'Dox questions

[pexon]

Would you be able to use a 'Dox with 2 Mini USB cables, instead of the horrible choice of TRRS cables. I know you'd need another Teensy, I am just brain storming here.

[regack]

Would you be able to use a 'Dox with 2 Mini USB cables, instead of the horrible choice of TRRS cables. I know you'd need another Teensy, I am just brain storming here.

Yes, you could redesign it to use a mini or micro usb as the interconnect.  You'd then have to make a cable, but I guess that wouldn't be a problem for you .

[Findecanor]

Just to be sure: You are talking about ErgoDox now, and not another keyboard? I think that Dox's called his first custom "Dox".

Yes, you could build them as two independent keyboards, each plugged in to the same host via its own USB cable and they will be recognized by programs as if there was only one keyboard.
I have quickly tested plugging in multiples of various regular keyboards on both MacOS, Windows and Linux, and it worked on all of them. You can hold Shift on one keyboard and press 'a' on another and you will get upper-case 'A'.

The left half-keyboard needs to be built as the right, just with the components on the other side and upside-down.
If you use Litsters' case design with layers of acrylic, some layers would need to be as on the right side, or you need to modify them. The CAD files are on ergodox.org.
You would need to install different modified firmware on each, also.

[mooswa]

Hmm, but that wouldn't allow switching layer with one hand and typing with the other.

[pexon]

Just to be sure: You are talking about ErgoDox now, and not another keyboard? I think that Dox's called his first custom "Dox".

Yes, you could build them as two independent keyboards, each plugged in to the same host via its own USB cable and they will be recognized by programs as if there was only one keyboard.
I have quickly tested plugging in multiples of various regular keyboards on both MacOS, Windows and Linux, and it worked on all of them. You can hold Shift on one keyboard and press 'a' on another and you will get upper-case 'A'.

The left half-keyboard needs to be built as the right, just with the components on the other side and upside-down.
If you use Litsters' case design with layers of acrylic, some layers would need to be as on the right side, or you need to modify them. The CAD files are on ergodox.org.
You would need to install different modified firmware on each, also.

Just the info I was after, it is actually for 2 friends who have picked up the Ergo-dox, we were just skyping and discussing ideas on cables for them, 2x Mini USB cables would be better than 1 Mini and a horrible TRRS.

[kod]

What's so bad about TRRS cables?

[pexon]

I would have implemented something like a Mini USB, hell a Mini XLR would be balla!

[Findecanor]

Just the info I was after, it is actually for 2 friends who have picked up the Ergo-dox, we were just skyping and discussing ideas on cables for them, 2x Mini USB cables would be better than 1 Mini and a horrible TRRS.

Or...

You could find some kind of small 6-lead connector (SATA maybe?), find a good way to attach the plug firmly inside the ErgoDox case and make a custom Y-cable that duplicates the USB lines to both half-keyboards but uses two lines to connect the two halves via I²C. Because you would duplicate the USB lines, you could do away with the two lines for +5V and GND that the TRRS cable would have carried.
You could connect either plug to either half-keyboard, the left side would just not use D+ and D-.
Beside the plug, the ErgoDox would remain conventional and you would lose no functionality.

I think I mentioned this idea in a PM to you quite a while ago... At least I asked you about a small six-lead plug.

[pexon]

The custom Y cable was exactly what I was thinking of as an alternative, thanks for the help man, much appreciated.

[Misterorjoe]

What's wrong with TRRS?

[pexon]

I don't like them personally, I think there could have been a better implementation. We were just shooting ideas about, there are a lack of good quality TRRS jacks that we can get our hands on, so we were discussing the possibility of using different cables

[steve.v]

What's so bad about TRRS cables?

There seems to be a number of people with the trrs cables and or connectors issues within a year into the ergodox; threads on here and also Desk authority has their comments.

[MOZ]

This is one of the reasons I am redesigning the ErgoDox with microusb connectors only

[daerid]

I2C doesn't actually need the TRRS connectors, right? Any four conductor cable would do the trick?

[regack]

I2C doesn't actually need the TRRS connectors, right? Any four conductor cable would do the trick?

Yes, any 4 conductor interconnect would work.   I2C only needs two wires, but you have to get the Vcc and Gnd across somehow as well, hence the 4. 

[daerid]

Yes, any 4 conductor interconnect would work.   I2C only needs two wires, but you have to get the Vcc and Gnd across somehow as well, hence the 4. 

Ahhhh that makes sense. So a micro USB would actually work. Would have to mod the PCB though...

[daerid]

I wonder why they went with TRRS instead of Micro USB? Lord knows the cables would be easier to find.

[jacobolus]

I wonder why they went with TRRS instead of Micro USB? Lord knows the cables would be easier to find.

If it was male micro USB on both ends, I doubt it would be all that easy to find cables....

[daerid]

If it was male micro USB on both ends, I doubt it would be all that easy to find cables....

Huh, you're right. Apparently the spec dictates that master devices and slave devices have different ports/connectors.

Back to the drawing board.

