Author Topic: Functional 75% keyboard layout and left hand numpad  (Read 17361 times)

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Offline ikonomov

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Functional 75% keyboard layout and left hand numpad
« on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:05:27 »
I'm posting a proposal for a keyboard layout with a modification to the standard ANSI TKL layout that shortens the keyboard as much as possible in order to maximize the comfort when using mouse.  A separate numpad can be added on the left side of the keyboard for use with the left hand.  This allows entering numbers without moving the right hand away from the mouse or reducing mouse area.  An additional benefit of using the numpad with the left hand is that it can improve productivity by allowing arrow key navigation while typing numbers.

295278-0

75% ANSI

Numpad
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 January 2023, 10:02:22 by ikonomov »

Offline noway

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:32:47 »
Looks good!

I was looking for a 13" keyboard that I could sit on my Thinkpad lid when using an external monitor.  Ended up getting a Thinkpad USB keyboard but would rather have been able to get a 13" mechanical USB keyboard with dedicated arrow keys but they are rare and more money than what I bought.
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:35:46 by noway »

Offline Eyud

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 15:47:23 »
First compact layout I've seen that I'd actually consider using. Generally I don't like anything smaller than TKL.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 17:49:10 »
I'm happy you guys agree with me.  I've added a version with a number pad.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 11:33:08 by ikonomov »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 19:37:21 »
I agree that the missing sixth row is silly but would argue that on a 60% is easy enough to add F keys and arrows can be one handed on a layer so for me it's either pretty much fullsize or 60% and anything between makes compromises without any benefit (adding keys in different positions on a 65% requires learning what's default and still need a layer as well as extra caps, while TKL has too much wasted space to justify it's width as well as looking weird)

Your 'fullsize' is great but it's wider than my daily driver CP-SQ and has less keys:

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I would prefer a big numberpad 0 but other than that this is perfect for me.
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Offline dusan

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 22:50:26 »
OP: your layout is inferior to the TKL layout in that it makes very hard to press Shift+Ctrl+Left arrow with one hand.
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Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 23:07:07 »
the problem with "keyboard with less than 6 rows" is that the Fn key (for accessing layer) is in an inconvenient location (like your Fn between right Alt and right Ctrl)

if you get rid of that (useless) Capslock and put Fn there, it would be easier for you to access the layer (and "F"unction keys in 60% keyboard)
I, myself, split my spacebar to: Space - Fn - right Shift, the space is 2.25u so I only need to stretch my left thumb a bit for the Fn key. (by the way, I replaced Capslock with Control - HHKB style layout). My right thumb hit the right Shift (of the split-spacebar)

ergonomic-wise, accessing the Capslock is easier than the bottom-left Ctrl.

some people dislike generic 75% keyboard because there is no spacing between the 6th and 5th row, but I guess it's mainly about aesthetic.

I'm not saying your 75% keyboard is bad but it still use layer, a bit away from the "user friendly" TKL (in which layer is not mandatory)

but if you want compact size, layer is required.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 00:53:43 »
Hi, I would like to respond and defend my proposed layout, but I would also like to make it clear that I do so with an intention to try not to criticize your keyboards and how you personally use them.  I think the more keyboards on the market with different designs, the better chance we'll have to find the one that suits our particular need.

I would prefer a big numberpad 0 but other than that this is perfect for me.

That is the main reason why my proposed 80% is the size that it is.  It makes no compromises on the number pad.  I don't use a number pad much anymore, but if I do I want my thumb to rest in the right position.  I don't think having a small 0 and especially if it is, having it in the wrong position is acceptable.  I think it defeats the purpose of having a number pad, which is entering numbers as efficiently and comfortably as possible.

Your keyboard has ISO layout, not ANSI.  Normally keyboards with ISO layout do have more keys, in this case your keyboard has 101 and my proposed design has 100.  My layout is also wider by exactly one column of keys, so it definitely doesn't have as many keys per given area, not to mention that a number of keys are also wider because of the different layout.  It also has unused empty space around keys.  The unused space around keys has a purpose, however, it is very much part of the design of a keyboard that helps it function as well as it does.  I also think that comparing these layouts is really not a very good comparison because there are key differences that exist simply because of the different ISO vs ANSI layouts in the main key cluster.  The goal of my layout is to maximize functionality of the ANSI layout by placing the additional keys around the main cluster in optimal positions, which would be different on a keyboard with ISO layout.

I agree that the missing sixth row is silly but would argue that on a 60% is easy enough to add F keys and arrows can be one handed on a layer so for me it's either pretty much fullsize or 60% and anything between makes compromises without any benefit (adding keys in different positions on a 65% requires learning what's default and still need a layer as well as extra caps, while TKL has too much wasted space to justify it's width as well as looking weird)

You've said a lot of things in this one sentence, but I would like to respond to your points.  Our visual perception of the design is subjective and would inevitably be influenced by what we see as the ultimate function.

Missing sixth row is silly, because removing it doesn't help the ergonomics of the keyboard.  Saving the vertical space doesn't serve any purpose, save for carrying a few grams less if you need it to be portable.  Would those grams justify the compromise in functionality is for people to decide for themselves, but having the functionality being the primary goal of the design, in my opinion, it doesn't.

