[GB] cw80/60 by cruel world (70% SHIPPED)

[incrediblejr]

TL;DR: All CW60 production/GB units are fundamentally flawed, while FnF boards show significant differences and appear to be free from the same issue(s). If you are a group buy participant please fill in this opt-in Google form for replacement PCBs if you haven't already.

I'm glad Cobertt joined the conversation and shared their FnF board with us. It is evident that the FnF unit and the production unit differ in several ways. The size of the JST cutout, the anchoring of the weight, and the width of the JST channel all vary. And this is just based on one image! Who knows what other modifications have been made leading up to the production run? Could the PCB clearance have been lowered or a different PCB used for the production run? As those of us who have "fixed" the PCB have noticed that the reset button hits the bottom case, necessitating its desoldering as well. Maybe the reset button on FnF PCB is absent/different, or perhaps all FnF participants are light typists. For all intents and purposes, the FnF board could be considered a distinct board with similar aesthetics.

From the FnF board, we can see that the elusive MDPC-X JST cable could benefit from a little extra space, and the JST channel was probably widened for the production run to better accommodate it. However, in doing so, the JST cutout in the bottomcase was misaligned and made too small. How this was missed in the subsequent prototype(s) and testing of the production units is beyond me.

[a_saker]

TL;DR: All production/GB units are fundamentally flawed, while FnF boards show significant differences and appear to be free from the same issue(s)...

Is it all production units or just the CW60 SKUs? I have no issues or have not noticed any with multiple builds on my extras CW88

[Rhienfo]

TL;DR: All production/GB units are fundamentally flawed, while FnF boards show significant differences and appear to be free from the same issue(s).

I don't think it's all boards because there wasn't any issues with some boards, however it was a decent chunk of the boards it seems. This makes me believe that it was a production error on one/several batches of the boards, which says a lot about the qc because the problem would be noticed by putting the pcb in the case, though I am speculating there.

Is it all production units or just the CW60 SKUs? I have no issues or have not noticed any with multiple builds on my extras CW88

It was both types of units that had these problems, and there even SKUs that weren't even engraved apparently.

[incrediblejr]

Is it all production units or just the CW60 SKUs? I have no issues or have not noticed any with multiple builds on my extras CW88

Assumed too much context, updated wording.

The CW87/88 JST cutout sure does rival the mess of CW60 and friends/others have reported that the JST connector hits the bottomcase. It's not like there is different types of production units but rather that some notice it and some don't. I haven't had a CW87/88 at hand to try and inspect personally so I can not comment further.

[airs]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

[audax989]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

Show Image

oh damn, did you have to rip those connectors apart? I just ordered a set of these molex connectors from digikey so let's see if I can do the same thing you did.

[Ranker2]

Was shorted PC plates in all 3 of my keyboard orders.  Sent a support email three times now over the last 4 months but still haven't had a response.  Anyone getting any response from GB runner at all?

[incrediblejr]

Was shorted PC plates in all 3 of my keyboard orders.  Sent a support email three times now over the last 4 months but still haven't had a response.  Anyone getting any response from GB runner at all?

You are not alone; my replacement request has neither been acknowledged nor fulfilled, but that shouldn't surprise anyone at this point.

Obligatory reminder: All GB participants have to play along with the charades and fill in this opt-in Google form in order to get your replacement PCB(s).

[kira_]

What's the likelihood this mess gets sorted out before October? Honest question since I have 0 clue what pcb manu is like

[Rhienfo]

What's the likelihood this mess gets sorted out before October? Honest question since I have 0 clue what pcb manu is like

Honestly pcb manu takes a while so even if this problem was found immediately and they put to work the manufacturer it would probably take October November to get the mess sorted, considering this project specifically, I would imagine 2024 as a general statement (if the issue gets fixed at all which to be fair to the runner, seems like they are trying to help but have other commitments, but of course I could be wrong so don't count on it, especially with the lack of communication that is happening with some people, including in this thread.)

