Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2488194 times)

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Offline ljosa

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3400 on: Sat, 16 November 2024, 20:35:59 »
See NathanA's recent postings on the Deskthority project thread for the test Vial scumnc firmware.

Thanks, Ellipse, that firmware seems to be working fine for my scumnc F62, including the installation script! Anything in particular you'd like me to test, so you can include it in the official distribution?

Leaving breadcrumbs to the post and file here for others: https://www.deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=521443#p521443 and http://www.newfxx-firmware.nconx.com/download/newfxx-vial_f62scumy_r5p2b1.zip

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3401 on: Sat, 16 November 2024, 21:48:35 »
Great!  Please do share your feedback here and on the DT project thread to make sure the firmware is functional and that each key is detected and works well.  I can copy your message if you are not on DT.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3402 on: Mon, 18 November 2024, 21:29:59 »
Here's a nice and quick review and photo from a user on reddit.  The photo compares the Model F to the original Model M keyboard.  The case dimensions are exactly the same but the Model M looks bigger due to the camera angle with the Model M keyboard being in front of the Model F.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1gp4ehm/super_impressed/

And a nice photo from reddit user Phil_Goodman, with the F104 in Industrial Gray and a 48 inch computer monitor!

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F5jieczsuz5zd1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D2655%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3De6aa14adcfc51b48c354e468f844c9e381f297d7
https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/1gkkywi/modern_model_ms_and_fs_side_by_side_pictures/

One more photo and review - this one has a red Panic button from Unicomp installed in the Esc key position:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1gbghm2/my_model_f_buckling_spring_keyboard_finally/
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 November 2024, 21:44:30 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3403 on: Tue, 19 November 2024, 20:08:06 »
Chyrosran22 has just released the trailer!  It is a wild video!


Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3404 on: Wed, 20 November 2024, 19:23:41 »
See NathanA's recent postings on the Deskthority project thread for the test Vial scumnc firmware.

Thanks, Ellipse, that firmware seems to be working fine for my scumnc F62, including the installation script!

[...]

Leaving breadcrumbs to the post and file here for others: [snip]

Uh, guys...I literally also posted about this scumyc test firmware not just on DT but also on this same thread here at GH, just a few posts above all of this chatter.  :rolleyes: No need to post breadcrumbs...I included all of the same links and details here already.

Anything in particular you'd like me to test, so you can include it in the official distribution?

I am still looking for somebody with a regular, NON-scumyc F62 to flash this test firmware to their board, to make sure that I didn't somehow break regular F62 support when I added the scumyc option.

I do thank you for confirming that scumyc support works properly, though (2nd positive report I've received).
« Last Edit: Wed, 20 November 2024, 19:26:23 by NathanA »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3405 on: Wed, 04 December 2024, 21:06:32 »
The latest air shipment from the factory arrived this week (the final beam spring keyboard samples were excellent and everything was approved for production today!).  Here are some of the Model F items:

Some more Model F JIS, Russian Hebrew English, and Hebrew English sets arrived.  All orders will now be fulfilled with the new production sets.  Everyone please let me know if there are any other sets you'd like to have made.  Email me for details.

The Apple/Mac F1-F15 key sets arrived.
« Last Edit: Wed, 04 December 2024, 21:29:50 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3406 on: Sat, 07 December 2024, 13:36:18 »
Here is the new Chyrosran22 F104 unboxing video!


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3407 on: Sun, 08 December 2024, 03:14:32 »
There was some discussion about making a new Model F Unsaver.

The thing is that you'd need a new top case mold for each additional design which is quite costly.  The bottom can be stamped like with the F104/FSSK/F122, which would not require a mold.  The alternative is a flat case like for the compact models, which would not work for such a tall model as the unsaver or F122.

So far we have requests for the following which can be made with compact cases, probably 25 to 50 minimum order quantity at a $399 price:

Ergodox Style Split Ortho with Leyden Jar controllers (one USB cable and second keyboard half connected to the first half)
4x12 ortho Model F (Planck style)
5x12 ortho Model F (Preonic style)
6x12 ortho Model F
F20 num pad

Requests for die cast only cases (needs around 150-200 minimum order quantity for a $399 keyboard cost, unless some folks chip in for the tooling):

Unsaver

Please do reply with any other popular requests that you think can reach the minimum order quantity!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3408 on: Sun, 08 December 2024, 17:05:30 »
Please do share:  how do you reinstall and reseat Model F springs when the flipper is installed in the keyboard?

Please let everyone know your techniques, tools used, and recommendations.  Toothpick with one end trimmed down?  Chopstick?  A certain type of tweezers?  A small screwdriver with magnet and with the end trimmed off a bit?

Some folks have trouble reinstalling the springs.  Of course it is relatively easy with the flipper not installed - just align the end in the proper 12 o'clock position and push the spring on the flipper by hand.

Here is my view:  Model F springs really need to be pushed down all the way onto the nub for best results, and the tweezers should be gripping closer to the bottom of the spring like in the hour-long setup video so that the spring is not bent.  You should have a firm grip on the spring.  A loose grip means the tool is more likely to slip and permanently damage the spring as you are installing it.  If anyone is breaking springs while trying to install them then they are not being installed as shown in the setup video, which remains my preferred way to install the springs. 

And here is the relevant portion of the manual with my recommendations:

This point and the following few points describe how to remove and re-seat springs, which is the main way to fix keys that are not working well.  Our next step is to remove and re-seat any loose/non-working keys. Regarding re-seating springs, in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key. Reattach the key as shown in the hour-long setup video linked above, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the spacebar row up).  After reinstalling the spring, be sure to carefully reinstall the keycap; I like to do this step slowly to make sure that the spring is correctly positioned inside the key because if you are pushing in the key too fast, it may bounce the spring out of place.

Often re-seating a key is not enough to make the key work or to reduce or eliminate a buzzing sound when a key is pressed, and you need to remove and reattach the spring as shown in the QC secrets video. I have found that carefully removing and flipping the spring upside down can fix most spring issues, and replacing the spring with another spring is a last, but often necessary step. Springs must always be removed with a gentle twisting motion (it should come off easily – otherwise you’re twisting the wrong way), never pulled straight up. Twist counterclockwise looking at the spring straight down, like in the below picture. Springs should always be put back by pushing them straight without twisting, as shown in the setup video.  Be sure to press the spring all the way down onto the nub of the flipper so that the spring is tightly secured on the flipper.  The goal is (1) to have the spring be about 1mm above the 12 o’clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way, and (2) have the end of the spring in the 12 o’clock position relative to the flipper, as pictured below. If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o’clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.

