split space kits etc. plus even if there is no kit, you can make it work with other keys of 2.25/2.75 size.
I saw the 3u favorite poll with the uni660, this happened later on - in the beginning VEA style split was leading far ahead. I told them the same on discord too that I think the 3u requests are from people having retail boards that have 3u split space and just don't know anything else or don't realize how rare it is in reality.
please do not do 3u, it would literally make it useless and it would be a shame not to get this keyboard just because no keyset would fit.
think about it like that, if you do 3u you will make a lot of people not buy it. if you do a standard format like the VEA split you will get all the orders that wouldnt order with 3u + the ones that would order either or. if you change it, we all win.
This
I'm not even sure if nine-fox (OP) is still reading this post.
Literally everyone except 2 new accounts disagree with 3u (expected) and most likely no one will buy this board with 3u and costars at the price of this board. I hope at least OP is still reading and saw our feedback (no answers so far, even a "let me think" after all this feedback would be good).
Post by: ullr on Thu, 21 March 2019, 17:05:55
On the other hand I don't like the fad of having a modifier key to the right of the left spacebar, not sure why it is so common.
To keep all of the case dimensions the same I would suggest
left: 1.5 1 1.5 2.75
right: 2.75 1.5 1 1 1 1 1
But you can't please everybody
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 22 March 2019, 01:58:26
I actually like costar stabs, but 3u caps are very nearly a deal breaker. The only keycap sets I would even consider buying that have 3u space bars are MT3 profile and they don't go on sale very often.
On the other hand I don't like the fad of having a modifier key to the right of the left spacebar, not sure why it is so common.
To keep all of the case dimensions the same I would suggest
left: 1.5 1 1.5 2.75
right: 2.75 1.5 1 1 1 1 1
But you can't please everybody
Unless the plate is really well made the sockets aren't tight enough to hold the switches in place, and personally i feel the sockets negatively affect the typing experience. There is also the problem of the sockets coming loose and solderable pcb gives more layout options.Personally im fine with 3u spacebars, there are options for them and i bet gmk/sa will start producing them in the future. Other than that cherry stabs are a must and i do really think there should be a a normal solderable version of the pcb. Most people who are buying the most expensive kit will be enthusiasts and at least for me hot swap is a con when you are talking about a $500 keyboard.
Just curious: why would you consider hot swap a con?
this looked super existing until i saw it's 3u...
I have pretty much every split keyboard there is and I tell you, it has to have VEA style split space so it's compatible with existing split space kits etc. plus even if there is no kit, you can make it work with other keys of 2.25/2.75 size.
I saw the 3u favorite poll with the uni660, this happened later on - in the beginning VEA style split was leading far ahead. I told them the same on discord too that I think the 3u requests are from people having retail boards that have 3u split space and just don't know anything else or don't realize how rare it is in reality.
please do not do 3u, it would literally make it useless and it would be a shame not to get this keyboard just because no keyset would fit.
think about it like that, if you do 3u you will make a lot of people not buy it. if you do a standard format like the VEA split you will get all the orders that wouldnt order with 3u + the ones that would order either or. if you change it, we all win.
This
I'm not even sure if nine-fox (OP) is still reading this post.
Literally everyone except 2 new accounts disagree with 3u (expected) and most likely no one will buy this board with 3u and costars at the price of this board. I hope at least OP is still reading and saw our feedback (no answers so far, even a "let me think" after all this feedback would be good).
this looked super existing until i saw it's 3u...
I have pretty much every split keyboard there is and I tell you, it has to have VEA style split space so it's compatible with existing split space kits etc. plus even if there is no kit, you can make it work with other keys of 2.25/2.75 size.
I saw the 3u favorite poll with the uni660, this happened later on - in the beginning VEA style split was leading far ahead. I told them the same on discord too that I think the 3u requests are from people having retail boards that have 3u split space and just don't know anything else or don't realize how rare it is in reality.
please do not do 3u, it would literally make it useless and it would be a shame not to get this keyboard just because no keyset would fit.
think about it like that, if you do 3u you will make a lot of people not buy it. if you do a standard format like the VEA split you will get all the orders that wouldnt order with 3u + the ones that would order either or. if you change it, we all win.
Thank you for your comments!
Been busy these days, working on another GB (just opened, see http://nine-fox.github.io/pad) so my reply is late. Sorry for that.
Actually, I do not think 3u spacebar is un-acceptable. Take tex yoda II for example, even the keycap needs cutting, lots of people still need it - the most important one is that, it has trackpoint support (I am sure author tex yoda is aware of this, and then gmk keycap for tex yoda is out).
Another example is, mistel 68 split keyboard. That keyboard is *like* 3u, but not 3u. But still, it is on the market. The most important thing is, its the *only* one split keyboard which support RGB.
Considering the fact I have went so far, I will focus on 3u as for now(will change in R2 if there is), even interest check failed at outer China.
"You can't have it both ways".
