SA profile Row 4 Shift molds - Ready

[Oobly]

Good news, team!

After a number of emails back and forth between myself and Melissa and some hard work done by the Signature Plastics engineers and toolmakers, we finally have semi-matte Row 4 Shift molds available for SA profile!



Melissa is trying to schedule running both Shifts for all previous fully sculpted SA sets (PuLSE SA, Hack'd by Geeks, Retro SA, Jukebox, Carbon, etc.) and they will be made available in the PMK store when they're done.

This also means that current set designers can now include semi-matte Row 4 Shifts in their designs.

The age of complete fully sculpted SA sets has come!

Now, designers.... Show us what you got! (It's time to get SHIFTy in here)

Best Regards,
Oobly

P.S. - yes, I know I'm mixing my references, but I'm too excited to care.

[Oobly]

[Oobly]

[CPTBadAss]

Wow, this is actually pretty great news. Thanks Oobly.

[user 18]

This is great news, I'm really glad they finally got this sorted out. Will keep an eye on the PMK store so I can pick up some shifts for my sets!

[mobbo]

I LIKE WHAT YOU GOT

[azhdar]

1.75 Shifts were not concerned by this right?

[nickheller]

Great news! Thanks for the work Oobly! I am going to have to grab new shifts for SA Retro, Jukebox, and Hack'd now!

[jbondeson]

Now I can finally stop my sculpted-SA strike! 

[tofgerl]

Wait, so now that we're done whining about getting R4 shifts, we can start whining about the running the machines in 3 shifts...?

[SpAmRaY]

Will the prices be inflated to pay for the molds?

[mobbo]

Great news! Thanks for the work Oobly! I am going to have to grab new shifts for SA Retro, Jukebox, and Hack'd now!

Are the Jukebox shifts Row 4? Or is that entire row, Row 4 EXCEPT the shifts?

[nickheller]

Great news! Thanks for the work Oobly! I am going to have to grab new shifts for SA Retro, Jukebox, and Hack'd now!

Are the Jukebox shifts Row 4? Or is that entire row, Row 4 EXCEPT the shifts?

Everything in the row is row 4, other than shifts which are row 3.

[mobbo]

Everything in the row is row 4, other than shifts which are row 3.

Thanks. 

[Oobly]

Will the prices be inflated to pay for the molds?

I have no visibility yet on the pricing of these, but I would say they'll be priced very fairly (and sold as pairs most likely), otherwise they will not sell very well... AFAIK, this will not need to be paid for at all by the community (well, technically it already has been, through all the keycaps we've bought from them).

[My_Thoughts]

Excellent news and great work Oobly - Thanks

[whmeltonjr]

Woooo! Awesome news. I'll be ordering a R4 Jukebox shift as soon as they are available.

[iamtootallforthis]

This is great to hear! Thanks so much for the update Oobly!

[keshley]

Is this for the standard shift sizes, or will it accommodate some of the less frequently seen, like shift/fn split?

[ika]

A little disappointed we have to pay for them but I'm happy the option is finally available. Hopefully they won't be extravagantly priced!

[Butter]

Nice! thank you Oobly 

[swill]

Good news, team!

After a number of emails back and forth between myself and Melissa and some hard work done by the Signature Plastics engineers and toolmakers, we finally have semi-matte Row 4 Shift molds available for SA profile!

(Attachment Link)

Melissa is trying to schedule running both Shifts for all previous fully sculpted SA sets (PuLSE SA, Hack'd by Geeks, Retro SA, Jukebox, Carbon, etc.) and they will be made available in the PMK store when they're done.

This also means that current set designers can now include semi-matte Row 4 Shifts in their designs.

The age of complete fully sculpted SA sets has come!

Now, designers.... Show us what you got! (It's time to get SHIFTy in here)

Best Regards,
Oobly

P.S. - yes, I know I'm mixing my references, but I'm too excited to care.

Is this only for 2.25 and 2.75 Shift keys or are the 1.75 and 1.25 Shift keys also available with this mold?

