Legends are big small :/ but looks clean.
I mean a bit small smh
Aiming for accurate legend implementation instead of aesthetics.
I appreciate this project. Looking forward to seeing renders and vendors.The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.
GMK.
WoB.
Aiming for accurate legend implementation instead of aesthetics.
First off, I want to say that I appreciate the work you put into this project as somebody who's been working on this concept as well. After examining the renders, there are a few concerns I have:
- Missing small kana (ぁ、ぃ、ぅ、ぇ、ぉ、っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ)
- Missing を
- Missing ￥ on ANSI pipe keys
- む on pipe key in Alphas Kit
- Top-left aligned text legends in some places, dead center in others: Please keep it all center left.
- Appearance of half-width/full-width modifier: A double-line version will exist with GMK Beta, but as far as I know a single-line version does not (半/全). Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to introduce this legend? If you intend on making this a double-line modifier I suggest changing it to match its appearance on GMK Beta for clarity.
- How do you intend to handle legends that will be difficult/impossible to reproduce with doubleshot molding (英数、無変換、変換)? GMK Camping R2 had this issue where the kanji legends on the novelty arrows had to be pad-printed rather than doubleshot.I appreciate this project. Looking forward to seeing renders and vendors.The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.
GMK.
WoB.
Aiming for accurate legend implementation instead of aesthetics.
The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.The current GMK hiragana layout (ANSI) as well as the JIS layout is included in this base kit.
The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.Yes. I'm aware of the current Hiragana sublegends. It's still nice to see sets aiming for accuracy when there are plenty of designers that either haven't or don't care about accuracy in favor of their aesthetics. Not even exclusive to Japanese
The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.Yes. I'm aware of the current Hiragana sublegends. It's still nice to see sets aiming for accuracy when there are plenty of designers that either haven't or don't care about accuracy in favor of their aesthetics. Not even exclusive to Japanese
Thank you for running this! Very excited to see somebody taking this on, and especially pleased that you are offering both latin monolegend and kana sublegend variants. I’ll take a proper look in the morning and see if there’s any feedback I can offer, but I am extremely keen to see this project succeed!
I'll take any advice you have and I really appreciate it.
- Missing ￥ on ANSI pipe keys
[...]
The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.
- Missing small kana (ぁ、ぃ、ぅ、ぇ、ぉ、っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ)
- Missing を
- Missing 「」on ANSI bracket keys
- Missing ー on ANSI underscore/dash key
- む on pipe key in Alphas Kit
- Top-left aligned text legends in some places, dead center in others: Please keep it all center left.
- Half-width/full-width modifier appearance: A double-line version will exist with GMK Beta, but as far as I know a single-line version does not (半/全). Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to introduce this legend? If you intend on making this a double-line modifier I suggest changing it to match its appearance on GMK Beta for clarity.
Your カタカナ/ひらがな key looks a little imbalanced; either they could be brought to the centre, or the third ローマ字 legend that appears on some designs could be added.+1 for these suggestions as well!
In general I agree with your decision to go with text mods and standard 無変換/変換/英数/かな labels for the legends, as it is the more conservative, “standard” choice. However, have you considered offering icon mod alternatives for 無変換/変換, perhaps in the extensions kit? With other mods, people can swap them out for icon mods from other sets if they prefer, but with 無変換/変換 those mods are not generally offered by other sets, and there are no standard moulds currently available. And they are popular: Every keyboard pictured in your original post uses icon mods for those keys. Just a thought.
You’ll probably want a 4.5U space bar for compatibility with existing Japanese keyboards. I’m not sure whether GMK has the tooling to support this, though; that’s one thing to bear in mind as I expect that the costs of developing such tooling would be much higher than new moulds. I don’t really know, though, so just something to keep in the back of your mind as needing to confirm with GMK. Your other “funny” spacebar sizes may run into the same difficulty. They definitely have 3U support now, but I’m not sure about 4U, for example.
I've had another look this morning and it looks good! Others have commented on the small legend size; I am assuming you will want to use GMK's existing moulds where possible so you will need to match your new keys to the dimensions of those. From your other response it sounds as if this is just an issue with the render so I'll look forward to seeing updated renders when they're available :-)
Is the lack of quaternary legends (small ぁぃぅぇぉゃゅょ, and full-sized を) an aesthetic choice or an oversight? Since you are in general following a fairly conservative WoB aesthetic, my preference would be to include them as most Japanese keyboards do, even though skipping them, or including を but not the others, are both valid choices from an aesthetic point of view.
Your カタカナ/ひらがな key looks a little imbalanced; either they could be brought to the centre, or the third ローマ字 legend that appears on some designs could be added.