Removing the arrow keys saves one column of space horizontally.  Does this help the keyboard ergonomically?  Absolutely.  Every little bit of extra space saved horizontally means more area for the mouse to move, while the arrow keys can be mapped in any position on an Fn layer.  However:
1. Arrow keys now require having an Fn key being pressed while using them. While it is possible to use only one hand for the arrow keys by having your right thumb press the Fn key, this is not the same thing as having instant access to those keys.
2. The empty space around the arrow keys, and I think for most people especially the empty space to the right of the arrow keys plays a major role in allowing those keys to be located instantly by the right hand.  I don't think it would be possible to have the Fn and arrow keys accessible with the right hand only and have them in a place where they would be as easy to locate.
3. The whole purpose of not having dedicated arrow keys would be to have the keyboard narrower by one column.  In my proposed layout design that would also mean having 3 additional keys less.  They could even be 4 or 5.  Why 3 and not 4 or 5?  Because exactly those 3 keys are enough to provide instant access to three of the most used keys (plus 3 more easily accessible with Fn and one hand), while the space around them is there as a guide to help your fingers locate those keys easily.

You mention anything between 60% and full size as a compromise and not having any benefits.  The benefit is maximizing functionality while saving horizontal space.  That's it.  A 60% keyboard is probably as small as most people would want to go before crippling the functionality too much and there is no keyboard that is smaller than a full size keyboard that will have the same functionality as a proper full size keyboard.  However, I think there are layout designs in between where a great balance can be found between functionality and usable saved space.

OP: your layout is inferior to the TKL layout in that it makes very hard to press Shift+Ctrl+Left arrow with one hand.

heheh

some people dislike generic 75% keyboard because there is no spacing between the 6th and 5th row, but I guess it's mainly about aesthetic.
I'm not saying your 75% keyboard is bad but it still use layer, a bit away from the "user friendly" TKL (in which layer is not mandatory)
but if you want compact size, layer is required.

I find the missing spacing between the 5th and 6th row to be a huge compromise in the ease of use of the 6th row keys.  I totally agree about the use of Fn layer for normal keys taking the design away from the "user friendly" category.  I myself find TKL the optimal size for me, but if I could gain some space for my mouse with a small compromise, this is how I would be willing to do it.  The standard ANSI layout is pretty much perfect as it is, but since most people don't use regularly all the keys maybe the compromise is quite small and could be justified.

« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 09:30:31 by ikonomov »

Offline funkmon

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:08:31 »
I have yet to see a single video or a person explaining a scenario where making their keyboard with less than 6 rows would benefit their ergonomics or their work space. 

You haven't? You haven't seen literally every single rationalization of a 40% layout where the guy explains that a function layer allows him to keep his fingers on the home row for more of the time?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:18:03 »
The diagram below is a design that I've been patiently waiting for years now, and yet it has not come.
That's almost a dead ringer for the Idobao ID80.

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« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:22:11 by Leslieann »
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:30:09 »
You haven't? You haven't seen literally every single rationalization of a 40% layout where the guy explains that a function layer allows him to keep his fingers on the home row for more of the time?

Ah, I forgot about that one.  Yep, I've heard it couple of times, and I guess it must be there in every single review until the world accepts it as a universal truth.  There is definitely some logic behind the argument, but it's a bit like justifying living in a camper trailer.  Portable and everything inside is easily accessible without having to move much.    :)

Edit: Pushing this logic further one can make an argument that the ideal keyboard is one that has 10 keys.  You put all your fingers on the keys and then type by pressing the keys in different combinations without ever having to move your fingers off of them.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:47:06 by ikonomov »

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:39:53 »
That's almost a dead ringer for the Idobao ID80.

Similar, but not quite.  This is the type of keyboard layout that I would not compromise for.  Specifically because of the clutter of the 6th row with an extra key.

Offline noway

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:15:23 »
The Leopold FC660M might be another layout that would take up less space, 12.8" wide


Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:15:40 »
Hi, I would like to respond and defend my proposed layout, but I would also like to make it clear that I do so with an intention to try not to criticize your keyboards and how you personally use them.  I think the more keyboards on the market with different designs, the better chance we'll have to find the one that suits our particular need.
Completely agree :) 

Fast forward a few years after Filco first started mass producing TKL Cherry MX keyboards, and we enter into the age of function follows form.  What does that mean?  It means that keyboards are now designed primarily to appeal visually to the people that will buy them.
That's almost a dead ringer for the Idobao ID80.

Similar, but not quite.  This is the type of keyboard layout that I would not compromise for.  Specifically because of the clutter of the 6th row with an extra key.
Form or function? :p

I would prefer a big numberpad 0 but other than that this is perfect for me.
That is the main reason why my proposed 80% is the size that it is.  It makes no compromises on the number pad.
If I'm doing a lot of numbers I switch to the layer where right arrow is also 0.  You go left to change things and you go up and down, but to go right you use Tab or End so it's surprisingly functional.  Tab is of course on Num Lock - you don't want to turn that off if you're doing lots of numbers so why waste a key on it?  Similarly Print Screen becomes backspace as no-one wants to see your numbers.

