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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Zobeid Zuma on Tue, 07 November 2017, 13:06:31
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Re: https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile/hako-true/ (https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile/hako-true/)
Oh happy day!
I:C promised us that the replacement for Halo switches would be something even better. I was skeptical, but it seems like they've hooked it up. BOX switches! I haven't found a BOX switch yet that I didn't like, so this ought to be good.
At first I thought Hako seemed like a weird and awkward name, but then somebody informed me that it's Japanese for box. How droll.
It seems like the big dustup between I:C and MD will become moot.
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Yea I like the fact there box switches and I think that lends well to the entire... there suppose to be something unique and special. I do think we will hear some complaining thought about how mod unfriendly box switches are. Seriously what can ya really do to a box switch. There perfection. I am typing on box blacks right now... there silky silky smooth! and zero wobble. The only thing I have found is they don't play nice with all artisan's some of them fit a bit tightly and I think its the box around the cross but thats a mute point honestly.
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$54 for 120, what a deal!! :thumb:
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54 for $120, what a deal!! :thumb:
$2.22 a switch? ;)
Probably going to get a pack of each of these. Will wait to see if any reviews/thoughts come out on them.
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54 for $120, what a deal!! :thumb:
$2.22 a switch? ;)
Probably going to get a pack of each of these. Will wait to see if any reviews/thoughts come out on them.
oops! moved the $ to the correct place, ty :p
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I'd be interested to try these out. After looking at the force curves, I think these suffer the same double bump problem as Kailh BOX Browns. Also if they have the inconsistency issues other BOX switches have, these are a no-go for me.
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$54 for 120, what a deal!! :thumb:
Hi, can you tell teh source where they're sold for that price, pls?
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$54 for 120, what a deal!! :thumb:
Hi, can you tell teh source where they're sold for that price, pls?
https://kono.store/collections/mechanical-keyswitches
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Ah, thanks. It's a good move of IC making the switches separately available from the very start.
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Those do sound pretty great
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I'd be interested to try these out. After looking at the force curves, I think these suffer the same double bump problem as Kailh BOX Browns. Also if they have the inconsistency issues other BOX switches have, these are a no-go for me.
I think I will try these out, at least the force curves are better than MX Brown
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but... 55g... can we change the springs? I have heard that regular mx springs are not compatible with these switches, is this true?
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I'd be interested to try these out. After looking at the force curves, I think these suffer the same double bump problem as Kailh BOX Browns. Also if they have the inconsistency issues other BOX switches have, these are a no-go for me.
I think I will try these out, at least the force curves are better than MX brown
but... 55g... can we change the springs? I have heard that regular mx springs are not compatible with these switches, is this true?
They are incompatible, so you would have to salvage the springs you want from another Kailh BOX switch.
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I have mixed feeling about these. I have been meaning to try out a box switch, but I'm not sure if these are the ones. On the other hand , it does really mimic a topre force curve, so that's pretty neat. I wish we could sample these before buying 120. I think I'm just going to opt for a Kailh sample pack, and call it a night.
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the box switches I've pulled apart and messed with have been hit or miss as far as consistent smoothness and lube. Almost like they cheapened out on their assembly and manufacturing when these blew up in popularity to try and keep up with demand. I'm hoping that I:C does some QC with these since i think they will be highly sought after switches. I know i'm looking to build something with them for sure.
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I'm interested in comparing them side by side with Kailh speed coppers. My biggest concern with both is the fact that Kailh doesn't dampen/silence their switches, so noise will be an issue.
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I have built a few boards with the Kailh switches, I would say that the lubed speed silvers are pretty quiet. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the bronze click-bar switch is really really loud.
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Would these sliders have the same bump as the box brown? Or would it be more pronounced.
I do not want to buy it if the slider is just the same as a box brown slider :/
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Would these sliders have the same bump as the box brown? Or would it be more pronounced.
I do not want to buy it if the slider is just the same as a box brown slider :/
I guess you could open one and compare it to https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1994/3097/products/Hako-Varieties_1024x1024.png?v=1510037732
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I highly suspect the slider and springs will be unique to the hako. Downside to box switches is they don't respond to lube as well, and they're not compatible with other housings and springs. I love making hybrids and it's not really possible with box switches. Upside of course being low wobble and smoothness up front.
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I highly suspect the slider and springs will be unique to the hako. Downside to box switches is they don't respond to lube as well, and they're not compatible with other housings and springs. I love making hybrids and it's not really possible with box switches. Upside of course being low wobble and smoothness up front.
They could always sell springs in the box switch size.
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Would these sliders have the same bump as the box brown? Or would it be more pronounced.
Interesting question... Is there a force graph available of the Box Brown?
Input Club did post force graphs of the Hako switches and one could compare them by using the Shear tool in a graphics program to even out the main spring's influence.
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I highly suspect the slider and springs will be unique to the hako. Downside to box switches is they don't respond to lube as well, and they're not compatible with other housings and springs. I love making hybrids and it's not really possible with box switches. Upside of course being low wobble and smoothness up front.
