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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:18

Title: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:18
Hi, this is an interest check for a keyboard I've designed that I want to produce :

The LL 305K
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194274066_826e100df5_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZS36G)

________________________

ABOUT ME :
You may know me from Deskthority as I am more active there, or you may know me for being an avid Cherry documenter (https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=21307). I am into OG Cherry and obscure forgotten customs.

________________________

ABOUT THIS KEYBOARD :
This is inspired by my all time favourite keyboard, the KMAC2. But I designed it as such as to modernise the original design.

________________________
SPECIFICATIONS :
- This is a a87 compatible case, no more proprietary PCB shenanigans. However, this does kill the tray mount option the KMAC2 had -
- This is a truly bottom + top mount case -
- It will be strictly WKL (or WK, please give feedback on this thread so I know what I should expect of the demand for this board) -
- Plates offered will most likely be universal (the one rendered, not final), fixed ANSI, fixed ISO, half plate ANSI, half plate ISO -
- Colours are to be determined, but I would like some classic colours (silver, grey, black and red plate for exemple but again, please make suggestions in the thread) -
- The angle is 6° -
- Front height is 19,9mm -
- The USB port cutout sits flush with the case. (Yes, I know there is a bit of leeway at the top, I'll get back to this in a second) -
- PCB will not be provided -
- LIMITED TO 25 UNITS (this is subject to change) -

________________________

PRICE :
Price is to be determined.

________________________

RENDERS :
More
it's my first time doing renders, so please tell me if anything is off, or if you would like to see some different angles or anything.
More
(https://i.imgur.com/WrVzPt5.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eRBNimw.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qA4cJFX.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/aheU0WN.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/7FDNm5Y.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/SloXpRF.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/7dGcCno.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/dAsHvIr.png)

Update renders :
(https://i.imgur.com/TFcSit9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/szX7RMu.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/dzHUOqk.png)


________________________

TO-DO :
- wait for PCB to come in, and build this keyboard
- figure out manufacturing

________________________

A SMALL TALK ABOUT GOING FORWARD :
As this is my first IC ever, this of course means that I want to do things as right as I possibly can. Hence the low amount of units, which I can go through thoroughly and make sure everything is right. I will not go onwards with a group buy without prototyping. This post is here to check interest in my first (but certainly not last) project. Updates will be posted here, and no discord will be created for the occasion. If you must, you can contact me on discord @ louison#9774.

________________________

MANY AND HUGE THANKS TO  :
ball00n, damonskv, Delirious, E3E, firebort, //gainsborough, jorj_mk, meatwad, mike52787, photekq, seiden, scottc, Tias, tinnie aka tinlong117 and everyone else (you know who you are, don't worry I'm generous on the thanks :-*) that have been by my side these last few months. You may not think you directly helped much, but you definitely did, thank you all!

________________________

Please give me feedback on the design if you would like to see something differ from what I originally posted. Thank you for reading this IC =)

________________________
Updates :
09/11/2020 : IC posted
10/11/2020 : added WK and north facing spacebar stab in the to-do list
13/11/2020 : more renders added https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109502.msg2979627#msg2979627
22/05/2021 : prototype update https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109502.msg3051958#msg3051958

Title: Re: LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:47
Quote from: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:18
- The USB port cutout sits flush with the case. (Yes, I know there is a bit of leeway at the top, I'll get back to this in a second) -

When I was making reproduction plates for my original KMAC2, I realised the plate was being squished between the two halves even when it wasn't screwed to either halves. Essentially making a sandwich case... which was rather disappointing. I also own a Lin Montage and this keyboard also feature a bottom + top mounting system, and so I checked there and there was some leeway for the plate to move when it wasn't screwed to either halves, I checked the USB port and I noticed some leeway as well. And it clicked in my head. Which is why there is some leeway on the USB port cutout on the 305K.

A picture is worth a thousand words, I can't imagine how many words a video is equal to :

KMAC2 :

Lin Montage :

The only potentially wrong part of this experiment is that the KMAC plate in the video is made of 1.6mm  thick FR4 when the original plate should be 1.5mm thick aluminium. I doubt 0.1mm would make such a huge difference considering the leeway on the Montage, but I want to mention it to put every bit of information out there.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: wodan on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:59:38
Please daddy
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: SantiGo on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:02:11
nice work.... GL  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: yui_ on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:02:24
Ily Lou glwic
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: //gainsborough on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:12:20
ayyyyyyyyy!  Seen you put lots of work into this - it looks great!  Good luck, mate!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:24:57
Quote from: wodan on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:59:38
Please daddy


Quote from: SantiGo on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:02:11
nice work.... GL  :thumb:

Quote from: jorj_mk on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:02:24
Ily Lou glwic

Quote from: //gainsborough on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:12:20
ayyyyyyyyy!  Seen you put lots of work into this - it looks great!  Good luck, mate!