Offline pupmonster

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3409 on: Sat, 14 December 2024, 14:48:16 »
Is there a definitive way to determine which vial firmware to flash to "older" fssk and f77 keyboards which flashed with QMK and which were manufactured and purchased prior to those that were flashed with VIAL? I am seeing different versions of the same file:

QMK-layout-files/firmwares/newf77-vial-0p4p1_r4.hex
QMK-layout-files/firmwares/newf77-vial-0p4p1_r5.hex

QMK-layout-files/firmwares/newfssk_r2-vial-0p4p1_r4.hex
QMK-layout-files/firmwares/newfssk_r2-vial-0p4p1_r5.hex


I definitely wish to avoid the manual reset operation should I choose the wrong one.

Thanks!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3410 on: Sat, 14 December 2024, 15:21:15 »
From what you are noting it is clear that you did not read the manual fully.  As noted there, you should never be flashing hex files directly.  Please only follow what is written in the manual - there is a step by step guide there.

There is almost never a need for a manual reset, even if you flash different firmware.  The pandrew utility can enter the bootloader for all of the firmware files in the zip file in the manual.

Offline pupmonster

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3411 on: Sun, 15 December 2024, 05:14:34 »
Thanks for the response. From the manual:

"There are many files to choose from, so you’ll have to determine which one to pick based on the keyboard you have, which is easy.  For example, “f104 r2 ansi HHKB Split Backspace.bat” refers to the Round 2 Model M style F104 keyboard with ANSI style Enter, HHKB style split right shift, and Split Backspace.  If you do not successfully follow the above steps or forget to click Enter Bootloader, you will continually see the “waiting for keyboard” message while the bat file is running."

The scripts appear to read the version from the EEPROM that will later be used in the script for the flashing. It would appear that this protects me from making the most egregious error.

So the only risk in choosing the wrong file would be getting a wonky layout that does not match my physical keyboard, correct?

There would be no risk in "bricking" the keyboard should I mistakenly choose the wrong file, correct?


Offline Rico

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3412 on: Sun, 15 December 2024, 11:10:36 »
Hello everyone, this is Rico!

With Ellipse acknowledgment please let me share the current status and future work of the Leyden Jar controller here.

First I'd like to apologize for my lack of presence in this forum; internet is a time killer and I try as much as possible to optimize my free time with my family and hobbies (like working on the Leyden Jar).
With no hard commitments I'll try to have a bigger presence on this forum in the future.

As you may know, future Ellipse's F122, B122 and B104 keyboards will use the Leyden Jar controller in place of our good old XWhatsIt controller.
I am thrilled to see my little project to be used in a large scale project like this (and a bit intimidated) and hope that you, the future users of those keyboards, will be happy of the result.
Most of my time is now focused of ironing out a few things here and there in the firmware code side, once this task will be done I may be able to work on new features (discussed below).

I'd like to mention user idollar that has been the third person after Ellipse and me to manufacture and use the Leyden Jar controller for it's own projects.
This means a lot to me as it shows that the project is mature and easy enough for other people to use.
He was also able to make the Leyden Jar Diagnostic Tool work on Linux with a bit of dirty hacking in the build scripts. This demonstrated that the tool code is cross-platform as I hope it would be, and that the only thing missing is to work on the build scripts to have a clean Linux support (more on that below).

Work done

Github projects architecture

The Leyden Jar project is distributed into three different Github repositories:

  • The Leyden Jar controller here.
  • The Leyden Jar Diagnostic Tool here.
  • My fork and dedicated branch of Vial QMK here.
I recently reworked the Leyden Jar controller Github repository so that it is now the central hub to all other Github repositories used in the project.
That means you now have to only know the link to the Leyden Jar controller and have access to all other related projects and links from it's readme.
I also added a Ko-Fi button, in case you want to fund past and future developments of this project.

Keyboard firmwares

Currently supported boards are:

  • F122 (tested by Ellipse)
  • B122 (tested by Ellipse)
  • B104 (tested by Ellipse)
  • F104 (tested by Ellipse)
  • F77 (tested by me on my own board).

The Leyden Jar controller Github project no longer contain the firmware source code, everything is now available in the dedicated branch of my Vial QMK Fork.
My Vial QMK fork also contains releases of firmwares binaries for supported keyboards.

The future

We will about to end this year 2024 so this is a list of what is planned for year 2025.

Port other keyboards to be used by the Leyden Jar controller

The Leyden Jar controller share the exact same principles as the XWhatsIt controller. Sure it is an improvement on several points but nothing that a keyboard user should notice by typing.
I am very often calling the Leyden Jar 'an XWhatsIt on steroids' :)

The XWhatsIt controller has been in use for more than 10 years now, it has proven to be very reliable and many people have a board with this controller and experience no issues at all.
With the fantastic work that NathanA did to use Vial it is now also very user friendly.

But at some more or less distant future there will be no way to produce XWhatsIt controllers because the ATMEGA controllers will be unavailable.

This is a long term project and there is no big urgency.

Split keyboard management

The connector used for driving the solenoid could also be used to implement the UART serial protocol commonly used on QMK for split keyboards.
There is a plan to validate the approach using some of my Leyden Jar controllers and by designing a PCB testing jig.
The goal of the testing jig would be:

  • Mimick key presses that the controller would recognize.
  • Have the controller slotted in it and not soldered.
  • Not having to desolder my F77 again, the ribbon cable has seen enough abuse from having to change two different revisions of the Leyden Jar controller already.

Maybe in the future design a new controller resivion that would allow both UART and solenoid to be used at the same time?

PS2 protocol management

This one will be tough and I do not know if it will work in the end.
People requested this for quite a long time, be able to use Model F or beamspring boards with an old computer that only has legacy PS2 connectivity.
A daugherboard PCB has been designed and even manufactured by me but still not tested yet.
The testing jig described before will also come handy for this project.
The holy grail goals of this feature:

  • PS2 connectivity while keeping QMK as core firmware.
  • When connected with USB the keyboard works just like any VIA/Vial keyboard and you would be able to tweak your layers/macros/keys.
  • When connected with PS2 the keyboard uses all VIA/Vial configuration (layers/macros/keys) but sends PS2 compatible key data.

This will request some deep dive in QMK source code to see if it can be done, and some subtle hacks if proven to be possible.

Leyden Jar Diagnostic tool documentation

The first time I provided the tool to Ellipse I did an experiment: I gave him no guidance on how to use it and asked if things were not clear to him.
He has been able to use the tool without the need of documentation and without asking me questions so it's use looks to be trivial enough.
Anyway I still think that some explanation should be nice, at least in the readme of the Github repository.

Leyden Jar Diagnostic tool Linux build

For the moment builds of this tool are for Windows systems only but idollar showed that having the application on Linux was possible.
This is where I need help as I am a Windows only developper.
That would be great if some of you that have knowledge of CMake build scripts (or are willing to learn) and is a Linux user could do some clean work on the CMake file for everyone to easily use the tool on Linux platform.
It may not be possible to provide one day binaries for Linux (it is such a fragmented platform with all it's distributions), but having an easy way to call CMake then build and having the tool binary would already be great.
If someone is interested to tackle this task please tell me, either here or DM me !

