Post by: Sylvester on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:19:33
The original intention of this boards was never copying LZ's design. To be honest, I didn't know LZ Se when I designed this case. I saw several Lz's boards on /r/mk such as CLS, CP, Iron, but SE was not familiar to me. I've never owned even one of Lz's boards. On the other hand, the idea behind Mars was mainly around the front side logo inserts. The straight line and Mars logo is another part of aluminum to be inserted in the holes. I've never saw another case has this design (tell me if I'm wrong).
After I designed this case, I shared this render with several friends. Some of them pointed out that it's too similar to the cheap 60% cases (https://kbdfans.cn/collections/case/products/mechanical-keyboard-shell-anode-aluminum-shell-gh60-poker-60-mechanical-keyboard-shell). That was my initial concern before IC was posted.
After IC was posted, someone pointed out the it's too similar to Lz SE. It indeed is. My first thought was this design should be a commonly used design because even the cheap 60% cases are using this design. I mentioned OTD 356CL and 356 mini because their bottom designs are all widely used on many boards nowadays. I thought that's the same case. Too many boards are using the same bottom design as 356CL but there's no dispute. I'm curious what's the borderline. You can say Mars is too similar to LZ Se but is there a way to measure it? I'm open for opinions. No need for sarcasm and trolling.
limitz mentioned the screw hole is a direct copy of LZ SE. Actually that' the only way to attach to top and bottom case if the edge is like that.
Again, I didn’t intend to copy others’ designs and I will never copy. The following are some modified designs
(https://i.imgur.com/IDyvkad.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/zQzieUB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Yiv4xVr.jpg)
Happy new year!
Sylvester
December 31, 2017
Edit:
If you are interested in Mars or have any suggestions, please fill in the form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_q0GGsrTJrRULBYptEIYEpFjVUdMAweRPStgKai2sSA
More
After the 60% project Snowflake (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=92506.0) was cancelled, I designed a new case but for 80% keyboards. I call it MARS 8.0
Here're some renders:
(https://i.imgur.com/t590TpY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5ZSBXP4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WXP0uKx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lVnj35b.jpg)
Find the full album here (https://imgur.com/a/7ZdGH).
The idea behind this design is to cut out legends/graphs in the front, then insert anodized aluminum parts into the cutouts.
Right now I just put a straight line and a "MARS" logo over there.
Feedback is welcome. I'm looking forward to making this board happen.
Post by: oatmicro on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:23:24
Edit: I'd prefer no straight line but it's ok
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:28:49
Edit: Big fan of a bit of ‘chin’ at the top, might just be the renders but it looks nice and solid
Post by: Sissy on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:29:05
Post by: wixxzblu on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:35:51
Post by: fublamchu on Thu, 28 December 2017, 08:57:16
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 28 December 2017, 09:45:46
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 28 December 2017, 09:46:33
You need a winkeyless option.
It has one, look at the bottom picture.
Post by: Peiweisgreat on Thu, 28 December 2017, 11:38:57
Looks like an LZ SE and a lambo case had a kid. Not for me.
Yeah kind of have to agree on this. The case design is a bit too plain for me. I'm not sure if that is the best wording for it, but the case itself doesn't do it for me. Also if you are going with a space theme, I'm not sure that the weight cutout fits very well. It's probably your logo or something like that, but it makes the theme a bit confusing. Maybe you can have that engraved somewhere on the board instead of adding it the weight?
Post by: Kafka on Thu, 28 December 2017, 11:47:45
Looks like an LZ SE and a lambo case had a kid. Not for me.
Yeah kind of have to agree on this. The case design is a bit too plain for me. I'm not sure if that is the best wording for it, but the case itself doesn't do it for me. Also if you are going with a space theme, I'm not sure that the weight cutout fits very well. It's probably your logo or something like that, but it makes the theme a bit confusing. Maybe you can have that engraved somewhere on the board instead of adding it the weight?