[Phirr]

Row 4 1.25 and 1.75 caps already exist in SA profile.

[swill]

Row 4 1.25 and 1.75 caps already exist in SA profile.

OK Thx...

[Oobly]

Good news, team!

After a number of emails back and forth between myself and Melissa and some hard work done by the Signature Plastics engineers and toolmakers, we finally have semi-matte Row 4 Shift molds available for SA profile!

(Attachment Link)

Melissa is trying to schedule running both Shifts for all previous fully sculpted SA sets (PuLSE SA, Hack'd by Geeks, Retro SA, Jukebox, Carbon, etc.) and they will be made available in the PMK store when they're done.

This also means that current set designers can now include semi-matte Row 4 Shifts in their designs.

The age of complete fully sculpted SA sets has come!

Now, designers.... Show us what you got! (It's time to get SHIFTy in here)

Best Regards,
Oobly

P.S. - yes, I know I'm mixing my references, but I'm too excited to care.

Is this only for 2.25 and 2.75 Shift keys or are the 1.75 and 1.25 Shift keys also available with this mold?

Is this for the standard shift sizes, or will it accommodate some of the less frequently seen, like shift/fn split?

1.25u and 1.75u semi-matte Row 4 caps have been available already for a long time (since Penumbra or before), so now they're all available. Most of the previously run "full contour" SA GB's with those size caps have had them made in Row 4 already, such as Retro SA. For those that had them in Row 3 I suggest the designers get in touch with Melissa to request those sizes be made also so they can be together in kits per set design.

I know I'm going to be buying a lot of these caps since I own... ALL the full contour SA sets except R5 Honeywell I think. They may only get made next year sometime, though, since the SA tooling is in full production until then with all the latest sets that have run on Massdrop.

[MaNiFeX]

Time for some SA Dolch!!!

[kebby]

Amazing news! Hopefully R5 can be augmented to have these from a later GB or something. Of course for some of the colors there will be sets that complement them eventually anyway.

[zslane]

This is terrific news. Now we just gotta convince SP to use the corrected SHIFT legends...

[Bloo]

Very happy.

[temporal]

Ah, just what my SA Retro needs to be complete

Awesome work on the community's part pushing this and SP for the follow through 

[T0mb3ry]

Well got already response from Melissa. Carbon will get row 3 shifts first. Later they will be purchacable either on MassDrop or PMK. Asked also for some Carbon pictures. Hope i got some tommorow.

But its not that important right now... Because we got the long awaited row 4 shift bros! JOY!!!! FINALLY!!!

[pyrolovesmoney]

is there a sticky that details the SA profile or what it does/is used for?

[Supergeek]

Well got already response from Melissa. Carbon will get row 3 shifts first. Later they will be purchacable either on MassDrop or PMK. Asked also for some Carbon pictures. Hope i got some tommorow.

But its not that important right now... Because we got the long awaited row 4 shift bros! JOY!!!! FINALLY!!!

That is awesome to hear! It was the first thing I was wondering as soon as I saw the news.

[mobbo]

is there a sticky that details the SA profile or what it does/is used for?

I'm not sure but a quick Google search yields some decent information (;

It doesn't really "do" anything. It's just a different keycap profile preference which is taller than what you are most likely used to.

See here for a breakdown of different profiles + detailed PDFs: http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php

Near the bottom of this guide is a good explanation as well: https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/

Search some pictures of SA profile keycaps vs. other profiles to get a better idea of how the difference looks on a real board.

[Hanni]

PENUMBRA round 2, its your time to shine baby !

[zslane]

As well as SA Dasher/Dancer!

[ideus]

It may be time to try out some SA goodness; however, I am still worry about the wobbling of this super tall key caps.

[Steezus]

Awesome work Oobly, glad to see this finally come to light. With r4 shifts and the new Ctrl[Alt] website being up, sounds like Penumbra r2 is right around the corner. Can't wait to try out an SA set now.

