Author Topic: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]  (Read 664585 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline conandy

  • Posts: 43
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #950 on: Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:18:17 »
While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk. 

Offline jeffgran

  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Denver
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #951 on: Sat, 16 November 2013, 02:25:57 »
While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk.

I agree that the 10key in the middle may SEEM like a good idea, but that it is not. I think the best option is a "layer switch" key you hold down or toggle with the left hand, that turns the home row and the three keys above and below (JKL, UIO and M,.) into the 10key. The right-hand "space bar" key in the thumb cluster is the 0. I set this up on my ergodox and have been using it for a few days, and it feels great. :)

Offline jeffgran

  • Posts: 126
  • Location: Denver
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #952 on: Sat, 16 November 2013, 02:30:42 »
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.

In response to this, I just have to say that I DISagree. I want all 6 keys, if not more, per thumb. Space bar & enter (right), backspace & tab (left), and then control, meta, alt, layer1, layer2 for EACH thumb.

But I do wholeheartedly agree that the ED thumb cluster is too far out and awkward. My take on the physical layout of the thumb keys is the first image in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #953 on: Sun, 17 November 2013, 01:32:31 »
As a kinesis user, I'd prefer the full set of thumb keys.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline conandy

  • Posts: 43
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #954 on: Mon, 18 November 2013, 10:57:54 »
Hmmm..based on some of the feedback here, maybe I need to mock up that full thumb cluster after all.  I like the taller button idea, or some sort of 3D sculpted configuration. 

Acidfire's been quiet awhile.  How's the project going, Acid?

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #955 on: Mon, 18 November 2013, 11:41:55 »
Things have been going quite well, I've made a number of revisions to the case design that while I'm not quite ready to share, address the issues with the thumb clusters quite nicely, both for spacing and the number of keys available. I've also come up with a way to for the boards to better figure out how to self configure. I'm hoping to have some new board designs ready to go out for prototyping by the end of the month, which should let me test out both the new case designs and the new electronics.

Offline ffira

  • Posts: 6
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #956 on: Sat, 23 November 2013, 07:08:48 »
Hey all, just found this post today.

AcidFire, just send out the word for the beginning of your kickstart, and I'm sure to contribute some (even though I'm broke from buying an ergodox recently). :thumb:

Really nice designs, and really interested in your handiwork!  ;D

Offline reziak

  • Posts: 263
  • Location: MN
  • Topre/60% Enthusiast
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #957 on: Mon, 25 November 2013, 01:48:34 »
This is fantastic. Sign me up for a kit!

HHKB Pro 2 | FC660C | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S

Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #958 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:11:53 »
okay, I almost signed up for the ergodox massdrop - after a brief scan of this thread, I think I will have to reconsider...  ...at the very least, I need to read this entire thread first!

EDIT:  okay, I was a bit sceptical about the tiered thumb layer, but then I saw a photo of your hand on the prototype - now I'm convinced you're right!
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:25:25 by kfmfe04 »
⌨White Blank HHKB P2 ⌨Filco TKL SA MXRed
Interests: ⌨AcidFire's Board ⌨Kinesis Advantage LF

Offline Pacifist

  • Report me *again* if there are gifs in my sig
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3599
  • Location: Cali
  • on hiatus
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #959 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:22:01 »
Screw Ergodox, Im getting this

Offline w3djyt

  • Posts: 46
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #960 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 15:56:52 »
Screw Ergodox, Im getting this

Yeah, no kidding. Really looking forward to the kickstarter/initial offering/what have you!

Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #961 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 17:48:58 »
The biggest thing that kept me from pulling the trigger on the third round of massdrop/ergodox was the tenting problem (the thumb button placement was the other).

This project solves both, in a beautiful way.  Kudos on a very nice piece of design and engineering!

No more ergodox for me; I've also cancelled my orders for Honeywell/ERGO spherical keys on Deskthority.

AcidFire, for reference, if you haven't done so already, do check out the GB on Deskthority for ongoing MX cherries and please do say hi to 7bit if you haven't already, for as someone else mentioned, maybe you can join up with 7bit on future mass purchases to meet Cherries' MOQ:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

FWIW, when you go into production, I will likely have to order a tented board and that 70% board from you (MX Reds).  The RGB LEDs look great:  I'll wait in line for those. 