In general I agree with your decision to go with text mods and standard 無変換/変換/英数/かな labels for the legends, as it is the more conservative, “standard” choice. However, have you considered offering icon mod alternatives for 無変換/変換, perhaps in the extensions kit? With other mods, people can swap them out for icon mods from other sets if they prefer, but with 無変換/変換 those mods are not generally offered by other sets, and there are no standard moulds currently available. And they are popular: Every keyboard pictured in your original post uses icon mods for those keys. Just a thought.
You’ll probably want a 4.5U space bar for compatibility with existing Japanese keyboards. I’m not sure whether GMK has the tooling to support this, though; that’s one thing to bear in mind as I expect that the costs of developing such tooling would be much higher than new moulds. I don’t really know, though, so just something to keep in the back of your mind as needing to confirm with GMK. Your other “funny” spacebar sizes may run into the same difficulty. They definitely have 3U support now, but I’m not sure about 4U, for example.
Anyway, great job so far, and I’m looking forward to seeing this develop!
- Missing ￥ on ANSI pipe keys
[...]
The current implementation of hiragana sublegends (V2) is accurate aside from the lack of a ￥, assuming one is using a Japanese IME on an ANSI layout. All the punctuation is in the right place and all hiragana are accounted for.
Including the yen sign in ANSI-based Japanese keysets is not accurate and should not be done.
Adding a character as a (sub)legend to a key implies that said character can be produced by pressing that key together with a certain combination of modifiers and lock states on a given logical layout that the (sub)legends are meant to represent.
Usually, the yen sign (¥, U+00A5) isn't a character that can be typed on a standard Japanese keyboard layout by pressing any combination of keys and modifiers, in any lock state.
Instead, ¥ is traditionally just a graphical representation of the backslash (\, U+005C) on most Japanese systems. In other words, the actual character that's being input is a backslash; it just gets displayed on the screen as a yen sign. (Yes, it still works like this even in the age of Unicode and emoji skin color modifiers and gender combination sequences.)
Not all systems do it like this, though, and some (e.g. macOS) give you the option of outputting an actual ¥ character, but I wouldn't call this the norm.
Here's a concrete example pertaining to this keyset:
Adding ¥ as a quaternary sublegend (top-right in GMK) to the \|む key would imply that you are able to type a ¥ character by pressing this key together with Shift while in kana input mode. This is not the case; doing that will just produce む. In order to type ¥, you would have to change your logical layout, keyboard type, or sometimes even your system language, to Japanese; in which case the character would be produced by just pressing the key regularly (no Shift and no kana mode), like regular backslash. So the quaternary (top-right) position is incorrect either way.
For that reason, ¥ should not be included in ANSI-based Japanese keyset legends. For JIS-based keysets it's okay, since those are intended to be used with Japanese layouts on Japanese systems anyway.
By the way, all of this also applies to the won sign (₩) in Korean keysets, which works the same way.- Missing small kana (ぁ、ぃ、ぅ、ぇ、ぉ、っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ)
- Missing を
- Missing 「」on ANSI bracket keys
- Missing ー on ANSI underscore/dash key
- む on pipe key in Alphas Kit
- Top-left aligned text legends in some places, dead center in others: Please keep it all center left.
- Half-width/full-width modifier appearance: A double-line version will exist with GMK Beta, but as far as I know a single-line version does not (半/全). Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to introduce this legend? If you intend on making this a double-line modifier I suggest changing it to match its appearance on GMK Beta for clarity.
Your remaining remarks I agree with. I would like to add that the current sublegend on the R1 ¥|へ JIS key is incorrect; it's supposed to be ¥|ー. Also, the quaternary sublegend on the /?ろ key is supposed to be a ・ (U+30FB), but that might just be a rendering error.
The single-line 半/全 legend mold does exist; it was introduced in GMK Mecha-01 (https://mitormk.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/mecha-01_base.png).
2Moons, feel free to use these references (https://imgur.com/a/Y3UDiMK) to double-check if you got the ANSI-based portion of the legends right. Also these (https://imgur.com/a/Y2rvl1s) for cross referencing the legends you have with the standard JP layouts.
Another thing I just noticed — it’s a little bit difficult to tell from the renders, but do you have a 2U shift? That, as well as a bottom-row 1.75U Ctrl key, is helpful for a GH60 MiniLa-style bottom row like the one of you have pictured. I actually bought a GH60(-like) PCB from YMDK with a view to building a JIS-compatible layout with it, but haven’t got around to building it yet because I realised none of the keysets I’ve bought so far have that bottom-row 1.75U Ctrl.
wew, i actually quite like this set. wob never lost, and i personally like small latin + small foreign legends a lot.
I do agree on the legends being a bit too small, but from a design perspective, it does make sense. They are in respective sizes to the text in the modifiers and don't stick out too much in comparison to the Japanese texts. Also, being made by GMK, they would still look very sharp. Overall, very glad to see another WoB set, this time with an Extension and Mac set! I'm in! Good luck with the behind the scenes!
