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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:06

Title: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:06
Updated: August 2016. Most recent mouse added: Logitech G Pro

About the mice in this overview
The mice in this overview were selected based on their performance on a number of criteria. While they do not perform equally well in each individual aspect, as a whole they outperform most other mice on the market. Specifically, none of the mice on the list suffer from acceleration or prediction within their max perfect tracking speeds. One thing you might notice is the lack of flagship model mice in the list. This is not a mistake, and largely explained by their use of laser sensors (particularly the Avago ADNS 9500, the Avago ADNS 9800 and the Philips Twin Eye sensor). These sensors typically perform well on most criteria, but are flawed in ways that make people avoid them.

1 Criteria
- 1.a Acceleration
- 1.b Prediction
- 1.c Lift off distance
- 1.d Max perfect tracking speed
- 1.e Malfunction/ Skipping speed
- 1.f Lag/Delay
- 1.g Jitter
- 1.h Smoothing
- 1.i Pixel walk
- 1.j Pixel skipping

2 Common terms
- 2.1 CPI/DPI
- 2.2 Polling rate
- 2.3 laser and optical sensor
- 2.4 Sensitivity

3 List of mice without acceleration and prediction
- Microsoft WMO 1.1
- Microsoft IMO 1.1
- Microsoft IME 3.0
- Zowie FK
- Zowie AM
- Zowie FK1
- Zowie EC1 CL
- Zowie EC1 eVo
- Zowie EC2 CL
- Zowie EC2 eVo
- Zowie EC1-A
- Zowie EC2-A
- Zowie ZA 11
- Zowie ZA 12
- Zowie ZA 13
- Razer Deathadder 3G
- Razer Deathadder 3.5G
- Razer Deathadder 2013
- Razer Deathadder Chroma
- Razer Abyssus
- Logitech G400
- Logitech G400s
- Logitech G303
- Logitech G502
- Logitech G Pro
- Steelseries Kana V2
- Steelseries Rival
- Mionix Avoir 7000
- Mionix Castor
- Cooler Master Storm Spawn
- Cooler master Storm Alcor
- Roccat Savu
- Roccat Kone Pure Optical
- Roccat Kone Pure Military
- Mad Catz R.A.T. 3
- Corsair M45
- Final Mouse 2015


4 Discussion: Mouse characteristics
- 4.1 Sensor positioning
- 4.2 Mouse feet
- 4.3 Scroll wheel
- 4.4 Cord
- 4.5 Weight
- 4.6 Coating
- 4.7 Side-buttons

5 Software

6 References


1 Criteria
So what makes a good mouse? A lot of things are obviously subjective. Everyone has a different grip, playstyle and particular anatomy, so naturally different people like different mice. However, there are some more or less objective criteria we can use to rate the performance of mice. By doing this, we can create a list of mice with superior sensor performance that span a variety of different shapes and sizes, so that it becomes possible for anyone to find something within the list that works for them both from an ergonomic and a sensor-performance standpoint. While individual skill remains the most important factor for ingame success, it is good to have some knowledge of mice, their sensors, and the way in which they can be lacking.

Mice listed here score well on most of the following criteria (when they do not perform well on one or more of the criteria in this list, it will be pointed out)

1.a Acceleration
Both distance traveled and speed with which the mouse is moved affect the distance the cross-hair on the screen moves. It occurs due to a misinterpretation of the sensor with respect to the speed. Basically, a sensor with acceleration is not able to see the same count when you move it fast and when you move it slow (for an idea of what this count is , see the CPI section).

We can use an example to illustrate what acceleration is:
-No acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in-game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 90 degrees in-game.
-Positive acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 110 degrees in-game. (increased movement speed increases cursor movement, hence positive)
-Negative acceleration: A person moves his mouse 5 inches slow, he turns 90 degrees in game. He moves his mouse 5 inches fast, he turns 70 degrees in-game.  (increased movement speed decreases cursor movement, hence negative)

While not always a bad thing, most people like to have a one to one relationship between movement by the mouse and movement on the screen. However, some people like to use acceleration because it offers them some sort of built in sensitivity adjustment. For example, when acceleration is positive, it allows the user to move the mouse slow to make the cursor or crosshair move slow so that they can be accurate. At the same time, the user can move the mouse fast to do a fast 180 degree turn, as fast mouse movement results in faster cursor movement. It is easy to see how acceleration can provide a unique benefit.

However, even for those who like to use acceleration, it is preferable to use the known and stable software acceleration available in games and within their operating system. The problem with hardware acceleration caused by the sensor in the mouse is that it can be both positive and negative, can be affected by the surface the sensor is used on, and can be unstable/inconsistent.

Acceleration is generally more noticeable to low sensitivity players who make long sweeps at varying speeds.

1.b Prediction
Also known as "angle snapping" and "mouse correction". The sensor removes very small movements from the tracking, ignoring small deviations from a mostly straight line. When you come close to moving in a vertical or horizontal line with the mouse, cursor-movement will be straight rather than follow your exact movement. Not everyone minds prediction , but generally most people want whatever happens on screen to mimic movement of the mouse, and prediction creates an inaccuracy in that regard.

1.c Lift off distance
This is the distance the mouse needs to be lifted from the mousepad to make the sensor stop tracking. Generally it is better to have a lower lift of distance, so that the sensor stops tracking the moment the mouse is lifted from the surface. People who have developed a habit of sometimes lifting the mouse 1 or 2 millimeter without the intention to make it stop tracking can have trouble adapting to mice with a very low lift off distance.

1.d Max perfect tracking speed
The maximum speed with which the mouse can be used where the tracking still stays perfectly accurate. Usually lower than malfunction/skipping speed. These tracking speeds are important for all players, but when the tracking speed is not up to par, it is most noticeable by low sensitivity players, who tend to use long sweeps at high speeds.

1.e Malfunction/ Skipping speed
The maximum speed with which the mouse can be used where the sensor does not stop tracking. When you hit the malfunction speed, what typically happens is that it appears that your mouse just stops tracking for an instant the moment you hit that speed. This is called "skipping".

1.f Lag/delay
A slight delay between mouse input and movement of the cursor/cross-hair on the screen. Sometimes it can be hard to spot, and fairly hard to capture and replicate. Especially when it happens inconsistently.

1.g Jitter
Also known as "ripple". The cursor does not follow mouse-movement exactly, but slightly moves in directions away from where it is supposed to go, making it "jittery" or "shaky". This is a problem often associated with using high (non-native) DPI settings (for more information see the CPI section).

1.h Smoothing
Sometimes, people mistake smoothing for prediction since that is what the word "smoothing" seems to describe. The problem of "noticeable smoothing" falls in the category of lag/delay (which can be caused by a number of things, "smoothing" being one of them), but I decided to add it separately to address some of the confusion surrounding it. The thing people notice when they complain about "smoothing" is actually a delayed response when moving the mouse. Every mouse has smoothing and in itself it is not a bad thing. It just describes part of the process of how mouse tracking is translated to cursor movement.  Where smoothing starts to become an issue is when this process noticeably affects sensor performance in the form delay. I should note that the delay associated with smoothing is not something that will be a problem for everyone, or not even something everyone will be able to notice.

1.i Pixel Walk
Pixel walk describes a sensor's inability to pick up slow mouse movement. At some very low speeds the sensor hesitates between motion and no motion. Every sensor has a certain speed threshold that needs to be passed for tracking to start. For some sensors, this "starting speed" is fairly high. Often, this is reported as lag/delay, because in addition to not following small slow movements, it feels as though there is a delay between when the mouse starts moving and when the cursor responds. This is due to the speed treshold not being reached immediately when the mouse starts moving. It also needs to be pointed out that the term "pixel walk" is sometimes used in a wrong context, describing issues with unintended cursor movement.

1.j Pixel Skipping
When tracking, a count from the sensor is translated to several pixels of cursor movement on the screen. This means that there is a loss in accuracy. It is not possible to manipulate the cursor with precision, and move it one pixel at a time, or land on one specific pixel on the screen. This problem is commonly, but not exclusively, associated with having a high windows sensitivity setting (>6/11).

2 Common terms
Here I explain some of the common terms that are used in relation to mice. (more are planned to be included)

2.1 CPI (better known as DPI)
"Raising the DPI is completely against the logic of performance"
"DPI... is a translation of how many pixels I travel when I move my hand by one inch. It is only this."
~ François Morier, Senior Engineer at Logitech.

Video:

The reason why I added those two quotes and the video is to address a common misconception about DPI. Somehow, people associate higher levels of DPI with higher levels of accuracy. This is not correct. A higher DPI does not mean that the sensor is more accurate, and on many occasions there is even a trade off in terms of performance to attain those higher levels of DPI.  You will notice that on the list of mice that are in this topic/guide, few of the the higher DPI mice/sensors currently available make the cut.

DPI itself is nothing more than a certain "count" per inch traveled. A higher DPI means a higher count for any distance the sensor travels across a surface which leads to the cursor (or reticle) on the screen traveling a larger distance. For example, when you are using a DPI of 400. That means that when you move the sensor an inch it will cover 400 pixels (not taking into account any ingame or OS sensitivity settings). This means that on a 1920x1080 resolution screen, it will take 1920/400=4.8 inches of mouse-movement to travel across the entire length of the screen. Note that this also means that in some (but not all) applications perceived sensitivity by the user is lower for higher resolution screens.

In some cases, the addition of a wider variety of DPI steps can come at a cost in the sense that those DPI steps reduce the performance of the sensor. Especially when it comes to optical sensors, high DPI settings are typically not native to the sensor. Instead, the higher DPI settings are attained through a technique known as interpolation (more accurately, there are different techniques through which interpolation is attained). This does not necessarily cause an issue, but there are common problems with several firmware and implementations of this technique by manufacturers. An in depth description of the interpolation process is both beyond my knowledge and the scope of this topic. If you want to know more about interpolation, you could watch the video above, and I highly suggest you check out the overview of mouse-technology by wo1fwood linked in the bottom under references. 

2.2 Polling rate
This is the frequency with which data is being sent to the operating system. The default polling rate on USB is lower than what most mice are capable of (every 8 miliseconds, or 125Hz), which is the reason why people sometimes "overclock" the polling /sampling rate (for more information see:
More
http://www.ngohq.com/news/15043-how-to-increase-usb-sample-rate-in-windows-vista-7-a.html
). Practically all modern gaming mice standard have a higher polling rate enabled. A polling rate of 500Hz or 1000Hz represents information being sent with a frequency of 2ms and 1 ms respctively. Typically you will not notice a difference between the two, but some mice that have an option to change polling rates do not behave exactly the same on both settings.

2.3 Laser and optical sensor
You will find that many mice are being advertized as being either laser or optical sensor mice. Obviously, this refers to the way the sensor detects movement of the mouse. Essentially, both laser and optical mice work very similarly. The main difference is the method that is used to illuminate the area under the sensor. With optical mice, this is done through the use of a light emitting diode (LED). Laser mice instead use an infrared laser diode to illuminate the surface under the sensor. The more interesting thing is the difference between the performance of laser and optical mice. Laser mice use a newer technology and are typically capable of attaining a higher DPI. For these two reasons people often incorrectly assume that laser sensors are superior.

When it comes to the sensor being able to track well on a surface, there are differences between the two, but one is not strictly better than the other. Laser sensors track better on some surfaces (like glass) while optical sensors track better on others (typically, cloth mousepads). Where the laser sensors lose out to the optical sensors is when it comes to accuracy and reliability. While the newer laser sensors manage to avoid prediction, the popular Avago laser sensors (9500, 9800) found in many modern mice all suffer from acceleration issues. Furthermore, while these sensor have a very high malfunction speed, their maximum perfect tracking speed is actually lower than that of the typical optical sensor. Another frequently used laser sensor, the Philips twin eye sensor, uses a different method to register mouse-movement. It actually does not have any acceleration issues, but introduces a problem when lifting the mouse, commonly referred to as a z-axis problem. The cursor moves when the mouse is lifted, which creates a problem for people who lift the mouse frequently with the intention of having the sensor stop its tracking.

One thing that is worth pointing out is that even when mice use the same sensor, that does not mean they have identical tracking characteristics. Different manufacturers implement sensors in a different way. Take the Avago 3090 sensor for example. Due to the specific implementation of it, we see it in mice that have some of the lowest lift of distances, and in mice that have some of the highest lift of distances on the market. Additionally, we see that the max perfect tracking speed differs across mice using this same sensor.

2.4 Sensitivity
Sensitivity describes the speed and distance of cursor movement that happens as a result of moving the sensor across a surface.  A higher sensitivity means that for any sensor /mouse movement, the cursor moves faster and travels a greater distance than for a lower sensitivity.

The sensitivity that you experience in-game is usually dependent on 3 settings:
-The sensitivity setting within in the operating syste (windows sensitivity slider)
-DPI setting on the mouse
-Ingame sensitivity setting
Ingame  sensitivity = [OS sensitivity setting] * [DPI setting on the mouse] * [Ingame sensitivity setting]

Many games give an option to use “raw input”. By turning this on, the OS sensitivity setting will be ignored for your ingame sensitivity. Your ingame sensitivity will then be described by: [DPI setting on the mouse] * [Ingame sensitivity setting]. However, it is not uncommon for issues to be reported with the “raw input” setting of some games. This is why people often choose the windows 6/11 setting instead without using raw input, making sure they are not exposing themselves to any specific issue the raw input setting of a particular game might cause.
 
A windows setting of 6/11 is the best setting, as it gives a 1 to 1 relationship between mouse and cursor movement that is not altered through software. In practice, using a windows setting below 6/11 is not too harmful. Certain minimal amounts of movement are thrown out (counts ignored), but minimal mouse movement remains 1 pixel, so there is no “skipping pixels”. Depending on the choice of windows setting, sensitivity is multiplied in the following way:

Setting 1/11 = 0.0625
Setting 2/11 = 0.0125
Setting 3/11 = 0.25
Setting 4/11 = 0.5
Setting 5/11 = 0.75
Setting 6/11 = 1
Setting 7/11 = 1.5
Setting 8/11 = 2
Setting 9/11 = 2.5
Setting 10/11 = 3
Setting 11/11 = 3.5

Where things start going wrong in a more noticeable and harmful way is when you choose a windows sensitivity above 6/11. This will result in skipped pixels. For example, if you wanted to do something with precision and move the cursor with one pixel, this might not be possible with a windows sensitivity setting larger than 6/11. The higher the windows sensitivity past 6/11, the more pixels are skipped. Minimal mouse-movement is no longer 1 pixel, but instead several pixels.

One thing that is annoying about sensitivity is that there is no unified measure for it in games. Additionally, different games deal with field of view settings in different ways, sometimes making it impossible to play on the exact same sensitivity settings. However, given a certain DPI and windows sensitivity setting, you can tweak the ingame sensitivity setting to get close to a sensitivity setting that you find comfortable to use. One method that is used to get a similar sensitivity across different games is measuring the number of inches you have to move the mouse horizontally across the mouse pad to make a 180 degree turn.  After measuring this, you can finetune the ingame sensitivity settings in other games to give you the same number of inches for a 180 degree turn. It should be pointed out that this method is more useful for arena-style and non-military shooters without aim-down-sight (ADS) mechanics. This is because in most games, sensitivity is changed when ADS, and the extent to which sensitivity changes when ADS differs from one game to the next (and can even be dependent on FOV settings and so forth).  In those situations, I recommend fine-tuning your settings through playing the game.


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:18
3 List of mice without acceleration and prediction
Microsoft WMO 1.1
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: 72 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 3
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Slightly mushy in actuation. Does not feel as crisp as the standard omron switches found in most modern gaming mice. Some people mention that later versions have slightly better feeling switches. I myself have used many WMO 1.1 for a long time and never noticed a difference.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the WMO is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically WMO users unbind scroll). Often, when you slam the mouse down too hard on the mousepad after picking it up, the LMB or RMB might actuate.
-Picture:
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/3/31/300x300px-LS-314dad38_B00006B7HB-31N7ENCV2ZL.jpeg)

The original Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical, a mouse that was produced without the intention of it being a gaming mouse. However, it has become somewhat of a classic gaming mouse. This is both due to the sensor performance, and it having no acceleration or prediction, but also because a lot of tournaments were won by well-known players with this mouse. In Quake, players like Cypher and Rapha have used it, and still used it recently to dominate Dreamhack winter 2013. In Counter Strike, a lot of players, (for example, Spawn, though not anymore) use the mouse. Another reason why people love this mouse is its extremely low weight

The downside to this mouse is that the max perfect tracking speed is rather low at only 1.0 m/s. However, it can be "overclocked" by increasing the USB sample rate, and the max perfect tracking speed increases to around 1.5 m/s when overclocked to 500Hz or more. You can find more info on how to do this here
More
http://www.ngohq.com/news/15043-how-to-increase-usb-sample-rate-in-windows-vista-7-a.html (http://www.ngohq.com/news/15043-how-to-increase-usb-sample-rate-in-windows-vista-7-a.html)
. While the mouse is discontinued, original and re-coated *(but legitimate) versions continue to be available, mostly from China.

Microsoft IMO 1.1
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: 82 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 5 (one extra thumb button on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Different switches have been used for the IMO 1.1. Before 2005 they used the d2f-01f-t. After 2005 they used the D2FC-F-7N. Both have a fairly low actuation force and soft feedback, with a subtle difference in feel.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the IMO is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically IMO users unbind scroll).
-Picture:
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/8/87/300x300px-LS-87a9acbf_1583778057_intellimouse1.1.jpeg)

In many regards very similar to the WMO (same sensor, same flaws), though with side-buttons.

Microsoft IME 3.0
-Sensor: STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04
-Weight: Around 110 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Standard plastic. Versions with matte or glossy aftermarket coating available for purchase.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Different switches have been used for the IMO 1.1. Before 2005 they used the d2f-01f-t. After 2005 they used the D2FC-F-7N. Both have a fairly low actuation force and soft feedback, with a subtle difference in feel.
-Quality/ Design issues: The stock cord on the IME is thick, heavy, and not very flexible. There can be "phantom scolling"/"scroll jump" where the mouse scrolls one click when moving it (typically IME users unbind scroll).
-Picture:
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/2/24/300x300px-LS-2485c9ef_N82E16826105018-26-105-018-02.jpeg)

In many regards very similar to the WMO (same sensor, same flaws), though with side-buttons, and a very different more ergonomic form factor.

Zowie FK, AM
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: AM 88 grams (without the cord). FK 85 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: AM glossy, rubberized, and rubberized with glossy sides. Glossy sides may no longer be available. FK rubberized coating.
-Buttons: 7. Only 5 available at the same time depending on which side you use.
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: The AM does not have a stress relief on the cord. While I have not seen any complaints about it yet, typically, after years of use, this leads to damage to the cord. It is not yet confirmed that this is really a problem. There was a problem with the coating of the 2014 version Zowie FK peeling off over time. However, Zowie claims these issues have been addressed 
More
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57

-Picture: AM
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/a/a7/300x300px-LS-a7e143d7_704012180_Zowie-AM-Mouse-Doesn-t-Care-What-Hand-You-Use-2.jpeg)
. FK
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/e/e7/300x300px-LS-e7fb0266_B00CVPRE1U-31VZprs2BdlL.jpeg)

These are mentioned together since they are the same sensor in a very similar shell. Zowie's implementation of the Avago ADNS 3090 gives these mice a very low lift off distance. Possibly the lowest of any mouse on the market. There has been mention of a noticeable delay on the 450 DPI setting. While some confirm the issues, others say they do not perceive anything wrong on this setting. At this moment this is still not entirely clear. 
More
To those who have experienced lag on the 450 DPI setting, an alternative would be using the 2300 DPI setting with windows setting 3/11, or the 1150 DPI setting at 4/11 which will both get you to that lower DPI (you can do further tweaking in the ingame sensitivity setting). Using a windows setting below 6/11 does not do much harm and does not cause the count skipping that you see when going  higher than 6/11. Reviews and tests show that the 2300 DPI step does come with more jitter than the other two steps, but it is not horrendous (it seems to be worse as you use a higher polling rate). Takasta's review on OCN shows the jitter at various settings in a lot of detail. It is worth pointing out that not everyone will perceive the delay on the 450 DPI step to be an issue.


Zowie FK1
-Sensor: Avago 3310
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Rubberized coating.
-Buttons: 7. Only 5 available at the same time depending on which side you use.
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: There have been complaints of some input latency occurring for clicks from the FK1. However, it is claimed this has since been fixed by Zowie.
-Picture:
More
(http://www.zowiegear.com/pr_image/vs1.jpg)


Zowie EC1/EC2 eVo & eVo CL
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: EC1 97 grams (without the cord). EC2 93 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed). EC1 and EC2 have a similar overall shape but are different sizes (EC1 is larger)
-Coating: EC1&EC2 Evo glossy, rubberized, rubberized with glossy sides. Rubberized with glossy sides may no longer be available. EC1&EC2 CL rubberized.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: People have complained about the scroll wheel on the EC1 and EC2. There is quite a lot of "play" for the wheel to move, and this can cause a problem with scrolling not registering. While replicating the problem is easy (pinch and slightly lift the wheel, and the scroll will not register), most people do not experience any problem with normal use of the scroll wheel. There was a problem with the coating of the EC eVo CL series peeling off over time. However, Zowie claims these issues have been addressed 
More
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57
.

-Picture: EC1 & EC2
More
(http://content.hwigroup.net/images/news/Zowie_EC1_eVo_002.jpg)

These use the same sensor as the FK and AM, have a similar implementation, but a very different (ergonomic) shape.

Zowie EC1-A & EC2-A
-Sensor: Avago 3310.
-Weight: EC1-A 97 grams (without the cord). EC2-A 93 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Same rubberized coating as the zowie FK
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: Earlier this mouse exhibited the same latency when it comes to clicks as the FK1, but this has since been addressed.
-Picture:
More
(http://www.zowiegear.com/upload/productgallery/picture_54b75f440ae0b_97.jpg)


Zowie ZA 11/12/13
-Sensor: Avago 3310.
-Weight: Without cord. 11: 90g, 12: 85g, 13: 80g
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Same rubberized coating as the zowie FK
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Huano. Need slightly more actuation force than most common switches. Give a distinct tactile feedback.
-Quality/ Design issues: Earlier this mouse exhibited the same latency when it comes to clicks as the FK1, but this has since been addressed.
-Picture:
More
(http://www.zowiegear.com/upload/productgallery/picture_552e000b25ede_104.jpg)


Razer Deathadder 3G aka V1
-Sensor: Avago ADNS-S3668
-Weight: 105 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte textured surface, glossy sides.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The coating material used for the top of the mouse will eventually wear off. People frequently report that the side-buttons stop working (cave in) at some point, which is something that typically does not fail first on other mice.
-Picture:
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/7/7a/300x300px-LS-7a5be353_B002Q4U5DK-41VQfgzIiuL.jpeg)

When it first came out it had prediction. This has been fixed by Razer in a firmware that was later released.

Razer Deathadder 3.5G aka V2
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3888
-Weight: 112 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed and left-handed version available)
-Coating: Matte textured surface with glossy sides. Also available with matte textured surface and rubberized sided, and in full glossy coating.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The coating material used for the top of the mouse will eventually wear off. This is not an issue with the "glossy" special editions. People frequently report that the side-buttons stop working (cave in) at some point, which is something that typically does not fail first on other mice.
-Picture:
More
(http://cdn.overclock.net/7/7a/300x300px-LS-7a5be353_B002Q4U5DK-41VQfgzIiuL.jpeg)

When it was first released there was a jittering issue. This has been fixed by Razer in a firmware that was later released. The other main problem is that it has a fairly high lift off distance. This can however be addressed by the "tape fix". More information about this tape-fix can be found here
More
http://www.overclock.net/t/1211083/tape-trick-for-lower-liftoff-distance-lod-with-optical-mice (http://www.overclock.net/t/1211083/tape-trick-for-lower-liftoff-distance-lod-with-optical-mice)
and here
More
http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2081569 (http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2081569)
. Also check out the lift off distance section in the guide here
More
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648)


Razer Deathadder 2013 aka V3 / Deathadder Chroma
-Sensor: Avago ADNS s3988
-Weight: 105 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Slightly rough matte textured surface with glossy sides. Sides have a rubber grip.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: While there are no specific issues that are often reported, it has to be said that when the deathadder 2013 came out, it was very common that people had to RMA it for different reasons. Like the mouse dying completely or developing a scroll-wheel problem. I do not know to what extent these issues have been addressed by the company, but after it had been out for a long time, complaints about the durability of the DA 2013 started to quiet down.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/6/65/300x300px-LS-65bc9410_1282582033_razer-deathadder-gallery-4.png)

Note that I added the Chroma and 2013 deathadder together even though they are two separate models. When it comes to the things listed here, the two are largely the same mouse, with the same weight, same sensor and so on. The main differences are that the Chroma adds a 10k DPI option (which does not perform that well due to additional jitter), the braided cable is a little bit thinner, and the surface is slightly smoother (but still a rough textured feel comparable to the 2013 version).


Razer Abyssus
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3888
-Weight: 68 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Matte plastic and glossy version available
-Buttons: 3
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The main problem with the abyssus concerns the sensor. It seems that some people get a good one without jitter while others do not. While it is not entirely clear how wide-spread the problem is, jitter is a frequent problem with this model.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/3/36/300x300px-LS-36bbb4c9_N82E16826153056-26-153-056-02.jpeg)

When it was first released there was a jittering issue. Firmware can't be updated, so you need to buy a recent model. However, people have been saying that some abyssus do still have jitter.

Logitech G400
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3095
-Weight: 104 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Many people have reported that the G400 has a common problem with the cord, where the mouse will sometimes completely stop working. The design is also without stress relief, which has caused cord problems for some, but the issue is way less common.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/b/b2/300x300px-LS-b2f03730_optical-gaming-mouse-g400-glamour-images.png)

First generation of the Logitech G400 had prediction and another sensor (the Avago 3080E sensor). You need a PID above LZ13333 for a G400 without this problem. Here is where you can find the information you need to see whether you have a "good" version:
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(http://www.logitech.com/assets/41697/g400-product-info.jpg)


Logitech G400s
-Sensor: Avago ADNS S3095
-Weight: 109 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the G400s.
-Picture:
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(http://www6.pcmag.com/media/images/319946-logitech-g400s-optical-gaming-mouse.jpg)

There have been a number of people who claim that the tracking to the left and tracking to the right is slightly different for this mouse. Most G400s users seem to find that this problem is either not there, and even with careful testing they were not able to replicate it.

Logitech G303
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366
-Weight: 87 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous shape, but right handed (buttons on one side)
-Coating: Regular/smooth plastic top with matte textured plastic sides
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Metal spring button tensioning system that is both tactile and smooth according to users and have little travel.
-Quality/ Design issues: Many people have found that the mouse rattles when moved rapidly. Not all G303's have this problem.
-Picture:
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(http://mms.businesswire.com/media/20150305005009/en/455721/5/G303_CTG_Orange.jpg)


Logitech G502
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366.
-Weight: 121 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth, matte plastic. Rubber grip on both sides. 
-Buttons: 11
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: There currently is a problem that the awkwardly shaped and placed mouse feet tend to come off when used on some surfaces (more likely on those surfaces where there is more resistance, and for low sensitivity players who do long sweeps). Some people seem to have a problem with their G502 where the tracking of the mouse sometimes completely fails. A recent firmware update did not solve the problem for everyone.
-Picture:
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(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-92ecdmgL.jpg)

Despite being an optical sensor, it has a max DPI of 12.000 and it is said that every DPI step is native (attained without interpolation). One thing that does need to be pointed out to anyone considering this mouse is that for the size of an optical mouse like this, it is quite a bit heavier than most other optical mice that it competes with.

Logitech G Pro
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3366
-Weight: 83 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Symmetrical but not entirely ambidextrous due to the side-buttons being on the left.
-Coating: Hard plastic
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Logitech G Pro
-Picture:
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(http://gaming.logitech.com/assets/64687/9/pro-gaming-mouse.png)


Steelseries Kana V2
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 88 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Available in matte plastic, and with glossy top and matte sides
-Buttons: 5 (one extra thumb button on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Kana v2
-Picture:
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(http://steelseries.com/wp-content/uploads/heroshot_productpage_kanav2.png)

Very high lift off distance that can be addressed with the tape fix. For more info regarding the tape-fix, see: Deathadder 3.5G

Mionix Avior 7000
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 100 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ambidextrous
-Coating: Rubberized coating
-Buttons: 7 (two extra thumb buttons on each side)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches. Not entirely sure which ones, I suspect the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mionix Avoir 7000
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/f/fe/300x300px-LS-fe18b47b_285362865_AVIOR-7000-4-Transparent-BG.png)

Jitters at the higher DPI settings.

Mionix Castor
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 94 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Soft rubber coating with additional textured rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 6
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches. D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mionix Castor
-Picture:
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(http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server4200/8hjcw/products/112/images/490/Castor_Website__77685.1436347747.1280.1280.png?c=2)


Cooler Master Storm Spawn
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090.
-Weight: 86 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic coating, rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Compared to other gaming mice, the cable on the Spawn is relatively thick and inflexible.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/1/1a/300x300px-LS-1a625c17_B004RJJMBI-41pTQI2Y2BNL.jpeg)

There are some firmware issues that impact performance. The original firmware had lag when using the buttons on the mouse. Other later firmware did not improve the mouse in every way, but instead removed some issues and introduced others. The firmware versions differ in lift off distance and tracking speed for example. Later versions of firmware addressed the button lag for example, but actually introduced a lower tracking speed, and a higher lift off distance, and some people claimed it also caused noticeable smoothing. This leads some people to intentionally keep using the old firmware. The mouse tape fix works for the high lift off distance (see: Deathadder 3.5G).

Cooler Master Storm Alcor
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 87 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte, slightly textured plastic UV-coating. Rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7, but DPI buttons on the top are not programmable
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches *(not sure which model), actuation is slightly stiffer and requires a little more force than the typical Omron D2FC-F-7N switches
-Quality/ Design issues: This mouse has just been released and there has not been enough time for issues regarding durability to surface. Some things that have been mentioned but still not comfirmed are a rattling sound when moved rapidly and the scroll wheel has some play/wobble.
-Picture:
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(http://gaming.coolermaster.com/images/products/78/image_527.jpg)

Like many other mice that implement this particular sensor, it suffers from a high lift off distance. This can be addressed with the tape fix, but this has been shown to cause excessive jitter at the higher DPI settings. The mouse lacks a lower DPI step (starting at 800).

Steelseries Rival
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3310
-Weight: 129 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Rubberized coating on the top, rubber grips on the sides
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Not entirely certain. It is rumored they are not omron switches and they feel different (TTC switches?). Actuation force remains light, but the feedback is not as crisp or clicky. Some describe them as slightly more mushy than the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N.
-Quality/ Design issues: On some of the Rivals, LMB and RMB touch when pressed at the same time. Many people report that the mouse-wheel rattles with rapid movements.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/a/ad/300x300px-LS-adcad95b_B00G6IJ5QK-31jJsg7A2XL.jpeg)


Roccat Savu
-Sensor: Avago ADNS A3090
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Matte plastic top with very rough, grainy plastic sides.
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: The textured, grainy plastic coating on the sides scrubs off over time, leaving just smooth plastic.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/b/b2/300x300px-LS-b2b9a332_B007MPVRQC-310x9s6CnKL.jpeg)

Reported low max tracking speed on some surfaces. High lift off distance that can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G). Noticeable jitter at the higher DPI settings.

Roccat Kone Pure Optical
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-Weight: 96 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic that has a slightly rubberized feel that fades over time.
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Roccat Kone Pure Optical
-Picture:
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(http://legitreviews.com/images/reviews/news/roccatkonepure_optical_480.jpg)

High lift off distance comparable to the Savu that can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G)

Roccat Kone Pure Military
-Sensor: Avago 3310
-Weight: around 90 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Smooth plastic that has a slightly rubberized feel that fades over time.
-Buttons: 7
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N, very little actuation force necessary, soft feedback
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Roccat Kone Pure Military
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/7/7b/900x900px-LL-7ba9e89d_ROCCAT_KonePure_MilitaryEdition_CamoCharge_persp.png)


Mad Catz R.A.T. 3 (limited information and testing available)
-Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090
-weight: 98 grams without the cord
-Shape: Ergonomic (right handed)
-Coating: Standard (slightly matte) plastic
-Buttons: 6 (including the programmable button on top)
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Unclear. Supposedly it is neither Omron nor Huano, but it has a slightly more tactile feel and is slightly harder to press than than the standard Omron D2FC-F-7N switches. More information necessary.
-Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Mad Catz R.A.T. 3
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/9/95/300x300px-LS-95298e4e_N82E16826102065-26-102-065-07.jpeg)

Originally this mouse was released with a laser sensor like the other mice in the RAT series. Somewhere halfway through 2012 however, the model was updated with the Avago ADNS 3090 sensor. Because this change in sensor went largely unnoticed, not enough information about the performance of this mouse is available. I feel like this was in part due to the poor reputation of the RAT series and the Mad Catz brand in the communities that would typically do these kind of tests. The reason why it is currently on the list is because of the sensor that is used, which usually does not have any prediction or acceleration. However, that is not guarantee that the RAT3 does not have it since there are mice that implement the 3090 sensor with acceleration (Puretrak Valor). This mouse has a very high lift off distance, which is a common problem for mice implementing this sensor. While not confirmed anywhere, I am fairly certain this can be addressed with the tape fix (see: Deathadder 3.5G). Another thing to notice is that while I can not find any tests of the tracking speed of the mouse anywhere, the company (Mad Catz) themselves state that the max tracking speed is only 1.5 m/s, which is surprisingly low for a mouse using this sensor. Various sources mention that the sensor has a max tracking speed of over 2 m/s. According to Woll3 (posted in this thread) 450 and 900 steps are very inconsistent and are suffering from Pixelwalk issues, general tracking at 1800 is fine. The mouse jitters alot on 3500cpi.

Corsair M45
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3310 , this is the same as the Avago 3310 just under a different name .
-Weight: 90 grams (without the cord, without the optional weights)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: Rough textured plastic on the sides. Rubberized coating on the top 
-Buttons: 7, all programmable
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron switches *(not sure which model). Very likely Omron D2FC-F-7N switches since these were the one used in other mice in the Corsair lineup like the M65. But this has yet to be confirmed.
-Quality/ Design issues: This mouse has just been released and there has not been enough time for issues regarding durability to surface. However, the mouse wheel could have questionable durability if the implementation is the same as in other Corsair mice (this is not confirmed for this specific model). Apart from durability issues, the mouse-wheel in previous corsair mice that seem to be using the same mold had a lot of "play" and were fairly loose. This would result in some rattle when the mouse was moved rapidly, which annoyed some users.
-Picture:
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(http://cdn.overclock.net/1/1c/300x300px-LS-1cd27e17_B00IDWFN4U-41WVnS1FplL.jpeg)

Noticeably more jitter at the higher DPI settings.

Finalmouse 2015
-Sensor: Pixart PMW 3310 , this is the same as the Avago 3310 just under a different name .
-Weight: 74 grams (without the cord)
-Shape: Ergonomic (right-handed)
-Coating: glossy plastic on the sides with a rubbery kind of foam where you place your thumb. Rubberized coating on the top 
-Buttons: 5
-Switches used for LMB and RMB: Omron D2FC-F-7N
-Quality/ Design issues: There are complaints from users criticizing the side buttons of the mouse. They are said to feel loose and rattle when the mouse is moved rapidly. Another thing frequently mentioned is that people do not like the way they are shaped. Many people feel like the overall build quality is not up to par when compared to the major brands.
-Picture:
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(http://www.finalmouse.com/nodework/images/home-product-2.jpg)



Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:50:58
4 Discussion : Mouse characteristics

4.1 Sensor positioning
Normally, the sensor of the mouse is positioned somewhere near the center. There are some mice however, where the sensor is not located in the center of the mouse. While not necessarily a bad thing, this could take some getting used to, as it affects how hand and wrist movement are translated to cursor movement. For example, when the cursor is placed further towards the front, this makes cursor movement feel more exaggerated. When rotating the wrist a sensor that is closer to the palm of the hand will travel a shorter distance than a sensor that is placed closer to the fingertips. While it is perfectly possible to adjust to a different sensor location and this happens largely intuitively, some people feel that they would rather use a peripheral that is compatible with the muscle memory they have built up over the years.

4.2 Mouse-feet
Generally, there are 3 types of mouse-feet that we commonly see: PTFE (Teflon), UHMWPE, and Regular plastic mouse feet. Most modern gaming mice come with Teflon mouse feet. This is generally regarded as the best material for mousefeet for having the best glide (causing the least amount of friction between the mouse and the mousepad), as well as having decent durability.
 
UHMWPE is a cheaper alternative to Teflon. It is not cheaper because of a shorter or simpler production process, but due to the cost of one of the main raw materials used to make PTFE. UHMWPE is a material that is almost as slick as PTFE. Theoretically, it is more durable than PTFE, and one of the most wear resistant materials in the plastic family.  UHMWPE is used by some popular mouse manufacturers such as Steelseries, who refer to it as UPE.

Outside of the material used there are other factors that can improve glide of the mouse. Shape, size and thickness of the mouse feet play a role. Any shape with sharp rather than soft rounded edges tends to cause more friction. When it comes to size, it is a trade off. Increasing the size of the mouse-feet improves the glide by distributing the weight over a larger area, but when the surface that is in contact with the mouse-pad is too large, the increased friction reduces the smoothness of the glide. In practice, mouse feet are often too small, and rarely too large. Thickness of the mousefeet plays a role because it creates clearance between the mouse and the mousepad, making sure that only the mouse-feet touch the pad. Some popular model mice do not have enough clearance with their stock feet, and friction is caused because part of the bottom of the mouse is constantly dragged across the surface. Thicker mouse-feet also last longer, and can take more wear before they have to be replaced. Additionally, thicker mouse-feet could help reduce the lift of distance of a mouse, as it increases the distance from the sensor to the surface (and therefore decreases the distance the mouse needs to be lifted to stop tracking).

There are aftermarket mouse-feet available for most popular models of mice. One inexpensive way people sometimes improve the glide with subpar stock mouse feet is to actually cover them with a strip of PTFE tape or UHMWPE tape. When applied properly, this can greatly reduce friction when stock feet do not provide the glide that the user requires.

4.3 Scroll-wheel
There are two types of scroll-wheels that are used: Optical and Mechanical.  The optical scroll-wheel uses an optical encoder. I believe there are several types available, but basically there is a LED that has its light pointed at a detector. Scrolling causes small pins to pass through the light from the LED. When they do, it gives a signal of both the direction and how many “steps” the wheel has been scrolled. A mechanical scroll wheel uses a mechanical encoder. Again, several different types, such as TTC and Alps encoders are available with slightly different properties. Scrolling the wheel triggers a mechanical switch registering both the steps and direction of the scroll.

There is no clear winner in terms of functionality between the mechanical and optical scroll wheel. They do however differ in feel. Some people prefer mechanical scroll wheels, which typically provide a little more resistance and almost tactile feel from one click to the next. Others prefer optical scroll wheels, which often have less resistance and provide a smoother scroll. It should be pointed out that when it comes to durability, the exact implementation and design of the mouse and mouse-wheel is usually more important than whether or not the wheel is optical or mechanical, and which specific encoder is used.

Other noticeable characteristics of a scroll-wheel are the number of steps that are on the wheel. Some wheels come with many steps, resulting in less travel of the wheel necessary to go from one step to the next. This makes using the wheel feel more fluid. Other wheels have fewer steps, and the wheel needs to travel further to go from one step to the next. Again, which one is best here is personal preference, and depending on how you intend to use the scroll wheel. Some people like having fewer steps, creating more distinct individual steps that can be used more accurately. Others like the smoothness of scrolling made available by having more steps, especially when used for common tasks outside of games.

Finally there is the shape and material of the scroll-wheel that could be taken into consideration.  Again, it is personal preference that is important here. However, in general people prefer wheels that provide some sort of grip (either through material used or some kind of indentations), to wheels that are completely slick.

4.4 Cord
A common trend in mice is the inclusion of a braided cord-sleeve. However, not everyone views the inclusion of a braided cord as a positive thing. In some cases the braided cord-sleeves are less flexible than cords that are only protected by a soft plastic. Additionally, some braided cord-sleeves cause more friction with the surface the mouse is used on, making the user experience more “drag”. It should be pointed out that this does not mean that plastic cables are always better. Not all plastic cables are flexible, nor all braided sleeves inflexible. Some braided sleeves have a finer pattern that creates less friction, and some plastic cables create a lot of friction when combined with specific surfaces.

Most manufacturers advertize that the inclusion of a braided cord is to increase durability. However, braided cord-sleeves that started to fray have become a common complaint  for some models of mice, leading some people to believe that at least some braided cord-sleeves are actually more susceptible to damage than plastic ones. Durability of cords can be, and has been, an issue with some mice before braided cord-sleeves came around. However, these issues were usually not related to how well the wires in the cord were protected by the cord-sleeve (even if they were, it was often due to a design mistake, such as the lack of a stress-relief on the cord). You can question whether an increase in cord-sleeve durability was ever something we really needed.

4.5 Weight
Mice come in many different shapes and sizes. But not only the shape, but also the weight of a mouse plays a large part in how the mouse feels. Some mice even come with “adjustable weights”, usually containing some sort of cartridge that can hold weights and that can be placed in the mouse.

Like most other characteristics of the mouse, personal preference plays a role here. Playstyle is also important. Someone with a low sensitivity typically lifts his mouse frequently, constantly sweeping it over large distances. It is no coincidence that such players often prefer lighter mice, as this makes these actions easier to perform.  Someone who plays at a higher sensitivity however, cares more about the accuracy of his small movements. A heavier mouse could provide a little more resistance, and needs more force to be moved, allowing the user to avoid any unintentional movement of the mouse. One alternative to this however, might be to use a surface that creates more friction with the mouse. This way it is possible to use a lighter mouse, maintaining the benefits of a light mouse, while keeping the kind of control that you associate with a heavier mouse. When it comes to weight, many people feel strongly that mice should be as light as possible.

But it is not only the number of grams that matters when it comes to weight. What also matters is how weight is distributed over the mouse.  This can drastically alter the feel of a mouse, especially for those who pick up the mouse a lot. For example, there are some models of mice where the bulk of the weight is located in the back of the mouse. People who tend to lift the mouse by putting pressure on the sides of the mouse near the front find such a weight distribution awkward to use, as it pulls the back of the mouse back to the surface. This is also where adjustable weights sometimes create a problem, as they can cause weight to become more clustered in one area of the mouse.

4.6 Coating
While there are many coatings available, they can be generally divided in 4 categories: Smooth plastic, Textured plastic, Rubberized, and Glossy coating.

There is no one best option here. Which coating works out for a user is dependent on number of things such as ambient temperature, perspiration, oiliness of the skin, grip style as well as individual preference. While most people can get used to Smooth and Textured plastic, experiences with Glossy and Rubberized coatings differ wildly. Overall, completely dry hands and very sweaty hands will both have trouble with any kind of coating, as both cause a lack of  friction between the skin and any surface material. However, glossy coatings are generally a very good option for hands that tend to be dry, while rubberized surfaces can work for both dry and wet hands depending on user preferences.

4.7 Side-Buttons
While companies usually advertize with the switches that are used in the main mouse button (LMB and RMB), it is often harder to figure out what kind of switches are used for the other buttons on the mouse.

Similar to switches in the LMB and RMB, Omron switches are generally considered the “golden standard” here as well. However, the majority of producers opt for cheaper alternatives when it comes to the side buttons and the scroll-wheel click. Typically they use a switch without the crisp distinct feel associated with the Omron switches. However, there is not always a trade-off in durability when the cheaper switches are used, as the modern cheaper switches are often rated for a similar number of clicks as the omrons (if the information given by the manufacturer is to be believed). An example and perhaps the most common among those cheaper alternatives are the TTC switches like the TTC 159. They are found in many modern mice, in many different brands.

Regardless of the switches used, even more so than for the LMB and RMB, the design of the mouse determines how they feel. Things that affect how pleasant they are to use are actuation force, size, location, travel and feedback. When it comes to side-buttons, people seem to pretty much universally agree that they prefer a light actuation. All mice that have a stiffness to their side-buttons are criticized for it. The amount of travel before actuation occurs seems to be less of an issue, as some very popular models have a relatively long travel and it seems to be rarely mentioned or changed in different iterations of the model.


5 Software
-Enotus mouse test: Allows you to check your mouse's max tracking speed, DPI as well as polling rate
More
http://enotus.at.tut.by/Articles/MouseTest/index.html

-Mouse Rate: Allows you to accurately measure your mouse's polling rate
More
http://www.pscheidl.cz/index.php/software/2-mouserate

-Mouse Movement Recorder: Displays movement registered by the mouse's sensor and movement of the cursor on the screen. Also gives an approximation of the polling rate
More
http://smoothmouse.com/forum/topic/32-mouse-movement-recorder-records-mouse-pointer-movement/

-Outerspace's Max IPS logger: Allows you to see your max tracking speeds and detect acceleration
More
http://www.sendspace.pl/file/1537a54bef4bf98d945f3c3/outerspaces-max-ips-logger-logerandconverter
or
More
https://mega.co.nz/#!pcpGkK6S!GZR5nXgySabz7YfnGekDSV8vH-0H2WAineYq3XZzj64
. Please note that these two links have not yet been verified.
-Mouse Click Response Speed Testing Software: Allows you to test the response time of your mouse's LMB and RMB clicks
More
http://www.bloody.tw/en/download.php

-microe1's MouseTester: Do not know too much about this software. Written by an OCN member
More
https://github.com/microe1/MouseTester

- Microsoft Paint: Drawing lines in paint allows you to easily detect jitter and prediction
More
It comes with windows dummy. Any alternative similarly functioning application will also work


6 References
- Overview of mouse technology by wo1fwood on the teamliquid.net forums http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648)
- Overview of mice and their sensors, which was the starting point of this thread on ESreality by Wata, which you can find at http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663 (http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663)
- Gaming mouse sensor list by woll3 on OCN http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list (http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list)

Some of the information in the references will overlap with the information provided in this thread. More useful references will be added.

Please note
This is a work in progress, and therefore not all mice worthy of consideration are included in this list nor is the description of mice complete.

