I don't really get the hype of a model M

[1391406]

I don't see why people prefer old IBM model Ms more than Unicomp keyboards even though Unicomp keyboards are new.

Because the Model M has a higher build quality. New doesn't necessarily mean better.

[histevenhere]

Typing on a M feels sturdier than any cherrymx board I've ever used, however I would never use a M to game on. Model Ms are tanks LOL.

[quickcrx702]

Also, although I didn't like the feel of the board and gave it away to my friend, I will admit that it sounds better than MX Blues.  In my opinion, it sounds great, maybe even better than the Topre thock I love so much, but it does get distracting sometimes.

[jspark]

I don't see why people prefer old IBM model Ms more than Unicomp keyboards even though Unicomp keyboards are new.

Because the Model M has a higher build quality. New doesn't necessarily mean better.

I agree with the idea that new doesn't necessarily mean better, but are you really sure the model M has a higher build quality?
Can you compare one by one, and explain why it has a higher build quality?
I'm not sure what makes Unicomp keyboards have a lower build quality. Actually, I don't like Ms key layout. I use winkey very often.

[Poom]

they are so tiring to type on... I cant type on them for so long. had a 1985 and 1995 ones.. ended up giving them away. also way to big for my desk.

apart from that, i feel like every keyboard enthusiasts should at least own or owned a model M.

[fohat.digs]

they are so tiring to type on

The Model F is far easier on the fingers, besides being better in every other way, except for layout, price, and weight.

[1391406]

I'm not sure what makes Unicomp keyboards have a lower build quality.

Compared to IBM Model M's, Unicomp cases tend to creak, have more flex, exhibit cosmetic imperfections on the surface of the board, and flashing around some of the key caps.

[1391406]

they are so tiring to type on

The Model F is far easier on the fingers, besides being better in every other way, except for layout, price, and weight.

I agree, although I like the weight of the Model F. It makes me feel like I'm typing on something more solidly built.

[czarek]

I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex. They don't squeak because they're made from different plastics than new Unicomps (old IBM cases are made from PVC which I think is no longer allowed to be used in keyboards, new Unicomp cases are made from ABS), the build and fit quality is the same. Injection marks are as visible on classic IBM keyboards as on Unicomps. Of course there is a huge difference in quality control of the Big Blue and small Kentucky company but I wouldn't say the two products differ colossally.
Now comparison to non BS keyboards. Like it or not but any Costar keyboard will have less flex than Model M, not to mention Topre which is built even better. The switches while super nice to type on (my personal favourite in terms of sound and feel) are inconsistent. They sound and feel very different across the board, it's noticeable in all IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp keyboards, Model Ms and Model Fs (Model Fs are even worse in this respect - and I had plenty of them - ATs, Terminal, XTs so I can tell you that, also it is least apparent in Unicomps).
Last may be a personal thing but I type faster on Cherry MX Blue (which I think feels like a cheap rip-off of BS and sounds even worse than that) than on Buckling Spring.
So all in all, IBMs and Unicomps are awesome keyboards but definitely not perfect, and in many respects are worse than other keyboards.

[Wall Street]

I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex.

I think one of the things that often isn't acknowledged is that build quality from a presentation standpoint is different than build quality from a durability standpoint.  A lot of well engineered things can last despite looking flimsy.  A lot of solid looking things can have design weaknesses.

How many Cherry's based board have you heard about with keys double registering or broken USB ports?  A metal case doesn't make a keyboard last.  I also laugh at Cherry's claim that the switches last 50 million presses, as people I know who have these Cherry boards seem to need to do a lot more maintenance just to keep them working than a rubber dome owner.

How many Model M keyboards are working from over 15 years ago?  Even though the top of the keyboard is covered in a flimsy plastic that reminds me of the dashboard of a 1985 Toyota Celica, I am confident this board will last.  The case may flex, but I have yet to see flex kill a keyboard.  Also, flex is minimized when it is flat on a desk, and I don't see any other way to use a Model M.

[Grim Fandango]

Well, everyone likes different things. It is not surprising to me at all that there are some people who do not care for it. Also, part of the  appeal is the whole retro/vintage thing.

[czarek]

I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex.

I think one of the things that often isn't acknowledged is that build quality from a presentation standpoint is different than build quality from a durability standpoint.  A lot of well engineered things can last despite looking flimsy.  A lot of solid looking things can have design weaknesses.

How many Cherry's based board have you heard about with keys double registering or broken USB ports?  A metal case doesn't make a keyboard last.  I also laugh at Cherry's claim that the switches last 50 million presses, as people I know who have these Cherry boards seem to need to do a lot more maintenance just to keep them working than a rubber dome owner.