Your keyboard has ISO layout, not ANSI.  Normally keyboards with ISO layout do have more keys
ISO has a key next to enter while ANSI has one above, the only other extra key due to ISO is next to right shift and you don't need that so our key count is essentially the same and you could 'ISO-ize' your layout.  Split 'Backspace' is a popular option on 60% boards so why not use it on a smaller one.

You mention anything between 60% and full size as a compromise and not having any benefits.  The benefit is maximizing functionality while saving horizontal space.  That's it.
We agree here, I should have said 61% to essentially full size (my board is 'full size' even though it's 3u narrower)  Do you really have exactly 3 keys that are more used than others?  Apparently you do and that's great.  Delete is obvious if you insist on using a big backspace but I use Page Up and Down no more than Home, End or Print Screen.  I suppose FN+Delete would add that third extra key and maybe justify it's 1u of desk space...

I just tried to adapt your layout with my keymap and noticed one big problem with your design - your spacebar is a strange size at 5.75u.  6.25u is everywhere, 6u is true HHKB so you can get them but there are no 5.75u caps.  Think I know another reason why 75% boards have a gap for the arrows too... Here's a KLE link if you want a play.  Split spacebar fits but you lose your standard cap compatibility

OP: your layout is inferior to the TKL layout in that it makes very hard to press Shift+Ctrl+Left arrow with one hand.
This is the main drawback of a 60% - you cannot do this combo one handed.  On the layout proposed here (which is almost the same as my board in this area) I use index finger on Ctrl, middle on shift and have two fingers left for arrows.  You could also use thumb on Ctrl, index finger on Shift or index on Ctrl+Shift and have three fingers for arrows - which works for you would depend on your hand shape and size but I think one would work for most people :)

You haven't seen literally every single rationalization of a 40% layout where the guy explains that a function layer allows him to keep his fingers on the home row for more of the time?
This is true and valid but if you're looking at a 75% or bigger board it's not what you're going for.  I am yet to see any <60% with dedicated arrow keys - and rightly so!
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 12:01:28 »
Fast forward a few years after Filco first started mass producing TKL Cherry MX keyboards, and we enter into the age of function follows form.  What does that mean?  It means that keyboards are now designed primarily to appeal visually to the people that will buy them.
That's almost a dead ringer for the Idobao ID80.

Similar, but not quite.  This is the type of keyboard layout that I would not compromise for.  Specifically because of the clutter of the 6th row with an extra key.
Form or function? :p
Function.  The spaces around the function keys are needed to make them easier to locate.  That's why they are 12 and not 14.  Some IBM keyboards had 24 function keys.

Thank you for sharing the awesome keyboard layout editor site.  I've made both versions and updated the images above.  The Spacebar is indeed not standard, it is 5.75 units long.  However if you look very closely you'll see that it's almost perfectly centered in relationship to the default hand position, so it is fully functional.  The standard 1st row Spacebar isn't perfectly centered either.  Making a keyboard with this design will require using non-standard keycap sets, and this is not ideal, in fact it's one of the main reasons why I've been using a TKL keyboard for all those years.  However if it's a design that many people can adopt and use efficiently, over the years keycap manufacturers will be more willing to create more options for us.  When Filco first introduced their Majestouch it wasn't standard either.  I'm not advocating that using non-standard keycaps is a good idea, but it is a compromise that all non standard keyboards share.  The standard being 60%, TKL and Full size.  Taking your keyboard as an example, your Spacebar might be standard, but your right Shift isn't.  As long as there's a single non-standard key on the keyboard, the keyboard does not use standard keycap set anymore.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 12:51:34 »
Taking your keyboard as an example, your Spacebar might be standard, but your right Shift isn't.  As long as there's a single non-standard key on the keyboard, the keyboard does not use standard keycap set anymore.
Of all the caps to pick you went with that one?  It's practically standard as it's used on most 60% boards with an FN next to it so you will never see a keycap GB without it.  Number row Delete, Page Down and End and the 1u + are non-standard but used on Cherry 1800 boards so you can get the caps in some GBs, just like your 3 extra keys are surely available for 75% boards.  The really weird keys I don't have accurately labelled are the numberpad = (for some reason even if it's included for 1800 boards it's put where - should be, so I have a second - there) and Backspace on Caps Lock which comes from the Colemak layout which is again not standard but caps do exist.  It's good fun when someone tries to use my board as there is no Backspace ;D

A new sized spacebar is going to be a hard sell though - it would be cheaper and easier to use a 1u Win key (in every GB for 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom rows) and a 6u spacebar, 6u stabilisers aren't common but they do exist.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 21:09:10 »
Function.  The spaces around the function keys are needed to make them easier to locate.  That's why they are 12 and not 14.  Some IBM keyboards had 24 function keys.

Thank you for sharing the awesome keyboard layout editor site.
There is spacing between the keys, it's about half the normal spacing, but if all you need is a visual cue, it should be fine. Especially if you have contrasting colors.

While the KLE is great, beware that rabbit hole. You can get a plate made relatively cheap, but beyond that things start ramping up in costs really fast, if you can find something close to what you want, you may want to grab it. Worst case you can resell it and recoup most of your loss.