Yea is that a Reindeer?
Post by: cdn-mini on Thu, 28 December 2017, 11:50:21
Bring me something different and i will throw money at you.
Post by: Oscar2177 on Thu, 28 December 2017, 20:31:31
How long would this take to manufacture?
Post by: Unforgivable on Thu, 28 December 2017, 20:36:34
Grey/Red would be awesome too.
However, if you could remove the logo on the face I’d like it more. I very much enjoy a clean logo-less board. If a logo has to be placed, I’d much prefer it to be on the weight.
Will it be compatible with the TX87 PCB?
Very excited though, I hope this runs soon.
Post by: Sylvester on Fri, 29 December 2017, 07:25:03
Would buy this once the GB starts.
How long would this take to manufacture?
Still trying to make some modifications on the design, especially the front side inserts. After the design is final, everything will be fast.
Post by: Chromatrope on Fri, 29 December 2017, 07:33:28
Post by: fublamchu on Fri, 29 December 2017, 08:49:54
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Post by: limitz on Fri, 29 December 2017, 11:00:48
Post by: Sylvester on Fri, 29 December 2017, 15:24:57
LZ-SE clone down to the screw holes...
If you mean the bottom design is similar with LZ-SE, actually it's also similar with KBDfans 60% case (https://kbdfans.cn/collections/case/products/mechanical-keyboard-shell-anode-aluminum-shell-gh60-poker-60-mechanical-keyboard-shell).
This is one of several common used designs for the bottom case. Other commonly used classic designs include OTD 356CL, and OTD 356 mini.
The screw holes don't bother me too much since they're not visible in the front. Thanks for the comments tho
Post by: Sylvester on Fri, 29 December 2017, 15:27:17
Is there an estimated cost yet?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don't have a quote yet but a full aluminum kit should be within $300. Brass weight will increase the price.
Post by: limitz on Fri, 29 December 2017, 21:59:11
LZ-SE clone down to the screw holes...
If you mean the bottom design is similar with LZ-SE, actually it's also similar with KBDfans 60% case (https://kbdfans.cn/collections/case/products/mechanical-keyboard-shell-anode-aluminum-shell-gh60-poker-60-mechanical-keyboard-shell).
This is one of several common used designs for the bottom case. Other commonly used classic designs include OTD 356CL, and OTD 356 mini.
The screw holes don't bother me too much since they're not visible in the front. Thanks for the comments tho
Your board is a clone of a very well-known classic, didn't even try to make it different. It doesn't look similar to the KBDfans board, it looks identical to the SE, moreso since your board is a TKL. My screw hole comment reflects that you even copied the original down to the screw hole placement.
Deflecting by bringing up the CL or 356mini is laughable. And no, this is not one of the "commonly used designs", that's just bull****. Your side profile, screw placement, and USB hole placement are totally the same:
(https://i.imgur.com/Si38X2h.png)
vs:
(https://i.imgur.com/jigLSL7.jpg)
The back/side cut is essentially identical, even the rubber bump-on placement is practically the same:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZDLaP70.jpg)
vs:
(https://i.imgur.com/5ZSBXP4.jpg)
I mean you made the weight cut through, but given the rest of the board is a clone, the weight doesn't really set it apart.
Nice copy job, most derivative board of 2017.
Post by: Vulcan on Fri, 29 December 2017, 22:46:10
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Post by: zoomwalt on Fri, 29 December 2017, 23:47:23
http://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/news/articles/2015/2015-q3/Buckmark_1978_Original_Buckmark_and_Logotype.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/cq5dam.web.500.500.jpeg
Post by: megaforce on Sat, 30 December 2017, 01:04:57
LZ-SE clone down to the screw holes...
If you mean the bottom design is similar with LZ-SE, actually it's also similar with KBDfans 60% case (https://kbdfans.cn/collections/case/products/mechanical-keyboard-shell-anode-aluminum-shell-gh60-poker-60-mechanical-keyboard-shell).