Also WAY INTO THE FUTURE (maybe version 2 or 3), if you design a module that can actually take LCD buttons (even if the switch is not mechanical), maybe in the form of a numpad-size module, I would definitely go for that.  I'm talking about something found in Razer's Deathstalker Ultimate (I like those 10 buttons - don't care much about the RGB LCD display).  To be honest, I'm not sure I even know what that hardware looks like underneath.



I looked into buying that board just so I can have programmable key-faces (for specialized applications, I want keys that will change depending on some real-time metrics), but their SDK is closed source and requires the purchase of Visual Studio Pro for $600 - no thanks!

EDIT:  fwiw, the crazy version of that type of keyboard (and the inspiration) comes from Art Lebedev - I think this one, the Optimus Popularis, goes for USD1000+ :



TL;DR

I will be eagerly checking this thread daily, awaiting your kickstarter announcement for version 1.0!
« Last Edit: Tue, 26 November 2013, 18:12:17 by kfmfe04 »
⌨White Blank HHKB P2 ⌨Filco TKL SA MXRed
Interests: ⌨AcidFire's Board ⌨Kinesis Advantage LF

Offline kzhk

  • Posts: 18
  • Location: France
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #962 on: Tue, 26 November 2013, 18:14:18 »
I'm also waiting for AcidFire's keyboard, but I'm still in for one (and maybe a second one later) Ergodox. I still use a scissor switch keyboard (typematrix) right now, and I can't wait to go mechanical ! Also Honeywell keycaps should mostly work for AcidFire's keyboard.

Offline w3djyt

  • Posts: 46
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #963 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 11:51:59 »
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!

Offline doublethink665

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: right behind you!
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #964 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 12:13:25 »
I have ape hands, and I can assure you that ergonomic keyboards were not made with me in mind.  ;D Few things in this world were made with me in mind.
My fingertips are as big as the keys, so unless I hit the keys dead on I hit two or more at once. Flat keytops are not my friends. Neither are condensed or "mini" boards. I feel like King Kong when I use those.
My wife has tiny hands, so I can appreciate the other side of the spectrum. It's not easy being outside the norm.
I love the adjustable cluster idea.
I plan on putting backspace and escape on the cluster so my time with vi will be much easier. My pinkies have gotten pretty strong from all that flexing over the years, but they are still the first to wear out.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #965 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 13:14:01 »
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!

I've actually experienced this from the other direction, particularly with mice. Most are too small to be comfortable for me when held "correctly".
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #966 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 13:17:26 »
I've actually experienced this from the other direction, particularly with mice. Most are too small to be comfortable for me when held "correctly".

One solution is to be "allergic to the mouse" when working.

Years ago, I used to have a co-worker who did his best to avoid using the mouse whenever possible.

Now, I appreciate his aversion - the more I keep my hands on the keyboard, the faster/more productive I am.
⌨White Blank HHKB P2 ⌨Filco TKL SA MXRed
Interests: ⌨AcidFire's Board ⌨Kinesis Advantage LF

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #967 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 14:16:31 »
That's pretty hard to do when gaming  ;)  But good advice when working. I've got a R.A.T. now and it fits my hand well, so no worries any more.

Back on topic, tenting and angled thumb clusters make a big difference, IMO, and really make this a lot more attractive to me than an ErgoDox. I'm very interested to see the next iteration of the design.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #968 on: Fri, 29 November 2013, 15:50:13 »
I totally agree : the lack of tenting was the headache which made me put off joining the ergodox massbuy - turned out for the best as I discovered this thread in the meantime.

Oobly, I saw your thread on your custom build the other day - very impressive - I wish I had the skills with materials to construct something like that!
⌨White Blank HHKB P2 ⌨Filco TKL SA MXRed
Interests: ⌨AcidFire's Board ⌨Kinesis Advantage LF

Offline yakitysax

  • Posts: 51
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #969 on: Sat, 30 November 2013, 01:45:05 »
AcidFire, have you thought about a module that interfaces the keyboard with a small LCD display? The use case here that I have in mind is to display information relevant to the current keyboard state, such as the current layer in use, potentially enabling alias'ing the layers with more meaningful indicators such as naming a layer based on being designed for a unique context.