Another good news is that, I been reached some keycap manufacturers in China, and customized keycaps (including 3u) can be supplied. I can design keycaps if I have time :-)
Post by: Anakey on Fri, 22 March 2019, 06:09:04
Post by: Poesjuh on Fri, 22 March 2019, 06:46:54
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Post by: _ODIN_ on Fri, 22 March 2019, 07:29:41
I see a failed IC/GB coming which is a shame for such an interesting project :(Yeah. What is the point of an IC when you are not willing to adjust the product?
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Post by: homerowco on Fri, 22 March 2019, 08:19:07
I see a failed IC/GB coming which is a shame for such an interesting project :(Yeah. What is the point of an IC when you are not willing to adjust the product?
Well, here is the issue... uni660 for example had maybe 500 votes? some 200 were for 3u - it's that insane.
People on retail boards like the tex/manila etc. are used to seeing 3u spacebars. The market in Asia for those boards is massive. So the GB wouldn't fail at all, he still will sell more than a similar GB in the US would sell for the same price even if the board is $600 - but he is excluding everyone that owns custom keysets and knows how hard it is to make 3u work, as in you can't.
Just a heads up, over the past 4-5 years I have argued with many people, many times about 3u as being total nonsense and I pretty much gave up because there is always 2-3 people saying it's "fine" because there "are sets available" - whichever sets those are. So these days I normally don't even comment on it anymore. You make a switch plate and a pcb that does not support split even though it only takes you 3 more switch footprints and an optional universal plate that you can easy run with the price you're going to sell the keyboard for? I won't buy it. You make a split keyboard with 3u? I wont buy it... this time I say something because I really like the concept.
Yeah, not sure why this is even an issue... could just support 3u and VEA split... from a technical standpoint that shouldn't be big issue. make the PCB support it, make different plates, rest of the keyboard stays the same. Everything is happy.
Anyway, it wont fail but it wont have as many sales as he could have. I'm going to look forward to V2 then, assuming it would also fix possible design issues we might benefit from this after all ;)
Post by: Vigrith on Fri, 22 March 2019, 10:06:06
All in all, if the two versions cannot be offered at the same time, the only rational way to proceed is to just run it twice. Looking forward to that.
Post by: KaosJ on Sat, 23 March 2019, 06:08:13
Thank you for your comments!
Been busy these days, working on another GB (just opened, see http://nine-fox.github.io/pad) so my reply is late. Sorry for that.
Actually, I do not think 3u spacebar is un-acceptable. Take tex yoda II for example, even the keycap needs cutting, lots of people still need it - the most important one is that, it has trackpoint support (I am sure author tex yoda is aware of this, and then gmk keycap for tex yoda is out).
Another example is, mistel 68 split keyboard. That keyboard is *like* 3u, but not 3u. But still, it is on the market. The most important thing is, its the *only* one split keyboard which support RGB.
Considering the fact I have went so far, I will focus on 3u as for now(will change in R2 if there is), even interest check failed at outer China.
"You can't have it both ways".
Please do not try to compare or imitate a mistel keyboard with our custom keyboards. Mistel are good products along massproduced keyboards but you are trying to target a niche market (geekhack/reddit/keebtalk) so you shouldn't take the Mistel as source of ideas.
I really hope that you do a R2, making pcb stabilizers+ 2.25/2.75 possible, since this R1 is clearly for China only. I believe the number of keyboards you can sell on GH/Reddit/Keebtalk is Wei higher than what you can sell in China, so don't get discouraged when you will see max 5-10 orders from outside china on this R1.
Quote
Another good news is that, I been reached some keycap manufacturers in China, and customized keycaps (including 3u) can be supplied. I can design keycaps if I have time :-)
To be honest, we don't care, we want our GMK/SA keysets to match, no mixed profile or colors on our keyboards.
We spend a lot on keysets, so we won't have spacebars with different shades of colors/material/profile.
Post by: Poesjuh on Sat, 23 March 2019, 07:05:49
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Post by: KaosJ on Sat, 23 March 2019, 07:09:41
Wei higher, I see what you did there...
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;)
Post by: HomerSp on Tue, 26 March 2019, 08:17:47
Post by: cyriously on Tue, 26 March 2019, 10:35:33
Looks like the web site is down... Bad news for this IC?They changed the domain http://trkeyboard.com
Post by: HomerSp on Tue, 26 March 2019, 11:43:53
Post by: blawb on Mon, 01 April 2019, 19:40:47
Post by: nine-fox on Mon, 01 April 2019, 19:43:01
Oh yeah, sorry - I must have missed that, thank you!
Due to china law, it will take some days to register nine-fox.com for china mainland.
It will be back online soon.
Sorry for the inconvience. IC can be submitted at trkeyboard.com
Post by: HomerSp on Fri, 05 April 2019, 08:45:28
Thanks, already sent in the IC! :thumb:Oh yeah, sorry - I must have missed that, thank you!
Due to china law, it will take some days to register nine-fox.com for china mainland.
It will be back online soon.
Sorry for the inconvience. IC can be submitted at trkeyboard.com
Post by: nine-fox on Fri, 12 April 2019, 10:42:35
Thanks, already sent in the IC! :thumb:Oh yeah, sorry - I must have missed that, thank you!