Things to be done:
-Update the information on some of the mice now that they have been out for a while and we know more about them.
-Add specific info for each mouse in the list, such as weight, number of buttons, ergonomic or not,  etc.
-Add information about the switches used in the mouse (omron, huano etc.)
-Add the1onewolf suggestion. Adding known and consistent quality and design issues for each mouse.
-Add information about the specific problems of popular laser sensors.
-Add general information about mice such as DPI/CPI, polling rate
-Add instructions for how to calculate sensitivity
-Add more information about whether a mouse has been used in competitive play (this will be limited to Counter Strike and Quake)
-Add graphical representations of described issues with mice
-Add information about software you can use to test your mouse on a number of the criteria
-Add discussion about physical mouse characteristics, such as the materials used for the feet, materials used for the coating (glossy, rubberized etc.) or the cable (braided/non-braided, thickness etc.)
-Add mice that should be included. (*this is ongoing. The list does not always contain all the mice that should be on there, but will eventually be updated to include them)

Acknowledgement
There have been a ton of contributors to this guide. So many in fact, that it would not be fair to include only a few of them. So I decided to make a general acknowledgement instead. The way you should view this guide, is really just as a compilation of information made available by many different individuals that share the same enthusiasm for mice and PC peripherals. Communities like Teamliquid, SK gaming, OCN, Geekhack and ESR provided a valuable resource that made it possible to "assemble" this guide.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:17
reserved
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:31
reserved
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 16:51:43
reserved
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 23 March 2014, 17:31:43
I messed up in the original topic by not reserving enough posts. Because of this I started to exceed the max number of characters allowed. Therefore I had to make a new topic and lock the old one.

I added a "discussion: Mouse characteristics" section that will be expanded in the future. There are also a number of other things that I plan to add in the not so distant future.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Novus on Sun, 23 March 2014, 20:49:07
Sweet!
Glad to see the upgraded version of this thread.
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Mon, 24 March 2014, 10:46:06
I've just noticed you discuss CM Storm Spawn's firmware issues above. Have you taken the latest update into account? Speaking of that (the spawn has been discontinued in Europe due to bad reputation probably caused by the firmware), do you plan to mention availability of each mouse?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Skull_Angel on Mon, 24 March 2014, 13:31:44
I was wondering why the last thread got locked; glad to see you're expanding it!

I've also heard some people toss around rumors of the S9808 (used in Logitech's new S labeled laser mice) having no acceleration; is anyone able to confirm or deny that? I haven't be able to fish up any conclusive info on the matter, but am rather pessimistic about it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:21:44
Thanks for the support!

I was wondering why the last thread got locked; glad to see you're expanding it!

I've also heard some people toss around rumors of the S9808 (used in Logitech's new S labeled laser mice) having no acceleration; is anyone able to confirm or deny that? I haven't be able to fish up any conclusive info on the matter, but am rather pessimistic about it.

I think every mouse enthusiast is always looking to check whether the newest laser sensors from Avago still suffer from acceleration. This is the first time I hear that the s9808 does not suffer from acceleration. A quick google search shows me that there are a hand full of people making that claim, but this is not backed up anywhere in any sort of test, or with any sort of theoretical explanation of how the sensor avoids the acceleration problems present in the rest of the series. I believe that possibly this is due to a misinterpretation of Takasta's review of the new Logitech "S" series mice on OCN, where he addresses and applauds the sensor performance of the Avago S9808, but specifically does not test for acceleration.

Others have found that the acceleration is present in all the Avago 9500-98XX sensors to date. Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence of people claiming the G500s still has acceleration, though I never put too much stock into that. Consensus is still that the Avago 98XX series of sensors have acceleration, and I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise. But it is something that is worth keeping an eye on as the implementation of laser sensors progresses.

I've just noticed you discuss CM Storm Spawn's firmware issues above. Have you taken the latest update into account? Speaking of that (the spawn has been discontinued in Europe due to bad reputation probably caused by the firmware), do you plan to mention availability of each mouse?

I followed the discussion up to v102 and am aware of the release of the v201 firmware, which seems to be some kind of compromise of the characteristics of earlier firmware versions. The discussion of performance of any specific firmware is beyond the depth of the guide (though if a version is released that addresses any issue, it would have to of course be pointed out), and not something I am keen on following. The indication that firmware matters and there are different versions which differ in performance still describes the firmware situation of the CM Storm Spawn.

I have thought about adding availability in some way. But this might not be as straightforward as it might appear. Availability is different in many different regions (for example, not just Europe, but different parts of Europe), and it is hard to figure out the availability of some products in some regions (Asia). Furthermore, there are a lot of discontinued products that are still widely available outside of the traditional retail channels (for example WMO and previous version of deathadders on Ebay as well as a few other places), and in practice availability is often dependent on someone's willingness to import, which could in turn be dependent on how their country's customs deals with importing these kinds of things. Because of all this I find it hard to offer accurate, up to date, and reliable information regarding availability, and feel that people are probably better off checking the availability in their region themselves. What I could do however is add for each mouse whether they are still in production, and if not, whether I am aware if they are still sold anywhere.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: protti on Wed, 26 March 2014, 05:56:45
Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 26 March 2014, 17:02:53
Wow, what a valuable resource. I'm new here (only been a member for a few days - lurked for a few months prior), and one of the reasons I took the leap and made an account was for insight like this - there seem to be quite a few dedicated & just generally knowledgeable . It wasn't just for discussing and planning my next keyboard, but also because I'm in dire need of a new mouse and have no clue what the landscape is like anymore since it's been 5 years since my last purchase.

Need to buy two mice...the one I prefer will be the primary gaming mouse. Have used only the SteelSeries Xai since 2009 (bought two of them a few weeks before the Sensei came out), before that I used the Logitech G5 & mx518.

- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

I know I have plenty of other questions that will resurface in my mind here shortly.  Thanks again for your help.

First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: mr2009 on Sun, 30 March 2014, 19:19:53
Nice article. Madcatz R.A.T.3 is using ZHIJ switches for left and right button.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: protti on Sun, 30 March 2014, 23:58:36

First of all welcome to Geekhack !

Second, thanks for your kind words about the guide. I hope to improve and expand it over time.

Third, I will try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Regarding your first question, the only answer I can give is that there is really no general rule about which kind of mice (shape and size) work best for these kind of games. To take the competitive scene as an example, we have seen plenty of players who use larger mice, and plenty of players who use smaller mice. We have even seen a lot of players switch between completely different style mice. 2 examples that you know are probably Neo and SpawN. Both of them switched styles of mice. Spawn had used the WMO (small, ambidextrous, super light) and the deathadder (large, ergonomic, reasonably heavy). Another example are NIP. You can find the hardware they use on their website. It was recently updated and a couple of their members now play with the Rival (large, ergonomic, heavy) where they previously used mice like the Kinzu ( I think GeT_RiGhT and F0rest did, though I do not know exactly by heart). I am telling you all this not because I believe that people should do whatever the "pro's" do (since their choice is heavily influenced by sponsorship), but just to indicate that very different styles of mice can compete at the highest level, which probably means you are free to choose whatever you prefer. I should also point out (to be fair) that while different styles of mice are used, there is a slight trend in the competitive scene of players favoring smaller, lighter mice.

To answer the second question, the other thing you should be looking for (outside of shape, size etc.) is performance. What does performance mean when it comes to mice sensors? The answer to that question is pretty much this entire guide. I hope that it will give you a good starting point to find out what kind of characteristics are desirable in a mouse, what the things are that you would probably want to avoid, and which mice have a sensor that performs well. People give a lot of attention to acceleration and prediction, and they are generally detested, but there are other aspects of tracking that are just as important. Of course, personal preference and the way a mouse simply feels in your hand plays a large role too that is not to be ignored.

Appreciate the response Grim - I have to admit I felt awkward even asking my first question about which 2 or 3 mice might work best for twitch-based FPS games because that question comes up a lot from 14 year old gamers that thing it's as simple or black and white as that. Hopefully you understood that I really meant given your knowledge of mice and the need for quickness/precision over all else (in FPS) which mice MIGHT work best on paper in that situation.

So thanks for answering that because it was a tough question haha.

Interesting points about SpawN/Neo switching from two different styles. I think that's important to note...but also makes me wonder if it's because they are two of the greatest gamers ever that they were able to adjust to two different types of mouse, or if it really doesn't make a huge difference.

As for my decision, I'm now stuck between the SteelSeries Rival, Roccat Kone Pure & Zowie FK. The Rival really only because I'm comfortable with the products made by this brand and I've had the chance to use it for a few minutes. The Kone Pure really just a gut feeling: I feel from the pictures I like  the angles and would likely enjoy the feel. The Zowie FK i've also used for a few minutes of aim mapping and I enjoyed it *seriously a few minutes though means almost nothing*

I'll probably spend another day weighing options and doing a bit more research before just pulling the trigger on something - it's getting to the point where my brain is just fried. Maybe I'll buy 2.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 31 March 2014, 01:11:09
I have to admit I felt awkward even asking my first question about which 2 or 3 mice might work best for twitch-based FPS games because that question comes up a lot from 14 year old gamers that thing it's as simple or black and white as that. Hopefully you understood that I really meant given your knowledge of mice and the need for quickness/precision over all else (in FPS) which mice MIGHT work best on paper in that situation.

Interesting points about SpawN/Neo switching from two different styles. I think that's important to note...but also makes me wonder if it's because they are two of the greatest gamers ever that they were able to adjust to two different types of mouse, or if it really doesn't make a huge difference.

i feel the same way when asking questions like that, but the truth is that i do not think we should ;p
mice are actually a difficult subject as i've come to understand and, besides, when it comes to doing your research you have to start somewhere.
doing research works alot better when you get a few recommendations so you can look up the differences between those mice, which tends to hook you up with some valuable information (as in realising what factors are to be considered). recognising and then asking knowledge people for advice is a great start.

although i am not quite done with educating myself on mice, the three most important things i've come to understand is that there is no perfect (or even flawless) mouse, that you should not blindly follow other(pro) gamers and that it's all subjective in the end.

great gamers will adapt to most mice because they are incredibly experienced and often talented as well. a pro gamer destroying you with a certain mouse will not say much about the mouse but more about the player.
certain things like acceleration are typically said to be something to be avoided, but there are plenty of pro(!) gamers using mice with acceleration. facts like this just show that (good) gamers have a great capacity to adapt and also to get used to whatever hardware they use.
if you have the motivation to get great at a game, then you could do it with a bad mouse.

that said, it seems like it's a matter of choosing between evils. if you search well enough, you will find that every mouse has something that's wrong with it. but just because a mouse has a certain flaw just does not mean that you can not perform fantasticly with it.

i do believe it is very useful to look at what mice are being used by pro gamers (within your genre), but you really should realise that almost every one of them gets paid to use certain products.
and, like i said, most are able to adapt to most mice (unless they are just seriously crappy).

obviously there are definitely better sensors and better mice (in an objective sense) but the truth is that you might actually perform better with an objectively worse mouse.
i suggest you read up on mice until you get absolutely sick of it, before you purchase anything. unless you are rich. in that case; buy everything.

TLDR: you will not find a perfect/flawless mouse (in the objective sense). do not blindly follow pro gamers. 'the perfect mouse' is a matter of subjectiveness. if you care about good peripherals then keep doing research until you get sick of it.

PS: there are a bunch of threads/people on overclock.net with a seemingly infinite amount of knowledge and experience. if you really care about your hardware, then i suggest you look around on those forums as well. i have found that especially Skylit, r0ach and Berserker1 on those forums have an insane amount of valuable information.

Thanks alot for your thread, Grim. You've created a great source of information.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: protti on Mon, 31 March 2014, 03:48:17

i feel the same way when asking questions like that, but the truth is that i do not think we should ;p
mice are actually a difficult subject as i've come to understand and, besides, when it comes to doing your research you have to start somewhere.
doing research works alot better when you get a few recommendations so you can look up the differences between those mice, which tends to hook you up with some valuable information (as in realising what factors are to be considered). recognising and then asking knowledge people for advice is a great start.

although i am not quite done with educating myself on mice, the three most important things i've come to understand is that there is no perfect (or even flawless) mouse, that you should not blindly follow other(pro) gamers and that it's all subjective in the end.

great gamers will adapt to most mice because they are incredibly experienced and often talented as well. a pro gamer destroying you with a certain mouse will not say much about the mouse but more about the player.
certain things like acceleration are typically said to be something to be avoided, but there are plenty of pro(!) gamers using mice with acceleration. facts like this just show that (good) gamers have a great capacity to adapt and also to get used to whatever hardware they use.
if you have the motivation to get great at a game, then you could do it with a bad mouse.

that said, it seems like it's a matter of choosing between evils. if you search well enough, you will find that every mouse has something that's wrong with it. but just because a mouse has a certain flaw just does not mean that you can not perform fantasticly with it.

i do believe it is very useful to look at what mice are being used by pro gamers (within your genre), but you really should realise that almost every one of them gets paid to use certain products.
and, like i said, most are able to adapt to most mice (unless they are just seriously crappy).

obviously there are definitely better sensors and better mice (in an objective sense) but the truth is that you might actually perform better with an objectively worse mouse.
i suggest you read up on mice until you get absolutely sick of it, before you purchase anything. unless you are rich. in that case; buy everything.

TLDR: you will not find a perfect/flawless mouse (in the objective sense). do not blindly follow pro gamers. 'the perfect mouse' is a matter of subjectiveness. if you care about good peripherals then keep doing research until you get sick of it.

PS: there are a bunch of threads/people on overclock.net with a seemingly infinite amount of knowledge and experience. if you really care about your hardware, then i suggest you look around on those forums as well. i have found that especially Skylit, r0ach and Berserker1 on those forums have an insane amount of valuable information.

Thanks alot for your thread, Grim. You've created a great source of information.

Bukake - Thanks for the post. Lots of really great points backed up with some sound, rational thought...that's always a good thing :)

The part that really resonated with me was in regards to the research/selection process: far too often I feel I'm making a decision based on negativities/imperfections rather than positivity/usefulness for my needs. And you're right, especially with hardware like mice there will always be something "wrong" even with your ideal model.

I too also survey what mice pro Counter-Strike (my competitive game of choice) players are using, however I only use that info within the context of their sponsor's brand. For example:
- One of the best CS:GO teams in the world, NiP, is sponsored by SteelSeries. Let's say of the five total players, four use the Rival and 1 uses the Sensei. And let's also say that we found out that two months prior, two players were using the Rival and three were using the Sensei (meaning that recently two of the players that were still using the Sensei had switched to the Rival).

I would use that type of hypothetical information to possibly give me insight into a particular brand's (SteelSeries) product line as it relates to a specific game ONLY (CS:GO). But I would never look at the fact that all five players use a SteelSeries mouse and think wow are maybe the best team in the world so SteelSeries mice must be better than all other brands...of course not, I may be dumb, but I'm not that blind  ;D

Your post did however remind me of one area I need to explore and that's pertaining to mouse sensors. Sensors, their quality and how they function w/in the mouse seems like an important area, and I have essentially zero knowledge of it.

Great post Bucake thanks for chiming in <3. I love having civil discussions like this that help me learn and subsequently make better decisions.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 01 April 2014, 06:31:05
Added the Corsair M45 to the list.

This mouse follows a trend that we see in many brands now. While there are the flagship models with all the bells and whistles, brands like Mionix, Cooler Master, Corsair, Steelseries etc. all seem to be adding "enthusiast mice" to their line up to appeal to those people who care most about sensor performance. It seems like more and more people are becoming aware of the differences in tracking quality between mice. Some brands like Zowie make their money appealing to only this market, but the bigger brands are now also taking part.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 01 April 2014, 15:58:20
far too often I feel I'm making a decision based on negativities/imperfections rather than positivity/usefulness for my needs.

that's fine! that one flaw in a mouse might just weigh more than those 99 positive things about it.

Quote
Your post did however remind me of one area I need to explore and that's pertaining to mouse sensors.

i hope you have a strong stomach :D

also, just to make you feel more confident: considering hardware that's used by pro players is typically a good thing. there are exceptions, as always, but generally speaking you can assume that mice used by pro quake/cs:go players are good mice. sponsors can't afford to make absolute crap because their teams/players have to stay at top level, while using their products.
of course not every mouse would do the trick for you, but i'm sure there are a bunch out there that would.

and since i somehow forgot to reply to your initial post: the zowie fk, razer deathadder (specifically  the 2013 version) and the logitech g400 are (still) popular mice in the quake and cs:go scenes.
i have seen people say that the older version of the deathadder has a 'more responsive' sensor so, if you consider that mouse, look around a bit for more info on it.
if you liked your g5/g518 in terms of weight/shape, then the g400 would not fail you. i've read that the g400 is superior to the g400s, so keep that in mind if you're thinking of buying one. you can read some more about the specifics of it here (http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2). i believe it has to do with the firmware.
there have been quite some reports on the zowie fk about the (troublesome) coating, but not everyone has this issue with the mouse. i, unfortunately, also experience some 'loss of grip' when using the zowie fk (this is why i switched to the g400).

it seems that things like weight, shape and coating/materials on a mouse can make people percieve one mouse(sensor) to be more responsive than others. placement of sensor and liftoff distance also matter.

what's unfortunate for guys like us is that there isn't really an actual way to test how responsive or accurate a sensor really is.
because in between input and output is also firmware and your whole computer(!). first of all: 'bad firmware' can nullify the potential of a great sensor. secondly: alot of things on your own computer (like the settings in your BIOS, services/software which are running and drivers) can cause input lag. so; when someone says a mouse is laggy, it just might be something that's somewhere between the sensor and what he sees happening on his monitor.
personally, i just keep on reading (on forums) until i 'bump into someone' who seems to know what he's talking about. i think user-experience really is our best friend here. but the more i learn about mice, the harder it becomes to trust anyone who talks about them.. [/pessimistic] :D

It seems like more and more people are becoming aware of the differences in tracking quality between mice. Some brands like Zowie make their money appealing to only this market, but the bigger brands are now also taking part.

it does indeed seem like this is the case :j i hope to see alot of evolving the next few years.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:10:20
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:21:14
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...

i think it should, for the sake of completeness of the guide.
those who do not care can simply discard the information, and those who care can read up on it and then decide for themselves if they let it be a factor in their choice.

i'd say it would be fine to keep it short and even to claim it as uncertain, but i do think it should be mentioned.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 02 April 2014, 05:15:04
BTW are the complaints about over-the-top smoothing in mice with A3090 w/ 4000dpi ROM worth including? Personally, I think those people are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking and need to get a life, but whatever...

I agree that when put into perspective, the problem is minor compared to all the other ways in which a sensor can be flawed. I know that most people will not even notice it. I just acknowledge that it is there, and include it because people complain about it pretty consistently. Though I am not sure to what extent people are really reporting their own findings and to what extent they are parroting others.

In the section about smoothing, I mention that most people will not be able to perceive the delay associated with smoothing. It is kind of hard to put these kind of things in the right perspective. On the one hand you want to include all the information you have on sensor performance. On the other, it is hard give an indication of how noticeable or problematic any issue will be. Some flaws make a mouse really a pain to use, while others can hardly be noticed even when looking for it. I will think about whether I want to keep this smoothing information in the guide. I have also not been perfectly consistent with adding info about smoothing for every mouse where smoothing is an issue, partly because this is such a delicate, sometimes barely susceptible thing for which it is hard to find any solid info (whether a mouse suffers from it or not).
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 08 May 2014, 06:21:13
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 08 May 2014, 12:47:47
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.

nice!

but where is the G502? :D it's an important mouse, you should definitely add it when you have some time available.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: feizor on Thu, 08 May 2014, 16:48:47
Very detailed list! Has zowie fixed the peeling coating issue on the fk? I'm looking to pick one up.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 08 May 2014, 18:41:24
Just added a 4.7 Side-Buttons section.

It is not great, as I just typed up whatever info I could think of. However, I felt like I should add something to the guide every once in a while even when I do not have the time to really add anything significant. There are still things I plan to add in the future, and of course, the guide will be updated as mice are released.

nice!

but where is the G502? :D it's an important mouse, you should definitely add it when you have some time available.

Yeah, I am keeping an eye on the G502! I plan to add it later. We are slowly learning more about the mouse and its sensor, and the first in depth reviews I have seen were only from last month. I will give it a little time and see what kind of feedback it gets and whether any problems surface. But expect it to be added later this month.

Very detailed list! Has zowie fixed the peeling coating issue on the fk? I'm looking to pick one up.

The coating issue has been fixed:
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57

Try to avoid buying from an old batch. I would personally order directly from Zowie if you have to opportunity, just to make sure. I will add this in the guide.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Thu, 08 May 2014, 20:54:35
The coating issue has been fixed:
http://www.zowiegear.com/index.php?i=news&p=57

Try to avoid buying from an old batch. I would personally order directly from Zowie if you have to opportunity, just to make sure. I will add this in the guide.

It's good they've acknowledged this, although I'm still waiting a while to see if the new batches don't have the same issue, including my own. After the rigmarole of the RMA they had better be :p
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: shreebles on Sun, 11 May 2014, 08:17:00
Thanks a ton for this guide.
Like most people I came to geekhack for the keyboards, did not expect to find such an in-depth guide on mice here.
I actually just ordered a B-Stock Roccat Savu after reading this. It was only 26€ so definitely worth it for me, insteadof shelling out 60+€ on a Zowie or similar. I will probably try to use the Savu with any of the native DPI settings to avoid any jitter. I also heard that the new 4000dpi of the Avago is actually inferior to the previous firmware with 3500 dpi. We'll see about that but for this kind of price it seems like a steal either way.
The shape and texture of the savu should be perfect for me. I have the G500 but I have the weirdest claw/fingertip grip on it. I actually don't use the large thumb groove but rather grip the side of it with my thumb to get better precision. It's really not my kind of mouse but I got it for free and it has aged really well. It doesn't look 4 years old. It will be a good backup or office mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 11 May 2014, 18:57:33
Thanks a ton for this guide.
Like most people I came to geekhack for the keyboards, did not expect to find such an in-depth guide on mice here.
I actually just ordered a B-Stock Roccat Savu after reading this. It was only 26€ so definitely worth it for me, insteadof shelling out 60+€ on a Zowie or similar. I will probably try to use the Savu with any of the native DPI settings to avoid any jitter. I also heard that the new 4000dpi of the Avago is actually inferior to the previous firmware with 3500 dpi. We'll see about that but for this kind of price it seems like a steal either way.
The shape and texture of the savu should be perfect for me. I have the G500 but I have the weirdest claw/fingertip grip on it. I actually don't use the large thumb groove but rather grip the side of it with my thumb to get better precision. It's really not my kind of mouse but I got it for free and it has aged really well. It doesn't look 4 years old. It will be a good backup or office mouse.

Thanks for the kind reply. I hope you like the Savu! Some of the mice on the list are rather expensive, but fortunately, there are some cheaper ones on there as well that provide great performance for the price.

I also noticed this was your first post. So let me be the first to tell you: Welcome to Geekhack  :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Tue, 27 May 2014, 00:30:46
I appreciate this guide. Pretty nice summary for those looking for the perfect mouse. Going to link people to this every time they ask about it now.

I was just wondering if you could possibly assist me? Would be very much appreciated. **Quote below for full situation, but not a necessary read.
Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
Thanks <3

Quote
I've been through about 5-10 different mice in the past 5 years, and I always come back to the Razer Deathadder(left handed), as it's just so consistent.(and there's a severe lack of choice as a left handed gamer).
I'm always on the lookout for something smaller though. I'm a claw-grip user, and the mouse is simply too long[127mm/5Inch].
Ideally I would say the Razer Abyssus' size is perfect for me - [115mm/4.5Inch], however it lacks the two thumb buttons needed.

The Razer Taipan has stolen my heart for the past year or so, and it's probably the only mouse that could take away the crown. It's so comfortable, light and just small enough for me[124mm/4.8Inch]
The only downside to it i've found is the stupid sensor and it's built-in negative-acceleration.

I know there's a lot of arguing on the situation, but primarily as an FPS gamer, I don't care what anyone says, it's highly noticeable when trying to play on this low a sensitivity.
In CS:GO my settings are 6/11Windows - 400DPI - 1.95 InGame, and doing a sweep across my mouse-pad is so inconsistent. I can go anywhere from 45degrees to about 180 degrees based on how fast I move the mouse.(ideally you want to be smack bang on 180 every time). http://imgur.com/a/0yJWr Album to help explain what I mean.
With the Deathadder, I KNOW that I will always face 180 degrees when I swing around, and you have the muscle memory built up to pull off certain snap-shots.
With the Avago sensor on the Taipan, it's anyone's guess as to where you will end up, which is sad because it's such a perfectly made mouse otherwise, in my opinion.
Quote
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Tue, 27 May 2014, 00:52:24
have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bullveyr on Tue, 27 May 2014, 03:02:37
Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
No you can't do that, sensors have different measurements and pin location, so you can't simply solder a different sensor on the PCB (besides a few other things you would also need a new FW).
What you can do is putting the whole internals (PCB) in the shell of another mouse as long there is enough room, ofc how much work it is depends on the 2 mice involved.
Kinzuadder (Deathadder in Kinzu shell) is a prominent example.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:06:59
have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?

have you looked into Avior 7000 by Mionix? it has a very similar shape to the Taipan as far as I can tell, and I think has thumb buttons. sensor is the super hyped and praised 3310 by Avago which should be super consistent. it's in the list, and apparently should be similar to the Deathadder in some aspects of its performance?
Ergonomic right handed i'm afraid :c I need either an ambidextrous, or ergonomic left handed(lol, like that will ever happen). Pretty sure the razer deathadder is the only "left ergonomic" optical mouse out there.


Do you knew much about modifying sensors, e.g. taking an optical sensor out of mouse A[s3888], and placing into laser mouse B[s9818]. Would it be practically possible? or would I just be bricking two mice :P
No you can't do that, sensors have different measurements and pin location, so you can't simply solder a different sensor on the PCB (besides a few other things you would also need a new FW).
What you can do is putting the whole internals (PCB) in the shell of another mouse as long there is enough room, ofc how much work it is depends on the 2 mice involved.
Kinzuadder (Deathadder in Kinzu shell) is a prominent example.

Had a feeling that was the case. I got bored today and opened up a defunct deathadder and abyssus just to examine how they work/look.
May attempt to go for the shell-swap, however it would require some heavy modding, as the positioning of pretty much every single aspect is out of line(for example, the upper PCB on the deathadder is attached to the top shell of the mouse, and covers mouse4&5). Whereas the bottom PCB is attached to the mouse-base, and covers left/right/middle mouse button.
However taking apart the taipan, abyssus and deathadder alone, all three have differently located switches to activate pretty much every button.
Much more difficult to explain with words, will take pictures tomorrow and edit them side by side to show what I mean.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Tue, 27 May 2014, 21:13:15
are you looking at the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? avior is definitely ambidextrous. check again! :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Tue, 27 May 2014, 23:47:25
are you looking at the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? avior is definitely ambidextrous. check again! :)

Oops, I'm completely retarded... haha.  Very nice spot, thank you <3

Looks pretty much identical to the Taipan, which is a plus, lack of a dedicated thumb-grip is a bit of a downer, but not a deal-breaker.

I think I shall be purchasing this relatively soon to try out.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bullveyr on Wed, 28 May 2014, 03:39:35
@Emmiya

I know what you mean but the switches would be the easy part because you can simply hard-wire them to the main PCB, gluing in stems on the top cover to actuate the differently positioned switches (left/right button).

Biggest problem would be getting the main PCB in the right position for the mouse wheel while still maintain the mounting specs for the sensor, that would most likely need quite the modding of the the lower shell base.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Wed, 28 May 2014, 07:41:12
@Emmiya

I know what you mean but the switches would be the easy part because you can simply hard-wire them to the main PCB, gluing in stems on the top cover to actuate the differently positioned switches (left/right button).

Biggest problem would be getting the main PCB in the right position for the mouse wheel while still maintain the mounting specs for the sensor, that would most likely need quite the modding of the the lower shell base.

Yeah, I think I'll stick to the Deathadder for now, and switch over to the avion7000 When I can no longer handle the size.

I have a slight feeling we should stop posting in this thread anyway :3 Supposed to be a guide on mice, not helping me decide which mouse to buy next <3
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 29 May 2014, 04:24:21
I have a slight feeling we should stop posting in this thread anyway :3 Supposed to be a guide on mice, not helping me decide which mouse to buy next <3

It is completely fine to post in this thread as long as the discussion is about mice  :thumb:

Sorry that I did not reply. I have been away for a while. Luckily there are others who were able to help you out. This is something that I actually hope would continue in this thread. With people like Bullveyr sharing their knowledge.

I will make some time this weekend and add something to the guide. I really need to add the G502 at least.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TheDark on Wed, 04 June 2014, 16:09:04
Made an account here just to say this is the best mouse guide I've come across. Fantastic work!

If it's cool I also want to make a suggestion for improvement - the one bit of information missing about each mouse that is important to me is if the mouse features onboard memory for storing profile settings.

I also want to note that the CM Storm Recon and the Steelseries Kinzu V2 are missing from the list. They both also use the Avargo ADNS-3090.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miled on Wed, 04 June 2014, 21:49:02
You should include a section about static vs moving friction. Although this is 50% dependent on the surface that you're using (the other 50% owing to the feet of the mouse), it plays an important role in how a mouse handles. If your mouse feet/surface combination has a badly matched static and moving friction, then it can take a lot of force to get the mouse to start moving from a stationary position. But then, once you get the mouse moving, the coefficient of friction becomes that of the moving friction, and if this is lower than the coefficient of static friction then the mouse will seem to "run away", making small adjustments to your aim very hard to do. Another thing worth noting is that too much glide can be a bad thing. If your mouse glides so easily that you have to apply a force opposing the direction of motion to stop it in a timely fashion, then you are essentially adding another source of uncertainty to your aim. Using the natural moving friction of the mouse feet and mousepad to stop the mouse allows for a much more accurate stop.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Sun, 08 June 2014, 07:53:43
So... just thought i'd bump this in case anyone was interested.

Decided to try a Recon (http://gaming.coolermaster.com/en/products/mice/recon/), was always put off by the aesthetics, but looking at the dimensions of it, it is the perfect size for me. I think i'll have to do a little mod and remove the "left" thumb buttons. I keep grabbing them on my Taipan and they're tiny, so with the recon's being as huge as they are, I have no doubt i'll be mis-pressing them all the time. I'm hoping I can turn that 20g of acceleration off in the settings somewhere though, or else I've just dumped a more money into a 9th spare mouse u_u
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: damorgue on Sun, 08 June 2014, 08:03:54
First generation of the Logitech G400 had prediction and another sensor (the Avago 3080E sensor). You need a PID above LZ13333 for a G400 without this problem. Here is where you can find the information you need to see whether you have a "good" version

Logitech stopped using PID and I believe all G400 which have a product code in the new P/N format all have the better sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Fri, 13 June 2014, 21:16:38
Quote
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yX_DQXSWJ4) I just made to show the difference between the 2.

Laser first with all forms of acceleration turned off(except the inherent negative laser-acceleration)
Optical second.

I'll let the results (http://gyazo.com/fa2ccdcb2bfcf46aaf4e483104797523) speak for themselves.

Which brings me quite a lot of shame, because I ****ing love the feel of my laser mouse, but it's not worth the 18% accuracy drop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vqDHjAL7-U)
Just figured i'd quote my other post, so people can see why i'm so pissy about the optical sensor vs the laser.
The negative acceleration kicks in in fully "normal" circumstances.
Also, tried out the recon, what a waste of £15 :p
next up... the Avior 7000, looks like a carbon copy of the Taipan, only with a decent sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: renoldscott on Sat, 14 June 2014, 02:45:00
You have shared interesting topic.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 16 June 2014, 03:04:49
Added the G502 to the list.

Also, thanks for all the contributions in the comments. I read every single one and a lot of it will find a place in the guide.

Made an account here just to say this is the best mouse guide I've come across. Fantastic work!

If it's cool I also want to make a suggestion for improvement - the one bit of information missing about each mouse that is important to me is if the mouse features onboard memory for storing profile settings.

I also want to note that the CM Storm Recon and the Steelseries Kinzu V2 are missing from the list. They both also use the Avargo ADNS-3090.

Thanks for your kind words, and welcome to Geekhack! Adding whether or not there is on-board memory would be nice. This may make it into the guide if I have time. I guess that if I do it I should also note which mice you do not need onboard setting for (either because they have no settings, or because you can change the setting on the mouse itself).

The Kinzu V2 will not be added to the list. It does not use the 3090. I believe it uses the Pixart 3305 which comes with its own problems (not to be mistaken for the 3310).

I can not remember why I did not add the Recon, but I will look it up again and reconsider it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Tue, 08 July 2014, 03:26:30
So, I tried out two more mice since the last update(lel)

CM Storm Recon.
Whilst the length was good for me(fingertip grip), it was way too wide. The firmware was absolute balls, Sensor was as expected, nothing spectacular.

Mionix Avior 7000.
So I took the plunge and got it based on recommendations, I'm glad I did, perfect sensor. Right length, Width is a tiny bit on the long side, but still workable. I'm still a fanboy of the rubberized thumb grips from the Taipan, but guess you can't have everything :3 Gameplay wise having that consistency is so much more valuable and it really does show.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: loki993 on Tue, 08 July 2014, 07:15:02
Any plans on getting the FK1 and/or the Rokkat Kone Military on the list in the near future, ie the new batch of 3310 mice? I would like to see your thoughts on that one.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: katushkin on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:45:55
This is fantastic, thanks Grim.

I do have a question - what are the differences between the three generations of the R.A.T? I have recently bought a 5 but haven't used it at all, and was wondering how it compared/differed to the description you gave for the 3?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:18:57
This is fantastic, thanks Grim.

I do have a question - what are the differences between the three generations of the R.A.T? I have recently bought a 5 but haven't used it at all, and was wondering how it compared/differed to the description you gave for the 3?

Thanks ! The differences between the mice are not only some of the features, but also the sensor that is used. I looked it up , and the RAT5 uses a Philips Twin Eye PLN 2031 sensor. This is a sensor that is known for having the "z-axis" problem. What happens, is simply that lifting the mouse from the surface will cause the sensor to pick up movement and your cursor to move. To some people, this can be very annoying. It does not suffer from acceleration as far as I know.

Any plans on getting the FK1 and/or the Rokkat Kone Military on the list in the near future, ie the new batch of 3310 mice? I would like to see your thoughts on that one.

Yes, I was quite excited to see the FK1. It is one of the mice I plan to add. The Roccat kone military is also one of the mice that needs to be added. I am quite impressed with the 3310 sensor mice in general. The 3090 sensor was very popular among enthusiasts, but there were still some common issues, like a high lift of distance that plagued almost all of the mice that implemented the sensor, and a max perfect tracking speed that was somewhat low on some of them. The mice that implement the 3310 sensor seem to avoid these two problems, while adding smaller DPI steps and a higher max DPI. Those last two things are not too important for me personally, but some people care about them.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Tue, 08 July 2014, 23:45:48
Con for the g502:
-Bad quality control

This appears to be a fairly common defect:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60179.0

The metal mouse wheel has so much play in some units that it rattles.

There are many reports of problems with the mouse feet in the Logitech forums, too.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Exanimis on Wed, 09 July 2014, 04:22:38
I think that Cooler Master Storm Alcor on the first post has a incorrect image. If I checked correctly Alcor is without the rubber sides, this picture is of the laser version Mizar.

I recently ordered Alcor as it seems its one of the best price from the list and I also liked the shape. We will see how flawless sensor it is ;)
My other choice would be Zowie FK but the price is nearly twice of Alcor in my region :/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: McWilloughby on Wed, 09 July 2014, 11:47:18
I just picked up a Roccat Kone Pure Military (the green one) today so I'll post some thoughts here after I've used it for a few days.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Thu, 10 July 2014, 21:11:26
The g502 tracking error is now acknowledged by Logitech. The latest firmware update was supposed to fix it, but didn't.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: stakiman on Sun, 13 July 2014, 01:30:57
I will chip in my 2 cents I guess.

I am a semi-pro Starcraft II player and if you are unfamiliar with the game - it is a quick action paced RTS, where a lot of mouse accuracy and precision is needed. Not to mention that you maybe move your mouse more than any other game, when you play an RTS. Let's say that some branded mice, from "big/famous/rich" companies cannot keep up with 12 hours of boxing every day for more than an year. ^^

The Zowie MiCO, however, is maybe the best mouse for the job. It has the same "very clicky and distinguishable" switches from the other Zowie mouses, but is extremely light and perhaps a little bit smaller than normal mice. I have no idea what sensor it uses, but I can tell you - it does not fail easily. Plus no other mouse (except the Logitech G9X) comes close to it for the RTS genre.
I should add that it is with a glossy surface, meaning it is not ok to use it while you eat anything. It lacks any software/drivers and has only 3 buttons. An extremely simple product. Three states of DPI, which are changed when you hold down the two main buttons and scroll the wheel around. The simplicity and the lack of other buttons is also a huge plus for me.

Here is an album of a bunch of Koreans (mostly the top pros) using mainly Logitech G9X, Zowie MiCO, and a few other exceptions. Maybe you have to scroll into the album a bit to find the mico users, but i'm sure most of you will enjoy it anyway. ^^
http://imgur.com/a/ixDhR

Seriosuly, consider this mouse as one of the best extremely light/affordable/very-precise/heavy-duty mouses.
Thank you!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sun, 13 July 2014, 13:59:15
...

This thread is about mouse sensors in particular, not overall mouse quality. In terms of sensor performance, the MiCo is not in the same league as the mice listed on the first page.

If you want a small, lightweight mouse with a better sensor, look at either a Team Scorpion Zealot Jr. or a Commatech fkmini v3. Either of those will get you an Avago A3090 sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 13 July 2014, 16:17:38
I will chip in my 2 cents I guess.

I am a semi-pro Starcraft II player and if you are unfamiliar with the game - it is a quick action paced RTS, where a lot of mouse accuracy and precision is needed. Not to mention that you maybe move your mouse more than any other game, when you play an RTS. Let's say that some branded mice, from "big/famous/rich" companies cannot keep up with 12 hours of boxing every day for more than an year. ^^

The Zowie MiCO, however, is maybe the best mouse for the job. It has the same "very clicky and distinguishable" switches from the other Zowie mouses, but is extremely light and perhaps a little bit smaller than normal mice. I have no idea what sensor it uses, but I can tell you - it does not fail easily. Plus no other mouse (except the Logitech G9X) comes close to it for the RTS genre.
I should add that it is with a glossy surface, meaning it is not ok to use it while you eat anything. It lacks any software/drivers and has only 3 buttons. An extremely simple product. Three states of DPI, which are changed when you hold down the two main buttons and scroll the wheel around. The simplicity and the lack of other buttons is also a huge plus for me.

Here is an album of a bunch of Koreans (mostly the top pros) using mainly Logitech G9X, Zowie MiCO, and a few other exceptions. Maybe you have to scroll into the album a bit to find the mico users, but i'm sure most of you will enjoy it anyway. ^^
http://imgur.com/a/ixDhR

Seriosuly, consider this mouse as one of the best extremely light/affordable/very-precise/heavy-duty mouses.
Thank you!

Thanks for your contribution. While it is certainly encouraging to see a mouse being used successfully at the highest level of competition, this is not sufficient ( or necessary) for the mouse to be included in this list. I try to keep this thread very simple by focusing on the sensors used and the way they behave. Based on this, and only this, do I decide to add mice to the list. I should note that I say "I" but in reality this decision reflects the consensus in a number of communities (FPS oriented).

This does not mean that any mouse that is not on the list can not be and will never be used to compete at a high level. We see this happen all the time (Kinzu for example, in addition the the mice you mentioned), especially in the non-FPS scenes.

Update to the guide will be coming soon. Thanks for the suggestions and extra information in some of the recent posts. Much of it will be taken into account when the guide is updated.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: stakiman on Sun, 13 July 2014, 16:47:23
Ok, I absolutely understand. ^^
I need to get more familiarized with the different models of mouse sensors.

Thank you for this thread, it is really informative!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 14 July 2014, 17:07:41
I think that Cooler Master Storm Alcor on the first post has a incorrect image. If I checked correctly Alcor is without the rubber sides, this picture is of the laser version Mizar.

I recently ordered Alcor as it seems its one of the best price from the list and I also liked the shape. We will see how flawless sensor it is ;)
My other choice would be Zowie FK but the price is nearly twice of Alcor in my region :/

Thanks, I had not noticed the difference between the two. It has been corrected.

Also added the FK1
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 15 July 2014, 07:57:04
The g502 tracking error is now acknowledged by Logitech. The latest firmware update was supposed to fix it, but didn't.

I have heard this complaint a couple of times now. Also, it seems that there are a number of threads such as the one in the official logitech forum, where a large number of people experience the same issue. I will add this in the guide, as I think it is common enough that it should be included. Thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: waffletastic on Tue, 15 July 2014, 15:32:23
MouseTest.exe that's listed under software resources is coming up with several virus detections.

https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/d797bd6315e418434da3cec49e4e00ccadd45aea6ae33d359597b81c74712ebf/analysis/1405455997/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 17 July 2014, 07:42:35
MouseTest.exe that's listed under software resources is coming up with several virus detections.

https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/d797bd6315e418434da3cec49e4e00ccadd45aea6ae33d359597b81c74712ebf/analysis/1405455997/

Thanks for looking out. I have seen this being discussed a couple of times before. But every time people concluded there was no virus. It could be a false positive as you sometimes see with other legitimate selfextracting files. I am no expert though, and will put a caution in the guide.

In the meantime, here is an alternative:
http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2087517
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tuffrabit on Fri, 18 July 2014, 09:06:34
Just bought a Corsair M45.  Tracking is fantastic, though I'm coming from a G700... so it's gonna be different.  The scroll wheel and grippy finish both seem durable, we'l see how that does over time.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: woll3 on Fri, 18 July 2014, 13:35:28
about the R.A.T. 3´s performance:

Malfunction Speed around 2.5m/s at 1800/900/450, LOD around 3 cd´s, recalculated 450 and 900 steps are very inconsistent and are suffering from Pixelwalk issues, general tracking at 1800 is fine, jitters alot on 3500cpi.

Pixelwalk is also the reason why some people report a lag on the 3090 zowies, interpolation and using the sensor outside of the recommended specs are the cause in this case, depends on many factors to notice it.


Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results


Thats because it actually isnt acceleration, a more correct term for example would be Trackinglinearity, CPI are never 100% stable with any system, the only question is, if it is perceivable/has an impact or not. One System can have a Variance of 5%, another 0.5%, and so on.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: JackCY on Sat, 19 July 2014, 18:43:42
1) What is the cheapest mouse with 800dpi and no acceleration, angle snapping or other smoothing nonsense? (So I can kill it and implant the guts into an old IME3.0)

2) What is the biggest mouse with 800dpi and no acceleration, angle snapping or other smoothing nonsense? (IME3.0 size or bigger, EC1 is small)

500Hz USB is just fine. No need for crazy high tracking speed, I probably can't swipe fast enough to get past IME3.0 at 500Hz.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 23 July 2014, 09:43:14
Hey guys, just as a heads-up, Amazon has the Corsair M45 in today's deals of the day for $33.99. I ordered one, so I'll soon have my very first "superior" mouse. I'm really excited!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Wed, 23 July 2014, 18:48:59
Trying out the Roccat Kone Pure Military Edition. So far no cons, but not sure about the sensor, as I've used it so little...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Thu, 24 July 2014, 08:01:50
Seems there's some smoothing...I can't put my finger on it, but I'm just not hitting shots with it like I do the g502.

Great mouse, though. Scroll wheel is perfect, buttons nice and clicky and require minimal pressure to activate, nice limber cord, great ergonomics, nice and light.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Fri, 25 July 2014, 03:59:27
Don't worry guys. I think I may finally have my "perfect" mouse (http://www.razerzone.com/ap-en/gaming-mice/razer-abyssus/)!

It's 99% what I wanted :D
Old Razer Abyssus dimensions.
The shape/rubberised thumb rest of the Razer Taipan.
Only thing letting it down, is the lack of thumb & dpi buttons, but I'll just have to get used to not using them.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Fri, 25 July 2014, 05:46:10
Great mouse, though. Scroll wheel is perfect, buttons nice and clicky and require minimal pressure to activate, nice limber cord, great ergonomics, nice and light.
quite the glowing review. i'm struggling to choose between this one and the Avior 7000. the FK1 seems good too but seeing as i'm used to the original Deathadder's Omron switch, the Huano wouldn't be a good match for me
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 25 July 2014, 07:29:04
about the R.A.T. 3´s performance:

Malfunction Speed around 2.5m/s at 1800/900/450, LOD around 3 cd´s, recalculated 450 and 900 steps are very inconsistent and are suffering from Pixelwalk issues, general tracking at 1800 is fine, jitters alot on 3500cpi.

Pixelwalk is also the reason why some people report a lag on the 3090 zowies, interpolation and using the sensor outside of the recommended specs are the cause in this case, depends on many factors to notice it.



Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results


Thats because it actually isnt acceleration, a more correct term for example would be Trackinglinearity, CPI are never 100% stable with any system, the only question is, if it is perceivable/has an impact or not. One System can have a Variance of 5%, another 0.5%, and so on.

Hey Woll3, nice to see some of the people from other places sharing information here. When I update the guide I will take into account this comment. I should also start making a list of contributors. Might have to dig through the old topic to find some as well.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 25 July 2014, 07:44:15
1) What is the cheapest mouse with 800dpi and no acceleration, angle snapping or other smoothing nonsense? (So I can kill it and implant the guts into an old IME3.0)

2) What is the biggest mouse with 800dpi and no acceleration, angle snapping or other smoothing nonsense? (IME3.0 size or bigger, EC1 is small)

By now I know most mice and their characteristics, so I can give some feedback based on that. However, I have pretty much no clue about the prices. I guess you could look up the prices of some of the mice in this thread. Maybe a (used) G400 if you can find it. It was never expensive to begin with, and there were a lot around.

If you consider the EC1 small, then there are not too many options. If you like the shape of the IME 3.0, then the Alcor might be worth checking out, since I think that is actually the mouse that comes closest to that shape and size. The only other mouse that is of comparable size that I can think of is the Steelseries Rival. Pretty much all other mice I can think of are of near EC1/Deathadder size or smaller.