Offline spspencer

  • Posts: 24
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #970 on: Mon, 02 December 2013, 13:50:28 »


Love your handle.

War is peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength




Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #971 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 13:54:33 »
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out. I dropped the layouts into AutoCAD and have been printing and trying them out with spare keycaps and some sticky tack.  For my little hands (with their long-ago torn thumb tendons), the thumb spread is just too far out.  I found I need to have the "space bar" equivalent thumb key located right under the B key (qwerty) on the left hand, and N on the right, with like 2mm spacing between corner of the thumb key and the B or N key.  This sort of interferes with the bottom row of the main key matrix, though.  Still playing with it.  I like some of Kurplop's experiments going on with his keyboard layouts.   I know AcidFire has indicated that the dropped thumb cluster and now the angled down thumb cluster really make it an easier reach, but I may be a statistical outlier as far as this goes.    We'll see.

Great thing about this project is that the thumb cluster is re-position-able and now... hinged! 

I also feel like I needed more column stagger, so I'm gonna try the raw Key64 layout with the increased stagger to the columns.  My fingers are very different in length and my pinky is really short, so we'll see where that goes.  I  may end up with a complete home-made version of this to suit my needs, but hey, that is what this site is all about.  Sharing ideas.

Excited to see this project come to fruition.  Keep up the great work, Acidfire.
The thing I'm proud of right now with the new design of the PCBs is that if the clusters don't suit your hands, you still have the ability to make custom clusters and use the control electronics, following some very simple guidelines. When all the project files are released, I'll also be posting a guide to designing your own clusters.

Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.

In response to this, I just have to say that I DISagree. I want all 6 keys, if not more, per thumb. Space bar & enter (right), backspace & tab (left), and then control, meta, alt, layer1, layer2 for EACH thumb.

But I do wholeheartedly agree that the ED thumb cluster is too far out and awkward. My take on the physical layout of the thumb keys is the first image in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?

Can't wait for this to finalize!
Given how excited my girlfriend is about this project, if I were to release something that was too big for her I would never hear the end of it :D This is the other major factor that's slowed me down a bit, because in order to really bring the thumb clusters in close, acrylic just won't cut it and so something injection molded will give me something that'll let the thumb cluster move right in against the body. And yes, the new controller design will definitely let me reduce costs for a board with the smaller thumb clusters.

While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle.  I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward.  Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle.  If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder. 

I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad.  I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk.  Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand.  My keyboard is 10-keyless.   What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard.  If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement.  Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand.  It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way. 

Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse!    Now I'm just talking crazy talk.

I agree that the 10key in the middle may SEEM like a good idea, but that it is not. I think the best option is a "layer switch" key you hold down or toggle with the left hand, that turns the home row and the three keys above and below (JKL, UIO and M,.) into the 10key. The right-hand "space bar" key in the thumb cluster is the 0. I set this up on my ergodox and have been using it for a few days, and it feels great. :)
Unfortunately I think I should have been more clear when I had posted the keystation, while the module I was using is around the size is the same as a 10-key pad, I more envision them as macro keys/custom bindings that aren't used as much. Personally, I would love the 10-key on my left hand side, either as a layer or external module, since that is actually how I use my 10-key right now, shifting my left hand over when I have lots of numbers to enter. I think I'll include a layer with the default set that has the 10-key setup on the left hand side ;)

I have ape hands, and I can assure you that ergonomic keyboards were not made with me in mind.  ;D Few things in this world were made with me in mind.
My fingertips are as big as the keys, so unless I hit the keys dead on I hit two or more at once. Flat keytops are not my friends. Neither are condensed or "mini" boards. I feel like King Kong when I use those.
My wife has tiny hands, so I can appreciate the other side of the spectrum. It's not easy being outside the norm.
I love the adjustable cluster idea.
I plan on putting backspace and escape on the cluster so my time with vi will be much easier. My pinkies have gotten pretty strong from all that flexing over the years, but they are still the first to wear out.
I definitely feel your pain on that one, as I have largish fingers myself. So far I've been enjoying both the DCS and DSA profiles, and I'm happy that I'll be offering both options.

The biggest thing that kept me from pulling the trigger on the third round of massdrop/ergodox was the tenting problem (the thumb button placement was the other).