This is one of several common used designs for the bottom case. Other commonly used classic designs include OTD 356CL, and OTD 356 mini.
The screw holes don't bother me too much since they're not visible in the front. Thanks for the comments tho
Your board is a clone of a very well-known classic, didn't even try to make it different. It doesn't look similar to the KBDfans board, it looks identical to the SE, moreso since your board is a TKL. My screw hole comment reflects that you even copied the original down to the screw hole placement.
Deflecting by bringing up the CL or 356mini is laughable. And no, this is not one of the "commonly used designs", that's just bull****. Your side profile, screw placement, and USB hole placement are totally the same:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Si38X2h.png)
vs:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/jigLSL7.jpg)
The back/side cut is essentially identical, even the rubber bump-on placement is practically the same:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZDLaP70.jpg)
vs:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/5ZSBXP4.jpg)
I mean you made the weight cut through, but given the rest of the board is a clone, the weight doesn't really set it apart.
Nice copy job, most derivative board of 2017.
LUL
Post by: papa on Sat, 30 December 2017, 07:54:46
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sat, 30 December 2017, 08:27:17
Calm down and listen to yourself, most of those arguments are about as valid as saying every car with 4 wheels and body shape x is a copy from "older car y".
Look closely. The screw holes are evenly spaced out and the distance between them is different from LZs design.
My screw hole comment reflects that you even copied the original down to the screw hole placement.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZDLaP70.jpg)
vs:
(https://i.imgur.com/5ZSBXP4.jpg)
You can clearly see that their screw holes start right at the border of the side cutouts while LZ left some space for bumpons to fit in between that.
[...] and USB hole placement are totally the same:
The USB placement on TKLs has been the same since the A.87 standard was made. But I guess literally everyone copied that from the LZ-SE and not from the OTD board it was first used in
even the rubber bump-on placement is practically the same:
LZ placed his bumpons right in the corners of the flat surface while the ones on the Mars are quite a bit away from that. I don't know how different you want them to be, maybe they belong on top of the board instead of on the bottom?
The only valid thing you brought up is the side cutout, hell even the back isn't as similar as you make it out to be. I wish they included a full on side shot so you couldn't deny that all the angles are very different. They gave the back of the top housing a flatter angle than the front, meaning that the angle between the top surface of the top housing and the "totally 100% copied" back of it are at an angle that's larger than 90 degrees. The LZ-SE and most other keyboards used 90 degrees at that part.
But what does a flatter angle at that place mean?
Well the footprint of the board gets larger and it makes the back look very bulky, you can combat that by removing some material on the bottom housing, leading to what we see now.
Something that looks kinda-sorta similar-ish.
If it wasn't for the side cutout there would be NOTHING in your statement that held any value.
Right now you only seem pissed about the possibility of your LZ-SE losing some value if this gets released, the way you are watering down your argumentation with pointless stuff instead of building up something objective only makes that assumption seem more and more valid.
Post by: OracleKev on Sat, 30 December 2017, 09:19:43
I don't get some GHer's attitudes condoning and supporting copycats. When the Raindrop keycap was copied, the community rallied against unsanctioned and disrespectful copying. Why should keyboard housing be any different?
It might serve the needs of many to have cheap and plenty keyboards, but copying is copying and stealing is stealing.
To me, what's going on here and with the Blackbird clone is despicable. The original design isn't even acknowledged. At least the replica projects in the past had the decency to self proclaim as replicas. They also came after years of drought.
I'm not advocating for banning copying or for scarce keyboard housing situations. I don't own LZ-SE, Blackbrid nor any old stuff.
It just seems wrong that copying takes place without due respect, casually bypassing the original designers.
I also don't think they would be ****head about copying. They don't do this for money and are aware of the community situations.