You want no compromise that's great but by time you get an aluminum case and plate you're going to be into this $800, without a PCB, switches and caps. Is that 1/4 spacing worth $700 and tens or even hundreds of hours of labor to you? Also, this is not a one week project, this will take months (expect a year before it's in your hands) unless you don't mind throwing even more money at the problem.  It's always far cheaper to buy something off the shelf as it's not cheap to make a one-off.
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60/70% and 80/90% keyboards
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 22:45:48 »
To be honest I don't expect to change my two keyboards (Leopold FC750R https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103985.0) anytime soon as I'm very happy with them.  The main reason for my post was my annoyance with all recent compact keyboards that have been released with a smaller factor than TKL.  I see a potential that all of them miss.  A smaller keyboard can serve some purpose, but together with the layout that I like to see it also has to be done well, and that also seems to be another elusive rabbit.  If I see one come up with thick Cherry double shot PBT keycaps with quality on par with the Leopold in two tone white or black with white legends I will surely buy two more keyboards.  But that's a lot of ifs.  Even better, if some keyboard hero manufacturer decides to save us all and mass market my 70% design or a regular TKL with Model F buckling spring with lighter weight with some of the features that I outlined in the link I just posted, I'd also buy two more.  However, such things likely won't ever happen in our universe.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 23:25:29 by ikonomov »

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 22:59:50 »
OP: your layout is inferior to the TKL layout in that it makes very hard to press Shift+Ctrl+Left arrow with one hand.
This is the main drawback of a 60% - you cannot do this combo one handed.  On the layout proposed here (which is almost the same as my board in this area) I use index finger on Ctrl, middle on shift and have two fingers left for arrows.  You could also use thumb on Ctrl, index finger on Shift or index on Ctrl+Shift and have three fingers for arrows - which works for you would depend on your hand shape and size but I think one would work for most people :)

Both methods work for your board but will not work for OP's layout. That's because either of the two methods requires at least 1u area of the Shift key, counting from the left edge of the Left arrow key towards left. On your board the arrow cluster is shifted to the right by 0.5u, so the area is 1.25u. On OP's layout it is only 0.75u.

The only method that works for OP's layout is to press the Left arrow by thumb (and to use index + middle finger for Ctrl+Shift respectively). That's why I didn't say Ctrl+Shift+Left impossible. I said it's hard.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 June 2020, 23:11:13 by dusan »
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional 60% (TKL Right Handed), 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 11:47:13 »
The only method that works for OP's layout is to press the Left arrow by thumb (and to use index + middle finger for Ctrl+Shift respectively). That's why I didn't say Ctrl+Shift+Left impossible. I said it's hard.
I just uploaded a third layout, it is an idea that I've also been curious to see come to fruition, and yet it has not come.  I think this would solve all our problems outright.  It is a TKL version specifically made for right handed people, left handers are already living in their TKL dream world.
Edit: and a full size RH version
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 June 2020, 12:36:46 by ikonomov »

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional Right Handed, 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 16:25:27 »
I'm left-handed, but I write/cut by right hand. I can use the mouse with left hand, but my left hand is not fast and accurate enough for gaming.

When I write in Word, a normal TKL is ideal for me. When I draw in Visio (with a mouse under left hand), I need a full-size board. When I input data to Excel, I wish I have number pad under right hand and nav + Insert Delete under left hand (your 4th version). When I play, I put the mouse under right hand so I wish I have a reverse TKL (your 3rd version).

Problem is, I switch between Word/Visio/Excel/game regularly.
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional Right Handed, 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 22:31:06 »
I think a lot of people would benefit from having keyboard layouts that are actually designed to maximize our productivity when we use them.  Out of your four different uses you said you can use two of these designs that don't exist yet.  I hope somebody takes notice.  It's interesting to think that the last time a company spent the proper resources needed for research and development of a keyboard layout was probably IBM in the early 80s, just before mice really became standard.  As great as the layout is on a Model M I think it's almost a guarantee that if it was delayed by just a few years we would have gotten a layout slightly different.  Slightly here is worth emphasizing, because Model M didn't just spring out of nowhere, it is part of an evolution.  So whatever the final design, had the mouse entered the equation, it would have been something very similar I think, yet almost certainly different.  I really love the Model M ANSI layout, on a TKL it's pretty much ideal for me, but yes, there is room for improvement of the ergonomics and functionality.

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Functional Right Handed, 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 22:54:13 »
I think IKBC have made a RH TKL board before, or at least they made a render of that. (I forgot the code name)


I have my own RH TKL:

244662-0
(if you want 3 keys on the left instead of 4, it's possible)

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional Right Handed, 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 23:56:58 »
I think IKBC have made a RH TKL board before, or at least they made a render of that. (I forgot the code name)
I have my own RH TKL:

YES!  I actually used two iKBC TKL keyboards for a little over an year and I thought they were great at the time.    (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79462.0)  I was also able to get in touch with them to ask for a small firmware update, and they actually did it within a few days.  I was really impressed.  I wonder why they didn't go forward with production, I think it is the kind of product that is impossible not to sell.