Without having tried all of the mice myself, I actually do not think I can give 100% reliable feedback on the issue of smoothing for all of the mice in the guide.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Fri, 25 July 2014, 14:59:48
Great mouse, though. Scroll wheel is perfect, buttons nice and clicky and require minimal pressure to activate, nice limber cord, great ergonomics, nice and light.
quite the glowing review. i'm struggling to choose between this one and the Avior 7000. the FK1 seems good too but seeing as i'm used to the original Deathadder's Omron switch, the Huano wouldn't be a good match for me

I'm not confident in the sensor, though. Enough so that I went with the otherwise less-desirable g502.

The liftoff distance is fixed, which is good, but coming from a Zowie EVo EC 2 CL and The original Kone Pure (yes, I use two mice) I simply wasn't landing shots with it. With the g502, the weight is too much for me and I'm unfamiliar with the grip, but I'm still landing more shots than before even being in the adjustment phase.

Just dismissable anecdotal evidence, of course...simply saying you might want to research the performance of its sensor before you jump in. 

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Fri, 25 July 2014, 15:41:38
as far as i know, the 3366 sensor used by the g502 is one of a kind right now, and seeing as a lot of brands have released new mice with the 3310 sensor (second best apparently), i don't think there will be any new mice with the 3366 sensor coming soon. the question then becomes a matter of choosing the best 3310 mouse (FK1 vs Avior 7000 vs Roccat Miliraty). i think you're the first person to dismiss the 3310 sensor, and while i value your opinion as much as any other i read online, it's not enough to sway me from getting one of these two mice :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Lotus on Fri, 25 July 2014, 17:06:39
How can I double check what sensor my mouse uses? I just purchased the Perixx MX-1800 (http://www.amazon.com/Perixx-MX-1800B-Programmable-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00ESESQAA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406325779&sr=8-1&keywords=perixx+mx-1800) and it claims it uses the Avago A3090 sensor, however I thought that was an optical sensor and so would produce visible light. The only light coming from my mouse is from the LED Color to indicate mode (and look cool). Did they just strait up lie to me on their specs? I bought the mouse because for $22, it seemed to have all the specs I wanted: a3090 sensor, omron switches, etc. How can I check to see if I got swindled?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 25 July 2014, 17:12:38
Ummm... infrared diode?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Lotus on Fri, 25 July 2014, 17:15:03
Ummm... infrared diode?
I thought those were used in laser sensors and the A3090 is an optical sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 25 July 2014, 17:33:54
Optical sensors use LEDs. It can emit infrared or visible light. My Roccat Savu doesn't "shine" either.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Fri, 25 July 2014, 22:53:53
as far as i know, the 3366 sensor used by the g502 is one of a kind right now, and seeing as a lot of brands have released new mice with the 3310 sensor (second best apparently), i don't think there will be any new mice with the 3366 sensor coming soon. the question then becomes a matter of choosing the best 3310 mouse (FK1 vs Avior 7000 vs Roccat Miliraty). i think you're the first person to dismiss the 3310 sensor, and while i value your opinion as much as any other i read online, it's not enough to sway me from getting one of these two mice :D
If you trust the sensor, I say go for it. Great mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Emmiya on Sat, 26 July 2014, 06:48:41
So, the new Razer Abyssus 2014 arrived at my house today.
At first glance (http://imgur.com/a/sOIgi) it looks quite amazing.
Pretty much a carbon copy of the Taipan shape, only a bit smaller. One thing that actually has upset me a lot more than it should have, is the thumb grips.
On the taipan they are made out of a nice rubber material to actually enable gripping, however on the abyssus it is simply patterened plastic in the same style(you can see the light reflecting off it in pic 2).
Other than that though, no complaints. Good shape/size/feel for my hand.

So enough about aesthetics. On to the real testing... Despite using a tried-and-tested optical sensor(s3888) (http://www.imgur.com/a/roUls), which I have had no problems with in the past(deathadder, previous abyssus versions) Unfortunately it suffers from negative acceleration at 400dpi on both cloth and hard surfaces. I don't have precise numbers because i'm simply a n00b, however it is enough to render the mouse unusable in a competitive fps game. Other than that, the tracking does seem to be quite good. No jitters/angle snapping/ good LOD etc.

p.s. if you own one of these and take it apart, enjoy the fun of putting it back together :D The internal PCB is literally left just loose inside the mouse, and you have to physically compress it down in order to hook (http://imgur.com/mSoJPSS) the red tabs under the blue slots. Otherwise the L&RMB  will not be low enough to activate the switches.

Regardless, I'm going to try it for a few days and see whether this negative acceleration issue is as big of an issue as I make it out to be.

Once again:  here's an example of it in action : Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAHIMIPWrv0&feature=youtu.be)


Edit: OK... I don't even...

Something wasn't sitting right with me about the s3888 having such an obvious acceleration issue, when I own 5 other mice here using the exact same sensor, and none of them suffer from it.
Deleted the Razer synapse software, and it seems to have fixed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKjEMRHtLbA&feature=youtu.be) it. Guess i'll just have to figure out what the natural dpi is now and try alter my sensitivity to adjust for that.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: woll3 on Sat, 26 July 2014, 12:40:31
Great mouse.

There are big performance differences when it comes to A3090 mice, particular in the lower end, best example would be the new Abyssus 2014, not to mention that you get what you are paying for, while in the lower end mice can be equipped with Omrons and 3090´s, that money will be saved in other places, for example the LED´s, which brings us back to the MX-1800 which has conflicting reports about the LOD and tracking speed, cheap LED´s(the one that illuminates the mousing surface) might be one of the causes for that.

Guess i'll just have to figure out what the natural dpi is now and try alter my sensitivity to adjust for that.

1800, and yes its this "synapse filter´s" fault, same happened with the 3G and 3.5G with synapse, not to mention the PCBang edition(Synapse only), which has some similarities in its behaviour with the Abyssus 2014.....
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 28 July 2014, 15:16:35
What about adding the Roccat XTD Optical?

It's out, uses the PAW3988 sensor (believe that's Pixart, right)? They seem to have fixed the scroll wheel. Only thing I found so far is some people noticed some smoothing at higher CPI, but that it has less jitter with higher CPI (judging other forums). But there are also people who do not experience smoothing at all, so perhaps it is subjective or very little smoothing.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 29 July 2014, 07:12:57
about the R.A.T. 3´s performance:

Malfunction Speed around 2.5m/s at 1800/900/450, LOD around 3 cd´s, recalculated 450 and 900 steps are very inconsistent and are suffering from Pixelwalk issues, general tracking at 1800 is fine, jitters alot on 3500cpi.

Pixelwalk is also the reason why some people report a lag on the 3090 zowies, interpolation and using the sensor outside of the recommended specs are the cause in this case, depends on many factors to notice it.


Skylit, one of the more knowledgeable mouse experts at OCN maintains that all cmos based sensors have an inherent form of acceleration. Though I will not pretend to know exactly how that works, as I usually go by testing results


Thats because it actually isnt acceleration, a more correct term for example would be Trackinglinearity, CPI are never 100% stable with any system, the only question is, if it is perceivable/has an impact or not. One System can have a Variance of 5%, another 0.5%, and so on.

Good info, thanks. I guess I accidentally use mine in the sweet spot then, very happy with tracking and accuracy of mine so far.

I am severely tempted to buy the new RAT TE, though. I think I'll wait for a few more people to get them and we can get some more data on that new sensor, but so far it's looking very good.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Fri, 01 August 2014, 02:58:58
Great thread OP! Thanks for the effort. You put a lot of good information here for uninformed people.


- Which 2 or 3 mice would be best suited for twitch-based FPS games like Counter-Strike and Quake or is it still almost exclusively personal preference?? (90% of my gaming time is playing Counter-Strike 1.6 & CS:GO competitively)

- If it's not exclusively based on personal preference (especially size, shape, feel, etc), what else is it based on? What should I be looking for?

Currently you're going to have to make a compromise because there is no ideal mouse at the moment. Almost all new mice have some kind of smoothing delay or artificial processing that causes them to feel inaccurate in FPS games. The MLT04 sensor (Intellimouse 3.0, 1.1, WMO) and Razer Copperhead are the only two sensors I've used that have not had this issue. The MLT04 has significantly higher malfunction speed though (1.5 vs 0.7).

New/recent mice pros & cons:
1. High malfunction speeds (3-6m/s)
2. High and adjustable DPI
3. Native 500-1000hz
4. They all have some kind of smoothing delay that makes the mouse feel imprecise in FPS games.

MLT04 pros & cons:
1. The sensor accuracy will give you an advantage in FPS games.
2. Only 400 DPI
3. The perfect control speed is 1.5m/s which is significantly higher than the copperhead (0.7m/s iirc) but lower than newer mice.
4. Have to overclock to 500hz yourself (not doable in win8 currently, unless it comes with your motherboard (fatality z87 killer).

If you decide on a newer mouse, then as far as which mouse really depends on your personal preference. They all have their own flaws with shape for many of us. I reviewed some of the latest and most popular ones here (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd).

Note that this is common knowledge in the competitive FPS community (CS 1.6 and quake), but most casuals aren't aware of the fact due to lack of experience with the MLT04, or they play casual games that are poorly coded and thus mask the inferior tracking of other mice. This guy is a competitive quake (and other games) player who has reviewed multiple mice and came to the same conclusion:

youtube.com/user/Ramla777
Ramla777 posted a comment
1 year ago(today is dec 26 2012)
Currently I use the abyssus. I only use the wmo when I play 1.6. It just feels so much more accurate in that game. I use the abyssus for every other game. CS:S Quake COD SC2
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 01 August 2014, 06:23:01
I do actually have the impression that the older RAT3 (pln2030 sensor) is a hair more accurate than the new one (3090). Hard to give solid evidence, but it just feels more crisp (it's actually the most precise mouse I have used).

A bit odd considering the switch to optical sensor was supposedly for increased accuracy.

This is why I am so excited about the new Tournament Edition, seems like it could be a worthy successor to my old RAT3 (new doppler sensor, sniper button, adjustable back piece, light weight, OMRON switches instead of Zhij). But both RAT3's are still going strong, so I have no real excuse to buy a new mouse  :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Fri, 01 August 2014, 09:06:48
I do actually have the impression that the older RAT3 (pln2030 sensor) is a hair more accurate than the new one (3090). Hard to give solid evidence, but it just feels more crisp (it's actually the most precise mouse I have used).

A bit odd considering the switch to optical sensor was supposedly for increased accuracy.

This is why I am so excited about the new Tournament Edition, seems like it could be a worthy successor to my old RAT3 (new doppler sensor, sniper button, adjustable back piece, light weight, OMRON switches instead of Zhij). But both RAT3's are still going strong, so I have no real excuse to buy a new mouse  :)

I've always found it surprisingly hard to get correct results from subjective impressions. For example, my Hades H8 Phorcy (with an unidentified sensor that they claim was made by STMicroelectronics) feels like it's extremely accurate and responsive, but it's actually deeply flawed, as revealed by objective tests, and in-game performance is accordingly much worse than you'd get with a 3090 + decent firmware/ancillaries.

I can't say whether your case is the same, since I don't use RAT mice, and there may well be some problem with the 3090 version that keeps it from living up to the potential of the sensor, but it's at least something to keep in mind. Do you notice any difference in game results that cannot be attributed to differences in familiarity with the device or increased amounts of practice in the game?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 01 August 2014, 19:27:13
Great thread OP! Thanks for the effort. You put a lot of good information here for uninformed people.

Thanks for the support!

I quite enjoy the fact that more and more mouse enthusiast are finding their way to this thread and are contributing to the discussion. All of it helps to build the amount of information that we gather here. That is what the thread should be. Even the information in the guide is more of a compilation of information rather than specific knowledge that came from me personally. So contributions in any way are appreciated.

**I made some small updates here and there and added the Roccat Kone Pure Military to the list (3310 sensor).
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: cbot on Fri, 01 August 2014, 21:08:46
OP this thread is a masterpiece. I can tell you have taken much time and dedication into this. Why not become a reviewer or something on some big tech sites? Have you thought about that?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zhd on Sun, 03 August 2014, 07:09:20
can someone help me out with this:

"Has noticeable smoothing not unlike the DA 2013 or G400s."

what does this sentence mean? the smoothing is higher than da 2013, or lower? (english is not my native language)

i currently looking into zowie fk1, roccat kone pure military and Mionix Avior 7000. i opened a topic for suggestions and these two recommended to me. and i addet kone pure military because it has the same sensor as other two: 3310. as i understand, it is the best optical sensor avaliable right now.
so, are they have excessive smoothing? are they have lag or responsibility issues?
and how they compared to razer da 2013 in that regard?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 03 August 2014, 09:26:25
DA2013 has more smoothing AFAIK.

the FK1, Kone Pure Military and Avior 7000 have noticeably less smoothing/lag, and I think either of those will be very good - just pick the one you think you will like the shape better of! :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 03 August 2014, 11:11:15
can someone help me out with this:

"Has noticeable smoothing not unlike the DA 2013 or G400s."

what does this sentence mean? the smoothing is higher than da 2013, or lower? (english is not my native language)

i currently looking into zowie fk1, roccat kone pure military and Mionix Avior 7000. i opened a topic for suggestions and these two recommended to me. and i addet kone pure military because it has the same sensor as other two: 3310. as i understand, it is the best optical sensor avaliable right now.
so, are they have excessive smoothing? are they have lag or responsibility issues?
and how they compared to razer da 2013 in that regard?

DISCLAIMER: I have no idea if there are forum policies forbidding me to do so (links to other forums), but my references are OC (overclock.net) because I found them to provide me with the most specific and detailed information I needed to contrast between the G400s, DA2013, Kone XTD Optical, Kone Pure Military, and the Mionix Avior (Naos) 7000.

The G400s is argued to have smoothing up to the point that some (or a lot) of gamers hat the sensor user (S3090, Logitech's variant in the G400s: S3095), see here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2

The DeathAdder 2013 uses the S3988 sensor and has argued or found to have considerable more smoothing compared to the G400s, see here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1420084/best-optical-sensor-in-the-market-atm-deathadder-2013s-s3988-or-logitech-g400s-s3095

Recently, the Kone XTD (not pure) Optical has come out, also equipped with the S3988 sensor, but people have not agreed yet on whether it is the sensor in the S3988 that causes the smoothing or the implementation (algorithms) or software (Synapse) making it worse. See here (2x):

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457877/roccat-kone-xtd-optical
http://www.overclock.net/t/1503674/roccat-kone-xtd-xtd-optical

Lastly, the Naos Avior (and Naos) 7000 have the S3310 sensor, which has found to be amongst the best packages money can buy, see here (2x):

http://www.overclock.net/t/1469836/mionix-avior-7000-first-impressions-review
http://www.overclock.net/t/1447157/mionix-avior-7000-unboxing-first-closer-look-and-review

With regards to the Kone Pure Military, it also comes with the S3310 sensor, but I have no idea whether it is as good as or better than the Mionix Naos / Avior 7000, see here (2x):

http://www.overclock.net/t/1492197/roccat-kone-pure-military
http://www.overclock.net/t/1499343/roccat-kone-pure-military-review

In conclusion: I have both the G400s and the Avior 7000. I purchased the Avior 7000 because I wanted something better than my G400s. And I fell in love with the Avior 7000, because of the lack of smoothing. When I gently push the mouse, the cursor moves instantaneously. Never had a mouse this responsive ever before.

Based on what I've read, this is how I think they stack up (IMHO):

Avior 7000 > Kone Military > G400s > Kone XTD Optical > DA 2013





Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zhd on Sun, 03 August 2014, 13:46:13
OMG! that was really helpful! thanks man.

it is decided then, the avior 7000 it is! i will not look back.

a good mouse pad advice would be awesome too. i will use the mouse with "virgin grade 0.5 mm ptfe sheet". gonna cut parts from the sheet in shape of mouse feets. basicly, it is bulk hyperglide :D so i don't need to worry about fast wear out rate of feets with aluminium or hard plastic mats.
i wonder which kind of pad tracks best, or does it even makes difference in this regard? razer claims 25 percent better tracking with destructor 2. and i wonder aluminium is any worse than others in this regard(tracking)
i want "low start to move force" (excuse my english) i think this would help me to make micro adjustments with my very high sensitivty.
how about aluminium pads?

damn, my current mouse lasted 7 years. it is x7 oscar 740k. well done a4tech, at least in regard of durability.


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 03 August 2014, 14:47:41
OMG! that was really helpful! thanks man.

it is decided then, the avior 7000 it is! i will not look back.

a good mouse pad advice would be awesome too. i will use the mouse with "virgin grade 0.5 mm ptfe sheet". gonna cut parts from the sheet in shape of mouse feets. basicly, it is bulk hyperglide :D so i don't need to worry about fast wear out rate of feets with aluminium or hard plastic mats.
i wonder which kind of pad tracks best, or does it even makes difference in this regard? razer claims 25 percent better tracking with destructor 2. and i wonder aluminium is any worse than others in this regard(tracking)
i want "low start to move force" (excuse my english) i think this would help me to make micro adjustments with my very high sensitivty.
how about aluminium pads?

damn, my current mouse lasted 7 years. it is x7 oscar 740k. well done a4tech, at least in regard of durability.

Sure, no problem! I am happy to share my thoughts :) Again, for the mousepad I went through a lot of reviews and eventually I bought the Roccat Hiro. It is indeed quite expensive (40-50 dollars in the US? Cost me ± 47 euro's here in Europe). There are not that much reviews out yet, see here:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1317515/roccat-roccat-unveils-groundbreaking-hiro-3d-supremacy-surface-gaming-pad

I have been using it for roughly a week now and it is the best thing I have ever owned. I went from my wooden desk to this mousemat and it makes the world of a difference. It is both teflon-coated as well as canvas. The edges are somehow merged into each other so that it won't fray. Whether that will work I have to find out in the next year or so. But I have to tell you: the surface is extremely even and the back is incredibly sticky to my desk. And it tracks perfectly with both my G400s and my Avior 7000. I ran the S.Q.A.T. analyser (how well your mouse tracks, measured by Mionix's software through the sensor) and I obtained a score of 80% (ran it about 10 times to get me some variance).

I don't know what exactly you are looking for in a mousepad, but I want:
- an even surface
- no or as little fraying as possible
- smooth and good gliding
- soft

This mousemat has it all.

What are the mouse feet you are talking about? Is it really that good? Are they special in any way or are they just cheap? You might as well take a look here:

http://mionix.net/accessories/

Mionix sells their own 'mouse glides' and it is not that expensive. As a matter of fact, they even make it easy to lift the mouse glidez that are under the Avior.

You might also consider the Naos 7000 if you are more into palm grip. Both the Naos and the Avior are exactly the same, except the shape (Avior is claw grip, Naos is palm grip) and the mouse glides (Avior has sick huge glides, Naos a bit smaller).
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 03 August 2014, 15:49:33
I don't know what exactly you are looking for in a mousepad, but I want:
- an even surface
- no or as little fraying as possible
- smooth and good gliding
- soft

This mousemat has it all.

Doesn't every mousepad on the market meet those criteria?

Did you buy a couple of other random cheap-O mousepads to compare the superduper expensive one against them to see if there is any real life functional difference?

If you have discovered a truly superior mousepad that costs me $50.00 then I will buy it.

But right now I am using some 20 year old mousepads that meet all your criteria except they are frayed a bit on 3 edges.  Just 3 tiny spots of fraying that don't bother me at all.

But since you payed big bux for your mousepad you have got me thinking... maybe my old mousepads are not as slippery as yours?  My old mousepads have a hard smooth surface that seems totally ok to me.  But I don't have your mousepad here to compare against.  For all I know yours is MOAR slipperier.

The reason I am interested in this subject is that I simply cannot find a high-DPI lightweight mouse.  As near as I can tell they don't exist.  But I could cheat and compensate for an overweight mouse by using some sort of spaceage superslippery mousepad.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 03 August 2014, 16:29:40
OMG! that was really helpful! thanks man.

it is decided then, the avior 7000 it is! i will not look back.

a good mouse pad advice would be awesome too. i will use the mouse with "virgin grade 0.5 mm ptfe sheet". gonna cut parts from the sheet in shape of mouse feets. basicly, it is bulk hyperglide :D so i don't need to worry about fast wear out rate of feets with aluminium or hard plastic mats.
i wonder which kind of pad tracks best, or does it even makes difference in this regard? razer claims 25 percent better tracking with destructor 2. and i wonder aluminium is any worse than others in this regard(tracking)
i want "low start to move force" (excuse my english) i think this would help me to make micro adjustments with my very high sensitivty.
how about aluminium pads?

damn, my current mouse lasted 7 years. it is x7 oscar 740k. well done a4tech, at least in regard of durability.




for low start move force, plastic or aluminium/glass are pretty much unbeatable. but durability on the plastic ones can be a bit troublesome.
if you are in europe, I would recommend ModMyMachine Slamepad. fantastic for high sensitivity. just needs to be wiped off daily, doesn't wear out fast at all.
but in the US/Asia I suspect it might be very expensive.
otherwise the Icemat (Steelseries I-2) or any clone of it is a solid durable choice, perfect for high sensitivity as well.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 03 August 2014, 16:49:01
On the subject of smoothing. People who have experienced the delay associated with it know that it is a fairly subtle thing. I think it would be pretty hard to compare the extent of the problem between mice even if you have the luxury of comparing them side by side. It is much harder, if not impossible, to make a comparison based on anecdotal evidence that you find here and there on the web. I am not saying that you should ignore the things you read and hear about it. Just to be aware that not everything you read is 100% accurate. One clear indication of this is that you can find many conflicting statements about this and many other mouse characteristics.


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 03 August 2014, 16:56:01
On the subject of mousepads. This is something that I plan to include more of in the guide (though I need to learn more about them, and if possible I would like to get some more testing results). Which mousepad is best/good/ worth the price really depends on what you are looking for and what your individual preferences are. However, the number one thing is that your sensor has to track well on the mousepad. The tracking performance of any sensor is really dependent on the surface and for any type sensor that you can find, you can also find surfaces on which the performance of tracking is greatly reduced. The most obvious way in which the sensor is affected is the speed with which you can move the mouse without it stopping its tracking. Companies actually test their mice on different surfaces to see whether its performance is what they are looking for. The thing they put on the box ( "40g acceleration" ) are often best case scenarios that are not matched when using a normal mousepad.

For the optical mice that we see on this list, you would be surprised what kind of surface works best from a performance standpoint. There are a number of sources where the people who work at these companies state what kind of surface is best for performance according to their testing. They all respond that a black (dark) hard surface with a little structure (not perfectly smooth) generally works best. François Morier, who is a logitech engineer that has some videos on youtube even goes into more detail, saying that the pattern (irregular or not) does not really matter and that performance deteriorates when the surface is too rough. There are also some other things to take into account, such as how color can affect lift of distance and so on, and not every optical sensor will perform best on the same surface.

So why don't we all play on hard structured plastic? Basically, for the same reason that we do not all use the same mouse with the "theoretically" best sensor: We are human. We look for things that we find comfortable. Something that resonates with us because if feels right when we use it. There are a lot of surfaces that still give us a good enough performance while also managing to feel good. This is why cloth pads are still the most common pads we come across, whether it is at home or in the pro circuit. People look for mousepads of a certain size, that gives them a certain level or resistance and smoothness of glide when using the mouse on it. All of these things are subjective and up to the individual.

One thing people often ask is whether it is worth it to pay for very expensive mousepads over some of the cheaper options. I am undecided on the issue. When it comes to performance, it is not true that buying a 50 dollar mousepad will always outperform something like a Qck heavy. As of yet, I have seen nothing in terms of testing where I can objectively state that performance-wise, you should be spending that amount of money on a mousepad. This does not mean that there are never any differences, just that on the few tests that I have seen, there seems to be no relation between performance and price. Additionally, in terms of durability it is also not necessarily the case that the more expensive mousepads outperform the more reasonably priced ones. We know this because of the known durability issues on some of the expensive pads, and the known durability of some of the cheaper ones. So why should anyone ever buy a more expensive mousepad? I think that if they do it to gain some sort of advantage in terms of performance it might be a bit of a waste. However, it could be the case that there is a specific surface that people just really like, and they are willing to spend some extra money just for that reason. After all, there are some mousepads out there that have their own unique feel (Something like an Icepad).  At the same time, it is also true that the more "special/unique" surfaces are also the ones most likely to cause tracking issues, as they deviate more from the simple structured surface that many sensors favor. Additionally, and this is just from personal experience, I find that some of the more expensive "premium" mousepads can at times feel pretty much exactly like their much cheaper alternatives.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:10:16
On the subject of smoothing. People who have experienced the delay associated with it know that it is a fairly subtle thing. I think it would be pretty hard to compare the extent of the problem between mice even if you have the luxury of comparing them side by side. It is much harder, if not impossible, to make a comparison based on anecdotal evidence that you find here and there on the web. I am not saying that you should ignore the things you read and hear about it. Just to be aware that not everything you read is 100% accurate. One clear indication of this is that you can find many conflicting statements about this and many other mouse characteristics.

I agree. And although I do not want to obscure this with further anecdotal evidence, I really want to point out that I clearly feel the difference between my G400s and my Avior 7000. When I gently push the G400s 1-1.5cm NOTHING happens. When I push my Avior 7000 as little as 1mm it the cursor starts moving.

All I want to say is, although this should be taken with a grain of salt, some mouses clearly differ when you directly compare them, at least IMHO.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zhd on Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:11:29
i am in turkey but overclockers.co.uk does not ship to turkey :( i have found it on ebay for 75 usd at one seller and 100 usd at other with acceptable shipping costs. if i could buy it directly from germany, that would be great. i really want that pad because as i understand it is the best alu mat. also unlike steelseries sx and some other aluminum pad that i looked, doesnt have a coating/painting that might come off. and there is no other alternative material left for me other than alu and glass because i would hate uneven wearing with plastics and cloth is out of consideration right from the start.  i really would like to buy the glass pad, but it is discontinued and cant find it anywhere.

anyway, if you really suggest it, i will pay to a mat more than mouse itself and buy it :D i might also consider ss i 2 glass mat too if i can find it somewhere( i wonder if glass could cause problems with opticals). but as i understand, you find slamepad superior to anything.

i would also love to have your thoughts about teflon feets as a hyperglide user. so, do you think i can efficiently cut my own skates from a sheet teflon? at hyperglide.net, they explain their product as 0.50mm pure teflon. that stuff is avaliable as freaking sheets! i heard at glass and alu mats, teflon skates do wear out in a month and start to make noise. so i thought if can buy it bulk and cut out my own parts i can have perfect glide for years. i might even sell custom skates to dudes here for a resonable price :D they know no hyperglide, who knows they might like it.

btw, Op is like a tresure of info. thanks for awesome topic. :thumb:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:12:04
In my experience, "gaming" mousepads are a waste of money. I bought a large, generic mousepad from a local store in the US for $8 and it's better than any $25+ mousepad I've used.

It's called "supermat". It's on Amazon but people have mixed experiences with the ones there.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:25:25
On the subject of mousepads. This is something that I plan to include more of in the guide (though I need to learn more about them, and if possible I would like to get some more testing results). Which mousepad is best/good/ worth the price really depends on what you are looking for and what your individual preferences are. However, the number one thing is that your sensor has to track well on the mousepad. The tracking performance of any sensor is really dependent on the surface and for any type sensor that you can find, you can also find surfaces on which the performance of tracking is greatly reduced. The most obvious way in which the sensor is affected is the speed with which you can move the mouse without it stopping its tracking. Companies actually test their mice on different surfaces to see whether its performance is what they are looking for. The thing they put on the box ( "40g acceleration" ) are often best case scenarios that are not matched when using a normal mousepad.

For the optical mice that we see on this list, you would be surprised what kind of surface works best from a performance standpoint. There are a number of sources where the people who work at these companies state what kind of surface is best for performance according to their testing. They all respond that a black (dark) hard surface with a little structure (not perfectly smooth) generally works best. François Morier, who is a logitech engineer that has some videos on youtube even goes into more detail, saying that the pattern (irregular or not) does not really matter and that performance deteriorates when the surface is too rough. There are also some other things to take into account, such as how color can affect lift of distance and so on, and not every optical sensor will perform best on the same surface.

So why don't we all play on hard structured plastic? Basically, for the same reason that we do not all use the same mouse with the "theoretically" best sensor: We are human. We look for things that we find comfortable. Something that resonates with us because if feels right when we use it. There are a lot of surfaces that still give us a good enough performance while also managing to feel good. This is why cloth pads are still the most common pads we come across, whether it is at home or in the pro circuit. People look for mousepads of a certain size, that gives them a certain level or resistance and smoothness of glide when using the mouse on it. All of these things are subjective and up to the individual.

One thing people often ask is whether it is worth it to pay for very expensive mousepads over some of the cheaper options. I am undecided on the issue. When it comes to performance, it is not true that buying a 50 dollar mousepad will always outperform something like a Qck heavy. As of yet, I have seen nothing in terms of testing where I can objectively state that performance-wise, you should be spending that amount of money on a mousepad. This does not mean that there are never any differences, just that on the few tests that I have seen, there seems to be no relation between performance and price. Additionally, in terms of durability it is also not necessarily the case that the more expensive mousepads outperform the more reasonably priced ones. We know this because of the known durability issues on some of the expensive pads, and the known durability of some of the cheaper ones. So why should anyone ever buy a more expensive mousepad? I think that if they do it to gain some sort of advantage in terms of performance it might be a bit of a waste. However, it could be the case that there is a specific surface that people just really like, and they are willing to spend some extra money just for that reason. After all, there are some mousepads out there that have their own unique feel (Something like an Icepad).  At the same time, it is also true that the more "special/unique" surfaces are also the ones most likely to cause tracking issues, as they deviate more from the simple structured surface that many sensors favor. Additionally, and this is just from personal experience, I find that some of the more expensive "premium" mousepads can at times feel pretty much exactly like their much cheaper alternatives.

I agree. On a more personal note, the trade off for me lies between durability vs money. I am very well willing to pay $$$ for something that will last me a decade. Makes me feel relaxed, not having to worry about buying new stuff.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zhd on Sun, 03 August 2014, 17:29:48
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:07:44
On a more personal note, the trade off for me lies between durability vs money. I am very well willing to pay $$$ for something that will last me a decade. Makes me feel relaxed, not having to worry about buying new stuff.
+1!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:21:39
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: dmbr on Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:25:05
By the way, I have tried a ridiculous number of pads (30+); the best:

Logitech's. Both the hard and soft. Cheap, too!
And the Func 1030.

Hands down.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 03 August 2014, 18:58:08
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!

On the subject of mousepads. This is something that I plan to include more of in the guide (though I need to learn more about them, and if possible I would like to get some more testing results). Which mousepad is best/good/ worth the price really depends on what you are looking for and what your individual preferences are. However, the number one thing is that your sensor has to track well on the mousepad. The tracking performance of any sensor is really dependent on the surface and for any type sensor that you can find, you can also find surfaces on which the performance of tracking is greatly reduced. The most obvious way in which the sensor is affected is the speed with which you can move the mouse without it stopping its tracking. Companies actually test their mice on different surfaces to see whether its performance is what they are looking for. The thing they put on the box ( "40g acceleration" ) are often best case scenarios that are not matched when using a normal mousepad.

For the optical mice that we see on this list, you would be surprised what kind of surface works best from a performance standpoint. There are a number of sources where the people who work at these companies state what kind of surface is best for performance according to their testing. They all respond that a black (dark) hard surface with a little structure (not perfectly smooth) generally works best. François Morier, who is a logitech engineer that has some videos on youtube even goes into more detail, saying that the pattern (irregular or not) does not really matter and that performance deteriorates when the surface is too rough. There are also some other things to take into account, such as how color can affect lift of distance and so on, and not every optical sensor will perform best on the same surface.

So why don't we all play on hard structured plastic? Basically, for the same reason that we do not all use the same mouse with the "theoretically" best sensor: We are human. We look for things that we find comfortable. Something that resonates with us because if feels right when we use it. There are a lot of surfaces that still give us a good enough performance while also managing to feel good. This is why cloth pads are still the most common pads we come across, whether it is at home or in the pro circuit. People look for mousepads of a certain size, that gives them a certain level or resistance and smoothness of glide when using the mouse on it. All of these things are subjective and up to the individual.

One thing people often ask is whether it is worth it to pay for very expensive mousepads over some of the cheaper options. I am undecided on the issue. When it comes to performance, it is not true that buying a 50 dollar mousepad will always outperform something like a Qck heavy. As of yet, I have seen nothing in terms of testing where I can objectively state that performance-wise, you should be spending that amount of money on a mousepad. This does not mean that there are never any differences, just that on the few tests that I have seen, there seems to be no relation between performance and price. Additionally, in terms of durability it is also not necessarily the case that the more expensive mousepads outperform the more reasonably priced ones. We know this because of the known durability issues on some of the expensive pads, and the known durability of some of the cheaper ones. So why should anyone ever buy a more expensive mousepad? I think that if they do it to gain some sort of advantage in terms of performance it might be a bit of a waste. However, it could be the case that there is a specific surface that people just really like, and they are willing to spend some extra money just for that reason. After all, there are some mousepads out there that have their own unique feel (Something like an Icepad).  At the same time, it is also true that the more "special/unique" surfaces are also the ones most likely to cause tracking issues, as they deviate more from the simple structured surface that many sensors favor. Additionally, and this is just from personal experience, I find that some of the more expensive "premium" mousepads can at times feel pretty much exactly like their much cheaper alternatives.

about this; when I speak of performance, I speak only about a pads physical aspects. not even sure performance is the right word. but speed/micro-movement control/initial motion ease/stopping ease etc.
usually, I have no problems with pads and tracking. very few have been terribly bad. of course some better than others, but the difference is 90% very small. it's always for me about finding one that *feels* good, glide-wise and whatnot.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Sun, 03 August 2014, 20:41:35
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.
A perfectly extreme waste of money.

I agree. On a more personal note, the trade off for me lies between durability vs money. I am very well willing to pay $$$ for something that will last me a decade. Makes me feel relaxed, not having to worry about buying new stuff.
It's not true that the more you pay for something the more durable it is though.

My $8 supermat is in like-new condition after every time I put it in the wash and I've had it for ~5 years. It'll easily last a decade.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zhd on Sun, 03 August 2014, 21:55:48
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!


Royal Mail International Signed : 12gbp, 45 TL
Royal Mail International Standard : 4 gbp, 15 TL

i hope standart shipping has tracking.  signed one just too expensive. the shipping costs a mouse pad :D i can buy it anyway but i heard aluminium wears out too, like plastics. i was thinking that buying this pad is a lifetime investment, then of course worth it. bu if it will wear out in a year or two, than sadly it is way above me.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 04 August 2014, 03:49:04
I don't know what exactly you are looking for in a mousepad, but I want:
- an even surface
- no or as little fraying as possible
- smooth and good gliding
- soft

This mousemat has it all.

Doesn't every mousepad on the market meet those criteria?

Did you buy a couple of other random cheap-O mousepads to compare the superduper expensive one against them to see if there is any real life functional difference?

If you have discovered a truly superior mousepad that costs me $50.00 then I will buy it.

But right now I am using some 20 year old mousepads that meet all your criteria except they are frayed a bit on 3 edges.  Just 3 tiny spots of fraying that don't bother me at all.

But since you payed big bux for your mousepad you have got me thinking... maybe my old mousepads are not as slippery as yours?  My old mousepads have a hard smooth surface that seems totally ok to me.  But I don't have your mousepad here to compare against.  For all I know yours is MOAR slipperier.

The reason I am interested in this subject is that I simply cannot find a high-DPI lightweight mouse.  As near as I can tell they don't exist.  But I could cheat and compensate for an overweight mouse by using some sort of spaceage superslippery mousepad.

When looking out for a new mousemat, my primary goals were preventing RSI (by having a soft surface, comfortable for my wrist and hand) and a trade-off between easy gliding (32" screen, FPS) as well as pixel precision (pixel art in illustrator / photoshop). That, coupled with the idea (or illusion, we'll see in a year) that the Hiro would be resistant to fraying, drove me towards the Hiro.

To answer your question directly, yes I have compared them to cheap ass mousemats (2 euro over here) as well as with a plastic mousemat (but not of high quality, also cheap), and my old Razer aluminum mousemat (somehwere around 2004, no idea what it is).

It does not glide as easy as glass or aluminum with those very very slick coatings. But it glides very easy. If I push my mouse hard enough, it keeps gliding to the end of the mousepad. If I gently tap it (let's say the force required to bottom out 45g switch), it will stop gliding after 2cm. So for me it is the ultimate trade-off between gliding and precision (friction).

But I have to admit, I did not compare with other well-known mousepads like the Qck or Artisan series.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 04 August 2014, 03:55:28
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...

Yeah, I really really do not get this. I read that before I bought the mouse, but I also tried to read almost anything I could find on Google about the mouse, including the stuff I posted earlier in this thread on OC.

I have zero smoothing and zero jitter. Literally none. I have not yet used the mouse testing software pro's put in their reviews with the curves etc. Also, I have found zero other people complaining about smoothing, so I have no idea where that notion comes from.

The only drawback on both the Avior 7000 and the Naos 7000 that I could find is that sometimes the software will not update the firmware. But my mouse already came with the new firmware. And, you can reset your mouse easily, so you will not brick your mouse when FW update goes wrong, in contrast to some routers (I look at you, Linksys). The other drawback is that some people find that it does not track well on other surfaces. I tried it on white surfaces, black surfaces and my dark brown wooden desk. It tracks perfectly. However, it does NOT track on skin. But hey, who's gonna use their tummy as a mousepad :p

So I was a little wary of the possibility that the FW upgrade might fail, but I did not had to perform it neither could I have bricked it. And it tracks well, so also no problems there.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 04 August 2014, 14:37:32
But according to the OP, the Aviar has noticeable smoothing and jitter, while the Military does not...

Yeah, I really really do not get this. I read that before I bought the mouse, but I also tried to read almost anything I could find on Google about the mouse, including the stuff I posted earlier in this thread on OC.

I have zero smoothing and zero jitter. Literally none. I have not yet used the mouse testing software pro's put in their reviews with the curves etc. Also, I have found zero other people complaining about smoothing, so I have no idea where that notion comes from.

The only drawback on both the Avior 7000 and the Naos 7000 that I could find is that sometimes the software will not update the firmware. But my mouse already came with the new firmware. And, you can reset your mouse easily, so you will not brick your mouse when FW update goes wrong, in contrast to some routers (I look at you, Linksys). The other drawback is that some people find that it does not track well on other surfaces. I tried it on white surfaces, black surfaces and my dark brown wooden desk. It tracks perfectly. However, it does NOT track on skin. But hey, who's gonna use their tummy as a mousepad :p

So I was a little wary of the possibility that the FW upgrade might fail, but I did not had to perform it neither could I have bricked it. And it tracks well, so also no problems there.

Smoothing is a problem that not everyone will ever agree on. Where one person returns the mouse and finds it unbearable, someone else swears that they can not detect any delay even when looking for it. It is like this for literally every single model of mouse where people have mentioned this kind of delay to be an issue.

That said, I think you are right that the way I have added smoothing to the descriptions of some mice is not entirely satisfactory. I have been very inconsistent in where I did and did not include a remark about smoothing in the description. But of course, when it was included there was always a clear (compelling) reason (whether or not someone brings it up on the OCN boards should not be the only nor most important criterion). I also think that adding it to the description gives people the wrong idea about how the mouse tracks (even if they do read the "smoothing" section). This will be addressed. I think that I will probably take it out of the descriptions for now, and try to think of another way to include an indication when there are a large number of people who have mentioned that smoothing is an issue with a particular mouse.

EDIT: For now I have taken the issue of smoothing completely out of the mouse descriptions. I will think of a better way to add it to the guide, and try to think of a way to re-evaluate when a mouse has this issue. I have three motivations for taking it out for now. One, I have not found a way to consistently and reliably include it into the descriptions. Two, I think that for the vast majority of people using this guide when looking for a mouse, the delay that comes with smoothing is not something that is going to be an issue. Three, discussions about this issue has time and again proven to be unhelpful. By taking it out of the descriptions, I hope to prevent another one of these discussions and keep the focus on the more useful and informative things we can share with each other.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:00:59
look what i found: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111303849865

it is 50 usd with free shipping. i will look for a review of it. even if i cant find a review, i guess i will take my chance and buy it. it just seems perferct.

one thing worth noting though is that malfunction speed could be very low on the glass mats. I forgot to tell you about that :o
on my Icemat V2, I had a few problems with the Zowie FK for example. but it may not be an issue for high sensitivity. might affect jitter and such though.

I found a very cheap shipping option for the Slamepad here, in black (best for tracking, it seems? have had no problems with my red one though :p) http://www.ebay.com/itm/MMMS01-ModMyMachine-SlamePad-Aluminium-Gaming-Surface-Black-Angel-/121396733734?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_MouseMats&hash=item1c43cf2726

if you could afford that, maybe a better option? I can not find any problems with pure sensor tracking performance on mine!


Royal Mail International Signed : 12gbp, 45 TL
Royal Mail International Standard : 4 gbp, 15 TL

i hope standart shipping has tracking.  signed one just too expensive. the shipping costs a mouse pad :D i can buy it anyway but i heard aluminium wears out too, like plastics. i was thinking that buying this pad is a lifetime investment, then of course worth it. bu if it will wear out in a year or two, than sadly it is way above me.

this anodized aluminium pad has been a lot more durable than any other pad I've used. it's even scratch-resistant. I tried with my keys just around the logo to see... nothing :p
I think it seems a lot more durable than anything I've used before, maybe even the Icemat. though because of its durability, it seems to eat mouse feet quite fast.

but other pads like the Steelseries SX, Razer Manticor etc... that aren't anodized, do seem to wear out a lot faster.
I have had an SX and it wore out very fast. NOT recommended for that reason. that one was just polished aluminium. anodizing is a lot tougher.
6 months of use for my Slamepad showed no wear whatsoever. a new set of mousefeet and it felt like brand new. very very high end product. :)

can't help you with shipping questions since I don't know the UK shipping system, unfortunately!
but it is a real company so they can't actually trick you or anything like that.
if you want to order directly from ModMyMachine, the people working there are super nice and helpful, you could send them an e-mail and ask.

that said, the glass pad is probably really durable and looks super cool too. ;) I am not voting against it! just wanted to give you more options.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Novus on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:06:04
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:13:21
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.

Yeah, lets try to avoid that. Guide has been altered to reflect some of the legitimate concerns raised by some of the posters in this thread. Hopefully this way we can prevent an unfruitful discussion of the "yes there is" / "no there is not" kind and keep our focus on things that are more useful and informative.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 05 August 2014, 13:42:09
Wow this thread just became ocn overnight.

Yeah, lets try to avoid that. Guide has been altered to reflect some of the legitimate concerns raised by some of the posters in this thread. Hopefully this way we can prevent an unfruitful discussion of the "yes there is" / "no there is not" kind and keep our focus on things that are more useful and informative.

Indeed. Great guide, keep up the good work! I used the guide many times to inform my decision looking around for new mice.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 06 August 2014, 06:30:42
Surprisingly, we are over 25.000 views in just 4 months or so. Geekhack gets more outside traffic than I thought it would. Lets continue working to expand and improve the guide. All feedback is welcome.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: pr0ximity on Wed, 06 August 2014, 10:47:44
Just finding this now, really love the guide. I used to dabble in mouse enthusiasm when I was playing more competitive Counter-Strike, but haven't been looking around for a new mouse in a while.

One thing that surprised me was no mention of the Razer Diamondback (non-3G) or the Logitech MX518. Circa 2007, as far as I'm aware, these were considered some of the best mice around (http://www.esreality.com/post/1265679/esreality-mousescore-2007/). I wouldn't have mentioned them as at least the Diamondback is no longer being produced, however you mentioned the WMO 1.1 (my first mouse) which is also no longer produced.

Does anyone have any knowledge about how the original Diamondback sensor stacks up against the newer sensors?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Wed, 06 August 2014, 11:01:45
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: frosty on Fri, 08 August 2014, 13:42:46
is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Fri, 08 August 2014, 15:17:03
G402 so far seems to be, I was just reading a few reviews on it. can't comment on the DA Leftie 3.5g though.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 08 August 2014, 15:24:25
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.

Yeah. I had to look it up for the old diamondback, but I remember the 518 (it was a really popular mouse) had prediction as well. In this topic I do not try to judge whether mice are "good" or not in the broader sense. I am sure there are a lot of people who feel like the MX518 was a classic among gaming mice. However, the main idea of this thread/guide is a simple one: To make a list of mice (with some additional information) that specifically do not suffer from acceleration and prediction.

is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?

People sometimes use this word to describe mice and sensors.  I am not sure how to respond to it. What is flawless? You could argue that no sensor nor their implementation in mice is flawless/perfect.

From what I understand, I think that the people using the term "flawless" might mostly mean that the mouse has no prediction or acceleration. Though I am not 100% sure.

About the G402. I am still waiting for some feedback on the mouse. Even though I know that there are already some knowledgeable people that have done in depth reviews on it. I don't like to add mice to the list without people using and testing them at least for a little while. There has to be enough information out there to say anything useful about it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: frosty on Fri, 08 August 2014, 20:31:16
well, maybe i used the wrong word. what if i change the words to matchable to the likes of the da2013 and g400s respectively? does it equal, underperform or exceed ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Sun, 10 August 2014, 07:02:41
well, maybe i used the wrong word. what if i change the words to matchable to the likes of the da2013 and g400s respectively? does it equal, underperform or exceed ?
What mouse are you talking about? Your original comment said: "is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?"

You can find some info/comparison about those mice here though: http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50 as well as on Ino's g402 thread.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 10 August 2014, 09:47:29
I believe he is asking if the G402 and leftie DA3.5g are as good as DA2013 and G400s... the answer is probably yes, better I would think even :p
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: daerid on Sun, 10 August 2014, 11:15:32
I believe both of those had pretty severe prediction, so not very good sensors in that regard. though definitely not bad.

Yeah. I had to look it up for the old diamondback, but I remember the 518 (it was a really popular mouse) had prediction as well. In this topic I do not try to judge whether mice are "good" or not in the broader sense. I am sure there are a lot of people who feel like the MX518 was a classic among gaming mice. However, the main idea of this thread/guide is a simple one: To make a list of mice (with some additional information) that specifically do not suffer from acceleration and prediction.

is the left handed deathadder 3.5g and the new g402 flawless?

People sometimes use this word to describe mice and sensors.  I am not sure how to respond to it. What is flawless? You could argue that no sensor nor their implementation in mice is flawless/perfect.