How many Model M keyboards are working from over 15 years ago?  Even though the top of the keyboard is covered in a flimsy plastic that reminds me of the dashboard of a 1985 Toyota Celica, I am confident this board will last.  The case may flex, but I have yet to see flex kill a keyboard.  Also, flex is minimized when it is flat on a desk, and I don't see any other way to use a Model M.

I've seen many Model Ms broken due to rivets falling off the case. So I've seen rotten membranes failing to register whole rows of keys, also in Model Ms. The oldest Cherry I've had was made in 1989 and was working fine. The oldest IBM I had was the Model F from 1985 was working fine too, although it needed cleaning and re-lubing because most of the keys were sticky. The oldest IBM I have now is 1390120 from 1986 and despite having few rivets missing it works well. I haven't cleaned it yet and it's definitely usable board, but... I'm not going to use it. Because it feels slow and heavy, also misses windows keys (I'm ok remapping CMD to Alt, but then it makes it hard reach to type Polish characters when I have Ctrl mapped to Alt, of course I always have Caps Lock remapped to Control, I'm used to that since Amiga days).
We're not comparing classic toyota celica to modern honda accord here. We're comparing 1980s Merc G class to modern Merc SL class. Sure the G class will last longer, it will give you **** lots of fun while driving, but will not be as easy and nice to drive as new Merc SL, neither it will run as fast.
Please keep in mind I absolutely love all my IBM keyboards and Buckling Spring is my favourite switch.

[engicoder]

I think the reputation of the Model M is partially a result of the rubber dome revolution. In the early days of PC computing people were more concerned with adapting to this new PC thing than any esoteric interest in the perfect keyboard. As PC's became common place, the cost cutting drive pushed manufacturers to the rubber dome keyboard. The average user never knew any other type of keyboard and didn't care to. Some of the folks who had been around for a while began to compare these rubber domes to the keyboards of yore and the keyboard cult was born. Why the Model M became the poster child for the perfect keyboard can probably be attributed to three things:

1. the buckling spring look and feel that originated with the original PC (the IBM PC)
2. the Model M's durability and longevity
3. the shear volume of Model M's that were produced and still survive (see 2)

[1391406]

I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype.

Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?

First of all their cases DO flex.

I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.

They don't squeak because they're made from different plastics than new Unicomps (old IBM cases are made from PVC which I think is no longer allowed to be used in keyboards, new Unicomp cases are made from ABS)

Chicony cases have a lot of flex and creak like crazy, which is one of the reasons their build quality is considered cheap.

Injection marks are as visible on classic IBM keyboards as on Unicomps.

There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:

Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.

[fohat.digs]

I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.

There has been a lot of debate about these case materials. The F cases (in my opinion, others have argued with me) are a much harder and more brittle plastic than the M cases. There is very little flex because the back of the case is a metal pan (except for the F AT, whose front case clips make for a nightmare for dis-assembly) but they are prone to breaking at the corners. Also, there is a surface layer that can be unsightly if it peels up.

The Model M plastic - in my opinion - is softer yet tougher, and what you lose in flex you more than make up for in resistance to breaking.

I cannot speak to the Unicomp construction, because I have only owned a few for a short time, and never compared them side-by-side.

[1391406]

I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.

There has been a lot of debate about these case materials. The F cases (in my opinion, others have argued with me) are a much harder and more brittle plastic than the M cases. There is very little flex because the back of the case is a metal pan (except for the F AT, whose front case clips make for a nightmare for dis-assembly) but they are prone to breaking at the corners. Also, there is a surface layer that can be unsightly if it peels up.

The Model M plastic - in my opinion - is softer yet tougher, and what you lose in flex you more than make up for in resistance to breaking.

I cannot speak to the Unicomp construction, because I have only owned a few for a short time, and never compared them side-by-side.

I can't really speak to the brittleness of Model F cases, although I can say I've put mine through its paces while attempting to wipe off whatever residue was residing on the surface (as mentioned in a previous thread) and didn't notice any cracks before or after a rigorous cleaning, thankfully. But even if the Model M is more durable in that regard, neither board creak. I've heard others praise Unicomp boards, but having owned one for some time, compared to my IBM made Model M's, I'll just say it. I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.

[fohat.digs]

I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.

And they are selling their products for half, in 2013 dollars, what IBM was charging 25 years ago, in 1988 dollars.

[1391406]

I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.

And they are selling their products for half, in 2013 dollars, what IBM was charging 25 years ago, in 1988 dollars.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't be willing to pay more for a higher quality product. They do all the time.

[czarek]

Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?

I somehow get feeling that you do. Any time someone writes any words of criticism towards Model M.

I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.

Yes, so do Costar keyboards and Realforces. To be honest even less flex than Model M, not even mentioning Unicomp.

There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:
Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.

Yet I've never seen it on either Filco or Realforce or even el cheapo QFR.