Your keyboard looks fantastic!  It's great to know there are lots of us with the same ideas.  I'm restraining myself from going all in custom build mostly because of soldering and un-soldering a few TKL keyboards.  After around the 50th switch it wasn't fun anymore.  I think it would be really awesome if a major company that makes quality keyboards like Leopold takes the plunge.  I will be really happy if I can use TKL RH, but what will make me even happier is if 100 or 100,000 of us can.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 June 2020, 23:59:16 by ikonomov »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 05:04:25 »
Both methods [of one hand Ctrl+Shift+left] work for your board but will not work for OP's layout. That's because either of the two methods requires at least 1u area of the Shift key, counting from the left edge of the Left arrow key towards left. On your board the arrow cluster is shifted to the right by 0.5u, so the area is 1.25u. On OP's layout it is only 0.75u.

The only method that works for OP's layout is to press the Left arrow by thumb (and to use index + middle finger for Ctrl+Shift respectively). That's why I didn't say Ctrl+Shift+Left impossible. I said it's hard.
I can press X with my index finger, D with my middle and C with my third finger and that's only a 0.5u overlap with no spacing.  I can just press X and D with my index figer too, an extra 0.25u would make it easy.  Maybe my fingers are specially bendy?  My hands are average adult male size and my fingers aren't thin...
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Offline jamster

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Re: Functional Right Handed, 70% and 90% keyboards
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 06:41:50 »
If you're going to go left handed boards, surely full size is the way to go? These boards exist already, both commercially and as group buys.

(Perhaps I've missed something though)

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional 60/75% keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 09:25:37 »
Both methods [of one hand Ctrl+Shift+left] work for your board but will not work for OP's layout. That's because either of the two methods requires at least 1u area of the Shift key, counting from the left edge of the Left arrow key towards left. On your board the arrow cluster is shifted to the right by 0.5u, so the area is 1.25u. On OP's layout it is only 0.75u.

The only method that works for OP's layout is to press the Left arrow by thumb (and to use index + middle finger for Ctrl+Shift respectively). That's why I didn't say Ctrl+Shift+Left impossible. I said it's hard.
I can press X with my index finger, D with my middle and C with my third finger and that's only a 0.5u overlap with no spacing.  I can just press X and D with my index figer too, an extra 0.25u would make it easy.  Maybe my fingers are specially bendy?  My hands are average adult male size and my fingers aren't thin...

You're right, and I'm wrong. I tried to press X D C the way you describe and it works.  :p
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70%, TKL, 90% and Full Size keyboards
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 12:19:03 »
I've just added a fully functional number pad to the proposed layouts.  Might as well get it all out regardless of what good it'll do.

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70%, TKL, 90% and Full Size keyboards
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 13:38:16 »
I've just added a fully functional number pad to the proposed layouts.  Might as well get it all out regardless of what good it'll do.

I think that it should mirror the right-hand numpad. 0, 1, 4, 7 are more frequent than 2, 5, 8, which are in turn more frequent than 3, 6, 9. And this is not the only reason.
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70%, TKL, 90% and Full Size keyboards
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:21:29 »
I think that it should mirror the right-hand numpad.

I completely agree with you.  It would be great to have both options.  I've just uploaded an image with a LH number pad.

Edit: I've removed the two full sized keyboards with the numpads, having them separate now is simply a better idea since we'll have the freedom to not only place it to an optimal position, but also be able to use it with either hand.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:05:47 by ikonomov »

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 09:30:20 »
The 1 - 9 keys are still not swapped. You forgot or it is your intention?

I attach some of the layers of my keyboard for illustration. One alpha layer for me and 2 numeric layers for all users. I type space bar by left thumb, but there are users who use right thumb or both thumbs. I use both numeric layers although I don't use all keys there.

Code: [Select]
Alpha layer
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| ` | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 0 | - |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Tab| Q | W | E | R | T |F4 |F3 |F10|F9 | Y | U | I | O | P | [ |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| = | A | S | D | F | G |Cap|F2 |F11|Num| H | J | K | L | ; | ' |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| ] | Z | X | C | V | B |Esc|F1 |F12|Ent| N | M | , | . | / | \ |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Pst|Cpy|Ins|BS |Sh |   |Win|       |Win|   |Sh |Rgt|Up |Hom|PUp|
+---+---+---+---+---+SP +---+       +---+BS +---+---+---+---+---+
|Red|Cut|Del|Und|Ctl|   |Alt|       |Alt|   |Ctl|Lft|Dn |End|PDn|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

Primary numeric layer
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Ins|BS |SP | * | / |Esc|F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |Esc| / | * |SP |Hom|PUp|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Del|Und| - | 9 | 8 | 7 |F4 |F3 |F10|F9 | 7 | 8 | 9 | - |End|PDn|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Cut|Red| + | 6 | 5 | 4 |Tab|F2 |F11|Tab| 4 | 5 | 6 | + |Rgt|Up |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Cpy|Pst| . | 3 | 2 | 1 |Ent|F1 |F12|Ent| 1 | 2 | 3 | . |Lft|Dn |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|PUp|Hom|Up |Lft|Sh |   |Win|       |Win|   |Sh |BS |Ins|Cpy|Pst|
+---+---+---+---+---+ 0 +---+       +---+ 0 +---+---+---+---+---+
|PDn|End|Dn |Rgt|Ctl|   |Alt|       |Alt|   |Ctl|Und|Del|Cut|Red|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