There is very little improvement to lube. I have done a few batches of them and can say that the work is not worth the gain in the end to me. These have a small speck of something that looks like vaseline grease on the green "pin" piece that actuates the contact leaf inside that sealed box. The slider itself could use a bit of lube on the "face" that the pin slides along where the bump is.. and then your normal sides of the slider where it could touch the sides of the switch top.
The work is extremely time consuming. Worth it? thats up to the user.
(https://i.imgur.com/oAmrXJ3h.jpg)
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Would these sliders have the same bump as the box brown? Or would it be more pronounced.
Interesting question... Is there a force graph available of the Box Brown?
Input Club did post force graphs of the Hako switches and one could compare them by using the Shear tool in a graphics program to even out the main spring's influence.
Yeah, they're all on haata's plotly page: https://plot.ly/~haata/152/
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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The Hako clear force curve looks quite similar to the (smoothed) force curve shown for the Novelkeys BOX heavy pale blue (a box white w heavier spring).
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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The Hako clear force curve looks quite similar to the (smoothed) force curve shown for the Novelkeys BOX heavy pale blue (a box white w heavier spring).
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Well, maybe not "quite." But, intriguingly?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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The Hako clear force curve looks quite similar to the (smoothed) force curve shown for the Novelkeys BOX heavy pale blue (a box white w heavier spring).
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Interesting indeed....
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Yeah, they're all on haata's plotly page: https://plot.ly/~haata/152/
Thanks! I don't find much resemblance between the Kailh Box Brown and Hako Clear or True...
However, I found something else. Apparently Hako Clear and Hako True have the same slider shape! Here, the graph for Hako True has been superimposed and sheared into the graph of Hako Clear:
[attachimg=1]
The Halo True and Halo Clear also have the same slider shape.
The Hako clear force curve looks quite similar to the (smoothed) force curve shown for the Novelkeys BOX heavy pale blue (a box white w heavier spring).
That's weird. That's a clicky switch, isn't it? I can't find a graph of it on HaaTa's repo.
The graph on Novelkeys' site is too smooth - look like what they were trying to achieve, not an actual measured force graph.
In HaaTa's graphs the tactile box switches always have several steps -- which are not even visible on NovelKeys'/Kaihua's graphs.
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Hako switches, invented by Input Club are just the beginning. Halo switches also invented by Input Club were a run up predecessor testing practical switch applications and market interest. I've been deeply involved with Haata since 2009 (over 8 years!), and I can say with confidence there is not a testing and engineering lab ON THE PLANET that has chosen to focus and has the specialized equipment capacity for the absolute breakdown of data points that Input Club is committed to researching, cross-referencing, and providing to the community. And that folks, is the heart of it.
Think of the X-plane program, except really, really, really, really, really small.
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so is hako better than halo
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Just want a consensus here from this thread. Who is getting the Clears and who is going for the True?
Personally I think I'm going for the Clear.
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Just want a consensus here from this thread. Who is getting the Clears and who is going for the True?
Personally I think I'm going for the Clear.
If funds allow a purchase by the 28th (so many good GBs end at the end of Nov), I'll be looking at the Trues. I seem to bottom out every switch I try (I haven't used any Zealio yet though), so I think the stronger bottom spring will help me out.
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Just want a consensus here from this thread. Who is getting the Clears and who is going for the True?
Personally I think I'm going for the Clear.
If funds allow a purchase by the 28th (so many good GBs end at the end of Nov), I'll be looking at the Trues. I seem to bottom out every switch I try (I haven't used any Zealio yet though), so I think the stronger bottom spring will help me out.
I will go with Clear but modifiers will be light-er switches.
I once used a board with 78g linear, the alphas are ok but holding the modifiers is... tiring...
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Just want a consensus here from this thread. Who is getting the Clears and who is going for the True?
Personally I think I'm going for the Clear.
Honestly, I've never understood the difference. They're both medium weight tactile switches, right?
I mean, the I:C website says the Clear switches "...approximate a mixture between a Cherry MX Clear and a Topre switch." But I've never used a Cherry MX Clear, and I've never used a Topre switch, so that means nothing to me.
Also: "The spring selected for the Hako Clear is longer and less dense than the Hako True, providing the familiar feedback of the Clear switch with long sloping curves present in Topre keyboards. "
Again, I've never tested any of the switches referenced in that sentence, so I can only shrug.
If I were building it myself I'd use Kailh BOX Burnt Orange switches, which I have tested and quite liked. But I am not a switch guy. I don't spend my time lubing switches and making hybrid switches and measuring force curves. So, my order is for the True switches, just because I figured TrueFox layout and True switches would make the purest WhiteFox experience.
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Which one is closest in feel and actuation force to a 45g Topre? That's how I would decide between the two.
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Honestly, I've never understood the difference. They're both medium weight tactile switches, right?
Same slider, different spring. "True" has a heavier spring. It is even heavier than MX Clear which has got a lot of dislikes for its heavy spring.
I would say that if you use Halo/Hako Clear on your board, put Halo/Hako True on the Space Bar.