Due to china law, it will take some days to register nine-fox.com for china mainland.
It will be back online soon.
Sorry for the inconvience. IC can be submitted at trkeyboard.com
Thanks for your Ic!
Good news, nine-fox.com is back online! ;)
Post by: homerowco on Thu, 09 May 2019, 13:40:37
Thanks, already sent in the IC! :thumb:Oh yeah, sorry - I must have missed that, thank you!
Due to china law, it will take some days to register nine-fox.com for china mainland.
It will be back online soon.
Sorry for the inconvience. IC can be submitted at trkeyboard.com
Thanks for your Ic!
Good news, nine-fox.com is back online! ;)
with 2.25/2.75u split? :D
Post by: nine-fox on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:02:40
Thanks, already sent in the IC! :thumb:Oh yeah, sorry - I must have missed that, thank you!
Due to china law, it will take some days to register nine-fox.com for china mainland.
It will be back online soon.
Sorry for the inconvience. IC can be submitted at trkeyboard.com
Thanks for your Ic!
Good news, nine-fox.com is back online! ;)
with 2.25/2.75u split? :D
No, unfortunately. The first target is to start prototyping as soon as possible.
None wants to wait another 43 years.
Post by: FatOldGuy on Sat, 25 May 2019, 10:13:22
Post by: Retrias on Sun, 26 May 2019, 03:05:06
Post by: rondg on Sun, 26 May 2019, 03:32:13
This is the only keyboard that managed to fulfill 90% of my wants
I hope the price won't be more expensive than 90% of my keyboards.. Combined..
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 26 May 2019, 09:58:54
After seeing Lowpoly's perfect looking TrackPoint keyboard went through 3 prototyping phase and not yet good enough,
Rather than just renders, I really want to see a few working prototypes in videos, before attempting to talk about taking people's money.
Post by: homerowco on Thu, 06 June 2019, 13:10:33
This is perhaps at the moment one of the most ambitious Gb projects, in terms of machining and electronics.
After seeing Lowpoly's perfect looking TrackPoint keyboard went through 3 prototyping phase and not yet good enough,
Rather than just renders, I really want to see a few working prototypes in videos, before attempting to talk about taking people's money.
... and have the 3u split spacebars replaced with 2.25 and 2.75 :P
Post by: Walkerstop on Tue, 02 July 2019, 18:13:12
Costar stabs
Closed source firmware
3 strikes you're out
Post by: Damonskv on Thu, 05 September 2019, 14:41:54
Post by: nine-fox on Sat, 14 September 2019, 23:05:30
Hey, is there any updates on project?
Thanks for your asking.
Well, I just finished group buy of NINE-FOX Pad, and has been started working on this split keyboard
For reference, the editor online version for Pad is as follows, please take a look(The Tr. keyboard will have the same way to change the layout and settings):
https://nine-fox.com/editor
Also, I have done a project to display the Tr. keyboard keysets:
https://www.nine-fox.com/editor/#/keysetViewer
There is a page to introduce it, but its Chinese: https://www.zfrontier.com/post/detail/16027
Post by: nine-fox on Sat, 14 September 2019, 23:19:09
3u spacebar
Costar stabs
Closed source firmware
3 strikes you're out
Well, so you are not one of my customers ;D
BTW, I mainly developed it for myself. Self interests purpose. Even none is interested, I will prototype it anyway
Post by: Retrias on Sun, 15 September 2019, 02:24:38
Post by: Poesjuh on Sun, 15 September 2019, 08:02:26
Post by: nine-fox on Sun, 15 September 2019, 11:57:45
I understand that you make a keyboard for yourself. You do however post an IC to ask for feedback yet refuse to do anything with that feedback.
Thanks for your reply.
Right, the limtations determines that I can not fulfill everyone.
I can only balance among price, design, and time cost.
Ps, the design has been changed a lot these days. I didnt post, does not mean I am not working on it.
Next time I will post the factory prototype
Post by: Poesjuh on Sun, 15 September 2019, 17:19:52
I understand that you make a keyboard for yourself. You do however post an IC to ask for feedback yet refuse to do anything with that feedback.
Thanks for your reply.
Right, the limtations determines that I can not fulfill everyone.
I can only balance among price, design, and time cost.
Ps, the design has been changed a lot these days. I didnt post, does not mean I am not working on it.
Next time I will post the factory prototype
I understand that :)
There is one thing that basically everybody is shouting though, and that is to toss the 3u spacebars and go for 2.25 and 2.75. It appears you're not doing anything with that alienating a LOT of potential buyers. If that's your choice that's obviously up to you, just seems odd to me.
Just my 2 cents.
Post by: Retrias on Mon, 16 September 2019, 01:35:00
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 24 January 2020, 20:37:26
Super necro, but has there been any future progress updates on this keyboard?
Really awesome design and while I generally agree with the feedback regarding 3u spacebars, was kind of offput by the high severity of negativity read in here. Hope the projects not dead!