I do agree on the legends being a bit too small, but from a design perspective, it does make sense. They are in respective sizes to the text in the modifiers and don't stick out too much in comparison to the Japanese texts. Also, being made by GMK, they would still look very sharp. Overall, very glad to see another WoB set, this time with an Extension and Mac set! I'm in! Good luck with the behind the scenes!
Seeing as these are just KLE mockups, the legends will not look like that in the actual keyset. They will be like in any GMK hiragana set (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/735179686186844202/746114733308117053/gmk_js_kit_01_base.jpg).
Any chance for a couple of extra generic 1.5u mods (Super, System, Code, Fn, etc.) either in the Extension or Base kit?
I've updated the kits to the latest version, it should have some extras in the extensions kit.
Hi, this looks nice. Is there a chance of updating the kit pictures to show which row each keycap supports?
Thanks
I'm still looking over all of the minor details, but I would be especially happy if these were included, in descending order of personal importance:
- 1.5U Command and Option keys
- 1U かな and 英数 keys
- Numpad keys without navigation sublegends
- An = key for the top row of the numpad
1u 英数 and かな are included in the updated base kit, and 1.5u System keys are in the extension kit. :)
1u 英数 and かな are included in the updated base kit, and 1.5u System keys are in the extension kit. :)
I see the 1U 英数 and かな keys now. Great!
What are "System keys," though? I don't see Command or Option.
1u 英数 and かな are included in the updated base kit, and 1.5u System keys are in the extension kit. :)
I see the 1U 英数 and かな keys now. Great!
What are "System keys," though? I don't see Command or Option.
Woohoo! Excited for the best JIS keyset ever!
Can't wait for GB to happen,
Good luck 2moons!
This was changed to System. I updated the set to the current mock-up. I will be finishing off vectors off hopefully Sunday and submitting them to my main vendor.
This was changed to System. I updated the set to the current mock-up. I will be finishing off vectors off hopefully Sunday and submitting them to my main vendor.
Any chance for Command keys in the Extensions kit? GMK has done them for other sets, so they should have the molds already.
What's the difference between using this set on ANSI layout compared to other sets that use Japanese as an aesthetic? Not meant to be criticism or anything, just curious.
What's the difference between using this set on ANSI layout compared to other sets that use Japanese as an aesthetic? Not meant to be criticism or anything, just curious.
Thank you so much. I've updated the set to it's latest version. Buying a base kit and an alphas kit will allow you put caps on 2 keyboards. Accent keys were added and an accent spacebar kit. I have completed vectors for all new molds. Personally, I'm hyped.
Hey man, thank you for the thorough explanation. It really helped my understanding of this set that there's more to it compared to sets that Japanese as an aesthetic. I think I'll consider picking it up if there's a group buy.What's the difference between using this set on ANSI layout compared to other sets that use Japanese as an aesthetic? Not meant to be criticism or anything, just curious.
You get correct ANSI-JP hiragana sublegends on an ANSI board, which thanks to konstantin’s efforts is becoming more common but is still far from universal. You might say that if it’s just for the aesthetic correctness doesn’t matter, but there is a satisfaction, I think, that comes with knowing a set is correct, and if you ever decided to enable kana input mode on your machine just to see what happens you’ll be pleased to see that each key you press comes out correctly with no weirdness.
You also get the extra JIS modifier keys like 無変換, 変換, かな, etc. Not many sets include these. You might not need them, but if you’re going for the Japanese aesthetic you may be able to find a use for them. If you really want to experiment, there is nothing stopping you from exploring a JIS-style bottom row with an ANSI layout for your alphas and punctuation! I personally think the smaller space bar with a 1.25U key to either side opens up a lot of possibilities and is a more convenient layout than the other popular split-spacebar options out there! You could use them as raise/lower keys to enable two different layer options like the Planck, for example.
Other than that, it’s a fairly standard WoB colourway by GMK. If you happen to be in the market for white-on-black with hiragana sublegends it’s exactly what you’re looking for!
I looked at the icons which I assume represent roundabouts but they don't really exist here and also, since driving here is on the Left Hand Side the direction of the arrows are wrong.
I looked at the icons which I assume represent roundabouts but they don't really exist here and also, since driving here is on the Left Hand Side the direction of the arrows are wrong.
If you provide a couple examples of sets that have them, I'll take it to a couple people and ask what they think. Otherwise I don't see much benefit considering system, blank caps, and JIS mac specific caps are already included. Can you provide some documentation for the use of command keys as well? I would appreciate it.
If you provide a couple examples of sets that have them, I'll take it to a couple people and ask what they think. Otherwise I don't see much benefit considering system, blank caps, and JIS mac specific caps are already included. Can you provide some documentation for the use of command keys as well? I would appreciate it.
