[GB] KAT Refined *** FIRST SETS DELIVERED ***

[popkorn62]

Is there any way to confirm whether the production caps will have the original KAT profile? Or the changed profile being shown with early recipients of KAT Cyberspace? 

I sent in my cancellation order today because I am quite concerned that the profile could be changed without any notice.  That's too big of a risk IMO, but if there's a way to confirm the original profile, I may have a few days to "un-cancel" my order with Mekibo.

I have spoken to zF regarding this and he explained that KAT Cyberspace is using a semi-translucent plastic with GiD agents mixed in, so not their regular PBT blend and that would show small physical characteristic difference.

Moreover, in order for the sculpt to change dramatically, it will require Keycreative to overhaul their jigs used for dyesubbing which is not what they are doing.

We have requested to have both KAT Alphas (old molds) and KAT Refined’s next round of samples to be sent at the same time for comparison. Short answer is yes, the height profile will stay the same.

[MacSurfy]

Sample photos (mobile phone).

[andrew4]

Black on white look great. Shame I bought white on black :-( I hope there's extras!

Sent from my XQ-AT51 using Tapatalk

[Zanhana]

I have spoken to zF regarding this and he explained that KAT Cyberspace is using a semi-translucent plastic with GiD agents mixed in, so not their regular PBT blend and that would show small physical characteristic difference.

Moreover, in order for the sculpt to change dramatically, it will require Keycreative to overhaul their jigs used for dyesubbing which is not what they are doing.

We have requested to have both KAT Alphas (old molds) and KAT Refined’s next round of samples to be sent at the same time for comparison. Short answer is yes, the height profile will stay the same.

so if I'm understanding correctly, the upshot is that the weird shape of KAT Cyberspace is a result of the GiD plastic, not a change/update to KAT profile? and that Refined should look the way KAT usually looks?

[popkorn62]

I have spoken to zF regarding this and he explained that KAT Cyberspace is using a semi-translucent plastic with GiD agents mixed in, so not their regular PBT blend and that would show small physical characteristic difference.

Moreover, in order for the sculpt to change dramatically, it will require Keycreative to overhaul their jigs used for dyesubbing which is not what they are doing.

We have requested to have both KAT Alphas (old molds) and KAT Refined’s next round of samples to be sent at the same time for comparison. Short answer is yes, the height profile will stay the same.

so if I'm understanding correctly, the upshot is that the weird shape of KAT Cyberspace is a result of the GiD plastic, not a change/update to KAT profile? and that Refined should look the way KAT usually looks?

That is correct. Any changes in the shape isn't intentional.

I have requested both KAT Alphas and KAT Refined samples to be sent at the same time to compare.

[Adelscott]

I have spoken to zF regarding this and he explained that KAT Cyberspace is using a semi-translucent plastic with GiD agents mixed in, so not their regular PBT blend and that would show small physical characteristic difference.

Moreover, in order for the sculpt to change dramatically, it will require Keycreative to overhaul their jigs used for dyesubbing which is not what they are doing.

We have requested to have both KAT Alphas (old molds) and KAT Refined’s next round of samples to be sent at the same time for comparison. Short answer is yes, the height profile will stay the same.

so if I'm understanding correctly, the upshot is that the weird shape of KAT Cyberspace is a result of the GiD plastic, not a change/update to KAT profile? and that Refined should look the way KAT usually looks?

That is correct. Any changes in the shape isn't intentional.

I have requested both KAT Alphas and KAT Refined samples to be sent at the same time to compare.

My KAT Milkshake alphas are not the same profile as my KAT Hyperfuse alphas. And there's no GID or reverse dyesub involved. Left and right side are less rounded, they definitively changed the profile.

[Rico]

Your samples looks great MacSurfy !

[kwhilden]

It's interesting to hear confirmation that the profile shape has changed a bit with the newest delivered GB sets.  It's pretty obvious visually. 

I think it looks a bit more like a cherry profile cap. Still different of course.. but approaching cherry with spherical tops. 

I guess that's a good thing.  Although I was a fan of the wide pillowy original shape, which is unique.

[fauxLeather]

I think it looks a bit more like a cherry profile cap. Still different of course.. but approaching cherry with spherical tops. 

I guess that's a good thing.

If I wanted a Cherry-like profile I would’ve bought keycaps from any other manufacturer and avoid all of keyreative’s problems. This is my first keycap GB, and I joined because that was about the time when pictures of Eternal were getting around and showcasing the profile. It doesn’t seem right to me that keyreative can then make changes to the profile over the course of a year or two without warning. The profile was the one redeeming thing about the entire manufacturer.