<3
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Damonskv on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:27:16
reserve one spot for me
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Bunn3y on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:29:24
That's a very pretty looking rectangle, GLWIC!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: krautcat on Mon, 09 November 2020, 09:59:27
Nice.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Tias on Mon, 09 November 2020, 10:40:40
awesome work man, nice to see your design reach IC after all your hard work :thumb: I've always liked the classic design of the kmac, and I'll definitely be onboard when this reaches GB. GL with IC!!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: meowscanttype on Mon, 09 November 2020, 12:04:38
nice nice GLWIC  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 09 November 2020, 12:11:44
KMAC the cleanest of rectangles, now we even cleaner

i also prefer wk and i'm sure this is a meme at this point but i've always wanted a blue kmac
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 09 November 2020, 22:13:42
I'm in; color me interested mr Myoth

I have a small piece of feedback -- it is possible that the h87a PCBs will be north-facing spacebar, from what I recall. I'd suggest just making those cutouts longer to accommodate for that, just in case it happens that someone would use a north-facing spacebar PCB.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: andrewregal on Mon, 09 November 2020, 22:26:03
Very clean. Would be interested if you decided to go WK instead of WKL
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: devilDesignsKB on Mon, 09 November 2020, 22:27:24
seriously, this is it. this is as rectangular as it gets, as simple as a keyboard design can be.  ;D ;D

Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: jimboytacos on Mon, 09 November 2020, 23:44:35
Would you consider USB-C?
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Anthixious on Tue, 10 November 2020, 01:44:27
Possibility for a brass weight? Not gonna ask for a whole brass bottom considering this is your first board, don't want more pressure than necessary  :p , looks like a simple TKL, very neutral, and I like neutral. Looking forward to colors and everything else!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: GaNeBaL on Tue, 10 November 2020, 02:24:04
v nice and simple, i enjoy that there's no crazy frills or weights  :thumb: also allowing for a wk option would be nice too
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Tue, 10 November 2020, 13:59:31
Quote from: Tias on Mon, 09 November 2020, 10:40:40
awesome work man, nice to see your design reach IC after all your hard work :thumb: I've always liked the classic design of the kmac, and I'll definitely be onboard when this reaches GB. GL with IC!!

Partly thanks to you !

Quote from: Sifo on Mon, 09 November 2020, 12:11:44
KMAC the cleanest of rectangles, now we even cleaner

i also prefer wk and i'm sure this is a meme at this point but i've always wanted a blue kmac

Quote from: andrewregal on Mon, 09 November 2020, 22:26:03
Very clean. Would be interested if you decided to go WK instead of WKL

Quote from: GaNeBaL on Tue, 10 November 2020, 02:24:04
v nice and simple, i enjoy that there's no crazy frills or weights  :thumb: also allowing for a wk option would be nice too

Alright, WK will be offered then :)

Quote from: LightningXI on Mon, 09 November 2020, 22:13:42
I'm in; color me interested mr Myoth

I have a small piece of feedback -- it is possible that the h87a PCBs will be north-facing spacebar, from what I recall. I'd suggest just making those cutouts longer to accommodate for that, just in case it happens that someone would use a north-facing spacebar PCB.

That's an easy fix, thanks for pointing it out, I will be sure to fix it and eventually render the changed plate !

Quote from: Anthixious on Tue, 10 November 2020, 01:44:27
Possibility for a brass weight? Not gonna ask for a whole brass bottom considering this is your first board, don't want more pressure than necessary  :p , looks like a simple TKL, very neutral, and I like neutral. Looking forward to colors and everything else!

Unfortunately a weight is not considered and will probably not happen as I want to stay true to the original design, which is the simplest of them all. However weights are something I really want to experiment with, so I have no doubts you'll find one of my next boards with a weight, and hopefully it'll suit you !


Quote from: jimboytacos on Mon, 09 November 2020, 23:44:35
Would you consider USB-C?

I've thought about it but my main gripe about USB-C is that there are still only a handful of TKL PCBs that use it, and most if not all of them are MX. As an Alps sympathizer, it would kill all Alps support and that's a shame to be honest. Don't get me wrong USB-C has been more and more tempting, and I definitely want to design boards with that in mind, but for now I personally don't think it's widespread enough. Hopefully that's an understandable opinion !

Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: krautcat on Tue, 10 November 2020, 14:52:37
I can't understand from the renders, but is the design of the board seamless?
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: LightningXI on Tue, 10 November 2020, 15:29:24
Quote from: krautcat on Tue, 10 November 2020, 14:52:37
I can't understand from the renders, but is the design of the board seamless?

No, it's a classic two-piece design. Has a top piece and an angled bottom piece.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Kinesiologist on Tue, 10 November 2020, 16:26:46
you had me at WKL :D
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Tue, 10 November 2020, 16:44:25
Quote from: krautcat on Tue, 10 November 2020, 14:52:37
I can't understand from the renders, but is the design of the board seamless?

the renders aren't great, like I said it's my first time ever making renders :D
but it DEFINITELY has a seam, as it is a "regular" kind of closing system

not sure if it would help, but here is a pic of my KMAC2, where you can see the seam :
(https://i.imgur.com/7Z7xyRI.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Zeelobby on Tue, 10 November 2020, 18:01:40
Yeah, the kmac slab is great. Loving how this looks.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: DERBS on Tue, 10 November 2020, 19:01:11
Definitely interested
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: krautcat on Wed, 11 November 2020, 04:33:57
Quote from: LightningXI on Tue, 10 November 2020, 15:29:24
No, it's a classic two-piece design. Has a top piece and an angled bottom piece.

I supposed this in my head especially with knowledge this board as the modern approach to the KMAC design, but renders led me to the confusion. Thanks for the clarifying!

Quote from: Myoth on Tue, 10 November 2020, 16:44:25
the renders aren't great, like I said it's my first time ever making renders :D
but it DEFINITELY has a seam, as it is a "regular" kind of closing system

not sure if it would help, but here is a pic of my KMAC2, where you can see the seam :

Thanks for the answer! I love seam design of original KMAC so my question was sorta because of misunderstanding.
Title: Re: LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Fri, 13 November 2020, 13:57:04
Some more information about the double mounting system :

More
Quote from: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:47
Quote from: Myoth on Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:55:18
- The USB port cutout sits flush with the case. (Yes, I know there is a bit of leeway at the top, I'll get back to this in a second) -

When I was making reproduction plates for my original KMAC2, I realised the plate was being squished between the two halves even when it wasn't screwed to either halves. Essentially making a sandwich case... which was rather disappointing. I also own a Lin Montage and this keyboard also feature a bottom + top mounting system, and so I checked there and there was some leeway for the plate to move when it wasn't screwed to either halves, I checked the USB port and I noticed some leeway as well. And it clicked in my head. Which is why there is some leeway on the USB port cutout on the 305K.

A picture is worth a thousand words, I can't imagine how many words a video is equal to :

KMAC2 :

Lin Montage :

The only potentially wrong part of this experiment is that the KMAC plate in the video is made of 1.6mm  thick FR4 when the original plate should be 1.5mm thick aluminium. I doubt 0.1mm would make such a huge difference considering the leeway on the Montage, but I want to mention it to put every bit of information out there.



And onto the differences I made on the case,  I changed the plate to be nort-facing and I made a WK version of the case. I made a few quick renders to showcase those changes :

WK case :
(https://i.imgur.com/TFcSit9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/szX7RMu.png)

North-facing spacebar cutout on the WKL version :
(https://i.imgur.com/dzHUOqk.png)

Now I want to tackle the plate compatibility question, I have been pretty vague about it, but here are the plates I think I'll make in the GB. It  goes without saying that I'll make the plate files available to the public so you can make whatever quirky layout you want to have :D

WKL :
- ANSI fixed plate (with stepped caps lock)
- ISO fixed plate (with stepped caps lock)

WK :
- ANSI fixed plate (with stepped caps lock and off-center 6.25u spacebar cutout)
- a very universal half-plate with 7u + 6.25u bottom row, ANSI + ISO, centered + stepped caps lock

Alps :
- WKL fixed plate
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 13 November 2020, 14:00:11
All of those changes are good. Just to note, however, the Linworks Montage is designed so that the sandwich-mount style requires a 2mm plate, which is why there is leeway when you place a regular-thickness 1.5mm plate.

In other words, for the Montage:

when using a 1.5mm plate -- only top or bottom-mount work (possible to do sandwich if you add some lining/padding material to fill the gaps)
when using a 2mm plate -- only sandwich mount works
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K
Post by: Myoth on Fri, 13 November 2020, 14:13:19
Quote from: LightningXI on Fri, 13 November 2020, 14:00:11
All of those changes are good. Just to note, however, the Linworks Montage is designed so that the sandwich-mount style requires a 2mm plate, which is why there is leeway when you place a regular-thickness 1.5mm plate.