The force curves make the Hako/Halo Clear and True seem less tactile than the MX Clear even, and yes less than the Kailh Orange.
The Hako pair looks scratchier in the graphs but also more bumpier than the Halo, and maybe therefore more tactile... But a graph won't tell everything: we won't really know until someone tries them.
But a Hako in the hand is worth two Halo in the bush, even if the Halo would be smoother.. right?
I just wish that I:C would also sell small packs of switches for those who would want to try them out or use a Hako True for the Space Bar.
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If the Hako is designed to have Topre-ish tactility, then it's not going to have MX Clear snappiness, which is a virtue in my book. I mean, I understand why some folks like a really sharp tactile snap, but I prefer the more subtle, pillowy feel of Topre. Alas, I fear the springs on these Hakos (either one) will be too heavy. Anything heavier than 45-50g will be uncomfortable for me.
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so is hako better than halo
the hako force curves on their website look sorta scratchy compared to the halos, which I was kind of surprised by. Not sure how much that will affect feel.
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If the Hako is designed to have Topre-ish tactility, then it's not going to have MX Clear snappiness, which is a virtue in my book. I mean, I understand why some folks like a really sharp tactile snap, but I prefer the more subtle, pillowy feel of Topre. Alas, I fear the springs on these Hakos (either one) will be too heavy. Anything heavier than 45-50g will be uncomfortable for me.
and I like the snap, that's why I don't like krytox on clears. guess I'm passing on these
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I initially thought they jut decided to swap one letter over to sound similar to "Halo" and then quickly realized what Hako meant in Japanese LOL.
I do wonder if they'll indeed feel scratchy looking at those force curves.
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I initially thought they jut decided to swap one letter over to sound similar to "Halo" and then quickly realized what Hako meant in Japanese LOL.
I do wonder if they'll indeed feel scratchy looking at those force curves.
That's some next-level meta **** right there
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Halo True was supposed to be "topre-ish".. but honestly it's not close. Other than the fact that you're already "in" the bump when you start the keypress, it's nothing alike.
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I initially thought they jut decided to swap one letter over to sound similar to "Halo" and then quickly realized what Hako meant in Japanese LOL.
I do wonder if they'll indeed feel scratchy looking at those force curves.
That's some next-level meta **** right there
I didnt even realize.
hako (Japanese)
Noun
箱, 函: box, case
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HardwareCanucks reviews a prototype of the NightFox (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoSw33BNLiQ) -- but without Hako True switches because prototype.
However, at 4:43 (https://youtu.be/WoSw33BNLiQ?t=4m43s) Eber shows loose Hako True switches, tests them and then describes them as being linear !
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I got to try them, they are neither linear nor scratchy. I really like them.
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I got to try them, they are neither linear nor scratchy. I really like them.
I've got to try these then :O
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However, at 4:43 (https://youtu.be/WoSw33BNLiQ?t=4m43s) Eber shows loose Hako True switches, tests them and then describes them as being linear !
That's not surprising, if the bump is right at the top, and so it can be easy to miss with a certain keystroke technique.
I think my Kailh Speed Copper stem in vintage MX Black housing with MX Clear spring might be quite similar to what they're talking about. That combination or a jailhouse blue with lots of linear overtravel.
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Guys, is there anyone who had their hands on Hako True/Clear switches and could share his impression (review)? I'm looking forward to reading typing experiences! (instead of mere speculations, sorry had to say that :-X ). The shakespear question is, "Are Hakos the new big thing, that excells MX clears, and even Matias Quiet Clicks, or aren't they?"
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Guys, is there anyone who had their hands on Hako True/Clear switches and could share his impression (review)? I'm looking forward to reading typing experiences! (instead of mere speculations, sorry had to say that :-X ). The shakespear question is, "Are Hakos the new big thing, that excells MX clears, and even Matias Quiet Clicks, or aren't they?"
I haven't tried them yet, but they'd have to be outstanding to even lure me away from BOX Pale Blue (clicky) and Burnt Orange (tactile) switches that I've already tested.
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Guys, is there anyone who had their hands on Hako True/Clear switches and could share his impression (review)? I'm looking forward to reading typing experiences! (instead of mere speculations, sorry had to say that :-X ). The shakespear question is, "Are Hakos the new big thing, that excells MX clears, and even Matias Quiet Clicks, or aren't they?"
I mean... isnt that what this is all about? No one has them yet... its still in the group buy stage.
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Guys, is there anyone who had their hands on Hako True/Clear switches and could share his impression (review)? I'm looking forward to reading typing experiences! (instead of mere speculations, sorry had to say that :-X ). The shakespear question is, "Are Hakos the new big thing, that excells MX clears, and even Matias Quiet Clicks, or aren't they?"
I mean... isnt that what this is all about? No one has them yet... its still in the group buy stage.
I read somewhere can't remember if it was Geekhack are Reddit. That someone got to try them at one of the meetup's. I am guessing they where most likely a test batch thought.
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I'll take every iteration i can get of BOX switches. They are amazing. Got in before the GB closed
that being said, i was not blown away by HALO switches.....