[suicidal_orange]

*Looks down at 1.25 row 3 shift on Hack'd, questions the sense in buying a replacement 2.25 that will never be used*

Still, this is awesome news for all you ANSI folk

[thelectronicnub]

i regret getting rid of my retro now.

at least i've got 1976 now.

[choiboi]

Sounds like it's shifty time today~

[jbondeson]

*Looks down at 1.25 row 3 shift on Hack'd, questions the sense in buying a replacement 2.25 that will never be used*

Still, this is awesome news for all you ANSI folk

The other thing going on in the SA Shift arena is that DT has gotten the "SHIF T" legend fixed to "SHIFT" It would be cool if they could do a whole shift pack with all 4 sizes: 1.25, 1.75, 2.25, and 2.75 so you could get maximum Shiftibility!

[zslane]

It remains to be seen whether or not SP is comfortable with using my corrected SHIFT legend vectors. Melissa was convinced it wouldn't work until I forced the issue and paid to have it tried on some samples of 2.75u DSA in Dolch GX gray. According to her it worked, and I should have the shift keys to prove it in my hands tomorrow, but who knows how they feel about using it for "official" PMK products. I am doing what I can to persuade her, so we'll see...

In any event, we know they'll offer 2.25u and 2.75u as a paired set. I see no reason why they couldn't offer 1.25u and 1.75u with the fixed legends as a separate set since the new PMK system doesn't put anything into production until enough pre-orders interest check votes surpass their threshold anyway.

[jbondeson]

Well then we just need to "persuade" them.

And by persuade I mean beg them in the name of kerning and good taste.

[switchnollie]

[Oobly]

It remains to be seen whether or not SP is comfortable with using my corrected SHIFT legend vectors. Melissa was convinced it wouldn't work until I forced the issue and paid to have it tried on some samples of 2.75u DSA in Dolch GX gray. According to her it worked, and I should have the shift keys to prove it in my hands tomorrow, but who knows how they feel about using it for "official" PMK products. I am doing what I can to persuade her, so we'll see...

In any event, we know they'll offer 2.25u and 2.75u as a paired set. I see no reason why they couldn't offer 1.25u and 1.75u with the fixed legends as a separate set since the new PMK system doesn't put anything into production until enough pre-orders interest check votes surpass their threshold anyway.

That legend is only for 2.75 DSA. If you want the same legend cut for all the SA caps it will need to be paid for by us somehow, they already have "working" Gorton Modified Shift legends, so I don't see them doing this for free. Anyway, let's actually wait to see the results of your legend "fix". From what I can tell of the discussion at DT you haven't even received the sample cap yet.

If it really is acceptable to the general community (and considerably better than the "stock" Shift legend) and SP is willing to do it, then maybe we can get them to provide 4-packs of Shift caps. That way there don't have to be different size packs for different sets and it's justified by the legends being improved. That way even suicidal_orange will get Row 4 Shifts for his ISO board

I'm willing to take on the task once we have some kind of concensus from the community on this.

[zslane]

4-packs sound great except that most of us will only ever need half of the keycaps in them. I'd want to pair up with someone who needs 1.25u and 1.75u but not 2.25u and 2.75u so that both of us gets only what we need and aren't stuck with keycaps we don't.

As for the Dolch 2.75u experiment, you're right I don't have them yet. For all we know Melissa's definition of "worked" is different from ours and we'll all be disappointed (none more than me who paid handomely for the experiment). But I remain hopeful. We'll know soon.

[Oobly]

4-packs sound great except that most of us will only ever need half of the keycaps in them. I'd want to pair up with someone who needs 1.25u and 1.75u but not 2.25u and 2.75u so that both of us gets only what we need and aren't stuck with keycaps we don't.

As for the Dolch 2.75u experiment, you're right I don't have them yet. For all we know Melissa's definition of "worked" is different from ours and we'll all be disappointed (none more than me who paid handomely for the experiment). But I remain hopeful. We'll know soon.

