Religion

[DreymaR]

Consistency, is what.

You seem to view atheists as people who claim that there is really nothing in a place where the map is blank (where the religious paint in dragons, unicorns and one-footed people). But we're not. We're assuming that everything we believe so far about physics and other science is consistent with the rest of reality until we get credible indicators to the contrary.

Almost none of us claim that science won't change, thankfully, but when it comes to a lot of questions it's provided very workable answers so far. So since my understanding of the universe tells me that when a cell stops working it'll break to pieces and that's that, that's what I believe will happen. I don't see the need to paint in a dragon (in this case, an eternal soul) on the map of my understanding of the mind's workings, even if there are huge blank spots in this understanding.

At the end of the day, you can't prove that the moon isn't made of cheese but there's no need to. It's the cheese-believers that need proof, not the people who believe that the moon is a rock like other rocks we've observed in the universe in consistency with the scientifically most probably hypothesis (and who would take the witness evidence of highly trained astronauts over tin-foil wearing weirdos).

[Bollwerk]

You know that a cell breaks apart. What else do you know? Have the scientists discovered the great secret human brain yet?

You made your opinion on something you know. You made an assumption what possibly would happen based on your knowledge.

And yet you don't know how it will feel to die, to loose your consciousness in this very moment.

The thing is... the more you know about our universe, the more questions will pop up.

What's about dimensions or stuff like that. Maybe there is a world we just didn't discover yet. Maybe without cells or something like that.

Ok. We know, if we start messing physically with a brain, the person's mind or body control will change. So there must be a connection to the cells that are part of our body. Maybe everything just ends after death. Who knows.

Maybe in our last breath we're creating a mind loop which will appear for us lasting forever (you can dream 5minutes and the dream seems to last for hours). Beats me.

Don't take me wrong. Your asumption is academic and cool thought. It is at least based on something you know. That is the main difference to any other kind of religion.

As long as there is no omnipotence, there is always a possability.^^

Maybe I'm just sticking to this because of the fear of death. To be frank, I really hope, that something  cool is waiting, but I'm trying not to drown in my phantasy. It is really hard to imagine, beeing non-existent though. I think I'll just find out.

[Bollwerk]

Quite sarcastic, aren't ya? What do you belive in apart from coming up with some ****talk? Talking about arrogance...

[clickclack]

Either that or it was zapped out of nowhere by the magic guy in the clouds. Bit of a lose-lose situation really.

OMG, haahaa, my side hurts!!!

I was arguing-by-avatar

I still have no clue what that is from, still drawing a blank....

The church of those who don't know and don't care? Seems like a strange reason to organize a sect.

haahaaa, there goes my other side! heeheee

How is that possible for chance to make order of disorder? To defy entropy?
I got this one guys, step down... and listen up-
I have a messy room (ok very messy), but If I were to clean it, it would be very sterile. However, if I just let it go (and I do) interesting things happen, new creatures come and mingle, art is formed! TAKE THAT ENTROPY, you are just doing my work for me! How could evolving order come from order? You need some entropy to spice things up!

If you look at the probability of it, its beyond the possibility. I really don't see how you can think that the universe could come to be by chance.  Would you care to elaborate?

Well without a "chance" there wouldn't be a possibility, you silly guy you

maybe you need to look up systems theory and chaos theory. The question of how order comes out of apparent disorder is a big topic in the sciences and is the basis of a lot of physics and math.

I'm just sittin here enjoying my "evolutionary" room....

Yep, because the millions of children that go blind or die sooo deserved it...

That's what they get fur maaahstuuurbatin!

Assuming the Bible is true, its your soul, and eternal torment.  But that's your call.

Oh, is that all? sheeeesh, well I'm never going to dial that number again

I rarely encounter people these days that seem to take such stock in the bible.
yeah especially with the economy, the way it is and all.....

Can I ask you what your take is on human slavery?  Selling daughters to other men?  Stuff like that?

Ahhh yes....those were the days....

"Usually I follow the Judao-Christian ethic of 'Thou shalt not kill'. But, that's just me."

well, so much for being unique! DAMN!

A little OT, but this is just silly. It would seem that, in the end, the suicidal got exactly what they wanted.

NOPE! God wanted them to kill themselves, they didn't even have one last original thought

If a religious person starts hate talk about the sexuality of others, it's a sure sign he likes to **** little boys.

*short burst of laughter that unfortunately woke up the person sleeping in the other room* worth it!