Secondary numeric layer
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|PUp|Hom|SP | * | / |Esc|F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |Esc| / | * |SP |BS |Ins|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|PDn|End| - | 9 | 8 | 7 |F4 |F3 |F10|F9 | 7 | 8 | 9 | - |Und|Del|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Up |Lft| + | 6 | 5 | 4 |Tab|F2 |F11|Tab| 4 | 5 | 6 | + |Red|Cut|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Dn |Rgt| . | 3 | 2 | 1 |Ent|F1 |F12|Ent| 1 | 2 | 3 | . |Pst|Cpy|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|Pst|Cpy|Ins|BS |Sh |   |Win|       |Win|   |Sh |Rgt|Up |Hom|PUp|
+---+---+---+---+---+ 0 +---+       +---+ 0 +---+---+---+---+---+
|Red|Cut|Del|Und|Ctl|   |Alt|       |Alt|   |Ctl|Lft|Dn |End|PDn|
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 11:49:43 »
I actually wasn't sure what you meant exactly, but I did consider that you were referring to mirroring the numbers and also I found a keyboard that they call "Left Handed" (https://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/dsi_left_usb.html) which is more like a right handed, with the numbers mirrored the way you suggest.  I think it can work either way, but since the number row and the f-row on the keyboard are increasing from left to right I thought it would be logical to follow the same principle for the layout of the numpad.

I think that it should mirror the right-hand numpad. 0, 1, 4, 7 are more frequent than 2, 5, 8, which are in turn more frequent than 3, 6, 9. And this is not the only reason.

I'm not sure I follow your logic for the frequency of use for different numbers.  Maybe a case can be made for 0 when entering values smaller than 1 and 10 for power of ten.  0 is already at the optimal placement, but we can consider 1.  2, 5 and 8 are in the same position either way.  I found this article (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/most-popular-numbers-grapes-of-math/), which agrees with you, but looking at the numbers the only significant difference in frequency of use for the relevant numbers is between 1 and 3, which is about 45%.  So the main argument for having the numbers mirrored would be that it is easier to press 1 with the index finger rather than with the ring finger.  The counter argument is that having the numbers increase from right to left will create inconsistency with the layout of the number keys and function keys on the keyboard.

You also mentioned that this is not the only reason.  What else do you have in mind?
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 11:51:55 by ikonomov »

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 12:21:22 »
the main argument for having the numbers mirrored would be that it is easier to press 1 with the index finger rather than with the ring finger.
This. Actually it is the argument for every number pad, RH or LH.
  The counter argument is that having the numbers increase from right to left will create inconsistency with the layout of the number keys and function keys on the keyboard.
I don't see relevance here. QWERTY and ABCDEF layout are inconsistent each with other. Each has its own logic and use case. But a keyboard that integrates both would be normal and perfectly usable.
You also mentioned that this is not the only reason.  What else do you have in mind?

Suppose you already got used to the mouse under the right hand. If one day you decide to put the mouse under your left hand, you'll find it easier if you swap the 2 buttons of the mouse. When I learn to touch type on a new layout, fairly frequently I find myself mistyping with the wrong hand, but with the correct finger in the correct motion!

Mirroring the number pad follows the same logic. Left hand's muscles inherit memory from the right hand and, more importantly, vice versa.

Edit: more than half of my colleagues type on the (normal) number pad on the (normal) full-size keyboard with their left hand. The mirrored layout is not for them.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 12:54:55 by dusan »
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 13:18:54 »
I don't see relevance here. QWERTY and ABCDEF layout are inconsistent each with other. Each has its own logic and use case. But a keyboard that integrates both would be normal and perfectly usable.

That's precisely my problem.  I don't think a keyboard that integrates both would be easy to learn and use.

Your comparison with the mouse is also not a very good one because the frequency of use between the left and right buttons is nowhere near the difference in use between 1, 4, 7 and 3, 6 and 9.  I agree that for a mouse it makes sense to have the button that is used the vast majority of the time under the more comfortable index finger.  Also if you are adopting the use of a mouse from right to left hand, I agree with you that mirroring the buttons would be easier to get used to.  However, in case of the numbers on the numpad, this would also make them go in the opposite direction to two whole rows with numbered keys on the keyboard.  So I don't really think that even for adopters mirroring the numbers on the numpad is really going to make things more intuitive and easier, some getting used to will take place either way.  I think the only valid argument is those 45%, and I'm not really convinced that it's really enough to make mirroring the numbers the obvious choice.

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 13:48:47 »
You miss my point. Frequency and ergonomics is the first reason, not the second one. The second reason is muscle memory. You always find the mouse with swapped buttons under your second hand easier and more intuitive no matter how good or bad your usual mouse is organized, so long as you get used to your usual mouse under your first hand.

Think of the QWERTY layout. Its ergonomics is questionable, but few people are willing to switch to an other layout.

By translating without mirroring the right-hand numeric pad, at least 6 keys are put under new fingers. Thus the translated layout is not the same as the original. It is a completely new layout. And it should be avoided.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 13:50:54 by dusan »
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 14:44:47 »
You miss my point. Frequency and ergonomics is the first reason, not the second one.

I understood this as your primary reason.  The two keys under question, 1 and 3, have 45% difference in frequency of use, therefore having the index finger pressing the more used key would be more ergonomic.  What's important to point out though is that this was a survey that was conducted asking people for their "favorite numbers".  So while there may be some evidence that 1 is more frequent than 3, if the survey took a broader sample of different uses, I think the difference will be much smaller, likely statistically insignificant.