Yes, I agree with you. They should sell ANSI as a pair (since almost all sets have an ANSI base kit even for those who have ISO kits and for resaile purposes it's best to have a full ANSI base), with the others being available as single caps. They have the original GB numbers so they could make matching numbers for these (actually probably good to make a few LESS than the totals due to some people not knowing about them which is inevitable unless emails go out to every buyer, and even then some will not bother to purchase them).

And just to clarify, these will not go through the PMK group buy system. They will not need an IC voting phase. They'll get made and then become available in the PMK store directly.

One thing I feel should be mentioned here. It seems SP is actually starting to pay proper attention to the community (when we can demonstrate concensus on a subject), even though they are not very active in the forums. If there is a real issue we want to address with them, it's best to have a discussion between stakeholders in that issue, reach some kind of concensus and then have a single contact person present it to SP. That's how we managed to get this done. I see a lot of complaining about various SP related issues and some people may even have sent an email to them about the issue, but SP has no visibilty of the community concensus. It's no good expecting them to know general feelings of the community through all the different threads we read here. It simply comes across as individuals whining, which it sometimes is. So if we want to get things done, we need to present a united front.

As a PMK/ SP sceptic with a bit of an "us vs them" attitude I can say that things do seem to be changing.. I'll post more about this in their subforum. I actually have hope now that the new PMK system could work, eventually.

[Latin00032]

Is pmk going to makes these caps for done of the older sets?

I have some sa sets from a couple years ago.

[zslane]

I think that is their goal, yes. To offer R4 Shift keys in color combinations matching popular sets from the past, but I don't know any of the particulars there.

As for corrected legends, this was Melissa's reply this morning when I suggested that SP use my vector definitions for all new Shift keys going forward:

We are revising all of our SHIFT legends so that the T is closer to the F, so moving forward, anything that we are currently running or plan to run will have the adjusted SHIFT legend.

Make of that what you will.

[blastoid]

Despite the fact that "SHIF T" doesn't bother me that much, I'd be willing to subsidize the cost by buying smaller shifts I would never use.

Also, I saw that Carbon would be shipped with R3. Any word on Danger Zone?

Edit: Ignore me, Danger Zone is all-R3

[zslane]

7bit's Round 5a may end up being the first community GB to deliver R4 Shift keys. Fingers crossed.

[tofgerl]

Is carbon not counted as community-run?

[zslane]

Carbon isn't delivering R4 Shift keys, at least not to my knowledge. Those molds weren't available when Carbon when into production.

[tofgerl]

Actually they will be the first ones made. Or so someone said.

[Oobly]

Actually they will be the first ones made. Or so someone said.

...Carbon will get row 3 shifts first. Later they (the row 4 shifts) will be purchacable either on MassDrop or PMK....

Emphasis and bracket part added by me.

[zslane]

Ah, well chances are good then that SP will put R4 Shift keys for popular SA sets (not just Carbon) up on the PMK webstore before Round 5a goes into production. The race is on!

[swill]

Row 4 1.25 and 1.75 caps already exist in SA profile.

What 1.75u SA keycap is in row 4 already?  Isn't the only 1.75u key on the board the caps lock?  That key is in row 3 in all sets.  Are we sure that there are 1.75u row 4 shifts already?

[jbondeson]

Row 4 1.25 and 1.75 caps already exist in SA profile.

What 1.75u SA keycap is in row 4 already?  Isn't the only 1.75u key on the board the caps lock?  That key is in row 3 in all sets.  Are we sure that there are 1.75u row 4 shifts already?

1.75 row 4 shift exists, but most designers choose to not use them otherwise you could have a 2.25 left row3 with a 1.75 right row4 which would be funky. So everyone just does all shifts in row3

[Oobly]

Row 4 1.25 and 1.75 caps already exist in SA profile.

What 1.75u SA keycap is in row 4 already?  Isn't the only 1.75u key on the board the caps lock?  That key is in row 3 in all sets.  Are we sure that there are 1.75u row 4 shifts already?

1.75 row 4 shift exists, but most designers choose to not use them otherwise you could have a 2.25 left row3 with a 1.75 right row4 which would be funky. So everyone just does all shifts in row3

Hack'd by Geeks, Jukebox and Retro SA have R4 1.75u Shifts.