[kira_]

Damn that's longer than I expected. TY for the estimation. Guess I will mod my pcb in the meantime.

[audax989]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

Show Image

wait I just noticed your pcb is not the CW one. which pcb did you use?

[kira_]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

Show Image

wait I just noticed your pcb is not the CW one. which pcb did you use?

Probably Geon ApolloH. They mentioned it earlier and it looks the same.

[airs]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

Show Image

wait I just noticed your pcb is not the CW one. which pcb did you use?

Probably Geon ApolloH. They mentioned it earlier and it looks the same.

Yep!

[airs]

I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.

oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?

Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.

Show Image

oh damn, did you have to rip those connectors apart? I just ordered a set of these molex connectors from digikey so let's see if I can do the same thing you did.

I wouldn’t say rip haha. It comes without a JST connector in that spot so I just soldered an EZmate there and presto

[audax989]

I was able to build mg cw88 by using the Bastion tkl from cannon keys with the molex connector. I also got the matching molex daughterboard and cable since the molex connector on the bastion is a bit further down than it usually is. I don’t experience the pcb bottoming out but there is very little space below the hotswap sockets.

Overall I like the typing feel of the board. Just sad things ended up the way they are. I need those shims tho.

Edit: It appears that my 1.5u mods are a bit crooked. Time to email Cannonkeys about it.

[treeleaf64]

A month has passed since last Discord update where they teased Pixy PCBs with fun art, ne pictures avail? It's also been three months since they said that replacement PCBs, the workaround for too small JST cutout in the bottomcase, for THIS GB would be prototype ready within a few days. Don't forget, they also estimated that the DB shims for the misaligned USB port would have been completed about two months ago. But all we've seen so far is a render from a month ago. Why bother with these time estimates at this point?

We are living in a cruel world

[Rhienfo]

We are living in a cruel world

So true

[incrediblejr]

Someone deleted my previous message, the one that Treeleaf quoted, which currently sits two posts above this one. I would appreciate an explanation; my DMs are open.

The gist of the deleted post was that CW teased a new project without first fulfilling their obligations for THIS GB. There have been delays, broken promises/time estimates, and they have closed the opt-in Google form for PCB replacements. This was a workaround for the design flaw of a too small/narrow JST cutout in the bottom case, and I proposed contacting them through their support to resolve the issue. That being said, I would appreciate hearing the reasoning as to why my previous post was deleted.

[incrediblejr]

Update on Discord shows a supposed prototype PCB that they are now beginning to test for fitting, nearly four months after the design flaw was brought to their attention. I think it goes without saying that now is not the time to rush. We have to hope that they test with gasket socks of varying hardnesses, as gasket tolerances is the reason the JST cutout is too small according to CW.

Is the new cable Molex-Molex or Molex-JST? Will they be MDPC-X sleeved? Why wasn't the DB shims for the misaligned USB-port opt-in like the replacement PCBs? Where are they? Did they solve the misaligned USB-port? Why isn't CW updating this thread? Wasn't one of the reasons to make the the Discord server ping-only to enable better communication?

So many questions, so few answers. So until CW comes back I will continue to relay the updates from Discord here, although with snark, BS filter and common sense applied.

[yourfavorite]

I was able to build mg cw88 by using the Bastion tkl from cannon keys with the molex connector. I also got the matching molex daughterboard and cable since the molex connector on the bastion is a bit further down than it usually is. I don’t experience the pcb bottoming out but there is very little space below the hotswap sockets.

Overall I like the typing feel of the board. Just sad things ended up the way they are. I need those shims tho.

Edit: It appears that my 1.5u mods are a bit crooked. Time to email Cannonkeys about it.

How did this end up going for you? I'm thinking about ordering this PCB to get a hotswap build going in the cw88. I'm assuming you used the C4 daughterboard that CK sells?

https://cannonkeys.com/products/unified-c4-daughterboard

[soloplayer]

any news?

[honoka]

any news?