[MacSurfy]

I think it looks a bit more like a cherry profile cap. Still different of course.. but approaching cherry with spherical tops. 

I guess that's a good thing.

If I wanted a Cherry-like profile I would’ve bought keycaps from any other manufacturer and avoid all of keyreative’s problems. This is my first keycap GB, and I joined because that was about the time when pictures of Eternal were getting around and showcasing the profile. It doesn’t seem right to me that keyreative can then make changes to the profile over the course of a year or two without warning. The profile was the one redeeming thing about the entire manufacturer.

Before this discussion blows up completely (like it often does in this community) I am going to post this photo I made of an old cap vs. the new.
Maybe the difference is more pronounced on other rows? I don't know. Could be, but I have nothing to compare against.

From my understanding the Cyberspace caps had different materials so it had an impact on the sculpt/shape.

[Zanhana]

Before this discussion blows up completely (like it often does in this community) I am going to post this photo I made of an old cap vs. the new.
Maybe the difference is more pronounced on other rows? I don't know. Could be, but I have nothing to compare against.

From my understanding the Cyberspace caps had different materials so it had an impact on the sculpt/shape.

Show Image

sorry but these two caps look markedly different: the new cap is taller and narrower at the top, and the curves of the side walls have changed. imo it's one thing for Keyreative to move slowly or switch to doubleshot, but to change the physical shape of the profile itself is beyond the pale

[Mecxs]

sorry but these two caps look markedly different: the new cap is taller and narrower at the top, and the curves of the side walls have changed. imo it's one thing for Keyreative to move slowly or switch to doubleshot, but to change the physical shape of the profile itself is beyond the pale

Both caps are the exact same height measured from the base of the cap to the highest point, as well as the base of the cap to the lowest point.

The old cap has a sharper sloped curve on its left side (from the camera's perspective) relative to the left sided curve's slope on the new cap. However, the right sided curve's slope on the old cap is flatter than the right sided curve's slope on the new cap. This is because the camera is shooting the old cap from front-on, and the new cap from a slight angle.

Yes - you're correct, the two caps "look" different, because they've been photographed differently. I suspect that with proper photography, using a fixed camera and photographing both old and new in the exact same position, that the two profiles would be indistinguishable.

This is based of course solely on a single perspective of a single row profile, so it's about 5-10% of the total data needed to fully compare old vs new. Still, based on this photo alone I doubt that there would be anyone out there who could identify a single cap as being either "old" or "new" with better than 50% accuracy in a blinded test. If there are differences, they are remarkably minor - despite the appearance of the photo.

[MacSurfy]

sorry but these two caps look markedly different: the new cap is taller and narrower at the top, and the curves of the side walls have changed. imo it's one thing for Keyreative to move slowly or switch to doubleshot, but to change the physical shape of the profile itself is beyond the pale

They are not..  but it's almost impossible to capture in one photo (like mentioned in the post above). You'd have to place them exactly on the same spot to avoid lens distortion. I can't see a difference on the IRL caps by just holding them. I have to look underneath to see if they have a bridge or not to know which is which.

Keyreative told me the only difference is the height. The new caps are a little bit taller but the difference is again too small to notice on the row that I have. The biggest difference is on R5 which is approx 13.477 vs 13.40 and R1 is only 10.45 vs 10.454

That being said, I don't have all the row profiles to compare with so it's best if we wait for the next set(s) to be delivered. I just don't want people to get all riled up for nothing, this is really a non-issue for me at this moment. KAT Iron is next, so let's just wait for that one to come out and see some better pictures with all rows. It will tell us what is actually going on. Thank u.

[Zanhana]

okay, the two posts above have convinced me for the time being. with my apologies, I will look forward to seeing the set in person and hope that the differences really are negligible.

[MacSurfy]

okay, the two posts above have convinced me for the time being. with my apologies, I will look forward to seeing the set in person and hope that the differences really are negligible.

No worries. We are all hoping for the best. Hopefully KAT Iron will be shipping soon so then we will see/hear more about it.

[dvorcol]

Keyreative shared their estimated KAT/KAM production schedule - https://en.zfrontier.com/blogs/project-updates/keyreative-keyset-progress-report

[KaosJ]

Keyreative shared their estimated KAT/KAM production schedule - https://en.zfrontier.com/blogs/project-updates/keyreative-keyset-progress-report

Show Image

You are the MVP, thanks dvorcol!
Alright if the schedule is respected, we should have our caps around April 2022. 