[tofgerl]

Actually they will be the first ones made. Or so someone said.

...Carbon will get row 3 shifts first. Later they (the row 4 shifts) will be purchacable either on MassDrop or PMK....

Emphasis and bracket part added by me.

Oh, I assumed they would be produced right afterwards, but I guess that was only inferred if you really wanted it to be inferred...

[KHAANNN]

I think that is their goal, yes. To offer R4 Shift keys in color combinations matching popular sets from the past, but I don't know any of the particulars there.

As for corrected legends, this was Melissa's reply this morning when I suggested that SP use my vector definitions for all new Shift keys going forward:

We are revising all of our SHIFT legends so that the T is closer to the F, so moving forward, anything that we are currently running or plan to run will have the adjusted SHIFT legend.

Make of that what you will.

This R4 Shifts thing is really good news, they should've done this long ago

I still think SP is too funky with their legends, especially their new custom ones, the ones for the Selectric sets etc., they all seem Comic Sans-ish to me, their SA legends are actually usually pretty good and consistent, yet their DSA ones have no standard, they mix and mash font-sizes and weights too much, that's why I'm still weary of SP sets

[zslane]

SP isn't a keyset designer, it is merely a keycap manufacturer. The variety of legend styles you see is all the responsibility of the custom keyset designers out there. SP sells generic dyesub PBT DSAs with a fairly heavy typeface, but that is the only full DSA set of their own "design" that they sell (that I know of).

It is especially easy (and inexpensive) to put almost anything on a keycap when using the dyesub process, and so dyesub PBT DSAs will have typefaces and icon legends that are all over the place. This can be a good thing (Granite) or a bad thing (Galaxy Class), depending on the taste of the designer. But in neither case does SP get any of the credit or blame.

It is far more expensive to create custom double-shot plates, and so you will find far more consistency between double-shot sets. Most SA keyset designers simply go with SP's standard Gorton Modified typeface and then pay for the few custom icon/graphic legend plates their sets need. 7bit's Space Cadet and APL keysets are rare specimens in the large number of custom legends they have. But again, SP has nothing to do with these designs.

[KHAANNN]

SP isn't a keyset designer, it is merely a keycap manufacturer. The variety of legend styles you see is all the responsibility of the custom keyset designers out there. SP sells generic dyesub PBT DSAs with a fairly heavy typeface, but that is the only full DSA set of their own "design" that they sell (that I know of).

It is especially easy (and inexpensive) to put almost anything on a keycap when using the dyesub process, and so dyesub PBT DSAs will have typefaces and icon legends that are all over the place. This can be a good thing (Granite) or a bad thing (Galaxy Class), depending on the taste of the designer. But in neither case does SP get any of the credit or blame.

It is far more expensive to create custom double-shot plates, and so you will find far more consistency between double-shot sets. Most SA keyset designers simply go with SP's standard Gorton Modified typeface and then pay for the few custom icon/graphic legend plates their sets need. 7bit's Space Cadet and APL keysets are rare specimens in the large number of custom legends they have. But again, SP has nothing to do with these designs.

Not entirely correct, far from it, there are a lot of things you can't change as a designer, those things that you can't change is why I don't like SP

Some legends are slightly bolder than others on SA, "Enter" and "Return" for example, almost all the custom icons are way outside the designer specs, it reminds me a lot of this: http://www.artistsandillustrators.co.uk/uploads/tinymce/images/ruined-spanish-jesus-fresco-painting.jpg

What I actually hate SP for is their DSA texts, many designers include some awesome keycap selections, but for me all of them were unusable because SP's funky font-size's, almost none of their "Shift" DSA keycaps have the same "Shift" font-sizing, the 2u, 1.75u ones all have slightly smaller font-sizes

Their 1.75 "Control" keycap has a lower font-size compared to the "Tab" and "Shift" keycaps, so If you intend to use the 1.75 Control, you have to live with that unnecessarily small "Control" phrase

I thought this was because they were incompetent, but after seeing this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76705.0 I think it might also be because some of their DSA keycaps have a smaller double-shottable area, tho this doesn't explain the font-weight issues they have with some SA legends/phrases

TL;DR: No it's not the designer's fault

[zslane]

If we're talking about the double-shot legend process, then variability is the result of two things: font choice (or in the case of icons/graphics, the correctness of the vector file sent to SP) and manufacturing tolerances.