My advice is to look outside. This is not the 80s any more and other guys are also making decent keyboards. Model M while still holding really well, may still be king for some of us (even for me as I mentioned that earlier) is not perfect, in some regards, other keyboards are better than it.
The worst part of Model M is that it's just plain old and often to get it working properly you need to bolt mod it, not to mention about cleaning 20 years worth of dust and debris, sometimes fighting off the rust... Yes I know there are some good working boards available still, but they become harder and more expensive to get every day. Out of many Model Ms I had, none of them felt brand new out of the box (even NIB Space Saving board had many broken rivets), and even when I finally got one Model M (1391401) which had all rivets in place it was so dirty and keys were sticking I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it. Maybe I'm yet to find the perfect Model M, but while looking for one, I'm going to enjoy modern and decently built keyboards, even if I don't enjoy them as much.

[1391406]

Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?

I somehow get feeling that you do. Any time someone writes any words of criticism towards Model M.

Your feelings are irrelevant to the facts, as I've never stated in this or any other thread that Model M's are either the best built or longest lasting keyboard. In fact, there have been several criticisms of the Model M in this very thread without so much as a peep from me. It's only when someone made a comparison between new Unicomp's and the Model M that I chimed in.

I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.

Yes, so do Costar keyboards and Realforces. To be honest even less flex than Model M, not even mentioning Unicomp.

You're attacking statements that weren't made; a straw man argument. First you stated that Model M cases "DO flex", as if someone claimed they don't. I stated that Unicomp cases have more flex than Model M cases. Not just a little. A lot. Now you're bringing up Costar and Realforce as if that has some sort of relevance to the post I was originally replying to. Your comments aren't even in context. Again, I was comparing Model M's to Unicomp's, not Realforce or Costar boards. And for the record, I don't think anyone has ever, or would ever, associate the extremely marginal case flex of an assembled Model M with something cheap.

There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:
Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.

Yet I've never seen it on either Filco or Realforce or even el cheapo QFR.

And how are Filco, Realforce, and QFR boards even remotely relevant to the context of the post I was replying to? My comments were specifically directed at another poster who inquired as to why people prefer Model M's over Unicomp's, and then went on to inquire as to why I felt Model M's had a higher build quality than Unicomp boards. They weren't asking about Realforce, Filco, Costar, or QFR. They were asking me to compare Model M's to Unicomp's.

My advice is to look outside. This is not the 80s any more and other guys are also making decent keyboards.

Another straw man argument. No one said there aren't companies making decent keyboards.

Model M while still holding really well, may still be king for some of us (even for me as I mentioned that earlier) is not perfect, in some regards, other keyboards are better than it.

Yet another straw man. No one claimed there aren't keyboards with a higher build quality than the Model M. My contention is that Unicomp boards aren't one of them.

The worst part of Model M is that it's just plain old and often to get it working properly you need to bolt mod it

Every Model M that I (and myriad other people) have owned has worked perfectly without a bolt mod(and there are numerous other Model M owners who can attest to that), and a lot of Model M's look relatively new with a bit of clean up. Granted, I have no doubt some Model M's would greatly benefit from a bolt mod, but acting as if most of them frequently need to be bolt modded to work properly is simply fallacious.

Yes I know there are some good working boards available still, but they become harder and more expensive to get every day.

Which has nothing to do with build quality.

Out of many Model Ms I had, none of them felt brand new out of the box (even NIB Space Saving board had many broken rivets), and even when I finally got one Model M (1391401) which had all rivets in place it was so dirty and keys were sticking I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it.

Then it seems you invested in a lemon. A lot of owners, myself included, don't have problems with sticking keys and aren't bothered with a little clean up. If you are, then that's you. But acting as if most most Model M's are dirty, malfunctioning rust buckets that need a bolt mod to work properly is a fallacious representation.

Maybe I'm yet to find the perfect Model M, but while looking for one, I'm going to enjoy modern and decently built keyboards, even if I don't enjoy them as much.

If you're expecting to find a Model M in pristine and perfect condition then you're probably looking for an NIB, to which you're probably going to pay original Model M prices. However, of all the Model M's I've owned, most look and work great, even if they're not new.

If you prefer modern keyboards to the Model M, great. I'm happy for you, but misrepresenting Model M's in the process only undermines your credibility.

[Techno Trousers]

Wow, sometimes we take our keybord preferences a little too personally, eh?

[fohat.digs]

I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it.

What do you lube? How do you lube it? Are you referring to a tiny dot where the clips holds the stabilizer wire?

[1391401]

To each there own - I HATE reds and there are people who search them out exclusively.

I like a heavy keyboard.  I type and program a lot at work and unfortunately buckling springs are too loud in the cubicle setting (when commonplace keyboards are so quiet) so I have had to switch to mx clear.

Long story short it's just preference.  I have an MX Green board and I feel like it's "the mx blue I can type on"