[PantoneC]

I think it looks a bit more like a cherry profile cap. Still different of course.. but approaching cherry with spherical tops. 

I guess that's a good thing.

If I wanted a Cherry-like profile I would’ve bought keycaps from any other manufacturer and avoid all of keyreative’s problems. This is my first keycap GB, and I joined because that was about the time when pictures of Eternal were getting around and showcasing the profile. It doesn’t seem right to me that keyreative can then make changes to the profile over the course of a year or two without warning. The profile was the one redeeming thing about the entire manufacturer.

Before this discussion blows up completely (like it often does in this community) I am going to post this photo I made of an old cap vs. the new.
Maybe the difference is more pronounced on other rows? I don't know. Could be, but I have nothing to compare against.

From my understanding the Cyberspace caps had different materials so it had an impact on the sculpt/shape.

Show Image

As someone who is in the gb for both sets Thank You! for the consistant updates, also wanted to share some photo's comparision of kat Lich on left and kat cyberspace on right.
The typing feel is completely different there is less surface area for your fingers on new molds just not as good as older mold. Feels like keycreative attempted new mold to save on material. Really hope kat refined can use the original mold for production.
https://imgur.com/wsN8jjv[/img]
https://imgur.com/E5pFFid[/img]
https://imgur.com/WnTSiai[/img]

[Mecxs]

Do you have full base-kits of both sets?

If so - the best way to do a comparison would be to weight an equally kitted batch of each set. Make sure each batch has the exact same keys (in profile and size), and use as many keys as you can fit into each batch. If there's a significant difference between the two, that tells you one is using less plastic.

[Joaquox]

PBT costs like a dollar per kilo, a cap weighs less than a gram. The cost does not come from the raw material. One would like to think the cost comes from QC, but that can't be the case for Keyreative either.

More likely is that they changed the shape to make it work better with their dye sub tech. Maybe the narrower to makes alignment better, who knows?


I cancelled all my Refined though, this is it with KAT for me, I'm giving up and cutting losses where possible.

[MacSurfy]

I think it looks a bit more like a cherry profile cap. Still different of course.. but approaching cherry with spherical tops. 

I guess that's a good thing.

If I wanted a Cherry-like profile I would’ve bought keycaps from any other manufacturer and avoid all of keyreative’s problems. This is my first keycap GB, and I joined because that was about the time when pictures of Eternal were getting around and showcasing the profile. It doesn’t seem right to me that keyreative can then make changes to the profile over the course of a year or two without warning. The profile was the one redeeming thing about the entire manufacturer.

Before this discussion blows up completely (like it often does in this community) I am going to post this photo I made of an old cap vs. the new.
Maybe the difference is more pronounced on other rows? I don't know. Could be, but I have nothing to compare against.

From my understanding the Cyberspace caps had different materials so it had an impact on the sculpt/shape.

Show Image

As someone who is in the gb for both sets Thank You! for the consistant updates, also wanted to share some photo's comparision of kat Lich on left and kat cyberspace on right.
The typing feel is completely different there is less surface area for your fingers on new molds just not as good as older mold. Feels like keycreative attempted new mold to save on material. Really hope kat refined can use the original mold for production.
https://imgur.com/wsN8jjv[/img]
https://imgur.com/E5pFFid[/img]
https://imgur.com/WnTSiai[/img]

Like stated earlier, please don't compare anything with Cyberspace since it used different materials from what I understand and therefor had an impact on the shape/feel.

Don't get me wrong. I am picky, which I think the sample process has proven but this new mold drama is not something that concerns me so far. This is all subjective from person to person of course, and you might think I am completely wrong in the end but from the caps I have tested and compared I can honestly not tell the differnce in a blind test. I have also checked with other people who have caps with both molds (not Cyberspace) and they had the same reaction.

[nightdriver]

i don't see how a change like that could be due to plastics.  it must be a completely different mold that they used.

[ihs0y.]

it most definitely can be due to different plastics. one typical example is ABS vs PBT and why you see warping issues more in one than the other and why one doesn’t get doubleshot process as the other. different plastics have different mechanical properties that can very well affect the required manufacturing techniques and their outcome.

