Toggling Your Brain: Dvorak v. QWERTY

[TastaturenAuslese]

I'm thinking of teaching myself Dvorak and going through the rigorous pang of rerouting my brain. Question for those who've done so, or perhaps know the answer to this:

How easy is it to switch back between Dvorak and QWERTY after learning the former? Am I going to mess up my brain and my typing skills in QWERTY, because I'm not entirely sure my brain can handle two different typing layouts?

[njbair]

I'm thinking of teaching myself Dvorak and going through the rigorous pang of rerouting my brain. Question for those who've done so, or perhaps know the answer to this:

How easy is it to switch back between Dvorak and QWERTY after learning the former? Am I going to mess up my brain and my typing skills in QWERTY, because I'm not entirely sure my brain can handle two different typing layouts?

I switched to Dvorak about 10 years ago. I can't type in QWERTY anymore without looking. I also game in QWERTY because it's just not worth remapping everything.

Maybe you should think about learning Colemak instead, as it's closer to QWERTY and therefore might be easier to switch between.

[Zustiur]

I find switching (between qwerty and Colemak) pretty easy but I have the advantage of a completely different physical layout to trigger a different mindset.

[TastaturenAuslese]

Hmmmm... Judging by the responses, I guess i shouldn't risk it. I'm only going to be using one keyboard, and I mostly wanted to learn Dvorak out of boredom, lol. Guess there's no point in fixing what's not broken, and I may end up breaking my qwerty skills even more.

Thanks for the responses guys

[Polymer]

Hmmmm... Judging by the responses, I guess i shouldn't risk it. I'm only going to be using one keyboard, and I mostly wanted to learn Dvorak out of boredom, lol. Guess there's no point in fixing what's not broken, and I may end up breaking my qwerty skills even more.

Thanks for the responses guys

I've thought about it for a long time...I'm sure at some point you can toggle between the two..it is just like anything...but the pain of doing it and going through that when you're faced with using QWERTY all over the place...It just wasn't worth it. 

If I had to learn to type all over again, it probably would've been a better choice...but since I'm satisfied with my speed...there is very little incentive to go through that pain...

[keshley]

I learned Dvorak a number of years ago before giving up on it - it took me about 30-60 minutes to switch between layouts, which killed the purpose of going Dvorak anyways (which is only 'arguably' more efficient). I also never gained the proficiency in Dvorak I had with Qwerty (90 WPM vs ~110 in Qwerty, at the time).

However, a guy I work with switches between them all the time without any problems. So just depends on how you're wired. I still like the idea behind Dvorak, but until I can switch to it 100%, I don't think its worth it.

[njbair]

I get the sense that maintaining efficiency in both layouts would require constant practice and discipline, which is more than I'm willing to invest most of the time. I can hunt and peck well enough on the QWERTY machines I'm faced with, but I don't think I could ever touch type in QWERTY again without relearning from scratch.

I've got a Planck keyboard coming. Maybe I'll set that up in Colemak and see if I like it better. I've already got all three layouts programmed into my TMK USB to USB converter, so I can switch freely between them regardless of what machine I'm using.

[Joey Quinn]

I've been using dvorak for about a year at this point and I could never touch type qwerty. When I switch to qwerty my wpm drops to about 25 (from 60). But all my boards are mapped to dvorak and I normally carry one to class so I don't normally have to type qwerty.

[henz]

i did a tour where i did colemak when i went to work and then qwerty at home.
I never got used to it. Rather than knowing one layout i knew two but was gimped to peck and hunt level almost

[ATXTider]

I've thought about switching to Colemak or Dvorak, but then I come back to my senses, and remember that I've only met one person in my 37 years who types in Dvorak, and I'd basically be hosed when I tried to use every other keyboard everywhere.

[RoastPotatoes]

I put a vote in for colemak. I switched maybe a year ago and I can no longer type qwerty.

[vivalarevolución]

I was switching between two layouts for awhile, one at work and one at home.  it took me a few minutes to adjust, but I figured it out.  I just stick with QWERTY now because I notice my biggest problems are with mouse usage.  Although i might go back to using the alternate layout.  QWERTY is dumb.

[njbair]

QWERTY is dumb.

/discussion

[jamster]

My brain has enough trouble toggling between qwerty boards that have switched capsock/control, and those that don't.