From what I understand, I think that the people using the term "flawless" might mostly mean that the mouse has no prediction or acceleration. Though I am not 100% sure.

About the G402. I am still waiting for some feedback on the mouse. Even though I know that there are already some knowledgeable people that have done in depth reviews on it. I don't like to add mice to the list without people using and testing them at least for a little while. There has to be enough information out there to say anything useful about it.


When I hear/read "flawless" in reference to a mouse, I usually infer it to mean that it's applied to the sensor, and that it means that it has no prediction or acceleration, and also means that it tracks perfectly up to a very high velocity and can handle high acceleration perfectly as well.

I've used quite a few mice that have no accel or jitter or prediction at low speeds, but the moment I flick it across my pad the pointer jumps all over the place. Super frustrating.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: geekhackforumaccount on Sun, 10 August 2014, 14:36:29
Hi guys!

First: Thanks for that list and that informative post. You have saved me countless of hours when it comes to sorting out sensors and mice.

Second: I registered to ask why the CM Storm Recon is not on the list, it has a 3090, and judging by the reviews i've read so far it seems to belong on the list, right? The Termaltake Saphira is also sporting a 3090.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: frosty on Sun, 10 August 2014, 22:59:34
ok what i mean by flawless is, no prediction, acceleration nor jitter. so how does the left handed edition of the deathadder compare to a deathadder 2013 or a deathadder 3.5G? also, how does the G402 compare to G400S?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 11 August 2014, 04:55:03
ok what i mean by flawless is, no prediction, acceleration nor jitter. so how does the left handed edition of the deathadder compare to a deathadder 2013 or a deathadder 3.5G? also, how does the G402 compare to G400S?

As far as I know the left-handed Deathadder is simply a Deathadder 3.5g with the same tracking characteristics.

I have not answered you question yet about the G402 because Logitech is doing something new/different with the sensor, and I wanted to wait until a few people get their hands on it first. Essentially it uses a AM010 sensor. But they do something with it to increase the tracking speeds it can attain. So far, I have heard some positive and negative things.

From some tests however, it shows that people are able to make the sensor malfunction fairly easily, despite the solution that logitech applied. For now I will not add it to the list in this topic. I would argue that if you want a mouse with a shape similar to the G402, at this point, it makes sense just going for the G502 instead which has the 3366 sensor.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TotalChaos on Mon, 11 August 2014, 04:59:55
Does anyone know what causes jitter?

It is purely a software problem, right?

Not caused by hardware defects, right?

I "just assume" that its analogous to the debounce routine that every keyboard has to keep keypresses from "jittering".

Is jittering a common problem for 3500 dpi mice?

I am throwing a bunch of mice in my cart right now and doing research to try to narrow it down a bit.  I would hate to spend a lot of money on a 3500 dpi (or whatever) mouse and then not be able to actually use it at the high-dpi settings.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 11 August 2014, 05:24:56
Does anyone know what causes jitter?

It is purely a software problem, right?

Not caused by hardware defects, right?

I "just assume" that its analogous to the debounce routine that every keyboard has to keep keypresses from "jittering".

Is jittering a common problem for 3500 dpi mice?

I am throwing a bunch of mice in my cart right now and doing research to try to narrow it down a bit.  I would hate to spend a lot of money on a 3500 dpi (or whatever) mouse and then not be able to actually use it at the high-dpi settings.

You can watch this video around the 10:00 minute to learn something more about it:
t=611

Also read the section "vii. Jitter/Ripple" in this guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tech-support/333648-an-overview-of-mouse-technology

I hope that gives you a better idea.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TotalChaos on Mon, 11 August 2014, 09:06:57
Quote
Also read the section "vii. Jitter/Ripple" in this guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tech-support/333648-an-overview-of-mouse-technology

That is an awesome article!  Thanks for the homework assignment  :))   I only read the part about jitter.  I am about to go read the rest of it but I wanted to say something quickly before I forgot:

If I was working at a mouse company and the sensor produced a jittery signal, the very first thought that would pop into my head would be to code in a Prediction routine which would get rid of the jitter.

Is this the reason that lots of mice have Prediction?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Fri, 15 August 2014, 19:51:47
Is this the reason that lots of mice have Prediction?

I honestly do not know for sure. I always saw prediction as a remnant from the past. A feature that was at some point intentionally implemented that then carried over to later generations of sensors and mice. If you watch the video I linked before, what he says seems to confirm this suspicion.

Planning to make some additions to the guide:
-Thinking about whether or not adding mice using the AM010 sensor such as the G100S and the G402.
-Thinking about adding the DPI available for each mouse
-Thinking about adding a couple of mice that might deserve to be on the list in some ways, but for which there are legitimate reasons to keep them of the list as well (like the Krait 4G and Tt esport's Saphira)

Any feedback and opinions on whether or not these should be included is welcome.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Sat, 16 August 2014, 04:22:19
you can divide them into a recommended tier (i.e. the main list), and a second "for consideration" tier. i think the more information provided the better, as this thread's reputation has grown far in the last couple months (i would say it's the mice equivalent of NCX's monitor review subforum)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sat, 16 August 2014, 06:59:02
Planning to make some additions to the guide:
-Thinking about adding the DPI available for each mouse
Yes!  :thumb:

In the other thread I mentioned that you forgot to include the "weight" but what I meant to say was "DPI".  My apologies.

Do you conduct any scientific tests yourself to verify the info that you collect?

Like, supposing someone sent you a free mouse.  Would you perform an autoposy on it?
Weigh it?
Measure how much force it takes to click the mousebuttons?
Other?

Or do you simply collect info from other mouse scientists?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sat, 16 August 2014, 07:42:10
you can divide them into a recommended tier (i.e. the main list), and a second "for consideration" tier. i think the more information provided the better, as this thread's reputation has grown far in the last couple months (i would say it's the mice equivalent of NCX's monitor review subforum)

I appreciate the contribution of this idea. But there are a number of reasons why I want to avoid putting mice in tiers.

- I like to encourage people to pick something that works for them,  rather than something is theoretically the best mouse. I am not sure if I like what categorizing in tiers seems to imply and how it will affect people's decision.
- Dividing mice into tiers will lead to pointless discussions of where mice should rank.
- Even if we judge mice only based on tracking performance, how do we rank them? How bad is a low malfunction speed, compared to some slight jitter? I think this is something the user should decide for himself, and the answer will be different for different people.

Do you conduct any scientific tests yourself to verify the info that you collect?

Like, supposing someone sent you a free mouse.  Would you perform an autoposy on it?
Weigh it?
Measure how much force it takes to click the mousebuttons?
Other?

Or do you simply collect info from other mouse scientists?

This is why I wrote the acknowledgement at the end of the guide.

In the past I have bought and used many mice (after using the WMO 1.1 for a long, long time). I was always looking for info, trying to figure out what I should try next, which mice would satisfy my needs and so on. I thought it would be nice if someone gathered that info and put it in one place. And so I did. This guide is intended as a resource for someone who wants to buy a mouse and wants some info on the models available that satisfy the condition of not having acceleration and prediction.

For the information in the guide, I do rely on the information others have provided. Even for the mice I have used myself, that I have been able to try and test properly I still look at what other people say about them. For example, I try to see if there are any common quality issues that I may not have run into. Or perhaps there is some tracking issue that I myself may not have noticed. I think that for a thread like this, you need a community of people to contribute rather than one person with just one observation.

That is why in the acknowledgement and parts of the guide, I tell readers to think of this as a compilation of information taken from various resources. I do this to give credit to those communities, but also to signal that these are not just the findings from one individual person, which I think is less reliable than the consensus in an entire community.

 
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: darkwind86 on Sat, 16 August 2014, 16:43:12
What about the func ms-2? It apparently uses an avago 3090 unlike its sister mouse, the ms-3.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sat, 16 August 2014, 22:00:26
is it actually out yet? I saw on a webshop here that it's supposed to be in stock by the end of August/beginning of September.
if only they would choose the 3310 instead, looks like a really nice alternative to the Zowie EC1/EC2 type mice. (and Deathadder if you like that one?)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Sun, 17 August 2014, 15:51:40
Hello everybody, I'm new to the forum and it seems that I found the right place to ask this!
First of all, I would like to thank the OP, it really helped me narrowing the options I had...the thing is, I have a IE 3.0, still really good after 5 years of use, but the last year the famous double click started to happen =(. Now I'm searching for a new mice, would like something that could last a long time (don't need to be this much). I use claw/fingertip grip and I'm confuse between the DA 2013 and the corsair M40/M45 (btw, besides the LOD difference betwen the sensors of the m40 and m45, is there something else? I don't think the lod of the m40 is a dealbreaker for me). What you guys think about these two? Where I live the price would be, translating to dolars, 30 bucks more for the DA 2013, do you think that regarding the sensor (neither one have acceleration right? avago 3988, avago 3090 and the pixart 3310) , build quality and confort is it worth? Which one would benefit more? Any suggestions are welcome and sorry about the gramma. Thanks for the attention!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 17 August 2014, 22:11:15
hi - I think that the DA2013 is not really as good as some other options you have, like the Zowie EC1 eVo. it has a similar shape but better build and sensor performance as well.
there is also the Steelseries Rival but it's a bit heavy, heavier than IME3.0. though also similar shape. build quality seemed ok to me but some users have reported problems with it.

but going by the fact that you are looking at Corsair M40/M45, you might be open to other shapes right? :p

some of the best performers for right handed ergonomics here are for example Logitech G502, Mionix Naos 7000, Roccat Kone Pure Military, and perhaps even Logitech G402. (and the EC1 eVo as mentioned before)

all using 3090 or 3310 / 3366, except G402, which has an older but upgraded sensor that is fantastic.

I don't know much about the Corsair mouse but I just thought I'd help look at some other options
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Sun, 17 August 2014, 22:53:34
Thanks! Really? I've read some really good reviews about it, I've tested it very quickly and it felt lighter than my IME 3.0. Zowie EC1 eVo is costing a lot of money here, and the Rival being that heavier than IME 3.0 I think I'll pass, mostly because I think I'll benefit more with something that weights the same or less than ime 3.0, I use low sens, lift the mouse a lot during fps games.
Yes, I'm open to other shapes, no problem  :D! I was looking more at the mices section and the mionix avior seems pretty good! Don't know if it's shape is the right one for me, since I don't really use palm grip, even when browsing I remain with the claw/fingertip grip...
About the others that you mentioned, the best performers for right handed ergonomics, I don't really liked most of them (shape wise and mostly about the grip). Sorry, I don't want to sound annoying or trying to find problems in what you suggested, it's just I'm really picky about it.
Do you really think that the DA2013 isn't that good? Is the sensor, build quality..? And comparing it to the mionix avior is it inferior? Nevertheless, thank you for the advices, really appreciate it  :thumb:!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Mon, 18 August 2014, 13:18:17
No, the SS rival is much lighter than the 3.0.

The 128g weight that SS has listed on their website must be including the cord.

Also, I googled 3.0 weight and it's listed as 108g. Maybe different versions of the mouse weigh different amounts because my 3.0 legends edition is really heavy. Much heavier than the rival. I have problems fingertip gripping my 3.0 because of its weight, whereas the rival was fine for me in finger tip grip because it was light enough.

@reaver9 I wouldn't "upgrade" from the 3.0 to the rival unless you need the higher malfunction speed. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1421432#msg1421432
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Mon, 18 August 2014, 14:22:42
I think it feels lighter due to being easier to grip and different shape, but I don't think it's much lighter? I definitely like it more than the IME 3.0 but... :) they're both great mice!

DA2013 has a bit of input delay on the sensor, and build quality with razer products is subpar. not a bad mouse per se, but there are some better ones out there. if it's a lot cheaper it is an option worth considering. (I still wouldn't get one but price seems to be a matter here :p)

the Avior is not palm grip at all, very claw/Fingertip. the Naos however is super palm grip. maybe you confused the two? I use the Avior for a fingertip grip myself, and I love it. I can see it being even better for claw users.

I understand not liking the others - they seem very weird and look ugly :p but the Avior, Kone Pure Optical/Military, are two of the nicest claw grip mice I know of. are you sure it's claw grip you mean?
seems weird to claw grip on the IME 3.0, since you can't really lift it very well due to the right side.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Mon, 18 August 2014, 18:29:43
@MaximilianKohler Really? The weight thing is good, and I don't think my 3.0 is heavy, just about the limit I guess (it's the old one, not the legends like you have).

@munch That's right, I had a razer mice a long time ago, cooperhead, and man...even with this double click issue I prefer my 3.0  :))! I though they had done a good job with the DA2013 reading some reviews, that doesn't seems to be the case. Isn't really the price, more availability, if I choose to get Mionix for example, I have to import and that can be a pain here where I live, but I reeeally like it, from the aesthetics, the sensor and the grip. Do you use one?

I'm used to using the claw grip on the 3.0, my last two fingers hold the right side, while I hold the left with my thumb to lift it up when needed, guess it's just a habit. One more question, about the sensors, the one on the mionix avior 7000 (pixart 3310), how much of improvement it is comparing with the avago 3090? I've read it somewhere that the 3310 have more smoothing than the 3090, but what really preocupies me is if the 3090 have any acceleration, I'm getting some people saying that yes and some that no, I'm a little confused right now.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Mon, 18 August 2014, 19:02:46
I have not yet experienced any 3090 with acceleration. the 3310 does not feel like it has any smoothing input lag to me. it's really snappy and fast, super happy with it.

well, a lot of reviews are from people with little experience and not as high standards as some of us geeks :p or just downright sponsored reviews. while it isn't a bad mouse, it's not great either, simply put.

I use the Avior 7000 yeah, best mouse I've used so far. very grip/lift friendly. and surface is great. buttons are nice and a bit lighter than my FK. scroll wheel is definitely a lot better than on the Zowie mice I tried.
everything just feels very snappy. and the customization is great too, not that I really use it much, just set and forget. :p
a shame you have to import it! I wish you could try it first. ergonomics/shape/feel in hand is the most important part of a mouse IMO.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Mon, 18 August 2014, 20:25:58
Nice to know that, so both sensors are really good and don't disappoint! I agree with you, we do have high standards and research a lot to avoid buying some "crap" hardware  :p ! Yeah, from what you're saying, there's a better way to spend my money, instead of buying DA2013  :D

With you saying that I'm really considering importing mionix (even if I have to pay more for that) everything about this mouse seems to be great, from the construction, sensor, to the ergonomics, looks like one hell of a mice!

From my options right now, I'm between the mionix avior 7000 and the corsair m40, sensor wise they are kinda tied, what would define it could be the format of the mouse itself, but since I can't test any of them, that would be more of a "blind" buy. Do you have any advice on that?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Mon, 18 August 2014, 20:42:35
Nice to know that, so both sensors are really good and don't disappoint! I agree with you, we do have high standards and research a lot to avoid buying some "crap" hardware  :p ! Yeah, from what you're saying, there's a better way to spend my money, instead of buying DA2013  :D

With you saying that I'm really considering importing mionix (even if I have to pay more for that) everything about this mouse seems to be great, from the construction, sensor, to the ergonomics, looks like one hell of a mice!

From my options right now, I'm between the mionix avior 7000 and the corsair m40, sensor wise they are kinda tied, what would define it could be the format of the mouse itself, but since I can't test any of them, that would be more of a "blind" buy. Do you have any advice on that?

Did you read my link (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1421432#msg1421432)? What game(s) are you buying a mouse for?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Mon, 18 August 2014, 21:18:04
@MaximilianKohler I'm sorry dude, I've opened it on my cellphone and then when I moved to the computer I completely forgot! I've read it now and thanks for the input! About the cooperhead, I don't know if I got a faulty one, but when I moved mine horizontally (especially in cs 1.6) my crosshair started going up, and I tried all the cmd comands, mouse fix, etc, at that time. Then I got the 3.0, and man, wonderful! DPI wise, I think that the 400 are perfect for me, don't need more. I play mostly cs 1.6, now moving to cs:go, played a loooong time competitive, still take it "seriously" online, but meh. Currently I'm using windows 7 and overclocking it to 500hz, plan on getting w8, that would be that bad? And comparing the sensors, I'm used to the one that the 3.0 has, to me, no problems at all! I've watched your videos, and it seems that after testing all the other mices, you still preffer the 3.0, is that right?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Mon, 18 August 2014, 21:29:16
corsair shape is very different, it's like skinnier in the back and fatter in the front, quite the opposite of the Avior... very tough to know what you like. the IE3.0 is fatter in the back and skinnier where you place your fingers, and the Rival too. at least that's how I remember it? so the Avior seems more similar to me.

I don't know how much else I can help here, sorry! but feel free to ask any more questions you have.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Tue, 19 August 2014, 09:04:31
@MaximilianKohler I'm sorry dude, I've opened it on my cellphone and then when I moved to the computer I completely forgot! I've read it now and thanks for the input! About the cooperhead, I don't know if I got a faulty one, but when I moved mine horizontally (especially in cs 1.6) my crosshair started going up, and I tried all the cmd comands, mouse fix, etc, at that time. Then I got the 3.0, and man, wonderful! DPI wise, I think that the 400 are perfect for me, don't need more. I play mostly cs 1.6, now moving to cs:go, played a loooong time competitive, still take it "seriously" online, but meh. Currently I'm using windows 7 and overclocking it to 500hz, plan on getting w8, that would be that bad? And comparing the sensors, I'm used to the one that the 3.0 has, to me, no problems at all! I've watched your videos, and it seems that after testing all the other mices, you still preffer the 3.0, is that right?

Yes, I still prefer the 3.0 by a big margin. I messaged both Zowie and Logitech about this issue. I'm hopeful that we might finally have a valid replacement for the MLT04 sometime next year.

That problem you had with the copperhead might have been due to it's very low malfunction speed.

My friend is staying on win7 in order to keep 500hz on his WMO. I moved to win8 because 500hz is built in to my motherboard.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Tue, 19 August 2014, 11:24:40
@munch oh yeah, I know  :D! I was trying to say that these two would be the ones that I would choose so far, I think that I can adapt to the ergonomics of both of them, sorry if wasn't clear!

@MaximilianKohler really? that's nice to know...hope that they get the sensor right this time. About the cooperhead you must be right, I know that when that happened, was a deal breaker for me.
I have a few questions if you don't mind answering! I'll be acquiring a 27" monitor soon enough, and will start playing games at 2560x1440...I know it's quite high resolution, do you think that 400 dpi would be too low for that? Ingame and while browsing? I mean, I would have to change that much my sens? And do you think if I got a mionix for example, if I use 800 dpi via software to help with the increased resolution and kinda balance this increase by lowering my sens ingame would be the same? Would it result in the "same" perception with a 400 dpi or would be a lot diferent? Or just stick with 400 dpi anyway? I ask that because of the new monitor and gaming at higher resolutions, if that would be that big of a deal. Don't know if that would be any help, but I was used this cfg when I player: 640x480 ingame, windows sens 6, 1000hz, no accel and 2.4 sens ingame, with the 3.0, 400 dpi I guess.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Tue, 19 August 2014, 14:50:12
800dpi and 1.2 feels the same as 400 and 2.4 for me, I am not sure if it should work like that but I tried it out. :) although the 3.0 is 450dpi I think? the newer darker version.

when I start getting over 2000 dpi, and adjusting sens to match 400dpi/2.4 in-game, it starts to feel a bit 'wobbly', and not as accurate. can't put my finger on why that is but I hope it's not just placebo.

but using lower DPI steps like that, you should be good! the Mionix is VERY good when it comes to jitter performance.

I hope that helps :p it's a fantastic mouse, if the shape is right for you. :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Tue, 19 August 2014, 17:25:20
@MaximilianKohler really? that's nice to know...hope that they get the sensor right this time. About the cooperhead you must be right, I know that when that happened, was a deal breaker for me.
I have a few questions if you don't mind answering! I'll be acquiring a 27" monitor soon enough, and will start playing games at 2560x1440...I know it's quite high resolution, do you think that 400 dpi would be too low for that? Ingame and while browsing? I mean, I would have to change that much my sens? And do you think if I got a mionix for example, if I use 800 dpi via software to help with the increased resolution and kinda balance this increase by lowering my sens ingame would be the same? Would it result in the "same" perception with a 400 dpi or would be a lot diferent? Or just stick with 400 dpi anyway? I ask that because of the new monitor and gaming at higher resolutions, if that would be that big of a deal. Don't know if that would be any help, but I was used this cfg when I player: 640x480 ingame, windows sens 6, 1000hz, no accel and 2.4 sens ingame, with the 3.0, 400 dpi I guess.
I currently use the Benq xl2411z. Which is a 24" 1920x1080 monitor. I also use extended desktop with my old 2233rz.

I'm ok with 400dpi on the desktop, but it would be nice to have around 800. For games like dota that don't let you change your sensitivity ingame, and thus to get a higher sensitivity you need higher dpi, 400dpi is annoyingly slow for me. But I mostly play FPS games, so that doesn't factor in for me. It also doesn't bother me in Starcraft 2.

I use identical sens as you in 1.6. No matter what you set the avior to, in 1.6 you're going to feel a negative difference in the performance vs your 3.0. I would not recommend switching to the avior.

As far as "needing more CPI for higher resolutions", I haven't noticed any discernible negative effects when going over the "useful DPI threshold". If you plug in your values into this site: http://www.funender.com/quake/mouse/index.html it puts your useable DPI at 472, which is only barely over your 450dpi mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: RadicalStyle on Wed, 20 August 2014, 18:33:57
What means "ADNS"? For example "Avago ADNS 3310" and "Avago 3310" What's the difference?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Wed, 20 August 2014, 19:40:01
ADNS is just their model name, avago deadly noobkiller sensor or something (no idea what it actually stands for. but they're the same. as is PixArt 3310 / PixArt PMW3310 / PixArt PMW3310DH, afaik. please correct me if I am wrong)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 20 August 2014, 23:41:38
First time seeing confirmation that the Logitech G502 is a good mouse in technical terms ;P
Feels great. A bit heavy but I have a low friction mousepad (artizan shidenkai x-soft)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Kfactork on Thu, 21 August 2014, 00:55:35
ADNS is just their model name, avago deadly noobkiller sensor or something (no idea what it actually stands for. but they're the same. as is PixArt 3310 / PixArt PMW3310 / PixArt PMW3310DH, afaik. please correct me if I am wrong)


LOL. Are you in marketing by any chance ;)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Thu, 21 August 2014, 07:48:42
ADNS is just their model name, avago deadly noobkiller sensor or something (no idea what it actually stands for. but they're the same. as is PixArt 3310 / PixArt PMW3310 / PixArt PMW3310DH, afaik. please correct me if I am wrong)


LOL. Are you in marketing by any chance ;)

yup, I work for Headshot Master eRazerz Elite 65 (TM)(R)(C) LED Pro
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: reaver9 on Thu, 21 August 2014, 15:49:46
Sorry about the late reply!

@munch Really? That's nice to know! I think I'll try the mionix later, seems that's it's one of the better mices out there, from the "new" ones, really aprecciate the help!

@MaximillianKohler Do you think it's slow to move around, I mean, slow to the point that will start bothering? I'll use a slightly higher resolution, so I don't know about that. I think I'll try with the 3.0 in higher resolutions, and if it's totally ok, great. Also I'm worried about the hz, it's 125 default I think, that would be really bad, don't know how to resolve that. That last thing, I didn't understood quite well, what would be "useable" DPI? Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Fri, 22 August 2014, 18:39:41
@MaximillianKohler Do you think it's slow to move around, I mean, slow to the point that will start bothering? I'll use a slightly higher resolution, so I don't know about that. I think I'll try with the 3.0 in higher resolutions, and if it's totally ok, great. Also I'm worried about the hz, it's 125 default I think, that would be really bad, don't know how to resolve that. That last thing, I didn't understood quite well, what would be "useable" DPI? Thanks for the help!
Useful DPI is covered here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1251156/an-overview-of-mouse-technology/0_50#user_v

Basically you put your settings into the previous link I gave you and it will tell you what your useful DPI is. Anything over that is a waste.

As far as when it will be slow enough to bother you, that depends on the game you're playing and individual preference. For FPS games it's not a factor.

For hz you'll need to stick with windows 7.
- http://www.gamefront.com/files/24069720/USBHz_Win7.7z
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: option.iv on Tue, 26 August 2014, 17:19:41
Just wanted to chime in and say that the Roccat Kone Military does not track on an Steelseries I-2 (icemat v2). However, my Logitech g502 tracks fine on the I-2, even without surface calibration. Kind of a bummer, since I gave up my Ratpadz XT for an I-2 (not going back) and I really liked the ergonomics of the Kone Military. It would also be nice to add any problems with tracking on certain surfaces for mice on the list. Keep up the good work on the thread, I have it bookmarked and think it's definitely the best up to date mouse guide out there.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Tue, 26 August 2014, 18:46:58
I'm a little on the fence here about something, my Avior 7000 'butt' feels a bit large in my hand when gripping it with fingertip grip, so I was wondering... what other options are there that have the 3310 sensor or similar? I feel a little spoiled here by the 3310, it's just so nice.
another requirement is LIGHTER buttons. the FK1 simply has too hard to press buttons. am I out of luck here or is there any mouse that went a bit under the radar for me? I don't mind like right handed ergonomics as long as the backside doesn't feel too beefy compared to the front. and lighter is better of course.

I don't recall how I felt about the Roccat Kone when fingertip gripping it, but the weight and buttons were nice IMO... unfortunately they no longer sell it here where I live so I can't go try it out again. :(
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 27 August 2014, 03:34:44
Just wanted to chime in and say that the Roccat Kone Military does not track on an Steelseries I-2 (icemat v2). However, my Logitech g502 tracks fine on the I-2, even without surface calibration. Kind of a bummer, since I gave up my Ratpadz XT for an I-2 (not going back) and I really liked the ergonomics of the Kone Military. It would also be nice to add any problems with tracking on certain surfaces for mice on the list. Keep up the good work on the thread, I have it bookmarked and think it's definitely the best up to date mouse guide out there.

Thanks for letting us know. And thanks for the support. Gathering information about this kind of thing can be tough. I will try and see what I can do and if it is possible to reliably give an indication of how a mouse/sensor tracks on different surfaces. I am aware of a number of issues like this, mostly on special kind of hardpads. But I am not sure how to incorporate it into the guide.

For now, I think first up is adding DPI range as well as DPI steps for each individual mouse. Additionally, I think dimensions could be helpful as well. I don't think anyone looks at the dimension for a mouse and gets a good idea of how it will feel in their hand, but being able to compare dimensions among mice might be helpful for some people.

Edit: I am also planning to add malfunction speed for each mouse. Though it will take some time for it to be reliable enough for me to include it. It is also dependent on the surface creating another inaccuracy. It will only function to give an indication.

I believe that for most people, modern sensors will pretty much all do the job in terms of the tracking speed they can handle. However, I know there are those who require a mouse that can track at speeds that are far beyond the requirements of most others. For them, I think it is useful if they have an indication which mice will be able to keep up.

Adding perfect control speed would be even better. But that is harder to measure, and therefore harder to find for each individual mice.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: lithony on Sun, 31 August 2014, 21:26:34
I am trying to buy M45 or FK1

Which would you recommend?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 31 August 2014, 22:31:51
the M45 is very big in comparison (wide) so personally, I'd go with the FK1 of those two options.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Solo on Tue, 02 September 2014, 23:26:36
Just try both and return the one you hate. :)

The M45 is one of the more compelling designs I've seen in awhile.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Novus on Wed, 03 September 2014, 00:22:58
There's also a saying that the 3310  has been corsaired (badly implemented)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 03 September 2014, 01:13:07
There is currently an issue with the way this topic is being displayed. Part of it is cut off, and the 3rd post might appear differently from the ones before it.

Additionally, I can not edit anything in the guide. I will have to wait until this is addressed.

EDIT: It was part of a larger issue that has now been addressed. I plan to add dimensions, DPI and DPI steps available for every mouse in the near future.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: 343 Grenadier on Mon, 08 September 2014, 17:46:23
Greetings. I'm new to a lot of this so pardon any ignorance on my part. I compiled a sizable list of mice with optical sensors. Basically everything I could find. But that's far from being thorough enough. I hope to make the list better by weeding out optical mice which do indeed have tracking issues, and this very impressive and detailed guide has been very helpful but I know I haven't plucked all the weeds from the garden just yet. I just want to know what options are viable, and which options aren't, to provide as diverse/complete a list of worthwhile options as possible for gamers who want absolute 1:1 precision but also want choices as to ergonomics, max CPI, durability, brand, aesthetics, etc. Thus, I've titled the list "Rev. 1.0" since I plan to narrow it down to just the mice with no acceleration, prediction, pixel walk, or pixel skipping and go into more detail about what the remaining mice have to offer. Obviously there's still LOD and jitter but those are manageable problems with appropriate measures and surfaces, whereas the ones listed usually are not. Rev. 2.0 should have most if not all of the mice with issues eliminated. Alternatively, you could add just any winners to your own list, which is quite detailed when describing specific mice. Either way, the public has a more complete guide to 1:1 gaming mice, so I'm happy.

http://unitdccxxxi.deviantart.com/journal/Optical-Mice-List-Rev-1-0-475927418
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Wed, 10 September 2014, 06:52:29
hi guys, i recently purchased an Avior 7000 and would like to share some brief impressions of it after near a week of usage. my previous mouse is a secondhand Deathadder 3G i've been using for 15 months so that's what i'll base my comparison on

- the design/shape: the DA has an ergonomic design, the sides are grooved inwards and the palm rest (i believe this is the correct term) is elevated, providing a very comfortable experience. when i first put my hands on the ambidextrous Avior, it almost felt like culture shock. both the sides and the palm rest are flat, and while i have entirely acclimatized to the new shape, i have to say i still prefer the ergonomic design of the DA which is more comfortable and lets me switch between palm grip and claw grip at will. being ambidextrous, the rightsided side buttons on the Avior is also a pain when you are getting acquainted with the mouse. i put a couple of macros on them to try out in Dota, but i would misspress one of these buttons every 20 seconds so i just went ahead and disabled them. i'm probably still hitting them by accident even now, so these buttons are unusable for me

- weight: the Avior is a bit lighter, i didn't recognize it initially, but if you quickly switch back and forth between them, the difference becomes apparent. i generally prefer lighter mice, but the DA's weight never bothered me whatsoever

- the LMB and RMB buttons: both mice utilize Omron switches so no complaints here whatsoever. the DA makes a more satisfying sound when clicking mouse4 mouse5 buttons, and it feels like they bottom out a bit further down, but i feel those are rather insignificant differences

- side buttons: i prefer the DA's, my English lets me down here but the DA buttons are more 'integrated' into the mouse so to speak. they aren't overtextured and don't stick out like the Avior buttons, and they are glossy coated so the touch feels nicer (the tradeoff being they accumulate dirt and fingerprint much more noticably). as with the LMB and RMB buttons, both mice use Omron switches for their side buttons. i cannot stress how absolutely amazing these switches are, so if for some reason you've never owned a mouse with Omrons you need to get one asap. one last note about the side buttons, the DA's and Avior's lower sidebutton make a muffled sound when press, whereas the Avior's upper side button make a very prominent high pitched click. this inconsistency is something i cannot explain, but it doesn't matter to me as i have headphones on almost 100% of the time

- extra buttons: the Avior has 2 extra DPI-step buttons under the scroll wheel, very useful if you require a separate DPI for each of your game. if not, you can still repurpose them into any function you can think of. huge plus over the DA. once again there is a noise consistency between the upper and lower button, but like i said above it doesn't bother me

- scrollwheel: the scrollwheel on the Avior is placed higher up the mouse compared to the DA's, so for someone with small hands like mine, you will only have control of half the scrollwheel instead of the whole thing, but in practice i find it to to be an irrelevant factor. what does make a huge difference though, is that the DA scroll is much softer and easier to press (mouse3) than the Avior's. this is really emphasized when you're scrolling at highspeed, it is much easier to do so on the DA. if i could take an aspect of the DA and slap it onto the Avior, this would probably be it

- sensor: there isn't much to say here, the 3310 is a winner in every way. i don't know if it was the DAsensor or the fact that the mouse itself was failing, but a lot of my poor plays in Dota could be attributed to my poor mouse movement. with this new sensor, i find myself making much more accurate movements which really upped my game the past couple of days. i'm sure a difference will be even more apparent to someone who uses a monitor with high refresh rate, or play mouse-extensive games like competitive shooters and RTSes.

- software: downloading the Avior software and installing the firmware is quite straightforward, there is very clear instructions on the official website. it was buggy initially but i have no more problems with it as of now. i don't like the Razer equivalent (Synapse) as much, as you need to create an account for it, and the benefit (cloud settings) isn't worth the hassle of making an account for me. but i'm a very lazy person so ymmv. the software provides macro, something the DA doesn't have, very useful for ingame scripts, or simply for creating shortcut combinations you can map onto mouse buttons. there's a surface analyzer which seems to be fairly useless to me (40% surface recognition, maybe it's just telling me to get a better mouse, but i hope it isn't compensating for this in any way). some options like angle snapping and angle tuning i just leave at default, they don't seem to be very beneficial so i just don't bother tinkering with them. pointer speed i increased by a notch (6/10 pointer speed with 2000 DPI, i think it replaces the windows pointer speed), and lift distance is left at default, as i generally don't care for this aspect (maybe you need to reposition the mouse a lot in an FPS, but i don't find it to be the case in Dota where i just edge pan). supports up to 5 profiles along with loads of custom LED effects/colors, pretty fun if you're into that stuff.

- build quality: mouse and cable all seem solid to me, though this isn't something you can ascertain with just less than a week of usage. i do like the fact that it's all matte, it may not feel or look as nice as glossy but it sure as heck is easier to keep clean.

summary: i didn't have a clear outline when i started writing this, just went with whatever popped into my head so let me know if i missed anything. overall i find the Avior to be the superior mouse (functionally speaking), i still wish i could import some design choices from the DA that would increase my enjoyment of the Avior considerably. to me, the 3310 sensor doesn't justify the 80 euros i would have had to shell out for this mouse (direct from official website), early adopter price taken into account. with that in mind, i'd like to give a huge thanks to munch, a fellow GH user, for the opportunity to obtain this mouse at a much more budget price. in any case, this is for sure the best ambidextrous mouse on the market right now (unless i missed out on some new models), so i would definitely recommend it if you can get it for a more reasonable price.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Wed, 10 September 2014, 08:33:01
:) I do agree on pretty much most parts, but I'd say the FK1 is on par for those who don't mind the shell / button issue and the scroll wheel maybe!
since it's a bit lighter and many people value that a lot (me included).

thanks for the review! I hope you will continue to enjoy it for a long time.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ajx on Thu, 11 September 2014, 05:27:12
Quote
the DA's and Avior's lower sidebutton make a muffled sound when press, whereas the Avior's upper side button make a very prominent high pitched click
Same on mine, it sounds like pretty normal although i had a doubt and watched several reviews on youtube
Damn it, i hate these video reviw, they keep talking and never touch these buttons
you cant hear anything  >:D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Thu, 11 September 2014, 05:43:41
my bad, that should read "the DA's sidebuttons and Avior upper sidebutton.... the Avior lowerside buton"
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ajx on Thu, 11 September 2014, 17:33:33
Yes the upper side buttons make like you said, a muffled sound while the lowerside side buttons make a crisp and clicky sound
I thought i was a flaw.
I believe they want to make distinct sound between these buttons on purpose, in order to help user to recognize which buttons have been pressed
On G700 which has many side buttons (10), Logitech implanted different stiffness for side buttons, you could in any other way to press accidentally wrong button
I still prefer Logitech idea, i find Avior side buttons too soft, very useful for gaming, a bit annoying for desktop using
due to their softness, i sometime press them accidentally
e.g  currently writing this post, my thumb keeps held on upper side button and sometimes i might press it and eventually going to the previous page  >:D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Thu, 16 October 2014, 11:59:01
Hi,

I am new to this forum and this is my first comment. I don't remember if I've ever registered on any blog/forum before but the collective information in this guide and my enthusiasm as a gamer tempted me to register and join the most updated mouse reviews thread.
Btw, I've been reading a lot of blogs from past week and this was the best one I've seen apart from a few from overclockers.net
I've read each and every comment in this thread till now.

To begin with, I have a 7 year old Intelli 3.0 and 3.5 years old DA 3.5G out of which Intelli is still working with doubleclick issue which wasn't resolved even after opening the whole mouse and cleaning it up properly(just to inform - I'd specially brought a set of screwdrivers along with cleaning sprays/cotton buds etc). DeathAdder was also facing the same issue of doubleclick with the left mouse click. So, I tried to clean that up as well, but unfortunately, I didn't put extra care or maybe it was not a good build that RMB broke from inside and the doubleclick issue with LMB still remains. Along with that the LMB doesn't spray the complete cartridge 30 bullets(while playing cs 1.6) in 1 go when pressed and held, instead, stops and fires 1-2 then stops and again fires and sometimes doesn't fire at all. Sorry for my bad english as English is not my native language(like "zhd")

So, basically I'm looking for a new mouse and want to spend wisely(The cost of a mouse doesn't bother much until its worth it). Unfortunately, we don't have any electronics shop anywhere nearby where I can go and test any of the mice to understand my grip requirement and I'll have to order online(might have to import as well). I live in Delhi, India.

So far, I've understood that Logitech G502's 3366 sensor is a unique of its kind and so, we're left with choosing a comfortable mouse(subjective) with 3310 sensor as of now since G502 as some reported bugs.
I've summarized a list of mice with 3310 sensor.
1. Asus Strix Claw - uses Japanese Omron switches for L-RMB(better than Chinese Omron in terms of durability). It has adjustable LOD.
2.  Corsair M45
3. Mionix Avior 7000
4. Mionix Naos 7000
5. Roccat Kone Pure Military
6. Steelseries Rival
7. Zowie Fk1

The sequence doesn't tell us about the ratings ,however, the first 5, I believe, uses Japanese Omron switches for L-RMB and the rival/fk1 are different.
I felt Intelli was big for my hands and DA was just fine(better grip and movements). I've small hands, so I might try a mouse even smaller than DA, but since I've experienced Omron switches in DA. I would like to have such soft touch for the buttons. Fk1's huano need more force to activate(though it seems fine in every aspect if we're ok with the shell and switch). My best bet would be if I could replace Fk1's switch with Omron even though I've heard Omron switches are not that durable(long lasting) as compared to those in Logitech mice.
and yes, DA has high LOD whereas Intelli hasn't but it can be adjusted with a tape fix and it doesn't bother much on lower dpi's 400-800.

In short, my preferences are similar to "whentheclouds". Munch had been actively providing valuable feedback and thats driving us towards Avior Mionix 7000 (which was materialized by "whentheclouds") apart from the last review about it being too wide from the bottom and v.less from the front.
@whentheclouds, thanks for posting a good long review about mionix avior 7000. After using it, would you suggest it over Kone Pure Military since, I would also prefer DA comfort and design(which is not possible at the moment because of the absence of 3310 sensor).
@Grim Fandango, The Greatest mouse guide till date. Could you please also add other mice having 3310 sensor and omron switches(which are missing from this thread). Thanks!
I'm using Razer Goliathus Alpha Control Edition Mousepad. Can anyone suggest me a mouse compatible for gliding on this mousepad out of these 3310 sensor mice? I know, that would depend on the skates the mouse is using which causes variable static/moving friction of which I've no idea since I cannot try them. I'm sorry if I'm asking too much, but, would really appreciate if you could also answer in short.
Sidebuttons, Stylish looks, extra buttons/lights-colors etc. doesn't matter to me. All I care about is comfort(grip) after coming from DA, controlled movements(which is given by 3310 sensor) and clicks which are easy to reach for tapping/spamming.
After reading all the reviews in this thread, I'm left with choosing between Avior Mionix 7000 and Roccat Kone Pure Military(driven more towards Kone Pure Military). Shall I also look into Asus Strix Claw or Corsair M45 before pulling the trigger on one of these as I'm seeking a more comfortable mouse ? Thanks for reading :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Thu, 16 October 2014, 12:09:49
Logitech G402 is another good option, and I think you might like the Kone Pure Military as well.
Naos 7000 is very big, I would not even bother trying that one if you prefer a little bit smaller.

it's hard to get an idea of what kind of grip you like, but if the DeathAdder is your favourite grip, maybe you should do like me and wait for the new Zowie EC-series with 3310 sensors... :P
the Kone Pure Military is not as filling of the hand as the IE3.0/DA are, as it has a curve on the right side too that goes inwards. and G402 is just a slightly different style.

but you also listed a few Ambidextrous mice - have you tried any that you like? they're very different gripping styles.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Thu, 16 October 2014, 12:28:20
@J.B I did a review and comparison of the FK1 and KPM here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd along with the avior7000, rival, and G502.

If sensor is your #1 priority I'd recommend the KPM. But if the KPM shape is too wrong for you then I'd go with whichever one of the others fits your hand and grip best.

That's not to mention the MLT04 mice though, which are still #1 by a significant margin - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1421432#msg1421432
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Thu, 16 October 2014, 12:35:02
Logitech G402 is another good option, and I think you might like the Kone Pure Military as well.
Naos 7000 is very big, I would not even bother trying that one if you prefer a little bit smaller.

it's hard to get an idea of what kind of grip you like, but if the DeathAdder is your favourite grip, maybe you should do like me and wait for the new Zowie EC-series with 3310 sensors... :P
the Kone Pure Military is not as filling of the hand as the IE3.0/DA are, as it has a curve on the right side too that goes inwards. and G402 is just a slightly different style.

but you also listed a few Ambidextrous mice - have you tried any that you like? they're very different gripping styles.
@munch. Thanks for the quick reply as always :)
I haven't tried any of them but have been reading about them online.
I've heard G400 is better than G402 but I'm looking for 3310 sensor which is not yet available in Logitech mice though I've heard Logitech mice are most durable and also offers a 3 year warranty with good return policy as I've read that they didn't even ask for the old mouse to be returned and still gave an additional new piece when someone complained.
It did strike my head to wait for the Zowie EC series with 3310 sensor(which was previously quoted somewhere on overclockers.net) but don't you think the hunao switch would be a problem unless they implement a softer, maybe, Omron switch for LMB and RMB. Then that could be a perfect mouse w/o any complain as I like everything about Zowie except hard clicks. [DeathAdder clicks(though not being durable) are really an addiction :P]
Also, I would like to know, is Fk1's LMB durable or are there any issues(like doubleclick/lag/skip) reported after a good use ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Thu, 16 October 2014, 13:25:52
@J.B I did a review and comparison of the FK1 and KPM here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2riVNLJly0KG7Z8albMETEmbRB8bCzd along with the avior7000, rival, and G502.

If sensor is your #1 priority I'd recommend the KPM. But if the KPM shape is too wrong for you then I'd go with whichever one of the others fits your hand and grip best.

That's not to mention the MLT04 mice though, which are still #1 by a significant margin - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.msg1421432#msg1421432

Good review. Gives us a little idea about the comfort and grip before using the mice(in case it is not available to try in nearby electronics shop). That was helpful. I also checked your video on Mionix Avior 7000 vs Rival.
I got to the conclusion that both KPM and Mionix 7000 are almost same performance wise out of which KPM loses the grip due to the gap at Right-hand-side(as mentioned by munch as well). Avior seems to have a better grip if we are ok to disable the side buttons. It, however, misses the crown of being perfect because of its imbalanced weight at the bottom. Rival's clicks are a lil-bit of a problem as they are using the switches commonly used for side-buttons in its LMB and RMB, I believe.
Can we have a review on Corsair M45 and Asus Strix Claw in these respects since they also use the same 3310 sensor? Are they able to fill the gap comfort/gripwise ? I'm sorry if I'm off topic from the purpose of this thread.
I know we do have to make compromises based on our priority since the perfect mouse seemingly is not out there but I just wanted to find the best mouse out of available options :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Thu, 16 October 2014, 14:20:56
No, I wouldn't say KPM and Avior are on par sensor performance wise. The KPM is the best 3310 sensor for me. The rest of them are all pretty close.

And I don't think the Avior shape is much better than the KPM. Avior has a forced fingertip grip. And KPM seems to be designed with claw grip in mind. So neither are preferable for palm grip, but if anything I'd probably choose the KPM.

The Asus Strix Claw is way overpriced at $140 + 7.50 shipping: http://www.amazon.com/GX1000-Strix-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00MI8I0R2

Regarding the corsair, you could just do what I do and test the mouse then return it if you don't like it. I'm holding out for a new sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Thu, 16 October 2014, 14:43:31
@Grim Fandango, The Greatest mouse guide till date. Could you please also add other mice having 3310 sensor and omron switches(which are missing from this thread). Thanks!

Thanks. I have not added or changed anything in the guide for a while because work is crushing me right now. But there are some planned updates.
-Adding new mice
-Adding dimensions to every mouse
-Adding DPI and DPI steps for every mouse

I will probably do so in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:07:22
The Asus Strix Claw is way overpriced at $140 + 7.50 shipping: http://www.amazon.com/GX1000-Strix-Optical-Gaming-Mouse/dp/B00MI8I0R2
Fortunately, it is available at a lower price of Rs 3750(around 58-59 USD) in India :D
Source: http://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/asus-launches-strix-series-of-gaming-peripherals-and-accessories-in-india-603768
Although, I'm not sure where to buy this in India as the above source is just a news info :s
Hopefully, I'll be able to find it somewhere soon but I'm still concerned about first choosing the right mouse for my hands :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Sun, 19 October 2014, 02:14:01
@MaxmillianKohler, how about Ninox Aurora(customized Avago 3090 sensor)? Its out :)
Source: http://ninox.org/shop.html
or shall we wait for a similar shell implementing 3310/3366 sensor which you know would take another 3 years? :P
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Sun, 19 October 2014, 02:55:15
@MaxmillianKohler, how about Ninox Aurora(customized Avago 3090 sensor)? Its out :)
Source: http://ninox.org/shop.html
or shall we wait for a similar shell implementing 3310/3366 sensor which you know would take another 3 years? :P
The shape looks really appealing, but it uses this sensor: http://www.overclock.net/t/1440395/avago-3090-4000-dpi-rom-is-not-a-valid-gaming-mouse-sensor-please-release-a-firmware-update-to-save-the-kana-v2/0_50

3366 is overhyped. The KPM felt better.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Eszett on Sun, 19 October 2014, 03:06:09
Why are sensors that important? My list of criteria for a good mouse would be:
- does it work flawless?
- how does it look & feel? (for small hands, big hands)
- durability
- price

By the way, I think most mice are hugely overpriced. I’m using an MX310, which is not too bad. My last MX310 died after about 8 years, and I bought a new one for a reasonable price of about 13 € on eBay from China. I fancy a R.A.T. 7 mainly for the reason, that I hope my hands will have a more comfortable grip on that mouse. But I would never spend a retail price of 90 € or the like.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 19 October 2014, 12:41:09
Why are sensors that important? My list of criteria for a good mouse would be:
- does it work flawless?
- how does it look & feel? (for small hands, big hands)
- durability
- price

By the way, I think most mice are hugely overpriced. I’m using an MX310, which is not too bad. My last MX310 died after about 8 years, and I bought a new one for a reasonable price of about 13 € on eBay from China. I fancy a R.A.T. 7 mainly for the reason, that I hope my hands will have a more comfortable grip on that mouse. But I would never spend a retail price of 90 € or the like.