By translating without mirroring the right-hand numeric pad, at least 6 keys are put under new fingers. Thus the translated layout is not the same as the original. It is a completely new layout. And it should be avoided.

Either way, it is a new layout.  Mirroring the whole QWERTY layout is not closer to the original than mirroring all the letters, but keeping the numbers intact for example.  Mirroring the numpad is fundamentally changing the logic of the entire layout of the keyboard because they have to be considered as a whole.  So yes, it is completely different, and yes, there is a good reason to avoid it.  But that's the topic of my initial post.  What purpose can changing the original ANSI layout serve, and how the changes might look like.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 17:16:37 by ikonomov »

Offline dusan

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 20:30:24 »
By the way, the frequency distribution I had in mind, which favors small digits and which has been found statistically significant for up to 3 leading digits of numbers, is known as Newcomb's or Benford's law.
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 23:10:49 »
By the way, the frequency distribution I had in mind, which favors small digits and which has been found statistically significant for up to 3 leading digits of numbers, is known as Newcomb's or Benford's law.

I did attempt to find exactly where you were coming from with a few searches, but it is obvious that I didn't find the right thing!  Yes, you are absolutely right, it is without question statistically significant.  Judging by the few graphs that I'm looking at on wikipedia, it is mostly about 1 and 3, just like in the article that I found, but even a bigger difference between the two.  It looks like 1 is about three times more common than 3 in all kinds of distributions.  I think you are right that the numbers should be mirrored, the index finger is really that much easier to use than the other 2 fingers.  Thanks for being patient and providing the right facts to really contribute.  Sorry I insisted longer than I should have, but my only excuse is that perhaps you should have started with giving Newcomb's-Benford's law right at the start of your argument.

Edit: I've made the change.  And I've also learned something new.  Thanks again!
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2020, 23:38:15 by ikonomov »

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 23:32:23 »
The arrangement of the top 4 keys on either numpad are simply trying to follow their approximate locations around the keyboard, except Alt which needs to be on the side closer to the other hand since using it to enter numpad codes would require the use of both hands.  This is obviously not ideal, but it is the only way to have a 100% fully functioning numpad.  I don't really think it would be a common use for most people, so hopefully it should be fine to use for that purpose occasionally if needed.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional layouts for numpad, 70% and TKL keyboards
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 28 September 2020, 11:14:57 »
A new sized spacebar is going to be a hard sell though - it would be cheaper and easier to use a 1u Win key (in every GB for 1.5-1-1.5-7-1.5-1-1.5 bottom rows) and a 6u spacebar, 6u stabilisers aren't common but they do exist.

After revisiting this thread in a few months I've decided to make some changes to my proposed layouts.  Most importantly I've replaced the dedicated Win key with the Fn key.  Having the Win key accessible via the Fn layer I think could be a benefit since now there is no need to have additional Win key lock for people that need it.  Since Fn+Alt would be very easy to press there is essentially no loss in functionality.  This allows the use of a 6u spacebar which is already included in many keycaps sets with extra keys like EnjoyPBT 9009 and others.  I've also removed the LH TKL version as there is essentially no significant mouse space saving benefit.  A 70% would allow a more ergonomic use of a left hand number pad.  I've also changed back the number pad with the original proposed layout not having the numbers mirrored.  There are three reasons for this.  Although dusan is correct in the frequency of numbers used, the same idea is true for the frequency of letters used in different languages.  So although useful I don't think it should dictate the logical layout of a keyboard.  The second reason is that mirroring the number pad would make the arrows on 4 and 6 reversed, requiring keycap sets with custom legends.  The third reason is that there is no need to introduce additional confusion by having the numbers increase from right to left.

Edit: I just added an Fn key to the numpad.  If it's programable with QMK for example some extra functionality can come in handy.

Edit2: I've added back the dedicated Win key, but made it 1u.  It can serve as a Win Lock on the Fn layer to be able to easily disable it.  This still allows the use of 6u spacebar, having 1.25u/1u/1.25u modifier keys on both sides of it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 28 September 2020, 21:01:19 by ikonomov »

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layouts for 70%, 90% and left hand numpad
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 30 September 2020, 18:38:39 »
I've just added a 90% version for our viewing pleasure.  We might never get these layouts, but at least here we can have our moments in keyboard heaven.   :D
« Last Edit: Wed, 30 September 2020, 18:49:05 by ikonomov »

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layouts for 70%, 90% and left hand numpad
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 08 October 2020, 13:33:50 »
Ha, it looks like there already exists a keyboard with a similar layout as my proposed 90%.

https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/black-left-handed-keypad-keyboard.asp


Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layouts for 70%, 90% and left hand numpad
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 19 October 2020, 12:44:36 »
I've removed the extra Alt button from the numpad as I realized that if the keyboard is fully programmable the number row keys can be mapped to function as the numpad number keys on the Fn layer to allow entering Alt codes.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layouts for 70%, 90% and left hand numpad
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 20:50:40 »
I've added a left handed version.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 18 July 2021, 12:02:30 »
I've made a few minor modifications.  There is no keyboard yet with this layout, so having it on a digital only format affords the freedom to have another look.