And why not also MAC if someone wants to address this?

That's all guys!
It was a loooooong post, sorry about that.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3413 on: Sun, 15 December 2024, 13:03:51 »
A big congratulations are in order for Rico's great success with the Leyden Jar controller!

Everyone please do let Rico and me know if you are interested in helping contribute to any of Rico's 2025 development areas for the open source Leyden Jar controller. 

The highest priority is getting one controller to power and communicate with the other controller so that only one USB cable is needed as I would like to start the next round of the Split Ortho F keyboards which were all spoken for in the first run of those boards with two USB cables (as a note there was no issue sharing function layers and shift states between boards on Mac/OS/Unix thanks to NathanA's firmware).

Yes pupmonster, I have actually never seen such a report so you should be fine as long as you follow the manual step by step.

Regarding the solenoid and UART functioning at the same time, here was a proposal sent to me:

Move SOLENOID_ENABLE to GPIO26, SOLENOID_PULSE to GPIO27, COL16 moves to GPIO28, and COL17 moves to GPIO29, and then have a firmware version that allows for the UART and Solenoid at the same time without sacrificing the solenoid.

The UART would run on GPIO28 and GPIO29 and it would take away columns 16 and 17 for firmware variations that require UART, while these columns would be normal keyboard matrix columns in all other firmware versions not requiring UART.

These columns 16 and 17 could both be connected to the through holes at the bottom and also to the expansion header (maybe the expansion header would need to be 4x2 or 5x2 instead of 3x2 or larger to accommodate the 4 wires needed for UART and power, or there would be a separate 2x2 header for UART).

This way you can sacrifice 2 columns to have both the solenoid and UART with split keyboards, and with the same controller you can also choose to have those 2 extra columns and the solenoid if you do not require the UART."
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 December 2024, 13:07:37 by Ellipse »

Offline Rico

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3414 on: Sun, 15 December 2024, 14:11:39 »
Thank you Ellipse!

To be honest the biggest help for a Linux noob like me would be someone to look at the Linux build of the Leyden Jar diagnostic Tool.

This proposal for solenoid and UART at the same time is perfectly legit.
I see that someone carefully studied the Leyden Jar schematics and read the RP2040 datasheet to do this proposal.
Now there is the problem of firmware fragmentation with two different PCB revisions to support, but I may have a solution for that :p


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3415 on: Tue, 17 December 2024, 01:31:55 »
Over the years I have taken great interest in collecting and restoring consumer products and tools that are decades old, sometimes even about 100 years old, and still working just as well as the day they were made, including old electric Telechron / General Electric clocks, Western Electric rotary phones (candlesticks and 300-series phones), and of course the great IBM keyboards which led me to join these forums ten years ago.  The main things they had in common were that they were built extremely well and these companies produced tons and tons of spare parts to keep their products running, what I aim for with the reproduction boards.  For example the ancient metal framing square that I use for this project was in bad shape, completely rusted, but a vinegar bath brought it back to like new condition, and I am confident it can last for many more decades.

I have been having some interesting discussions over email with a number of folks about the battle between the competing ideologies of buy it for life, right (and responsibility) to maintain/repair etc. vs. the standard big company one-year unlimited warranty, planned obsolescence, and everything is done for you.  While folks will disagree with one or the other stances, I offer my perspective in the writeup below, which has been added to the FAQ section on the product pages to help potential newcomers to the project.  How can we get more non-disposable products into the world where appropriate?


"Is this type of keyboard right for me?  More than 6,000 new Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped to fans around the world in the past decade, but what am I really getting into here?  Why would any keyboard require setup and maintenance?  What should I expect?  Am I willing to sacrifice some of my time to set up and maintain a keyboard that people have believed is worth maintaining for over 40 years, unlike nearly every other computer product that has come and gone?

Just as people have been doing for the past four decades with these keyboards on their own, for most things that come up you are expected to fix them.  I am well aware this is not the standard attitude of manufacturers which sell you a short warranty, prevent you from maintaining your products afterwards, and want you to keep buying their products every few years after the previous one stops working. My goal with this product is that you buy it for life, tell your friends/family/coworkers about the project, and buy spare repair parts so if the project disappeared tomorrow you could still maintain and repair your keyboard 10 or 20 years from now.  A key or spring not working?  Take out your key puller!  The good thing is that this is probably the most repairable mainstream, industrial-quality keyboard out there in widespread use and almost everything is easy to fix with nothing more than a screwdriver, key puller, tweezers, and pliers.  Every single fix is spelled out with a step-by-step manual and video guide geared towards complete beginners.

A major part of the project philosophy is that you need to be self-sufficient and follow the manual which provides step-by step instructions, instead of trying to do things another way, and you agree to abide by the terms of this project in order to receive service in the event that something is not right (mainly you have to do the troubleshooting steps in the manual as the project doesn’t have the resources to hire folks to walk everyone through the manual on a one-on-one basis, and I am extremely busy coordinating the project and mailing out the order backlog (I’ve QCed and mailed out 6,000 keyboards and thousands of parts orders!).

This is not a hobbyist or kit project; the keyboard is fully assembled and every key position is tested, but there’s an exception: the user has to follow the step-by-step instructions to put on the keycaps and adjust any keys that are not working, and follow the other step by step instructions in the manual. The manual should not scare anyone; it includes every possible issue that could come up with the keyboard and the step by step way to fix it. Most folks only need a very small part of the manual, to install keycaps and adjust a few springs to get things fully working (it may take longer to go through the manual than to do the actual setup!).  You won’t be left with a non-working keyboard if you follow the manual; the last step if the steps in the manual do not fix an issue is to contact me and I will help.  To read more about the project philosophy, see the manual linked above.

To keep the cost of these keyboards as low as possible for people all around the world (so far to more than 70 countries!), and to avoid the need to charge everyone a lot more to pay for frequent mail-in repair service as with other products (think those $300 to $500 in-home or mail-in service warranties for prebuilt computer systems, etc.), this project has a different philosophy which empowers the end user to take responsibility for following the manual to set up and maintain their keyboard, instead of having others do the work for you; by ordering any item from this site you agree to abide by the project’s terms and conditions at the bottom of the home page and during checkout. One example is that this project’s concept of something being damaged or defective may be different from other standards, and you agree to accept these differences.  For example, these products will come not completely working out of the box because you have to install the keycaps and set things up, which includes actions such as adjusting parts that are not perfect and exactly in place, including keys and springs. You don’t get to send everything back for someone else to do the work shown in the manual.  Instead, you would go through the manual fully and contact me if the steps do not resolve the issue. Another example: all items sold here are made with cosmetic defects which are considered acceptable, such as surface variations for die cast and injection molded parts, minor paint chipping over time, and other things that you might just as likely see on the original IBM keyboards but not with other products.  These defects have been vastly reduced with the later production rounds, however, so do not look to posts from years ago and judge the other 5,999 keyboards and later production rounds based on a few examples.