I agree that the sensor is not the only part of the mouse that is important when making a decision of which mouse to get. However, since people spend a lot of money on gaming mice because they want something that performs well, it only makes sense to have a closer look at sensor performance and to try and determine which mice really do have a good tracking. That way buyers can make an informed decision and get good value for money when it comes to actual performance. You mention that a mouse should work flawlessly. I would argue that plenty (all) of mice have shortcomings when it comes to tracking that make them less than flawless. Some of these shortcoming are subtle and not an issue to everyone. Others are really problematic and would annoy anyone.

But then of course shape, size, and feel is important too. The idea with this list is to just give people an overview of mice they can pick from if they would want to avoid acceleration and prediction. Since the mice on the list are quite different in shape, size and so on, hopefully people will be able to find something on the list that works for them. Personally I also did not go with the mouse that has the absolute best sensor. Instead, I went with the mouse that had a sensor that did not have any shortcomings that would frustrate me, and works well for me due to the shape/weight/coating of the mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: J.B ? on Sun, 19 October 2014, 13:15:04
The KPM felt better.

Exhausted, I pulled the trigger on KPM :)
I was more tempted towards Ninox Aurora since that was out after a lot of personal hard work from the maker(you know who)
Everything seems to be good.
Omron switches with the perfect shells(as described in esreality forums)
Size, shape and weight - pretty decent
Since, it took almost 3 years for it to be developed which was started with Avago 3090 sensor and is finally made with the same.
I couldn't wait for this mouse to come out with 3310 sensor and so, KPM was my final choice.
I'll wait for it to arrive(no ETA provided). If it doesn't feel comfortable. I might have to switch to Ninox Aurora or Zowie Fk1 compromising with either the sensor or the click-switches respectively :D
I'll post my reviews about KPM after a good use :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 19 October 2014, 20:15:59
nice! I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I do like the mouse a lot, just need something with less of an indentation on the right side for my preferred grip.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: HotKillerZzz on Sun, 19 October 2014, 21:00:47
Anyone tried the logitech G502?
Seems appealing to me but I would like to know what it is like from someone who has used it.
(http://normalizer01.liveclicker.com/thumb/2437/1030036656_1_Flv_512x288_thumb_3.jpg/logitech-g502-proteus-core-tunable-gaming-mouse-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Mon, 20 October 2014, 07:09:46
Anyone tried the logitech G502?
Seems appealing to me but I would like to know what it is like from someone who has used it.


Sensor is overhyped. The 3310 sensors have "intelligent surface calibration" too. The KPM sensor felt better in my experience.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tyvar1 on Wed, 22 October 2014, 10:34:35
Could anyone recommend me a good Bluetooth mouse for android?  :thumb:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: singaporean123 on Thu, 23 October 2014, 08:17:50
I'm big on MMOs, WoW in particular.

Are there good mouse for that? my g600 has finally succumbed to the double click issue.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Thu, 23 October 2014, 08:57:47
I'm big on MMOs, WoW in particular.

Are there good mouse for that? my g600 has finally succumbed to the double click issue.

You don't need a gaming mouse for that type of game. You can buy any mouse that fits your weight, shape, grip, buttons criteria.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Thu, 23 October 2014, 12:12:18
maybe not need but it's still nice to have a good one. he might play different games too sometimes!

if you like the G600, and all those crazy buttons it has, I'm not sure you'll have a lot of options though.

we'll need a bit more to work with I think.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: swiftblade13 on Tue, 18 November 2014, 09:35:52
I currently own a RAT 3 and while it fits my hand perfectly I'm needing a second mouse for my desktop. I was wondering if any of the mice on the list have a similar ergonomic feel?
 I'm liking the sensor but my 1440p monitor means I'm using it on max dpi(fingertip grip).
At this point I'm thinking of just buying another rat3 (in white).
Should I?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 18 November 2014, 11:08:05
g502 overhyped? why, just because it didn't feel good to you?
have you seen all the reviews and, more importantly, all the tests done?
hype is hype, so you can just ignore that. but the tests speak for the sensor, and the 3366 is currently unmatched.
i don't use the g502, but certainly not because of the sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Tue, 18 November 2014, 11:55:16
g502 overhyped? why, just because it didn't feel good to you?
have you seen all the reviews and, more importantly, all the tests done?
hype is hype, so you can just ignore that. but the tests speak for the sensor, and the 3366 is currently unmatched.
i don't use the g502, but certainly not because of the sensor.

There are no tests that detect all the artificial processing that manufacturers have been doing to their mice. There is a very obvious difference though if you test the mouse along with the reigning champion of "rawness, highest fidelity, most analog" - the MLT04 - in a well coded game like CS 1.6.

The vast majority of reviews I've seen are complete fluff. Hype is also meaningless. There was tremendous hype about the 3090. People exclaiming it was a "perfect sensor". Now we know it is FAR from such.

But also we have to take into account the firmware and other alterations that each manufacturer does to the sensor. For example, the Kone Pure Military's implementation of the 3310 feels significantly better than the other 3310 mice, and even better than the 3366.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 19 November 2014, 05:05:11
I'm big on MMOs, WoW in particular.

Are there good mouse for that? my g600 has finally succumbed to the double click issue.

I made a thread about a new MMO mouse which is really nice if you like lightweight mice: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65228.0

I currently own a RAT 3 and while it fits my hand perfectly I'm needing a second mouse for my desktop. I was wondering if any of the mice on the list have a similar ergonomic feel?
 I'm liking the sensor but my 1440p monitor means I'm using it on max dpi(fingertip grip).
At this point I'm thinking of just buying another rat3 (in white).
Should I?


I did just that a little while ago and while I am very happy with my white optical RAT 3, I would rather get the new Tournament Edition. Still lightweight, still comfortable, but it has two big improvements. The sensor is a big upgrade, very accurate, tracks well and goes up to 8200DPI without problem. It also has an extra thumb button which you can use to switch DPI while it's pressed. Very nice for large desktops where you want to be able to switch between moving quickly and moving precisely, or in FPS games as a "sniper" mode.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: swiftblade13 on Wed, 19 November 2014, 11:19:36

I did just that a little while ago and while I am very happy with my white optical RAT 3, I would rather get the new Tournament Edition. Still lightweight, still comfortable, but it has two big improvements. The sensor is a big upgrade, very accurate, tracks well and goes up to 8200DPI without problem. It also has an extra thumb button which you can use to switch DPI while it's pressed. Very nice for large desktops where you want to be able to switch between moving quickly and moving precisely, or in FPS games as a "sniper" mode.
isn't that sensor a laser sensor?
plus I'm REALLY not a fan of those colors...

has anyone used the G302 Daedalus Prime? 
I'm hoping it has the g402's sensor without being quite so LONG.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 19 November 2014, 13:35:08

I did just that a little while ago and while I am very happy with my white optical RAT 3, I would rather get the new Tournament Edition. Still lightweight, still comfortable, but it has two big improvements. The sensor is a big upgrade, very accurate, tracks well and goes up to 8200DPI without problem. It also has an extra thumb button which you can use to switch DPI while it's pressed. Very nice for large desktops where you want to be able to switch between moving quickly and moving precisely, or in FPS games as a "sniper" mode.
isn't that sensor a laser sensor?
plus I'm REALLY not a fan of those colors...

has anyone used the G302 Daedalus Prime? 
I'm hoping it has the g402's sensor without being quite so LONG.

New generation Philips laser doppler sensor. They seem to have fixed the issues of the previous versions and it tracks beautifully all the way up to 8200DPI. You can adjust the lift off distance all the way down to 0.2mm.

Have you seen all the colour options? It comes in Blue, Red, White and Black versions.

Do yourself a favour and read some reviews. If you want more buttons, there's also the MMO version :)

After getting my first RAT 3 I haven't really paid much attention to other designs, since it fits my hand so well and is nice and light.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Shatlord on Wed, 19 November 2014, 17:58:13
Anyone tried the logitech G502?
Seems appealing to me but I would like to know what it is like from someone who has used it.
Show Image
(http://normalizer01.liveclicker.com/thumb/2437/1030036656_1_Flv_512x288_thumb_3.jpg/logitech-g502-proteus-core-tunable-gaming-mouse-3.jpg)


Its a decent mouse. I came off a g9 g9x, so logitech fan:P
Some problems with it are, peeling feet, you can get some better ones off ebay apparently which are linked in the logitech forum thread.  This only matters if you have a cloth pad apparently, i use bare table and mouse skate tape so it was never going to affect me.
The wheel is stiff, but then again i never use it outside spin mode in desktop, and the stiffness prevents accidental weapon switch in games.  It has nice stiff and clear actuation for both the button press and tilt button press for the wheel, but i'd still judge the g9x wheel as superior.  But the wheel shift to spin is now on top, which kind of makes it less of a problem to begin with, nothing was more hateful than having to flip over my mouse when starting a game so i wouldn't accidentally spin the wheel in the game, many times i wouldn't notice until the oopsie moment in a shooter.
The weight and feel of the mouse is very good, i can't complain, the clicks are all clear and solid.  This is where the g9 series fell down, to have that replacable hand grip feature the thumb buttons were part of the removable hand grip, which meant they were buttons pressing on buttons, which lead to a muddy feeling activation.  Now with this mouse its clear i press the thumb button, no mushy activation.
And the sensor, cant complain, it works, no negative or positive acceleration, tracks on non mouse mat surfaces like my semi gloss desk just fine.
What I miss are the rgb color indicators on the g9, i don't know why they went with just blue now. It helped with the auto profile switching in the driver where different mouse setups would automatically apply for different software, now it just blinks to tell you its switched.
It does have a dimming and inactivity dimming feature and a pulsing feature though, so the out of the box the blinding blue can be toned down.
Its a great mouse with flaws.
But that's how these things always are,  I'm pretty sure these companies never come out with the "perfect" mouse, so they can always have a new one every few years;)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ntstnc on Mon, 08 December 2014, 03:45:26
I think I am gonna go with the mionix naos 7000 which seems to be the only mouse with decent ergonomics with no accel and that is not on the list and you should add it :p
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: NoPaiN^ on Mon, 08 December 2014, 11:29:19
What about the G402?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ArthuriaPendragon on Fri, 12 December 2014, 21:53:42
Is there any mouse to recommend me? I'm a MOBA Player but I personally hate having too many buttons on a mouse. I'm currently using Razer Abyssus and it fits me just well (I would like a mouse slightly bigger than it ) . I tried grabbing the DA but it just feels uncomfortable and it feels too big for me. My brother owns a G502 , it feels great but I don't wanna buy it because I like something unique for myself  :D .
Thank you everyone
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sat, 13 December 2014, 01:18:54
I could recommend the G302, it's not a lot bigger than the Abyssus (I have one here), but it's definitely more comfortable (IMO). and the buttons are nice and light as well. I think they designed it to be a MOBA mouse actually.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ArthuriaPendragon on Sat, 13 December 2014, 04:06:58
It looks promising , I will look reviews bout it ! Thank you very much , but are there any choices too ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: deicide3 on Sat, 13 December 2014, 18:10:59
ok so my tiny g400 fell and now is crippling
i have no idea what to do and i'm sick of small size mouses
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sat, 13 December 2014, 18:47:04
^deicide3, Mionix Naos 7000? it's pretty large.


It looks promising , I will look reviews bout it ! Thank you very much , but are there any choices too ?

I think it's the best choice here. otherwise, Logitech G100s is also pretty good... more similar to the Abyssus, than the G302. however not as nice overall, IMO.
Zowie FK1 is a so-so choice here, due to having a bit harder to press buttons, but a great mouse overall. somewhat bad scroll wheel. but it has a great sensor.
roccat kone pure military is nice, and smaller, but it is also very differently shaped from your Abyssus so it might not work very well.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ArthuriaPendragon on Sun, 14 December 2014, 00:19:34
^deicide3, Mionix Naos 7000? it's pretty large.


It looks promising , I will look reviews bout it ! Thank you very much , but are there any choices too ?

I think it's the best choice here. otherwise, Logitech G100s is also pretty good... more similar to the Abyssus, than the G302. however not as nice overall, IMO.
Zowie FK1 is a so-so choice here, due to having a bit harder to press buttons, but a great mouse overall. somewhat bad scroll wheel. but it has a great sensor.
roccat kone pure military is nice, and smaller, but it is also very differently shaped from your Abyssus so it might not work very well.

Yeah Roccat looks really different , thank you for the help! I decided that I'll get the G302 :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: deicide3 on Sun, 14 December 2014, 01:44:30
^deicide3, Mionix Naos 7000? it's pretty large.
is it bigger than g400?

anyone ever heard of http://www.func.net/en/products/ms-3-revision-2/ ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 14 December 2014, 06:22:31
the fUnc is using an Avago 9500 sensor, which is not as good as the PixArt 3310 used in the Naos 7000. but their shells are very similar.

I find that the Naos is a bit more comfortable though.

http://mionix.net/mice/naos-7000/
you can see more here :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: deicide3 on Sun, 14 December 2014, 08:18:50
the fUnc is using an Avago 9500 sensor, which is not as good as the PixArt 3310 used in the Naos 7000. but their shells are very similar.

I find that the Naos is a bit more comfortable though.

http://mionix.net/mice/naos-7000/
you can see more here :)
ok thanks

now i need to find out where is the cheapest option to get it from with int' shipping


 and.... i bought one
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Sun, 14 December 2014, 12:08:37
nice, let us know how you like it when you get it! :) and make sure you get the latest firmware and such too, they changed a lot lately.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: deicide3 on Sun, 14 December 2014, 12:34:31
nice, let us know how you like it when you get it! :) and make sure you get the latest firmware and such too, they changed a lot lately.
i have no idea anymore
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whitefang on Sun, 14 December 2014, 15:59:39
The KPM felt better.

Exhausted, I pulled the trigger on KPM :)
I was more tempted towards Ninox Aurora since that was out after a lot of personal hard work from the maker(you know who)
Everything seems to be good.
Omron switches with the perfect shells(as described in esreality forums)
Size, shape and weight - pretty decent
Since, it took almost 3 years for it to be developed which was started with Avago 3090 sensor and is finally made with the same.
I couldn't wait for this mouse to come out with 3310 sensor and so, KPM was my final choice.
I'll wait for it to arrive(no ETA provided). If it doesn't feel comfortable. I might have to switch to Ninox Aurora or Zowie Fk1 compromising with either the sensor or the click-switches respectively :D
I'll post my reviews about KPM after a good use :)

I just got my KPM last week. I'm loving it. I am having the problem where occasionally the DPI changes on me though even with the latest firmware (1.10). Hopefully this gets fixed soon because this mouse feels so damned good to use. It also has some tracking problems on my XTracPad Hybrid where it just won't track for about 1mm on the pad in some places. Tracks just fine on a Roccat Sense and Razer Goliathus though.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Creizai on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:11:56
MaximilianKohler over here at Geekhack finally? haha nice
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sygaldry on Thu, 08 January 2015, 11:17:04
Omg so much to read.

Can anyone recommend a mouse to me that won't poop out on me?

My Razer Lachesis is going to s*** after three years (scrollwheel and sensor are giving me issues now - scrollwheel especially) and for my Anywhere MX I have to put a piece of tape (and replace it regularly) on the clicky switch thing to keep it from double clicking every other click.

I just want a mouse that will work and won't give me a headache down the line.  :'(

I'm tempted to dig out one of those ball mice from my basement from ages ago because the only issue I had with those mice was that I had to clean it out every other week.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Rhosta on Tue, 13 January 2015, 11:54:05
Hello,
first, I registered here just because of this topic, so you can be sure I appreciate what you have done here.
Second, I own Cooler Master Storm Alcor and Roccat Kone Pure Military, for some time now, so I want to share my experience with them here.

I bought both of them, because of the sensor without acceleration, before I had Rocccat Kone for about 5 years.

CMSA:
- no software, just simple firmware files which you can load and that is, gentlemen, quite awesome, because no loading of software, no instalation. Each file changes dpi and polling rate and changes color of the logo, so you know, which is in use currently.
- it does not have rubber sides. It is all plastic, except of the wheel.
- bad thing is that main buttons are not a part of the body and sweat/dust/hair/whatever... can stuck and fall into the mouse between buttons and palm rest. And it also can't hold buttons up, so when you move your fingers up and down without click it can make noises just because of buttons falling onto the switches, but that is a detail.
- ergonomics are ok, not great and nothing really bad at the same time. No soft coating is plus for me, because it won't wear out.
- I am very sensitive to scroll wheel quality and this one is a real win for me, it has optimal resistance both in click and scrolling and still works and feels great after about half a year.
- buttons are optimal, nothing bad about them, just solid.

RKPM:
- software is slow with many unnecesary features, main negative is slow saving of settings to the mouse.
- in comparison to the classic roccat kone, this one is smaller. Length is still good, but last two fingers do not have enough space on the side, when I hold it I squeeze my hand a little too much. And you can't use dpi switch button on the fly, because they are simply too close to your palm. But overall shape is great, thumb buttons have good placement.
- simple design with just a few lines makes this mouse very easy to clean, which is really important for me and it was one of the reasons I decided for it.
- main negative for me is the scroll wheel. it has ok click resistance, a little more scroll resistance, but it already shows some weaknesses - when you scroll it all around, it doesn't match scroll point with position at one point and you have to move it for a few more degrees to make a scroll step. Little higher scroll resistance already made it little loose and when you scroll down, it tends to make clicky sound as it wiggles.
- all buttons are good, no weird sounds, all feel solid.

So If I compare them:
Both have good buttons.
Both are lighter than my old Roccat Kone even without any added weights in it.
RKPM has slightly better ergonomics, CMSA is bigger and thus more suitable for palm grip.
CMSA has better wheel.
CMSA has better software:-)

I hope, I have made a good picture of my experience with them. If anything is unclear to you, just tell me and I will try to reformulate or further explain.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whitefang on Wed, 14 January 2015, 03:49:46
Any reason the Kone XTD Optical isn't on this list? Doesn't it use the same S3988 as the DA? Has there just not been enough testing on the XTD to say whether it has smoothing and acceleration or not?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Evo_Spec on Wed, 14 January 2015, 08:04:52
Does anyone have any recommendations for a wider mouse that supports the pinky but also has mouse wheel tilt? I absolutely need mouse wheel tilt, i'm so damn used it from the G7 back in the day.
i'm using the G502 right now but it's a little skinny.

I should add that i had the Roccat Kone+ but even that wasn't quite wide enough for my liking although i used it for like a year or 2.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sun, 22 February 2015, 16:50:31
Any reason the Kone XTD Optical isn't on this list? Doesn't it use the same S3988 as the DA? Has there just not been enough testing on the XTD to say whether it has smoothing and acceleration or not?

There a few models that are on the list to be added. I have not updated the guide in a while, but I will update and improve it in a few weeks once things settle down at work.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Tue, 24 February 2015, 21:21:50
haven't been following the market for a while, looking forward to the update. i was content with my Avior 7000 until i tried a friend's Sensei Raw.. blows the Avior out of the water comfort wise. even the buttons feel better despite both using Omron, probably because the Avior's buttons have harder outer shells.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whitefang on Sun, 01 March 2015, 17:13:29
Any reason the Kone XTD Optical isn't on this list? Doesn't it use the same S3988 as the DA? Has there just not been enough testing on the XTD to say whether it has smoothing and acceleration or not?

There a few models that are on the list to be added. I have not updated the guide in a while, but I will update and improve it in a few weeks once things settle down at work.

Great to hear.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: doubleint on Sat, 14 March 2015, 22:25:10
I just bought a Roccat Kone Pure Military and I'm really excited to try it out. After the many years of abuse I put my G500 through it was time for a new mouse. I'm hoping it's comfortable, I have small hands so I think I should be okay.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davidbag on Tue, 14 April 2015, 14:16:55
Good evening,
I bought the Logitech G502 and I was fine with it, but the last days I am feeling my hand "hurt & tiered" with it! I have my hand not too small, but when I tried it was fine, so I bought it! I like his HW and would love something to change for! something as good as Logitech G502 but more comfortable!
But I have MAC OS X (iMac 27") , and not all works well with! I thought on the Steelseries Wireless, or Cyborg RAT 9, Roccat Tyon, or anything else money it is not a problem! I tried also Razer Naga 2014 but between Logitech, I prefer Logitech!

Can anyone advise me something?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: missalaire on Wed, 15 April 2015, 02:22:54
Any reason the Kone XTD Optical isn't on this list? Doesn't it use the same S3988 as the DA? Has there just not been enough testing on the XTD to say whether it has smoothing and acceleration or not?

There a few models that are on the list to be added. I have not updated the guide in a while, but I will update and improve it in a few weeks once things settle down at work.

Are we getting any closer to this update? Looking forward to seeing it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 22 April 2015, 07:34:50
Any reason the Kone XTD Optical isn't on this list? Doesn't it use the same S3988 as the DA? Has there just not been enough testing on the XTD to say whether it has smoothing and acceleration or not?

There a few models that are on the list to be added. I have not updated the guide in a while, but I will update and improve it in a few weeks once things settle down at work.

Are we getting any closer to this update? Looking forward to seeing it.

Yes we are :). I had never imagined this guide would be visited this many times, and I feel a responsibility to keep it somewhat up to date. It will be a gradual one however, so I will start adding things one by one, and changing some small things in the guide, instead of doing one huge overhaul. I will start with the most popular mice that came out since the last update of the guide.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Novus on Wed, 22 April 2015, 16:57:54
Good evening,
I bought the Logitech G502 and I was fine with it, but the last days I am feeling my hand "hurt & tiered" with it! I have my hand not too small, but when I tried it was fine, so I bought it! I like his HW and would love something to change for! something as good as Logitech G502 but more comfortable!
But I have MAC OS X (iMac 27") , and not all works well with! I thought on the Steelseries Wireless, or Cyborg RAT 9, Roccat Tyon, or anything else money it is not a problem! I tried also Razer Naga 2014 but between Logitech, I prefer Logitech!

Can anyone advise me something?

G303
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Eszett on Thu, 23 April 2015, 20:21:38
My suspicion 1: more expensive mouse is not always better mouse.
My suspicion 2: there are some minor differences in mice (e. g. sensor quality), but none that would justify a difference in price from 20€ to 100€.
My suspicion 3: crappy plastic everywhere. You can praise the lord when its not toxic.
My suspicion 4: there is no mouse for huge hands.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Fri, 24 April 2015, 00:53:22
Good evening,
I bought the Logitech G502 and I was fine with it, but the last days I am feeling my hand "hurt & tiered" with it! I have my hand not too small, but when I tried it was fine, so I bought it! I like his HW and would love something to change for! something as good as Logitech G502 but more comfortable!
But I have MAC OS X (iMac 27") , and not all works well with! I thought on the Steelseries Wireless, or Cyborg RAT 9, Roccat Tyon, or anything else money it is not a problem! I tried also Razer Naga 2014 but between Logitech, I prefer Logitech!

Can anyone advise me something?

G303

Love the G303 sensor and everything about it but from what I'm reading I cannot recommend it for comfort. Many complain about an awkward grip on it with the sides sticking out too much.
I'm guessing it was recommended for the same sensor (PMW3366) which then I would agree, if the sensor is a priority then G303 is the only option.
I would love to try it out soon though... or they should release this exact mouse in a G3/G400 shell.

If you liked the G503 sort of feel and want similar performing mice, with priority on comfort, I would look at Logitech G400s, Zowie EC1/2-a or FK2(FK2 not as comfortable), Steelseries Rival, Corsair M45, etc.
A lesser performing option, albeit good, would be a Razer Deathadder.
Heck, even Logitech's wireless mice are "good" if you really just want comfort (G700s, and the MX Master rofl).
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sat, 02 May 2015, 14:37:57
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sat, 02 May 2015, 19:19:38
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.

I would look at Steelseries Rival, Zowie EC1/2-a, FK2(not really palm grip), or other Steelseries mice like Sensei or Kinzu.

G502 has one of the best sensors and is palm grip but it's a bit heavy for CSGO imo. Sensei and Kinzu have older sensors.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sat, 02 May 2015, 19:39:29
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.

I would look at Steelseries Rival, Zowie EC1/2-a, FK2(not really palm grip), or other Steelseries mice like Sensei or Kinzu.

G502 has one of the best sensors and is palm grip but it's a bit heavy for CSGO imo. Sensei and Kinzu have older sensors.
hmm i try the fk2 on friend home and i was good to my hand little bit small but ok..
g502 look to much big!
so what u think... .
how is da13?
btw im right hand.. g502 look left hand
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sat, 02 May 2015, 19:45:58
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.

I would look at Steelseries Rival, Zowie EC1/2-a, FK2(not really palm grip), or other Steelseries mice like Sensei or Kinzu.

G502 has one of the best sensors and is palm grip but it's a bit heavy for CSGO imo. Sensei and Kinzu have older sensors.
hmm i try the fk2 on friend home and i was good to my hand little bit small but ok..
g502 look to much big!
so what u think... .
how is da13?
btw im right hand.. g502 look left hand

Ahh, I see. Yeah I agree on FK2, the size is a little small if you want to palm grip (there's no round groove that extends to your inner palm).
The G502 is kind of like an MX518/G400 shell. I wish it was. There's lot of buttons and I didn't know how to grip it. It's definitely right-handed, but It does have some funky edges and angles.
The Deathadder is a decent choice. But my friend who was using it switched to FK1 after trying it lol. Now he can't seem to go back.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sat, 02 May 2015, 21:04:36
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.

I would look at Steelseries Rival, Zowie EC1/2-a, FK2(not really palm grip), or other Steelseries mice like Sensei or Kinzu.

G502 has one of the best sensors and is palm grip but it's a bit heavy for CSGO imo. Sensei and Kinzu have older sensors.
hmm i try the fk2 on friend home and i was good to my hand little bit small but ok..
g502 look to much big!
so what u think... .
how is da13?
btw im right hand.. g502 look left hand

Ahh, I see. Yeah I agree on FK2, the size is a little small if you want to palm grip (there's no round groove that extends to your inner palm).
The G502 is kind of like an MX518/G400 shell. I wish it was. There's lot of buttons and I didn't know how to grip it. It's definitely right-handed, but It does have some funky edges and angles.
The Deathadder is a decent choice. But my friend who was using it switched to FK1 after trying it lol. Now he can't seem to go back.
so what do u think fk2 ?
i heard like he have lag or something like this ..but i know hes sensor very good
i see a lot of players useing the rival.. but i heard hes sensor die after 2\1 month and i didnt like the rival :>
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sat, 02 May 2015, 21:21:43
so which mouse should i buy?
i play csgo..
450\400 dpi and Palm Grip.

I would look at Steelseries Rival, Zowie EC1/2-a, FK2(not really palm grip), or other Steelseries mice like Sensei or Kinzu.

G502 has one of the best sensors and is palm grip but it's a bit heavy for CSGO imo. Sensei and Kinzu have older sensors.
hmm i try the fk2 on friend home and i was good to my hand little bit small but ok..
g502 look to much big!
so what u think... .
how is da13?
btw im right hand.. g502 look left hand

Ahh, I see. Yeah I agree on FK2, the size is a little small if you want to palm grip (there's no round groove that extends to your inner palm).
The G502 is kind of like an MX518/G400 shell. I wish it was. There's lot of buttons and I didn't know how to grip it. It's definitely right-handed, but It does have some funky edges and angles.
The Deathadder is a decent choice. But my friend who was using it switched to FK1 after trying it lol. Now he can't seem to go back.
so what do u think fk2 ?
i heard like he have lag or something like this ..but i know hes sensor very good
i see a lot of players useing the rival.. but i heard hes sensor die after 2\1 month and i didnt like the rival :>

The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sat, 02 May 2015, 22:06:21

[/quote]

The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
[/quote]
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sun, 03 May 2015, 11:36:36
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sun, 03 May 2015, 21:24:05
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
OK TY BRO
NOW FOR MY FRIEND :
he have 3 mouse he want to buy:
1.Logitech G302
2.steelseries sensei raw
3.Logitech G100s
he play also csgo//
which one is the best ? :
thank for thelp
btw - i buy the fk2 is amazing! which mouse pad should i use with him?
and how much mouse hz ?
thank u
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sun, 03 May 2015, 21:52:58
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
OK TY BRO
NOW FOR MY FRIEND :
he have 3 mouse he want to buy:
1.Logitech G302
2.steelseries sensei raw
3.Logitech G100s
he play also csgo//
which one is the best ? :
thank for thelp

Sure thing friend.
It would depend on what he likes best. Now we're entering territory of personal preference.
They have old sensors and in my opinion not the top choice, but I think when it comes to gaming mice it doesn't matter TOO much as long as you can play well with it.
With long time use, it shouldn't matter that much what equipment you have.
Does your friend know the G303? G303 has the 3366 sensor, might want to look at that. G302 is good for dota, idk how good it is.
G100s was used by some pros before. I do love the shape. I can't give you my personal experience on these.
My favorite sensors are 3310 an 3366 so that's just what I go by recently.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sun, 03 May 2015, 22:01:24
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
OK TY BRO
NOW FOR MY FRIEND :
he have 3 mouse he want to buy:
1.Logitech G302
2.steelseries sensei raw
3.Logitech G100s
he play also csgo//
which one is the best ? :
thank for thelp

Sure thing friend.
It would depend on what he likes best. Now we're entering territory of personal preference.
They have old sensors and in my opinion not the top choice, but I think when it comes to gaming mice it doesn't matter TOO much as long as you can play well with it.
Does your friend know the G303? G303 has the 3366 sensor, might want to look at that. G302 is good for dota, idk how good it is.
G100s was used by some pros before. I do love the shape. I can't give you my personal experience on these.
My favorite sensors are 3310 an 3366 so that's just what I go by recently.
he see shroud with g302 and he say this mouse look good :S
g303 look like g302 ..
anyway if g303 for dota i he will buy the sensei raw\g100s ..
which sensor g100s use ?:P
btw on the fk2 1000hz or 500hz?
ty
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Sun, 03 May 2015, 22:13:38
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
OK TY BRO
NOW FOR MY FRIEND :
he have 3 mouse he want to buy:
1.Logitech G302
2.steelseries sensei raw
3.Logitech G100s
he play also csgo//
which one is the best ? :
thank for thelp

Sure thing friend.
It would depend on what he likes best. Now we're entering territory of personal preference.
They have old sensors and in my opinion not the top choice, but I think when it comes to gaming mice it doesn't matter TOO much as long as you can play well with it.
Does your friend know the G303? G303 has the 3366 sensor, might want to look at that. G302 is good for dota, idk how good it is.
G100s was used by some pros before. I do love the shape. I can't give you my personal experience on these.
My favorite sensors are 3310 an 3366 so that's just what I go by recently.
he see shroud with g302 and he say this mouse look good :S
g303 look like g302 ..
anyway if g303 for dota i he will buy the sensei raw\g100s ..
which sensor g100s use ?:P
btw on the fk2 1000hz or 500hz?
ty

I think the G302 and G100s both use the same sensor, AM010.
I can't help you with G100s too much. Shroud used to use it, now he's on a G303.
1000hz on the FK2, you will get the right settings after you try it out. 400dpi/1000hz works for me.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: zoro1544 on Sun, 03 May 2015, 22:17:33
Quote
The FK2 is an amazing mouse. I use the FK1 myself and what I got is consistency that allowed me to build up muscle memory to get better.
I don't think it's flawless but it's the closest thing I've used up to date. A softer left-right click and minute changes in the dimensions/shape would make it the perfect mouse for me.
Sensor wise, the Rival and FK2 both use the same sensor, the Avago 3310. It has to be one of my favorite sensors.
The Rival is a little heavier and larger. If you have liked anything like an Intellimouse 3.0 in the past, then there would be no better choice. It's a shame I can't give any direct review on it because I haven't used it extensively, but I remember watching this video for a good comparison:

Rival review:

edit: Your friend must have been talking about button lag on the FK series. Yes, there's a very small lag and it's a little more tiring than your usual mouse.
right now im with the ec2..
will buy the fk2 or ec2-a which have better sensor?
EC2-a also uses the same Avago 3310 :thumb:
OK TY BRO
NOW FOR MY FRIEND :
he have 3 mouse he want to buy:
1.Logitech G302
2.steelseries sensei raw
3.Logitech G100s
he play also csgo//
which one is the best ? :
thank for thelp

Sure thing friend.
It would depend on what he likes best. Now we're entering territory of personal preference.
They have old sensors and in my opinion not the top choice, but I think when it comes to gaming mice it doesn't matter TOO much as long as you can play well with it.
Does your friend know the G303? G303 has the 3366 sensor, might want to look at that. G302 is good for dota, idk how good it is.
G100s was used by some pros before. I do love the shape. I can't give you my personal experience on these.
My favorite sensors are 3310 an 3366 so that's just what I go by recently.
he see shroud with g302 and he say this mouse look good :S
g303 look like g302 ..
anyway if g303 for dota i he will buy the sensei raw\g100s ..
which sensor g100s use ?:P
btw on the fk2 1000hz or 500hz?
ty

I think the G302 and G100s both use the same sensor, AM010.
I can't help you with G100s too much. Shroud used to use it, now he's on a G303.
1000hz on the FK2, you will get the right settings after you try it out. 400dpi/1000hz works for me.
on his stream his saying he use g302.. weird nvm
which mouse pad to use on the fk2?
steelseries 4hd or qck+ ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sorijealut on Mon, 04 May 2015, 11:04:36
Yeah his stream says it's g302 but it's actually g303.
I like QcK series. Heavy or +.
It's getting a little lengthy here so you can PM me if you have more questions  :thumb:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davidbag on Tue, 05 May 2015, 03:04:22
Good evening,
I bought the Logitech G502 and I was fine with it, but the last days I am feeling my hand "hurt & tiered" with it! I have my hand not too small, but when I tried it was fine, so I bought it! I like his HW and would love something to change for! something as good as Logitech G502 but more comfortable!
But I have MAC OS X (iMac 27") , and not all works well with! I thought on the Steelseries Wireless, or Cyborg RAT 9, Roccat Tyon, or anything else money it is not a problem! I tried also Razer Naga 2014 but between Logitech, I prefer Logitech!

Can anyone advise me something?

G303

Love the G303 sensor and everything about it but from what I'm reading I cannot recommend it for comfort. Many complain about an awkward grip on it with the sides sticking out too much.
I'm guessing it was recommended for the same sensor (PMW3366) which then I would agree, if the sensor is a priority then G303 is the only option.
I would love to try it out soon though... or they should release this exact mouse in a G3/G400 shell.

If you liked the G503 sort of feel and want similar performing mice, with priority on comfort, I would look at Logitech G400s, Zowie EC1/2-a or FK2(FK2 not as comfortable), Steelseries Rival, Corsair M45, etc.
A lesser performing option, albeit good, would be a Razer Deathadder.
Heck, even Logitech's wireless mice are "good" if you really just want comfort (G700s, and the MX Master rofl).

Good evening,
I bought the Logitech G502 and I was fine with it, but the last days I am feeling my hand "hurt & tiered" with it! I have my hand not too small, but when I tried it was fine, so I bought it! I like his HW and would love something to change for! something as good as Logitech G502 but more comfortable!
But I have MAC OS X (iMac 27") , and not all works well with! I thought on the Steelseries Wireless, or Cyborg RAT 9, Roccat Tyon, or anything else money it is not a problem! I tried also Razer Naga 2014 but between Logitech, I prefer Logitech!

Can anyone advise me something?

G303

Hi thanks for the answers and help!
I am trying one Naga Epic Chroma! I like, but it is not the kind of mouse that I do WOW!

I am looking first off all a Wireless mouse, because for me helps me a lot, but I can live with a wired mouse if I do not find a wireless good mouse!

I was looking for the RAT 9, The Sensei Wireless, Razer Naga Epic Chroma, or even the Logitech MX Master (just 1800dpi).

Who have already tested all of them, or give-me some lights  where I should go...PLEASE
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Doppelganger on Wed, 13 May 2015, 08:38:15
I’m unclear on a particular mouse spec and was hoping someone here could clear things up a bit. People (mostly gamers) talk about acceleration as being a negative thing, yet a spec that is frequently referred to on mice is always present. For example the CM Storm Spawn’s acceleration is listed as 20G, while the Logitech G402’s is 15G. 

Is acceleration a good or a bad thing in this regard? In that case, is 15G better than 20G because there is less acceleration, or do I have that backwards and higher is better?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 13 May 2015, 13:16:34
I�m unclear on a particular mouse spec and was hoping someone here could clear things up a bit. People (mostly gamers) talk about acceleration as being a negative thing, yet a spec that is frequently referred to on mice is always present. For example the CM Storm Spawn�s acceleration is listed as 20G, while the Logitech G402�s is 15G. 

Is acceleration a good or a bad thing in this regard? In that case, is 15G better than 20G because there is less acceleration, or do I have that backwards and higher is better?


That's an entirely different acceleration.  The 20G just means that the mouse can withstand 20Gs of acceleration before it stops tracking properly and is essentially irrelevant.  The acceleration you see people criticizing has to do with movement of the cursor based on your physical movement speed.  Ideally, if you move a mouse 10cm it simply moves X distance on-screen, regardless of how fast you move it.  With mouse acceleration, if you move the mouse 10cm at 1m/s it'll move a different distance on-screen than 10cm at 3m/s.  This adds another variable to aiming, since it's no longer a simple matter of moving your mouse but making sure you do it at the correct speed.  But the biggest problem is that it turns out the acceleration usually isn't even consistent (logitech apparently likes to call it speed-related accuracy variance to reflect this).

Article with more about this as well as some other stuff worth reading:

http://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-mouse-myths-busted/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Doppelganger on Wed, 13 May 2015, 15:27:20
^ Great explanation, thanks a_a. I was mainly asking, because I just ordered up a G402 that features 15G acceleration, which is actually a bit lower than my previous mouse can handle. At the same time, it can handle MUCH higher IPS. Go figure! To mu current understanding, it seems both would need to be higher, to work in tandem with on another. How can a mouse handle more IPS but use less acceleration to get there? lol. Then again its Logitech's Fusion Engine and may be an entirely different beast.

I will definitely read up on it a bit more with the link you provided.
Title: Using non-native CPIs
Post by: ZFR on Fri, 12 June 2015, 18:31:01
Hi,

I have a question regarding using mice in non-native CPI.

I'm using Logitech G400s, which has a Avago ADNS S3095 sensor, which if I'm not mistaken has a native CPIs of 800 and 3600 (correct me if I'm wrong here...).

I find 800 CPI setting a bit too slow, while 3600 way too fast (I want to stay at 6/11). 1200 is just about right.

Now I understand that using non-native CPI means interpolation has to be done by the sensor, but if the CPI I'm running at is an integer divisor of native CPI, then the interpolation is trivial, right? So using a mouse at for example 1200 or 1800 CPI with a 3600 sensor should have no effect on performance, and no jitter or any other problems. Is that correct, or am I missing something here?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Ultimo on Tue, 16 June 2015, 18:28:45
For what it's worth my share of experience with the Corsair M45 mouse.
I noticed the starting post and follow ups did have a couple of unanswered questions.

Forgive me for my english btw.

I do think this m45 of mine is a great gaming mouse, it does have the loose scrolling wheel.
So when throwing the mouse around while gaming, will result in the well known rattle.

I am using it intensivly and dont notice any surface wear, which is good.
The surface does tend to hold fatty substances for a long time, so sweaty palms and doritos fingers ;)
The sleeved cord is a good quality one, my old g500 mouses did give in and didnt like getting fumbled, corsair doesnt mind.

Also, the shape of the mouse doesnt seem to be comfortable for long sessions at first look.
But after gaming 1year/1.5years i dont have any complaints in my joints in my hand.

Feel free to ask me anything, will try to monitor this thread the coming days.

Title: Re: Using non-native CPIs
Post by: Bucake on Wed, 17 June 2015, 12:39:04
I'm using Logitech G400s, which has a Avago ADNS S3095 sensor, which if I'm not mistaken has a native CPIs of 800 and 3600 (correct me if I'm wrong here...).

Now I understand that using non-native CPI means interpolation has to be done by the sensor, but if the CPI I'm running at is an integer divisor of native CPI, then the interpolation is trivial, right? So using a mouse at for example 1200 or 1800 CPI with a 3600 sensor should have no effect on performance, and no jitter or any other problems. Is that correct, or am I missing something here?

it's 800 and 4000 for the G400S. (it was the G400 that has 800 and 3600.)

i suggest taking your question about interpolation over to overclock.net.
in the mice section (http://www.overclock.net/f/375/mice), they have a bunch of very knowledgeable people.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ReThorb_ on Thu, 18 June 2015, 11:34:15
Hi there,

I was wondering what sensor (or mouse) I should get for 1200/1400dpi and 100% in-game mouse sensitivity.
Any recommendations are welcome.


Thanks in advance,

ReThorb_

Edit: I am a user of a laser mouse with accelr. turned off (I can't tell if thats 100% legit) and I am wondering if switching to optical will make a difference.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 18 June 2015, 14:48:55
I was wondering what sensor (or mouse) I should get for 1200/1400dpi and 100% in-game mouse sensitivity.

Edit: I am a user of a laser mouse with accelr. turned off (I can't tell if thats 100% legit) and I am wondering if switching to optical will make a difference.

optical gives you more precise cursor-movement, it's basically that simple.
especially for gaming, optical beats laser.

though, it's sort of impossible to know what you mean with "1200/1400 dpi and 100% sensitivity", because every single game has its own code for sensitivity.
meaning that game X at max. sensitivity will be 100 times faster than game Y at max. sensitivity.

that said; if you really want 1200-1400 dpi then i suggest getting a mouse that has software available for it. (because very few mice have a dpi-step around 1200-1400, without software.)
two companies that come to mind are Logitech and Razer, they have mice and software that are very customizable.
there are probably a bunch of mice out there with the pmw3310 sensor that are also capable of 1200-1400 dpi with software, but none come to mind right now..
Title: Re: Using non-native CPIs
Post by: ZFR on Sat, 20 June 2015, 07:32:55
it's 800 and 4000 for the G400S. (it was the G400 that has 800 and 3600.)

i suggest taking your question about interpolation over to overclock.net.
in the mice section (http://www.overclock.net/f/375/mice), they have a bunch of very knowledgeable people.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MrRooks on Thu, 25 June 2015, 14:57:15
Does anyone have information on the sensor in the g600? I have that mouse and love it to death. The big downside being the weight. I just learned there are some weights on the inside. I ordered a PTFE sheet so I can replace the feet after I take it apart to remove the weights. I love the button for the ring finger, that's probably my favorite thing about the mouse. I don't even play MMOs(anymore) I just like having that many buttons for everything.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Fri, 26 June 2015, 00:25:55
Avago ADNS-9800 (i think logitech calls their implementation of it the S9808)
it's a laser sensor, thus has the expected "speed-related accuracy variance" (commonly referred to as 'acceleration').
apparently has(had) some input lag, but maybe this has been fixed(?)

i guess it's not bad, but certainly not great :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MrRooks on Fri, 26 June 2015, 10:08:44
Avago ADNS-9800 (i think logitech calls their implementation of it the S9808)
it's a laser sensor, thus has the expected "speed-related accuracy variance" (commonly referred to as 'acceleration').
apparently has(had) some input lag, but maybe this has been fixed(?)

i guess it's not bad, but certainly not great :-)

Thanks for that information. I wish it had a better sensor though. :(

Though it's probably good enough for the gaming I do. I don't do anything competitive, the most mouse based game I play is Smite.

I did take the weights out of it and wow what a difference. I bought a sheet of PTFE with adhesive back and made my own feet.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Mon, 06 July 2015, 22:58:18
The FinalMouse and Ninox Aurora should be added to the OP.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: silk186 on Tue, 07 July 2015, 08:56:07
I've searched through this thread but haven't found a very clear answer. I currently use a Logitech MX518 and an anywehre MX. My last few mice have all been MX518. I really enjoy the 5 button layout but the mouse is too slow (low DPI) even when mouse sensitivity is turned up in windows. At default it crawls along. The anywhere MX has a great sensor and I use it around the livingroom, soft, pant leg and kitchen table. It surves my need as a mobile mouse. I would like to replace my Logitech MX518 but don't know which models I should consider. The Logitech G400S seems like an obvious (ugly) choice. I want a similar right handed shape with a 5 button layout. I would prefer a better scroll wheel and like the wheel on the anywhere MX. I require a better sensor, preferably one that works on most surfaces. I've seen the Zowie FK1 mentioned in this thread. What are the recommended MX518 upgrades?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 07 July 2015, 09:40:55
I've searched through this thread but haven't found a very clear answer. I currently use a Logitech MX518 and an anywehre MX. My last few mice have all been MX518. I really enjoy the 5 button layout but the mouse is too slow (low DPI) even when mouse sensitivity is turned up in windows. At default it crawls along. The anywhere MX has a great sensor and I use it around the livingroom, soft, pant leg and kitchen table. It surves my need as a mobile mouse. I would like to replace my Logitech MX518 but don't know which models I should consider. The Logitech G400S seems like an obvious (ugly) choice. I want a similar right handed shape with a 5 button layout. I would prefer a better scroll wheel and like the wheel on the anywhere MX. I require a better sensor, preferably one that works on most surfaces. I've seen the Zowie FK1 mentioned in this thread. What are the recommended MX518 upgrades?

Have you looked into the Mionix Naos 7000 (using a Avior 7000 myself)? It features the IMHO best-of-all-time sensor ADNS-3310 sensor.