This project solves both, in a beautiful way.  Kudos on a very nice piece of design and engineering!

No more ergodox for me; I've also cancelled my orders for Honeywell/ERGO spherical keys on Deskthority.

AcidFire, for reference, if you haven't done so already, do check out the GB on Deskthority for ongoing MX cherries and please do say hi to 7bit if you haven't already, for as someone else mentioned, maybe you can join up with 7bit on future mass purchases to meet Cherries' MOQ:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

FWIW, when you go into production, I will likely have to order a tented board and that 70% board from you (MX Reds).  The RGB LEDs look great:  I'll wait in line for those. 

Also WAY INTO THE FUTURE (maybe version 2 or 3), if you design a module that can actually take LCD buttons (even if the switch is not mechanical), maybe in the form of a numpad-size module, I would definitely go for that.  I'm talking about something found in Razer's Deathstalker Ultimate (I like those 10 buttons - don't care much about the RGB LCD display).  To be honest, I'm not sure I even know what that hardware looks like underneath.

(Attachment Link)

I looked into buying that board just so I can have programmable key-faces (for specialized applications, I want keys that will change depending on some real-time metrics), but their SDK is closed source and requires the purchase of Visual Studio Pro for $600 - no thanks!

EDIT:  fwiw, the crazy version of that type of keyboard (and the inspiration) comes from Art Lebedev - I think this one, the Optimus Popularis, goes for USD1000+ :

(Attachment Link)

TL;DR

I will be eagerly checking this thread daily, awaiting your kickstarter announcement for version 1.0!
I'm currently working on lining up the financing outside of a kickstarter campaign to meet Cherry's MOQ, as I'd really like to be able to offer sets to the community at a price that is both profitable for me but much more affordable and easier to get ahold of, like reds & greens, for the community (looking to hit 0.50-0.60/switch at less than 100 switches). If that doesn't happen, I'll definitely be talking to 7bit about future orders.

I don't know how feasible an LCD key module will be, but it's definitely something I'd like to explore at some point. The great thing is that the existing system would only require a firmware upgrade to talk to such modules.

AcidFire, have you thought about a module that interfaces the keyboard with a small LCD display? The use case here that I have in mind is to display information relevant to the current keyboard state, such as the current layer in use, potentially enabling alias'ing the layers with more meaningful indicators such as naming a layer based on being designed for a unique context.
This is definitely something I'm looking into, for the exact reason you mentioned. I already know the module can be dropped into the loop without an issue, the only thing i have to look into is what type of LCD/OLED display I want to use, and how much I can get them for.

****************************************************

Development wise, there is a few things I'm excited to share with you. First, thanks to the help of the always amazing Melissa @ SP, it looks like I will be able to offer backlit keysets in both DCS & DSA at only a slight premium over blanks, since I will be able to buy the translucent keys unpainted (painted the cost doubles per set) and do the coating myself. This also means that aside from the standard set, there will also be the option to order a custom set with a font of your choice for the cost of the setup, which while it still needs to be determined, should be quite low if the design guidelines are followed.

Now the other major design improvement I've made deals with the auto configuration. Originally, the idea was to use the unused I/O on the expanders for the clusters for setting configuration options, but this limited them to being used atmost as a 5x7 cluster. I realized that this would be too limiting, and so had planned to include an 8-bit expander on each of the controllers that could be used to set the configuration. The problem with this approach is that while I could get the cost of the expanders below $1/ea., $4/kit = $10.00 added to the price of the keyboard. It also added an extra level of complexity for someone else designing a custom cluster.

Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme. So now, the LEDs sit in a polar opposite direction of the diode on each switch, allowing it to be read in a different manner with the keys, without having the backlight interferred with when running normally. I know this might be hard to visualize, so I will be posting a video hopefully this weekend showing this in action.

This led to a second discovery, because of the simplified boards, I can offer the backlighting as an optional add on, which potentially can reduce the cost of a kit to $140-160. When the board comes without the LED backlighting, 1n4148 diodes can be used in place of the LEDs, which add a marginal cost compared to the LEDs. These of course can be removed later and replaced with LEDs with a backlight upgrade kit. I have a picture to upload a bit later that will show how this set up works.