SP only has three typeface sets, and 99.9% of their double-shots are made with their Gorton Modified typeface set. That set comes in three styles: normal, condensed, and wide (basically normal with extended Os and Qs and such). Each comes in numerous sizes. Designers will work with SP to come up with the font that will fit best on each key, but if a designer decides he wants condensed Gorton Modified on the SCROLL LOCK key, but wide Gorton Modified on the CAPS LOCK key, that inconsistency isn't SP's fault.

Of course, those fonts aren't digital, they are old-school metal blocks, with all the kerning issues that go with that. When you talk about things designers can't control, the shape and spacing of Gorton Modified letters is definitely one of them, but its the same for all designers, so for instance all SHIFT keys are SHIF T keys; its not like one keyset will have SHIFT while another will have SHIF T.

When it comes to icon/graphic legends, there has been a history of miscommunication/misunderstanding on the part of designers and SP alike. Some designers simply don't know how to send a proper vector file to SP, and SP simply doesn't know how to inform/educate designers so they get it right. Oobly is working diligently to improve this situation. We all stand to benefit from his hard work in this area.

Minute variations due to the nature of the plastic double-shot process are impossible to avoid, at least with the machines SP currently uses. Not much can be done about that without them spending big $$$ on new tooling.

P.S. If it's true that Modern Selectric was designed by SP themselves, then that is one example where we can lay the blame for its poor aesthetics squarely at their feet. But that is an isolated case, is it not?

[user 18]

P.S. If it's true that Modern Selectric was designed by SP themselves, then that is one example where we can lay the blame for its poor aesthetics squarely at their feet. But that is an isolated case, is it not?

Modern Selectric was not designed by SP, it was designed by user skullydazed and run through PMK.

See:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72254
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71540

[zslane]

Okay, then my original assessment stands: SP is not a keyset designer, just a manufacturer.

Of course, history shows there are still plenty of ways for them to make mistakes. But mistakes are fixable and not something a keyset designer has to settle for.

[KHAANNN]

Thanks a lot for the insight zslane

It's also good to hear at least things are improving

I will probably wait a while myself before getting another SP set, also, interestingly, I find their cherry replica DCS sets to be the most consistent ones

[Oobly]

I understand your concerns, KHAANN, and am aware of the majority of issues with the current legends. As zslane says, most of the more obvious issues with SA legends are either due to designers providing incorrectly specified legends (some scaling issues due to software differences, choosing mismatched line thickness, etc.) or choosing mismatched font options, or the inherent problem of the "manually kerned" / "unkernable" legacy Gorton Modified font legends made way back when.

SP are cutting new, better kerned SHIFT legends now, to be used on all SA sets in future, since those were the most glaringly in need of work. zslane's efforts (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/fixing-signature-plastics-shift-key-legends-digitally-t11522.html) have no doubt played a part in inspiring them to make this improvement.

I've almost finalised my detailed legend design specification document for designers to use as a reference (which will go up on the DT wiki and I'll post links when it's up) and will be introducing a new, properly kerned, modern font for SA keycaps which we want to get funded and cut (will start a thread on this by end of November) as an alternative to Gorton Modified.