I've used the G400s for a year and really hated the smoothing in that thing (i.e., the lag when starting to move the mouse). It oftentimes led me to miss click a button just because the mouse just went over the button instead of on it, etc. The smoothing drove me away from that mouse. When I started using the Avior 7000, I felt so relieved because the smoothing wasn't there and the mouse movements are just spot on. I also play some FPS (regularly though, not a hardcore gamer) and it feels just right for me.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: silk186 on Tue, 07 July 2015, 09:47:51
I will look into the Mionix Naos 7000 thought it is a bit on the expensive side but sometimes you need to pay for quality.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 07 July 2015, 16:12:14
I will look into the Mionix Naos 7000 thought it is a bit on the expensive side but sometimes you need to pay for quality.

In my experience it is great quality and I have three of them, 2 which I use daily and the other one used by my GF daily. No visible sign of wear even though this thing is rubber coated, mouse feet still awesome, and scroll wheel also great. The only thing that varies with the Naos 7000 is how stiff the scroll wheel is in the beginning, but to my feel they are almost the same across the 3 I have.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Wed, 08 July 2015, 00:25:43
I've searched through this thread but haven't found a very clear answer. I currently use a Logitech MX518 and an anywehre MX. My last few mice have all been MX518. I really enjoy the 5 button layout but the mouse is too slow (low DPI) even when mouse sensitivity is turned up in windows. At default it crawls along. The anywhere MX has a great sensor and I use it around the livingroom, soft, pant leg and kitchen table. It surves my need as a mobile mouse. I would like to replace my Logitech MX518 but don't know which models I should consider. The Logitech G400S seems like an obvious (ugly) choice. I want a similar right handed shape with a 5 button layout. I would prefer a better scroll wheel and like the wheel on the anywhere MX. I require a better sensor, preferably one that works on most surfaces. I've seen the Zowie FK1 mentioned in this thread. What are the recommended MX518 upgrades?

lol. Put window's slider in the middle, uncheck "enhance pointer precision", then set the 518 to the max dpi setting. That's extremely high.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Mon, 13 July 2015, 11:27:38
apparently the earliest batch of 3310 models (Avior/NAOS 7000, Zowie FK1, SS Rival etc.) are still the premier mice on the market. this was one and a half year ago, i was quite surprised to see the mouse landscape remaining the same since i stopped following it
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MaximilianKohler on Mon, 13 July 2015, 13:16:31
That's not really correct.

The FK1 was one of the worst implementations of the 3310. Zowie seems to have improved their 3310 in their newer mice. Rival is also definitely not one of the best.

Of the ones I've tested:

1. MLT04
2. FinalMouse, DA4g
3. KPM, Aurora
4. 3366, Avior/Naos 7k pre-firmware update that is said to have improved the mouse, but I had already returned mine so I couldn't test it.
5. AM, FK, DA 3.5g, Rival, FK1
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Linkh on Thu, 16 July 2015, 01:21:43
Hey! Just a recommendation, you should add the rog gladius to the list. it has the same sensor as the razer deathadder (S3988) and is actually pretty decent!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Thu, 16 July 2015, 19:29:30
Are we getting any closer to this update? Looking forward to seeing it.

Yes we are :). I had never imagined this guide would be visited this many times, and I feel a responsibility to keep it somewhat up to date. It will be a gradual one however, so I will start adding things one by one, and changing some small things in the guide, instead of doing one huge overhaul. I will start with the most popular mice that came out since the last update of the guide.

This guide is awesome. Can't wait to see what you add to the list.
I think peripheral manufacturers have made "perfect" sensors a priority in the last year, so there are quite a few seemingly excellent options that I'm curious about.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: v0idtek on Wed, 22 July 2015, 00:08:14
Not sure what that note about the Avior 7000 having jitters at high DPI means - I've never experienced the mouse jittering or misbehaving in any way.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Tue, 28 July 2015, 13:29:10
Not sure what that note about the Avior 7000 having jitters at high DPI means - I've never experienced the mouse jittering or misbehaving in any way.

I've not used the Avior 7000 myself, but may be difficult to notice.

The jitter may have been visible in testing but not as noticeable when using the mouse.
It's also possible the jitter only occurs above the DPI setting that you are using.

This is a very minor issue as most users operate at or below 1600 DPI, and the mouse's max setting is 7000 DPI.

Also, not that you would, but don't let a minor note ruin your love of the mouse. It is, after all, still on the list of mice with superior sensors. :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Tue, 28 July 2015, 13:31:03
Not sure what that note about the Avior 7000 having jitters at high DPI means - I've never experienced the mouse jittering or misbehaving in any way.

I forgot to mention that the guide was last updated in August '14, nearly a year ago.

It is entirely possible that a firmware update fixed this jitter. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Tue, 28 July 2015, 13:34:05
Not sure what that note about the Avior 7000 having jitters at high DPI means - I've never experienced the mouse jittering or misbehaving in any way.

In fact, "Interpolation fix from 5000 to 7000dpi" is listed on the latest firmware for the mouse, which you may already have installed if you recently purchased the mouse!

http://support.mionix.net/entries/66256899-AVIOR-7000-Firmware-Version-3-08
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: thegreenlizard on Sat, 05 September 2015, 08:31:07
I would like to supply aditional information on the RAT 3 (the optical black mad catz non-glossy version). It has been bought in August 2015.

An enotus mouse test (without the smoothness part), along with some lines in paint to show you the lack of jittering.

The mouse does NOT have its drivers installed (they don't help with anything), nor the programming software (I can easily remap the buttons with something like autohotkey while the coloured toggle doesn't give me any advantages). Testing has been done at the 3rd tracking speed (1800 DPI) on a white sheet of paper (in a good but not perfect condition). No modding or other things.

P.S. The mouse goes in the PC through a belkin 3-meter usb 2.0 cable (because mouse is far away).

Conclusion:
Precision - ~ about 98.5%
Default Polling speed: 879 Hz
Max speed: 2.39 m/s (I had to artificially try to get that speed, I doubt anyone would ever reach it under any gaming circumstances)

(sorry, no smoothness, I don't have experience testing it properly :D )

P.S.2. If stuff breaks within it, I have 2 years to send it back to warranty or re-solder things myself. Some people were able to keep it for over 3 years, it depends on your luck (some guys got not-so-well-made units). Most of them seem to be ok though, and it's selling as fast as fresh&hot bread :)

Thank you for your time, Grim Fandango!!!  :thumb:

EDIT: It's not july for the picture - it's then when I started looking for a mouse and I have managed to find mine some time later :D

P.S.3. On the box it says ©2014 Mad Catz
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sat, 12 September 2015, 03:44:56
Planning to start doing some updates this upcoming week. Been a while, but it is coming. Currently my goal is to just get the list up to date.

Edit: added some mice to the list. Not entirely done yet.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: TheO-RingGuys on Tue, 15 September 2015, 22:02:06
Very nice writeup.

I especially liked the section that cleared stuff up on what DPI actually is. Thanks for pointing that out!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Mon, 05 October 2015, 03:04:10
I would like to supply aditional information on the RAT 3 (the optical black mad catz non-glossy version). It has been bought in August 2015.

An enotus mouse test (without the smoothness part), along with some lines in paint to show you the lack of jittering.

The mouse does NOT have its drivers installed (they don't help with anything), nor the programming software (I can easily remap the buttons with something like autohotkey while the coloured toggle doesn't give me any advantages). Testing has been done at the 3rd tracking speed (1800 DPI) on a white sheet of paper (in a good but not perfect condition). No modding or other things.

P.S. The mouse goes in the PC through a belkin 3-meter usb 2.0 cable (because mouse is far away).

Conclusion:
Precision - ~ about 98.5%
Default Polling speed: 879 Hz
Max speed: 2.39 m/s (I had to artificially try to get that speed, I doubt anyone would ever reach it under any gaming circumstances)

(sorry, no smoothness, I don't have experience testing it properly :D )

P.S.2. If stuff breaks within it, I have 2 years to send it back to warranty or re-solder things myself. Some people were able to keep it for over 3 years, it depends on your luck (some guys got not-so-well-made units). Most of them seem to be ok though, and it's selling as fast as fresh&hot bread :)

Thank you for your time, Grim Fandango!!!  :thumb:

EDIT: It's not july for the picture - it's then when I started looking for a mouse and I have managed to find mine some time later :D

P.S.3. On the box it says ©2014 Mad Catz

Thanks for this. I somehow missed your post before.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: alexofthewest on Tue, 06 October 2015, 13:02:08
I noticed the fk-2 is not on the list, If I am not mistaken it is the exact same mouse as the fk-1 except for a slightly smaller shell and curved lip at the very end for fingertips.

I thought this was an amazingly well written thread on mice, except I wish it addressed ergonomics at least in terms of size. Mouse size for me is as important as the sensor's quality because my very small hands cannot reach the side buttons on MOST mice including the arguably small zowie fk-1.  It is truly a challenge finding a good comprehensive list of mice that meet that criteria.  On returning my fk1. I am debating between the fk-2 and ec2a, hoping those will be ideal.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Tue, 06 October 2015, 18:08:20
I noticed the fk-2 is not on the list, If I am not mistaken it is the exact same mouse as the fk-1 except for a slightly smaller shell and curved lip at the very end for fingertips.

I thought this was an amazingly well written thread on mice, except I wish it addressed ergonomics at least in terms of size. Mouse size for me is as important as the sensor's quality because my very small hands cannot reach the side buttons on MOST mice including the arguably small zowie fk-1.  It is truly a challenge finding a good comprehensive list of mice that meet that criteria.  On returning my fk1. I am debating between the fk-2 and ec2a, hoping those will be ideal.

Thanks for pointing that out. The FK-2 is one of the mice that is on the list to be added, along with a number of other mice that need some looking in to, including the Rival 100. I will get around to it soon.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 06 October 2015, 19:03:30
glad to see this is still alive! very good reference thread. : )
good stuff Grim!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sevs on Sat, 10 October 2015, 14:54:48
Any thoughts on the Asus ROG Gladius? I found it on sale here in Norway. My MS Basic Optical 2.0s are good, but they need an upgrade.

Apparently the Gladius uses a S988 sensor, and some people suffer from various problems like coating wearing off, click delay, double clicking and diagonal tracking problems.

It weighs 116g, a little bit too heavy for me I think.

Thank you for a comprehensive list and well-written words on mice and sensors. It is amazing to see peple take their time to write these things.

Also, this is my first post on this fantastic enthusiast-filled forum. I hope to spend some time here. :D

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: exit on Tue, 13 October 2015, 16:53:48
Any thoughts on the Asus ROG Gladius? I found it on sale here in Norway. My MS Basic Optical 2.0s are good, but they need an upgrade.

Apparently the Gladius uses a S988 sensor, and some people suffer from various problems like coating wearing off, click delay, double clicking and diagonal tracking problems.

It weighs 116g, a little bit too heavy for me I think.

Thank you for a comprehensive list and well-written words on mice and sensors. It is amazing to see peple take their time to write these things.

Also, this is my first post on this fantastic enthusiast-filled forum. I hope to spend some time here. :D

Good mouse if you don't mind the weight. Note that it comes with more than the usual amount of accessories such as extra switches and a carrying pouch.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: ZeroDHero93 on Wed, 04 November 2015, 02:46:44
Hi, what you think about the Corsair Gaming Sabre Optical RGB Gaming Mouse With the S3988 Sensor?

Thanks
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: thejoker1337 on Mon, 09 November 2015, 21:47:39
Why isnt g402 on this list?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Sun, 22 November 2015, 12:39:53
Why isnt g402 on this list?

Logitech did some experimental things with the sensor in the G402.

At its core, the sensor is a AM010, which is the same sensor in the G100s. This is a good sensor, except that it fails at tracking speeds higher than 2.7 m/s.
Because of this, Logitech added what they call the "Fusion Engine", which uses an accelerometer in addition to the sensor to continue tracking at very high speeds.

So I can't speak for Grim, but I would imagine this mouse is omitted from the list because of the weird "hybrid sensor".

Now, I have this mouse and I played CS with it for about a month, and the accuracy was great in my opinion. However, I rarely go over 2.5 m/s, and as far as I can tell when you are in the lower tracking speeds the mouse only uses the raw AM010. The only reason I stopped using it was because I didn't like the shape. It's a narrow mouse and made my hand cramp during longer sessions.

Here is a good review on the mouse with some details about the sensor: http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino (http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino)
The reviewer may be slightly bias because he got to test the mouse for logitech, but I think it's a good resource otherwise.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 20 December 2015, 21:23:42
Any "New Mice" on the Horizon..

If not,  I think, I'mma get another g502, gave my last one away..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Mon, 21 December 2015, 16:53:51
Any "New Mice" on the Horizon..

If not,  I think, I'mma get another g502, gave my last one away..

Two new FinalMouse models are supposed to come out very soon.
SteelSeries just released a Rival 100.
Zowie just refreshed their lineup with some small changes.

Why did you give away your g502? Are you looking for something with a similar shape or no?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 21 December 2015, 20:35:43
Any "New Mice" on the Horizon..

If not,  I think, I'mma get another g502, gave my last one away..

Two new FinalMouse models are supposed to come out very soon.
SteelSeries just released a Rival 100.
Zowie just refreshed their lineup with some small changes.

Why did you give away your g502? Are you looking for something with a similar shape or no?

Well, like when people come over my house, i give them stuff.. Cuz I have a shopping problem and I end up with triples and quadruples of the electronics I actually use....

I've gotten the habit under control for the past 2 years.. but overall.. yea that's why I gave my previous g502 away..   I am still using what I consider the best mouse though my G400 non-anglesnapper @ 800dpi.   

I need to buy a 502 because I got 2 computers now that I regularly draft on ..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Vittra on Tue, 22 December 2015, 16:49:00
Any "New Mice" on the Horizon..

If not,  I think, I'mma get another g502, gave my last one away..

Two new FinalMouse models are supposed to come out very soon.
SteelSeries just released a Rival 100.
Zowie just refreshed their lineup with some small changes.

Why did you give away your g502? Are you looking for something with a similar shape or no?

Well, like when people come over my house, i give them stuff.. Cuz I have a shopping problem and I end up with triples and quadruples of the electronics I actually use....

I've gotten the habit under control for the past 2 years.. but overall.. yea that's why I gave my previous g502 away..   I am still using what I consider the best mouse though my G400 non-anglesnapper @ 800dpi.   

I need to buy a 502 because I got 2 computers now that I regularly draft on ..

Just to elaborate - Zowie will refresh their entire lineup with Omron switches, but they are also changing the mousewheel back to 16, down from 24.

If you're running 800 cpi, stick with the G400/MX518. Nothing beats it. I only changed away from mine because 800 cpi simply wasn't enough anymore for 2560x1440 after remaining stubborn and struggling with it for way too long. Wanted to keep a good thing going. I still want to go back to one of them right now :p
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: yolorip on Fri, 25 December 2015, 14:42:14
nevermind
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 25 December 2015, 21:02:22


If you're running 800 cpi, stick with the G400/MX518. Nothing beats it. I only changed away from mine because 800 cpi simply wasn't enough anymore for 2560x1440 after remaining stubborn and struggling with it for way too long. Wanted to keep a good thing going. I still want to go back to one of them right now :p


I've been using 2560x1600 since Year 2007..   Started on Mx500 - 510 -518- G400

What do you mean (800cpi) is not enough for that resolution..  the resolution is no where near 800 cpi.

I'm also pretty sure the sensor is only something like a fewhundred pixels across. So when they say 8000 dpi..   it's really just a 100x100 sensor, but they take take thousands of fotos, then splice and compare..

They're also applying alot more smoothing at the higher dpi because of higher quantity of garbage data.  So it's for the most part Less precise, less accurate, despite being more sensitive.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Vittra on Fri, 25 December 2015, 21:46:07
That depends entirely on if you prefer incredibly precise movements at the expense of lifting the mouse a lot. I used 800 CPI for years at 2560x1440 with many different mice, including the MX518 and G400. Now I use 1600 CPI on the Mionix Castor. If I were playing FPS games primarily, it is possible I would switch back to 800 CPI.

Not all mice use interpolation for high levels of CPI until you get into the absurd numbers like the ones you are referencing - however I don't think any reasonable person would be using the advertised 5000+ levels anyway.

This link provides a fairly lucid explanation as to why someone may venture beyond 800 CPI, in tandem with adjusting IG sensitivity options (based on game):

http://eliteownage.com/mouseguide.html

Ultimately, what a person uses is going to be down to preference.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: sintklaas73 on Sat, 02 January 2016, 05:42:08
great post. thanks!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Sat, 09 January 2016, 13:29:11
http://store.madcatz.com/platforms/pc/Mad-Catz-R-A-T-PRO-X-Ultimate-Gaming-Mouse-for-PC.html


So how is this holding up?

I thought that the firmware made a huge difference in the performance of the mice so how are they handling a mouse that can use 3 different sensors?

Curious to see how it plays out. Wasn't impressed with the input lag of the rat 7 so I doubt that this will be any better.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: The_snowfall on Sat, 09 January 2016, 16:13:58
Hi all!
Since the logitech g402 is stil "in testing phase" i would like to know what alternative do i have for the same price, or cheaper.
I have been looking at some mice and have seen some that could be a good alternative, and i need a little bit of help   :confused:

Are any of those a good alternative? SteelSeries Rival 300, Mionix Avior 7000 or ROCCAT SAVU. If not, whats your recommendation?

And one last question, so far how are the opinions about the logitech g402, more positive or more negative?

(I hope to express myself well  ;) , still learning english)



Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 10 January 2016, 15:05:40
@Grim Fandango: What are your thoughts on the new Ducky "Secret Mouse"? I really like the fact that it is made of PBT and that it does not have those knobbly rubber side-grips that have become ubiquitous on mice these days. I still use my Razer DA Black Edition, but I am starting to look for replacments in case it ever wears out.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: cryptokey on Sun, 10 January 2016, 15:12:20
I'm not sure if this has been previously mentioned, but have you considered including trackballs in this list such as CST and ITAC Mouse-Trak ones?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 10 January 2016, 17:50:45
@Grim Fandango: What are your thoughts on the new Ducky "Secret Mouse"? I really like the fact that it is made of PBT and that it does not have those knobbly rubber side-grips that have become ubiquitous on mice these days. I still use my Razer DA Black Edition, but I am starting to look for replacments in case it ever wears out.

i'm actually still waiting for some good reviews on this mouse.
all my mice have very worn shells, you can just see the two spots where i click RMB and LMB :( feels very bad.
same for rubber (coating) on my mice, it just wears down and starts to feel different over time.

from time to time i check the mice section on overclock, but haven't really seen any 'proper' reviews on the Secret.
it does seem like people are unanimous about its solid build quality, so at least that sounds promising :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 11 January 2016, 08:17:51
from time to time i check the mice section on overclock, but haven't really seen any 'proper' reviews on the Secret.

That's probably due to its weight, the people on OCN who do full reviews are generally the types who don't like heavy mice.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 January 2016, 09:19:13
So the Mcat 3 sensor thing is "cool" in theory..

but i really wonder how much their team is able to flesh-out the full potential of each sensor, when they now have to break out into managing 3 different sensors.

I feel like in the end, they're just handing us an average product with reference tuning..


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Mon, 11 January 2016, 18:31:23
So the Mcat 3 sensor thing is "cool" in theory..

but i really wonder how much their team is able to flesh-out the full potential of each sensor, when they now have to break out into managing 3 different sensors.

I feel like in the end, they're just handing us an average product with reference tuning..

This is what I think too.
They're also boasting how their sensors have X amount of acceleration and angle snapping and such... Can't imagine them trying to make it good for gaming.

The Rat7 with the input lag was horrendous.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Mon, 11 January 2016, 18:34:40
Since the logitech g402 is stil "in testing phase" i would like to know what alternative do i have for the same price, or cheaper.
I have been looking at some mice and have seen some that could be a good alternative, and i need a little bit of help   :confused:

Are any of those a good alternative? SteelSeries Rival 300, Mionix Avior 7000 or ROCCAT SAVU. If not, whats your recommendation?

And one last question, so far how are the opinions about the logitech g402, more positive or more negative?

If the shape feels good to you, the g402 is a great mouse in my opinion.
Here is a positive review: http://www.overclock.net/t/1504917/logitech-g402-hyperion-fury-gaming-mouse-review-by-ino

Those alternatives you listed all have good sensors, but different shapes. I would say that out of the mice you are looking at, choose whichever is most comfortable in your hand, as they all seem to have good sensors based on what I've read. The g402 is the only one I've used personally, and I was very happy with the performance.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: fantus on Wed, 13 January 2016, 19:30:01
Hey guys do you know if the Zowie EC2-A huano switches are compatible with the Omron D2FC-F-7N? I like the actuation force of my deathadder, but I want a smaller mouse with a better sensor (1800 dpi deathadder purchased around ~2009). I have an ergodox so i figure if all i need to do is unsolder the huano and solder in the omron it should be easy, also there was a video posted on youtube of a complete dissasembly for the ec2-a

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 14 January 2016, 00:43:14
Hey guys do you know if the Zowie EC2-A huano switches are compatible with the Omron D2FC-F-7N? I like the actuation force of my deathadder, but I want a smaller mouse with a better sensor (1800 dpi deathadder purchased around ~2009).

what's wrong with your 3G DA? unless you don't like the native 1800 step, it should be a great mouse.*
can't help you with your compatibility question i'm afraid. but something tells me it should work fine.
if you can't find help here on geekhack, you could try the mice section on overclock (http://www.overclock.net/f/375/mice).

*edit: nevermind, i see you want a smaller mouse :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 14 January 2016, 09:02:36
Hey guys do you know if the Zowie EC2-A huano switches are compatible with the Omron D2FC-F-7N? I like the actuation force of my deathadder, but I want a smaller mouse with a better sensor (1800 dpi deathadder purchased around ~2009). I have an ergodox so i figure if all i need to do is unsolder the huano and solder in the omron it should be easy, also there was a video posted on youtube of a complete dissasembly for the ec2-a



You can indeed just desolder the huanos and solder in omrons.  Though keep in mind the clicks still won't be quite as light as the DA due to shell design differences.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Colt on Fri, 15 January 2016, 04:25:48
How long until they have Orion switches. I am considering getting the ec1 a or the fk. I have a weird hybrid grip that is slanted which one would you recommend. Also first post
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 January 2016, 06:03:05
How long until they have Orion switches. I am considering getting the ec1 a or the fk. I have a weird hybrid grip that is slanted which one would you recommend. Also first post

can't you just buy orion switches and solder them into your current mouse?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: fantus on Sat, 16 January 2016, 17:36:25
You can indeed just desolder the huanos and solder in omrons.  Though keep in mind the clicks still won't be quite as light as the DA due to shell design differences.

Thanks pulled the trigger on it. If I need the Omron's I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: domsch1988 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 03:44:06
hey everyone, very informative read indeed  :thumb:

My question: I'm searching for a mouse with as many buttons as possible for a mid budget. It should be rather big (i palm grip and have rather big hands, so the Performance MX e.g. is as small as i'd go) and have a decent sensor. I don't game with it, it's for work only. So sensor is not the number one priority. Apart from LMB, RMB and mouse wheel press i'd need a minimum of 5 side buttons (forward, back, and every key modifier). More is better (used for common shortcuts and macros). All Buttons need to be assignable (Apart from LMB, RMB and MMB) to minimum a keyboard key combination (alpha plus minimum 2, better 3 modifiers). If the software provides more options for the buttons, thats a bonus. I can do nearly everything through AHK if i can assign keyboard shortcuts to buttons.

I looked at the G600, which looks decent, but is on the "smaller" side of what works for me. Mad Catz is out for being to slim in every dimension. The Roccat Nyth looks really perfect (could try it live till now), but is uber expensive for a work mouse. The Corsair M95 looks good, but i'm not sure how big it is and how well Corsair peripherals are made.
So what would you recommend to me?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: JonnyPolygon on Tue, 19 January 2016, 03:49:42
Awesome post bro
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: SeanyC on Wed, 20 January 2016, 01:49:50
My question: I'm searching for a mouse with as many buttons as possible for a mid budget. It should be rather big (i palm grip and have rather big hands, so the Performance MX e.g. is as small as i'd go) and have a decent sensor. I don't game with it, it's for work only. So sensor is not the number one priority. Apart from LMB, RMB and mouse wheel press i'd need a minimum of 5 side buttons (forward, back, and every key modifier). More is better (used for common shortcuts and macros). All Buttons need to be assignable (Apart from LMB, RMB and MMB) to minimum a keyboard key combination (alpha plus minimum 2, better 3 modifiers). If the software provides more options for the buttons, thats a bonus. I can do nearly everything through AHK if i can assign keyboard shortcuts to buttons.

Razer Naga seems like it would work as it has 12 side buttons. Cheaper than the Nyth if you just get the classic. Sensor isn't perfect, but for office use it should suit your needs
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: wockytocky on Wed, 20 January 2016, 14:18:08
hey everyone, very informative read indeed  :thumb:

My question: I'm searching for a mouse with as many buttons as possible for a mid budget. It should be rather big (i palm grip and have rather big hands, so the Performance MX e.g. is as small as i'd go) and have a decent sensor. I don't game with it, it's for work only. So sensor is not the number one priority. Apart from LMB, RMB and mouse wheel press i'd need a minimum of 5 side buttons (forward, back, and every key modifier). More is better (used for common shortcuts and macros). All Buttons need to be assignable (Apart from LMB, RMB and MMB) to minimum a keyboard key combination (alpha plus minimum 2, better 3 modifiers). If the software provides more options for the buttons, thats a bonus. I can do nearly everything through AHK if i can assign keyboard shortcuts to buttons.

I looked at the G600, which looks decent, but is on the "smaller" side of what works for me. Mad Catz is out for being to slim in every dimension. The Roccat Nyth looks really perfect (could try it live till now), but is uber expensive for a work mouse. The Corsair M95 looks good, but i'm not sure how big it is and how well Corsair peripherals are made.
So what would you recommend to me?

You could look at the Razer Naga, it has plenty of side buttons. The G602 would be another great choice, although it doesn't have quite as many buttons (6 on the side plus an extra 2 on top)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: DarthBories on Thu, 21 January 2016, 18:16:35
Any info on the old Logitech Mx 1000? (Possibly the first laser mouse)  Mine is over 12 years old and still going strong, battery life still lasts days!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: fantus on Thu, 21 January 2016, 19:58:18
PSA There was a new version of the Zowie ec2-a released by Benq (who recently acquired Zowie) which changed the switches from Huano's to something lighter. They have sense been recalled to reverse the change because of unintentional double clicking. http://zowie.benq.com/news/8/zowie-mice-recall-announcement
The recalled mice have a red logo on them, not the white one.

Also, my Zowie ec2-a came in the mail and i just want to say the 1.5-1.8 mm lift of distance is wonders compared to what my Death Adder 3G had.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Fri, 22 January 2016, 15:53:14
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374831,00.asp

Anyone else want a good joke?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 23 January 2016, 13:00:42
@fantus: Yes, thanks. I saw this as well and made a separate post. I really wanted to test the 2016 model of the Zowie EC1-A, but because of this glitch, I have crossed this one off my list.

Now I am testing the Mionix Naos 7000 and Mionix Castor vs my Razer DA Black Edition. I thought I would prefer the Naos 7000, but if feels a bit too slippery when picking up the mouse. The Castor is just a tad too small. Both Mionix mice have scroll wheels that are a bit too loud for my taste. The front side button on the Castor is actually too quiet.

The DA Black is still my favorite -- I am only looking at other mice because the original DA Black is no longer in production. It is still going strong but starting to look scruffy, and when it eventually fails, I want to have a good replacement. I am going to try the current DA despite the fact that I am not a fan of knobbly rubber side grips.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 23 January 2016, 20:02:30
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374831,00.asp

Anyone else want a good joke?

Pc Mag has always been n00b stuff ..

Because they're obliged to appease their advertisers.


A computer forum, is really the only place you can say,  Hey razer,  **** you.. your keyboards SUCK..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: demik on Sun, 24 January 2016, 20:48:16
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374831,00.asp

Anyone else want a good joke?

Pc Mag has always been n00b stuff ..

Because they're obliged to appease their advertisers.


A computer forum, is really the only place you can say,  Hey razer,  **** you.. your keyboards SUCK..

i think this is the first time i've seen you curse.

and ergo dox is now made by razer? TIL
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 25 January 2016, 01:37:23
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2374831,00.asp

Anyone else want a good joke?

Pc Mag has always been n00b stuff ..

Because they're obliged to appease their advertisers.


A computer forum, is really the only place you can say,  Hey razer,  **** you.. your keyboards SUCK..

i think this is the first time i've seen you curse.

and ergo dox is now made by razer? TIL

Razer is the only brand I h8 ,  right after OCZ...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 25 January 2016, 03:39:29
so what mouse will give me the more headshots at the 80$ range?

requirment: being able to change dpi profile on the mouse direcly
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:03:58
so what mouse will give me the more headshots at the 80$ range?

requirment: being able to change dpi profile on the mouse direcly

everyone is getting the g502 right now..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: JustDont on Tue, 26 January 2016, 17:55:04
What do you guys think about the Kinzu v3?

I'm using G303 but I went back to Kinzu v2 pro because the shape and weight for me is better. Another choice would be the zowie fk2 but the newer white logo version is still not available here.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 26 January 2016, 18:17:24
What do you guys think about the Kinzu v3?

I'm using G303 but I went back to Kinzu v2 pro because the shape and weight for me is better. Another choice would be the zowie fk2 but the newer white logo version is still not available here.

I'm still not convinced the Zowie prices are justified..


Especially since the only products they got on the list are still 3090 sensors,  even then, there was the input lag issue..

Which says they're not up to snuff to the same degree as more experienced makers..

The 502 is imho the ideal choice atm, because everything else costs more, and doesn't give you anything extra.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: JustDont on Tue, 26 January 2016, 19:35:22
What do you guys think about the Kinzu v3?

I'm using G303 but I went back to Kinzu v2 pro because the shape and weight for me is better. Another choice would be the zowie fk2 but the newer white logo version is still not available here.

I'm still not convinced the Zowie prices are justified..


Especially since the only products they got on the list are still 3090 sensors,  even then, there was the input lag issue..

Which says they're not up to snuff to the same degree as more experienced makers..

The 502 is imho the ideal choice atm, because everything else costs more, and doesn't give you anything extra.

I agree, Zowie mouse are overpriced build quality and features wise. 

The issue I have with g502 is it's weight. Although I use a fairly high sensitivity in csgo @400dpi 2.5sens so weight should not be an issue but I can't risk it.

I laid my hands on the g402 which is only 15g lighter than g502 and it wasn't that far heavy at all compared to my g303 at 87g.

I loooooooooove the g303 mouse clicks and I think I'd love the g502 too but I first want to test it out.


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 10:01:02
What do you guys think about the Kinzu v3?

I'm using G303 but I went back to Kinzu v2 pro because the shape and weight for me is better. Another choice would be the zowie fk2 but the newer white logo version is still not available here.

I'm still not convinced the Zowie prices are justified..


Especially since the only products they got on the list are still 3090 sensors,  even then, there was the input lag issue..

Which says they're not up to snuff to the same degree as more experienced makers..

The 502 is imho the ideal choice atm, because everything else costs more, and doesn't give you anything extra.

Zowie mice have been using the 3310 for a while now.  FK1 debuted with it in the summer of 2014, then they refreshed the FK as the FK2 and then the EC series as the EC1-A and EC2-A a while later and now they have the ZA series that sports it.  They also lowered the click delay somewhat, not as low as Logitech (though nobody really is), but it's as good as most of the other companies now.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 28 January 2016, 06:58:45
What do you guys think about the Kinzu v3?

I'm using G303 but I went back to Kinzu v2 pro because the shape and weight for me is better. Another choice would be the zowie fk2 but the newer white logo version is still not available here.

I'm still not convinced the Zowie prices are justified..


Especially since the only products they got on the list are still 3090 sensors,  even then, there was the input lag issue..

Which says they're not up to snuff to the same degree as more experienced makers..

The 502 is imho the ideal choice atm, because everything else costs more, and doesn't give you anything extra.

Zowie mice have been using the 3310 for a while now.  FK1 debuted with it in the summer of 2014, then they refreshed the FK as the FK2 and then the EC series as the EC1-A and EC2-A a while later and now they have the ZA series that sports it.  They also lowered the click delay somewhat, not as low as Logitech (though nobody really is), but it's as good as most of the other companies now.

This input latency graph sums up nicely why Zowie is too new to the field, and don't really know what they're doing.

(http://cdn.overclock.net/c/cd/cd43a575_button_latency_testing_overall_141207.png)

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 08:51:09
Like I said, they've improved the latency since the older mice.  IIRC they're generally around 7-8ms slower than a G303 these days which puts them in the category of standard.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MykB77 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 09:26:16
Any info on the old Logitech Mx 1000? (Possibly the first laser mouse)  Mine is over 12 years old and still going strong, battery life still lasts days!
Mine also.  Unreal battery life.  It can be replaced fairly easily though if it goes.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MykB77 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 09:28:30
Anyone using the MX Master?  I had the Performance MX but found the resolution lacking for multi screen engineering.  Love hyperscroll though.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 28 January 2016, 20:24:45
Like I said, they've improved the latency since the older mice.  IIRC they're generally around 7-8ms slower than a G303 these days which puts them in the category of standard.

Well,  I'm not saying their mice are completely unusuable..  15ms - 30 ms is only around 2 frames of input lag.. most games probably don't care. (although uber pro players claim to have sensed-a-disturbance)

but the point i AM trying to illustrate is that their competance in device making is lacking, yet they had the audacity to charge such a high price out the gate..

It makes me angry...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 28 January 2016, 20:40:27
Anyone using the MX Master?  I had the Performance MX but found the resolution lacking for multi screen engineering.  Love hyperscroll though.

Get the G602, it's really the only choice atm,  because logitech knows what they're doing..


However,  the same problem with all wireless mices continue to this day..

Essentially,,   the BEST sensors uses lots of POWER..  (for a mice)..

Therefore,  the best most accurate tracking will NEVER come from a wireless mouse, unless this thing is allowed to kill the battery in like a day..


Honestly, I don't know why they don't make a wireless mouse that is designed from the get-go to swap batteries..   I think it'd be kinda cool to finish a gaming session, and then gotta recharge..  like a "mouse reload" hahahahaha

But I'm sure they group tested it, and people found it annoying over time.. 



STill,,, if you want the best tracking, ,that will inherently be power limited , and therefore MUST be wired..


If you're ok with Decent tracking..  then get the G602..   the 700s is good too, but, the 602 is newer i believe, so it probably includes fixes for the mistakes they've made on the g700.



Forgot to mention, the G602 is limited to 500 hz..  that's not a huge issue.. but again it can affect you if you're one of them uber-pr0-g4m3rz
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: MykB77 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 23:08:41
Anyone using the MX Master?  I had the Performance MX but found the resolution lacking for multi screen engineering.  Love hyperscroll though.

Get the G602, it's really the only choice atm,  because logitech knows what they're doing..


However,  the same problem with all wireless mices continue to this day..

Essentially,,   the BEST sensors uses lots of POWER..  (for a mice)..

Therefore,  the best most accurate tracking will NEVER come from a wireless mouse, unless this thing is allowed to kill the battery in like a day..


Honestly, I don't know why they don't make a wireless mouse that is designed from the get-go to swap batteries..   I think it'd be kinda cool to finish a gaming session, and then gotta recharge..  like a "mouse reload" hahahahaha

But I'm sure they group tested it, and people found it annoying over time.. 



STill,,, if you want the best tracking, ,that will inherently be power limited , and therefore MUST be wired..


If you're ok with Decent tracking..  then get the G602..   the 700s is good too, but, the 602 is newer i believe, so it probably includes fixes for the mistakes they've made on the g700.



Forgot to mention, the G602 is limited to 500 hz..  that's not a huge issue.. but again it can affect you if you're one of them uber-pr0-g4m3rz
I am currently running the G700s and a RAT 9.   Both with up to 1000hz.  And yes, I can notice a difference between 500hz and 1000hz.  I know it is only 1ms difference but if you are engineering or programming or both down to pixels it is noticeable. 

The sensor in the 602 is new and I haven't tried one yet.  The 700s is laser, the RAT is dual laser and the MX are dark field laser (had the Performance MX before).  All three track amazingly; any issues with the RAT and y axis tracking always turn out to be a speck of almost microscopic dust.

 The Performance MX and MX Revolution  before it had the best shape for a mouse for me.  The new MX Master seems good.

Unfortunately, the shape for the G700s changed promoting more of a claw grip.  Besides that it is amazing if you don't mind charging it every night.

The programmable buttons on the 602 look amazing and I would be setting up custom macros.  The only thing making me hesitate is not having hyperscroll.  I read through big pdf manuals and specifications.

If anyone has used all of these mice, out of the MX Master and 602, which has the better shape and extended comfort?

Heck.  I might just have to get both and try them.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:30:52
I'm not super sure on this..   but I believe latency goes up on wireless if it was transmitting Movement AND Click motion at the same time..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 30 January 2016, 12:31:16
Still looking for a replacement for the Razer DA Black Edition. I just bought a Razer DA Chroma to test. I like it overall, but it has one annoying issue -- the scroll wheel rattles. The rattle is most noticeable when rolling the wheel toward the top of the mouse (scrolling up).

I've seen several reports of scroll wheel rattle with the Razer DA Chroma, so this seems to be a characteristic of this mouse. My DA Black Edition does not have  this problem.

Does anyone here have recommendations for mice that have sturdy scroll wheels that do not rattle?

BTW, I am also not a fan of the 16.8 million pulsating colors that seem to be a feature on most of the gaming mice these days, but I can live with this as long as it is possible to disable the LEDs easily, especially through settings on the mouse itself rather than through software.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Sat, 30 January 2016, 13:51:48
Most wheels are louder, when scrolling up.

Current Roccat mice have probably the best wheel, that I've ever used. But they're still a bit loud, when scrolling up.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 30 January 2016, 14:45:01
Looks like I really was in luck having purchased a DA Black Edition years ago. The scroll wheel is very quiet when scrolling in either direction. There are still DA BEs available on Amazon through some vendors in Japan, but they are over $100.

I have been looking at Roccat mice. Maybe I will give them a try, although they include many bells and whistles that I do not need or want.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Sat, 30 January 2016, 16:04:57
Dunno… If you don't buy Tyon/Nyth, there's just some light (can be persistently turned off) and sometimes a braided cable… That's about it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: CeeSA on Mon, 01 February 2016, 04:58:50
@Hypershere
If you don't mind to open your mouse, buy a Zowie mouse and mod your mouse wheel. By removing some parts, you could make the wheel a free wheel that is very silent.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 01 February 2016, 08:56:40
@CeeSA: Thanks for the tip. This is a nice idea, but I prefer a notched (stepped or ratcheted) wheel rather than a free wheel.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: BigDov on Tue, 02 February 2016, 05:33:35
Anyone using the MX Master?  I had the Performance MX but found the resolution lacking for multi screen engineering.  Love hyperscroll though.


I am, and loving it.... I don't take advantage of the multiple pairings but use the heck out of it on a daily basis. In my opinion, it's a pretty great mouse.

And to address your other question about comfort, yes, it's extremely comfortable. I'm at my desk with it 8-10 hours per day, some times even more, and never get tired of using it. I had a friend over a couple weeks ago, and he loved it because he didn't have to "claw" it - same for me, too, it just fits.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Wed, 03 February 2016, 07:41:10
so... i finally got a g502 since it's the "spiritual successor" to g9x.

Way too heavy and big even without weights, wrist hurt after gaming. Using it at work for casual use and it seems okay for now but bleh.

I'd get a spawn but it only goes up to 3500 dpi

dunno what to get, considering g303 but it looks like it has a weird shape too...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 03 February 2016, 07:56:18
so... i finally got a g502 since it's the "spiritual successor" to g9x.

Way too heavy and big even without weights, wrist hurt after gaming. Using it at work for casual use and it seems okay for now but bleh.

I'd get a spawn but it only goes up to 3500 dpi

dunno what to get, considering g303 but it looks like it has a weird shape too...

The shape of the g502 is the biggest downside for me

G9x was a lot smaller and lighter.

And what games are you playing that you need 3.5k dpi o.o

I've been inching my dpi down if anything (3.2k > 1.5k)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Wed, 03 February 2016, 07:57:38
I don't like moving my wrist... if i can play osu on 3.6k i think i'm fine
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 03 February 2016, 08:52:58
so... i finally got a g502 since it's the "spiritual successor" to g9x.

Way too heavy and big even without weights, wrist hurt after gaming. Using it at work for casual use and it seems okay for now but bleh.

I'd get a spawn but it only goes up to 3500 dpi

dunno what to get, considering g303 but it looks like it has a weird shape too...

Shame you didn't ask here about it first since I would have told you the G502 is not a replacement for the G9x at all (only in terms of being their most high end wired gaming mouse).  G303 does indeed have a weird shape, some people are fine with it, some don't like it but eventually tolerate it and others simply never like it at all (and even experience cramping).  Spawn I personally don't care for a ton because of the ridges on the right, but if you don't mind that (or even like it) then it could be good.  I'd probably say check out the Xornet II instead though since the Spawn has meh firmware (pretty much all of the versions have pros/cons).

Sadly, there really just isn't a good replacement for the G9 (my favorite shape and I've tried numerous mice).  I keep hoping logitech will bring it back with the 3366 sensor but it was probably too niche for them to consider.  These days I use the Zowie ZA13, it's not a super similar shape but it's fairly short, the front is low and the back contacts my palm in a similar way as the G9 so I like it well enough. 
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 03 February 2016, 09:29:29
If the weight is that big an issue for you guys..  just open it up and start filing away.. (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_053_XD.gif)

Drill some holes in it even.. (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/1/12/Stab.gif/revision/latest?cb=20101010151130)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Wed, 03 February 2016, 10:06:19
so... i finally got a g502 since it's the "spiritual successor" to g9x.

Way too heavy and big even without weights, wrist hurt after gaming. Using it at work for casual use and it seems okay for now but bleh.

I'd get a spawn but it only goes up to 3500 dpi

dunno what to get, considering g303 but it looks like it has a weird shape too...

Shame you didn't ask here about it first since I would have told you the G502 is not a replacement for the G9x at all (only in terms of being their most high end wired gaming mouse).  G303 does indeed have a weird shape, some people are fine with it, some don't like it but eventually tolerate it and others simply never like it at all (and even experience cramping).  Spawn I personally don't care for a ton because of the ridges on the right, but if you don't mind that (or even like it) then it could be good.  I'd probably say check out the Xornet II instead though since the Spawn has meh firmware (pretty much all of the versions have pros/cons).

Sadly, there really just isn't a good replacement for the G9 (my favorite shape and I've tried numerous mice).  I keep hoping logitech will bring it back with the 3366 sensor but it was probably too niche for them to consider.  These days I use the Zowie ZA13, it's not a super similar shape but it's fairly short, the front is low and the back contacts my palm in a similar way as the G9 so I like it well enough. 

Forgot to mention I use the g9x without the shell as well. probably one of the best mice for finger grip...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Leiska on Fri, 05 February 2016, 07:51:42
http://store.madcatz.com/platforms/pc/Mad-Catz-R-A-T-PRO-X-Ultimate-Gaming-Mouse-for-PC.html


So how is this holding up?

I thought that the firmware made a huge difference in the performance of the mice so how are they handling a mouse that can use 3 different sensors?

Curious to see how it plays out. Wasn't impressed with the input lag of the rat 7 so I doubt that this will be any better.
I'm more interested in the PRO S, mainly because it's not priced to high heavens but I'm also not particularly interested in the additional features of the X.

So far I've been using the RAT 7 and the sensor quite literally kills me in games as it tends to randomly stop tracking one or both axises whenever it feels like it. That is a bummer especially because I absolutely love the way I managed to make the thing fit my hand. The PRO S comes with a PWM 3310 sensor, which should not have the issues I experience with the 7, but I wonder if it would make more sense to just get something like a G502 with the newer 3366 sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: r1pp3r on Wed, 10 February 2016, 23:44:03
what a good article  :thumb:
im in dilemma right now for searching which budget mouse are good for fingertip grip for budget around logitech G402
mainly gonna use it for fps gaming like csgo
currently im using logitech g700 but this mouse make my wrist hurt for long gaming session and it's damn heavy for fingertip grip purpose  :(
does g100s suitable for fingertip grip?
hope someone can help me and sorry for my bad english
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 11 February 2016, 00:12:27
^ I finger grip too and bought g502.  too heavy and big. I have a g303 coming to try!

g9x is the best feel but discontinued and flawed sensor :/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Eugene45 on Thu, 11 February 2016, 03:13:29
Have someone already see this switch ?

(http://i46.tinypic.com/348n8jo.jpg)

And know his spec or an alternative for it ?

Its from the extra button from the Optical Trackball

Well i will edit but it seems that

http://fr.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-lot-original-KAILH-square-silent-mouse-micro-switch-mouse-button-can-replace-a-rectangle-micro/32448003409.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_3,searchweb201644_1_505_506_503_504_502_10001_10002_10016_10005_10006_10003_10004,searchweb201560_2,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6448&btsid=ac225d20-bd54-4119-80d9-6f301c2b3f14

Are similar
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: FreeCopy on Thu, 11 February 2016, 04:17:52
Just ordered a Ducky Secret. Should be here this weekend. I'll be moving from a Corsair M65 and really hope this does better for me.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: r1pp3r on Thu, 11 February 2016, 10:14:06
^ I finger grip too and bought g502.  too heavy and big. I have a g303 coming to try!

g9x is the best feel but discontinued and flawed sensor :/

i thought we can change the weight of g502 hmm
and what is your palm size from wrist to middle top finger?
mine is 19cm can considered it as a medium hand size so i have to find short-ish mouse to make it comfortable to hold for fingertip grip
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: LXXXIX on Thu, 11 February 2016, 10:20:26
^ I finger grip too and bought g502.  too heavy and big. I have a g303 coming to try!

g9x is the best feel but discontinued and flawed sensor :/

I have a G303 I'm using right now. I like it, but damn do I hate braided USBs it is heavy and not very "loose." It makes the mouse feel heavier since there is so much resistance. I like the way it clicks and the mouse-wheel is awesome!

Tell me what you think when you get yours.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 11 February 2016, 10:23:53
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: CeeSA on Mon, 15 February 2016, 05:09:37
@LXXXIX
exchange your cable:https://youtu.be/Nu5cOsWbKGY (https://youtu.be/Nu5cOsWbKGY)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: logomachy on Mon, 15 February 2016, 05:19:01
I have a paracorded lights-offed g303. Best mouse atm.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Mon, 15 February 2016, 05:20:21
This input latency graph sums up nicely why Zowie is too new to the field, and don't really know what they're doing.