It would probably explode trying to deal with switching between qwerty and a whole other layout.

[njbair]

My brain has enough trouble toggling between qwerty boards that have switched capsock/control, and those that don't.

It would probably explode trying to deal with switching between qwerty and a whole other layout.

That's funny, because I often consider doing the whole caps/ctrl swapping, but I always change my mind because I don't want to have to deal with differences on other computers. Meanwhile I type in Dvorak, so figure that one out...

[SpartanD63]

I do switch between both. While I prefer Dvorak, I can still type fairly well in QWERTY and my keys are still arranged that way. (My girlfriend can't touch type, and is alienated by Dvorak) Ctrl+Shift+1/2 to switch. I also switch between the standard ANSI on the Model M and the funky layout of the Model F XT, without issue. The Ctrl to the left and caps lock bottom right works really well.

As a side note, I could never touch type with QWERTY, but I can easily with Dvorak, even focusing on other conversations than what I'm typing lol (Not saying I'm that good. Average of 40 WPM. Looking to figure out why I'm so slow. Probably in the brain to hand side of things.)

[Melvang]

My brain has enough trouble toggling between qwerty boards that have switched capsock/control, and those that don't.

It would probably explode trying to deal with switching between qwerty and a whole other layout.

My AT has Control in the standard AT position, and Caps Lock is on a function layer (I have to pull up the USB_CapSense app to use it because I can never remember where it is) and I usually only make that mistake once or twice when using other keyboards around the house.

I have considered making the switch to Dvorak as well for fun.  I don't type for a paycheck, so no issues there.  Just can't seem to get myself to make the full plunge.  One of these days I will do it.

Though I have heard that a lot of people have the best luck when making a major physical layout change on top of switching to Dvorak/Colemak/insert layout of choice here.  Plus these people seemed to have a high retention of Qwerty on standard keyboards.  This is just anecdotal from what I have read around the site, YMMV.

[Loonie]

I switched to Dvorak two years ago when I bought a Typematrix keyboard, which doesn't have the usual staggered layout and has the enter and backspace keys in the middle. It took quite a long time to get used to it but now I touch type without noticing. I could never touch type before, probably because I had never learnt to type properly.

I live in France so most people use AZERTY keyboards here and switching between the two is quite easy. It is slower than it used to be but it is not so bad. What gives me the most trouble is having to use modifiers when I wouldn't need to in Dvorak and vice versa, that is numbers, punctuation and accented letters. I automatically press them, even though the actual modifier keys are not in the same place as they are on my keyboard. Since Dvorak is basically a scrambled QWERTY, it seems I wouldn't have this problem if I had to switch between those two.

[Macsmasher]

I switched to Colemak about two years ago and really like it. However, I was surprised at how long it took for it to be second nature given that I quit qwerty completely. I'd say it took almost a year before I could just type without thinking about it. But I'm in my 50s and have been typing qwerty for 30+ years, so probably harder for an older guy.


I chose Colemak over Dvorak because Colemak was designed with computer use in mind. Dvorak was patented in 1936 with only typewriters in mind. If you use Windows keyboard shortcuts, you might find Colemak more to your liking.


Whether or not you should switch is purely subjective. I'm 80 - 85 wpm on 10FastFingers with Colemak which is fast enough to get the job done. However, I think you'll find the fastest typists in the world are still qwerty.


One side effect I didn't expect is keyboard switch preference. Colemak (and Dvorak) have reduced finger travel and a lot of typing is done on or adjacent to home row, so I now prefer lighter switches. With qwerty, there's a lot more finger travel and a heavier switch feels better. I've got a Realforce 55g 87U and a variable 87U. I love the feel of the 55g, but it's just too stiff when my fingers are primarily right above the keys I'm actuating. The variable is perfect. In addition, my typing style has changed. I used to attack the keyboard. Now I kind of 'tickle' the keys.

[njbair]

However, I think you'll find the fastest typists in the world are still qwerty.

Actually...

[Macsmasher]

However, I think you'll find the fastest typists in the world are still qwerty.

Actually...

Yeah, I've read about her. Very impressive. She actually lived about 45 minutes from me. I'm in Portland.

[samhwang]

I tried learning Dvorak back in Uni, it worked out really well for a while...