What attitude should I avoid?  You can’t have the attitude “I won’t do what’s in the manual and I expect you to take it back and do the work for me.” It goes against everything explained here and it is why you have to agree to the terms and conditions before placing any order.  This includes performing the troubleshooting steps that you are instructed to do, such as reseating and adjusting springs and other parts. If someone else is doing this work for you, you won’t become confident enough to be able to fix and maintain the board in the future and it will end up in a landfill, which is what I don’t want. This is not some product that is fully set up for you, just power it on and take it to the repair shop only for the duration of the one year warranty, and then get rid of it and buy the latest model when it breaks because of planned obsolescence and because it is not economical to repair.  Do not try to come up with creative solutions to fix issues described in the manual; just follow each step in the manual which addresses every possibility including the last step that you need to email me, as a last resort, for support for something that is bad.

What if I am nervous? It is ok to not be confident about some parts of the manual especially if these types of keyboards are new to you, but once you learn it all becomes quite easy and it may only take you seconds or minutes to fix something in the future. No experience is needed to work on these keyboards.  Over the years people have told me exactly this, so you should not worry, as long as you can follow along a step by step guide while being able to use a screwdriver, tweezers, pliers, and a key puller. If you’re unwilling to do what’s in the manual then you’ll have to ask a friend or family member for help as I can’t guide you.  It’s not as difficult as programming the VCR, I promise!"
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 December 2024, 16:05:54 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3416 on: Sat, 21 December 2024, 17:15:46 »
The Chyrosran22 review has been posted for the new Model M case style F104 Model F Keyboard!


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3417 on: Sun, 22 December 2024, 22:40:06 »
Recently I was discussing the nature of this project some more on other forums.  I am surprised that this has become a relatively lively discussion once more, about how scary the phrase "some assembly required" is to some folks these days.  I've always been used to putting together furniture, building computers from parts, and restoring vintage stuff to working condition so I do not associate high end with "no assembly required, maintenance-free."  For some things the whole point is in the joy of assembly (remember Lego bricks, K'NEX, Erector Set, Capsela, Lincoln Logs, etc.)

The new Model F project is here for the primary objective of creating lifelong Model F users who are confident enough to spend some time to set up and maintain these keyboards, not people who are used to a maintenance-free product that is discarded because no one knows how to fix it, and then it ends up in a landfill. Those folks may better be served with another product and there is no issue with discouraging folks who cannot adjust their outlook to match that of the project.

As was stated in the Project Management Triangle that I have brought up before, everyone would like products to be good, fast, and cheap but those are all opposing forces. To hire workers to assemble and mail orders faster would entail a higher cost. To set up keyboards for everyone (make it "good" for some perspectives) would require a higher cost. To keep the cost low, compromises have to be made and the biggest barrier to this project for most folks is the original $800 cost that IBM charged (adjusted for inflation). The first compromise was "fast" (speed) in that the project is essentially hand assembled with the help of some custom machines but with no expensive pick and place machines for keycaps, etc. Nothing matters if you are happy with the idea of a product that is high quality and fully ready to go, gets to you fast, has free tech support and no maintenance, if you can't afford it to begin with because it has IBM's price tag that was required to maintain all of IBM's fixed costs including automated installation machines, assembly workers, and support personnel. I will continue to remain steadfast in the project philosophy choosing high quality products at the lowest possible price for the most part, in order to maximize the number of folks who can experience a Model F, while trying to set expectations with folks who don't want to learn how to keep their keyboard working for life.

A suggestion about asking a US-based keyboard factory such as Unicomp to perform all of the setup labor for everyone highlights that some posters may not understand the differences between these two types of keyboards and about the nature of the opposing forces mentioned above. The Model M has zero parts that are shared with the Model F, with one exception:  not even the springs and keycaps are the same, though the keys are compatible.  The Model M I believe has a custom-made assembly jig that installs the keycaps, which would be cost prohibitive to remake and configure for the dozens of different keyboard layouts available on the Model F as opposed to the 4 layouts of the Model M (SSK and full size, ANSI and ISO for each).  In other words these other factories would have to install keys by hand, so there are no savings with automation.  This suggestion would only increase the cost of these keyboards because each person getting a keyboard would have to pay extra for someone to do the setup work for them.  The only other alternative is to cheapen the quality of the keyboard to free up some of the cost to pay for assembly, which is not something I'd like to do.  Unfortunately we just have to admit that there is not as large of a market for very high quality goods any more compared to what IBM was able to mass produce with their IBM PC's in the 1980s.  Even IBM admitted this as they eventually had to discontinue / spin off their buckling spring keyboard operations when the market changed in the 1990s.  Eventually some product's one-year support warranty will run out and then you'd be in the same place as you are when you get a Buy It For Life Model F keyboard, but with one difference:  you wouldn't necessarily know how easy it is to repair the keyboard so you remain too timid to keep that key puller and tweezers handy for a quick maintenance fix.

It seems like those willing to install a few keycaps for a Model M would be perfectly at home with the Model F, which would require no different skill set from what would be expected of you as a Model F user, except you'd need more time to install the keys yourself and you may need to spend a few minutes moving some springs back into place. It sounds scary but it is not; the video in the manual shows that it is an easy process that can be learned.

How many folks are willing to pay $575 and wait several extra weeks for an already costly $400 keyboard just to have a US-based warehouse to install the keys and adjust some of the springs, if some springs and keys still need adjustment after shipping anyways?  Either way outside of service professionals making house calls you would end up in the same place as you are now.

The project has had zero changes in this philosophy for the past 8 years and 5,000+ people who have supported the project - everyone has had to set up their keyboard, whether or not the keys were preinstalled. Every now and then a discussion comes up where some folks are surprised that they have to install keycaps or perform small maintenance to keep their keyboard running. To those who have been maintaining and collecting original Model F keyboards, the need for some small maintenance is definitely no surprise and it is in line with my own experience. I've had to completely disassemble and reassemble my original Model F keyboards, sometimes more than once.

Having to install keys is not buried, it is noted on the home page and on every product page. Very few folks think that it is the most important thing about a keyboard as many other high end keyboards have their keycaps separately bagged.

In summary, I feel the project's current stance on factory assembling as much as possible (everything but the keys and accessories), requiring everyone to learn how to set up and maintain their keyboards for life, and keeping the keyboards at less than half the cost of what IBM charged were the most important priorities that were achieved with this project. 