Show Image
(http://cdn.overclock.net/c/cd/cd43a575_button_latency_testing_overall_141207.png)


How do you even get negative input latency?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: logomachy on Mon, 15 February 2016, 05:33:37
This input latency graph sums up nicely why Zowie is too new to the field, and don't really know what they're doing.

Show Image
(http://cdn.overclock.net/c/cd/cd43a575_button_latency_testing_overall_141207.png)


How do you even get negative input latency?
Relative to g300.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 15 February 2016, 23:23:12
Just busted out my WMO 1.1

Does 1000hz on modern usb ports no problem..

I can't believe we had this technology in 2001..



Clearly, Bill Gates traveled to the future and stole technology...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: logomachy on Tue, 16 February 2016, 00:06:09
Just busted out my WMO 1.1

Does 1000hz on modern usb ports no problem..

I can't believe we had this technology in 2001..



Clearly, Bill Gates traveled to the future and stole technology...
Supposedly WMO can run at 8k hz.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 February 2016, 00:19:24
Just busted out my WMO 1.1

Does 1000hz on modern usb ports no problem..

I can't believe we had this technology in 2001..



Clearly, Bill Gates traveled to the future and stole technology...
Supposedly WMO can run at 8k hz.

Over usb??
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: logomachy on Tue, 16 February 2016, 00:27:21
Over usb??
Over usb 3
http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb-mouse-hard-overclocking-2000-hz
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 16 February 2016, 09:38:31
Over usb??
Over usb 3
http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb-mouse-hard-overclocking-2000-hz

OMG wha.......(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/embarrassed1-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862502)

Does this work with other mice.. such as G400..   Will that conflict with the logitech gaming software ?

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 16 February 2016, 10:05:24
Over usb 3
http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb-mouse-hard-overclocking-2000-hz

well, you don't actually need to use a 3.0 port:
Quote
see op... you need xhci which afaik implies a mobo with usb3.0

but you don't need to plug into a 3.0 port

(http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb-mouse-hard-overclocking-2000-hz/90#post_24890347)

Will that conflict with the logitech gaming software ?

i doubt it, but i asked on overclock.net and will let you know if it gets answered :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Wed, 17 February 2016, 00:23:36
What is the benefit of OC'ing the polling rate to such a degree? At a certain point things like your monitor become the bottleneck, surely.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 17 February 2016, 07:10:26
What is the benefit of OC'ing the polling rate to such a degree? At a certain point things like your monitor become the bottleneck, surely.


Eliminating as much latency as possible in one area can make a difference overall.

When I had a slightly slower mouse (The RAT7) it was all too noticeable with the 5ms screen that I was using, even if the 167hz polling rate should have usually been sufficient to not be noticeable.

But I kind of agree that 8mhz over 1mhz is a bit stupid and the difference probably not even being visible for any system, but YMMV.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Wed, 17 February 2016, 20:38:35
the polling rate thing is probably more like of experiment, at this point.
and if it works without negative side-effects, i don't see why not.
i suspect, though, that it's nowhere near as stable as something like 500hz or 1000hz.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 18 February 2016, 06:40:56
So... replacement mousefeet for the WMO cost more than another WMO.. hahahahahahaha

I'm depressed now.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/depressed2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862499)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 18 February 2016, 09:43:01
So... replacement mousefeet for the WMO cost more than another WMO.. hahahahahahaha

I'm depressed now..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/depressed2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862499)


yeah, prices for pre-made mouse feet are ridiculous.

today i received a few sheets of teflon ptfe with which i'll be able to create my own feet.
it's like 100 times cheaper than ordering pre-made feet..
if you wouldn't mind taking the time to cut/shape your own feet, i recommend you do the same.

when i have time later today i'll be making my first pair. i think i'll just use a stanley knife to cut the shapes out and then use sandpaper for detailing. i have thin aslan double-sided tape that i will use to stick the material onto the mice.
would be awesome if i can find a way to make small holes in the feet, so that i can reach the screws without having to take the feet off :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 18 February 2016, 12:56:31
So... replacement mousefeet for the WMO cost more than another WMO.. hahahahahahaha

I'm depressed now..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/depressed2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862499)


yeah, prices for pre-made mouse feet are ridiculous.

today i received a few sheets of teflon ptfe with which i'll be able to create my own feet.
it's like 100 times cheaper than ordering pre-made feet..
if you wouldn't mind taking the time to cut/shape your own feet, i recommend you do the same.

when i have time later today i'll be making my first pair. i think i'll just use a stanley knife to cut the shapes out and then use sandpaper for detailing. i have thin aslan double-sided tape that i will use to stick the material onto the mice.
would be awesome if i can find a way to make small holes in the feet, so that i can reach the screws without having to take the feet off :-)


Oh ho...  Hrrmm.. I no think about that before..   Hrrrm... now..  how do you know the teflon you get though is the kind that's suitable for mousefeet..

I see all this complicated description on the brand-name mouse feet,  silver-infused ? hahahaha.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/ahaaah-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862489)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 18 February 2016, 18:05:03
So... replacement mousefeet for the WMO cost more than another WMO.. hahahahahahaha

I'm depressed now..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/depressed2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862499)


yeah, prices for pre-made mouse feet are ridiculous.

today i received a few sheets of teflon ptfe with which i'll be able to create my own feet.
it's like 100 times cheaper than ordering pre-made feet..
if you wouldn't mind taking the time to cut/shape your own feet, i recommend you do the same.

when i have time later today i'll be making my first pair. i think i'll just use a stanley knife to cut the shapes out and then use sandpaper for detailing. i have thin aslan double-sided tape that i will use to stick the material onto the mice.
would be awesome if i can find a way to make small holes in the feet, so that i can reach the screws without having to take the feet off :-)
More companies ought to do what Ducky has done with their "Secret Mouse" and put the screws in accessible locations so that there is no need to remove the feet or punch through a label to access the screws.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 18 February 2016, 18:58:10
More companies ought to do what Ducky has done with their "Secret Mouse" and put the screws in accessible locations so that there is no need to remove the feet or punch through a label to access the screws.

i absolutely agree. although it's easier for a company to hide screws under labels so that it always immediately shows that it's been opened, and thus that the warranty has been voided. ("you opened it so it's not our concern what's wrong with your mouse")
i wonder what it takes to void ducky secret's warranty..?

and i still prefer screws being under feet, as opposed to under labels. mainly because feet can be replaced, but the label will be scarred forever :-(
so.. here's my first attempt at my own feet:
(http://i.imgur.com/cLh8qZb.jpg)

it could've been done a lot better, but i'll go with it ;D

Oh ho...  Hrrmm.. I no think about that before..   Hrrrm... now..  how do you know the teflon you get though is the kind that's suitable for mousefeet..

I see all this complicated description on the brand-name mouse feet,  silver-infused ? hahahaha..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/ahaaah-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862489)


yeah, i understand what you mean. i just rolled the dice and got a few sheets..
don't forget that every brand seems to ship their mice with different feet. the same goes for aftermarket feet. if you ask me, it doesn't have to be the exact same material as one of the companies use. as long as it glides the way you like it, right?

anyway, i'm not sure if what i have is the exact same stuff as Hyperglide material, but at least it is very similar. i suspect it is the same material, but it looks they have treated it so that it's more smooth, probably a very fine sanding or maybe even a mild chemical treatment.
i won't be able to tell how my my new feet compare until they're broken in a bit. the hardest part for me was trying to smooth out the feet.. i sanded them down a little bit but i guess the paper i used was a bit too rough :-)

but yeah, these feet cost me only a few cents and a little bit of work. beats paying extreme prices for factory-cut feet, in my opinion.

edit: i still have no clue what the weird C-shaped thing near the sensor on the G100s does, so i decided to remove it and not apply a new piece.
it's an experiment, i suppose. originally i was going to leave it, but i'm just curious to see if anything about the tracking feels different.
can't say i'm noticing a difference without the thing there, though..
such a mystery! ;D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: davkol on Fri, 19 February 2016, 06:50:51
More companies ought to do what Ducky has done with their "Secret Mouse" and put the screws in accessible locations so that there is no need to remove the feet or punch through a label to access the screws.

i absolutely agree. although it's easier for a company to hide screws under labels so that it always immediately shows that it's been opened, and thus that the warranty has been voided. ("you opened it so it's not our concern what's wrong with your mouse")
EU legislation dictates that a warranty cannot depend on a sticker or seal.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 19 February 2016, 08:54:14
Do y0u think these guys are using really thin traces on purpose on the pcb to prevent people from resoldering/ repairing a switch..

Cuz it's very easy to burn thin traces..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 20 February 2016, 04:49:02


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/cLh8qZb.jpg)


it could've been done a lot better, but i'll go with it ;D

Oh ho...  Hrrmm.. I no think about that before..   Hrrrm... now..  how do you know the teflon you get though is the kind that's suitable for mousefeet..

I see all this complicated description on the brand-name mouse feet,  silver-infused ? hahahaha..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/ahaaah-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862489)


yeah, i understand what you mean. i just rolled the dice and got a few sheets..
don't forget that every brand seems to ship their mice with different feet. the same goes for aftermarket feet. if you ask me, it doesn't have to be the exact same material as one of the companies use. as long as it glides the way you like it, right?

anyway, i'm not sure if what i have is the exact same stuff as Hyperglide material, but at least it is very similar. i suspect it is the same material, but it looks they have treated it so that it's more smooth, probably a very fine sanding or maybe even a mild chemical treatment.
i won't be able to tell how my my new feet compare until they're broken in a bit. the hardest part for me was trying to smooth out the feet.. i sanded them down a little bit but i guess the paper i used was a bit too rough :-)

but yeah, these feet cost me only a few cents and a little bit of work. beats paying extreme prices for factory-cut feet, in my opinion.

edit: i still have no clue what the weird C-shaped thing near the sensor on the G100s does, so i decided to remove it and not apply a new piece.
it's an experiment, i suppose. originally i was going to leave it, but i'm just curious to see if anything about the tracking feels different.
can't say i'm noticing a difference without the thing there, though..
such a mystery! ;D

I just ordered them 1mm sheets .. it's only $15 for 500x500mm  , ships from China, this is gonna take a while.. hahahaha

This will probably last a lifetime though, if you think about it....

Did you try the 2mm sheets.. I'd think they'd be too thick for most mice prolly..


What do you mean sand down..   I think my plan wouldn't be to use sand paper,  I'd just take some printer paper and rub really hard at the edges I cut..   


Also.. maybe try burning the edges.. HAHAHAHA.. (heat treatment? use a heat-gun/blowdryer)


Lastly, I believe the C-ring is to reduce image wobble around the sensor.. because when you move the mouse, you're not actually moving it perfectly flat, you're actually using it in a tilting motion..  so the c-ring would keep the surface more flush and flat against the sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 20 February 2016, 14:25:51
I just ordered them 1mm sheets .. it's only $15 for 500x500mm  , ships from China, this is gonna take a while.. hahahaha

This will probably last a lifetime though, if you think about it....

Did you try the 2mm sheets.. I'd think they'd be too thick for most mice prolly..


What do you mean sand down..   I think my plan wouldn't be to use sand paper,  I'd just take some printer paper and rub really hard at the edges I cut..   


Also.. maybe try burning the edges.. HAHAHAHA.. (heat treatment? use a heat-gun/blowdryer)


Lastly, I believe the C-ring is to reduce image wobble around the sensor.. because when you move the mouse, you're not actually moving it perfectly flat, you're actually using it in a tilting motion..  so the c-ring would keep the surface more flush and flat against the sensor.

nice :-)
i've used 1mm on my G100s and it's working great so far. i just wasn't able to get the feet very smooth/polished, so hopefully i can find a way to smooth them out a bit better. (heat doesn't even sound that bad!)
if you find a method that works well, let me know :-P
and it depends on the sensor/mouse how thick you want the feet. some mice have a very low LOD, and in those cases even 1mm might be too thick. but of course if that's the case, you can just sand them down a bit - the material is very soft so it's not hard to do at all :-) but i've just ordered 0.5mm sheets for sensors that have a very low LOD. it was cheap, anyway :-)
and yes, 500mmx500mm is a lot of feet :-P

you're probably right about what that C does. the difference is probably just too small for me to notice :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 20 February 2016, 16:54:48
I just ordered them 1mm sheets .. it's only $15 for 500x500mm  , ships from China, this is gonna take a while.. hahahaha

This will probably last a lifetime though, if you think about it....

Did you try the 2mm sheets.. I'd think they'd be too thick for most mice prolly..


What do you mean sand down..   I think my plan wouldn't be to use sand paper,  I'd just take some printer paper and rub really hard at the edges I cut..   


Also.. maybe try burning the edges.. HAHAHAHA.. (heat treatment? use a heat-gun/blowdryer)


Lastly, I believe the C-ring is to reduce image wobble around the sensor.. because when you move the mouse, you're not actually moving it perfectly flat, you're actually using it in a tilting motion..  so the c-ring would keep the surface more flush and flat against the sensor.

nice :-)
i've used 1mm on my G100s and it's working great so far. i just wasn't able to get the feet very smooth/polished, so hopefully i can find a way to smooth them out a bit better. (heat doesn't even sound that bad!)
if you find a method that works well, let me know :-P
and it depends on the sensor/mouse how thick you want the feet. some mice have a very low LOD, and in those cases even 1mm might be too thick. but of course if that's the case, you can just sand them down a bit - the material is very soft so it's not hard to do at all :-) but i've just ordered 0.5mm sheets for sensors that have a very low LOD. it was cheap, anyway :-)
and yes, 500mmx500mm is a lot of feet :-P

you're probably right about what that C does. the difference is probably just too small for me to notice :-)

when you say --smooth--, do you mean the cut edges or face..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 20 February 2016, 18:51:59
when you say --smooth--, do you mean the cut edges or face..

well, both. as one.
quick image to show what i mean:
(http://i.imgur.com/zBOOBXR.png)

left is hyperglide-  it's totally smoothed out, there are no edges or imperfections.
right gives you an idea how mine turned out - it's inconsistent and nowhere as smooth.
i couldn't think of a good way to get it nicely round and smooth. i did do a little bit of sanding to make all the edges a bit less sharp, but it's far from perfect :-) it's hard to work with such small shapes - hard to get perfect.

so, with mine you can feel the extra friction from the bad rounding-out job. it's not bad, but having them smoother would be nice :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 20 February 2016, 19:26:44
when you say --smooth--, do you mean the cut edges or face..

well, both. as one.
quick image to show what i mean:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/zBOOBXR.png)


left is hyperglide-  it's totally smoothed out, there are no edges or imperfections.
right gives you an idea how mine turned out - it's inconsistent and nowhere as smooth.
i couldn't think of a good way to get it nicely round and smooth. i did do a little bit of sanding to make all the edges a bit less sharp, but it's far from perfect :-) it's hard to work with such small shapes - hard to get perfect.

so, with mine you can feel the extra friction from the bad rounding-out job. it's not bad, but having them smoother would be nice :-)


Do you have a blow dryer ?

maybe cut a small square piece  and see if heat makes it smoother..  it says 327 C is melting point.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Johan on Sun, 21 February 2016, 12:10:34
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!

Do you have it yet? Do you like it? :O
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 21 February 2016, 20:21:57
The g502 is ~ 120grams with no additional weights   something like a deathadder is 100grams

You guys need to start lifting if you think G502 is too heavy.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 22 February 2016, 08:28:35
I don't feel like getting into the full argument, but we're not doing bicep curls with the mice so pointing out they're not 50kg isn't really relevant; it's an entirely different use of muscles.  If you're a low sensitivity gamer, you can absolutely get fatigued earlier with a 120g mouse than something that's like 90-100g and the difference in weight will affect your movements anyway (how easy/quick it is to start/stop and such).  That 20g you think is minuscule can actually a really big difference depending on how and how long you play (especially when you factor in shape/size making mice feel lighter/heavier than they actually are as well).  Of course, most people play at a really high sensitivity and don't move their wrist more than a cm or two, which largely negates the effect of weight.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 22 February 2016, 09:46:58
I don't feel like getting into the full argument, but we're not doing bicep curls with the mice so pointing out they're not 50kg isn't really relevant; it's an entirely different use of muscles.  If you're a low sensitivity gamer, you can absolutely get fatigued earlier with a 120g mouse than something that's like 90-100g and the difference in weight will affect your movements anyway (how easy/quick it is to start/stop and such).  That 20g you think is minuscule can actually a really big difference depending on how and how long you play (especially when you factor in shape/size making mice feel lighter/heavier than they actually are as well).  Of course, most people play at a really high sensitivity and don't move their wrist more than a cm or two, which largely negates the effect of weight.


I'm not arguing that it isn't Possible to get fatigued "sooner"

I'm arguing that 20g is hardly a weight-increase where the gamer can't adapt to..

-- It is absolutely preposterous to say --  the mouse must be 100g and 120g will destroy your k/d R.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/embarrassed3-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862502)



Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 22 February 2016, 18:51:18
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!

Do you have it yet? Do you like it? :O

haven't used it yet lol :P soonTM...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: CeeSA on Tue, 23 February 2016, 08:52:20
@tp4tissue 
lifting? we doing highest precision "work" with a mouse. More than 20% (G502 121gr) weight compared to a 100gr is a hugh difference.
I like 80gr mice, so the diffenrence is even greater.

Thinking about lifting: if you are able to bench press 100KG, 120KG is also a hugh difference too.

Weight is always a personal preference question. But 20% more of it is nothing I would easily adapt to it.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Tue, 23 February 2016, 10:15:20
-- It is absolutely preposterous to say --  the mouse must be 100g and 120g will destroy your k/d R..

Then I suppose it's a good thing nobody argued that strawman. 
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Tue, 23 February 2016, 11:59:20
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!

Do you have it yet? Do you like it? :O

haven't used it yet lol :P soonTM...

k finally took it out of the box. I like it so far, it took a few seconds to get used to the weird ass shape since the slope is more exaggerated and there isn't a higher place for my thumb to rest but i'm liking it so far, very light and good for finger grip. much better replacement for shell-less g9x
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 23 February 2016, 13:56:28
@tp4tissue 
lifting? we doing highest precision "work" with a mouse. More than 20% (G502 121gr) weight compared to a 100gr is a hugh difference.
I like 80gr mice, so the diffenrence is even greater.

Thinking about lifting: if you are able to bench press 100KG, 120KG is also a hugh difference too.

Weight is always a personal preference question. But 20% more of it is nothing I would easily adapt to it.

Oh come on..  u can't compare the possibility of adapting to 20 grams vs 20kg..........  and gaming is actually very LOW precision work.. the way they market mice has convinced people of how "1337" they gotta be to game..  but in reality, The mouse input concept is one of very little precision requirement.

(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/embarrassed2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862502)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Johan on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:36:15
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!

Do you have it yet? Do you like it? :O

haven't used it yet lol :P soonTM...

k finally took it out of the box. I like it so far, it took a few seconds to get used to the weird ass shape since the slope is more exaggerated and there isn't a higher place for my thumb to rest but i'm liking it so far, very light and good for finger grip. much better replacement for shell-less g9x

A worthy replacement?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 23 February 2016, 17:02:48
has any one done the omron WMO mod.. ??  how is that.. is the travel distance problematic?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Sifo on Tue, 23 February 2016, 21:34:03
Mines like 17 cm roughly lol. You can adjust weight but even with 0 weights in the g502 it's too heavy and fatigues my wrist after like 20 minutes of gaming. I took off the weight panel just to strip it down to be even lighter and it seems okay now... but I keep it at work for casual use.

I should have 303 on Monday!

Do you have it yet? Do you like it? :O

haven't used it yet lol :P soonTM...

k finally took it out of the box. I like it so far, it took a few seconds to get used to the weird ass shape since the slope is more exaggerated and there isn't a higher place for my thumb to rest but i'm liking it so far, very light and good for finger grip. much better replacement for shell-less g9x

A worthy replacement?

eh maybe. will have to use it a little bit more to say
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: missalaire on Tue, 23 February 2016, 22:01:37
Just got a new Ducky Secret RGB mouse and it is fantastic. I'm liking it much more than the G502 I was using previously.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: CeeSA on Wed, 24 February 2016, 02:48:09
@tp4tissue
as expected no argument from your side.

You brought up lifting, so I catch it up to show you how useless your comment was. Gaming at PC has nothing to do with muscle power.

And a_ak57 is totally right, nobody talks about k/d r since you bring that in the talk.

@Omron WMO
yes, imo it's a good thing, no problems with anything
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 24 February 2016, 03:50:08
@tp4tissue
as expected no argument from your side.

You brought up lifting, so I catch it up to show you how useless your comment was. Gaming at PC has nothing to do with muscle power.

And a_ak57 is totally right, nobody talks about k/d r since you bring that in the talk.

@Omron WMO
yes, imo it's a good thing, no problems with anything

 Lifting makes a huge difference..

Very generally

The more muscles prowess you have, the less likely it is that moving a small weight around will cause fatigue.

You can sustain optimal performance longer given the computer mouse, ONCE you've trained to work with a larger weight, dumbells..


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Eugene45 on Wed, 24 February 2016, 13:18:02
Hello, someone one time linked a Cherry mouse switch something similar in size / form than a D2FC-F-7N20.
The thing that was clicked on was brown, and the switch was 120g in activation.
But i did not bookmark the link and lost it  :(.
Any chance someone know it ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 09 March 2016, 09:27:45
Does the ducky secret have a perfect sensor?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: a_ak57 on Wed, 09 March 2016, 09:36:43
It has the 3310, which is "perfect" enough for most but technically not the best sensor available (3366/3360).
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Wed, 09 March 2016, 09:56:56
It has the 3310, which is "perfect" enough for most but technically not the best sensor available (3366/3360).

What's the difference?
If I'm running standard DPI options that is (I don't really need the extra software for the G502)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 09 March 2016, 10:16:40
It has the 3310, which is "perfect" enough for most but technically not the best sensor available (3366/3360).

What's the difference?
If I'm running standard DPI options that is (I don't really need the extra software for the G502)


who's saying 3366/3360  is better ?

Logitech goes to extra step to tune and customize the behavior and performance of the sensor they use in their product.

They're a big company and can afford to do that..    Other companies like bitfenix, just click buy and stamp out mice with generic tunings and are woefully unrefined.


Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Mon, 14 March 2016, 21:22:06
http://www.ncix.com/detail/fnatic-gear-flick-optical-gaming-59-124551-2061.htm

Func (under the branding of Fnatic) is making a mouse with the 3310 as well.

I wonder how these mice perform.

The Ducky secret should be arriving soon.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Mon, 14 March 2016, 21:42:46
http://www.ncix.com/detail/fnatic-gear-flick-optical-gaming-59-124551-2061.htm

Func (under the branding of Fnatic) is making a mouse with the 3310 as well.

I wonder how these mice perform.

The Ducky secret should be arriving soon.

Stumbled upon this impression (http://www.overclock.net/t/1580789/fnatic-gear-flickg1/120_20#post_24835928) over on Overclock.net while browsing on Google Images. Looks like a QC issue, since others have mentioned it's performing decently. I should read up on it.

Quote
Incredible disappointment. I'm new to this forum and I created an account solely for this reply. The mouse doesn't work with the software at all. It doesn't detect it apparently. Without the software it's locked to 125Hz, I think. Here --> http://i.imgur.com/WtqPmT0.png The sensor also seems to randomly stop working ALL THE TIME. Look at this --> http://i.imgur.com/qBpBeFT.png *** is wrong with the mouse! I'm consistent with the DA but when I try, and YES I'm trying, to draw spirals it buggers up somehow. I can't even explain this properly. It just acts so strangely. It also seems to have more smoothing than the DA but that's something I, personally, am not hindered by. Everything else about the mouse seems to be fine for the most part. The mouse feet are VERY noisey and the finish on the bottom of the mouse is very rough and horrible looking. It also has a cheapey-looking "Q.C Pass" sticker over the screw hole. Overall, not impressed AT ALL.

(http://i.imgur.com/qBpBeFT.png)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Mon, 14 March 2016, 22:58:56
http://www.ncix.com/detail/fnatic-gear-flick-optical-gaming-59-124551-2061.htm

Func (under the branding of Fnatic) is making a mouse with the 3310 as well.

I wonder how these mice perform.

The Ducky secret should be arriving soon.

Stumbled upon this impression (http://www.overclock.net/t/1580789/fnatic-gear-flickg1/120_20#post_24835928) over on Overclock.net while browsing on Google Images. Looks like a QC issue, since others have mentioned it's performing decently. I should read up on it.

Quote
Incredible disappointment. I'm new to this forum and I created an account solely for this reply. The mouse doesn't work with the software at all. It doesn't detect it apparently. Without the software it's locked to 125Hz, I think. Here --> http://i.imgur.com/WtqPmT0.png The sensor also seems to randomly stop working ALL THE TIME. Look at this --> http://i.imgur.com/qBpBeFT.png *** is wrong with the mouse! I'm consistent with the DA but when I try, and YES I'm trying, to draw spirals it buggers up somehow. I can't even explain this properly. It just acts so strangely. It also seems to have more smoothing than the DA but that's something I, personally, am not hindered by. Everything else about the mouse seems to be fine for the most part. The mouse feet are VERY noisey and the finish on the bottom of the mouse is very rough and horrible looking. It also has a cheapey-looking "Q.C Pass" sticker over the screw hole. Overall, not impressed AT ALL.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/qBpBeFT.png)


Interesting review of sorts. I wonder how accurate such a test is.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 15 March 2016, 01:31:50
i think you should not use the brush because it's not true 1:1 registration. i think the brush tool was designed to make smooth lines for you..
i was told to use the regular Pencil to get a true image of what movement is actually being registered.

nonetheless, there's an obvious difference between those flick and da results. maybe this was done on a hard pad? (the 3310 does not perform well on hard pad - at least, not as good as it does on cloth.)
125hz is too low for 2016, though. if it's a gamer mouse, ship it out with 500 at least.. 125 is not acceptable anymore, for a gaming mouse that is.

Interesting review of sorts. I wonder how accurate such a test is.

well if he's honestly trying to make spirals, then his results do show there's something not quite 100% there.
you can also see that his "spirals" for the flick seem very blocky, relative to the DA.
i read that the LOD is very high, so my guess is that the reviewer was using a hard pad, which can be an issue for the 3310.

reading through the Flick thread, some people do seem to like the mouse. but apparently there are some issues like jitter, and even pixel walk! and its LOD is extremely high, which is a big downside if you plan to play (FPS) games..

edit: i will certainly be passing on it, it just doesn't seem like a professional product to me. i see many complaints about the software and sensor performance. high LOD that you can not adjust, the need to install software to change polling rate.. i even read that the bottom part is dragging over the mouse mat for some because the mouse feet are not thick enough, lol. apparently the polling rate is not stable either, which is probably why they shipped it with 125hz in the first place. reports of lens rattle. and any mouse with pixel walk.. just stay away from it:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 10:28:14
i think you should not use the brush because it's not true 1:1 registration. i think the brush tool was designed to make smooth lines for you..
i was told to use the regular Pencil to get a true image of what movement is actually being registered.

nonetheless, there's an obvious difference between those flick and da results. maybe this was done on a hard pad? (the 3310 does not perform well on hard pad - at least, not as good as it does on cloth.)
125hz is too low for 2016, though. if it's a gamer mouse, ship it out with 500 at least.. 125 is not acceptable anymore, for a gaming mouse that is.

Interesting review of sorts. I wonder how accurate such a test is.

well if he's honestly trying to make spirals, then his results do show there's something not quite 100% there.
you can also see that his "spirals" for the flick seem very blocky, relative to the DA.
i read that the LOD is very high, so my guess is that the reviewer was using a hard pad, which can be an issue for the 3310.

reading through the Flick thread, some people do seem to like the mouse. but apparently there are some issues like jitter, and even pixel walk! and its LOD is extremely high, which is a big downside if you plan to play (FPS) games..

edit: i will certainly be passing on it, it just doesn't seem like a professional product to me. i see many complaints about the software and sensor performance. high LOD that you can not adjust, the need to install software to change polling rate.. i even read that the bottom part is dragging over the mouse mat for some because the mouse feet are not thick enough, lol. apparently the polling rate is not stable either, which is probably why they shipped it with 125hz in the first place. reports of lens rattle. and any mouse with pixel walk.. just stay away from it:

 I hope they don't make their pro fps players use this lol.
That's pretty sad and I had just finished watching a video from NCIX promotion about how "Fnatic must have made an amazing product because they own pro teams!" (even though that's not logical).

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 15 March 2016, 12:53:47
someone in the thread said that some MOBA pros actually use the Flick mouse, but none of the CS pros apparently.
but i did see some talk about firmware updates, so maybe some issues have been resolved or at least lessened..
it's still a no for me, though :D i have no faith!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 13:26:13
Got the ducky secret and it's pretty neat. The mouse itself is fat.

You can adjust the polling rate, angle snapping and dpi on the mouse itself, there's no software for it.

However the annoying thing is that you can't change the keybindings for the side buttons.

However from just starting to use it, the mouse either doesn't track on my mousepad that well or has skipping because I notice that it doesn't register some movements sporadically.

Unless it's defective, I noticed that when drawing spirals the pointer slowly moves upwards.

I'm pretty certain that the mouse is not moving upwards on the mousepad so that begs the question if maybe there's vertical acceleration but that should even out when spiralling downwards.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 15 March 2016, 13:51:00
However from just starting to use it, the mouse either doesn't track on my mousepad that well or has skipping because I notice that it doesn't register some movements sporadically.

Unless it's defective, I noticed that when drawing spirals the pointer slowly moves upwards.

I'm pretty certain that the mouse is not moving upwards on the mousepad so that begs the question if maybe there's vertical acceleration but that should even out when spiralling downwards.

which mouse pad? the sensor in the ducky secret is known to have issues on some (hard) surfaces. i have a Zowie FK2 with the same sensor, and it performs bad on my aluminium pad and my plastic pads..
try a black cloth mouse mat if you have one, it should give you good results.
(also, i'd suggest using the Pencil in mspaint, since it looks like you're using Brush?)

edit: couldn't find anything about a similar problem (although it's difficult to google for). i only found a thread with a different problem, but since it links to a firmware update i'll paste it nonetheless:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1583936/solved-with-firmware-update-ducky-secret-sensor-issue
the firmware update will probably not help you, but you might want to grab it in case it ever gets taken down.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 15:21:53
However from just starting to use it, the mouse either doesn't track on my mousepad that well or has skipping because I notice that it doesn't register some movements sporadically.

Unless it's defective, I noticed that when drawing spirals the pointer slowly moves upwards.

I'm pretty certain that the mouse is not moving upwards on the mousepad so that begs the question if maybe there's vertical acceleration but that should even out when spiralling downwards.

which mouse pad? the sensor in the ducky secret is known to have issues on some (hard) surfaces. i have a Zowie FK2 with the same sensor, and it performs bad on my aluminium pad and my plastic pads..
try a black cloth mouse mat if you have one, it should give you good results.
(also, i'd suggest using the Pencil in mspaint, since it looks like you're using Brush?)

edit: couldn't find anything about a similar problem (although it's difficult to google for). i only found a thread with a different problem, but since it links to a firmware update i'll paste it nonetheless:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1583936/solved-with-firmware-update-ducky-secret-sensor-issue
the firmware update will probably not help you, but you might want to grab it in case it ever gets taken down.

Thanks I'll grab the firmware and do more tests tonight before installing it to see if it makes a difference. I'll watch to make sure I'm not actually inching the mouse forward a tiny bit every time...
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 15 March 2016, 15:59:32
However from just starting to use it, the mouse either doesn't track on my mousepad that well or has skipping because I notice that it doesn't register some movements sporadically.

Unless it's defective, I noticed that when drawing spirals the pointer slowly moves upwards.

I'm pretty certain that the mouse is not moving upwards on the mousepad so that begs the question if maybe there's vertical acceleration but that should even out when spiralling downwards.

which mouse pad? the sensor in the ducky secret is known to have issues on some (hard) surfaces. i have a Zowie FK2 with the same sensor, and it performs bad on my aluminium pad and my plastic pads..
try a black cloth mouse mat if you have one, it should give you good results.
(also, i'd suggest using the Pencil in mspaint, since it looks like you're using Brush?)

edit: couldn't find anything about a similar problem (although it's difficult to google for). i only found a thread with a different problem, but since it links to a firmware update i'll paste it nonetheless:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1583936/solved-with-firmware-update-ducky-secret-sensor-issue
the firmware update will probably not help you, but you might want to grab it in case it ever gets taken down.

Thanks I'll grab the firmware and do more tests tonight before installing it to see if it makes a difference. I'll watch to make sure I'm not actually inching the mouse forward a tiny bit every time...

if you use Pencil, set Size to 1px to get a 1:1 ratio (1 count = 1 pixel). this will create the most "honest" pattern, that clearly shows what your PC picks up from your mouse.
more importantly, do the test with two (or even more) mice, that way you can see if this behavior only happens with the Secret (or if it's you!) :-)

from what i've read, the Secret is a good mouse. so i think (and hope) that your mouse isn't faulty.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 16:15:45
However from just starting to use it, the mouse either doesn't track on my mousepad that well or has skipping because I notice that it doesn't register some movements sporadically.

Unless it's defective, I noticed that when drawing spirals the pointer slowly moves upwards.

I'm pretty certain that the mouse is not moving upwards on the mousepad so that begs the question if maybe there's vertical acceleration but that should even out when spiralling downwards.

which mouse pad? the sensor in the ducky secret is known to have issues on some (hard) surfaces. i have a Zowie FK2 with the same sensor, and it performs bad on my aluminium pad and my plastic pads..
try a black cloth mouse mat if you have one, it should give you good results.
(also, i'd suggest using the Pencil in mspaint, since it looks like you're using Brush?)

edit: couldn't find anything about a similar problem (although it's difficult to google for). i only found a thread with a different problem, but since it links to a firmware update i'll paste it nonetheless:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1583936/solved-with-firmware-update-ducky-secret-sensor-issue
the firmware update will probably not help you, but you might want to grab it in case it ever gets taken down.

Thanks I'll grab the firmware and do more tests tonight before installing it to see if it makes a difference. I'll watch to make sure I'm not actually inching the mouse forward a tiny bit every time...

if you use Pencil, set Size to 1px to get a 1:1 ratio (1 count = 1 pixel). this will create the most "honest" pattern, that clearly shows what your PC picks up from your mouse.
more importantly, do the test with two (or even more) mice, that way you can see if this behavior only happens with the Secret (or if it's you!) :-)

from what i've read, the Secret is a good mouse. so i think (and hope) that your mouse isn't faulty.
I'll definitely try with the g502 when I get home then because I know that one works perfectly. The only uissue is that for my grip the g502 isn't great and the scroll wheel is acting up... gotta get an rma sigh
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 17:54:07
Just an update I got back home and tried the same test with both my mice but didn't notice the "inching up" issue this time so maybe my hand was slowly inching up when I did the first test (I could have sworn I saw some skipping when using it on my desktop) so for now everything seems good!

I still have a copy of the firmware if ever something weird starts happening I can always try that before rmaing.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: FreeCopy on Tue, 15 March 2016, 18:01:16
Just an update I got back home and tried the same test with both my mice but didn't notice the "inching up" issue this time so maybe my hand was slowly inching up when I did the first test (I could have sworn I saw some skipping when using it on my desktop) so for now everything seems good!

I still have a copy of the firmware if ever something weird starts happening I can always try that before rmaing.

I had the same skipping problem with my secret. Switching from a USB3 to USB2 port seemed to be the fix for me. No idea why that seems to be an issue but I've been using it since mid Feb with no issues.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 15 March 2016, 18:30:08
heh :-)
well, plenty of variables could cause something that would seem off. could be your hardware, your software, maybe something in the firmware of the mouse..
but it's nice that your mouse seems to be working!

i wonder if it's the last PBT-shelled mouse we'll ever see
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 15 March 2016, 18:53:20
Just an update I got back home and tried the same test with both my mice but didn't notice the "inching up" issue this time so maybe my hand was slowly inching up when I did the first test (I could have sworn I saw some skipping when using it on my desktop) so for now everything seems good!

I still have a copy of the firmware if ever something weird starts happening I can always try that before rmaing.

I had the same skipping problem with my secret. Switching from a USB3 to USB2 port seemed to be the fix for me. No idea why that seems to be an issue but I've been using it since mid Feb with no issues.


hmm, interesting you mention that because I switched from a usb3 port to usb2 port (so both the logitech and ducky were using adjacent usb 2.0 ports) and hadn't noticed any issues when testing side by side. Maybe it's the usb 3 that doesn't like the ducky secret.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 17 March 2016, 00:54:50
Got my mousefeet material..

Updated in my sig.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: azhdar on Sun, 20 March 2016, 08:45:00
Sometimes my mouse (RAT-5) will not be able to move horizontal, only vertical, then it comes back , does that mean it's dying?

What are the current go to go mouse for a 100$ budget? need at least 2 side buttons

Zowie mouses sem nice, which one to get tho?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 20 March 2016, 10:47:20
this issue has been reported a lot for mice with a PTE (philips twin eye) sensor.
the PTE sensor unfortunately come with a few issues that are apparently native to it..
i've seen the specific issue you're having being called "axis lock".
there's also the famous Z-axis issue.
and the fact that's it's a laser sensor makes it track a lot better on hard pad, as opposed to cloth.

all you can really do is make sure the sensor and lens are clean (this might be more important than you think), and google what the best surface for the PTE sensor is. the sensor is quite picky.

as for suggesting a mouse.. that's just getting harder by the day. many companies have been pumping out new mice - by now you already have a few dozens of good options if the only criteria is two side-buttons. :-P
all zowie mice have similar internals and i think also use the same buttons and same coating.. so whatever size and shape appeals most to you the most, i guess. :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 20 March 2016, 13:04:15
Sometimes my mouse (RAT-5) will not be able to move horizontal, only vertical, then it comes back , does that mean it's dying?

What are the current go to go mouse for a 100$ budget? need at least 2 side buttons

Zowie mouses sem nice, which one to get tho?

G502...  or, mod an older WMO/IMO 1.1,  many people have these around the house..



I'm still not convinced on the Zowie..  check that latency chart.. 
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 20 March 2016, 17:32:49
Hai guys..

I have a Microsoft Intellimouse (ball mouse),  how come it doesn't work with a passive ps/2 to usb adapter.

On the bottom of the mouse it says , Serial and PS/2 compatible. the cable is native PS/2

It works in my other pc which has ps/2 so I know the mouse isn't broken.

(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/oh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862514)


Ffff......  I'm sorry everyone..   I read Serial and thought USB,  I forgot about SERIAL serial..

(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 20 March 2016, 18:35:24
Dang.. I have a serial port. but I don't have any serial cables.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/whaaat1-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862525)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: DAOWAce on Sat, 02 April 2016, 13:31:54
So, the Sensei's sensor is actually garbage?

What about the old Logitech G3?  That was the mouse I used before switching to the Sensei.

I've had accuracy issues ever since the switch, and arguably I even had them with the G3 from my prior ball mouse.  It's been and endless downhill spiral.

I've gone this route because I need an ambidextrous mouse due to the way I hold it (fingertip claw hybrid).  The Sensei was the closest to the G3 that I found, so I got it.  Little did I know Steelseries' top end mouse was actually a piece of trash (and bigger than expected).  I've gone through 3 of them now and I'm looking into replacing it finally.

I can't stand change so I was hoping to find something identical (ambidextrous, dual small side buttons on BOTH sides, one button for DPI switch on top, small profile).  I see Steelseries made the Rival series of mice.. but they lack right side buttons, and the R700 has too much fluff on it, so they're all out of the question.

The new Logitech mouse (G900) with that "golden" 3366 sensor seems to be quite similar (if you can add the right buttons).. but the physical design of it is just atrocious, and it's $150.

Why do companies stop producing good mice?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 02 April 2016, 14:00:39
So, the Sensei's sensor is actually garbage?

What about the old Logitech G3?  That was the mouse I used before switching to the Sensei.

I've had accuracy issues ever since the switch, and arguably I even had them with the G3 from my prior ball mouse.  It's been and endless downhill spiral.

I've gone this route because I need an ambidextrous mouse due to the way I hold it (fingertip claw hybrid).  The Sensei was the closest to the G3 that I found, so I got it.  Little did I know Steelseries' top end mouse was actually a piece of trash (and bigger than expected).  I've gone through 3 of them now and I'm looking into replacing it finally.

I can't stand change so I was hoping to find something identical (ambidextrous, dual small side buttons on BOTH sides, one button for DPI switch on top, small profile).  I see Steelseries made the Rival series of mice.. but they lack right side buttons, and the R700 has too much fluff on it, so they're all out of the question.

The new Logitech mouse (G900) with that "golden" 3366 sensor seems to be quite similar (if you can add the right buttons).. but the physical design of it is just atrocious, and it's $150.

Why do companies stop producing good mice?

You need G303..

But I'm not up to date on the mouse wiggle problem..

IMHO, it's probably an easy fix , but people don't want to open the mouse with a fresh warranty
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: DAOWAce on Sat, 02 April 2016, 15:01:53
You need G303..
Lacks right side buttons, which I use as page up/down, both in games and in windows (especially in windows; damn essential).

If I didn't need them, I'd have Steelseries swap me to a Rival with my RMA, seeing as they have better sensors.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: stingrae on Sun, 03 April 2016, 03:16:28
You need G303..
Lacks right side buttons, which I use as page up/down, both in games and in windows (especially in windows; damn essential).

If I didn't need them, I'd have Steelseries swap me to a Rival with my RMA, seeing as they have better sensors.

Oo I've never found page up or page down essential. Usually I find I'm pressing home and end...

Honestly as long as a mouse has mb4 and mb5 i'm content. Though I used a razer abyssus for a pretty long time so I know it's manageable.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 03 April 2016, 13:24:44
Enlighten me. What do you guys think. 3310 or 3366? What is heaven on earth with a cable attached to it? What makes my cursor move so smoothly that it makes me cry that I want to have babies with my mouse?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 03 April 2016, 14:26:05
What is heaven on earth with a cable attached to it? What makes my cursor move so smoothly that it makes me cry that I want to have babies with my mouse?

only the 3360/3366 is that sharp. but the there are a lot more mice available with the 3310..
it's likely that there's a 3310-mouse that has a good shape for you, but if you want the 3360 then you will have to be lucky that any of them are a good fit.
well.. there actually are other(older) sensors that are quite good as well, but all of them have issues or otherwise shortcomings. things like very limited cpi-steps (sometimes even fewer non-interpolated steps), angle snapping, jitter, low perfect tracking speed, etc.

anyway:
the 3310 has higher motion delay and higher "variance". meaning the 3366 is basically more accurate, and faster to respond.
the 3366 has higher perfect tracking speed (though the 3310 is already high enough for 99% of the gamers).
the 3366 is capable of almost twice the fps (12000 vs the 6400 of the 3310) potentially making it a lot more smooth, but this probably isn't really something you'd notice. :-)

in the end, the 3366 is really just a straight upgrade to the 3310, but right now you have very few options if you want that sensor.
the 3310 is still a good (enough) sensor, though. personally however i wouldn't buy a 3310 mouse, simply because i know that there's something better out there. :-) but that's just me
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 03 April 2016, 17:20:19
Does anyone know the  mx518's native dpi..

I have both the v1 and a v2
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 04 April 2016, 05:22:17
Mx518: 400 and 1600
Mx518 (1800cpi): 800 and 1800
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 04 April 2016, 12:49:44
Mx518: 400 and 1600
Mx518 (1800cpi): 800 and 1800

thx..

I wonder if the latter could be flashed to a g400
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 05 April 2016, 13:24:03
Ugh the ducky mouse is having sensor issues. Every now and again the mouse will just "jump" either up or down.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 05 April 2016, 13:30:17
Ugh the ducky mouse is having sensor issues. Every now and again the mouse will just "jump" either up or down.

didn't someone say there was a firmware update.

also,  Did you do the surface tuning ? I read it also haz the surface tuning..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Tue, 05 April 2016, 14:07:35
This is a fantastic write up! I was a little confused as to why my Avago 9800 'jitters' when I raise the cpi past 6,000. High cpi is great for my wrist but bad for my tracking :-[
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 05 April 2016, 14:47:07
This is a fantastic write up! I was a little confused as to why my Avago 9800 'jitters' when I raise the cpi past 6,000. High cpi is great for my wrist but bad for my tracking :-[

mice with Philips Twin-Eye sensors stay very sharp in their tracking at high cpi. they do have other shortcoming/issues, however.
but if you really love that high cpi stuff then you could look up some PTE mice to see if any of them seem interesting to you.
under "Doppler Shift" you'll find a bunch of mouse that use(d) this kind of sensor: http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
PLN2030 being the oldest version and PLN2034 being the newest
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Tue, 05 April 2016, 15:05:12
This is a fantastic write up! I was a little confused as to why my Avago 9800 'jitters' when I raise the cpi past 6,000. High cpi is great for my wrist but bad for my tracking :-[

mice with Philips Twin-Eye sensors stay very sharp in their tracking at high cpi. they do have other shortcoming/issues, however.
but if you really love that high cpi stuff then you could look up some PTE mice to see if any of them seem interesting to you.
under "Doppler Shift" you'll find a bunch of mouse that use(d) this kind of sensor: http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/gaming-mouse-sensor-list
PLN2030 being the oldest version and PLN2034 being the newest
Hmmm, looks like the Razor Naga falls in to the PLN2034 category. Thanks for the link! I've considered using an MMO mouse for the extra buttons but now I see there is more to that particular mouse. I'll probably have a collection by the end of this year :))
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 05 April 2016, 15:11:51
afaik you can map each button to whatever you want (including macros), so that should be nice if you could make use of them.
be sure to google about issues, though! PTE sensors can be tricky bastards, and i don't wanna be the guy who pointed you to a regrettable purchase :-P
(the most famous complaint with PTE sensors is the Z-Axis issue.)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Tue, 05 April 2016, 15:17:21
I coast at such a high cpi to prevent me from needing to lift the mouse so I would probably be ok with that. No worries! I enjoy reading about all the different advantages of each sensor/mouse
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Tue, 05 April 2016, 15:23:27
Ugh the ducky mouse is having sensor issues. Every now and again the mouse will just "jump" either up or down.

didn't someone say there was a firmware update.

also,  Did you do the surface tuning ? I read it also haz the surface tuning..