Offline Demonmaker

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: isle of man
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #972 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 17:02:10 »
Great update, thank you.

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2248
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #973 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 17:54:50 »
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

That's BRILLIANT!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #974 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:07:28 »
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #975 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:15:51 »
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

Edit: Watching the video again, it may be possible that the entire body of the switch is helping to diffuse the light. Either way, the exclusivity to Corsair is going to make it a difficult option. It's definitely something I'll be keeping my eye on.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:19:44 by AcidFire »

Offline BlueByLiquid

  • Posts: 122
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #976 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:20:47 »
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

I know I almost lost it. I'm guessing the transparency will help the color stand out better. I agree your solution look like it will be lots better but these look awesome too. I guessing the Corsair exclusive is a just to allow them to ramp up production (I'm sure money was involved too. I am so freaking excited about this though because it means more support for RGB keys

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #977 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:24:35 »
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.

MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.

It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.

I know I almost lost it. I'm guessing the transparency will help the color stand out better. I agree your solution look like it will be lots better but these look awesome too. I guessing the Corsair exclusive is a just to allow them to ramp up production (I'm sure money was involved too. I am so freaking excited about this though because it means more support for RGB keys

Generally deals on exclusivity aren't in perpetuity, so hopefully down the road they might be available to order. I'm not holding my breath until I can match what I'm sure had to be a massive order for them to produce them.

Offline kittykatmax

  • Posts: 159
  • Location: United States
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #978 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 18:45:10 »
Waiting patiently but eagerly to be able to buy one (or two!) of your amazing keyboards.  The more I read, the more I feel like a little kid at Christmas! 

:)
Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #979 on: Wed, 04 December 2013, 22:36:58 »
So after looking at the Cherry MX RGB, I found myself more determined to make the RGB addon a more affordable option. So I did some digging, and I managed to find some LEDs that were the right size and a much better price. There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.


Also, as promised, this is how the diodes for reading the layout are set up.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 December 2013, 23:44:33 by AcidFire »

Offline w3djyt

  • Posts: 46
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #980 on: Thu, 05 December 2013, 11:08:33 »
There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.

You are a god :O

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #981 on: Thu, 05 December 2013, 11:15:40 »
Quote from: AcidFire
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

Whoah, whoah, whoah. What? Are you talking about probing the LEDs/Diodes for row/columns on boot up? That's absolutely insane. And absolutely genius.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #982 on: Thu, 05 December 2013, 12:02:18 »
There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.

You are a god :O
Not a god, just very determined ;)

Quote from: AcidFire
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.

Whoah, whoah, whoah. What? Are you talking about probing the LEDs/Diodes for row/columns on boot up? That's absolutely insane. And absolutely genius.

That's exactly what it does. Unfortunately it can't tell what size the key is, but I think overall it'll do the trick for discovering the layout. I seen a trick on another project about using machine pin sockets to make the LEDs swappable, I think I'd offer a $5.00 addon for the kit that would include enough pins to do the entire board.

Additional: I found a new pin/header supplier who offers a greater number of options for connector size, which will actually let me go back to 0.1" standard headers for everything. They also happen to have a smt 2 pin female header, that allows bottom entry (heh) and is only 5mm tall. This is shorter than the height of the controller board when connected, and would allow a very easy swap of diodes and LEDs without having to open up the switches. If the quote comes back low enough, I may just include them as a standard feature.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 December 2013, 16:09:13 by AcidFire »

Offline sche

  • Posts: 1
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #983 on: Fri, 06 December 2013, 10:45:29 »
Awesome project, I'm in!
 :thumb:

Offline kaltar

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Miami, FL
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #984 on: Fri, 13 December 2013, 01:16:00 »
I can't wait to see it done... Im drooling!!!

Offline simplisity

  • Posts: 13
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #985 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 17:44:42 »
Nice work.  I am definitely in for one of these.  Will it have the ability for full 90 degrees vertical?

Offline clickclack123

  • Posts: 357
  • Location: Australia, Mate!
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #986 on: Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:55:44 »
Seriously, just SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!  :)

I was dying to get an Ergodox but this sounds awesome. I hope that you can actually implement all the customization options that you're suggesting. We can all create our own dream keyboard!!

