Author Topic: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions  (Read 11598 times)

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Offline Bencze

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Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 05:57:53 »
I realized the key caps on my QFR and the HPE87 could be improved so I was spending some time browsing about key caps. But it seems to be a very complicated matter and I feel I need to understand the topic fully before pursuing this interest. So I'll try and ask whatever remained unclear after about 3 days of reading:

1) 'Legends' - does this mean the printing on the key? Suspect so but want to be sure.
2) About size of modifier keys, people talk about 1.25, 1.5, 2.25 etc. - how do I know what I use, is there a description somewhere that helps me identifying it easily?
3) Sometimes I see things like R1 or R4 (as some property of the key cap), what do these mean?
4) Key profiles. I read the deskthority wiki article. How do I know what profile my keyboard is?
5) When talking of Cherry, or OEM or SP profiles, I have the feeling these only mean the height of the keys, perhaps the shape (curvature of the key top), is this right? How do I know how these fit to a certain keyboard profile?
6) What is POM profile?
7) What is a,b,c,d,... profile? I seen a topic explaining about different rows of a Cherry keyboard, but is this information only relevant to some Cherry boards or I need to know this too for any key cap purchase for various mx boards?
8) Height of keys - does it affect compatibility? Or if I have a board with cherry mx switches, oem, or sp, or cherry, they are all compatible with it?
9) Does keyboard profile profile matter for modifiers, caps, backspace, esc? For 2-row clusters like arrows or home-end cluster it could, just not too sure.
-= QFR w/ mx blues - HPE87 w/ mx browns - Ducky 1087XM w/ green alps =-

Offline BlueBär

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 07:48:26 »
1) Yes!
2) http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/keycap-compatibility
3) This means the row of the cap, lowest number being the bottom row, the keycaps have a different profile depending on the row. Some manufacturers only use 3 rows (bottom two the are R1, middle row R2 and the upper rows R3), some even 5 I think.
4) Look at it from the side and compare the keys, check the link form 2) or search the forums for your specific keyboard, you usually find an answer there.
5) Yes, they use different heights and profiles, generally if you mix different keycap sets you might get problems if they were made by different manufacturers, as I said some manufacturers use less specific row profiles, and sometimes the R1 form one manufacturer is different to the R1 of another.
6) POM is a certain sort of plastic the keycap is made of, not a profile.
7) This important for keycaps or keyboards which were manufactured by Cherry themselves (they don't only produce the switch). A is R1 for Cherry keyboards.
8) You can mix different key heights/profiles, but it might look a bit strange. However most of the time you will buy a full set and not mix more than 2 (maybe SP made modifiers and the rest original Cherry DS) and it's not an issue. You can always ask on the forums if it would work.
9) I am not sure if I understood your question completly but the up key might have a different profile than the down key, but this is not an issue if you don't want to switch them.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 April 2013, 07:54:59 by BlueBär »

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 08:02:30 »
Yes, legends are what you see on the cap, whether that be the letters or any symbols. They can be "printed" in numerous ways. If you're looking through various group buys, the one you'll probably see most is doubleshot, which is one shot of plastic for the legend, then another for the rest of the cap. You may see dyesub, which is a process where the legend is dyed into the cap. Then there is pad printing which is just as it sounds, laser etching which is as it sounds, and various other techniques. These are generally considered less desirable than the first two. Each one has disadvantages and limitations.

Modifier sizes are based on the size of a single alphanumeric cap, which is 1x. So a 1.25x mod is a quarter of a cap bigger. Generally, that is based on the keyboard you're using. A Filco or QFR will have a 6.25x spacebar with 7 1.25x mods. A Korean keyboard or certain Cherry boards or most older IBM buckling spring boards use a 7x spacebar and 4 1.5x mods, some also may have 1x mods in between Ctrl and Alt. Generally, they all add up to 15x across the row.

R1 or R4 related to the round, or number of times that set has been ran in relation to a certain set. If you only see R1 or R4, someone is probably discussing a series of GBs (group buys) ran by 7bit, which are very large, time consuming, and offer many different choices.

In regard to profiles, the word is used generously. If you're discussing the shape of the cap, we usually discuss DSA which is a spherical shape, while most others are cylindrical, called DCS. Note that those two names are used by SP (Signature Plastics). Generally, all other caps are cylindrical unless it is mentioned they're spherical or something else. So the stock caps on your keyboard will be cylindrical.

Height profiles are generally one of the three you mentioned. OEM are the tallest in height. SP is Signature Plastics DCS height profile. It is lower than OEM, close to Cherry with some differences from it, the most prominent being the deeper slant on the two bottom rows. Cherry is Cherry's profile height. People use SP caps with Cherry sets due to the similarity. Each row has different heights within each profile, so the top rows are higher than the middle, which is higher than the bottom. If someone is discussing DSA, you should note that they are all the same height.