[Oobly]

4-pin Firewire could be an option: http://www.cablestogo.com/product/27290

Or RJ11 or RJ12. With RJ12 you could also have some LED lines going to the half without the controller, although the RJ11 wires are thinner and more flexible. You can even get some nice coiled cables commercially (made for telephones), or you can crimp your own if you have a crimping tool.

Microsoft have used RJ11 plugs on some peripherals where there are more than 1 component, such as the Xbox360 wheel and pedals. The pedal cable is RJ11. It's like a mini Network connector (RJ45).

IF I ever get my ergo board design finished I may use RJ11 between the halves, something like this: http://www.shaxon.com/part_images/12/ER230-6xx.jpg

[agodinhost]

why not one JST connector?
I don't have any problem with the TRRS - IMHO it's the best option to use with I2C - unfortunately this connector is kinda hard to find worldwide with a decent price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-JST-1-25mm-4-Pin-Connector-plug-w-Wire-x-10-sets-/161210326170?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2588e25c9a

[jacobolus]

RJ11 seems like a solid choice. TRRS also seems okay. I don’t think there are any other obvious alternatives.

It’s too bad there aren’t more connectors designed for general purpose use which are (1) small, (2) sturdy enough (at the jack) to withstand being unplugged and replugged every day for years (if the cable breaks it’s easy to replace so whatever), (3) cheap, (4) widely available with a variety of different cables.

[daerid]

JST I don't think would stand up to the rigors of real world connections/disconnections. RJ11 seems like a solid choice, although a little bulky.

[MOZ]

TRRS is actually fine, however, in most places it si easier to source the barrel design receptacle as compared to the one used in the ErgoDox, which was a bit of a problem for those doing there own assembly.

MicroUSB is easy enough to find and I think it a pretty solid choice, RJ11 seems a little too big IMO.

[jacobolus]

MicroUSB is easy enough to find and I think it a pretty solid choice, RJ11 seems a little too big IMO.

Where do you expect to find cables with male MicroUSB on both ends? Or are you just going to make custom cables for it?

[MOZ]

Make it.

[Larken]

You could use any 4-wire cable/connector you want, as long as you're willing to hotwire certain points. This includes anything from micro-usb, 4 pin mini-xlr, rj11. Or even hardwire the two halves together with 4 unterminated wires.

That said, I don't see much difference between using trrs and other connectors, other than what MOZ pointed out about availability of the specific jacks used by the ergodox.

Its not impossible to use panel mounted mini-xlr jacks if you wish to; just wire it internally to the right pins. But other than micro-usb, most of the other connectors use a larger profile, and rj11 while easily available ready made, are imo harder to make as a hobbyist to get custom lengths.

I personally like mini-xlr alot due to making audio cables with them, but they have a much larger footprint in terms of general size to fit into the ergodox case, and also stick out alot more than most aftermarket trrs plugs.

Or you could simply buy a pair of male+female 4 pin mini-xlr, and hardwire each connector to the pcbs, and connect them in between. As long as you use decent wires, pretty much any of the options will last.

[MOZ]

Micro-USB ---> Mini-USB, easy enough to find cables on ebay.

[daerid]

Micro-USB ---> Mini-USB, easy enough to find cables on ebay.

I would like something a bit more reliable than mini-usb. TRRS is fine, and can stand up to more connections/disconnections than the usb ports, the 'Dox just needs a much more reliable TRRS jack.

[agodinhost]

Micro-USB ---> Mini-USB, easy enough to find cables on ebay.

I would like something a bit more reliable than mini-usb. TRRS is fine, and can stand up to more connections/disconnections than the usb ports, the 'Dox just needs a much more reliable TRRS jack.

Agreed.

[tricheboars]

is it just the trrs connectors digikey sells that suck?  with all the smartphones in the world it is really suprising to me that trrs connectors are so hard to come by. i know the chinese and koreans are making high quality trrs ports. how come we cant source some out of asia rather than digikey?

[luis911]

is it just the trrs connectors digikey sells that suck?  with all the smartphones in the world it is really suprising to me that trrs connectors are so hard to come by. i know the chinese and koreans are making high quality trrs ports. how come we cant source some out of asia rather than digikey?

Perhaps All the large trrs manufacturers only like to deal with extremely large orders(multi million dollar contracts), and since there are small orders are rare, the smaller manufacturers which previously took smaller orders where taken out of business by the large manufacturers. Thats just my guess.

[tricheboars]

is it just the trrs connectors digikey sells that suck?  with all the smartphones in the world it is really suprising to me that trrs connectors are so hard to come by. i know the chinese and koreans are making high quality trrs ports. how come we cant source some out of asia rather than digikey?

Perhaps All the large trrs manufacturers only like to deal with extremely large orders(multi million dollar contracts), and since there are small orders are rare, the smaller manufacturers which previously took smaller orders where taken out of business by the large manufacturers. Thats just my guess.

mouser and onlinecomponents.com never have trrs connectors?! man here i was thinking i could find anything electronic on mouser if i needed.

also there has to be a digikey like company in asia that can get a hold of trrs connectors that are made better than digikey's offerings. i believe!