The firmware that was posted is an older firmware. Haven't tried it but the issue is recent...

I did the surface tuning but who knows if the glass coated mousepad is interfering with the sensor. I'm not using the one that booper bought me yet beccause I want a wrist rest for my  mouse haha so I'm still using the one that's really used and the surface is not even in color anymore. I'll try retuning the mouse but I distinctly remember doing that originally.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 07:29:03
How's the G502 Quality control and mouse feet nowadays? And is the G303 rattle still there?

Considering buying either one of them... curious whether issues are fixed.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 09 April 2016, 08:22:20
The firmware that was posted is an older firmware. Haven't tried it but the issue is recent...

I did the surface tuning but who knows if the glass coated mousepad is interfering with the sensor. I'm not using the one that booper bought me yet beccause I want a wrist rest for my  mouse haha so I'm still using the one that's really used and the surface is not even in color anymore. I'll try retuning the mouse but I distinctly remember doing that originally.

do you have any other surfaces? it should work perfectly fine on regular cloth. i suppose there is a chance that the coating is upsetting the sensor.
mine did not work on hard pad at all, they just wouldn't register mouse movement 50% of the time.
but mine had no surface tuning stuff, so i'd recommend trying out different settings to see if that makes a difference.

How's the G502 Quality control and mouse feet nowadays? And is the G303 rattle still there?

Considering buying either one of them... curious whether issues are fixed.

the G303 sensor rattle seems to be hit-or-miss. the G303 thread on overclock has a ton of complaints about it. some people tried out 4+ mice before they had one without the rattling. some just fixed it themselves by taping or even gluing the sensor stuck to the mouse..
roulette!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 09:14:46
The firmware that was posted is an older firmware. Haven't tried it but the issue is recent...

I did the surface tuning but who knows if the glass coated mousepad is interfering with the sensor. I'm not using the one that booper bought me yet beccause I want a wrist rest for my  mouse haha so I'm still using the one that's really used and the surface is not even in color anymore. I'll try retuning the mouse but I distinctly remember doing that originally.

do you have any other surfaces? it should work perfectly fine on regular cloth. i suppose there is a chance that the coating is upsetting the sensor.
mine did not work on hard pad at all, they just wouldn't register mouse movement 50% of the time.
but mine had no surface tuning stuff, so i'd recommend trying out different settings to see if that makes a difference.

How's the G502 Quality control and mouse feet nowadays? And is the G303 rattle still there?

Considering buying either one of them... curious whether issues are fixed.

the G303 sensor rattle seems to be hit-or-miss. the G303 thread on overclock has a ton of complaints about it. some people tried out 4+ mice before they had one without the rattling. some just fixed it themselves by taping or even gluing the sensor stuck to the mouse..
roulette!

Too bad. I'd like the G303 for finger tip grip. Should check out G502 then... weird that Logitech doesn't fix this. Seems they cheapskated on the G303.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 09 April 2016, 09:29:25
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 April 2016, 09:53:57
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 10:04:01
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sat, 09 April 2016, 10:41:01
what double click issue ?

you do not know about this? :-X
or are you just skeptical about me claiming the G502 can have the issue?

it's basically where you click the button only once, but the mouse actually registers 2 clicks.
or when you hold the mouse button, sometimes the mouse actually registers a 'release', so you can't drag-and-drop anymore, or spray in a game like csgo.
if you'd google the (double click) issue you'll see that it's widespread. especially the razer deathadder mice are known to get the issue at some point.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 10:56:55
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

No one is mentioning loose pcbs? I was having some double click issues on my trackman until today. Hotglue :thumb:

The trackman's PCBs wiggles loose over time I guess and causes switch bouncing. The trackman's PCBs are not attached to the mouse body with a screw like the g502. Probably not the issue. Anyway, replacement omrons are cheap. Looks like Logitech likes the Omron D2FC-F-7N switch. I don't have a g502 so I have no idea if it uses that switch or not though

what double click issue ?

you do not know about this? :-X
or are you just skeptical about me claiming the G502 can have the issue?

it's basically where you click the button only once, but the mouse actually registers 2 clicks.
or when you hold the mouse button, sometimes the mouse actually registers a 'release', so you can't drag-and-drop anymore, or spray in a game like csgo.
if you'd google the (double click) issue you'll see that it's widespread. especially the razer deathadder mice are known to get the issue at some point.

This was the exact problem I had with my trackman haha
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: woll3 on Sat, 09 April 2016, 11:00:02
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 11:02:53
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.

Does this mean that the G502 is essentially flawed? Or that you need to tweak / fix it a little after a particular amount of usage?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: woll3 on Sat, 09 April 2016, 11:07:14
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.

Does this mean that the G502 is essentially flawed? Or that you need to tweak / fix it a little after a particular amount of usage?

Not at all, it is actually impressive how long the switches last with those debounce times. And yes from a technical perspective that would be the right thing to do, but previous attempts from Dexin Contractors have only confused the average joe and spammed the support with "I put the delay on the lowest settings and i get doubleclicks, when i put it higher it works fine.", obv. it could have been better explained with tool tips, but i dont think that would have changed anything.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 11:10:18
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.

Does this mean that the G502 is essentially flawed? Or that you need to tweak / fix it a little after a particular amount of usage?

I searched around it and it looks like Razer mice suffer the most from debounce. Maybe this was during the same period of time when they had keyboard switch problems? I had to hunt around for a few minutes before I found a G502 issue. A bad batch perhaps? Who knows
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 11:20:05
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.

Does this mean that the G502 is essentially flawed? Or that you need to tweak / fix it a little after a particular amount of usage?

I searched around it and it looks like Razer mice suffer the most from debounce. Maybe this was during the same period of time when they had keyboard switch problems? I had to hunt around for a few minutes before I found a G502 issue. A bad batch perhaps? Who knows

Hmmm... I want to feel the sensor of the G502 so I'll probably one anyway. 80 euro's is not cheap, but it is not a dealbreaker. I still have my trustworthy Avior 7000's. And my crappy G400s (god I hate that thing). But I will be able to mouse anyho.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: woll3 on Sat, 09 April 2016, 12:15:29
yeah, it's really unfortunate. an otherwise great choice now seems to be a bit of a gamble.

as for the G502, the only complaint i can think of right now is relatively quick double-clicking issues. but this issue is known to happen for most mice, at some point.
fixing it isn't hard though, but requires opening the mouse.
i've never had the issue once myself. maybe because i don't play MOBAs? :]

anyway, the G502 seems like a safe bet to me. albeit a heavy one :-P

what double click issue ?

Some attribute it to the supposedly "extreme low latency" of logitech's mouse buttons, some say it is inherent to the switch used for the mouse buttons.

I'm not entirely sure what it is and how to fix it. Whether this is a "hoax" or whether this is a genuine concern.

All of those, to reduce Button latency you subsequently have to reduce Debounce time, the insides switches of the switches can bend over time which causes more bouncing due to overtravel(easy to see on the DA and EC), they can get dirty, they can oxidize, etc., and therefore the original debounce time doesnt work. A4Tech´s lightstrike switches are circumventing this problem by obv. using a lightstrike, Fühlen has a similar Solution as well, but it cannot be called a microswitch anymore.

Does this mean that the G502 is essentially flawed? Or that you need to tweak / fix it a little after a particular amount of usage?
I searched around it and it looks like Razer mice suffer the most from debounce. Maybe this was during the same period of time when they had keyboard switch problems? I had to hunt around for a few minutes before I found a G502 issue. A bad batch perhaps? Who knows

As mentioned earlier(altough not clearly) it is a mostly a shelldesign/leverage issue, there is more force working onto the switch which is also why people say that the button actuation on it is rather light, the uniform top shell is only making it worse as well, but some people can use it for years depending on their grip.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 13:12:19
I watched a few teardown videos of the g502, that top shell looks a bit thin. I guess I see what you mean
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 13:16:44
I watched a few teardown videos of the g502, that top shell looks a bit thin. I guess I see what you mean

So... what does that have to do with double clicking? Does it matter? Is it crappy quality?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 13:21:00
I watched a few teardown videos of the g502, that top shell looks a bit thin. I guess I see what you mean

So... what does that have to do with double clicking? Does it matter? Is it crappy quality?

I don't have a G502 so I have no idea what build quality is like. I was just commenting on the thickness of the top shell (http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/snail/k4706.gif)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 13:26:01
I watched a few teardown videos of the g502, that top shell looks a bit thin. I guess I see what you mean

So... what does that have to do with double clicking? Does it matter? Is it crappy quality?

I don't have a G502 so I have no idea what build quality is like. I was just commenting on the thickness of the top shell
Show Image
(http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/snail/k4706.gif)


Ah ok. I thought you meant something specifically with the thickness of the top shell.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 April 2016, 14:36:05
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 14:44:44
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 09 April 2016, 14:51:06
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.

I Know righ?

(http://img.emoticonplus.com/NQSB6.gif)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 14:53:19
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.

I Know righ?

Show Image
(http://img.emoticonplus.com/NQSB6.gif)


Especially if you're collecting. Perhaps hoping your kids will pick up where you left. But a G502 will never survive a legacy. WE ARE DOOOOOOMED
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 15:05:57
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.

I Know righ?

Show Image
(http://img.emoticonplus.com/NQSB6.gif)


Especially if you're collecting. Perhaps hoping your kids will pick up where you left. But a G502 will never survive a legacy. WE ARE DOOOOOOMED

Legacy? Kids? Man (or lady idk.. maybe tp knows), some of us wear out equipment faster than others (http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/snail/k4710.gif)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sat, 09 April 2016, 15:09:54
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.

I Know righ?

Show Image
(http://img.emoticonplus.com/NQSB6.gif)


Especially if you're collecting. Perhaps hoping your kids will pick up where you left. But a G502 will never survive a legacy. WE ARE DOOOOOOMED

Legacy? Kids? Man (or lady idk.. maybe tp knows), some of us wear out equipment faster than others
Show Image
(http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/snail/k4710.gif)


We'll see how the G502 will hold out once I get one. I'll put it through my rage test and see how it lasts.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 09 April 2016, 15:15:06
Here's the thing with these mice.. they're not designed to LAST a long time..

for example, even on the Logitechs, 

Plastic gets brittle over time..  and all of these mice just has screws going directly into the plastic..

Most of the time, the screwholes are shattered with age..

sigh.......... this happened to my mx510 in the back..

I had to repair it by drilling two holes on the bottom, and tying the back together to the screw using steel wire..

Honestly, I believe that Mionix shells are of higher quality than logitech shells. But we'll see.. I only have my two avior 7000's for two years now.

It makes sense that quality is lower... they want you to keep coming back for more when it breaks. But it shouldn't be that way.

I Know righ?

Show Image
(http://img.emoticonplus.com/NQSB6.gif)


Especially if you're collecting. Perhaps hoping your kids will pick up where you left. But a G502 will never survive a legacy. WE ARE DOOOOOOMED

Legacy? Kids? Man (or lady idk.. maybe tp knows), some of us wear out equipment faster than others
Show Image
(http://yoursmiles.org/ksmile/snail/k4710.gif)


We'll see how the G502 will hold out once I get one. I'll put it through my rage test and see how it lasts.

I'll melt through mine with my lava hands :))
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 01:14:33
Just ordered a G100s because I wanted to try this mythical 69grams.

I think putting d2f-01f 's in it will prolly push it to 70 though..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 11 April 2016, 01:35:11
Just ordered a G100s because I wanted to try this mythical 69grams.

I think putting d2f-01f 's in it will prolly push it to 70 though..

Dat scroll wheel looks vintage man!

Does that require desoldering and soldering?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: munch on Mon, 11 April 2016, 02:21:08
Just ordered a G100s because I wanted to try this mythical 69grams.

I think putting d2f-01f 's in it will prolly push it to 70 though..

there's a weight in the top shell that you can unscrew too.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 03:04:10
Just ordered a G100s because I wanted to try this mythical 69grams.

I think putting d2f-01f 's in it will prolly push it to 70 though..

there's a weight in the top shell that you can unscrew too.

yea, accounting for that, I believe it's going to be ~ 70g
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 11 April 2016, 08:21:30
i actually put the weight back in..
maybe i didn't give it a fair chance to get used to it, but it was just too light
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 12:45:19
i actually put the weight back in..
maybe i didn't give it a fair chance to get used to it, but it was just too light

U just need more skillz.... (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/embarrassed3-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862502)


nawh, Idk,  i'm excited.. hopefully it'll get there soonish.. 

I just hope it's not a counterfeit..   got it for $11.99 on ebay, but it's new, no box,

Actually no,  I HOPE it's a counterfeit,  then I get to complain about it to Ebay and expose the Evil ebay seller..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 11 April 2016, 12:53:01
G100s has a good sensor yes? Honestly, it looks cheap to me.

If changing the buttons requires soldering, why not put in low profile topre? :D
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 12:57:08
G100s has a good sensor yes? Honestly, it looks cheap to me.

If changing the buttons requires soldering, why not put in low profile topre? :D

(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/uhuhuh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862523)

for $11.99,  it IS cheap..

I looked at the PCB design online.. And from what I can tell, it doesn't look like the board would be torqued in any odd way for the traces to break..  So, my guess is, the problems people talk about switches double clicking and malfunctioning after 6 months, is likely due to the solder joint..

I noticed the recent logitech mice have all gone Lead Free.. so.. that might be the cause of the issue..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 11 April 2016, 13:03:29
G100s has a good sensor yes? Honestly, it looks cheap to me.

If changing the buttons requires soldering, why not put in low profile topre? :D

Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/uhuhuh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862523)


for $11.99,  it IS cheap..

I looked at the PCB design online.. And from what I can tell, it doesn't look like the board would be torqued in any odd way for the traces to break..  So, my guess is, the problems people talk about switches double clicking and malfunctioning after 6 months, is likely due to the solder joint..

I noticed the recent logitech mice have all gone Lead Free.. so.. that might be the cause of the issue..

Good to know... I'm about to buy the G502 (and I want an G303 but those have the side tracking issue) once I've felt it in my hands.

(Cold) solder joint? Like literally where the switch pins are soldered to the PCB?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 14:54:36

Good to know... I'm about to buy the G502 (and I want an G303 but those have the side tracking issue) once I've felt it in my hands.

(Cold) solder joint? Like literally where the switch pins are soldered to the PCB?

Most likely cold joints..

I noticed this when I took apart my G400 as well.. the soldering isn't very good.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 11 April 2016, 15:08:18

Good to know... I'm about to buy the G502 (and I want an G303 but those have the side tracking issue) once I've felt it in my hands.

(Cold) solder joint? Like literally where the switch pins are soldered to the PCB?

Most likely cold joints..

I noticed this when I took apart my G400 as well.. the soldering isn't very good.

Those f**kers. I think these mice are expensive enough to solder properly.

Do you have the g303 yourself?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 15:09:57

Good to know... I'm about to buy the G502 (and I want an G303 but those have the side tracking issue) once I've felt it in my hands.

(Cold) solder joint? Like literally where the switch pins are soldered to the PCB?

Most likely cold joints..

I noticed this when I took apart my G400 as well.. the soldering isn't very good.

Those f**kers. I think these mice are expensive enough to solder properly.

Do you have the g303 yourself?

No I no haz money for G303.. which is why I bought that $11.99 G100s.. (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)

Funny, cuz I spent like $40 buying all these D2F-01F.... hahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 11 April 2016, 15:17:52

Good to know... I'm about to buy the G502 (and I want an G303 but those have the side tracking issue) once I've felt it in my hands.

(Cold) solder joint? Like literally where the switch pins are soldered to the PCB?

Most likely cold joints..

I noticed this when I took apart my G400 as well.. the soldering isn't very good.

Those f**kers. I think these mice are expensive enough to solder properly.

Do you have the g303 yourself?

No I no haz money for G303.. which is why I bought that $11.99 G100s..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)


Funny, cuz I spent like $40 buying all these D2F-01F.... hahahahahahaha

I just bought the Nikon D7200 starter kit with 105-140 lens. I'm literally broke now. That camera better take some damn good pics of mah caps.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 11 April 2016, 19:16:23
Just Ordered some Kester 44 63/37  0.031, excited..   I was gonna get more 0.02,  but If I really think about it.. 0.02 is harder to use because you gotta move the wire really fast to reduce heating time..  whereas the 0.03 is a better balance and you can get things done more quickly..

It's not like 0.02 was any good when i tried it on smd anyway,  something even thinner would be better..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 11 April 2016, 22:32:27
No I no haz money for G303.. which is why I bought that $11.99 G100s..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)


Funny, cuz I spent like $40 buying all these D2F-01F.... hahahahahahaha

G100s has one of the highest price-to-quality ratios imo, as long as you can live without side-buttons (which you probably can since you're used to the WMO).
btw, how many switches did you get for that $40? (ebay?)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 12 April 2016, 01:52:21
No I no haz money for G303.. which is why I bought that $11.99 G100s..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)


Funny, cuz I spent like $40 buying all these D2F-01F.... hahahahahahaha

G100s has one of the highest price-to-quality ratios imo, as long as you can live without side-buttons (which you probably can since you're used to the WMO).
btw, how many switches did you get for that $40? (ebay?)

you get 25 switches for $40 at Mouser.com  (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/pretty-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862516)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 12 April 2016, 05:27:21
No I no haz money for G303.. which is why I bought that $11.99 G100s..
Show Image
(http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sweating-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862522)


Funny, cuz I spent like $40 buying all these D2F-01F.... hahahahahahaha

G100s has one of the highest price-to-quality ratios imo, as long as you can live without side-buttons (which you probably can since you're used to the WMO).
btw, how many switches did you get for that $40? (ebay?)

F**k 'em side buttons. What's their use anyway? Mis-clicking every damm time? I have them on my avior and I only use them to go back/forward in the browser.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 12 April 2016, 11:20:16
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 12 April 2016, 17:27:01
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!

I know what you mean, it's annoying. My thumb is relatively long apparently, so I touch the "sniper"-button I believe it is? on the g502 as well accidentally. Pff
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 13 April 2016, 13:12:17
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!

I know what you mean, it's annoying. My thumb is relatively long apparently, so I touch the "sniper"-button I believe it is? on the g502 as well accidentally. Pff

U mean the "n00b-camper" button. ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Wed, 13 April 2016, 14:44:31
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!

I know what you mean, it's annoying. My thumb is relatively long apparently, so I touch the "sniper"-button I believe it is? on the g502 as well accidentally. Pff

U mean the "n00b-camper" button. ?

That one yeah :P

Went to the store today to feel the g502 in mah hand. It feels smaller than my avior 7000. To be honest, it feels extremely crappy. All plastic works a little bit, squeeks a bit. Really weird. REALLY weird. Mouse button left / right uneven. Scroll wheel feels like it comes off a Trust mouse.

Am I doing the feelingz wrong?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 13 April 2016, 14:55:39
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!

I know what you mean, it's annoying. My thumb is relatively long apparently, so I touch the "sniper"-button I believe it is? on the g502 as well accidentally. Pff

U mean the "n00b-camper" button. ?

That one yeah :P

Went to the store today to feel the g502 in mah hand. It feels smaller than my avior 7000. To be honest, it feels extremely crappy. All plastic works a little bit, squeeks a bit. Really weird. REALLY weird. Mouse button left / right uneven. Scroll wheel feels like it comes off a Trust mouse.

Am I doing the feelingz wrong?

Well, the store version is like the promiscuous-village-girl..  So..... I mean, it's been through alot, seen many hands, many rough hands..

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Wed, 13 April 2016, 15:09:07
yeah a lot of people use M4 for in-game voice-activation, but i only used those buttons for browsing as well.
and now that i'm sometimes using the WMO and G100s, i've gotten used to using ALT+left or right arrow, or just right click -> back/forward. even when i use mice with side-buttons, i just forget about them and use those shortcuts anyway..
side-buttons are almost always in the way of how i grip, i think the G400 is the only exception to this. maybe the IE3 as well, but i don't even remember (it's been a while!)

thanks tp4tissue, will check it out!

I know what you mean, it's annoying. My thumb is relatively long apparently, so I touch the "sniper"-button I believe it is? on the g502 as well accidentally. Pff

U mean the "n00b-camper" button. ?

That one yeah :P

Went to the store today to feel the g502 in mah hand. It feels smaller than my avior 7000. To be honest, it feels extremely crappy. All plastic works a little bit, squeeks a bit. Really weird. REALLY weird. Mouse button left / right uneven. Scroll wheel feels like it comes off a Trust mouse.

Am I doing the feelingz wrong?

Well, the store version is like the promiscuous-village-girl..  So..... I mean, it's been through alot, seen many hands, many rough hands..

Philosophical one: if it cannot withstand being a **** of many, can it withstand actual proper use by one?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 13 April 2016, 15:36:34
Ya'll remember the M-BT58 ?

This was the Go-To for many offices..

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hPp5HEKeL._SX425_.jpg)


It has a very low malfunctioning speed, so pretty much impossible to game with, even though it does do 570hz.

But check this out,  They bothered to COUNTERFEIT this mouse.. hahahahahahah

What's was the point.. vvvvvvvvv


http://www.abclinuxu.cz/blog/Shteffi/2007/5/alzasoft-asi-prodava-falesne-logitechy
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Wed, 13 April 2016, 16:41:05
Ya'll remember the M-BT58 ?

This was the Go-To for many offices..

Show Image
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hPp5HEKeL._SX425_.jpg)



It has a very low malfunctioning speed, so pretty much impossible to game with, even though it does do 570hz.

But check this out,  They bothered to COUNTERFEIT this mouse.. hahahahahahah

What's was the point.. vvvvvvvvv


http://www.abclinuxu.cz/blog/Shteffi/2007/5/alzasoft-asi-prodava-falesne-logitechy

Oh man yeah... those were abundant everywhere. You could not hide from them. They felt relatively decent but I had some jitter with them on some surfaces.

What sensor do they have again?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Wed, 13 April 2016, 17:21:41
i wonder how big the counterfeit industry must be if they even did that mouse.
but maybe it's just because they know some miss the shape, and it was probably relatively easy to counterfeit..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 13 April 2016, 19:50:12
i wonder how big the counterfeit industry must be if they even did that mouse.
but maybe it's just because they know some miss the shape, and it was probably relatively easy to counterfeit..

I just don't see how much extra money they could possibly make by going that route ..

I mean, that mouse, while fine for office work, is still fairly crummy


It happened a long time ago though..  During those times, Dollar vs Yuan was still 1:8 vs the 1:6.3 today...

So I guess even a few extra dollar bump was good..

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Thu, 14 April 2016, 16:44:49
i wonder how big the counterfeit industry must be if they even did that mouse.
but maybe it's just because they know some miss the shape, and it was probably relatively easy to counterfeit..

I just don't see how much extra money they could possibly make by going that route ..

I mean, that mouse, while fine for office work, is still fairly crummy


It happened a long time ago though..  During those times, Dollar vs Yuan was still 1:8 vs the 1:6.3 today...

So I guess even a few extra dollar bump was good..

Do you guys know the brand "Trust"? Basically, it is Logitech, but crappy execution. But almost the same design. THAT is top counterfeit and apparently it works coz that crap is still being sold.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: bocahgundul on Wed, 27 April 2016, 18:14:45
Zowie EC1-A is out of stock anywhere can I get a good mouse recommendation? I palm grip and I don't like g502 because of the akward shape and the heavy weight?


tp4? is the list updated?


Title: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: derpingit on Wed, 27 April 2016, 20:16:00
Your post will be referenced for generations to come . Holly crap! . Good job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 27 April 2016, 21:18:10
Zowie EC1-A is out of stock anywhere can I get a good mouse recommendation? I palm grip and I don't like g502 because of the akward shape and the heavy weight?


tp4? is the list updated?




No the list is not up to date..

Assuming the mouse you're looking at is using one of the sensors above, and that it advertises (no angle snapping/smoothing),   

Then it has a GOOD CHANCE of being performance equivalent.


The issue however is...  We don't really have many ways of testing it.. because most people don't own robotic arms at home..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Thu, 28 April 2016, 21:01:35
The issue however is...  We don't really have many ways of testing it.. because most people don't own robotic arms at home..

Reminds me of this gif someone made of ESReality's benchmarking setup years ago, where a lamp arm and turntable was used.

(http://i.imgur.com/MJGDMCU.gif)

Though I think in reality it wasn't the mouse that moved but rather the turntable.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: bocahgundul on Fri, 29 April 2016, 01:33:17
Your post will be referenced for generations to come . Holly crap! . Good job


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
what? u wot m8?  ???
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Sat, 20 August 2016, 16:05:43
Updated and added a few mice (finalmouse 2015 and Logitech G Pro). I don't have time for a huge update, but since this thread still gets so many views I will start adding mice more frequently until the list is up to date and includes the most important models.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: nugglets on Sun, 21 August 2016, 13:33:43
Updated and added a few mice (finalmouse 2015 and Logitech G Pro). I don't have time for a huge update, but since this thread still gets so many views I will start adding mice more frequently until the list is up to date and includes the most important models.

Really interested in the G Pro. I've always preferred the intellimouse-style shape to Logitech's, but I think I could deal with it for a lightweight 3366 mouse with minimal gimmicks.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Sun, 21 August 2016, 18:53:23
if you want? @Grim Fandango, i could help out a little bit by PMing you some mice and their specs, for example a few of the newly released 3360 mice
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Grim Fandango on Wed, 24 August 2016, 12:49:19
if you want? @Grim Fandango, i could help out a little bit by PMing you some mice and their specs, for example a few of the newly released 3360 mice

Appreciate the help. Everyone is always fee to submit some mice (and specs) that they think should be added to the list. The only real requirement is that the mouse has been tested by the community and some kind of consensus about its performance and quality has been established.

I am aware there are quite a few mice that can be added to the list. There has been a rapid growth in gaming mice that focus on performance as gamers become more aware of the things we discuss here in this thread. Not too long ago this would have been a pretty short list.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 12 October 2016, 08:55:08
This thread should really be stickied.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: keentom on Sun, 27 November 2016, 23:06:57
Hi there

I have a deathadder. When I choose 1000 as polling rate mouserate.exe still detect a value of ~500

I don't know why.
Anyone can help?

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Sun, 27 November 2016, 23:16:32
Hi there

I have a deathadder. When I choose 1000 as polling rate mouserate.exe still detect a value of ~500

I don't know why.
Anyone can help?

I Hope for your sake that your mouse didn't suffer through a power surge like mine did. Looks like a few capacitors were damaged (I don't have the equipment to check) and now the mouse (not a Razer) is stuck on 2k dpi :/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: keentom on Mon, 28 November 2016, 01:34:45
I Hope for your sake that your mouse didn't suffer through a power surge like mine did. Looks like a few capacitors were damaged (I don't have the equipment to check) and now the mouse (not a Razer) is stuck on 2k dpi :/
I uninstalled Synapse and my mouse has nox a polling rate peaks of +1000hz

It works.

Also will unstalling synapse set the dpi to the native DPI?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Mon, 28 November 2016, 01:48:44
I Hope for your sake that your mouse didn't suffer through a power surge like mine did. Looks like a few capacitors were damaged (I don't have the equipment to check) and now the mouse (not a Razer) is stuck on 2k dpi :/
I uninstalled Synapse and my mouse has nox a polling rate peaks of +1000hz

It works.

Also will unstalling synapse set the dpi to the native DPI?

Um, I'm not sure. If you saved a profile to the mouse then you'll probably still have your dpi configuration. Mine lost the ability to save or change profiles after the power surge.

I'm glad you found your answer :thumb:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: keentom on Mon, 28 November 2016, 01:56:03
I had 2 profiles. But none of them was recorded since the mouse was not moving at the same speed. I had to lower windows sensitivity mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: bastian118 on Fri, 02 December 2016, 01:17:08
LOGITECH  G402 is still not in the List. Any reasons ?  :blank: :blank:

Anyway, I decided i'll order this mouse since it fits my budget, my needs (i play fps games) and my taste. As I heard, it's a good mouse. But I just need to know, what are the Limits/Weakness of G402 (especially in terms of Acceleration/Jitter/Prediction) ??   ;)


Another question :
I use windows 7. Are stuff such as MarkC Acceleration Fix really usefull (supposing the mouse is flawless), or is it just a placebo ?  :eek:
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 06 December 2016, 13:57:18
the markC fix does nothing in 99% of the cases. there are a few older games that forced windows acceleration to be on, and for those cases you could install his fix to change the acceleration curve to be linear, meaning no acceleration even if it was turned on.

did you mean G403?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: bastian118 on Wed, 07 December 2016, 03:56:39
Thanks to Bucake for answering about MarkC.

Well, I mean G402, not G403, as the verdict on g402 is still pending since 1 or 2 years ago  :-X


About the G402. I am still waiting for some feedback on the mouse. Even though I know that there are already some knowledgeable people that have done in depth reviews on it. I don't like to add mice to the list without people using and testing them at least for a little while. There has to be enough information out there to say anything useful about it.

I have not answered you question yet about the G402 because Logitech is doing something new/different with the sensor, and I wanted to wait until a few people get their hands on it first. Essentially it uses a AM010 sensor. But they do something with it to increase the tracking speeds it can attain. So far, I have heard some positive and negative things.

From some tests however, it shows that people are able to make the sensor malfunction fairly easily, despite the solution that logitech applied. For now I will not add it to the list in this topic......

Planning to make some additions to the guide:
-Thinking about whether or not adding mice using the AM010 sensor such as the G100S and the G402.
-.......

What about the G402?

Why isnt g402 on this list?

Since the logitech g402 is stil "in testing phase" .......
........ And one last question, so far how are the opinions about the logitech g402, more positive or more negative?


I wont cry if G402 doesnt deserve to be in the list  ;D :D ;D. I just want to know what are the negative aspects of its sensor.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 15 December 2016, 08:48:15
i think they deserve to be on the list. they are "flawless" gaming sensors in the sense that there's no perceivable prediction or acceleration, and perform well enough for gaming for the majority of people.
they are dated by now, though. the AM010 is good, especially the "Gyroscope version", but the new G102 has a better sensor than the G100s, and the 3366 is better than the AM010 + Gyroscope..

nonetheless, they are worthy mentions :-)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Coreda on Sat, 07 January 2017, 23:49:05
Looks like bst has returned from the grave (http://www.overclock.net/t/1240739/bsts-gaming-mouse/3100_20) and is considering making another mouse for his Ninox brand.

After all the controversy, delays and complaints over the first mouse people seem to be surprisingly bullish about his next mouse which most are asking to be based on the WMO (physical) design.

Never did understand the intense love for the WMO design. Must be familiarity.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Mon, 09 January 2017, 13:56:02
Quote from: bst
If the samples are good then the mouse could be coming out in mid-late march.

talking dates..
not learned from the aurora? ^-^

imo, again he has not planned it well enough. he went about it a bit too impulsively and without timely considerations.
the mouse itself won't be anything special, his control again seems to be fairly limited.
but whatever, we'll see how it plays out. if nothing goes wrong and there is at least decent quality control, it could be a good mouse.

the WMO thing i guess is because there have not been (m)any ambidextrous mice with a similar size. most ambidextrous mice are really small / thin / round, while the WMO was relatively bulky for an ambidextrous mouse.


edit: i wonder how his disappearance after the release of the aurora will affect the sales of his new mouse.
many people had issues with the aurora, and a lot of them never received a refund, or other support.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 09 January 2017, 14:14:22
meh.. yet another antiquated obsolete flat mouse..
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Mon, 16 January 2017, 17:34:43
Now of course, nothing can surpass the shape of the WMO so the Avior 7000 is still king in my IMHO, but I'd like to contribute that there may be some issues with the Castor, that I share.

Particularly the left mouse button rattles. It is as if the plastic of the button isn't attached strongly enough to the chassis or the switch. I've been googling this as I was extremely annoyed. Every single time you click there is this small rattle / squeak. And it seems that some overclock members report the same.

And it states that actuation force is VERY light, but I find it almost TWICE as hard as my 4 avior 7000's (yeah I'm addicted to em, yes I have 4). But perhaps that's only the castor I own.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: LooCfur on Tue, 17 January 2017, 16:02:47
Why aren't PMW 3360 mice like the Nixeus Rivel on this list?

Also, this verification nonsense to post is already old, and this is my first post.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Tue, 17 January 2017, 17:34:49
Why aren't PMW 3360 mice like the Nixeus Rivel on this list?

Also, this verification nonsense to post is already old, and this is my first post.

Offtopic, but: welcome to GH!
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: bastian118 on Thu, 19 January 2017, 04:40:19
i think they deserve to be on the list. they are "flawless" gaming sensors in the sense that there's no perceivable prediction or acceleration, and perform well enough for gaming for the majority of people.
they are dated by now, though. the AM010 is good, especially the "Gyroscope version", but the new G102 has a better sensor than the G100s, and the 3366 is better than the AM010 + Gyroscope..

nonetheless, they are worthy mentions :-)

Thank u for your point of view... Btw this is a nice thread.
I just received my G402. It's the first gaming mouse I use, and I alredy feel noticeable difference on accuracy  :))... Really hope I made a reasonable choice.

While awaiting for community's decision on AM010, I'll try it out for some time and will drop here my impressions.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: atarione on Thu, 02 February 2017, 20:29:58
TL:DR

My MLG Sensei finally started to eat it recently and the finish wore off the back making it rather ugly.

after some debate and a going to fry's and finding a rather helpful display of Zowie mice ... I picked up a ZA11 this week...  quite like it so far.. Plug and play ..was sort of surprised to find it doesn't have some big silly software suite..  anyways.. nice palm grip big ol' mouse for my rather large hands

 
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miguel99 on Wed, 10 May 2017, 16:20:09
There is the extremely interesting russian project, called W-mouse, for modifying some popular AVAGO ADNS-sensor-based mouses with incomparable precision and some other extremely advanced functions.

How to do (based on A4tech X-750 model)
http://tavsar.com/W3-mouse.html

Here russian discussion forum with latest news and firmware & software
https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=330808

use googletranslate to read it if have interest.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 10 May 2017, 17:01:58
There is the extremely interesting russian project, called W-mouse, for modifying some popular AVAGO ADNS-sensor-based mouses with incomparable precision and some other extremely advanced functions.

How to do (based on A4tech X-750 model)
http://tavsar.com/W3-mouse.html

Here russian discussion forum with latest news and firmware & software
https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=330808

use googletranslate to read it if have interest.

I still don't understand what they did ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miguel99 on Wed, 10 May 2017, 18:18:08
I still don't understand what they did ?

They have made dream mouse.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 10 May 2017, 22:12:49
I still don't understand what they did ?

They have made dream mouse.

why is it so great though.. what's changed ?
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: rasmusx on Thu, 11 May 2017, 03:46:35
Any reason why Logitech G403 is not on the list? It uses PMW3366 sensor.
It is a great mouse. Nothing really bad to say about it :)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Bucake on Thu, 11 May 2017, 09:09:52
there hasn't been an update since august, so yeah there's plenty missing
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miguel99 on Thu, 11 May 2017, 10:40:55
why is it so great though.. what's changed ?

1. Extreme precision due to more precise assembling
2. Dynamic DPI - adjustable lowering DPI at hand speed-down in the end of movement - for dead shots in RPG; sometimes it was led to ban for cheating.
3. Advanced calibrating features with adoption to surface parameters
4. 6 Profiles for free
5. Free SW for geeks
Here about some settings http://people.overclockers.ru/Walkie/14127/Wcontrol_Programma_nastrojki_W-mouse/
Everybody who have tried it found it the best
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: whentheclouds on Thu, 11 May 2017, 11:05:34
can you give us some more info about it, such as sensor, shape, weight, etc. also would appreciate some english links if possible
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miguel99 on Thu, 11 May 2017, 11:52:17
can you give us some more info about it, such as sensor, shape, weight, etc. also would appreciate some english links if possible

It's only russian project, like C400 and C500 :D
The only Eng link I know
http://www.overclock.net/t/1384108/project-w-mouse (topic created by one of russian pioneers of Wmouse)

You can retrofit any donor with indicated sensors - any shape, any weight..any....any... On overclock You can find  DeathAdder retrofitting story in English.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 11 May 2017, 14:25:25
why is it so great though.. what's changed ?

1. Extreme precision due to more precise assembling
2. Dynamic DPI - adjustable lowering DPI at hand speed-down in the end of movement - for dead shots in RPG; sometimes it was led to ban for cheating.
3. Advanced calibrating features with adoption to surface parameters
4. 6 Profiles for free
5. Free SW for geeks
Here about some settings http://people.overclockers.ru/Walkie/14127/Wcontrol_Programma_nastrojki_W-mouse/
Everybody who have tried it found it the best


How does this work though ?

Do mice have focus compensation or is it fixed?


if it's fixed, then the Precision does nothing, because the weight of your hand is enough to change the distance by more than half a millimeter.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Thu, 11 May 2017, 14:34:12
why is it so great though.. what's changed ?

1. Extreme precision due to more precise assembling
2. Dynamic DPI - adjustable lowering DPI at hand speed-down in the end of movement - for dead shots in RPG; sometimes it was led to ban for cheating.
3. Advanced calibrating features with adoption to surface parameters
4. 6 Profiles for free
5. Free SW for geeks
Here about some settings http://people.overclockers.ru/Walkie/14127/Wcontrol_Programma_nastrojki_W-mouse/
Everybody who have tried it found it the best


How does this work though ?

Do mice have focus compensation or is it fixed?


if it's fixed, then the Precision does nothing, because the weight of your hand is enough to change the distance by more than half a millimeter.

A quick google search for w-mouse brings up pictures of modded Sentey Rev Pros or clones of the Sentey Rev Pro. ADNS9800 sensor :/
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: miguel99 on Thu, 11 May 2017, 14:51:20
How does this work though ?
Do mice have focus compensation or is it fixed?
if it's fixed, then the Precision does nothing, because the weight of your hand is enough to change the distance by more than half a millimeter.
Sensor has the fixed focus, but mouse producer don't pay too much attention to adjust sensor-lens as exactly as diy-masters, because PCB soldered in automatic lines. The lens, at least it A4tech X-750, IS NOT FIXED (imaging floating lens in fotos). With W-mouse FW you can see picture from sensor.
FOR HAND - Focus is rather analog than digital 1/0 (See everytning/See nothing). So slight unfocusing is not very critical - every sensor has tolerances.
But exact focusing becomes critical in quick sniping in RPGs.

And how work focused and unfocused system You can see in any fotos.

How W-MOUSE works exactly You should asks project W-mouse founders and programmer.
Use links, read them with Googletranslate, DIY and try it yourself.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 17 May 2017, 18:13:27
Any reason why Logitech G403 is not on the list? It uses PMW3366 sensor.
It is a great mouse. Nothing really bad to say about it :)
Apparently, the list hasn't been updated since the G403 was released.

I agree about the G403. I am using it now, and it's a keeper. I've now tested around 20 mice, and generally I have not liked the Logitech gaming mice. However, the G403 has been on my list for some time, based on recommendations that I've seen on GH and DT, and based on reviews by Rocket Jump Ninja.

Usually, I prefer large mice for my palm grip, and so I hesitated to try the G403 because it was one of the smaller ones on my list. Finally, I gave it a try a few days ago, and I liked it instantly. This surprised me because of its size, but the shape feels just right. Another surprise is that I liked its relatively light weight. Another plus is that the surface does not feel sticky after using it for a while -- a drawback of many mice I have tested. The scroll wheel is also nice and quiet with just the right amount of tactile feedback.

The G403 glide, buttons, lighting, software, and cable are all fine. It has an optional extra 10 gram weight held in place magnetically -- this is okay, but I am either indifferent or negative about extra weights.

I also value aesthetics -- this is the most subjective criterion of all, but I still think the Razer DA Elite is the best-looking mouse. However, I regard the G403 as a close second.

Overall, the G403 is one of the best mice I have tested. It joins my other keepers, which include the Razer DA Elite and SS Rival 300.

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Thu, 18 May 2017, 00:49:56
Any reason why Logitech G403 is not on the list? It uses PMW3366 sensor.
It is a great mouse. Nothing really bad to say about it :)
Apparently, the list hasn't been updated since the G403 was released.

I agree about the G403. I am using it now, and it's a keeper. I've now tested around 20 mice, and generally I have not liked the Logitech gaming mice. However, the G403 has been on my list for some time, based on recommendations that I've seen on GH and DT, and based on reviews by Rocket Jump Ninja.

Usually, I prefer large mice for my palm grip, and so I hesitated to try the G403 because it was one of the smaller ones on my list. Finally, I gave it a try a few days ago, and I liked it instantly. This surprised me because of its size, but the shape feels just right. Another surprise is that I liked its relatively light weight. Another plus is that the surface does not feel sticky after using it for a while -- a drawback of many mice I have tested. The scroll wheel is also nice and quiet with just the right amount of tactile feedback.

The G403 glide, buttons, lighting, software, and cable are all fine. It has an optional extra 10 gram weight held in place magnetically -- this is okay, but I am either indifferent or negative about extra weights.

I also value aesthetics -- this is the most subjective criterion of all, but I still think the Razer DA Elite is the best-looking mouse. However, I regard the G403 as a close second.

Overall, the G403 is one of the best mice I have tested. It joins my other keepers, which include the Razer DA Elite and SS Rival 300.

Rocket Jump Ninja is afaik one of the few people to address tilt slam issues. Just thought I would throw in that fact for folks that have sensor spin out while browsing the web and other mundane tasks like I do. G403 is on my list for sure
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 18 May 2017, 01:11:50
Any reason why Logitech G403 is not on the list? It uses PMW3366 sensor.
It is a great mouse. Nothing really bad to say about it :)
Apparently, the list hasn't been updated since the G403 was released.

I agree about the G403. I am using it now, and it's a keeper. I've now tested around 20 mice, and generally I have not liked the Logitech gaming mice. However, the G403 has been on my list for some time, based on recommendations that I've seen on GH and DT, and based on reviews by Rocket Jump Ninja.

Usually, I prefer large mice for my palm grip, and so I hesitated to try the G403 because it was one of the smaller ones on my list. Finally, I gave it a try a few days ago, and I liked it instantly. This surprised me because of its size, but the shape feels just right. Another surprise is that I liked its relatively light weight. Another plus is that the surface does not feel sticky after using it for a while -- a drawback of many mice I have tested. The scroll wheel is also nice and quiet with just the right amount of tactile feedback.

The G403 glide, buttons, lighting, software, and cable are all fine. It has an optional extra 10 gram weight held in place magnetically -- this is okay, but I am either indifferent or negative about extra weights.

I also value aesthetics -- this is the most subjective criterion of all, but I still think the Razer DA Elite is the best-looking mouse. However, I regard the G403 as a close second.

Overall, the G403 is one of the best mice I have tested. It joins my other keepers, which include the Razer DA Elite and SS Rival 300.

Rocket Jump Ninja is afaik one of the few people to address tilt slam issues. Just thought I would throw in that fact for folks that have sensor spin out while browsing the web and other mundane tasks like I do. G403 is on my list for sure

It shouldn't JUMP !

It would skip a bit, but I've never seen any longer distance jumps.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: keybone on Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:00:03
Would love to see a mention of wireless gaming mice. Even if it's a statement how useless they are (and I'm not saying they are). I simply know they a thing, and curious to know how they hold up in a game context. Esp wrt to lag, and polling.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: csmertx on Wed, 16 August 2017, 08:59:30
Would love to see a mention of wireless gaming mice. Even if it's a statement how useless they are (and I'm not saying they are). I simply know they a thing, and curious to know how they hold up in a game context. Esp wrt to lag, and polling.

Until the op is updated here is another resource you may or may not want to browse. http://www.rocketjumpninja.com/logitech-g403-review/ (http://www.rocketjumpninja.com/logitech-g403-review/)

That's not the only wireless mouse that Zy reviewed I only posted that as an example. Some reviews are sponsored but from what I've seen and read Zy will find a mouse's weakness if there is one regardless if the video is sponsored or not. Call me a fanboy if you want.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. IIRC from my Quake 1 play/create phase (1998 - Grade 8 ), Zy's Rocket Jump Ninja alt moniker probably refers to a thing people did with the 'rocket launcher' to reach secret areas easier. They (including my older bro) called it 'rocket jumping' well before Quake 3. It's probably an old nickname that adapted well to the newer Quake 3 and Quake Champions with level layouts attuned for the activity.
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Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: Darthbaggins on Thu, 21 September 2017, 13:55:24
So far I'm a big fan on the Zowie EC1-A (have the standard and the Special Edition White), close second would be my Fnatic Flick G1 or my Gigabyte XM300 (Deathadder Clone - uses the same 3988 sensor)
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: iLLucionist on Sun, 08 October 2017, 09:40:26
Would love to see a mention of wireless gaming mice. Even if it's a statement how useless they are (and I'm not saying they are). I simply know they a thing, and curious to know how they hold up in a game context. Esp wrt to lag, and polling.

For instance, the G403 wireless.. Damm dat mouse is good.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: pRopaaNS on Sat, 25 August 2018, 07:48:32
Hi, My Logitech G100s mouse button problem is coming to breaking point. I've been patient with it, have opened it up 2 times already to straigthten the spring. It's garbage. Looking to buy new mouse right now.

I think the list needs to specify which Steelseries Rival model. I looked into Steelseries Rival 100 and it have different sensor. (https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-100)

Btw I keep doubleclicking things as I make this post. When I registered just before, it said that username is already taken, because it registered registration button multiple times right there.
Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 25 August 2018, 09:07:36
Hi, My Logitech G100s mouse button problem is coming to breaking point. I've been patient with it, have opened it up 2 times already to straigthten the spring. It's garbage. Looking to buy new mouse right now.

I think the list needs to specify which Steelseries Rival model. I looked into Steelseries Rival 100 and it have different sensor. (https://steelseries.com/gaming-mice/rival-100)

Btw I keep doubleclicking things as I make this post. When I registered just before, it said that username is already taken, because it registered registration button multiple times right there.

Solder in a new switch.. G100s is top mouse. !!

Mod thread here.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81366.0

Title: Re: Mouse Guide 2.0: A list of mice with superior sensors and more.
Post by: pRopaaNS on Sat, 25 August 2018, 13:43:52
Solder in a new switch.. G100s is top mouse. !!

Mod thread here.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81366.0
Maybe when I learn soldering. And how and where to get new switches from.

Plugged in my old A4Tech X7. The G100S mouse button stopped responding completely. Now I'm stuck with mouse that have very glitchy mouse wheel and very hard right mouse button. edit: and contact disappearing randomly