I also own a Rollermouse Free2, but I would not recommend it personally in terms of ergonomics, though it may depend on what kind of hand positions give you pains. While I do not have RSI myself, I find it uncomfortable to hold my hand horizontally while sliding the rollermouse bar to the side opposite the hand that operates it (i.e. sliding the bar to the left with my right hand as this strains the wrist by forcing it inward, which is something split keyboards try to avoid). I would recommend a vertical mouse or trackball instead, again depending on what kind of hand motions cause you problems.
I've looked through the forum, and I'm now a bit stuck. I've seen some of the differing opinions on the Maltron 3D vs Kinesis Advantage debate on here (e.g. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33539.0 ), and I'm also looking at the ErgoDox project.
This leaves me wondering how the ErgoDox will compare to Maltron and Kinesis. Are there any opinions on this yet? Does it make sense to wait for the PCB boards to become available for the ErgoDox and assemble everything on one's own (Is this practical for a hardware beginner? The lack of tools leaves me also wondering how much the tools would cost)?
I've gathered that kinesis has a bit of a crowded feel with its keys compared to the maltron. Is this something someone with fairly small hands would still notice, or is it really just an issue for folks with big hands? I also was thinking it shouldn't be too hard to just swap out the cherry blacks for reds on the maltron (is this a good idea, or is brown really that much of a better choice on the maltron keyboard? I have sample switches, and I like the reds quite a bit better).
I'm concerned about ergonomics 100% and everything else is just irrelevant. I've got RSI in my wrists and fingers (also my right forearm), and I'm wanting the absolute best ergonomic option to alleviate the strain from typing. I'm a programmer, so special keys are used a lot. I'm willing to learn a new keyboard layout, and I'm considering Colemak. However, if I decide to pick up a Maltron (that price burns... ugh), would it make sense to use the Maltron layout as a programmer? I can't remember where, but someone said it was more geared towards secretaries...
On a side note, I've also ordered a RollerMouse Pro (the original one, not the Pro2). The concept sounds really nice, and I'm finding my mx518 logitech is wearing on my right hand.
Am I right in assuming that DataHand is dead and not coming back? Such an interesting keyboard; what a waste.
yea like a lightly used white one, in truth ALOT of kinesis keyboards that are ebayed are lightly if barely used. why? it's a weird keyboard lol, ppl pay 300bucks in 1999 (or whatever year) go omg! this keyboard is nuts, then put it in their closet for 10 years. Now they find it, go on ebay and just put it up for auction. (you actually see this story a lot, many ebayers will put in the description why they are selling and this is like one of the top reasons, "i bought it back in... and i used it for 10minutes... now i found it again and just getting rid of it). i finally made a guide for getting deals on ebay, i put it in my sig.
Ok now I can offer a decent comparison for you...
I also purchased the Rollermouse. It's great to use with a flat keyboard, but using it with a Kinesis Advantage has been a bit of a challenge. Definitely a great device to have.
yea like a lightly used white one, in truth ALOT of kinesis keyboards that are ebayed are lightly if barely used. why? it's a weird keyboard lol, ppl pay 300bucks in 1999 (or whatever year) go omg! this keyboard is nuts, then put it in their closet for 10 years. Now they find it, go on ebay and just put it up for auction. (you actually see this story a lot, many ebayers will put in the description why they are selling and this is like one of the top reasons, "i bought it back in... and i used it for 10minutes... now i found it again and just getting rid of it). i finally made a guide for getting deals on ebay, i put it in my sig.
QuoteI also purchased the Rollermouse. It's great to use with a flat keyboard, but using it with a Kinesis Advantage has been a bit of a challenge. Definitely a great device to have.
Is it challenging because of the position of your hands when typing, or because the keys sit higher/farther away from the rollermouse than a typical keyboard? If it's a matter of the rollermouse sitting too low, couldn't one just find some way to raise it (with a book underneath or something)?
While I do not have RSI myself, I find it uncomfortable to hold my hand horizontally while sliding the rollermouse bar to the side opposite the hand that operates it (i.e. sliding the bar to the left with my right hand as this strains the wrist by forcing it inward, which is something split keyboards try to avoid).If you have pain from moving a mouse around then u already have RSI or something much worse.
-Also, the Maltron minimizes the use of the pinky finger. I hate using my pinky finger.