Post by: Helldrop on Sat, 30 December 2017, 09:37:28
Post by: oatmicro on Sat, 30 December 2017, 09:41:39
(https://i.imgur.com/7DWJfSw.jpg)
And they're okay with a ton of keyboards that have this bottom shape.
(https://i.imgur.com/z3mQ8Mz.jpg)
kek
Post by: P1kas on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:09:19
Post by: limitz on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:09:59
Right now you only seem pissed about the possibility of your LZ-SE losing some value if this gets released, the way you are watering down your argumentation with pointless stuff instead of building up something objective only makes that assumption seem more and more valid.
Considering the side cutout is really what makes a board, its the most important thing.
Secondly, my point about the screw placement is it can be entirely changed. Not the physical location of the screws, the style/placement. Most kustoms line the screw up with the top piece, but the LZ-SE screw placement style is very distinct. Only the Dolphin has a similar style, and even then, everything else about the two boards are different.
(https://i.imgur.com/TeArBFs.png)
Lastly, to the valuation argument, I really don't give a **** about that, nor do I own the more sought after feetless version. Matter of fact, clones generally increase the valuation of the real thing (especially high-end brands). Multiple studies have been done on it, and K3 has shown that well.
This is about copying an established design, especially since LZ is planning to release another SE in 2018. The side-profile, how the screws are placed, how the USB cutouts are made. Individually, they may be fine. But combining all of these factors together just points to a clone.
Post by: DanB on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:45:01
Post by: bluesclera on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:47:55
Post by: KaosJ on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:52:32
I think you should NOT push the thing "the lateral lines are the same" when in almost 2018 every line that you draw on the sides is a clone of something already made in the past (even if you don't see the original one), the only option is to make something terribly ugly that no one will buy, this surely will not have another keyboard with these lines (or maybe yes...).
The total design matters, not 2 lines on the sides that are the same on many keyboards.
The point here is that there are too many factors similar to the LZ, the whole design is really similar so to me it seems like this design was made with the LZ photo in the background on the monitor. Just my 2 cents
Post by: limitz on Sat, 30 December 2017, 10:53:51
Oh that's sexy. now i hope its a direct clone.
That's an EM7, the only other board with a similar screw placement style.
Post by: bluesclera on Sat, 30 December 2017, 11:01:17
Post by: cdn-mini on Sat, 30 December 2017, 11:18:14
Post by: Pell99 on Sat, 30 December 2017, 18:49:21
Post by: Vulcan on Sat, 30 December 2017, 18:56:12
I've been waiting for someone to do just a solid block of aluminum in TKL:I would buy this!!!
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Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:04:54
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Post by: Kafka on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:09:59
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:29:39
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
coming after CLSsxh
so instead of buying an ugly copy, you can buy the real thing
~~
I sent LZ a PM, we'll see what he says
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:52:22
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
coming after CLSsxh
so instead of buying an ugly copy, you can buy the real thing
~~
I sent LZ a PM, we'll see what he says
Yeah my bad then, that’s actually really great to hear. I’ll be watching for the thread if LZ is bringing back the SE :thumb:
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Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:54:12
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
coming after CLSsxh
so instead of buying an ugly copy, you can buy the real thing
~~
I sent LZ a PM, we'll see what he says
Yeah my bad then, that’s actually really great to hear. I’ll be watching for the thread if LZ is bringing back the SE :thumb:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://lzlife.tistory.com/353
he's said on kbdlab it'll be the old SE, but updated to modern standards (A.87)
Post by: cdn-mini on Sat, 30 December 2017, 20:54:52
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sat, 30 December 2017, 21:15:43
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
coming after CLSsxh
so instead of buying an ugly copy, you can buy the real thing
~~
I sent LZ a PM, we'll see what he says
Yeah my bad then, that’s actually really great to hear. I’ll be watching for the thread if LZ is bringing back the SE :thumb:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://lzlife.tistory.com/353
he's said on kbdlab it'll be the old SE, but updated to modern standards (A.87)
The page has ‘limited’ and ‘secret design’ in bold, so a 30 unit raffle-style GB aye..