POM is a type of plastic, as are ABS and PBT. Generally, ABS caps are doubleshot per above, while PBT caps are dyesubbed. POM caps are usually laser etched or printed or pad printed. You can usually laser or pad printed any of the plastics. Recently, we've seen some doubleshot PBT caps which hasn't really been done before. It offers the resistance to shine PBT offers while offering the color ways that we generally see in doubleshot ABS, so people are excited for the possibilities but they currently aren't on full offer.

Those are what I was talking about in regard to the rows being higher than one another. Differently companies call them by different names, so its hard to pin down, but generally the top two rows are the tallest and usually the same height as each other, the next row down (QWER) is shorter, the one after that a bit shorter (ASDF) and the bottom two rows (ZXCV and mods) are the shortest. The bottom two are generally the same height, but some sets have the most bottom row a different profile. Usually those are seen in Cherry sets, where the normal (by today's standards) is called B while the older ones with a higher slant are called A.

Height doesn't affect compatibility. Some people just prefer one over the other. People who prefer OEM height seem to be the minority, but they exist. Generally, people prefer Cherry and settle for SP.

The height of caps in arrow clusters and such is based on the row they're in. Arrows are on the bottom two rows, so are the shortest height, and are usually the same height as each other.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 08:03:09 »
I wrote that all on my phone while sitting on the pot, so I hope you learn and enjoy.

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 08:08:55 »
Yes some of this can get confusing. It does not help that there are 3 naming conventions for row profiles, Cherry uses letters, while SP (1-4 top down) and OEM (4-1 top down) use numbers which are opposite of each other! For simplicity sake I only ever refer to Cherry convention and like to encourage others to do the same. They were first, so their naming scheme is the correct one, and the others are invalid! LOL.
Profile is the shape of the key, which also the height comes into play. There are 3 primary profile class that is most widely used which are Cherry, OEM (generic term for stock type keycap on Costar, iOne, etc) and Signature Plastics DCS, though there are many others that are less common that you might see mention on occasion. The vast majority of keyboards will come with OEM profile keycaps as stock. Cherry will come with Cherry naturally, and there are a very few current that have SP DCS like those made by Access-IS for example but lots of vintage ones like the well known WYSE.
Generally mixing profiles can feel quite funny while typing, though some combinations are less disturbing than others. It is generally best to pick a profile and stick with it on at least the main typing block.

moose, the bottom being shortest is not true. Home row is shortest. If you look at keyboard from side the row profiles sort of resemble a half cylinder with the top rows having a higher top edge, the home row being almost flat but not quite, then the 2 bottom rows having a higher bottom edge.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 April 2013, 08:13:43 by IvanIvanovich »

Offline Bencze

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 09:01:16 »
Thanks for all, @esoomenona, especially appreciate the effort! :)

At first I thought I can just get a bunch of keys and just slowly realizing it's not like that.
I made a small mistake, at deskthority I read about keyboard profiles which also depends if the support that holds the keys is curved or plain and I think we generally speak of the 'contoured keys' kind.
Yes R must be the row, I seen Esc key advertised as R4 key, probably because generally f (5) row is same as 4th row...
And we don't refer to the 0 row at all I guess because we all know those usual keys are on 0 row so no point in mentioning it...

I think whenever I am interested in something but I am not sure what it is or if it fits, I will ask in the respective selling thread. But this quick training was very useful, thanks.
I see a lot of people like Cherry profile keys so I will surely try them out.

In my reading I found a picture I liked so much I bookmarked it. I'm not sure who is the owner hope it's ok to repost it. :)

These key caps look like I would like typing on them. No way to be sure from looking but they look like they would feel good. :) It's like a cake I wanna eat feeling, beautiful, elegant :p probably some sort of Smeagol syndrome. I remember reading these are Cherry keys harvested from Cherry keyboards, but is this PBT? Looking for something similar in feel and look. Material definitely, colour why not if possible at least for a set, is anything similar being made nowadays?
-= QFR w/ mx blues - HPE87 w/ mx browns - Ducky 1087XM w/ green alps =-

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 09:27:16 »
Pictured is a black on white/beige Cherry ABS doubleshots with SP Cherry replica legend 1.25 modifiers. GMK company bought all of Cherry original tooling for keycap making so they are still in production now. First groupbuy with GMK just completed with more to follow in a couple month probably. While first GMK buy is officially closed it may be possible to pick up something 3-5 May if there is cancellation or outstanding orders.

Offline Bencze

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 09:29:34 »
Wow, good info, thanks.
-= QFR w/ mx blues - HPE87 w/ mx browns - Ducky 1087XM w/ green alps =-

Offline esoomenona

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Re: Keyboard and key cap profiles questions
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 27 April 2013, 09:45:24 »
Lysol, I see what you mean about those being shortest. And it makes sense because they are intended to create that same concavity of the IBM boards, right?