So far I am unconvinced that the project could sustain even higher costs that would have to be passed on to each end user, or that volumes would increase so much from advertising these keyboards as having the keycaps pre-installed that the project would be able to recoup the additional costs by having a higher quantity of keyboards ordered.  As some may recall, a couple hundred boards from the very first batch of some keyboard models had pre-installed blank keycaps with the factory adjusting key and spring seating where needed.  In addition to the factory needing an extra month or two to perform this labor by hand, thus delaying the entire container shipment, these keyboards still needed some adjustment of springs and keys after they arrived off the container ship to me, and certainly some other keys fell out of place while in the final leg of transit from me to the end user.  The time to adjust these keys even with a preinstalled board was not sustainable when trying to mail out a couple thousand boards and it resulted in everyone's boards taking longer, both for the factory to install them and for me to test and adjust each key and move through the backlog.  For this reason I don't think installing keycaps is likely to reduce the need for any user setup and maintenance.  I don't see a "maintenance-free" Model F as possible without additional compromises around cost and/or quality or a network of repair folks like IBM had when they rented the 4704 Model F keyboards to bank branches.
« Last Edit: Mon, 23 December 2024, 04:28:20 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3418 on: Sat, 28 December 2024, 01:07:47 »
History of the IBM PC and IBM PS/2

The IBM PC turned 43 years old this year!  Here is a nice article from Techspot posted recently:

https://www.techspot.com/article/2914-legends-ibm-pc/

IBM's innovations are fascinating.  The article notes that they sold 750,000 PC's in the first two years - that is a lot of Model F keyboards! 

Does anyone have documentation on the original IBM PC 5150 (XT style) keyboard pricing?  Not for the 5150 clone boards.

The F122 originally sold for $295 in 1984, or $895 in today's dollars per the IBM announcement notice:  https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcements/archive/ENUS184-040

Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3419 on: Sat, 28 December 2024, 21:39:01 »
New Model F FSSK R2 review. Plus suggestions/tutorial to fix some of the weaker points. Also reviewing the overall new Model F project.




- Keycaps/switches

Mechanically, the keyboard quality is 10/10. The switch/keycap quality is indistinguishable from the original IBM ones, and it’s compatible with them.

1-2 spring popped out during the shipping and got lost, so I thought. But later I found them buried within the packing material. I still bought extra switch components, for any future repairibiliy I may run into.

For popping the springs back, you likely wont need to open the whole keyboard just:
1) pop off the keycaps
2) Have an overhead lights and shine into the barrel, so you can actually see where you would need to put the spring back
3) Have flat headed tweezers and grab the spring in about 2/3 or 3/4 of the length
4) Make sure the top end part of the spring coil is looking roughly 12 a clock. You don’t need to be super precise, but the closer you are the better chance for proper buckling.
4) Try to aim for the pin on the flipper within the barrel, and slowly lower the spring to it.
5) Without letting the tweezers go, carefully compress the spring fully a few times with the remaining 1/3 or ¼ part. As if you would simulate a bounce a few times.
6) Done, the spring is now fully installed.

- Scratchy keycaps
If you run into this, it’s very normal imho, and the reason you likely never felt this with the old IMB keyboards, that they are worn down already.

The new keycaps may have imperfections from the manufacturing process. To overcome the scratchiness faster then wearing them down, is to feel with your nail the bottom edges around your keycaps that goes into the barrels. If you notice any burr, use a sharp knife and carefully shave them off. This should solve all related issues.

Once installing your keycaps back, make sure to press them around all edges and if you still experience scratching somewhere, take them off and its time for some more burr-shaving.

- Electonics

I will deep dive into here, because I had the most issues here.

The worst part of the keyboard is the electronics design imho. The xwhatsit controller PCB is solid enough, but the capacitive PCB is the root of many issues and glitches this keyboard has, I believe. If there are no issues with the electronic communication from the capaticive PCB to the controller, it is very unlikely that one would experience glitches. Also, Joe wouldn’t have a dedicated, long manual area about mitigating these issues, if this would be experienced by only handful of people. If the electronics was done right, none of the people should experience communication issues. The switch mechanic is dead simple. As long it buckles and the flippers do their job, this should be the case imho.

Electronics repairability is difficult to impossible, if you don't have required tools, knowledge, and dexterity. I’m not an expert on soldering by any means, but not a newb either, and had multiple issues I needed to overcome.

It's a two layer of PCB, so there are traces over the top and bottom of it.

Soldering the top layer of the PCB is not too bad.

But using the "adding a bit extra solder" method, as stated in the manual is probably not going to work for the bottom layer. The solder would need to dribble down the hole and spread around, to form a solid connection across both trace ends. Which is likely not going to happen.

Using the diagnostic tool to identify physical communication issues with the electronics paths is like scratching your stomach while having a back itch.

The best is to break down the electronics areas to individual logical parts. I'm a software developer, so I'm a believer of tight separation of concerns, when troubleshooting, if you need to make sure you're successful.

1) The capacitive PCB

I had several continuity / soldering issues over multiple points. Many letters and columns haven’t worked at all, left tab, shift, ctrl, etc. Also the connection wires are very short and stiff, making it difficult to troubleshoot the whole thing. My F50 had connection issues too (although not as extensively), which I had also fixed since.

This all could have been avoided, if we would simply have those "Card Edge/Pad Card" beefy rectangular edge traces on the capacitive PCB, like implemented to IBM beamspring keyboards, and use them to directly slide on the controller PCB:



But fear not, I have suggestions how we can improve the current design, without involving way too much work.

Fortunately the hole distance is exactly 2.54mm, so we can solder right angled header pins, to the controller and capacitive PCB. Then we can connect each other with cables. This has many flexibility and advantages. One of the greatest one is, that we can now very easily separate the components from each other, and troubleshoot or upgrade them individually:



Try to not push the pins into the PCB all the way, but only until they reach the full thickness of the PCB. So now you'll still have enough space and material from the pins to work with.

These pins will not interfere with assembling and disassembling the keyboard components, I made sure to measure. They will not make contact with the steel parts either, so this mod wont cause shorts. The only thing you need to do after, is to bend the pins upward slightly, so the steel hooks from the keyboard plate will not interfere with the wire connections, under them:



There is just enough space to implement all this on controller too, and fit the connectors cables, so presumably this should be an Ultra Compact Model F compatible improvement too:



There is just enough space to implement all this on controller too, and fit the connectors cables, so presumably this should be an Ultra Compact Model F compatible improvement too:




You can tidy and move the extra cables around as you see fit:



But personally I ended up mounting the controller PCB in 180degrees, since I have plenty of top space at the FSSK, and I can just shove all the extra cables into the empty areas:



(yes, mounting the detachable USB connection to the case, is a project for another day. For now it will just dingle outside)

After we got the pins soldered to PCB, the next task is to make 100% sure the capacitive PCB traces properly conduct electricity everywhere. Make sure you even attempt to move pins around a bit, to make sure continuity/soldering is rock solid. There are no designated testing points on the PCB unfortunately, but we can make some ourselves by carefully scratching off the soldering mask with a sharp knife:



We can now use one end of a multi-meter on each of these testing points, and the other end of the multi-meter on each pins to check continuity.

Ideally, you will never ever need to take the keyboard's inner assembly apart or the keycaps off, in case you need to do further electronics repairs, because you made sure that all electric paths from the pins to capacitive PCB is rock solid.