In other words, for the Montage:

when using a 1.5mm plate -- only top or bottom-mount work (possible to do sandwich if you add some lining/padding material to fill the gaps)
when using a 2mm plate -- only sandwich mount works

wow, even though that double mounting system was one of its selling point for me, I didn't even know it was made that way, that explains a lot!! my main line of thought was that if a case had no leeway for the plate to move around, and was designed to be a top+bottom mount case, then it might as well be sandwich. Which is something that I want to avoid since it's a very gruesome way of implementing this sort of double mounting.
Checking the 305K's design, if you wanted to make a sandwich mount, you'd have to use a 2mm plate as well, exactly like the Montage, so I guess I did success in my implementation of top+bottom mount :DD

(https://i.imgur.com/VDMBmCK.png)
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: Myoth on Fri, 21 May 2021, 19:20:36
Hi, I have some exciting news today ! My prototype came in !

These are artsy pictures because I was so excited but there will be more pics throughout the prototyping (read as during IC) phase. I was just really excited to finally touch a design I made all on my own. So I took pictures of it.

I'll give my insight right now since the pictures will take the cake. I'm amazed by the prototype and it all fits. A small oversight on my end is that I completely forgot about all the screws and feet, so I'll be ordering these soon. I had some of the right size of screws lying around so I used them. But I noticed the plate screws would just ... clip into the top and the case didn't need any kind of screws for the case itself. The screws you see in the pictures (the ones I just mentionned) aren't the ones I intended to use during the designing phase. So I'm hoping this won't be a problem once I get the right screws.

The next step is getting a PCB and making sure it fits, and see how the keyboard sounds. PCB is supposed to come in "June 2021". I will also update this whenever I get the right screws.

TL;DR
The good : The first prototype is in !
The bad : I don't have a PCB because of GB delays - _-


For now, enjoy the pictures ;D

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194202776_ac01268a69_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZREUy)
DSCF2708 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZREUy) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194973939_618e603506_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVC9t)
DSCF2696_edited (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVC9t) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194995539_c694cda15e_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVJyT)
DSCF2698_edited-2 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVJyT) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194973714_c0d379c955_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVC5A)
DSCF2700_edited (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVC5A) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194983714_813cbbc962_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVF41)
DSCF2773 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZVF41) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193504012_ec72e36580_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZN6bU)
DSCF2727_edited (https://flic.kr/p/2kZN6bU) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194212431_1da9cf6ab6_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZRHM2)
DSCF2762_edited-1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kZRHM2) by Myoth (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160638404@N05/), sur Flickr
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 21 May 2021, 19:28:51
We need them side profile pics too!

Fun stuff!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: Myoth on Fri, 21 May 2021, 19:41:04
Quote from: LightningXI on Fri, 21 May 2021, 19:28:51
We need them side profile pics too!

Fun stuff!

ha, I had taken pics of the side profile to compare it to the KMAC2 (especially the front height), I didn't post them because they weren't really nice and I wanted to go more indepth in the comparison but here you go :

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193577112_02325ce5d7_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZNsVf)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51194504928_b70bf34543_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZTdJ5)


the TL;DR is that it's ways different than the original, but I am very happy about how I, IMO, managed to modernise it.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: krautcat on Sat, 22 May 2021, 02:14:11
I love the way it is. Very good work. So much want it.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: luke2fr on Sat, 22 May 2021, 08:28:20
Would  be interested by a WK ansi one :)
 :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: sup3r170va on Sat, 22 May 2021, 08:50:22
Looks nice. WKL for me!
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: axm2 on Sun, 23 May 2021, 18:11:40
I'm super interested. I love my KMAC2 especially the titanium gray color, but the pcb is going bad and the anodization has imperfections. Put me down for one
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: autobot on Mon, 24 May 2021, 05:38:43
Gorgeous!  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: ramnes on Tue, 25 May 2021, 04:03:26
cocorico
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: TheInverseKey on Thu, 03 June 2021, 15:51:11
YEP going have to join this.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: treeleaf64 on Thu, 03 June 2021, 18:49:07
I have to go to my friend's barbeque party now but Treeleaf assures you he will look at it in more detail later.
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: Wanchnn on Fri, 04 June 2021, 12:33:32
nice board and I’m in , glwic  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] LL 305K - Update : prototype is in !
Post by: Grant-GG on Mon, 26 July 2021, 09:21:39
I saw LL 305K being assembled in mechkeys discussion, can you post a typing test?
Can't wait!