[Oobly]

Farnell seems to have good number to choose from:

http://fi.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=215505+110058026+110128012+110488721&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=fi_FI&divisionLocale=fi_FI&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=215505+110058026+110128012&mm=1000785||,100000||,1002885||,1002541||,1002208||,1002950||,1002264||,1002724||,1002738||,&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&autoApply=false&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN%3D215505%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Dfi_FI%26divisionLocale%3Dfi_FI%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D215505

Sorry about the link size, had to specify a lot of criteria to narrow it down. They should all be 4 way (trrs) jack sockets.
 
You need to find a local store that has a Farnell account and then you can order from them. Just quote the Farnell part number for them.

I think these and RJ11 are the best options for this kind of application. Support quite many connects / disconnects, make a secure enough connection, not too big (although RJ11 is in the upper region of acceptibility) and have fairly easy to find commercial cables / plugs to match.

[agodinhost]

is it just the trrs connectors digikey sells that suck?  with all the smartphones in the world it is really suprising to me that trrs connectors are so hard to come by. i know the chinese and koreans are making high quality trrs ports. how come we cant source some out of asia rather than digikey?

Perhaps All the large trrs manufacturers only like to deal with extremely large orders(multi million dollar contracts), and since there are small orders are rare, the smaller manufacturers which previously took smaller orders where taken out of business by the large manufacturers. Thats just my guess.

mouser and onlinecomponents.com never have trrs connectors?! man here i was thinking i could find anything electronic on mouser if i needed.

also there has to be a digikey like company in asia that can get a hold of trrs connectors that are made better than digikey's offerings. i believe!

Normally they have it in stock, this is not the problem.
The problem is the worldwide shipping: mouser, farnell, digikey, etc - they usually only ship via FEDEX or UPS and it is quite expensive for us outsiders ...

[jacobolus]

Farnell is a British company, with plenty of worldwide distributors: http://export.farnell.com/jsp/home/exportHome.jsp?_requestid=184976

[Oobly]

Farnell is a British company, with plenty of worldwide distributors: http://export.farnell.com/jsp/home/exportHome.jsp?_requestid=184976

And they have warehouses in US, too.

[agodinhost]

Farnell is a British company, with plenty of worldwide distributors: http://export.farnell.com/jsp/home/exportHome.jsp?_requestid=184976

yup, however let me rephrase what I said above:
- FEDEX or UPS are quite expensive for anyone not in CONUS.
For the non-americans it sucks ...

For instance:
I need some TRRS connectors, US$ 1.38 each on digikey - so when you go to the checkout you will see that the cheaper shipping option does cost US$ 40!
Still, with some luck, you will find this very same usb connector on ebay per 50 cents each ...

Moz mentioned one usb connector, how about the 1394?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-USB-4-Pin-Female-Socket-Connector-1394-Series-4-Legs-HW-1394-4F-02-/180946076934?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a213a0506

The cable connector is compact and is kinda easy to find (easier than the TRRS connector)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IEEE-1394-Firewire-4-Pin-to-4-Pin-Male-M-1-5m-5ft-Extension-Cable-/221276987603?pt=US_FireWire_Cables_Adapters&hash=item338522e0d3

[jacobolus]

yup, however let me rephrase what I said above:
- FEDEX or UPS are quite expensive for anyone not in CONUS.
For the non-americans it sucks ...

So you can’t get a reasonable shipping price, in Brazil, from http://www.farnell.com.br ? That sucks.

[Findecanor]

There is an alternative TRRS socket. It has the number FC68129, and it is virtually identical to the recommended socket except that it has a couple more pins that need to be snipped off (or rather: bent back and forth until they break) to fit it into the ErgoDox PCB.
I have confirmed that the FC68129 works - I fired up my ErgoDox (sans switches) last night, shorted some pins on the left hand-side and got correct output.

I bought it locally because of DigiKey's shipping prices. Digikey has a Swedish site, but still ships things from abroad at a ridiculous price. F**k them! I took the bike to the local Elfa store and bought mine over the counter.
The MCP23018 E-SP I/O expanders were more difficult to find locally. I bought five of them from mixelec.fr with a more reasonable, but odd intra-Europe postage of 4.646 Euros. I got a few extras for possible customs or if someone else locally would need one.

[agodinhost]

yup, however let me rephrase what I said above:
- FEDEX or UPS are quite expensive for anyone not in CONUS.
For the non-americans it sucks ...

So you can’t get a reasonable shipping price, in Brazil, from http://www.farnell.com.br ? That sucks.

Yup, I can't.
Seems that Farnell changed a bit - I just tried one normal usb connectors there and I got a shipping close to 15 bucks (way better than what I do remember from my past experiences on Farnell).

There is an alternative TRRS socket. It has the number FC68129, and it is virtually identical to the recommended socket except that it has a couple more pins that need to be snipped off (or rather: bent back and forth until they break) to fit it into the ErgoDox PCB.
I have confirmed that the FC68129 works - I fired up my ErgoDox (sans switches) last night, shorted some pins on the left hand-side and got correct output.

Weird site! Gosh
So, this connector seems to be good, however I'm afraid that it's availability is still low ...