The row holes are easier to solder, and are located on the bottom part of PCB. The column holes are on the top, and are somewhat reachable without disassembling the whole keyboard. Although, I highly recommend not soldering and testing it assembled, you'll only get flustered.

Some of the column pin holes are very finicky, and actually split to two different trace directions, so you need to make sure you check continuity on both, like the #24th for instance:



#29 doesn’t seems to be connected to anything while I inspected the capacitive PCB, but according to the manual it supposed to be ground. So I connected it to ground. Perhaps it’s not going to help, but for sure not going to hurt either.

I discovered this multi-directional trace continuity issue when I had all the right angle pins installed already. No way I’m going to take all this off, so I just slightly bent the pins upwards a bit more to fit under them with the soldering iron. The trace was mangled up it seems at one area, or cracked? I never could produce a solidly consistent connection with soldering. So, I rather scratched up a healthy part of the trace and padded the cracked / mangled up parts with a copper wire. That finally seems to have fixed all the remaining spotty connection issues:



Many of the Model F manual instructions were useful, but some aren't. Like the PCB descriptions and images should be keyboard specific imho and much more detailed. Also I have trouble making out the individual traces on those low resolution pink/blue images from the manual. I had to map them out myself instead.

On other hand, this was very useful for instance:



Tools that you will likely need are:
- Soldering Iron
- Solder
- Soldering flux
- Desoldering station (or wick, depending how much you prefer to suffer, or pay up)
- Multi-meter

2) Interconnecting wires.

Wires can be individually tested also, to make sure there is proper continuity everywhere.

Header wires can be easily disconnected and connected whenever you need to troubleshoot or upgrade something. Fear not, they actually form a super tight connection if you use these "10in a row" types of connectors, you wont have communication issues. You need to put in a good, well intended effort to take them off the pins.

Longer wires will also help in case you need to turn on the capacitive PCB with the controller to test any stuff, without assembling the whole keyboard and install keys. You can hover/lower a single flipper above a given key position, and it should produce a letter on the screen. You can also use your finger if you want, it's a capacitive PCB in the matter of fact. But you may get a bit less consistent response in this case.



3) The controller PCB.

For the controller PCB, you can test the continuity on each pin similarly as for the capacitive PCB. But you don’t need to scratch off the solder mask, but just use the connected legs of the chips or other electronic components as contact points.



In case something deeper is wrong here and you feel adventurous, you can attempt to fiddle with individual electronics components within the PCB. A tools that you want to add here to your arsenal, is a microscope, for soldering the microscopic components.

It’s also relatively easy to simply buy a whole new controller PCB instead.

- Software
Software is finally VIAL compatible, so it uses the best community project for the purpose.

Big kudos to all the community members also, who were tirelessly working on improving the software and controller hardware design over the time.

I've occasionally experienced sleep/wake exceptions with the XWhatsit controller on Windows, needing to open Driver Manager and turn off then on the related (usb?) driver to make the keyboard work again. No software/driver issues experienced at all on Linux.

I'm probably going to get and install the new Leyden Jar for myself as an upgrade, to increase the overall possible stability, hoping get it up to the "it will likely never fail" level. It's just an even more mature/modern polished design it seems, compared to xwhatsit.

But all in all, software is in great shape so far, and it will only get better from here on. I’m loving to see how the mechanical keyboard community inspired and helped each other, starting from the QMK project on Cherry MX keyboards, that more and more companies were starting to implement and rely on, instead of constantly reinventing the wheel and attempting to come up with their own proprietary software codebase.

- Keyboard Case
It is great, sturdy and has a lot of room to tinker with the keyboard and add components as we see fit. Has metallic screws and metallic threaded holes, so should be able to witstand a lot of opening and closing, in case you want to tinker around over time. I would probably add another metallic screw to the bottom center, to hold the bottom plate more evenly to the top part. But it portruding a bit more than the two other ends is not the end of the world.

Now for the whole keyboard case, even by having this very sturdy metal frame, it can still flex a tiny bit. This is actually not a bad feature, because you may find that not all feet would make a contact on the table after installing them, and the keyboard would slightly tip if you would press it.

Giving the whole case a good hard twist would fortunately ensure that those would be evened out, and it will hold that shape perfectly after, without tipping around anymore.

Paint job is decent. It did chip over some edges, and not by shipping, but for instance after I took it a part, and put the components on the table and working with them. I noticed broken off flicks of paint after.

But nothing too serious I would care about too much. Most keyboards have a much stronger formula, and you need to put in effort to chip it. Joe says this is a design choice to look more like the classic IBM keyboards. I would personally still give it a proper coating, because I am personally not looking for faithful replication, but getting a very durable, repairable, and long lasting buckling spring keyboard, with a standard layout so it's convenient and very usable with my several decades developed muscle memory.

- The new Model F project generally.

The new Model F has moddable and repairable components, metal case, capacitive bluckling spring switches, and standard layout!

The pricing is very reasonable imho, considering this is small niche product. Around 400 USD may sound like a lot for a keyboard, but search for "The Icebreaker" keyboard for instance. It costs 1,600 USD and it looks pretty awful to my tastes, plus the manufacturing is still not perfect, even while you would think everything would be for this price point.

If you want to get a capacitive buckling spring keyboard, your only other available option is to deal with the ever inflating ebay prices for the old Model F keybs, and 40 years of building up rust and wear. Plus dealing with the usb conversion, soldering, software, etc yourself.

Joe was trying to reduce this pricepoint to the minimum reasonable level so most people should by able to afford it who would want it, while focusing to maintain the best quality around the parts that really matter, like the mechanical components. This at least guarantees that in case the price is too inflated for the ebay offer, you can just get a brand new replica instead, that even have advantages compared to the old design.

All this being said, this is by far the best capacitive buckling spring keyboard I ever had! I’m eagerly waiting for my BSSK R2 too to arrive.

Any of us who are interested in capacitive buckling spring keyboards, or looking for a hard to get, or unique keycap/component that only Joe may have, is only winning from this whole project.

But it's not secret to anyone, that dealing with any areas of the buckling spring keyboards its a steep uphill battle, for a niche market at best. And it wouldn't exist in this form, or at all, if not for everyone's hard work and contributions. Thank you, you guys truly rock.

I hope my constructive contribution will help some people too, to outcome some of the harder challenges. Perhaps that they couldn't tackle so far.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 December 2024, 00:32:57 by psi.zsolt@gmail.com »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3420 on: Sat, 28 December 2024, 22:13:08 »
Nice setup and photos psi.zsolt!

Thanks for your detailed review and advice.  I hope to see more excellent posts such as yours, which definitely help the community.