An interesting point about the Cherry Replica legends is that that many of them appear to have been generated from scans of actual doubleshot caps, so some of the slight deformities / inconsistencies that I thought were due to molding by SP are actually present in the legend SVG files already and are cut and molded very accurately by SP. This bodes well for new legend designs and I think the new font will look very nice

[KHAANNN]

Just checked zslane's analysis, it's indeed very impressive

One wishes that keycap companies themselves were this thorough

[zslane]

Oobly, I wasn't aware that you were endeavoring to create an entirely new, digital, typeface for SP. What do you plan to call it? Is it going to be designed-by-community?
Strike that. I went back and re-read the Digital SHIFT thread on DT and saw all your posts on this subject. I had totally forgotten about that, though I confess I probably just scanned past it back when you first posted it because it seemed tangential at the time and I was buried in trying to get my center-line vectors all tidied up.

It's worth mentioning, I think, that any new legend typeface will be a "rounded" typeface whether we like it or not, simply due to the cutting method. I don't have any problem with that, but I'm sure there are folks out there who don't like characters and symbols with rounded ends.

[tofgerl]

By ends, do you mean where the serifs would be?

[zslane]

SP can not double-shot the mitred ends of Helvetica, and any attempt to duplicate its letter forms will always result in something resembling Helvetica Rounded instead.

Actually, to be more precise: the method used to produce plates for text legends employs a round cutting bit not unlike a drill bit. As such, the ends of any line it "carves" are as round as the cutting bit itself.

[Niomosy]

Thanks, Oobly, for all the hard work on that.  Glad to see this come to fruition.

[tofgerl]

Sure, the only way they could fix that would be to use tiny tiny drillbits to make the rounded edge-corners smaller and the edge look flatter. But of course I'm thinking of this as a DIY thing, which is pretty far from how things work in plastics. Not to mention the drillbits are already pretty damn small!

[zlittell]

The reason they a rounded is that you need to have a certain percentage of draft on the part so that the mold releases from the plastic correctly.  Sharp edges and minimal draft means plastic not flowing into corners completely and parts not releasing from tooling correctly.

[Oobly]

SP can not double-shot the mitred ends of Helvetica, and any attempt to duplicate its letter forms will always result in something resembling Helvetica Rounded instead.

Actually, to be more precise: the method used to produce plates for text legends employs a round cutting bit not unlike a drill bit. As such, the ends of any line it "carves" are as round as the cutting bit itself.

Yes, they use a round bit, but the diameter is just 0.012", so "rounded" does not have to equal "round"...



They (SP) have two methods for cutting legend molds, one using just a centre line and line thickness, which is how most of the Gorton legends are made and it results in round ends with diameter the same as the line thickness, and one where you specify an "area" to be cut away, which has very specific requirements, but allows you to have finer detail and practically any shape as long as the largest outside curve is less than 0.012", the gaps and islands are smaller than a certain size and the legend doesn't extend too far out over the first shot support wall... This is all inculded in the document I'll be posting soon to the DT wiki.

Hold your horses.. I'll get the font info out there soon enough. It takes a LOT of work to create a full set of SVG files for all the legends needed, and there's a lot of going back to do things over again when I discover some particular legend doesn't meet the specs, so I have to change sizes or kerning for a bunch of caps again, but there's slow progress being made.

[zslane]

SP seems to steer every custom text legend project towards the center-line method, which results in rounded ends. I don't think there's ever been a third-party legend set (i.e., not a novelty set)  that used the in-fill method. If yours is going to be in-fill, Oobly, then I think it will be the first of its kind. And expensive. And probably tricky for SP to get right. But I look forward to seeing the end result.

[CQ_Cumbers]

SP seems to steer every custom text legend project towards the center-line method, which results in rounded ends. I don't think there's ever been a third-party legend set (i.e., not a novelty set)  that used the in-fill method. If yours is going to be in-fill, Oobly, then I think it will be the first of its kind. And expensive. And probably tricky for SP to get right. But I look forward to seeing the end result.

Signature Plastics said that both methods cost the same, and I believe the Cherry Replica Legends used the in-fill method for a full set before. I think it is primarily the effort required, for designing so many keys consistently and within SP's restrictions, that has been prohibitive for all but the most ambitious projects. It remains to be seen how well SP executes the design, so plans are to check the final molded keys for errors and try to fix them if possible. Oobly really has been doing a lot of work.