No news that I've seen. Solidifying my thoughts about this being the blunder of the century when it comes to design vs functionality.
Ridiculously bad attention to detail and ridiculously bad managing of the solution.
Also, we still have not gotten any type of information about why this happened.

[incrediblejr]

Also, we still have not gotten any type of information about why this happened.

We will never get an answer to this. I imagine it not as fun engaging here when every other message isn’t from their friends stroking their ego with some variant of “Sheesh”, “Don’t sleep on this one” or “Jane killer” but rather ones that highlights their incompetence.

They have been lurking Geekhack ever since their flawed design got exposed five months ago in the Reddit post PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws but have chosen to stay silent. The only explanation they have given for the too small JST cutout in the bottom case was because gasket socks tolerances were out of spec. I haven’t been able to go through all the mental gymnastics that that explanation would entail for it to be even remotely plausible but we all know that it is BS, all CW60 units are affected. This makes the process of getting a replacement PCB to fix the flawed design an opt-in process disingenuous at best.

Kind of ironic that getting replacement PCBs to fix the flawed design will take longer than the originally promised GB fulfillment time, if they ever come that is.

[soloplayer]

feel bad for anyone who bought the 60 variant. fortunately my silver cw88 is flawless, but what i'm expecting is the plateless kit. seems like i would never see that kit coming to the spotlight

[audax989]

I was able to build mg cw88 by using the Bastion tkl from cannon keys with the molex connector. I also got the matching molex daughterboard and cable since the molex connector on the bastion is a bit further down than it usually is. I don’t experience the pcb bottoming out but there is very little space below the hotswap sockets.

Overall I like the typing feel of the board. Just sad things ended up the way they are. I need those shims tho.

Edit: It appears that my 1.5u mods are a bit crooked. Time to email Cannonkeys about it.

How did this end up going for you? I'm thinking about ordering this PCB to get a hotswap build going in the cw88. I'm assuming you used the C4 daughterboard that CK sells?

https://cannonkeys.com/products/unified-c4-daughterboard

It's been working well so far. and yes I used the CK daughterboard and cable as well. I just changed out the plate to Alu and been enjoying it so far. the CW88 has been one of my better sounding boards in the collection. its tragic how this all ended up. I hope CW fulfills all the open items for this board but that doesn't seem plausible at this point.

[lofi_network]

Is there anyone who's friends with this dude who can ping him for an update? He doesn't respond to emails and hasn't updated his discord in almost 3 months. I don't even have an issue with waiting, but with all the exit scamming this year literally any communication would be nice.

[incrediblejr]

It has been over six months since the Reddit post PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws, and almost three months since the last communication in the CW Discord regarding replacement PCBs and DB shims to fix a few of CW60 many issues. For reference, Justin is now fulfilling orders for the 700+ units Derivate group buy, seven months post-group buy. In the same period, CW has only managed to display two images of a PCB. To further emphasize CW's incompetence, Justin will have successfully fulfilled three major GBs (Cloudline, Moment, Derivate), while we are still awaiting the board promised to us in the GB.

Is there anyone who's friends with this dude who can ping him for an update? He doesn't respond to emails and hasn't updated his discord in almost 3 months. I don't even have an issue with waiting, but with all the exit scamming this year literally any communication would be nice.

Both CW and their friends frequent GeekHack so if they had any intention to help out or fix this mess of a GB they would have done it by now.

[Rhienfo]

It has been over six months since the Reddit post PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws, and almost three months since the last communication in the CW Discord regarding replacement PCBs and DB shims to fix a few of CW60 many issues. For reference, Justin is now fulfilling orders for the 700+ units Derivate group buy, seven months post-group buy. In the same period, CW has only managed to display two images of a PCB. To further emphasize CW's incompetence, Justin will have successfully fulfilled three major GBs (Cloudline, Moment, Derivate), while we are still awaiting the board promised to us in the GB.

Jesus 6 months, it doesn't feel like that.