...Of course, many things are "statistically improbable" (including, hopefully, the probability of me dying within the next few minutes by burning up in the atmosphere of Jupiter)...

megarat...hey megarat, megarat? Are you there? hello? MEGAAARAAAAT! NOOOOOOOOO!

I would never say that religion is responsible for the majority of bad stuff that has happened in the world, I would however say that it's responsible for a disproportionately large number of bad stuff relative to other philosophies, pre-occupations etc.

HEY MISTER, you leave our keyboard obsessions out of this!

Maybe god is real and he created us by accident and is unaware of our existence, one day he'll see us; "Damn fungus on one of my floating balls", fshhhh... end of life.

I know whatcha mean, once every month or so I remember to wash down there.

I think dinosaurs were around people before the time of the flood.

Flinstones, meet the Flinstones....

How come the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs? How come there was no room on the ark for the dinosaurs?

they were impolite, and were asked to leave

Has anyone considered that maybe timw4mail is a Master Troll?

you mean there are actual rankings??? :S If so (and I think its mean to say so) then congrats, as that seems to be quite the achievement!!!!

I figured since so many people look to the bible there must be something justifiable there.
a common mistake
But, it sounds like its acceptable to pick and choose what applies and what doesn't based on human morality.
just like everthing else in life it's just a matter of convenience  
But its impossible to claim god's actions beyond our judgement when it is our judgement that controls what we believe god does.
fine I will stop being a puppet, do I have to think now?
... once life on the earth becomes the entrance test to enter heaven, that person becomes a true nihilist.
pssst...the answer is "d"

When this world only exists to serve man and man's greatest hope is to find happiness in an existance after this, this existance loses all value.  Forests can be leveled, sinners can be slaughtered, wars can be waged, because this is all meaningless outside of the completely internal, imaginary, and irrational drive to get ino a heaven that man invented.
Yeah, but.... my heavin will be awesome cuz I am really, really creative

I'll forego any more questions.  The lack of answers gave me my answers.

It's like when you get gas and you didn't even eat!

Everyone will get that ultimate proof sooner or later but he or she won't be able to tell someone anymore, because dead people usually don't talk.
And lets keep it that way! I can't stand half the crap living people say =P

As long as everyone has just nothing more than estimations, there will be no justifing for anything catholic or atheistic.
that's GUESSTIMATIONS to you mister!

Note: A growing tree is not a proof of god. He didn't write his name on it, so no one really knows where the tree comes from or who let it grow.
correct, its "Joey <3 Sarah's" tree, and it was carved pretty deep too!

Just saying everything we don't understand or don't know yet must be god is just cheap and lame.
pssst hey kid commmeeeer,*opens trenchcoat* you wanna buy a bible?

Thinking of someone supernatural protecting me is lame either, because there is no pattern for people with bad luck or without.
Nope, I'm pretty sure I have consistently bad luck

It is just action and reaction. If you are a bad dude, you won't acquire many positive things and there is always someone worse, who might be able to kick your ass. If you mess with people a lot, you create wrath and someday you are the one beeing messed with or you just have luck.
Dats why we jusss give dem damn kids guns and send em off ta skool!

You can be a good guy either but that won't protect you from beeing messed with.
Thats why good kids are strapped! uhhh... no wait...

That is all. Doing good things merely for some religion, it is just dissimulation and in the end you do it just for yourself.
Doing something good for the sake of mankind is the real thing. Religious or not. Who cares?

AHMEN!

[clickclack]

Can God create a weight he can't lift?
(the heavy burdon of proof perhaps?)

Can God create a problem he can't solve?
(humans are a pretty big problem, no solution in sight...)

Does God believe in a God?
He is probably agnostic =P

I had a very interesting girlfriend a long time ago, and she knew in her heart that I was going to HELL (dun-DUN-DUNNNN!!!!). We were very much in love at the time and I was mortified by this. Why? Because If I thought the one that I loved would be forever tormented and tortured, that would eat at me! What pills do these people take to help them sleep at night? I am baffled :S

[clickclack]

....Maybe in our last breath we're creating a mind loop which will appear for us lasting forever (you can dream 5minutes and the dream seems to last for hours). Beats me....
Crap! that sounds more scary than death! Spooky I say, spooky!

...Maybe I'm just sticking to this because of the fear of death. To be frank, I really hope, that something  cool is waiting, but I'm trying not to drown in my phantasy. It is really hard to imagine, beeing non-existent though. I think I'll just find out.