GMK Modern Dolch is the first that comes to mind, although I have seen others.
- Text legends (http://"https://dixiemech.store/products/gmk-modern-dolch-2-keycap-set?variant=32181273854026")
- Symbolic legends (http://"https://dixiemech.store/products/gmk-modern-dolch-2-keycap-set?variant=32181273821258")
Is there a particular reason for the "System" legend used in these mockups instead? I'm not aware of any operating system that refers to a modifier as the "System" key.
Fair enough. Being GMK, it should be easy to mix and match with other sets, anyway.
Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
A base kit and an extensions kit is all black spacebars except 6.0 and 6.25.
Why would you add a white 6u if there is no black 6u? Makes no sense to me especially since this is supposed to be a WoB set. Or am I misunderstanding?Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
A base kit and an extensions kit is all black spacebars except 6.0 and 6.25.
Why would you add a white 6u if there is no black 6u? Makes no sense to me especially since this is supposed to be a WoB set. Or am I misunderstanding?Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
A base kit and an extensions kit is all black spacebars except 6.0 and 6.25.
I know that some international layouts use 6u. I do also have keyboards that use 6u with offset stems, but I’m not in a great need of it. I just found it strange that the spacebars were white since the theme of the set was WoBWhy would you add a white 6u if there is no black 6u? Makes no sense to me especially since this is supposed to be a WoB set. Or am I misunderstanding?Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
A base kit and an extensions kit is all black spacebars except 6.0 and 6.25.
It's true, there is no black 6u. Also there is no offset 6u found in most kits either. Personally 6u is not a thing I have ever used, but a white version is in the space kit just in case. Is a 6u black also something you would want? Personally I'd rather have at least the white in there for someone who might want it.
Why would you add a white 6u if there is no black 6u? Makes no sense to me especially since this is supposed to be a WoB set. Or am I misunderstanding?Will there be a black version of the space bars kit?
A base kit and an extensions kit is all black spacebars except 6.0 and 6.25.
It's true, there is no black 6u. Also there is no offset 6u found in most kits either. Personally 6u is not a thing I have ever used, but a white version is in the space kit just in case. Is a 6u black also something you would want? Personally I'd rather have at least the white in there for someone who might want it.
hoping for a canadian vendor, ty+1 for a Canadian vendor.
hoping for a canadian vendor, ty+1 for a Canadian vendor.
hoping for a canadian vendor, ty
I guess it's too late for an Artisan / Rama to happen?
any luck with a black spacebars kit? :)
Between the base kit spacebars and the extensions kit, I believe only 6u in black is missing.
If this is truly meant to be Japanese, I would expect to see a full hiragana alphas kit.
If this is truly meant to be Japanese, I would expect to see a full hiragana alphas kit.
Actual LOL. Thank you for that.
If this is truly meant to be Japanese, I would expect to see a full hiragana alphas kit.
Actual LOL. Thank you for that.
I agree as well.
I assume its too late for a Canadian vendor? :c
will the base kit have an option for a 1.75u Shift keycap? Cant seem to identify from the renders.
quite interested in this for the 4.5u spacebar alone. what length stabilizer wire does it need? 4u? and do you know where such a stabilizer wire can be found?
I would like to see this with a colevrak kit (bonus points if you include an "A" homing key for QGMLWB support also) and 1u mods.
from 2moon's discord:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/v6TdR9d.png)
any consideration for hiragana alphas?
I think they meant hiragana mono legendsany consideration for hiragana alphas?
The whole set is Hiragana, no?
GB time has come!
GB live on kbdfansGB time has come!
wait what?! it's happening?
does this set use standard gmk black and white colors? or are they custom ones?
Can we have a price table? :)
[mention]2Moons [/mention] Love your work on this set and would like to build a keyboard in the JIS layout so the set will be use in full potential.
I know you dabbled in PCB design as well. Is it possible that you design TKL pcb (like the H88 or H87) to fit the JIS layout?
That would so cool!
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All pricing up on the IC[mention]2Moons [/mention] Love your work on this set and would like to build a keyboard in the JIS layout so the set will be use in full potential.
I know you dabbled in PCB design as well. Is it possible that you design TKL pcb (like the H88 or H87) to fit the JIS layout?
That would so cool!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually YES. There will probably be 2 JIS TKL pcbs and a 60 percent coming out during or soon after the GB. 4.5u stabilizers will be a thing coming soon as well.
Very cool set. I ordered a few kits. What do the rings with the three arrows mean? I haven't been able to find out from image search.
Someone asked this earlier, but it doesn't look like its been answered anywhere...
What white are the set gonna use. A new Patone white or a GMK preset like WS1 or WS2?