Is it just the pcb that is the issue here, if the runner won't offer replacements I guess someone else could design an open source on and just people order it, if something like a hiney pcb is compatible. At least people will get usable boards even if the runner flaked and not fufilled on their promises.

[tactilesbad]

lmao dude lost face and bailed, absolute ridiculous behavior

how hard could it be to pick up some open source 60% pcb like the waffling60 and relocate the jst connector to match the botched hole in the board?
community effort could solve this in a week - even though I completely agree the cost of it all should not be shouldered by the GB backers

[alspdx]

I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.

[tactilesbad]

I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.

desolder the JST connector on the pcb and solder the JST wires directly on the pcb, at least you won't ruin the board.


Mod edit: Removed speculation

[Dewstem]

I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.

desolder the JST connector on the pcb and solder the JST wires directly on the pcb, at least you won't ruin the board.


Mod edit: Removed speculation

What was the speculation?

[honoka]

Where else would you like us to share thoughts, concerns, questions and speculation?
The official discord server is dead.
This thread is the only other option for us to communicate.

If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.

Honestly, you can't just go in and edit people's posts while completely ignoring the real issue. I have been a member for a long time and I have never been so displeased with the platform as I am right now. At no point in time has this thread gone out of control.

Do not censor us. If you are above the community, I'm leaving.

[Rhienfo]

I'd also want to know why it was removed for mod speculation, tried check wayback machine but it only goes back to july this year.

If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.

To be fair to the mods if the runner has ghosted in a lot of places then they probably won't respond to the mods dms as well. There is not a lot people can do if someone is avoiding responsibility for their mistakes like this (or at least that's how it feels, due to the absolute lack of communication)

[Oni]

I'd also want to know why it was removed for mod speculation, tried check wayback machine but it only goes back to july this year.

If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.

To be fair to the mods if the runner has ghosted in a lot of places then they probably won't respond to the mods dms as well. There is not a lot people can do if someone is avoiding responsibility for their mistakes like this (or at least that's how it feels, due to the absolute lack of communication)

At the risk of this getting removed or edited, I believe their message before it got edited by the moderators was basically calling out the runner for trying to quickly move onto new GB projects like Pixy despite outstanding issues in this GB.

[Dewstem]

I'd also want to know why it was removed for mod speculation, tried check wayback machine but it only goes back to july this year.

If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.

To be fair to the mods if the runner has ghosted in a lot of places then they probably won't respond to the mods dms as well. There is not a lot people can do if someone is avoiding responsibility for their mistakes like this (or at least that's how it feels, due to the absolute lack of communication)

Someone deleted my previous message, the one that Treeleaf quoted, which currently sits two posts above this one. I would appreciate an explanation; my DMs are open.

The gist of the deleted post was that CW teased a new project without first fulfilling their obligations for THIS GB. There have been delays, broken promises/time estimates, and they have closed the opt-in Google form for PCB replacements. This was a workaround for the design flaw of a too small/narrow JST cutout in the bottom case, and I proposed contacting them through their support to resolve the issue. That being said, I would appreciate hearing the reasoning as to why my previous post was deleted.

At the risk of this getting removed or edited, I believe their message before it got edited by the moderators was basically calling out the runner for trying to quickly move onto new GB projects like Pixy despite outstanding issues in this GB.

There was this other message/post that was removed

Edited as I input into the wrong line

[Kokaloo]

Thank goodness the geekhack team put together the vendor rating system so we can stop speculating about if defective products will ever be replaced!

[Rafa_n]

Props to the Drop/Corsair janny for removing any dangerous "speculation".