Offline clickclack123

  • Posts: 357
  • Location: Australia, Mate!
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #987 on: Fri, 20 December 2013, 06:36:12 »
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Awesome project.

The addition of assignable scroll wheels on both sides would make this project my perfect keyboard. If you don't do it, there's a good chance that I'll try to add them to mine when I buy it. I've always wanted a keyboard with a scrollwheel. When I'm surfing, the arrows are too slow, pgup/down is too jumpy, so it's back over to the mouse for the scrollwheel all the time.

Acidfire, I just hope that you're not spreading yourself too thin with all these features and options. Please don't be offended by this, I'm just very keen to see this come to fruition - KISSASS Keep it simple stupid and ship something! I totally understand that you don't want to limit yourself by underdesigning the initial offering though.

Keep up the good work! It looks awesome.

Offline clickclack123

  • Posts: 357
  • Location: Australia, Mate!
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #988 on: Fri, 20 December 2013, 18:17:34 »
I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?

Offline kfmfe04

  • Posts: 92
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #989 on: Sat, 21 December 2013, 01:41:27 »
I try to look at the situation in a positive light.

Because this design looks so good, it has actually put a HALT to my keyboard spending: I'm reluctant to spend more money because I know something better (this project) will come to fruition, eventually!

So the situation is actually saving me money.

Of course, once released, I can't guarantee that I won't go broke spending money on all these yummy modules...
⌨White Blank HHKB P2 ⌨Filco TKL SA MXRed
Interests: ⌨AcidFire's Board ⌨Kinesis Advantage LF

Offline Demonmaker

  • Posts: 17
  • Location: isle of man
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #990 on: Tue, 24 December 2013, 14:55:53 »
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Offline fourzeropooh

  • Posts: 210
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #991 on: Tue, 24 December 2013, 16:02:54 »

Show Image

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.

How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:

Offline FiskFisk33

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #992 on: Wed, 25 December 2013, 22:42:43 »

Show Image

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.

How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:

Well, If you're making one board for yourself it is the way to go, but if you're going to make lots, not so.

Offline clickclack123

  • Posts: 357
  • Location: Australia, Mate!
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #993 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 06:04:44 »
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!

Offline yakitysax

  • Posts: 51
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #994 on: Sun, 29 December 2013, 04:31:16 »
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.

Offline tups

  • Posts: 21
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #995 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 04:17:34 »
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!

Offline plainbriny

  • Posts: 192
  • Location: Taiwan
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #996 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 05:16:05 »
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!

The ErgoDox design allows 80 keys (extra 2 keys in the thumb clusters per hand), this should meet your needs.
However you need a 80 key plate instead of the original one.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #997 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 11:58:20 »
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.

Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.

Merry Christmas to everyone! Apologies for not getting on to reply over my break, was quite busy with family this past week.

I'm still working on the software side, and I have to admit I'm struggling a bit with the ARM side of things. While I have a firm handle on the electronics, getting the firmware up and running has been a bit more troublesome. I may enlist the aid of a few of the people who applied as beta testers who have experience programming for the Cortex M0/M Family or ARM in general to get the first version out the door. If anyone is interested in helping me out with this, shoot me a PM.


Show Image

Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.
How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:
Well, If you're making one board for yourself it is the way to go, but if you're going to make lots, not so.
Pretty much this. This was a bit time intensive, but was fun to work on over an afternoon. I will say though, that unless your doing a different layout, the PCBs are still the way to go in terms of time efficiency, especially since the boards won't cost a lot and I do plan to make completely bare boards available for those who want to truely build from scratch.

I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?
I'm currently using standard LEDs that are connected to NXP PCA9685 12-bit 16 Channel i2c LED controllers. These allow the LEDs to produce 4096 color per channel, instead of 256, or 68,719,476,736 colors as opposed to 16,777,216 (8-bit.)

For the single color backlights, the LEDs are connected to NXP PCA9674 8 Channel & PCA9675 16 Channel 8-bit i2c LED controllers.

Both of these chips have a couple of distinct advantages, chief among them being an internal PWM clock, meaning they don't need to be constantly updated like the TLC5940. Basically that means they're set & forget, which is very processor friendly.


I try to look at the situation in a positive light.