The Ergodox gets me rather excited as well. I love the addition of keys on the middle part of the keyboard.Me too. I have been wanting that for years.
Also, the thumb keys made a typical keyboard seem like an ancient idea.Yes! I want thumb keys!
-Also, the Maltron minimizes the use of the pinky finger. I hate using my pinky finger.
I have the worst RSI that you can have and still live to tell about it.
All my fingers cause deadly pain. But my pinkies are extra bad. The trouble is that the pinky fingers are way overused on a standard QWERTY keyboard. The pinky fingers must type the usual 3 letters + the shift keys, Control keys, OS Keys, Enter, []'\, backspace. Its crazy how much work the pinky fingers must do.
I have always wanted some kind of keyboard that let me use my pinky fingers less and my thumbs more.
For all of you with pinky issues: USE PALM KEYSWill Kinesis sell me a flat version of the Kinesis Advantage for the same price (or less) as that crazy shaped Advantage keyboard? :)
I second that suggestion. A flat, and truly split Kinesis Advantage would be awesome.
You can suggest it in this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.0) where Kinesis themselves are asking for suggestions!
For all of you with pinky issues: USE PALM KEYSWill Kinesis sell me a flat version of the Kinesis Advantage for the same price (or less) as that crazy shaped Advantage keyboard? :)
I have no desire for a keyboard shaped like that.
I just want a regular keyboard with some extra keys in the middle, and thumb keys down below the main keyboard.
Kinesis Advantage gives me almost everything I want. But they force me to learn some crazy new shape.
I like the Cherry Red switches.
I like the thumb keys.
I like the redefinable keys.
I like the footpedal option.
I like the price.
I should already own 3 of them if only if only if only they would sell me a flat version.
For all of you with pinky issues: USE PALM KEYSI imagine if you hunch while typing on this keyboard, you would look like a motorbike racer or something
Well, you could use a footswitch, or any kind of programmable USB button (even with a regular keyboard) placed south of the keyboard so you can hit it with your lower palm, or even use the inner row of the ErgoDox to shift with your index fingers.
But I'm telling you palm keys are awesome and at least on a Kinesis Advantage it's a very easy mod! (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) Not even soldering is required (read the bottom part of the linked post)!Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3392;image)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)
I'm concerned about ergonomics 100% and everything else is just irrelevant. I've got RSI in my wrists and fingers (also my right forearm), and I'm wanting the absolute best ergonomic option to alleviate the strain from typing. I'm a programmer, so special keys are used a lot. I'm willing to learn a new keyboard layout, and I'm considering Colemak. However, if I decide to pick up a Maltron (that price burns... ugh), would it make sense to use the Maltron layout as a programmer? I can't remember where, but someone said it was more geared towards secretaries...
Is it possible to add real function keys to the ergodox?
Based on this experience, I plan to get an ErgoDox with full hand case, and add palm keys too of course :-)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/kTRGM.jpg)
Does anyone have a force graph for the Goldtouch?
Or could u at least perform a Nickelometer test on your Goldtouch so I know how much force we are talking about to collapse the rubber dome?
Is it possible to add real function keys to the ergodox? (12 extra keys along the top?)
What kind of kro does ergodox have?
Cool. So its like a 40g Uniform Topre keyboard without the overinflated Topre Pricetag :DDoes anyone have a force graph for the Goldtouch?
Or could u at least perform a Nickelometer test on your Goldtouch so I know how much force we are talking about to collapse the rubber dome?
I've done it already, back in 2011. I get activation at 40g, even on the spacebar, it's pretty sweet and lighter than even red cherry switches, at least on my specimen (a 5 year old GTU-0077):
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=24530.msg465304#msg465304
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=18070.msg391098#msg391098
Not sure if this is good for RSI people, but it does look really cool.
Ergonomic Steampunk Keyboard
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
My previous-generation goldtouch bottoms out at 35 cN, but the feel is nowhere near Topre, it's almost linear.How would you describe the impact of bottoming out on GoldTouch vs. Topre?
Not sure if this is good for RSI people, but it does look really cool.
Ergonomic Steampunk Keyboard
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
To all Programmers: (hackers... the traditional sense)
What "keys" are you super concerned with and are "set in stone" about the placement, physically? I personally can't program worth a damn, so while i can "read" html and code when i have to, i don't program anything...
-_=+[{]}\|;:'",<.>/?
Not sure if this is good for RSI people, but it does look really cool.