...Until I took on a part time job as a web developer. I had to be in the office and use their keyboards (I didn't have the luxuries of owning multiple keyboards back then). One of my solutions back then is to convert the layout into Dvorak in the software layer, so I can change it back to QWERTY easily for when my boss/senior wants to use it. Until one day we went into a huge conflict (didn't remember what it was about, but rage was definitely included), boss decided to grab the keyboard and do the testing himself. Since I haven't changed the layout back to QWERTY yet, he couldn't type properly and therefore, couldn't test anything at all. All I remembered was it all ended with "Don't you tamper with the office's property. Now get out, and don't let me see you again".

After that happened, I forced myself back into learning QWERTY and sticked with it ever since, for the convinience of myself and for other people around me.


A bit of background: I worked in a little Web Development Agency where there was a team of 3: me, a senior and the "boss". There was only 2 desktops and the boss' laptop. At home, my friends also occasionally borrow my computer, and also my family.

[Macsmasher]

In Win8+, you simply install another keyboard layout(s) in addition to qwerty. Just press Win + Spacebar to toggle between layouts. Couldn't be any easier. In Win7, there's a keyboard icon in the systray. Just click on it and select the layout.
[/size]
[/size]The point is, it's very easy for alternate keyboard layouts to coexist on a shared computer. Anybody who has a problem with that shouldn't be in IT.

[njbair]

In Win8+, you simply install another keyboard layout(s) in addition to qwerty. Just press Win + Spacebar to toggle between layouts. Couldn't be any easier. In Win7, there's a keyboard icon in the systray. Just click on it and select the layout.
[/size]
[/size]The point is, it's very easy for alternate keyboard layouts to coexist on a shared computer. Anybody who has a problem with that shouldn't be in IT.

Actually, Win XP+

[Melvang]

I would still much prefer dvorak switching at the hardware level for one reason.  My gaming prepherials,  I don't have key binds memorized to what letter they are on, but what key I have to move a thumb or finger to. 

When you change the layout at the software level in the OS, all your keybinds on say an Orbweaver or Nostromo get moved around.  When you change at the hardware level of the keyboard, your other peripherals stay the same.

[Macsmasher]

I would still much prefer dvorak switching at the hardware level for one reason.  My gaming prepherials,  I don't have key binds memorized to what letter they are on, but what key I have to move a thumb or finger to. 

When you change the layout at the software level in the OS, all your keybinds on say an Orbweaver or Nostromo get moved around.  When you change at the hardware level of the keyboard, your other peripherals stay the same.

Are you saying you can't change the key bindings within the games? I play left handed mouse, so I have to change all of my key bindings within every game I play.

[Melvang]

I can change the bindings in game, I just would rather have Dvorak at the hardware level so I don't have to remember to switch layouts on my orbweaver.

[davkol]

Some people definitely do it, it's just a matter of building the right triggers. There is quite an interesting discussion about it over at Ars Technica IIRC, and I've read a couple of studies on the topic.

I currently touch type in Colemak (on all kinds of physical keyboards: from Model M to my thinkpad to a typematrix to my ErgoDox) and only 8-finger hunt'n'peck in QWERTY, but it still confuses me. That's why I'm thinking of switching to Dvorak Simplified Keyboard: it's an ANSI standard, it's almost everywhere (thus enabling it is about as simple as enabling other national variants of QWERTY) and maximized hand alternation is arguably still more comfortable than "rolling" with adjacent (esp. shorter/weaker) fingers on legacy row-staggered unergonomic keyboards.

[Macsmasher]

Some people definitely do it, it's just a matter of building the right triggers. There is quite an interesting discussion about it over at Ars Technica IIRC, and I've read a couple of studies on the topic.

I currently touch type in Colemak (on all kinds of physical keyboards: from Model M to my thinkpad to a typematrix to my ErgoDox) and only 8-finger hunt'n'peck in QWERTY, but it still confuses me. That's why I'm thinking of switching to Dvorak Simplified Keyboard: it's an ANSI standard, it's almost everywhere (thus enabling it is about as simple as enabling other national variants of QWERTY) and maximized hand alternation is arguably still more comfortable than "rolling" with adjacent (esp. shorter/weaker) fingers on legacy row-staggered unergonomic keyboards.

I concur regarding the merits of Dvorak with regards to typing English text. But if Win keyboard shortcuts are important to you, I suggest you consider staying with Colemak.