Because this design looks so good, it has actually put a HALT to my keyboard spending: I'm reluctant to spend more money because I know something better (this project) will come to fruition, eventually!

So the situation is actually saving me money.

Of course, once released, I can't guarantee that I won't go broke spending money on all these yummy modules...
No pressure! I've heard this from a number of people and its very encouraging to know that there are people eagerly awaiting what I'm working on. With what I've seen so far with my numbers, I don't think it's going to break the bank either.

AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!

In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!
Currently, there are two different solutions to this request that are part of the current revision.

First, the thumb cluster can be set up with all single keys, giving you a ton of options at your thumbs. There will also be an optional top row of keys that can be added that by default would act as F keys. Because of the minimal number of parts required outside of the key switches, I'm hoping to keep this add on to $25 or less. As with the pricing of everything on this project, most of that is the cost of the key switches, and if I can get the pricing I want, I'm looking at a price of roughly $16-18, but that wouldn't include caps.

Depending on how the sizing works out there will most likely be space available in the cases for the desktop sizes, however the travel variants would probably need a different casing. I'll be using the kickstarter campaign to judge how popular a travel variant with F keys would be.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Awesome project.

The addition of assignable scroll wheels on both sides would make this project my perfect keyboard. If you don't do it, there's a good chance that I'll try to add them to mine when I buy it. I've always wanted a keyboard with a scrollwheel. When I'm surfing, the arrows are too slow, pgup/down is too jumpy, so it's back over to the mouse for the scrollwheel all the time.

Acidfire, I just hope that you're not spreading yourself too thin with all these features and options. Please don't be offended by this, I'm just very keen to see this come to fruition - KISSASS Keep it simple stupid and ship something! I totally understand that you don't want to limit yourself by underdesigning the initial offering though.

Keep up the good work! It looks awesome.
I'm currently looking at three accessories/addons that sit at the thumbs.

1) Scroll Wheels - The code/electronics for this are actually quite simple, mechanically however it's a bit more of a pain as the wheels need to be sourced, mounting worked out, etc which all needs to be set up within an enclosure that would allow an end user to add it to their set up.

2) Jog Wheels - A horizontal version of the scroll wheels with a high precision, the problem mostly comes with how much space a wheel needs. I do however see this + the RGB backlight being quite useful to editors.

3) Mouse/Trackball/Trackpoint - This is the most requested option that currently isn't being included in the base project, mainly due to cost & sourcing (mouse actions will be supported in software however.) I think this may also provide a viable alternative to the scroll wheel, since it should be possible to map the mouse to the scroll functions.

As for KISSASS, this is something that has been guiding the project from the start. The only major revisions/feature changes that have been made are those core to the functionality of the project. I have a long list of additions and features that can be added due to the open nature of the firmware & modularity of the hardware.

---------------------------------

Ongoing, I realize that I haven't released a video explaining how the new key scanning/auto config works. Unfortunately the green LEDs I had originally purchased for testing have a terrible viewing angle and as the previous video showed, tend to flare badly. I have some nice diffused ones included in our next parts order at which point I'll be not only posting a video of how it works, but another of what the backlight is capable of.

I've also nearly completed the new versions of the PCBs, including the seperate control PCBs for the keys & backlight. This also includes the new thumb clusters which can be customized in a number of different configurations. This does present a problem with doing RGB backlight plates unfortunately, so most likely the plates that will be released will be voted on which layouts to do first.

As I mentioned previously I've managed to reduce the cost of the RGB addon significantly, and am currently in the design stage of the PCB layout for these boards. While they most likely won't go in with the next batch of board designs, I intend to get them in within the next 30 days so that they can be made a part of the kickstarter campaign.

On the case design side, one of the guys in our office has offered to teach me the basics of both Inventor & Solidworks, which should hopefully result in a workable case design in the next couple of weeks. Once I have that done I expect to be able to get quotes done and have a final price for the kit, not to mention being able to 3D print the design for active testing.

I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 December 2013, 12:03:05 by AcidFire »

Offline spspencer

  • Posts: 24
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #998 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 19:19:46 »
Happy New Year everyone! May the new year bring you a shiny new Nexus!

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #999 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 02:57:58 »
I'll drink to that.  Actually I would, but it's not yet nine in the morning...
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0