I think many people can understand that. I'm sure many people turned to religion because of that alone. It makes sense that being non-exixtent would be tough to imagine because by and large "nothing" in this sense can be grasped, you can't experience a non-experience. And not being able to wrap ones head around it makes it that much more frightening or bizarre.
Fascinating and CREEPY!

[Bollwerk]

@webwit: Maybe you misunderstood something... Agnostics believing in god?

Maybe you should spend your time more on reading instead of making fun of people. I never said, I believe in God or something alike.

Anyway I think there are people sensible for topics like this and those who aren't. I don't blame you for not beeing sensible, but I blame you for writing crap.

I you don't take this serious, just stop bothering me with your defaming comments and go playing elsewhere.

As I said earlier I shouldn't mix in. Just because of people like you.

I'm not wirting here to make you believe in something. Instead I want to discuss to widen my horizon.

@Clickclack: Yeah, maybe that would be scarier than death.^^

[ch_123]

If someone believes there comes somethin or nothing after death... based on what? You cannot shoot a person and say, you just had the feeling it was neccessary.

I have to agree with Webwit, if you follow that logic, you have to believe in the Easter bunny. In this context, you can't disprove a negative - I believe there's nothing after death because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that there's anything beyond it. The only reason why we even assume that there's something beyond death is due to people's often irrational fear of it.

Those feelings are somehow hideous, if you ask me.
They are biased, clouded thoughts and differ from person to person.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, it's a binary decision -

0) God does not exist.
1) God does exist.

Leaving exact semantics related to above aside, one of them has to be correct, whether you like it or not.

[Bollwerk]

You can exxagerate things by talking about easterbunnies, yes.

I can't proof anything. I just know, my organism will stop working. In this term, I would agree with that opinion of a atheist.

But as a scientist, you have to prove a theory before believing in it.
No one knows, what comes after death so everything is just speculative.
This organism thing seems of course more possible than an old hairy man, though, but maybe there is more connected to it.

[ch_123]

But as a scientist, you have to prove a theory before believing in it.

Exactly, so someone has to prove that there's something after death. I think the non-existence of an after-life is proved insofar as there is no proof to the contrary, which is the only logical way to deal with these kind of situations.

[timw4mail]

Something can not be considered false just due to lack of a proof. Regardless of whether something is proven factual or not, does not change the fact that it was factual in the first place.

[ch_123]

That's true to an extent, but I believe it's better to believe the wrong thing for the right reason than the right thing for the wrong one.

[Bollwerk]

After death is something hard to grab. It isn't a question if a bottle is empty or full.

Everyone has seen an empty or a full bottle, but no one has seen something, that could possibly come after death. Even if it is nothing.

The easterbunny is indeed the same case but far not important enough. We could discuss the same way either.
The cheesy moon could be the same, but we know very precisely, what it is. So believing in cheese is just too ridiculous, but may have been a possibility too. Ridiculous or not.

Well there can come anybody and say this or that could be possible. It is more a question of importance.

Guys believing in yetis or aliens may have a discussion the same way, but to me a yeti isn't important, so I don't bother. As long as people didn't see one but many believe in a yeti, it remains a legend.

It is just a easy decision. Yeti yes, yeti no.

After death could include many variations. "Nothing" is one of them.
You only have proof of the body notworking anymore. Not more, not less. Something like souls, mind loops or what the hell awaits us is just a mere black hole in knowlegde.

This is frightening people. So there comes religion and gives them fancy hope.
There comes the atheist and say: bull****. Your body is dead so are you.
And me... I don't know what to believe. So chosing one of those sides may be a mistake affecting my lifestyle.

[lal]

Personally I believe the catholic god is an illusion and the result of a 36 day long 3D movie your body thetans had to watch right after they were deported to Teegeeack (=Earth) in spaceships that looked like 1960s Douglas DC-8 airplanes without propellers and then nuked by hydrogen bombs.  Yes, I am totally clear.

[o2dazone]

Pictures or it didn't happen.

Could you imagine walking into a crowded church full of God fearing Christians saying that in the middle of a sermon?

[ch_123]

I think "Tits or GTFO" would provoke a better response one way or another =P

[erricrice]

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[ch_123]

Ok, so if anyone happens to want to know what Scientology is ACTUALLY about, you can take a look here.

And yes, there is a mention of "Thetan" but it is used to denote the human spirit.  Theta meaning energy, Thetan meaning a being of energy.  Comes from the Greek symbol.

Are you a Scientologist perchance?