GBs and their QCs wouldn’t take this long if things were so straightforward. and with the sometimes unrealistic expectations of community members

[MacSurfy]

It seems like production finally started. I am going to check in with them in a weeks time to make sure it is is actually happening

[Georen]

Thanks for the update on this MacSurfy <3 the information (of any kind) is appreciated!

[korbor]

Hey MacSurfy, do you have an update on production?

[dglsngn]

Hey MacSurfy, do you have an update on production?

was wondering the same tho 

[popkorn62]

I received an update from zF that the production started beginning of March but I am still waiting on confirmation of how far we are in the process

[MacSurfy]

I am also waiting for confirmation. Sent them two mails about this already but I have not heard anything back.

Will let you know as soon as I know more.

[lakeboredom]

This was interesting hearing there may be differences in KAT sets. I have the OG KAT Alpha, and also the 1.2 Blank version and I noticed the difference in quality immediately. Not sure about the sculpt, but the newer Blanks are all lighter in weight and not as deep sounding on the same board.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

[Jefff]

I am also waiting for confirmation. Sent them two mails about this already but I have not heard anything back.

Will let you know as soon as I know more.

Uhh by their schedule, shouldn't production be done now?

[Mecxs]

I am also waiting for confirmation. Sent them two mails about this already but I have not heard anything back.

Will let you know as soon as I know more.

Uhh by their schedule, shouldn't production be done now?

By their schedule, production should have been done 8 months ago.

Keycap manufacturers lie about their timelines. Unless you are buying an in-stock set, take the estimated shipping timeline, double it, and expect the set to ship sometime between the original estimate and the doubled one.

Case in point: this set had an estimated lead time of ~10 months. It is currently 17.5 months since the GB concluded. We still have until the end of June before things start getting truly messed up.

[MacSurfy]

A little update from me: I just heard back from them today and apparently the set is in production so that's good news.

[ghstgrl]

A little update from me: I just heard back from them today and apparently the set is in production so that's good news.

Huzzah! Hope it goes smoothly and I'll finally be able to try a KAT set lol.

[MacSurfy]

 

[WillyWortel]

Nice. The blanks are done.

Now get 87 children with sharpies and put those legends on

[involuntarysoul]

any signs of legend fading and smudging like KAT milkshake?

[MacSurfy]

First production samples just landed.
Delivery guy was just here so I have not had time to check them properly. But first impressions are good! I see a bit of excessive bleed on some BoW caps though.. its not a lot but enough to annoy me.. but all in all good so far I think!

[Mr Chrome]

First production samples just landed.

Looking really good! Alignment and colours look pretty neat, even on WoB. There doesn’t seem to be KAM Wraith fading around the homing bars either. Not sure how it’ll be for all sets, but thank you for pushing KR to up their game 

[MacSurfy]

First production samples just landed.

Looking really good! Alignment and colours look pretty neat, even on WoB. There doesn’t seem to be KAM Wraith fading around the homing bars either. Not sure how it’ll be for all sets, but thank you for pushing KR to up their game 

Nope no fading around the bars 

[koenoe]

Nice! Can't wait

[conorliv]

1) What is current delivery ETA?
2) For those of us who ordered Ergodox keys too, will they be included in the same shipment?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[involuntarysoul]

we'll be lucky to get them this year, there is like 20 different GB in queue right now

[MacSurfy]

we'll be lucky to get them this year, there is like 20 different GB in queue right now

It is irrelevant how many sets are in queue since we are in production.

[MacSurfy]

1) What is current delivery ETA?
2) For those of us who ordered Ergodox keys too, will they be included in the same shipment?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1. Don't know and pointless to guess. First they have to finish and then send it out. That last part can take a long time with shipping routes being clogged outside Asia at the moment.
2. I have no idea how they package things but I would assume your vendor won't send you your order unless they have everything.

[thelaughingman]

Man it's been a longtime coming!!! 18 months since GB ended and finally I can see the end of the tunnel!

Production sample looks great btw! I'm kicking myself for joining just the WOB, gonna have to get the BOW once it goes on sales. 1question - there are 2 6u space bars in the kit, 1 is off-center and 1 is centered stem right?

[MacSurfy]

We are entering the last steps of production.

Caps are done, they will be sorted the following days and then go to QC, packing and finally shipping. The last part will take time so don't take off your caps just yet 

[MacSurfy]

[MacSurfy]

Apparently some people have theirs now .. not me though 

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/vrsef3/kat_is_back_and_its_more_elegant_than_ever/

[MacSurfy]

Photos by /u/hud731/