Ergonomic Steampunk Keyboard
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
That is one hell of a classy keyboard!
Is it real? Or just a rendering?
What is the key spacing?
What kind of switches?
I saw an actual real one many years ago. It looked different than that one.
The problem with this thread is that RSI isn't a single problem - it's a vague group of symptoms with different causes.+1
Some cases of RSI are carpal tunnel - where wrist position is everything and a tent and tilt board my help (but wrist position really is a matter of skill and attention first) but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere) due to a long reach for the mouse past a numeric pad ...
Oh - and wrist rests VERY bad if you use them while typing,+99
I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)Not wanting to derail this into a vi/emacs flamefest, but why do you consider vi's commands more ergonomic than emacs' commands?
Not sure if this is good for RSI people, but it does look really cool.
Ergonomic Steampunk Keyboard
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)Not wanting to derail this into a vi/emacs flamefest, but why do you consider vi's commands more ergonomic than emacs' commands?
but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)Do u have any experience with this? Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?
due to a long reach for the mouse past a numeric pad - in which case a tenkeyless board and a trackball will help.I say put the detached keyboard in your lap where it belongs and then you can keep your numeric keypad and your mouse and your health all at the same time! :D
(And you might as well get a kb with soft cherry brown or capacitative switches.)Cherry Red is softer than Brown. So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.
I'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)I use CygnusEd and GoldEd. Their keyboard shortcuts are mostly OS Key + alpha or OS + SHIFT + alpha. I think they have multi-modifier shortcuts but they are only for exotic things that I don't use anyway.
and, ideally, a tiling windows manager like xmonad - you can get them for Windows and they get rid of a lot of mousing.I mainly use screens instead of windows so I think we are both accomplishing the same end result, more or less.
but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)Do u have any experience with this? Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?
I am asking because they tried to blame my pain on that and I surely wish that would have been the problem! A trapped nerve sounds like it could be untrapped! Then I would be cured! But they did a zillion MRIs and never found anything. Although a few of the MRIs were performed incorrectly and don't actually count.
Also, what would it take to cause pain everywhere? Could 1 trapped nerve do that? What would it take?
Cherry Red is softer than Brown. So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.
QuoteI'd also suggest that a programmer should look at using vi (or emacs with vi compatibility mode)I use CygnusEd and GoldEd. Their keyboard shortcuts are mostly OS Key + alpha or OS + SHIFT + alpha.
I mainly use screens instead of windows so I think we are both accomplishing the same end result, more or less.
They never said I had a trapped nerve. They simply said they were looking for a trapped nerve and did a bunch of MRIs over a period of years + various CT Scans.but others are trapped/inflamed nerves in the spine (with referred pain elsewhere)Do u have any experience with this? Do u know anyone where they actually found a trapped nerve in the spine/neck causing the referred pain?
God, yes - it's quite common. I had it, which is Alexander Technique fixed my RSI problem.QuoteI am asking because they tried to blame my pain on that and I surely wish that would have been the problem! A trapped nerve sounds like it could be untrapped! Then I would be cured! But they did a zillion MRIs and never found anything. Although a few of the MRIs were performed incorrectly and don't actually count.
Ok:
1. Because a trapped nerve can cause RSI doesn't mean your diagnosis was correct
2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:Doggone it. Everything is so complicated.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjjNo. You are the very first person who has ever said that to me.
Did anyone mention Alexander Technique too you?
Advice from patients is usually better than advice from a doctor.QuoteAlso, what would it take to cause pain everywhere? Could 1 trapped nerve do that? What would it take?
My belief is that once a trapped nerve is involved, almost any damn feeling of pain is possible - but hey, so not a doctor!
I would rather have a brown with a long travel to virtually guarantee not bottoming out.QuoteCherry Red is softer than Brown. So if u r going Cherry then u may as well go all the way soft.
I went for the browns because the tactile feedback comes before I bottom them out, encouraging me therefore NOT to bottom them out.
2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:That guy on Yahoo. His symptoms sound exactly like what a trapped nerve should do! I do not have his symptoms at all. I have never had any symptoms that felt like a trapped nerve (weakness, numbness, tingling).
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj
But keep in mind I have only been to around 45-50 doctors, 3 Chiropractors, and 3 or 4 physical therapists. + I have talked to who knows how many patients in waiting rooms.