Maybe if someone starts "speculating" in any noxary thread you can remove that too 

[tactilesbad]

speculation LMFAO

it is a fact that the discord server was set to read-only mode right before initiating the (poorly handled) shipping phase, after missing all deadlines multiple times.
it is a fact that cw was impatiently pushing a GB for a new TKL way before the shipping/aftersales phase of the cw60/80 was even remotely done.
it is a fact that the jst clearance issues were brought to light literal weeks if not days before this new GB was supposed to take place, essentially requiring cw to halt any activity in order to focus on remaking the pcb and designing a silicone shim to make up for the botched daughterboard placement.
it is a fact that there is no evidence of the pcb or the shim being even produced in over 7 months of the issue being acknowledged, apart from 2 (two) pcb renders being posted on said discord server.
it is a fact that the current status is absolute radio silence.

this is customer feedback based on facts directly observed during this absolute trainwreck of a GB. glad too see it's deemed "speculation" around here.

[screen]

I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.

Did you end up trying this?

[nightmaremode]

I had decent results building my CW60 with a 1.2mm PCB (in my case the Hiney H60 "purple nurple") and shaving a ~.5mm corner onto the top and bottom edges of the JST connector on the PCB with a hobby knife.  It's built in enough clearance that I can push down on the keys over the cutout area and not have the connector contact the edges of the cutout. (PC plate, stock gasket socks)

I was also able to use thin stabilizer washers to put the db at the right height.  I personally got best results with the washers included with TX screw-in stabs but I don't think the variance between washers is that big.  Maybe not the thick silicone ones like what come with Staebies.

CW still owes us the promised solutions as a bare minimum effort to make right, but at least I don't have to have a half-finished project on my workbench as a constant reminder.

It's a damn good board when it's built (as is my CW88), but it shouldn't have taken this much extra time, effort, and expense to get it there.

[hamilton]

I finally just ended up de-soldering the JST connector on mine. Obviously wasn't ideal, but at least it's actually usable now.

[honoka]

Don't sleep on this one.

I wish I did.

You have said to be friends with Cruelworld.
What's going on?

[honoka]

We can see that you have been online a couple of times recently @cruelworld

Any updates to share?

[incrediblejr]

Don't sleep on this one.

I wish I did.

You have said to be friends with Cruelworld.
What's going on?

You, me, and all the other 1200+ GB participants would rather have slept on this trainwreck of a GB. More than a year delayed, only to be delivered a fundamentally flawed designed keyboard. Geekhack is probably not their friends (*) preferred platform to engage in conversation, as here they do not have strength in numbers to gang up and bully, can't control the narrative, don't have moderator privileges (although they do a fine job of reporting, as we can see in this thread), or the option to delete messages if the conversation doesn't go their way.

(*) I'm not saying that Cobertt is CW's friend, since we're still waiting for their answer. Just trying to spare us all from an episode of pearl-clutching. They said they were friends earlier in the thread.

[incrediblejr]

We can see that you have been online a couple of times recently @cruelworld

Any updates to share?

If by recently you mean "since their flawed design was exposed in the Reddit post 8 months ago" you are absolutely correct. We are still waiting for an explanation of how the gasket sock tolerances made the JST cutout too small in the bottom case, which we all know is BS and all CW60s are affected. They have had ample time to refute this; it has been stated for over 8 months. Instead, we have had to play along with their charades of making the PCB replacement an opt-in process, as if not all CW60s are affected (they are), and listen to their empty promises of how they are "determined to make everything right" and how hard they are working. We understand the predicament they are in, as a lot of people were exposed/slimed by their incompetence and the financial aspect of it. How about being a mensch and just doing the right thing? They surely can come up with a BS explanation filled with plausible deniability wording. We know, as we have had to listen to it throughout the GB process.

[audax989]

would love to at least hear something from ACW whether or not things are still moving forward or what not.

he's definitely still around since his last log in was a week ago. As an early gb supporter (then proceeded to get my board late) while pre orders were fulfilled first that pissed me off the most. I did get my board and pretty happy with it despite the issues.

I just wished he had a little more decency in him to see this through.

[tactilesbad]

Don't sleep on this one.

I wish I did.

You have said to be friends with Cruelworld.
What's going on?

good luck getting a word out of their simps

[honoka]

Cobertt is not a simp!
He is a  Trust & Safety Admin Team Member of the MK Vendor Trust and Safety System.