Offline Volny

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 90%, 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 09:31:07 »
I'm all about function before form. I'm also of the opinion that if removing a numpad gives you more mouse room, then you were doing it wrong in the first place.

Over the years I've slowly shifted away from the usual scrunched up position that most people type in, where the keyboard is right under the chest and the wrists have to tense upwards to meet it, and into a position where my keyboard is over a forearm's length away from my torso. At this distance, the elbow is at a gentle obtuse angle, the wrist is inevitably loose and relaxed, the body is facing forward and not twisting, and any considerations of keyboard angle, positioning etc. feel moot. Fatigue or RSI simply no longer factor for me.

My mouse then sits a little closer to me than the keyboard. More 'South-southeast' than 'East'. This allows me to utilise a full size keyboard without issue (I use the numpad for function keys, and the f-row for useful shortcuts). This mouse position is almost a mirror position to my left hand, which naturally hovers around the lower left corner of the keyboard where it can reach modifiers, tab, spacebar, esc while I mouse. So even when mousing I'm nice and symmetrical, and rest both elbows on padded wrist wrests for comfort.

Keys which I frequently need to press but aren't near the left hand, I simply map to the buttons on my 15-button mouse (a Roccat Leadr, itself a gorgeously ergonomic design): enter, del, home, end, f11, and shortcuts I use a lot like ctrl-[ and ctrl-]. Of all the productivity hacks I've adapted over the years, this last one most makes me feel like I'm in a twilight zone where everyone is so busy rubbing two sticks together that I'm the only one who's noticed the light switch.

Offline NickAWeaver

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 90%, 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 21 July 2021, 20:15:39 »
I know ymdkey has a 96% with the numpad on the left but i'm not sure if there's a layout that will still give arrow keys. https://ymdkey.com/collections/75-84-96-keyboard-diy/products/gk96lx-left-hand-gk96-split-space-hot-swappable-programmable-wired-mechanical-keyboard-kit-support-rgb-switch-leds-type-c

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 23 July 2021, 14:40:37 »
I've made another small but I think significant modification making the right shift key 2 units long allowing the use of a stabilizer.  My previous design had the 1.75 length right shift key, same as all 75% keyboards I've seen, which I think is not ideal as the shift keys are among the most used ones.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 23 July 2021, 14:46:16 »
I know ymdkey has a 96% with the numpad on the left but i'm not sure if there's a layout that will still give arrow keys. https://ymdkey.com/collections/75-84-96-keyboard-diy/products/gk96lx-left-hand-gk96-split-space-hot-swappable-programmable-wired-mechanical-keyboard-kit-support-rgb-switch-leds-type-c


I've seen this design before, it is indeed missing the arrow cluster and also the numpad is not mirrored.  So a right hand numpad on the left side of the keyboard...

I'm all about function before form. I'm also of the opinion that if removing a numpad gives you more mouse room, then you were doing it wrong in the first place.

Over the years I've slowly shifted away from the usual scrunched up position that most people type in, where the keyboard is right under the chest and the wrists have to tense upwards to meet it, and into a position where my keyboard is over a forearm's length away from my torso. At this distance, the elbow is at a gentle obtuse angle, the wrist is inevitably loose and relaxed, the body is facing forward and not twisting, and any considerations of keyboard angle, positioning etc. feel moot. Fatigue or RSI simply no longer factor for me.

My mouse then sits a little closer to me than the keyboard. More 'South-southeast' than 'East'. This allows me to utilise a full size keyboard without issue (I use the numpad for function keys, and the f-row for useful shortcuts). This mouse position is almost a mirror position to my left hand, which naturally hovers around the lower left corner of the keyboard where it can reach modifiers, tab, spacebar, esc while I mouse. So even when mousing I'm nice and symmetrical, and rest both elbows on padded wrist wrests for comfort.

Keys which I frequently need to press but aren't near the left hand, I simply map to the buttons on my 15-button mouse (a Roccat Leadr, itself a gorgeously ergonomic design): enter, del, home, end, f11, and shortcuts I use a lot like ctrl-[ and ctrl-]. Of all the productivity hacks I've adapted over the years, this last one most makes me feel like I'm in a twilight zone where everyone is so busy rubbing two sticks together that I'm the only one who's noticed the light switch.


Yep, that's what it's all about.  Comfort.  I have also found a very comfortable position long time ago.  For me it all had to do with the height of my desk, I found that having a low desk with a single surface for both the monitor and a keyboard/mouse allows the ideal posture for me.

Offline ikonomov

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Re: Functional keyboard layout for 75% and left hand numpad
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 09 January 2023, 14:20:18 »
After a few hundred revisions I've given in to my resistance of modifying the function row with its original ANSI spacing.  I simply love the original ANSI layout that IBM have designed so well and I really thought that the spacing in between the key clusters can be preserved in its original form for a smaller than TKL layout.  I've come to the conclusion that in such a small factor in order to maximize productivity the spacing including that of the function row needs to be modified.  I believe the extra three keys provide a meaningful improvement while at the same time still allowing enough spacing in the function row to use it effectively.  The links and the image in the original post have been updated to reflect the new change.
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 January 2023, 14:30:45 by ikonomov »