Are you suggesting to file down the very bottom of the key to make it a little shorter?  "feel with your nail the bottom edges around your keycaps that goes into the barrels"

I am not sure why you had issues with multiple entire rows and columns.  I fully test every key of every row and column before shipping each keyboard, so it is quite odd that you had issues with multiple rows and columns on two keyboards that shipped months apart, while I have not seen these reports from the hundreds of other shipments this year.  Over 6,000 of these keyboards have shipped since 2019 and there are no major reports of issues with bad rows or columns, especially in the newer production boards that you have.

Your assessment of the controller and soldering is not entirely correct.  The through holes go the entire thickness of the PCB, so that you can solder both row and column PCBs without needing to take apart the keyboard.  The holes are wide enough so that solder can flow through them.  I was able to fix boards from the initial 2019 batch that had this issue without needing to take things apart most of the time.  The other times, opening up the keyboard only took a minute or so.

Card edge connectors are no longer made in large numbers (I'd need thousands) and are quite expensive, so they would add cost and complexity to the project, and would break compatibility with the thousands of keyboards that have already been produced.

One main issue with card edge connectors and the membrane type connectors like on the Model M is that the large unprotected surfaces eventually corrode; you'd have to take a pencil eraser to remove this corrosion.  Not good for reliability over many years.

The problem with header pins is that the edges of the wires used with these small connectors eventually lose their grip and cause signal reliability issues.  This has happened a number of times with the teensy original Model F soarer's converters and I've had to replace the wiring every now and then.  So far I have not seen reports of the custom made cables used for the project's 1000+ solenoids that have shipped, so it may be an issue with the increased sensitivity needed for capacitive sensing vs. actuating the solenoid, or issues with the mass-produced wires that I have used, like those in your photo.  Soldering provides the most secure, long-lasting connection. 

The PCB in your photos appears to have multiple points of damage but it seems like you noted that you took off the coating of some areas to make adjustments?  I would not recommend that.  If the damage came that way from the factory then I'd say your board was bad and I should send a free replacement with your Round 2 beam spring keyboard (let me know around mid-year if your fixes are holding up).

Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3421 on: Sat, 28 December 2024, 23:34:26 »
Quote
Are you suggesting to file down the very bottom of the key to make it a little shorter?  "feel with your nail the bottom edges around your keycaps that goes into the barrels"
I wouldn't even go that far. We just need to get rid of those slight manufacturing imperfections/burrs around the bottom parts, to make it smooth enough. In many cases, the keycaps are good out of the box anyway.

I was actually attempting to file/sand the burrs down a bit initially, but I felt that those tools tear the plastic, while you can make better, more precise efforts to smooth it out with small, sharp, targeted utility knife cuts.

Quote
The PCB in your photos appears to have multiple points of damage but it seems like you noted that you took off the coating of some areas to make adjustments?  I would not recommend that.  If the damage came that way from the factory then I'd say your board was bad and I should send a free replacement with your Round 2 beam spring keyboard (let me know around mid-year if your fixes are holding up).

The board wasn't seriously damaged I believe, only perhaps around the soldering areas where I had pad it with wires to make those columns work. Perhaps it got chipped during shipping? The box was in slightly chewed up as expected, but generally in good shape, so I'm unsure. Maybe I was just entirely unlucky with this one particular board, since you stated this is very rarely experienced by other buyers.

Those multiple small marks that I made with red pencil over those images, are intentionally made scratches by me, scraping off the solder mask, as I stated on those sections. I had no other reliable way to measure continuity with the multimeter, and make sure there is current flowing properly everywhere.

Surely a better option would be having similar continuity testing spots premade on the PCB, in case you need to troubleshoot it. But I work with what I have of course. While I don't think you will need to do this unless you need to troubleshoot the continuity, I also believe this wont cause any issues either. As long as you're careful and just scrape off the solder mask, and leave the actual traces intact as possible.

Quote
Card edge connectors are no longer made in large numbers (I'd need thousands) and are quite expensive, so they would add cost and complexity to the project, and would break compatibility with the thousands of keyboards that have already been produced.
This is a good point, thanks for the insight. Header pins/holes should be fine, in case one would want to go with similar component modularity route like I did.

Quote
The problem with header pins is that the edges of the wires used with these small connectors eventually lose their grip and cause signal reliability issues.
Personally, I think I am willing to take this risk. Since I'm planing to tinker with Leyden Jar and similar future projects. I don't think I will take them off and on many many times either way, over the keyboard's lifetime (or at very least, mine).

In case the wires become a bit loose, after many years perhaps, I can just take them off and replace them with a new one with ease, won't even need additional soldering.

But I see your point also, that if the soldering is good enough in the get go, you might as well leave it as is, because one can expect that it will likely last.

Quote
(let me know around mid-year if your fixes are holding up).
I will. I made the beefiest soldering connections everywhere at the PCB for reliability, so I'm not expecting that it would break down on me.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 December 2024, 00:10:35 by psi.zsolt@gmail.com »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3422 on: Sat, 28 December 2024, 23:37:04 »
Major project milestones:

This month the 6,000th keyboard shipped!  Six thousand!  This includes both Brand New Model F and Brand New Beam Spring keyboards. 

Also all Model M case style F104 and FSSK keyboards have shipped as of now, for orders through last month (end of November).  Now I will move on to the remaining backlog of those boards as well as orders of the other keyboard models in stock.

For orders submitted before this month (not counting recent non-Model M style keyboard orders from the past few months), please feel free to email me if you are still waiting on anything besides the keyboards not yet in stock (F122 and Round 2 beam spring keyboards). 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3423 on: Thu, 02 January 2025, 20:49:00 »
F122 update:

The factory has taken much longer than expected to finish up assembly of the F122 keyboards.  They are looking to finish up at the end of February or March due to their nearly one-month break for the new year, which starts in a couple weeks. 

There were some mistakes made with the initial assembly and the boards were improperly assembled (always most likely on the first production run of any new keyboard over the past years of this project - it takes longer until the factory becomes experienced with a particular model and future orders can be faster), so they are in the process of disassembling, inspecting, and then reassembling the F122 plates, which are a little more difficult to open and close than the other keyboards' plates, as anyone can attest who has an F122 from IBM.

Nice custom keyboard setup:
With permission I am sharing a customized keyboard "setup in progress" photo from a new Model F user who has asked that the photo be credited to his first name Mike.  I very much like the blue and pearl keycap combination, which is different from the regular all blue or pearl and pebble keycap combinations that are currently available.  Additionally this combination looks nice as installed with a True Red case.
311707-0
Photo credit:  Mike

Offline NathanA

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3424 on: Fri, 03 January 2025, 08:06:29 »
pupmonster,

Sorry I didn't see your posts earlier.

Is there a definitive way to determine which vial firmware to flash to "older" fssk and f77 keyboards which flashed with QMK and which were manufactured and purchased prior to those that were flashed with VIAL?

Just to clear up a potential misunderstanding, any keyboards that shipped out initially flashed with either the xwhatsit firmware or the non-Vial QMK firmware are 100% completely identical (physically and electrically) to keyboards that shipped out with Vial already flashed to the controller.