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Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 30 December 2017, 21:16:35
Even if the design reminds people of the LZ, most people wouldn’t be able to afford or find an LZ-SE.. so I have no problem buying this which I can both afford *and* find :shrug:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LZ-SE 2018 is confirmed tho
coming after CLSsxh
so instead of buying an ugly copy, you can buy the real thing
~~
I sent LZ a PM, we'll see what he says
Yeah my bad then, that’s actually really great to hear. I’ll be watching for the thread if LZ is bringing back the SE :thumb:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://lzlife.tistory.com/353
he's said on kbdlab it'll be the old SE, but updated to modern standards (A.87)
The page has ‘limited’ and ‘secret design’ in bold, so a 30 unit raffle-style GB aye..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
50 fcfs, but i'd have to check my messages to confirm
Post by: ojrask on Sun, 31 December 2017, 05:30:37
Post by: nsmechkb on Sun, 31 December 2017, 07:39:50
Post by: Sylvester on Sun, 31 December 2017, 12:00:37
Post by: mudcakehoney on Sun, 31 December 2017, 12:09:06
Post by: Chromatrope on Sun, 31 December 2017, 12:20:39
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 31 December 2017, 12:47:32
the bottom shape isn't what makes the 356CL special, just as well it's pretty boring anyway
Post by: oatmicro on Sun, 31 December 2017, 13:07:19
just as well it's pretty boring anyway
Said by the guy who is hyped for LZ-Cls h :confused:
edit: by the way the new version is pretty nice, something bad happened but now we can move on.
keep it up! :thumb:
Post by: cdn-mini on Sun, 31 December 2017, 13:47:55
Post by: fublamchu on Sun, 31 December 2017, 13:54:59
Post by: oatmicro on Sun, 31 December 2017, 14:45:25
Now you lost me. Should of stood your ground, #&*k the cry babies.
Wannabe design-polices killed it but what can we do :(
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sun, 31 December 2017, 18:12:37
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Post by: mudcakehoney on Sun, 31 December 2017, 19:26:44
Post by: ojrask on Mon, 01 January 2018, 05:06:11
Can we have the new design with the stripe and logo still or is that permanently gone now?
Wondering about this too. The stripe and logo on top were what interested me visually. :)
Post by: wixxzblu on Mon, 01 January 2018, 05:40:43
Post by: Sylvester on Mon, 01 January 2018, 08:26:52
So judging by the bottom weight design, will there just be 19 boards?
It will be limited but not necessarily 19.
Post by: wylie on Tue, 02 January 2018, 09:43:44
Post by: Sylvester on Tue, 02 January 2018, 13:52:07
Can we have the new design with the stripe and logo still or is that permanently gone now?
Wondering about this too. The stripe and logo on top were what interested me visually. :)
They're not removed. I just made a render without the stripe and logo. I'm still trying to make some changes on the front design.
If you are interested in Mars or have any suggestions, please fill in the form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_q0GGsrTJrRULBYptEIYEpFjVUdMAweRPStgKai2sSA
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Tue, 02 January 2018, 20:09:42
I imagine the copper colour accent would look pretty decent with both silver of dark grey finishes.
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Post by: wylie on Fri, 05 January 2018, 04:11:58
Post by: ojrask on Fri, 05 January 2018, 11:47:54
Can we have the new design with the stripe and logo still or is that permanently gone now?
Wondering about this too. The stripe and logo on top were what interested me visually. :)
They're not removed. I just made a render without the stripe and logo. I'm still trying to make some changes on the front design.
If you are interested in Mars or have any suggestions, please fill in the form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_q0GGsrTJrRULBYptEIYEpFjVUdMAweRPStgKai2sSA
I see, thanks for clarifying. :)
Post by: papa on Mon, 15 January 2018, 22:28:49