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[wellington1869]

I'm already going to live forever - i'm in the google cache

[ch_123]

Funnily enough, I did the Scientology personality test the other day for the lulz. Unfortunately they did not tell me whether I'm as cool as Tom Cruise at the end, but leaving that aside, I have some questions for you -

1) What is the obsession with Scientology and Muscle twitches? I was asked at least three times during the quiz whether or not I suffered from them.

2) I was asked "Are you rarely undisturbed by 'noise off' " Can you translate this into English plx?

3) Are you trolling? If so, stop. Scientology is a very serious problem, we should feel sorry for the poor cultists.

[wellington1869]

Funnily enough, I did the Scientology personality test the other day for the lulz. Unfortunately they did not tell me whether I'm as cool as Tom Cruise at the end, but leaving that aside, I have some questions for you -

lol what were you doing taking the test?!

1) What is the obsession with Scientology and Muscle twitches? I was asked at least three times during the quiz whether or not I suffered from them.

maybe it indicates the presence of the holy spirit trying to communicte by taking possession of you

2) I was asked "Are you rarely undisturbed by 'noise off' " Can you translate this into English plx?

I would guess that when scientologists want you to be silent, they say "noise off!"

3) Are you trolling?

of course he is

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[ch_123]

lol what were you doing taking the test?!

As I said - for the lulz. A friend of mine somehow accquired a copy of the Scientology handbook and was discussing in great length the tactics that they were using to brainwash people. This inspired me to take their test. I was very pissed off that at the end of a long, and (deliberately) confusing test, they wouldnt tell me how I did, and insisted I get sent off to the nearest Gulag.

Seriously, if you want proof I will give it to you, but what do you want? A picture of one of the Scientology books next to my keyboard? With me in it? Do you want a picture of all the books? Really, I'll provide if you want, just tell me what it is that would be satisfactory for you.

Pay me $10,000. It should be enough to convince me.

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[ch_123]

Come on, really? Something that I can actually do.

You'll probably be paying that much and more to your new masters. What's the difference? Come on, them aliens have loads of money already, and I need moar keyboards.

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[ch_123]

Exactly. Why would your alien overlords need your generous cash donations? Is the Dollar even legal tender on Planet Ron Hubbard?

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[ch_123]

EDIT: Nevermind.

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[lal]

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[lal]

Well I tried.  Again, if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask.  I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Okay, what OT level have you reached so far?  Are you clear or do you still suffer from the reactive mind?

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[lal]

I am currently about half-way to clear.  My father is on OT 7.

Eric, you can do what you want.  But keep in mind that Scientology's primary interest is your money and making you help them getting other people's money.  That's really all it is about.  If you're the type of person that does not blindly believe anything someone tells you and usually consider all the pros and cons before making a decision, I highly recommend you read everything on xenu.net to learn about the opinion of "the other side".

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[lal]

You have already bought the books.  It will get more.  But I don't want to start an argument with you.  Read xenu.net if you're interested.

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[lal]

xenu.net

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[Bollwerk]

Hm. What do you think those people brings to the party for you?

I mean... Is there some end result, you think, you'll reach?
Do you feel different or better?

If it doesn't cost anything, there have to be at least a profit for you or are those books that exciting?

Well... If they are nice people... just for fun... ask if you can leave them.^^
I'm curious, what would happen.

Don't blame me for beeing overly cautious, but you know, Scientology has some bad reputation and I don't have the chance to ask some one directly connected to it.

[Rajagra]

Most people spend no money at all by getting student auditing.

Wait, you have to submit to some sort of auditing to join this religion?

I'll take the eternal damnation instead, thanks.

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[InSanCen]

Why why why did you have to use Lime on Black, my all time favourite colour combo (CGA FTW!), for that post...

It is meant to be used for momentous earth-shattering information (Unicomp doing blank keycapsfor IBM's at long last for instance), not another discussion on religion.

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[Bollwerk]

So basically, they help you strenghten your self-confidence and making better contacts to people. That is actually nice. There is many you can achieve with politeness.

This is something I think most of the people those days are lacking.

Hm. I'm still frightened and I don't think you could leave so easy if you want to.

The only advise I can give you is, watch out for your self. Spend more time considering if that, what is going on, is right or wrong. I recognized, that your opinions are extremely biased. If you are going on this way, they might be able to make you believe what is right or wrong and you wouldn't even recognize it.

I think they are baiting the simpletons out there with this stuff (actually other religions are doing the same), because they lack the ability to recognize something fishy.

Just watch out.

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