I think I would need to see 100 doctors before I qualified for top secret medical advice like Alexander Technique.
Or I would like a Red with an electronic click. I could not find any option for clicky keys in my Windoze xp box. Do u know of one?
An electronic click could maybe help me not to crash the keys.
2. MRI apparantly *can" show a trapped nerve... but isn't guaranteed to, especially if the nerve isn't pinched between discs but in its normal position but trapped because it is inflamed and swollen:That guy on Yahoo. His symptoms sound exactly like what a trapped nerve should do! I do not have his symptoms at all. I have never had any symptoms that felt like a trapped nerve (weakness, numbness, tingling).
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902194406AAgNJjj
So now I am figuring I definitely don't have this pinched nerve in spine concept. But I keep an open mind. :)
The datahand site seems to have finally been updated or at least I don't remember seeing the out of stock notice on the front-facing page (I remember having to check forums elsewhere to find out they were out of stock as the website didn't seem to indicate that they weren't in stock); I also received a brief reply to an email to them basically saying they're out of stock (no more information than that though).
http://www.datahand.com/
They've been saying this for a while now, but it makes me wonder if there's now a possibility that they'll be rolling out another limited time sale (like they one they had back in... 2010 was it?). If such is the case, it makes considering ebay datahands seem like a bad idea. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions though.
I now have a rollermouse pro, a kinesis advantage LF (red cherries), and a maltron (off of ebay, but in good condition). So I'm still trying them out, but I currently really like the kinesis. The clicking noise it makes upon actuation is pretty nice too; it makes it easy to avoid bottoming out without help from a tactile switch like the browns. I still need to give the maltron a proper go, but it only just arrived today. Notably, that escape key on the Kinesis isn't friendly to my Vim usage and neither are those F keys (F1 - F12), but that's old news to anyone who's seen a picture of the keyboard, or this message board.
The rollermouse seems to relieve my hands a bit on the mouse usage, though it does feel a bit unwieldy to me still. Not a bad product.
A month ago, I tried a realforce tenkeyless topre keyboard (all 45g keys), and then a safetype. Both of them didn't really help. Actually, the realforce was a bit hard on my hands despite being so soft. Keys felt a bit heavy. The safetype was a neat idea, but the keys were awful (having to bottom out to actuate is just... bad). My cheap 15$ keyboard was snappy and rough on my hands, but it actually felt easier on my fingers than the safetype's keys.
Sounds like you're off to a flying start! Datahands from ebay might be expensive, but tend to keep their value if you find it isn't for you. You might as well wait until you've settled in with your existing boards though. Once you've adapted to a board - think about getting another one! Frequently changing boards can really help (I change mine each lunchtime).
I've got a safetype, but I can't bring myself to use it seriously. There's a study that they link to on their website - they decided to build a vertical wrist rest before continuing the study... Holding your hands in that position seems comfortable and the idea of the keyboard makes sense, but sadly it doesn't work in practice.
If you want to try something that's quite different - but still comfortable, easy to learn and relatively cheap - try the alphagrip.
This chair/arm rest device was put together by Cornell University when they did testing and development work on the Safetype Keyboard. The researchers at Cornell eventually concluded that arm rests/wrist rests are not generally recommended since they could tend to reduce the blood flow to the wrists and hands.(http://safetype.com/images/chair2B_Ergomax.gif)
Safetype is a FAIL because they keep the asymmetric staggered keys. It's bad enough in a flat split keyboard, but in a vertical one it's even more horrrible. BTW I have propped 2 Kinesis Advantage keyboards vertically to emulate a vertical keyboard, and could type very comfortably without errors on the first try. So I plan to mount the Ergodox in an almost vertical fashion.sordna you need to find something like these vice
Datahand looks really interesting. Anyone know if they are still selling these things? They have an order page up, but their sales email address bounces.
If they are having money problems they should hold a Kickstarter. There must be plenty of people out there that would support them.
Yasuo,Thanks jalitt,
Yes, black switches, and I have tremendous rsi in my fingers. It is a true testament to the Maltron design that even with blacks, this keyboard is a true joy to type on. The nice deep bowls, keys angled to my fingers, E key on the thumb, and matrix layout nearly eliminate all my finger pain, even with the blacks. I can type all day, and my fingers feel fine.
I will definitely order another Maltron with browns in the next couple of weeks though, now that I am sure the yogitype is not for me.