There is no "different version" of the Vial firmware that you should be flashing if your keyboard is currently running the original QMK firmware release.  There is also no required progression or "stages" of intermediate updates that you have to go through in order to get your keyboard on the latest firmware.  You can just immediately jump from whatever firmware you are running to the latest version.

The "r4" and "r5" are firmware version designations that I gave to each release; "r4" means "Release 4" and "r5" means "Release 5".  Release 5 is, of course, the most recent.  Ellipse apparently just left the older "r4" firmware hex files in the ZIP he distributes from his web site because the factory still needed to use them in certain situations.  Last I heard he was working to remove them from the ZIP to avoid exactly this kind of confusion (and may have already done so by this point; I haven't checked).

You will not harm anything by flashing r4 instead of r5, though you also won't be running the latest version if you do so.  There is no need to flash r4 first and then upgrade to r5 from r4; just jump straight to r5.  As Ellipse mentioned, though, you're encouraged to not directly flash hexes using QMK Toolbox or the like, but rather to rely on the flash scripts/batch files to pick the correct files for you, based on your keyboard model and what pre-configured layout you have or want to start out with.

The scripts appear to read the version from the EEPROM that will later be used in the script for the flashing. It would appear that this protects me from making the most egregious error.

Actually, no, the script just flashes whatever firmware + key layout pairing (two separate hexes: one for the firmware, one for the key layout) that the name of the script file says it will flash.  It doesn't detect anything or interrogate the keyboard controller.  Since all of the controllers that have been used on all keyboards shipped to-date are 100% identical to each other, and the same controller can be physically hooked up to and drive any of these keyboard models, nothing prevents you from flashing the "wrong" firmware for your particular keyboard model.  If that happens, though, not to worry: just launch Vial, go to Security menu > Reboot to bootloader, and run the right script/batch flasher this time around.

Also, if you flash the right firmware file for your keyboard model but the so-called "wrong" layout, that's also absolutely no big deal.  The layout that gets flashed is just the preliminary layout that the keyboard starts out with.  Without re-flashing, you can run Vial at any time to change that layout, if either you picked the "wrong" one (you picked ISO but you have your keys physically arranged for ANSI+HHKB, or whatever), or you picked the right one but later you decide to change layouts.

There would be no risk in "bricking" the keyboard should I mistakenly choose the wrong file, correct?

100% correct.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3425 on: Sun, 05 January 2025, 19:10:16 »
As the factory wraps up assembly of the F122 over the next couple months:

There were some earlier reports of a number of new Model F boxes that got beat up in shipping. I am considering a more standard "regular slotted container" double-walled cardboard box for the F122 and beam spring boards because they are so heavy. Below is one of the prototype boxes I'll be receiving soon for evaluation. (It is in rougher shape as the sample was a one-off, not the regular completely machine-made box off a production line)
311717-0
311719-1

Offline AngryC

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3426 on: Mon, 06 January 2025, 02:30:29 »
Will the B122 ship before the F122 or does it also take a bit longer?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3427 on: Mon, 06 January 2025, 12:05:27 »
Those Round 2 beam spring keyboards will not all be finished until after the F122, though the factory expects to ship a small number of Round 2 beam spring boards with the F122's, however many they have finished up to that time.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3428 on: Mon, 06 January 2025, 22:23:52 »
Project blog update:

The latest blog post has been posted on the project web site updates page:

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Please head over there for a collection of the various production updates and new reviews, photos, keyboard layouts, and key sets.

This blog covers essentially the second half of 2024 as I have been quite late with this entry as I was coordinating the container shipment and then mailing out all of the various hundreds and hundreds of orders for the new Model M style F104 and FSSK keyboards and orders of various other extras and other style Model F and Round 1 beam spring keyboards.


Stolen/missing keyboard alert:

A Model M classic case style Industrial Gray keyboard was reported stolen or missing.

Serial number 354

Please watch out for any such keyboards appearing for sale online or elsewhere and let me know right away.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 January 2025, 12:30:44 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3429 on: Wed, 08 January 2025, 12:15:53 »
F122 Update:

I have asked the factory to load the new F122 boards that are ready to ship onto a container that can go out later this month, instead of waiting for all the F122's to be completed.  They are going to try to get this done before their new year break.

This means that those who have previously ordered, plus a small number of additional orders, can possibly go out earlier than planned (the container ship is normally about 2 months, including customs processing and trucking arrangements for final delivery).

The rest of the F122's should go out in the following container shipment with the Round 2 beam spring keyboards later this year.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 January 2025, 12:19:02 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3430 on: Thu, 09 January 2025, 13:16:56 »
With permission I am sharing another unique setup - the F104 in Industrial Gray with a Big Enter key and a mix of other Wheelwriter and other keys.  The user notes that the big enter key can be installed regularly without having to remove the spring of the | \ key below the backspace (just disable the key in Vial).

This year I hope to resume the projects for the 3 additional keys (Big Enter, ISO Enter non-stepped, Code) and for the pad printed keys now that the backlog is wrapping up.
311765-0

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3431 on: Fri, 10 January 2025, 14:24:47 »
Update:

As requested, I am letting folks know that the gray USB-C cables are back in stock and are able to be ordered once more. 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3432 on: Fri, 10 January 2025, 18:16:40 »
The same person who sent me the above photo has also posted a video detailing mods they were looking to do for their new F104.

They actually designed 3d printed feet for the keyboard after considering XT style flip out feet for the F104. 


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F
« Reply #3433 on: Sun, 12 January 2025, 16:36:08 »
We have a terrific and helpful new Model F keyboard review that was just posted today. 

This is a great video to help folks make a decision if they are considering various keyboards and why the Model F is so special and unique.  It also explains the difference between QMK and Vial, and how powerful and easy to use the software customizations are for these Vial-powered Model F keyboards. 

The review also discusses the pros and cons of the new Model F keyboards, and an analysis of the pricing and value compared to other offerings on the market.


My video comment continues below:

You have a good way of explaining the different sounds that the keyboard makes, differentiating between the sound of the flipper contacting the large capacitive PCB when a key is pressed, the vibration of the spring after the key is released, and the less-desirable buzzing of a spring against the keycap, which can be quickly fixed as you mentioned.

Just a note - the F62 and F77 boards usually come with QMK but can be flashed to Vial, but you can now add an order note for me to flash the board to Vial for you, before it ships to you.  No boards shipped with Via firmware, though it was offered for a short time as an alternative firmware.  Flashing the keyboard to Vial allows everyone to adjust the keymapping and other settings without needing to reflash the firmware.

And so as not to scare anyone, the part of the video about pressing the f key as a shift is due to a custom mod of the keyboard, not the factory default behavior.  The keyboard does not ship this way; the keyboard ships with normal keys without mods so that hitting the f key sends the f signal to the keyboard as with any other key.